View Full Version : What happens to Moose on '07
Dr. Gonzo
01-12-06, 09:16 AM
With the off season getting real boring...
What happens to Moose next year,
does he come back as a 5 for much cheaper? Will the yanks let him be the team where he can go after 250 wins (what some people say is the new HOF number).
Does he even have a shot at the HOF, what would he need to do.
I know alot depends on what he does this year. But moose doesn't seem like the guy who would go to another team now. Maybe philly or pitt since it is close to his house. I just don't see him going to arizona to chase wins.
Sixty one
01-12-06, 09:22 AM
I see him retiring with a bad arm. He has all the money that he needs and doesn't seem like a player who looks for individual awards to satisfy his needs.
Yankees1962
01-12-06, 09:26 AM
It depends on what type of year he has, but at this time, I don't see the Yankees bringing him back after next season.
hardrain
01-12-06, 09:29 AM
I fear another Moose breakdown this year for a month or more, and a tedious August in which he stuggles to fine tune himself. I pencil him in for 11-7. 4.00 ERA.
He falls short of the hall.
I think he'll keep pitching, but elsewhere. He'll want to leave, and the Yankees won't want him back. (I won't either. He'll be just about done.)
Dr. Gonzo
01-12-06, 09:32 AM
I think he'll keep pitching, but elsewhere. He'll want to leave, and the Yankees won't want him back. (I won't either. He'll be just about done.)
why would moose want to leave?
he is a comfort guy, and I don't see him uprooting his routine for personal stats, which I agree that he doesn't seem to care for.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
01-12-06, 09:36 AM
My guess is that he's done as a Yankee. But he won't leave the Northeast, so either he will retire or he'll sign something like a 2 year deal with the Phillies and then call it a career.
NelsonMuntz
01-12-06, 09:43 AM
I'm more worried about Moose in '06.
ICEBERG18
01-12-06, 09:50 AM
I don't think he'll be on the Yankees. Quality free agent pitchers will be available, and we might have a Minor League pitcher break out.
38Special
01-12-06, 09:55 AM
I believe two things will happen (and i hope they do happen)
1) Moose will have a good year, being that it is free agent walk year
2) One of Clippard, Hughes, White will step up in 06 and step into Moose's spot in 07.
That depends entirely on performances by Pavano, Chacon, Hughes and Clippard. If all of those prove efective the yanks won't feel uncomfortable with having one of the minor leaguers as a 5th starter with RJ, Pavano, Chacon, Wang rounding up the rotation.
But my guess is he's done as a yankee.
38Special
01-12-06, 09:59 AM
The quality FAs next year are:
Jason Schmidt - He's getting older now and cant stay healthy
Kerry Wood (Mutual Option) - I can't see the Cubs let him go away
Mike Mussina (Team Option)
Kelvim Escobar - Possibility
Ted Lilly - Can't see us going down that road now, especially given his injury/ineffectiveness
Andy Pettitte - Not likely to happen
Mark Mulder - Not the premium pitcher he once was
Barry Zito - Possibility, but I see the team who trades for him locking him up long-term
Doug Davis - Possibility
Mark Buerhle (Team Option) - No way the White Sox let him go
David Wells - ha
38Special
01-12-06, 10:00 AM
The 07 offseason class however has some REALLY great options
Bartolo Colon
Freddy Garcia
Roy Halladay
Carlos Zambrano
Josh Beckett
Roy Oswalt
Chris Carpenter (Team Option)
C.C. Sabathia
SubwayFanatic
01-12-06, 10:01 AM
I believe two things will happen (and i hope they do happen)
1) Moose will have a good year, being that it is free agent walk year
Hasn't Baseball Prospectus proven the belief that players somehow magically having a good year in their walk year to be false?
38Special
01-12-06, 10:04 AM
Hasn't Baseball Prospectus proven the belief that players somehow magically having a good year in their walk year to be false?
I'd love to see such a study because i've seen it happen countless times.
SubwayFanatic
01-12-06, 10:14 AM
I'd love to see such a study because i've seen it happen countless times.
Not sure if that study is online. It may have been in one of Baseball Prospectus' books.
Sure, some players may have had good years in their contract years, but couldn't it be that it's because baseball is just a very unpredictable game. I mean, Bill Mueller won a batting title a few years ago, who would have saw that coming?
I really don't see a guy like Mussina having a better year because 'he is in his contract year.' He may have the heart to try harder, but his body and physical skills are just not what they once were.
I would like to see him bounce back, but I would not count on it happening.
CaptainThurman
01-12-06, 10:25 AM
I just hope he rides into the sunset. His best days are long gone...
Moose will give us a decent year in '06 and then retire. He should, atleast.
InterlockingNY
01-12-06, 10:55 AM
There is no way the Yanks can bring him back. He cant stay healthy anymore, and there is no question he is not the pitcher he was only a couple of seasons ago. Besides, wouldnt he be owed like 20 million or something like that?
Moose guts through 2006 and gives us 14 wins. We decline his option and offer him a smaller deal to return in 2007. With a World Series ring wrapped snuggly around his finger, he signs off on a low-risk contract through 2008. Being the thoughtful guy that he is, Moose acknowledges that his #2 spot in the rotation will go to one of the youngsters who dazzled the sports media in the playoffs.
YankClipper5
01-12-06, 10:58 AM
I don't think he is HOF material, he is borderline but still is chasing a Championship. If he gives us a huge year and pitches well in winning the Series, he may command a nice 2 or 3 year deal which he can chase the HOF but Moose seems like a guy who would probably retire if he had a stellar year and won a WS ring... I like his character and he may have a couple good years left in him. Let's hope he performs this year and then worry about it.
Dr. Gonzo
01-12-06, 11:04 AM
I hope we win a WS with him this year, but I hope that every year
Bernie Inferno
01-12-06, 11:25 AM
Moose guts through 2006 and gives us 14 wins. We decline his option and offer him a smaller deal to return in 2007. With a World Series ring wrapped snuggly around his finger, he signs off on a low-risk contract through 2008. Being the thoughtful guy that he is, Moose acknowledges that his #2 spot in the rotation will go to one of the youngsters who dazzled the sports media in the playoffs. I like your idea!
CaptainThurman
01-12-06, 12:08 PM
The best news is that Moose and Sheffield alone free up $32 mil in salary dollars after 2006. Too bad Posada's option will vest, otherwise this team would be seriously looking at a not-too-embarrassing payroll situation in 2007.
silverdsl
01-12-06, 12:10 PM
Moose guts through 2006 and gives us 14 wins. We decline his option and offer him a smaller deal to return in 2007. With a World Series ring wrapped snuggly around his finger, he signs off on a low-risk contract through 2008. Being the thoughtful guy that he is, Moose acknowledges that his #2 spot in the rotation will go to one of the youngsters who dazzled the sports media in the playoffs.I like the way you think!!
I'm more concerned though with how Moose is going to pitch in 2006 then what he might do in 2007 and beyond. Moose is one of my favorite Yankees so I'm really pulling for him to have a strong, injury-free season. If he stays healthy I think he will be a big asset to the Yankees this season.
I'd love to see him stay with the Yankees for the remainder of his career, however long that may be, but I don't know if that will happen.
-Deborah
surge511
01-12-06, 12:27 PM
I bet he gets 14 wins with a 4.3 ERA. I would not be surprised to see an injury, however. I bet Small and Wright both get starts this year, as well as some minor leaguers because of the fragility of the rotation. Hopefully, a youngster can prove himself and solve the offseason pitching problem.
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-12-06, 12:54 PM
Sure, some players may have had good years in their contract years, but couldn't it be that it's because baseball is just a very unpredictable game.
I can't find it online either, but that's exactly what they found. Plenty of guys improve in their walk years, but plenty of guys improve in non-walk years. And plenty of guys don't improve in their walk years, just as plenty of guys don't improve in non-walk years. Looking at lots and lots of guys, though I don't have the specifics of how many or over what period of time, they found that improvement in walk years happens no more often than improvement any other time, and declining in walk years happens just as often as declining any other time.
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-12-06, 12:55 PM
I think what happens to Moose in '07 is that he starts putting that Stanford education to work.
pettitte_mussina
01-12-06, 01:37 PM
I think he'll keep pitching, but elsewhere. He'll want to leave, and the Yankees won't want him back. (I won't either. He'll be just about done.)
why wouldn't he want to be back??
pettitte_mussina
01-12-06, 01:41 PM
I hope we win a WS with him this year, but I hope that every year
me tooo~~~!!! he deserves one! as do all the other yankees.
pettitte_mussina
01-12-06, 01:41 PM
I like the way you think!!
I'm more concerned though with how Moose is going to pitch in 2006 then what he might do in 2007 and beyond. Moose is one of my favorite Yankees so I'm really pulling for him to have a strong, injury-free season. If he stays healthy I think he will be a big asset to the Yankees this season.
I'd love to see him stay with the Yankees for the remainder of his career, however long that may be, but I don't know if that will happen.
-Deborah
I second (third?) that!!
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-12-06, 01:41 PM
Moose should be a HOF imo, Schilling will get in and Moose has just as good career stats as him and played his career in the AL while Schilling played mostly in the NL. If Schilling gets in and Moose doesnt then the HOF loses even more credibility.
pettitte_mussina
01-12-06, 01:43 PM
The 07 offseason class however has some REALLY great options
Bartolo Colon
Freddy Garcia
Roy Halladay
Carlos Zambrano
Josh Beckett
Roy Oswalt
Chris Carpenter (Team Option)
C.C. Sabathia
bartolo colon, tho a great pitcher, is even more injury-prone that moose is... and moose is better. ;)
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-12-06, 01:45 PM
If the Cubs are stupid enough to not lock zambrano up long term we should give him a blank check and say "have fun"
JamieMadrox
01-12-06, 01:54 PM
I think he will finally get out of the AL East, into the NL West, and easily win 20 games for 3 straight years, wonder why the hell he didn't do this earlier, get to 300 wins and be a shoe-in for the HOF ;)
Also at least 3 straight NL CYA
Mattpat11
01-12-06, 02:08 PM
The quality FAs next year are:
Jason Schmidt - He's getting older now and cant stay healthy
Kerry Wood (Mutual Option) - I can't see the Cubs let him go away
Mike Mussina (Team Option)
Kelvim Escobar - Possibility
Ted Lilly - Can't see us going down that road now, especially given his injury/ineffectiveness
Andy Pettitte - Not likely to happen
Mark Mulder - Not the premium pitcher he once was
Barry Zito - Possibility, but I see the team who trades for him locking him up long-term
Doug Davis - Possibility
Mark Buerhle (Team Option) - No way the White Sox let him go
David Wells - haI'll take Mussina
Dr. Gonzo
01-12-06, 02:33 PM
Moose should be a HOF imo, Schilling will get in and Moose has just as good career stats as him and played his career in the AL while Schilling played mostly in the NL. If Schilling gets in and Moose doesnt then the HOF loses even more credibility.
schilling will get in over moose, eventhough he shouldn't. Schilling even said he doesn't deserve, but that probably just talk.
Schilling will get in on the two WS, and that he won it for boston. If he won in KC instead of boston it wouldn't have mattered as much.
BronxBombers2005
01-12-06, 02:40 PM
Its hard to say this but I dont think the Yanks will be looking foward to keeping him in 07. But if he does have a good year (lets hope) maybe be can come back for much less of a price. But there are some great pitchers out on the market in 07.
As far as him going to the HOF, that probably wont happen. He has never won 20 games in one season and his numbers arn't really that good.
schilling will get in over moose, eventhough he shouldn't. Schilling even said he doesn't deserve, but that probably just talk.
Schilling will get in on the two WS, and that he won it for boston. If he won in KC instead of boston it wouldn't have mattered as much.
Winning the WS actually tends to be less of an issue than simply being a part of contending teams, something that Mussina has done all the way back to his B-more days. Schilling also has to contend with not really establishing himself until he was 29. He doesn't even have 200 wins yet. Mussina has a shot depending on what he does the next few years. I don't think Schilling has any chance.
I've always liked Moose and wouldnt mind havign him back (at a reduced salary of coarse), but I have a feeling he will retire. If not I think he might go to one of the Pennsylvania teams or Baltimore.
As consistently good as Mussina has been throughout his career, he has been plagued by bad luck and poor run support. He's had how many (2 or 3?) no-hitters/perfect games blown in the 8th and 9th inning?
I think he has the talent to be a Hall of Famer, but because he comes across as moody and aloof with sportswriters, he most likely won't get in -- unlike Schilling who has probably been campaigning for the Hall since kindergarten, always filling the reporter's notebooks with juicy quotes, while perfecting the art of bogus self-depcrecation.
I have a good feeling about Moose for this season, and to some extent, that confidence has to do with my confidence in the Yanks restocked bullpen (please be good, Farnsworth & Co., please be good).
Mussina's craftiness and knuckle-curve should continue to serve him well, and his fastball should still have enough zip to keep most hitters off balance. I see him keeping the Yanks in the game until the 7th inning most of his outings, and throwing a few gems as well.
Addressing the title of this thread, I have no idea what happens to Moose in '07.
I like the guy, I like watching him, and I have a lot of confidence in him as a pitcher. I'd love to see him parading through New York's "Canyon of Heroes" in October.
Let's Gooooo Moose!
LeapsNbounds
01-12-06, 04:04 PM
The 07 offseason class however has some REALLY great options
Bartolo Colon
Freddy Garcia
Roy Halladay
Carlos Zambrano
Josh Beckett
Roy Oswalt
Chris Carpenter (Team Option)
C.C. Sabathia
I will take Halladay (no way Jays let him walk though), Zambrano, Oswalt, and Carpenter.
Until Sebethia can straighten his cap out, he has no place on the yankees!!
I will take Halladay (no way Jays let him walk though), Zambrano, Oswalt, and Carpenter.
Until Sebethia can straighten his cap out, he has no place on the yankees!!
Agreed with everything you say. Also if Beckett is good next year I would consider him, and Garcia. But not for as much as Freddy Garcia would command.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-12-06, 04:10 PM
All im saying is that imo Schilling is just as worthy if not more than Schilling who will get in.
pettitte_mussina
01-12-06, 04:11 PM
I'll take Mussina
Me too
#7forever
01-12-06, 04:14 PM
I think Mike has been a good pitcher for the YANKEES, and an outstanding
person representing the team. I have also been a big supporter of Moose here and on other boards. I hope he has a great season and the YANKEES take the option. However his glory days are behind him, and having never won 20 in a season, and never being considered the "best" at his position, I would say he is a no go to the HOF.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-12-06, 04:23 PM
I think Mike has been a good pitcher for the YANKEES, and an outstanding
person representing the team. I have also been a big supporter of Moose here and on other boards. I hope he has a great season and the YANKEES take the option. However his glory days are behind him, and having never won 20 in a season, and never being considered the "best" at his position, I would say he is a no go to the HOF.
I hate how wins count so much in the HOF voter's eyes. Its all about run support, and its not Mussina's fault he hasnt got run support. His low ERA's should be more of an indincation of how he pitched. BTW his 2.54 era(with 241 IP) in the AL in 92 is dominating. And when you consider IP and the difference between Al and NL that 92 season for Moose imo was better than any schilling season.
YankeePride1967
01-12-06, 04:29 PM
The direction he has been heading in recent years, I doubt he has the kind of year in 2006 that will make the Yanks want to bring him back for 2007. I think this is Moose's last call in the Bronx.
I fear another Moose breakdown this year for a month or more, and a tedious August in which he stuggles to fine tune himself. I pencil him in for 11-7. 4.00 ERA.
He falls short of the hall.
Agreed. He's a good pitcher but not a great pitcher.
NelsonMuntz
01-12-06, 04:32 PM
The direction he has been heading in recent years, I doubt he has the kind of year in 2006 that will make the Yanks want to bring him back for 2007. I think this is Moose's last call in the Bronx.
Agreed. Moose has had a fantastic career and I appreciate all he's done as a Yankee. But he is definitely in decline and I am not expecting him to have a great 2006.
IrishYankee
01-12-06, 04:44 PM
Oh man would I like a front duo of Hughes and Halladay.
That walk year study is fine if you look at stats. But how do you factor in things like Agents? I mean, you know they're saying "Cut down on the parting this year" and "Remember, big performance equals big pay day". You can't convince me that players don't try to concentrate better and prepare better in a walk year.
Great players of course are those who don't need a reason to concentrate better. And of course there will be players who improve in other years of contracts. I just believe a far greater percentage of players put in maximum effort to be the best they can be in a walk year than in a regular year. Especially on poor teams who have nothing to play for from mid season on.
bagger015
01-12-06, 05:31 PM
I don't see the Yankees bringing Moose back. I sure hope he has a wonderful year for the team and also for him if he decides to pitch after '06..........:)
keithf1
01-12-06, 06:01 PM
I think it completely depends on his output this season.
JavyVazquezIsSick
01-12-06, 06:17 PM
I love Moose, I think he is one of the few players who has actually fufilled his contract and has been worth the money. That said, I want him no where near the Yankees in 07' unless its a 1 or 2 year deal at max and cheap...
surge511
01-12-06, 08:00 PM
I love Moose, I think he is one of the few players who has actually fufilled his contract and has been worth the money. That said, I want him no where near the Yankees in 07' unless its a 1 or 2 year deal at max and cheap...
I agree. While Moose has been a cog in the rotation for his entire contract, there are some more attractive options for 2007, including our minor leagues and the free agents, even for a #5 starter.
JamieMadrox
01-12-06, 08:09 PM
Never having a 20 win season keeping him out of the HOF is the most ridiculous argument ever. We all remember how much the 1994 season hurt the Yankess, we could've won it all that year...but that hurts Moose too. I have no doubt in my mind, recalling the 1994 season, Moose would've reached 20 wins, and then this all would've been a moot point.
Anyway, he has 2 19 win seasons and 2 18 win seasons, with a 2.54 ERA in that 18 win season. It's all about run support. If ANY yankee pitcher had a TWO POINT FIVE FOUR era last year over 32 starts (Moose's exact 1992), they would've won 25 games. Wins is such a horrible stat when deciding how good a pitcher is.
I don't see Moose retiring after this year, there's no way the Yankees are going to pick up his option as it's just too much money, they may sign him back at a reduced price if they can negotiate something out, possible. I think what would be best for him would be a move to the NL. In the NL I bet Moose could be pretty dominant, maybe get that 20 win season that matters oh so much finally.
Something else to think about, with 18 wins in 1992 his ERA was 2.54 and with 19 wins in 1996 his ERA was 4.81 (ERA+ of 159 and 102 respectively). Just some food for thought.
Why Not?
01-12-06, 08:34 PM
Mussina might well end up in Balmer at the end of his career. The Orioles have a pattern of burning bridges with their best players, then making all nice-nice after they retire or when that players' best days are behind them.
Exhibit A: Eddie Murray (traded at age 32 then re-acquired at age 40, held various meaningless coach positions)
Exhibit B: Raffy Palmeiro (the second time, that worked out well!)
Exhibit C: Frank Robinson (as manager)
FWIW, Brooks Robinson still avoids team functions because of dislike of the owner. :mad:
surge511
01-12-06, 08:34 PM
Anyway, he has 2 19 win seasons and 2 18 win seasons, with a 2.54 ERA in that 18 win season. It's all about run support. If ANY yankee pitcher had a TWO POINT FIVE FOUR era last year over 32 starts (Moose's exact 1992), they would've won 25 games. Wins is such a horrible stat when deciding how good a pitcher is.
I don't see Moose retiring after this year, there's no way the Yankees are going to pick up his option as it's just too much money, they may sign him back at a reduced price if they can negotiate something out, possible. I think what would be best for him would be a move to the NL. In the NL I bet Moose could be pretty dominant, maybe get that 20 win season that matters oh so much finally.
Something else to think about, with 18 wins in 1992 his ERA was 2.54 and with 19 wins in 1996 his ERA was 4.81 (ERA+ of 159 and 102 respectively). Just some food for thought.
While I agree that wins can be a bit of a false judgement on the talent of a pitcher, it is still very important. My philosophy is that good pitchers win games. Period. That is one reason why Pettitte was so good, with a high era. He did get run support, but he stepped up when it counted. Wins isn't the only stat, as some people think, but it should not be overlooked.
rmmjr58
01-12-06, 09:05 PM
My first posting....
Moose guts out 12-14 wins this year, but Cashman believes it takes too much of a toll on him so he lets him walk. Meanwhile, the Orioles young pitching staff, led by Bedard and Cabrera, begin to win games under the watchful eyes of Leo Mazzone this season, enough to convince Peter Angelos to offer a 2 year deal to Moose to anchor the staff in 2007. Moose signs with his original team, returns to win 20 games for the first time ever, erasing any memories of his traitorous move to New York after 2000.
Also, Bedard and Cabrera have monster breakout seasons, the rest of the kids pitch well beyond their capabilities, the O's somehow sneak into the playoffs via the wild card then snuff out the Yankees in a four game sweep (ala 1966) to win the ALCS.
Why Not?
01-12-06, 09:17 PM
My first posting....
Moose guts out 12-14 wins this year, but Cashman believes it takes too much of a toll on him so he lets him walk. Meanwhile, the Orioles young pitching staff, led by Bedard and Cabrera, begin to win games under the watchful eyes of Leo Mazzone this season, enough to convince Peter Angelos to offer a 2 year deal to Moose to anchor the staff in 2007. Moose signs with his original team, returns to win 20 games for the first time ever, erasing any memories of his traitorous move to New York after 2000.
Also, Bedard and Cabrera have monster breakout seasons, the rest of the kids pitch well beyond their capabilities, the O's somehow sneak into the playoffs via the wild card then snuff out the Yankees in a four game sweep (ala 1966) to win the ALCS.
While I like what you're smoking.....I would expect to see the Orioles sign Mussina ONLY if there is virtually no gas left in the tank.
38Special
01-12-06, 09:34 PM
My first posting....
Moose guts out 12-14 wins this year, but Cashman believes it takes too much of a toll on him so he lets him walk. Meanwhile, the Orioles young pitching staff, led by Bedard and Cabrera, begin to win games under the watchful eyes of Leo Mazzone this season, enough to convince Peter Angelos to offer a 2 year deal to Moose to anchor the staff in 2007. Moose signs with his original team, returns to win 20 games for the first time ever, erasing any memories of his traitorous move to New York after 2000.
Also, Bedard and Cabrera have monster breakout seasons, the rest of the kids pitch well beyond their capabilities, the O's somehow sneak into the playoffs via the wild card then snuff out the Yankees in a four game sweep (ala 1966) to win the ALCS.
Led by the offense featuring Kevin Millar, Jeff Conine
BombersBlvd
01-12-06, 10:14 PM
Mike Mussina has been one of my favorite ballplayers, even when he was w/ Baltimore. He could have had a HOF career, but his career has been as close to HOF as possible w/o actually getting to the next level. It's almost cruel. The guy has almost been a 20-game winner. He almost earned a World Series ring - 3 times. He's lost countless 0-1, 1-2 regular season games where he's pitched into the eighth inning (both w/ Baltimore and the Yanks, especially his first year in pinstripes), God knows how much closer that would have put him at getting to almost 300 whenever he finally calls it a career. He's pitched an almost perfect game - at least twice in his career. It's really odd. Almost cruel.
Flatten78
01-12-06, 10:39 PM
The 07 offseason class however has some REALLY great options
Bartolo Colon
Freddy Garcia
Roy Halladay
Carlos Zambrano
Josh Beckett
Roy Oswalt
Chris Carpenter (Team Option)
C.C. Sabathia
C.C. Sabathia is not going to be a FA, clevelant just locked him up LONG TERM. Aside from C.C., everybody on that list, IMO, seems like the kind of pitcher who who would definately struggle in NY. Notably Colon, who lately in YS has been shelled. Beckett=Pavano. Freddy+Oswalt+Carpenter=Succumbs to NY pressure. Zambrano=eh maybe, hes got tough attitude. Halladay=I just dont like him and with Toronto undergoing this huge(all be it combustable) overhaul of thier team, why would they let thier ace go? If they can shell out the kind of money they did this yr on Ryan, why wouldnt they do the same for Halladay. They'll probly lock him uo sometime next season.
surge511
01-12-06, 10:47 PM
Oswalt, Beckett, Carpenter, and Halladay I would go after. They would be tremendous additions to the staff.
NelsonMuntz
01-12-06, 11:27 PM
My first posting....
Moose guts out 12-14 wins this year, but Cashman believes it takes too much of a toll on him so he lets him walk. Meanwhile, the Orioles young pitching staff, led by Bedard and Cabrera, begin to win games under the watchful eyes of Leo Mazzone this season, enough to convince Peter Angelos to offer a 2 year deal to Moose to anchor the staff in 2007. Moose signs with his original team, returns to win 20 games for the first time ever, erasing any memories of his traitorous move to New York after 2000.
Also, Bedard and Cabrera have monster breakout seasons, the rest of the kids pitch well beyond their capabilities, the O's somehow sneak into the playoffs via the wild card then snuff out the Yankees in a four game sweep (ala 1966) to win the ALCS.
Good post bobbyjr.
The 07 offseason class however has some REALLY great options
Bartolo Colon
Freddy Garcia
Roy Halladay
Carlos Zambrano
Josh Beckett
Roy Oswalt
Chris Carpenter (Team Option)
C.C. Sabathia
Zambrano would be a great addition. Moose is probably pitching his last year in NY due to age and injury concerns.
Stupid Flanders
01-13-06, 07:36 AM
Good post bobbyjr.
beat me to it
yankeebot
01-13-06, 07:41 AM
Good post bobbyjr.Wow. Maybe a little more creativity with the user name next time? Challenge us.
Stupid Flanders
01-13-06, 07:42 AM
While I agree that wins can be a bit of a false judgement on the talent of a pitcher, it is still very important. My philosophy is that good pitchers win games. Period. That is one reason why Pettitte was so good, with a high era. He did get run support, but he stepped up when it counted. Wins isn't the only stat, as some people think, but it should not be overlooked.
Wait, what? So you're saying that for example in 2004:
Pitcher A: 16-14, 0.900 WHIP, ERA+ 171, ERA 2.60
Pitcher B: 18-12, 1.373 WHIP, ERA+ 92, 5.01 ERA
Pitcher B was the better pitcher?
Wins are a team stat, not an individual one.
PeteRFNY
01-13-06, 07:52 AM
The one thing that always struck me about Mussina when he was with the O's was back in the mid-90s, whenever they needed him to pitch a big game against the Yankees, the Yankees always seemed to find a way to beat him.
Aside from last year's ALDS debacle, Moose has come up pretty big for the Yanks in comparison.
No opinon here, just a random observation... :D
goin for 27
01-13-06, 09:39 AM
I hate how wins count so much in the HOF voter's eyes. Its all about run support, and its not Mussina's fault he hasnt got run support. His low ERA's should be more of an indincation of how he pitched. BTW his 2.54 era(with 241 IP) in the AL in 92 is dominating. And when you consider IP and the difference between Al and NL that 92 season for Moose imo was better than any schilling season.
I agree, but while huge win totals make it academic, folks make the hall with solid win totals if the other numbers are there. Sure, '92 was out of sight, but no one makes the HOF for one year. You mention Schilling, unless he puts together another couple of huge years, he is no HOF'er either.
Typically, you know who is a HOF'er without thinking twice. For current pitchers, it is Pedro and RJ. No brainers.
I don't think Moose misses because he never won 20 or never won a WS. He won't make it because though great, his numbers are not dominating, which is how you make the HOF.
Look at it this way, is Kevin Brown a HOF'er? I don't think so, he was just a damn good pitcher. Yet he has a better career ERA, ERA+. Very similar K rates, etc.
As far as '07, I agree with the poster who was much more concerned with '06. I hope Moose can pull it together for on more good year. After that, he will likely retire, I think.
SubwayFanatic
01-13-06, 09:43 AM
Never having a 20 win season keeping him out of the HOF is the most ridiculous argument ever.
I definitely agree that it's stupid to judge him on wins and losses, but you have to remember that the people voting for the Hall of Fame, Cy Young and other awards are not exactly the brightest bulbs.
I have heard many analysts bring up the fact that Mussina has never won 20 games over and over again, almost as if you have to win 20 games to be considered a great pitcher.
I am not going to hold that against him, but I bet some of the voters might.
yankeebot
01-13-06, 09:54 AM
Typically, you know who is a HOF'er without thinking twice. For current pitchers, it is Pedro and RJ. No brainers. Greg Maddox
Greg MaddoxMaddox is not getting in. Maddux might.
yankeebot
01-13-06, 10:06 AM
Maddox is not getting in. Maddux might.
You need a hobby. ;)
nyg02005
01-13-06, 10:07 AM
The 07 offseason class however has some REALLY great options
Bartolo Colon
Freddy Garcia
Roy Halladay
Carlos Zambrano
Josh Beckett
Roy Oswalt
Chris Carpenter (Team Option)
C.C. Sabathia
My problem with this list is that they are currently with teams who will re-signed them. Cubs, white sox, jays, cardinals and red sox are not the drays, brewers.
You need a hobby. ;)Tell me about it. I have no life :p
BronxBombers2005
01-13-06, 10:28 AM
I would love to see Santana in the pinestripes, and i think that C.C Sabathia would do well in the bronxs also.
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-13-06, 10:57 AM
Typically, you know who is a HOF'er without thinking twice. For current pitchers, it is Pedro and RJ. No brainers.
There's a guy in Houston who might feel like he's there too.
yankeebot
01-13-06, 11:02 AM
There's a guy in Houston who might feel like he's there too.
Yeah but he refuses to declare himself "current".
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-13-06, 11:16 AM
Yeah but he refuses to declare himself "current".
Touche.
PerfectCone
01-13-06, 04:47 PM
Who cares?
Personally, I have never warmed up to Mussina. He is a whiner who continually puts his comfort level above the team. Doesn't anyone remember how he called out the offense after a Playoff loss. "I did my job." In other words, go blame someone else. He blamed a short spring training and the trip to Japan for his crappy season a couple of years ago. It's always someone elses fault with this guy. Besides the fact that he has lost every important Playoff game he has pitched, besides Game 3. I know, it was big, but not big enough to simply let him slide for his other failures. Craig Counsell anyone?
I say nice knowing you, now you and your crossword puzzles take a hike.
SubwayFanatic
01-13-06, 06:47 PM
Who cares?
Personally, I have never warmed up to Mussina. He is a whiner who continually puts his comfort level above the team. Doesn't anyone remember how he called out the offense after a Playoff loss. "I did my job." In other words, go blame someone else. He blamed a short spring training and the trip to Japan for his crappy season a couple of years ago. It's always someone elses fault with this guy. Besides the fact that he has lost every important Playoff game he has pitched, besides Game 3. I know, it was big, but not big enough to simply let him slide for his other failures. Craig Counsell anyone?
I say nice knowing you, now you and your crossword puzzles take a hike.
I don't hate Mussina by any stretch of the imagination, but I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
It's not just that Mussina himself makes excuses -- a lot of the fans have made excuses for him as well.
RJ was absolutely killed by a lot of people last year, even though he had a much better season than Mussina. Maybe Mussina gets more of a free pass because he has been with the team much longer; I don't know.
But when Mussina fails a lot of people come out of the woodwork to defend this guy. "Oh, it was the defense's fault. It was just bad luck - lots of bloops and bleeders."
It's almost like, to some, he can do no wrong.
Who cares?
Personally, I have never warmed up to Mussina. He is a whiner who continually puts his comfort level above the team. Doesn't anyone remember how he called out the offense after a Playoff loss. "I did my job." In other words, go blame someone else. He blamed a short spring training and the trip to Japan for his crappy season a couple of years ago. It's always someone elses fault with this guy. Besides the fact that he has lost every important Playoff game he has pitched, besides Game 3. I know, it was big, but not big enough to simply let him slide for his other failures. Craig Counsell anyone?
I say nice knowing you, now you and your crossword puzzles take a hike.
His postseason ERA and run support point to him being a damn fine pitcher who stepped up to other team's aces and did an admirable job. He's come so close to a couple perfect games (and from your name, you seem to care about them). He's also come really close to 20 games a few times. He's come pretty close to a ring too.
He's not a leged. He's not headed for Cooperstown. He's the best almost-made-it-into-the-history-books pitcher around. If you ever have to list the pitchers who came closest to those big milestones without ever actually getting them, I guess he's high on that list.
But when people take, say, Wells over this guy, it really bugs me. It's usually people who are overly focused on W/L records.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-13-06, 07:36 PM
My first posting....
Moose guts out 12-14 wins this year, but Cashman believes it takes too much of a toll on him so he lets him walk. Meanwhile, the Orioles young pitching staff, led by Bedard and Cabrera, begin to win games under the watchful eyes of Leo Mazzone this season, enough to convince Peter Angelos to offer a 2 year deal to Moose to anchor the staff in 2007. Moose signs with his original team, returns to win 20 games for the first time ever, erasing any memories of his traitorous move to New York after 2000.
Also, Bedard and Cabrera have monster breakout seasons, the rest of the kids pitch well beyond their capabilities, the O's somehow sneak into the playoffs via the wild card then snuff out the Yankees in a four game sweep (ala 1966) to win the ALCS.
Whats up Bobby, remember when you said the Orioles tough times were over? Have fun with Millar
I am a huge Moose fan and hope that this year he gets his ring and then retires.
He really needs something special too, no 20 win season, no perfect game, and no WS ring.
Ivoted4Kodos
01-13-06, 08:57 PM
Who cares?
Personally, I have never warmed up to Mussina. He is a whiner who continually puts his comfort level above the team. Doesn't anyone remember how he called out the offense after a Playoff loss. "I did my job." In other words, go blame someone else. He blamed a short spring training and the trip to Japan for his crappy season a couple of years ago. It's always someone elses fault with this guy. Besides the fact that he has lost every important Playoff game he has pitched, besides Game 3. I know, it was big, but not big enough to simply let him slide for his other failures. Craig Counsell anyone?
And after Mariano Rivera blew game 7 in 2001, he called out Scott Brosius for not making a throw to first. In the heat of the moment after a loss, players sometimes say things they may not have otherwise.
His postseason performance, both with the Yankees and Orioles, has been quite good. And isn't every playoff game an important one? I didn't realize there was such a thing as a meaningless playoff game.
Flatten78
01-13-06, 09:38 PM
C.C. dis not a FA in 07.......... The Indians locked him for a LONG time!!!
Flatten78
01-13-06, 09:41 PM
Thye locked up CC the same time they locked up Travis Haffner and Victor Martinez
GoYanks
01-15-06, 06:26 PM
I'm a Moose fan, have been even before he was a Yankee (an unusual occurence & the convergence made me happy!) His attitude and performance, including some seriously spectacular performances in the playoffs and that run at a perfect game in Boston, makes me believe in his capability.
I expect him to have a good year with the Yankees this year. After that, he will definitely play (should he choose to do so); the question is: "for whom?"
P.S. I doubt Angelos will be a player.
enterthesandman
01-15-06, 10:24 PM
Let him go in a heartbeat... too many good FAs and top prospects who would be much better options than Mussina
Frostie
01-16-06, 10:44 AM
Is there any pitcher in baseball that excites as much controversy (on accomplishments) as Mussina? What with his talent, intelligence, personality, and epic bad luck, we would be better served if Ernest Hemingway or Saul Bellow were around to assess him. Here's to hoping a new, undisclosed off-season physical regimen has great effect on his abilities in '06.
shutout
01-16-06, 12:14 PM
I've got faith in Moose. In '06 I think he'll perform well enough for our team. 07 is another story though. I agree with most of the sentiment here: he'll probably won't play on the Yankees anymore.
He might quit professional baseball entirely after 06.
PerfectCone
01-16-06, 10:14 PM
And after Mariano Rivera blew game 7 in 2001, he called out Scott Brosius for not making a throw to first. In the heat of the moment after a loss, players sometimes say things they may not have otherwise.
His postseason performance, both with the Yankees and Orioles, has been quite good. And isn't every playoff game an important one? I didn't realize there was such a thing as a meaningless playoff game.
You've only served to further accentuate the negatives associated with Mussina and in a way bottled the issues that have affected this team since the threepeat. Can you imagine The Captain, Paulie, Tino, Knoblauch anyone from the championship run calling someone out in the press? The answer is, no. The lack of chemistry and team first attitude has been lacking since the loss to Arizona. The biggest complaint about those teams was that you couldn't even get a decent soundbite out of any of them. Nowadays, you have Sheffield running off at the mouth about everything, Mussina filing public complaints, Kenny Lofton bitching about playing time and on an on. I know that many don't put much credence into the team chemistry aspects of professional sports, but have a real conversation with a pro athlete and then get back to me with what their feelings on the topic are. The "Revolving Door" clubhouse is not going to work, ever.
This concludes my frustrated rant for the evening. Gimme a break, I sat thru the 1st Round debacle this season, not too mention the Fightin' Irish tanking in another bowl game. All of that was topped off with a big heaping helping of Bit Blue BS!!! :(
surge511
01-17-06, 08:13 AM
With the Yankees' new philosophy of getting younger and cheaper, I see little chance of Moose being around next year. He has been declining for the past 2 years steeply, and at his age, there are much better options out there for us to pursue. There are many very quality free agents available, and we have some bigtime prospects that could make a case to start '07 in the rotation.
silverdsl
01-17-06, 08:18 AM
You've only served to further accentuate the negatives associated with Mussina and in a way bottled the issues that have affected this team since the threepeat. Can you imagine The Captain, Paulie, Tino, Knoblauch anyone from the championship run calling someone out in the press? The answer is, no. The game after his perfect game David Wells took issue with someone (can't remember exactly who) for not catching a ball and gestured to him on the field in a way that made his displeasure known. Chad Curtis called out Derek Jeter in the press for the way he joked around with A-Rod during a benches-clearing "brawl" during a game with the Mariners. Knoblauch was quite sour with the media toward the end of his time in pinstripes and several players complained about playing time - at various points didn't Cecil Fielder, Shane Spencer and others take issue with how much they were used? While there was something very special about the teams during the championship run and I would agree that they were very unified the players on those teams weren't perfect either. As time goes by it seems as if the players/teams from '96-'01 get put on more and more of a pedestal and it's impossible for any of the players that have come since to live up to expectations or compare favorably.
-Deborah
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-17-06, 09:43 AM
With the Yankees' new philosophy of getting younger and cheaper, I see little chance of Moose being around next year.
That's the yankees' philosophy? I don't think they got the memo. (Although I agree with you that Moose being around in '07 doesn't seem likely).
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-17-06, 09:44 AM
As time goes by it seems as if the players/teams from '96-'01 get put on more and more of a pedestal and it's impossible for any of the players that have come since to live up to expectations or compare favorably.
Well said.
PerfectCone
01-17-06, 01:49 PM
The game after his perfect game David Wells took issue with someone (can't remember exactly who) for not catching a ball and gestured to him on the field in a way that made his displeasure known. Chad Curtis called out Derek Jeter in the press for the way he joked around with A-Rod during a benches-clearing "brawl" during a game with the Mariners. Knoblauch was quite sour with the media toward the end of his time in pinstripes and several players complained about playing time - at various points didn't Cecil Fielder, Shane Spencer and others take issue with how much they were used? While there was something very special about the teams during the championship run and I would agree that they were very unified the players on those teams weren't perfect either. As time goes by it seems as if the players/teams from '96-'01 get put on more and more of a pedestal and it's impossible for any of the players that have come since to live up to expectations or compare favorably.
-Deborah
OK, so you've named a bunch of guys that were run out of town for their transgressions. My point is that these transgressions are now overlooked in favor of great talent, regardless of character and that is a mistake. Again, have you ever heard of Tino, Jeter, Paulie, Knobby, Girardi, Rivera, Pettitte any of these guys being involved in infighting or public spats? The answer is still no. Furthermore, big deal if Knoblauch didn't like the media. Who cares? Has nothing to do with team chemistry.
Again, have you ever heard of Tino, Jeter, Paulie, Knobby, Girardi, Rivera, Pettitte any of these guys being involved in infighting or public spats? The answer is still no.
The answer is yes. For example, not only did Rivera call out Brosius, but he did it months after the game, so it wasn't even in the heat of the moment.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0320/1354658.html
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-17-06, 02:17 PM
My point is that these transgressions are now overlooked in favor of great talent, regardless of character and that is a mistake.
Very true. Character was definitely behind the inclusion of Darryl on the 96-99 teams.
ring403
01-17-06, 02:46 PM
Again, have you ever heard of Tino, Jeter, Paulie, Knobby, Girardi, Rivera, Pettitte any of these guys being involved in infighting or public spats? The answer is still no.
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyNjgmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY1ODcwMTImeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk5
NEW YORK - Mariano Rivera's hands were stretched coast-to-coast in disbelief, and the TV cameras caught him shouting, "Catch the ball, come on."
There was no mistaking the fury of the Yankees' meltdown in the ninth inning Friday night, a 3-2 loss to the Red Sox, in what could be the turning point moment in the AL East race.
Responding to Kenny Lofton's inability to run down Johnny Damon's bloop single, driving in the winning run, Rivera said, "From my view, that ball should've been caught," he was trying to explain why the Red Sox are inching ever closer to the Yankees.
As far as I know, Mo has not yet been "run out of town for his transgression."
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-17-06, 02:58 PM
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyNjgmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY1ODcwMTImeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk5
As far as I know, Mo has not yet been "run out of town for his transgression."
No doubt why we haven't won in a while.
PerfectCone
01-17-06, 04:54 PM
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyNjgmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY1ODcwMTImeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk5
As far as I know, Mo has not yet been "run out of town for his transgression."
As usual, all of the Far More Knowledgeable posters on these boards are twisting posts in order to belittle others. Oh well, I'm used to it. In case you failed to read the article that you posted, it refers to a non play by Kenny Lofton. He was not here during the championship run.
goin for 27
01-17-06, 04:59 PM
schilling will get in over moose, eventhough he shouldn't. Schilling even said he doesn't deserve, but that probably just talk.
Schilling will get in on the two WS, and that he won it for boston. If he won in KC instead of boston it wouldn't have mattered as much.
Neither Moose or Schilling will get into the hall, and neither should. They are both very good pitchers, neither is a HOF'er.
As usual, all of the Far More Knowledgeable posters on these boards are twisting posts in order to belittle others. Oh well, I'm used to it. In case you failed to read the article that you posted, it refers to a non play by Kenny Lofton. He was not here during the championship run.
hahaha... yes, time to drop your argument and turn to the foul play accusation. Everyone disagrees with me, but i can't possibly be wrong, it has to be a conspiracy to make me look stupid!
ring403
01-17-06, 05:13 PM
As usual, all of the Far More Knowledgeable posters on these boards are twisting posts in order to belittle others. Oh well, I'm used to it. In case you failed to read the article that you posted, it refers to a non play by Kenny Lofton. He was not here during the championship run.I gave you a cut and dry example of one of the people on your list (Mariano Rivera) doing exactly what you claimed he did not (calling out a teammate very publically). If you feel that people offering facts that prove your assertion to be false is "belittling", then I suggest you refrain from offering your opinions up for discussion on a public message board in the future.
PerfectCone
01-17-06, 05:46 PM
I gave you a cut and dry example of one of the people on your list (Mariano Rivera) doing exactly what you claimed he did not (calling out a teammate very publically). If you feel that people offering facts that prove your assertion to be false is "belittling", then I suggest you refrain from offering your opinions up for discussion on a public message board in the future.
And it is a fine suggestion, but for the fact that it does not reference the time frame that I am speaking about. Also, if you had seen the play, you would not be taking issue with what Mariano did. I recall the play crystal clearly and Lofton tanked the ball. He took a horrible angle and non chalanty fielded the ball on a short hop. He should have caught the ball. Not too mention that Lofton is one of the players that have brought this me first attitude to any team that he has played for. Perhaps I am playing both sides here, but I think you get my point, no? Maybe I need to clarify by saying that the close knit core of Yankees present during the championship seasons would never turn on one another or call one another out.
ring403
01-17-06, 05:49 PM
And it is a fine suggestion, but for the fact that it does not reference the time frame that I am speaking about.
I'll let your own words speak for themselves:
Again, have you ever heard of Tino, Jeter, Paulie, Knobby, Girardi, Rivera, Pettitte any of these guys being involved in infighting or public spats? The answer is still no.
Your implication is that the guys you mentioned have the "character" that would not permit them to engage in public spats. Are you now saying that Mariano Rivera no longer has the same character he did a few years ago?
As I referenced above, Rivera also called out Brosius for not turning a doubleplay in the 2001 World Series.
35Knucklecurve
01-30-06, 08:57 AM
I think he'll keep pitching, but elsewhere. He'll want to leave, and the Yankees won't want him back. (I won't either. He'll be just about done.)
I just attended the 13th annual Mike Mussina Fan Appreciation dinner on Saturday, which is held in Williamsport every January. Mike stated that he would love to continue playing in NY, but of course he realizes that baseball is a business and there a a lot of variables that will come into play. He also stated that 2007 has not been discussed with management and it shouldn't be at this point because the team has more important issue to address during the off-season. He does wish to remain close to home, so that will greatly affect his decision should he move on to another team.
BTW - he did change his off-season workout regimen and gave his arm more time to rest before he began throwing again after the season ended. He pitched for several weeks during July and August in considerable pain, putting the needs of the team before his own his career. He joked about it this weekend stating you know what kind of year you've had when one of the high points was having and MRI and hearing you didn't need surgery.
BillBuckner
01-31-06, 07:45 AM
I think if he gets his ring this year (hopefully), he hangs them up.
Dr. Gonzo
01-31-06, 08:15 AM
I think if he gets his ring this year (hopefully), he hangs them up.
I would completely agree with that
freebubba
01-31-06, 09:21 AM
I would like to see him retire as both a Yankee and WS champion. With that said, get out of the way Moose, I am officially starting the "sign Freddy Garcia" in 2007 bandwagon. Anyone want to get on? I thought we should have went after him when he was on the block in 2004.
freebubba
01-31-06, 09:23 AM
scratch the Garcia thing, thought he was a free agent after this year, but apparently not until after 2007. Sorry.
silverdsl
01-31-06, 01:43 PM
I think if he gets his ring this year (hopefully), he hangs them up.I was also at Mussina's fan club dinner this past weekend and based on his comments Mussina will not be hanging it up after this season, ring or no ring.
-Deborah
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