View Full Version : Boss knocks WBC
JeffWeaverFan
02-16-06, 04:40 PM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spboss0217,0,3640389.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines
George Steinbrenner made his first public appearance of spring training an eventful one, speaking out against the World Baseball Classic this afternoon.
"We don't like it that well," Steinbrenner said. "If a player gets hurt, he's risking a lot. It was [Bud] Selig's idea and he wants to do it, so I suppose we're going to do it."
I'm with George 100%.
Good for George. Some other owners should step up and voice their opinions on this. I can't imagine there are too many in love with the idea of this tournament.
Yup. He is 100% correct...unless the WBC wants to insure the players' salaries...
YankClipper5
02-16-06, 04:46 PM
Amen George! Speak out against Selig, take his WBC nonsense to November!
JeffWeaverFan
02-16-06, 05:01 PM
It's really the dumbest idea ever. What other sport would allow a tournament right before the season starts?
fredgmuggs
02-16-06, 05:11 PM
It's really the dumbest idea ever. What other sport would allow a tournament right before the season starts?
It's not before the season.... but how about the NHL, their players are playing in the Olympics right now during their season.
JeffWeaverFan
02-16-06, 05:18 PM
It's not before the season.... but how about the NHL, their players are playing in the Olympics right now during their season.
Yeah, it's right before the players report. That's what I meant.
As for the NHL, it's during the season so all the players are in playing shape. Now, ballplayers nowadays are not like the players of yesterday and usually come into ST in pretty good shape, but I still hate the idea of this with the guys not in playing shape. Especially for a pitcher.
I just don't understand why they don't make this thing in November.
obsessedyankeefan
02-16-06, 05:30 PM
He's 100% right. Kudos to him! :clap:
hardrain
02-16-06, 05:33 PM
atta boy, George.... I hope we hear a lot out of you this Spring...it makes things more interesting.
AndThenThereWasTino
02-16-06, 05:41 PM
Way to go boss. Couldn't agree more.
Boogiedown Bomber
02-16-06, 06:01 PM
for once, the Boss says something of use.
BroadwayBomber55
02-16-06, 06:21 PM
Way to go Boss ahem Mr. Steinbrenner. IMHO, they should've done the WBC after the World Series every 4-8 years. The WBC is a risky idea.
bagger015
02-16-06, 07:25 PM
The WBC is prime BS and if played at all it should be after the season is over when the players are all in shape...........less likelyhood of getting injured.......:P
bmorebamma
02-16-06, 07:39 PM
YOU GO GEORGE beacuse IF a single player gets hurt playing these games IAM HOLDING BUD PERSONALLY RESPONISBLE. amen and amen
DiMaggio5CF
02-16-06, 07:50 PM
Not that I like to see anyone get hurt, but I'm almost rooting for a big player to get seriously hurt.
Everybody is so gung-ho about the WBC.
What if Johan Santana throws his arm out, goes down for the season, and the Minnesota Twins chances of making the playoffs are squashed before Opening Day?
What if A.J. Burnett , and the Blue Jays' brand-new big-money acquisition never, ever throws a pitch for their team?
Sure, it could happen just as easily in Spring Training, but in Spring Training you're not expected to push yourself to the point where you could get injured. And if you're working out with/for your team, then you can take it as a bad break. But if you're on the field busting it for someone other than the guy who pays your salary, then that's an unneccesary risk.
Honestly, even if it's the same injury to the same player, and there's no way that it would have been avoided anyway, it's a part of the game if it happens in your team's camp and unneccessary if it happens elsewhere. That's just the way it is, IMO.
EDIT: If I bring home my new PS2, step on a chord, knock it to the floor and break it, I'm going to be bummed, but it will go down as ................ happens. If you take it to your house, even if you handle it exactly the same way that I would have, if you break it, I'm going to be severely pissed.
It's basically the same thing in this situation. All Big Stein is saying is "don't break my toy."
MassNYYfan
02-16-06, 09:20 PM
Amen, George!! Eff this WBC crap. :mad:
NewEraYanks2527
02-16-06, 09:49 PM
Bravo Geoge, that is why you are our fearless leader. BRAVO!
dabomb2045
02-16-06, 10:01 PM
Yeah, it's right before the players report. That's what I meant.
As for the NHL, it's during the season so all the players are in playing shape. Now, ballplayers nowadays are not like the players of yesterday and usually come into ST in pretty good shape, but I still hate the idea of this with the guys not in playing shape. Especially for a pitcher.
I just don't understand why they don't make this thing in November.
actually I think its MUCH more risky sending the NHL players to the Olympics in the middle of the season....then having the WBC before baseball season starts.
If god forbid, a star player on one of the playoff-bound teams went down injured...he could easily miss the rest of the year (even if the injury isnt that serious), since its already February.
At least if a baseball player does get hurt in this tournament....unless its really serious, chances are he will play most of the season.
LuckyLopez
02-16-06, 10:26 PM
Sure, it could happen just as easily in Spring Training, but in Spring Training you're not expected to push yourself to the point where you could get injured.
Well in all fairness they're not "expected" to push it in the WBC either. In fact the rules are set up to keep them from doing so. Of course that doesn't keep players themselves from pushing it in the name of elements that won't exist during spring training games, such as patriotism, fan support, pride, and peer pressure. And while the expectations aren't in the rules they're going to pop up purely out of the nature of it.
If I bring home my new PS2, step on a chord, knock it to the floor and break it, I'm going to be bummed, but it will go down as ................ happens. If you take it to your house, even if you handle it exactly the same way that I would have, if you break it, I'm going to be severely pissed.
It's basically the same thing in this situation. All Big Stein is saying is "don't break my toy."
I think the problem there is that the players aren't merely commodities who get are getting moved around against their wishes. They're going to the tournament of their own volition. I think that's my major problem with a lot of the complaints. If Jeter goes down in the WBC in a freak accident its not Bud Selig's, Bob Watson's, or Buck Martinez' fault. Jeter's an adult who chose to compete, against the wishes of his employer. And at this stage enough players have decided to not go that it seems like a hard arguement that the pressure was too much. Jeter certainly hasn't come under any more pressure to compete than Rivera or Wang. But he made the decision that they didn't. At that point its on him.
Your metaphor really encompases the logical flaw I see with some of these complaints. Bud didn't take these players away from the owenrs and say "you'll get them back when I'm done." He (along with the rest of baseball and the players' union) set up a tournament and then invited the players. Some accepted, some petitioned, and some declined. And some were even told to stay home by MLB at the request of their teams. But we've just hung onto this idea that these guys are all being forced in by Bud's personal hands.
PonytailAtHome
02-16-06, 11:08 PM
I'm so sick and tired of hearing about all of this WBC stuff. It's driving me crazy.
CalYankeeFan
02-17-06, 06:21 AM
:-werd-:
That said....I agree with George.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing about all of this WBC stuff. It's driving me crazy.
DaPip1998
02-17-06, 08:16 AM
If they really want to do this, what about doing it during an "extended" All-Star Break (maybe 7-10 days instead of 3) and playing a short form round robin tournament?
The players are already in game shape, limit pitchers to 3 innings (like the A/S game) and it's pretty easy to make up the extra missed games (like maybe, playing on Labor Day for once!!!).
But before the season is a joke-no one, especially pitchers, are even close to being ready physically.
I am not a fan of the WBC.
BRNXBMRS
02-17-06, 10:36 AM
The whole WBC is a waste of time, MLB already has the best players from the world playing against each other. I am glad The Boss is the only owner that has a sack. Gammons was talking this morning on 1050 saying that if the WBC is played in the future, the best way to do it is to shorten the season and take a week off in July instead of plaing the All Star game. This way the players will already be in game ready shape.
BillBuckner
02-17-06, 10:37 AM
I dont like MLB having it in the middle of Spring Training. There is not only the risk of injury, but I think it will be somewhat of a distraction.
yankeesAZ
02-17-06, 11:09 AM
If one of out players get hurt, Mt Steinbrenner will explode with devestating force.
27IsNext
02-17-06, 11:28 AM
If one of out players get hurt, Mt Steinbrenner will explode with devestating force.
Now THAT will be funny.
DiMaggio5CF
02-17-06, 11:39 AM
Well in all fairness they're not "expected" to push it in the WBC either. In fact the rules are set up to keep them from doing so. Of course that doesn't keep players themselves from pushing it in the name of elements that won't exist during spring training games, such as patriotism, fan support, pride, and peer pressure. And while the expectations aren't in the rules they're going to pop up purely out of the nature of it.
So then what is the point of the WBC?
To see which nation is the best in the world at sort of trying but not really trying?
The whole thing just boggles my mind.
effdamets
02-17-06, 11:44 AM
Good for George. Some other owners should step up and voice their opinions on this. I can't imagine there are too many in love with the idea of this tournament.
You would think this is true... But, when they took a vote in August of last year, The Yankees and George Steinbrenner were the only team not to vote in favor of the tournament. The Yankees abstained.
I am dead against this stupid Selig money grab. If a player gets hurt, he runs the risk of voiding his major league contract because the club they are contracted to, the insurance policy on that contract, probably isn't covered because they were not playing for the team mentioned in the contract. That's what has to happen (no, I am not hoping for it to happen to anyone) for Selig to understand that this tournament is dopey.
If something like this does happen, you can be pretty sure you will see two things. Players are not going to be as willing to participate, and owners will start building "no WBC" clauses into contracts.
iWant27
02-17-06, 12:51 PM
I agree with him . I just wished Jeter , Damon and A-Rod should have declined to play in this tournament .
dabomb2045
02-17-06, 12:52 PM
Like I said, if the owners want someone to blame....look in the mirror. If they were all against it, all they had to do was vote it down
LuckyLopez
02-17-06, 01:25 PM
So then what is the point of the WBC?
To see which nation is the best in the world at sort of trying but not really trying?
The whole thing just boggles my mind.
Well, the idea is that there's some mid point between "all out, leave everything on the field" and "lackadaisacal spring training esque play." For the average WBC competitor I'd guess that you won't see the level of effort that you see in a penant race but you see more than you would in the Grapefruit league. Like I said, the players aren't expected to play as high up as they can but those expectations are probably going to present themselves from peer pressure, patriotism, pride, and fan pressure.
I don't know, I don't get the way we're trying to make it all or nothing. You can play hard and still hold something back, and I think that's what we're talking about here. I certainly don't think such a thing is unimaginable. I also don't think such a thing is a waste to watch. Some players are going to play harder than others and as the tournament goes deeper I imagine you'll see most players start to play harder. A starter in the 1st round will probably be more reserved than in the semifinals. And from a team's interest you're more comfortable with it being a progressive increase even if you don't like it at all.
I have no problem with fans being worried about their players hurting themselves or anything like that. It makes sense. To some extent I feel that way too and that's why I'm glad Rivera, Wang, and Johnson aren't going. I just think we're going overboard when people act like
(a) the players are indentured servants being forced into this and taken away from their teams, rather than just going on their own decision.
(b) there's NOTHING compelling about this from any logical standpoint. I can certainly appreciate if some fans are interested and others not but there's some basic elements at play that I'd think people should at least be able to see as reasons why some are interested.
Well, the idea is that there's some mid point between "all out, leave everything on the field" and "lackadaisacal spring training esque play." For the average WBC competitor I'd guess that you won't see the level of effort that you see in a penant race but you see more than you would in the Grapefruit league. Like I said, the players aren't expected to play as high up as they can but those expectations are probably going to present themselves from peer pressure, patriotism, pride, and fan pressure.
I don't know, I don't get the way we're trying to make it all or nothing. You can play hard and still hold something back, and I think that's what we're talking about here. I certainly don't think such a thing is unimaginable. I also don't think such a thing is a waste to watch. Some players are going to play harder than others and as the tournament goes deeper I imagine you'll see most players start to play harder. A starter in the 1st round will probably be more reserved than in the semifinals. And from a team's interest you're more comfortable with it being a progressive increase even if you don't like it at all.
I kind of agree with DiMaggio on this. I don't think the concept of sort-of competing makes much sense, it sounds like holding a 100 meter jogging race. If you are really trying to win, then you play as best you can to win. If you aren't really trying to win then it isn't a competition, its just some form of spectator entertainment, like pro-wrestling or something. They might as well just fix the games and then likely no one gets injured.
Practice, such as spring training, is a completely different thing and it has its own desired result. Whereas regular season baseball has the goal of competing to win and entertainment tries to entertain people, practice exists solely to hone skills to increase the chance of winning when regular season starts. You can't really have half game-intensity and half practice intensity, they are different things and the concept doesn't make sense.
DiMaggio5CF
02-17-06, 03:05 PM
I don't know, I don't get the way we're trying to make it all or nothing. You can play hard and still hold something back, and I think that's what we're talking about here. I certainly don't think such a thing is unimaginable. I also don't think such a thing is a waste to watch. Some players are going to play harder than others and as the tournament goes deeper I imagine you'll see most players start to play harder. A starter in the 1st round will probably be more reserved than in the semifinals. And from a team's interest you're more comfortable with it being a progressive increase even if you don't like it at all.
I'm not trying to make it all-or-nothing. I'm just trying to understand why it means anything at all if you win a championship in a tournament in which everyone sort of tried a little.
StatenIslandYankee
02-17-06, 03:07 PM
Thank You George!!!
JeffWeaverFan
02-17-06, 03:18 PM
actually I think its MUCH more risky sending the NHL players to the Olympics in the middle of the season....then having the WBC before baseball season starts.
If god forbid, a star player on one of the playoff-bound teams went down injured...he could easily miss the rest of the year (even if the injury isnt that serious), since its already February.
At least if a baseball player does get hurt in this tournament....unless its really serious, chances are he will play most of the season.
That's true but these guys aren't in playing shape so the chances of tweaking or pulling something increase.
I also don't like the Olympic break in the NHL and think that NHL players should not be participating.
SoCal Pinstriper
02-17-06, 03:18 PM
.
I just don't understand why they don't make this thing in November.Because they don't want to compete with the NFL. Their only conflict is with NCAA hoops, and they've scheduled pretty much around that.
SoCal Pinstriper
02-17-06, 03:19 PM
.
I also don't like the Olympic break in the NHL and think that NHL players should not be participating.The NHL is desperate.
PlsDontTearDownY.S.
02-17-06, 04:48 PM
I like the WBC concept, but I can't knock Stein for taking a shot at Selig. He deserves to get knocked for scheduling it before the season if nothing else, even though it probably wouldn't make a difference to GS.
C-BUS CLIPPER
02-17-06, 05:06 PM
THE BOSS is right!!! You the man George! End the "Bud Selig Classic" now!
YankeePride1967
02-17-06, 05:14 PM
It's not before the season.... but how about the NHL, their players are playing in the Olympics right now during their season.
One HUGE difference. If it's 20 degrees and snowing outside, you can play hockey, if it is 80 out and sunny you can play hockey (and baseball). Extending the baseball by 2 weeks means starting it in mid-March or ending in mid Novenber. Not gonna happen.
YankeePride1967
02-17-06, 05:17 PM
Well in all fairness they're not "expected" to push it in the WBC either. In fact the rules are set up to keep them from doing so. Of course that doesn't keep players themselves from pushing it in the name of elements that won't exist during spring training games, such as patriotism, fan support, pride, and peer pressure. And while the expectations aren't in the rules they're going to pop up purely out of the nature of it.
I think the problem there is that the players aren't merely commodities who get are getting moved around against their wishes. They're going to the tournament of their own volition. I think that's my major problem with a lot of the complaints. If Jeter goes down in the WBC in a freak accident its not Bud Selig's, Bob Watson's, or Buck Martinez' fault. Jeter's an adult who chose to compete, against the wishes of his employer. And at this stage enough players have decided to not go that it seems like a hard arguement that the pressure was too much. Jeter certainly hasn't come under any more pressure to compete than Rivera or Wang. But he made the decision that they didn't. At that point its on him.
Your metaphor really encompases the logical flaw I see with some of these complaints. Bud didn't take these players away from the owenrs and say "you'll get them back when I'm done." He (along with the rest of baseball and the players' union) set up a tournament and then invited the players. Some accepted, some petitioned, and some declined. And some were even told to stay home by MLB at the request of their teams. But we've just hung onto this idea that these guys are all being forced in by Bud's personal hands.
No the rules are not set up to prevent injuries. Yes, the SP is limited to 50 pitches (as they would be in ST) but in ST, they would likely not throw many breaking pitches early on. THey also would not be pitching with any intensity. Get the work in, go to the shower, day over. Now put the country on the back of the uniform and David Ortiz is in the batter's box and I absolutely guarantee you Jake Peavy is not going to be "getting his work in". THis notion that there is no higher risk of an injury in the WBC than ST is nonsense. The intensity is different that alone makes the comparison wrong.
YankeePride1967
02-17-06, 05:20 PM
I have no problem with fans being worried about their players hurting themselves or anything like that. It makes sense. To some extent I feel that way too and that's why I'm glad Rivera, Wang, and Johnson aren't going. I just think we're going overboard when people act like
(a) the players are indentured servants being forced into this and taken away from their teams, rather than just going on their own decision.
(b) there's NOTHING compelling about this from any logical standpoint. I can certainly appreciate if some fans are interested and others not but there's some basic elements at play that I'd think people should at least be able to see as reasons why some are interested.
I don't have a problem with position players playing in this at all. To me, it just means baseball on the TV in March. To me, whomever "wins" this to me will be as meaningless as the All Star game was pre home-field advantage. I just hate hearing people say that the injury risk is no different in the WBC vs ST. It's not the same. I do think it will bring some excitement though.
LuckyLopez
02-17-06, 05:55 PM
No the rules are not set up to prevent injuries. Yes, the SP is limited to 50 pitches (as they would be in ST) but in ST, they would likely not throw many breaking pitches early on. THey also would not be pitching with any intensity. Get the work in, go to the shower, day over. Now put the country on the back of the uniform and David Ortiz is in the batter's box and I absolutely guarantee you Jake Peavy is not going to be "getting his work in". THis notion that there is no higher risk of an injury in the WBC than ST is nonsense. The intensity is different that alone makes the comparison wrong.
The rules are set up to decrease the risk of injury. Technically, they're not being asked to go out any more than usual. But of course that's not a realistic interpretation. Its going to be a competitive tournament with pride on the line so the drive is going to be there. I was basically just arguing semantics in that somewhere along the line it becomes the individual player who makes that call.
I'm completely agreed that there's a greater chance of injury in the WBC than in spring training. Its apples and oranges. One is a competitive tournament and one is practice. I think the idea of "not being ready" is a LITTLE overblown because the logical conclusion I came to is that if players are expecting to be playing competitive ball 2 or 3 weeks ahead of schedule than they should start training 2 or 3 weeks ahead of schedule. To me the big risk isn't that they'll get hurt in the WBC (although its certainly a possability) but rather that they'll have started their entire season early and thus will wind down quicker. That's why I'm all for young, old, and hurt pitchers skipping this thing all together. While I (as a WBC fan) think Wang would have been a great boon to this I (as a Yankee fan) don't want a guy who's being asked to pitch more innings than he ever has and who has a history of shoulder problems (including last season) to start things off early. I'm all for Rivera sitting it out because last season he changed his schedule so that he started his work later than usual. This would have him starting earlier than he did even before last season and that can't be a good thing.
Now if your issue is these players taking on the risk of injury playing for someone other than your team? That's different and understandable. But its at that point that I say "blame the players for making that decision."
I kind of agree with DiMaggio on this. I don't think the concept of sort-of competing makes much sense, it sounds like holding a 100 meter jogging race. If you are really trying to win, then you play as best you can to win. If you aren't really trying to win then it isn't a competition, its just some form of spectator entertainment, like pro-wrestling or something. They might as well just fix the games and then likely no one gets injured.
But you don't think there's a difference in how the average player goes in April and in October? How some Yankees play against the Red Sox or the Tigers? I think you can play to win and still hold something back. Sometimes conciouslly, sometimes not. I'm not expecting half game intensity at all. Well, I suppose I am in some players but on the average I expect guys to be playing to win, with something on the line, but also conscious that there's a bigger picture in play. Wins in April mean the same thing they do September but at the same time a player may make different decisions based on the circumstances. In April do you dive towards the stands or barrel into that runner knowing that if something happens you might have ended your season before it began?
Some players will probably go all out and we might very well end up having a pitcher experience problems because he threw too hard. And I'd guess that some of the less passionate guys might not run out grounders or stretch for that single. But on average I'm expecting a sort of tempered competitive spirit.
YankeePride1967
02-17-06, 05:59 PM
I agree that no one is forcing the players. But my sympathies lie with the owners and GMs of the teams that will be liable to pay their salaries if an injury occurs.
LuckyLopez
02-17-06, 06:26 PM
As far as I sympathize for anyone I agree, but if George ends up hurt by one of his players going down in the WBC I'd like him to get mad at the player not Selig. If A-Rod goes down in a pickup basketball game you get mad at him, not the guy who brought the ball (or some other not very good metaphor).
I'm not trying to make it all-or-nothing. I'm just trying to understand why it means anything at all if you win a championship in a tournament in which everyone sort of tried a little.
Very good point. The whole thing is just an exhibition, like the NBA AllStar Game or the Pro Bowl. It proves nothing. There is very little reason for real fans to watch. I predict it will soon fizzle. Who cares what country a player is from? I respect those who are refusing to play.
PlsDontTearDownY.S.
02-17-06, 09:34 PM
Very good point. The whole thing is just an exhibition, like the NBA AllStar Game or the Pro Bowl. It proves nothing. There is very little reason for real fans to watch. I predict it will soon fizzle. Who cares what country a player is from? I respect those who are refusing to play.
This is different than the Pro Bowl or NBA allstar game. Did you see how crazy the Venezuelan fans went when their squad won the Caribbean world series? The stadium was packed and the fans were into every pitch. There's national pride on the line with the best players playing in this WBC... I think that will motivate real fans and fake fans around the world to to watch. If Selig had scheduled it for after the WS, would you still be as opposed to it as you are?
This is different than the Pro Bowl or NBA allstar game. Did you see how crazy the Venezuelan fans went when their squad won the Caribbean world series? The stadium was packed and the fans were into every pitch. There's national pride on the line with the best players playing... I think that will motivate real fans and fake fans around the world to to watch. If Selig had scheduled it for after the WS, would you still be as opposed to it as you are?
With limits placed on the best players, I disagree. If it were scheduled after the World Series I'd be less against it. However, It will never be held during Football Season.
PlsDontTearDownY.S.
02-17-06, 09:39 PM
With limits placed on the best players, I disagree. If it were scheduled after the World Series I'd be less against it. However, It will never be held during Football Season.
What kind of limits are placed on these guys? Also, football season equals two days a week of major TV coverage. I'm sure they could have figured something out in regards to scheduling the tourney after the WS.
YankeePride1967
02-17-06, 09:48 PM
has Juan Pierre surfaced?
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