View Full Version : Yankees 2005's worst defensive team - new book
http://www.athomeplate.com/yankeesdef.shtml
There are several articles about this book, "The Fielding Bible" by John Dewan online, this is just one example.
From the article:
The Yankees defense ranked 27th in 2003, and 30th in 2004 and 2005.
"The decision to put Rodriguez at third is indicative of how unimportant defense is to the Yankees. ARod is less effective as a third basemen in general, but it's more mind-boggling that he was a top five shortstop and they moved him in favor of the worst defensive shortstop over the past three seasons."
Now I know that criticizing Jeter's defense is an unpardonable sin, but has anyone actually read this book yet? I'm really interested in reading it. One other article mentioned that at least three Yankees (Bernie, Jeter and Sheff) ranked last at their positions in 2005.
I am familiar with the methods they use, and I can't fathom how they can quantify all that data.
i knew jeter was a below avg ss but the worst? wow
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-16-06, 11:46 AM
Jeter is a horrible defender but he looks real pretty...
njdhockey
04-16-06, 11:51 AM
Interesting stuff. I also bought into the offense is more important than defense theory that was in Moneyball but this seems like a legitimate book. Has anyone here read it?
Yankeeah
04-16-06, 11:54 AM
I know people don't like Jeters defense too much, but the worst SS in baseball? Isn't that a little extreme?
I know people don't like Jeters defense too much, but the worst SS in baseball? Isn't that a little extreme?
It's not extreme if it reality. His range is really bad. He does make up for it a bit with his cutoff ability, and accuracy.
BronxByTheBay
04-16-06, 12:02 PM
Now I know that criticizing Jeter's defense is an unpardonable sin
Yeah, God knows it's never been done by any forumer here.
Yeah, God knows it's never been done by any forumer here.
LOL, I know what you mean. I was just trying to keep the discussion about the book's analysis of the Yankees' fielding, and not about one player.
P.S. Neither of my local county libraries has it, so I'll have to buy this one sight unseen.
His lack of range has been incredibly apparent to me this year specifically. Every single slow grounder up the middle, and he does his patented stumble then watches it skip into center.
chanman7483
04-17-06, 11:17 AM
What can this lack of range be attributed to? The guy is fast, seems to have good reflexes, and is athletic, so I don't think his lateral movements could be that bad. I don't think it's a reaction time thing either, because he seems to react well to pitches thrown at him(pitches that are moving, and breaking), as evidenced by his great batting average, so I'd assume the same would be applicable to his reaction to balls off the bat. I'm not saying he's a good defender, I'd just like to know what you guys think the reason is behind all of this is.
RhodyYanksFan
04-17-06, 11:37 AM
I totally buy the fact that Sheff & Bernie were the worst at their positions, but Jeter is not the worst SS in the game. Did he deserve the Gold Glove - no, but he's not the worst. Renteria had the most errors of anyone in baseball. Oakland had replacement players at SS for half the season.
PoughVirginiaYankee
04-17-06, 11:37 AM
It's not extreme if it reality. His range is really bad. He does make up for it a bit with his cutoff ability, and accuracy.
Yes, I completely agree with you that claiming Jeter is the worst def. SS is not extreme if it is the reality. However, as an earlier poster mentioned, I too would like to know what defensive statistics they used in order to compile their ratings which placed Jeter dead last. If it's the truth, according to their statistics (and if their ratings hold water), then so be it.
But I would sincerely question the validity of that statement until shown proof.
PoughVirginiaYankee
04-17-06, 11:43 AM
Furthermore, apparently according to the same ratings, Damon was rated 30th last year. Hmmm?? I mean, he's definitely not fantastic - but 30th. They don't mention if these ratings only used 1 player from each position for each team...but if they did...that would have placed Damon dead last, last year. How is that possible?
DaBomber25
04-17-06, 11:45 AM
Furthermore, apparently according to the same ratings, Damon was rated 30th last year. Hmmm?? I mean, he's definitely not fantastic - but 30th. They don't mention if these ratings only used 1 player from each position for each team...but if they did...that would have placed Damon dead last, last year. How is that possible?
How could they have Damon and Bernie both be the worst CFers?
EDIT: I'm dumb. Nevermind.
Furthermore, apparently according to the same ratings, Damon was rated 30th last year. Hmmm?? I mean, he's definitely not fantastic - but 30th. They don't mention if these ratings only used 1 player from each position for each team...but if they did...that would have placed Damon dead last, last year. How is that possible?
I think I read that they use 500 innings as the minimum, so you could have multiple players at the same position in a season. That also answers the question about Bernie and Damon. I think Bernie was ranked 34th, which was last.
PoughVirginiaYankee
04-17-06, 11:50 AM
How could they have Damon and Bernie both be the worst CFers?
Sorry...I misread the article...it reads...
Johnny Damon’s average ranking in the last three years was 19th, but that was with a 23rd and 30th ranking the last two seasons.
I don't know if they rated him 30th last year, or the year before. Point still stands though...if its only out of 30, how the heck could Damon have been last?
effdamets
04-17-06, 11:52 AM
Come on people....
Let's try to use a little logic... What is the most populous city in America? New York. What is their most popular team? The Yankees. How do you sell books? Write negative things about something popular. And if you put that together with a bazillion fans, and half of them buy the book because negativity sells, then you've sold half a bazillion books.
So, scraping the bottom of the barrel for stats that make the Yankees look as if they're the worst defenders is going to sell books for this yah-hoo.
Whatever.
PoughVirginiaYankee
04-17-06, 11:53 AM
I think I read that they use 500 innings as the minimum, so you could have multiple players at the same position in a season. That also answers the question about Bernie and Damon. I think Bernie was ranked 34th, which was last.
Ahhh ok. Thanks for the info.
yankeesAZ
04-17-06, 11:56 AM
Where does Manny rank as a LF?
So, scraping the bottom of the barrel for stats that make the Yankees look as if they're the worst defenders is going to sell books for this yah-hoo.
To be fair, he sells this info to teams, and about half of them buy it. He just decided to sell it to the public this year.
The "yah-hoo" is also the founder of STATS, Inc. which, I believe, was one of the official statistical services of MLB.
Jete&Tino42
04-17-06, 03:53 PM
Where does Manny rank as a LF?
He's not even on the radar.
And Jeter as the worst SS in the game? Come on now. He's not the best by any means, but he's not the worst.
ryanm1058123
04-17-06, 04:08 PM
what i've been trying to say to a million people for the past couple years. they won't believe me. he's not the worst imo but he has AWFUL range. He's not none up the middle. at all.
Dog Named Fred
04-17-06, 05:27 PM
Has anyone read the book? Does it have any kind of analysis on what the difference is b/w the Yankees and other teams, looked over the course of a season and tried to figure out how many runs or wins this actually cost the team? Seems to me this is much ado about next to nothing particularly considering where the Yankees rank on offense per position.
I'll check the book out, but I have yet to see one defensive stat that can be used as "the bible". I think that some people need to realize that not every aspect of the game can be quantified.
Bloodshot
04-27-06, 07:57 AM
They posted an article on this over at Baseball America:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/features/261130.html
How did they create these ratings?
Employees reviewed video from every major league game last year and recorded data from every ball put in play, including direction, distance, speed and type of hit (groundball, liner, fly, bunt, etc.).
So a player gets credit if he makes a play on a ball that at least one other player at his position missed that season, and loses ground if he misses a ball that at least one other player at his position made. Each player starts with a score of zero, and his final score is the sum of all their plusses and minuses over the season, rounded to the nearest integer.
A couple of quotes:
The worst [center fielder]? Bernie Williams--and it's not even close--with a score of minus-78. The second-worst was Ken Griffey Jr. at minus-58.
Jeter rated as a minus-18 to his right and a minus-25 to his left in 2005; he was a plus-5 on balls in the air and a plus-1 on all slowly hit balls. Over the past three years, Jeter had a higher rating than any other shortstop on balls in the air, which provides ammunition for the talk of Jeter moving to center field. (For other intriguing player ratings, see the accompanying chart.)
Mr. Mxylsplk
04-27-06, 10:26 AM
Rating Jeter as the worst SS seems a bit much to me, but he's pretty clearly not that great, and I do think the general argument that the yanks pay very very little attention to defense in constructing their team is pretty obvious. That's not a particularly meaningful fact though, if the offensive cost of better defense outweighs that defense. (Well, except for the left side of our infield).
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