View Full Version : Jeter's splits for batting 1st and 2nd?
destiNY
02-13-06, 08:29 PM
Does anyone have Jeter's carrer stats for batting 2nd and 1st? I am wondering what position he batted in the 98-2000, 2003 seasons, his best seasons...?
Does anyone have Jeter's carrer stats for batting 2nd and 1st? I am wondering what position he batted in the 98-2000, 2003 seasons, his best seasons...?I think ESPN or MLB might have that.
destiNY
02-13-06, 08:41 PM
I think ESPN or MLB might have that.
tried espn before the thread and they didn't, ill check mlb now
PaulieIsAwesome
02-13-06, 08:42 PM
tried espn before the thread and they didn't, ill check mlb now
http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Pjeted001.htm
Click on splits for each year of interest, scroll down to see batting when in the order.
destiNY
02-13-06, 08:43 PM
mlb doesnt have it either
tried espn before the thread and they didn't, ill check mlb nowSorry, I'll give it a look after 24 is over :D
destiNY
02-13-06, 08:48 PM
ha thanks, I just tried a few sites off a google search and came up with nothing.
You know what - try the Damon thread (the one when he was signed). There was a lot of debate as to who would be the better leadoff hitter. I'm sure there are some leads in there, some info at the very least.
PaulieIsAwesome
02-13-06, 08:50 PM
ha thanks, I just tried a few sites off a google search and came up with nothing.
And to simplify it, up until 2004, his career numbers at 1 and 2 (his 2 biggest places for hitting in the order):
#1: .320/.389/.482
#2: .314/.387/.466
PaulieIsAwesome
02-13-06, 08:57 PM
And to simplify it, up until 2004, his career numbers at 1 and 2 (his 2 biggest places for hitting in the order):
#1: .320/.389/.482
#2: .314/.387/.466
To throw my own opinion on the matter in, Damon's career hitting 1: .286/.350/.434
He has 263 career steals, versus 74 CS. Jeter has 215 SBs, compared with 57 CS. Anyone really think 40 steals over nearly the same number of games is really worth the falloff from .314/.386/.461 to .290/.353/.431? And Damon's been helped by Fenway for 4 years, and a good hitter's park in Kansas City, while Jeter's been hurt by YS on righties.
destiNY
02-13-06, 08:57 PM
You know what - try the Damon thread (the one when he was signed). There was a lot of debate as to who would be the better leadoff hitter. I'm sure there are some leads in there, some info at the very least.
Great Idea. I got a debate brewing over here...
destiNY
02-13-06, 09:00 PM
To throw my own opinion on the matter in, Damon's career hitting 1: .286/.350/.434
He has 263 career steals, versus 74 CS. Jeter has 215 SBs, compared with 57 CS. Anyone really think 40 steals over nearly the same number of games is really worth the falloff from .314/.386/.461 to .290/.353/.431? And Damon's been helped by Fenway for 4 years, and a good hitter's park in Kansas City, while Jeter's been hurt by YS on righties.
Yeah- I think we'll find out this season. Thanks Paulie.
To throw my own opinion on the matter in, Damon's career hitting 1: .286/.350/.434
He has 263 career steals, versus 74 CS. Jeter has 215 SBs, compared with 57 CS. Anyone really think 40 steals over nearly the same number of games is really worth the falloff from .314/.386/.461 to .290/.353/.431? And Damon's been helped by Fenway for 4 years, and a good hitter's park in Kansas City, while Jeter's been hurt by YS on righties.There is no doubt that Jeter should lead off.
Great Idea. I got a debate brewing over here...Good luck!
JeffWeaverFan
02-13-06, 09:10 PM
It should be noted that if you are looking at his career numbers for Jeter in those spots, his two best seasons ('99 and '00) were when he was batting in the 2 spot and the reason he had those great seasons was not because of where he was hitting, rather because he was in his prime IMHO.
It should be noted that if you are looking at his career numbers for Jeter in those spots, his two best seasons ('99 and '00) were when he was batting in the 2 spot and the reason he had those great seasons was not because of where he was hitting, rather because he was in his prime IMHO.Wait, so you're saying he's past his prime?
JeffWeaverFan
02-13-06, 09:16 PM
Wait, so you're saying he's past his prime?
Well, past his prime is a bit harsh... But, at the age of 31 and 32 next year, I would say that yes, he is past his prime. Still a great player but he won't be putting up his 1999 numbers again, that's for sure.
Well, past his prime is a bit harsh... But, at the age of 31 and 32 next year, I would say that yes, he is past his prime. Still a great player but he won't be putting up his 1999 numbers again, that's for sure.I thought prime was 28-33. By your standard, A-Rod will be past his prime in a couple of years....
I'm not arguing that he didn't have great seasons or that he'll definitely replicate them, I just think your defn. of prime is a little narrow.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 09:23 PM
There is no doubt that Jeter should lead off.
Jeter w/ runner on 1B
05- .396 BA
03- .390 BA
01- .340 BA
00- .407 BA
99- .377 BA
In 04 he hit .290 something, but that was that wierd year where he didn't hit anything until what like June.
98...Knobby OBP .361........Jeter BA .324
99...Knobby OBP .393........Jeter BA .349
00...Knobby OBP .366........Jeter BA .339
01...Knobby OBP .339........Jeter BA .311
02...Soriano OBP .332........Jeter BA .297
I recently noticed this trend. Damon will probably hit the same in either spot while Jeter's numbers seem to correlate with those of his leadoff hitter. I go Damon-Jeter for that reason. I think he is pretty much the same hitter he was, and that many other variables lead to him having some years bigger than others.
Jeter w/ runner on 1B
05- .396 BA
03- .390 BA
01- .340 BA
00- .407 BA
99- .377 BA
In 04 he hit .290 something, but that was that wierd year where he didn't hit anything until what like June.
98...Knobby OBP .361........Jeter BA .324
99...Knobby OBP .393........Jeter BA .349
00...Knobby OBP .366........Jeter BA .339
01...Knobby OBP .339........Jeter BA .311
02...Soriano OBP .332........Jeter BA .297
I recently noticed this trend. Damon will probably hit the same in either spot while Jeter's numbers seem to correlate with those of his leadoff hitter. I go Damon-Jeter for that reason.Well, the first set of stats really means nothing. Anyone could be on base ahead of Jeter. What if he came up with 2 out and a man on first?
The point is that Jeter has a higher OBP than Damon, GIDP more than Damon (and some other stuff that has been debated into the ground), which is why he should leadoff.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 09:31 PM
Well, the first set of stats really means nothing. Anyone could be on base ahead of Jeter. What if he came up with 2 out and a man on first?
The point is that Jeter has a higher OBP than Damon, GIDP more than Damon (and some other stuff that has been debated into the ground), which is why he should leadoff.The fist stats are far from meaningless. The difference between Jeter batting 1st behind a ninth place hitter, and 2nd behind a leadoff hitter who is constantly on 1B, is a good amount of ABs in a situation he obviously thrives in. The difference between Jeter's GIDPs and Damon's GIDPs is about 5 outs.
The fist stats are far from meaningless. The difference between Jeter batting 1st behind a ninth place hitter, and 2nd behind a leadoff hitter who is constantly on 1B, is a good amount of ABs in a situation he obviously thrives in. The difference between Jeter's GIDPs and Damon's GIDPs is about 5 outs.Yes, except you can't parse those stats out from the ones you gave me. The stats you provided could conceivably have JoPo at 1st when Jeter comes up to bat AS LEADOFF.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 09:36 PM
Yes, except you can't parse those stats out from the ones you gave me. The stats you provided could conceivably have JoPo at 1st when Jeter comes up to bat AS LEADOFF.
I don't think it makes any difference who the base runner is. My point is he has much success with a runner on first base. Therefore the batter infront of him having a greater number of singles and walks would lead to Jeter having more ABs in a situation where he is normally better than a .380 hitter.
I don't think it makes any difference who the base runner is. My point is he has much success with a runner on first base. Therefore the batter infront of him having a greater number of singles and walks would lead to Jeter having more ABs in a situation where he is normally better than a .380 hitter.However, he gets on base much more often than Damon does.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 09:42 PM
However, he gets on base much more often than Damon does.True, and Damon Ks alot less, and both are good arguments for Jeter to lead off and Damon to hit second(I'm assuming thats what you want). My thinking is just that both of their jobs are to get on base for A-Rod, Giambi, Sheffield, Matsui...If there is reason to think that the two will combine for a higher obp if the order is Damon-Jeter then wouldn't that be the most effective top of the lineup?
True, and Damon Ks alot less, and both are good arguments for Jeter to lead off and Damon to hit second(I'm assuming thats what you want). My thinking is just that both of their jobs are to get on base for A-Rod, Giambi, Sheffield, Matsui...If there is reason to think that the two will combine for a higher obp if the order is Damon-Jeter then wouldn't that be the most effective top of the lineup?Well, the argument can be made, but IMO (and the stats back it up to a large extent), Jeter-Damon is better. I've made all my arguments in the Damon thread, if you want to give that a read.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 10:00 PM
Well, the argument can be made, but IMO (and the stats back it up to a large extent), Jeter-Damon is better. I've made all my arguments in the Damon thread, if you want to give that a read.
I probaly will. Initially I thought Jeter-Damon was the way to go...I changed my mind when I saw these numbers. My mind can always change again, who knows.
JeffWeaverFan
02-13-06, 10:41 PM
I thought prime was 28-33. By your standard, A-Rod will be past his prime in a couple of years....
I'm not arguing that he didn't have great seasons or that he'll definitely replicate them, I just think your defn. of prime is a little narrow.
Yes, you could be right. I think prime is more 27-31 though.
JeffWeaverFan
02-13-06, 10:46 PM
I probaly will. Initially I thought Jeter-Damon was the way to go...I changed my mind when I saw these numbers. My mind can always change again, who knows.
The problem with your argument, at least IMO, is that that advantage does not outweigh the other advantages of Jeter batting 1st and Damon batting 2nd.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 10:49 PM
Well, the argument can be made, but IMO (and the stats back it up to a large extent), Jeter-Damon is better. I've made all my arguments in the Damon thread, if you want to give that a read.Man I should have asked what page. I'm on like 8 now. What stats besides OBP did you use?
PaulieIsAwesome
02-13-06, 10:51 PM
Yes, you could be right. I think prime is more 27-31 though.
Certainly, though, most of us can agree that Jeter will not ever hit .350/.440/.550 again, like he did in 1999. That's best player in baseball type stuff (when it's from a shortstop) when I think Jeter is more like top 15, top 20 right now.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 10:51 PM
The problem with your argument, at least IMO, is that that advantage does not outweigh the other advantages of Jeter batting 1st and Damon batting 2nd.If you think of the two of them as a collective two player "table setting" unit, that will likely be on base more often if constructed Damon-Jeter, then what other numbers make you want Jeter leading off?
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 10:57 PM
Just so I'm not missunderstood, I should go on record as saying that Derek Jeter is obviously a better leadoff hitter than Jonny Damon. Derek Jeter is also better 2-9 than Jonny Damon because Jeter is just a better offensive player than Jonny Damon. My premis is I honestly believe that Damon-Jeter will result in more runners on base than Jeter Damon.
JeffWeaverFan
02-13-06, 11:09 PM
If you think of the two of them as a collective two player "table setting" unit, that will likely be on base more often if constructed Damon-Jeter, then what other numbers make you want Jeter leading off?
I don't think they will get on base more often if constructed Damon-Jeter.
JeffWeaverFan
02-13-06, 11:10 PM
Man I should have asked what page. I'm on like 8 now. What stats besides OBP did you use?
I'm guessing here... DP's, L,R,L thing, Damon grounds more balls to the right side than Jeter does.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 11:15 PM
I'm guessing here... DP's, L,R,L thing, Damon grounds more balls to the right side than Jeter does.
The DPs will acount for 5 outs all year give or take. Is there an actual stat for grounding the ball to the right side? Because based on the numbers w/runner on first I'd be willing to bet money that Jeter puts more balls on the ground between 1st and 2nd in those situations. The L/R thing just doesn't bother me that much.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 11:18 PM
I don't think they will get on base more often if constructed Damon-Jeter.Why not?
BobbyMurcerFan
02-13-06, 11:20 PM
In Damon's book he says he does a lot things as a leadoff hitter that don't show up in the stats everyone looks at. Mostly he talks about taking as many pitches as he can to show his teammates what the pitcher is throwing and how well he's throwing it.
My honest feeling is that until it appears to be a problem, Jeter should bat 2 and Damon 1. I think the tweaking is on the margins, and I'd hate to take away a position from Damon that he clearly relishes.
JeffWeaverFan
02-13-06, 11:40 PM
Why not?
Because Jeter will have a better OBP than Damon and if he's batting 1st than he'll have 30 more AB's than Damon will over the course of a season. So, it's a 60 AB swing with the better OBP in front of the worse OBP guy.
JeffWeaverFan
02-13-06, 11:42 PM
The DPs will acount for 5 outs all year give or take. Is there an actual stat for grounding the ball to the right side? Because based on the numbers w/runner on first I'd be willing to bet money that Jeter puts more balls on the ground between 1st and 2nd in those situations. The L/R thing just doesn't bother me that much.
In one of the threads discussing this (not the last one, but one of the many) BJG showed a chart proving that.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-13-06, 11:58 PM
In one of the threads discussing this (not the last one, but one of the many) BJG showed a chart proving that.Given the difference between Jeter's numbers w/runner on 1B and Damon's I don't think it matters. Jeter is better with a runner on 1B than Damon is, always has been.
JeffWeaverFan
02-14-06, 12:04 AM
Given the difference between Jeter's numbers w/runner on 1B and Damon's I don't think it matters. Jeter is better with a runner on 1B than Damon is, always has been.
How many more times over the course of the season will Jeter be batting with a man on 1st base batting 2nd rather than batting 1st? 30 times? Plus, how many times will Jeter bunt Damon over in the 1st inning instead of hitting away when Damon is on 1st base? That will be counter productive.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-14-06, 12:14 AM
How many more times over the course of the season will Jeter be batting with a man on 1st base batting 2nd rather than batting 1st? 30 times? Plus, how many times will Jeter bunt Damon over in the 1st inning instead of hitting away when Damon is on 1st base? That will be counter productive.I guess I'm forgetting that the team won't be Torre proof, your right about the bunting, i wasn't thinking about that, but I do think Jeter will have a great deal more ABs with a runner on 1B hitting behind Damon than say Andy Phillips/Bernie Williams/Cano whoever is hitting 9th. Then again its not like Jeter hits 1.000 in those situations. To be completely honest I don't care either way, but I think there are just as many arguments for Damon as there are for Jeter. If anything else I think calling it "obvious" either way is short sighted.
PaulieIsAwesome
02-14-06, 12:15 AM
Because Jeter will have a better OBP than Damon and if he's batting 1st than he'll have 30 more AB's than Damon will over the course of a season. So, it's a 60 AB swing with the better OBP in front of the worse OBP guy.
It's about 18 and I don't think it's quite double, more like a 30 PA swing for Jeter hitting 2.
Still, the point holds.
PaulieIsAwesome
02-14-06, 12:18 AM
In Damon's book he says he does a lot things as a leadoff hitter that don't show up in the stats everyone looks at. Mostly he talks about taking as many pitches as he can to show his teammates what the pitcher is throwing and how well he's throwing it.
My honest feeling is that until it appears to be a problem, Jeter should bat 2 and Damon 1. I think the tweaking is on the margins, and I'd hate to take away a position from Damon that he clearly relishes.
Last year: Jeter: 3.82 P/PA
Damon: 3.72 P/PA
Of course, in the years before that, Damon was up at 4.1, good for about 13th in baseball. Still, it's not absolutely true that Jeter is worse at taking pitches than Damon.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-14-06, 12:23 AM
It's about 18 and I don't think it's quite double, more like a 30 PA swing for Jeter hitting 2.
Still, the point holds.
Not if you think Jeter is 9 bases better if he hits second behind Damon. The numbers I gave suggest thats a possibility.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-14-06, 12:23 AM
Last year: Jeter: 3.82 P/PA
Damon: 3.72 P/PA
Of course, in the years before that, Damon was up at 4.1, good for about 13th in baseball. Still, it's not absolutely true that Jeter is worse at taking pitches than Damon.
My next argument was going to be how much better Damon usually is at taking pitches than Jeter. Last year was the first year otherwise, and the other years weren't really close.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
02-14-06, 12:39 AM
Ok, wow, i couldn't finish that Damon thread...a few thoughts I had....
Jason Michaels had nearly as many atbats against left handers as he did against right handers last year. Your basic major league starter is going to have over double against righties. My guess is he didn't have to face the tough right handers on a regular basis, and his home road splits clearly favor Philly. All these factors make his .399 obp very suspect to me. Also Tanyon Sturtze+Sean Henn is not equal to Arthur Rhodes for a team like Philly.
To say Damon is going to block a guy like Tim Battle is way off IMO. Battle is still extreemly raw and not even at Tampa yet. We've all seen Melky in CF, can anybody honestly say he'll stay a CF or that he's more valuable to us as an OFer than a chip? I don't think guys like Gardner, Henry, Jackson, and Tabata are going to have to worry about Damon.
That and what i've already stated in this thread that simply looking at Jeter's splits leading off vs hitting second were simplifying things too much. As is saying Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Damon...yeah, he is, but A-Rod would be too, why is leadoff to second seen as a demotion.
There were other things in that thread I wanted to ask people about, but it just got too late and i must have forgot them.
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.7 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
0