View Full Version : Craig Wilson
I'm sure he has been mentioned in other threads but I think the idea of trying to aquire him deserves a thread of its own. With Pittsburg trading for Casey and signing Burnitz they seem to have no spot for Wilson and would probably entertain offers for him. A good hitting RF/1B/Catcher is what this team needs and that's exactly what Wilson is. I don't know much about his defense but I know he is a fine hitter. I'm sure other teams are interested and he wouldn't come cheap but if it can be done it would add great depth to our dh/of/1b/bench situation.
ryanthe13th
01-08-06, 12:56 PM
He is being pursued by Toronto even though Pittsburgh has said they don't want to trade him.
Where do they plan on playing him if they don't want to trade him?
JeffWeaverFan
01-08-06, 01:25 PM
I would like to get him. His RF defense is a concern but the fact that he can play LF, RF, 1B, and even catcher would be a great bonus for the team. It would allow Sheff to DH a lot, and he can also spell Matsui and Giambi when they could use a rest.
He strikes out a ton, but he gets on base (partially because he gets hit with so many pitches), and he's got some pop.
The FUTURE
01-08-06, 03:06 PM
A solid young pitcher like Christian Gracia and maybe a AA or AAA OF should get it done
38Special
01-08-06, 03:35 PM
A solid young pitcher like Christian Gracia and maybe a AA or AAA OF should get it done
For someone named The FUTURE, you dont seem to care very much about it
JeffWeaverFan
01-08-06, 03:40 PM
A solid young pitcher like Christian Gracia and maybe a AA or AAA OF should get it done
I wouldn't give up Garcia for Wilson. If/when Garcia gets those walks down, he'll be an ace. He definitely has the potential. We could get him for less.
ryanthe13th
01-08-06, 03:47 PM
Where do they plan on playing him if they don't want to trade him?
As a back up player.
Kulish29
01-08-06, 04:32 PM
A solid young pitcher like Christian Gracia and maybe a AA or AAA OF should get it done
Trade a potential stud pitcher for a bench player? Are you nuts?
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-08-06, 04:57 PM
A solid young pitcher like Christian Gracia and maybe a AA or AAA OF should get it done
Thats a horrible idea, Garcia has the most upside of any pitcher in our system, even more than Hughes and maybe has more upside than any pitcher in any Al East minor league system.
drjeckyl
01-08-06, 09:12 PM
Garcia has the most upside of any pitcher in our system, even more than Hughes and maybe has more upside than any pitcher in any Al East minor league system.
JRS, that's quite a statement. Please elaborate... I'm not trying to be argumentative. But, when someone says a pitching prospect is said to have more upside than Hughes, I would like to hear more about what that person has to say about that prospect.
keithf1
01-08-06, 09:19 PM
JRS, that's quite a statement. Please elaborate... I'm not trying to be argumentative. But, when someone says a pitching prospect is said to have more upside than Hughes, I would like to hear more about what that person has to say about that prospect.
Let alone more upside than all others in the AL...
Upside is one of the silliest words in baseball. Colt Griffin had upside too. That didn't mean he ever had a shot at realizing it. A good prospect has a high ceiling, but also a reasonable chance of coming close to that ceiling.
ryanthe13th
01-08-06, 11:22 PM
Upside is one of the silliest words in baseball. Colt Griffin had upside too. That didn't mean he ever had a shot at realizing it. A good prospect has a high ceiling, but also a reasonable chance of coming close to that ceiling.
So you trade him for a bench player? I don't really see why you'd do something like that. Garcia has MLB potential, and with the Yankees 'new direction' so to speak, they seem to want to hang on to young players like that.
genius-24
01-08-06, 11:47 PM
C Wilson would be pretty good edition but it would cost us alot since lot of teams are interested in him.
I would rather prefer micheals or may be someone like austin kearns, who might are more cheaper.
Panamaniac42
01-09-06, 11:08 PM
A solid young pitcher like Christian Gracia and maybe a AA or AAA OF should get it done
A solid young hitter like Eric Duncan would probably get it done too, but we don't do that anymore.
Yankeeah
01-10-06, 12:01 AM
Garcia has more upside than any prospect in the AL? Not arguing cause I don't know, but is this true?
Garcia has more upside than any prospect in the AL? Not arguing cause I don't know, but is this true?
Best pitching prospect in the AL East. And that is only one person's opinion. Garcia is getting a lot of hype now. A number of publications really like him and he just recieved a glowing writeup from Baseball Prospectus. They named him as one of the top 10 breakout candidates for 2006. So the idea of trading him for someone like Craig Wilson is idiotic.
Read this thread to learn more about Christian Garcia.
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=90834&page=1
flymick24
01-10-06, 05:25 AM
i'd rather sign durazo to DH... won't cost us any prospects or draft picks (wasn't offered arbitration by the A's)
ryanthe13th
01-10-06, 01:25 PM
What is the status of Durazo? What teams are talking to him, and are we one of them?
27IsNext
01-10-06, 01:29 PM
A solid young pitcher like Christian Gracia and maybe a AA or AAA OF should get it done
I hope to all that is holy that you are joking. Garcia should be allowed to mature before even considering trading him, and even so, should not go for anything less than a stud.
27IsNext
01-10-06, 01:30 PM
Upside is one of the silliest words in baseball. Colt Griffin had upside too. That didn't mean he ever had a shot at realizing it. A good prospect has a high ceiling, but also a reasonable chance of coming close to that ceiling.
That doesn't change the fact that you don't trade a player with Garcia's potential for a 4th OFer.
That doesn't change the fact that you don't trade a player with Garcia's potential for a 4th OFer.
I missed where I said that. All I said was that equating raw talent into value unto itself is wishful thinking. Trying to paint Garcia as anything more than a raw talent who is a long way away from realizing that talent is disengenous. That doesn't mean I would trade him for Wilson, just that saying Garcia has more upside than any pitcher in the AL East doesn't mean anything (and that's not even getting into whether or not that statement is true). If anything, Garcia is the kind of guy you do move now if someone really wants to pay for his raw talent, like trading Hanley Ramirez to get Josh Beckett for example.
Oh, and I don't think Wilson is a 4th outfielder, but that's a separate issue.
just that calling Garcia the best anything in the AL East is silly.
Why? It's just an opinion. No different than yours although likely a lot more educated since these guys cover and see prospects for a living. I am sure there are scouts that aren't as high on Garcia. But the fact remains that some people who cover the minors for a living are very high on him and one did call him the best pitching prospect in the AL East. It doesn't mean that opinion is universally accepted. BA has been high on him since last year.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/chat/040920as.html
Q: Stephen from New Jersey asks:
Which pitcher from the Gulf Coast top 20 has the best pure stuff? Where would Bailey and Hughes had they been included, have ranked?
A: Allan Simpson: I'd say the best stuff among players in the top 20 belonged to Yankes RHP Christian Garcia. His fastball was 94-95 mph and managers said his breaking ball, a nasty hammer curve, already is major league average. Having been a catcher most of his high school career, he's just learning how to pitch so lacks experience at this point.
Why? It's just an opinion. No different than yours although likely a lot more educated since these guys cover and see prospects for a living. I am sure there are scouts that aren't as high on Garcia. But the fact remains that some people who cover the minors for a living are very high on him and one did call him the best pitching prospect in the AL East. It doesn't mean that opinion is universally accepted. BA has been high on him since last year.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/chat/040920as.html
He called him the best pitching prospect in the AL East? Or he said he had the best stuff of the Yankee minor leaguers? There is a huge difference. 'Stuff' is meaningless without performance, as 'the best prospect in the AL East' has both, not one or the other. To try and paint a picture of Garcia based purely on his stuff while completely ignoring his performance is disengenuous. Simpson didn't do that. JRS did.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 02:54 PM
All I said was that IMO Garcia has the best upside of any Yankee minor leaguer and possibly more upside than any pitcher in an AL East minor league system. By upside I mean potetional. I also said it was a horrible idea to trade him for a bench player. If we were getting a Barry Zito in his ace days or somebody in return that would be different. BTW I dont see whats wrong with my statement when BA made the same statement. I never said he was the best prospect in the al east like you accuse me of saying. Just that he has the most upside of any pitcher in an AL East minor League system. Now pitchers like Hughes, Clippard, Lester, whoever are considered better prospects because they are more polished and have a better chance of reaching their ceilings. However to trade a guy like Garcia(read his BA and BP stuff) for a bench player would be crazy.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 02:58 PM
He called him the best pitching prospect in the AL East? Or he said he had the best stuff of the Yankee minor leaguers? There is a huge difference. 'Stuff' is meaningless without performance, as 'the best prospect in the AL East' has both, not one or the other. To try and paint a picture of Garcia based purely on his stuff while completely ignoring his performance is disengenuous. Simpson didn't do that. JRS did.
Here is my original post
Thats a horrible idea, Garcia has the most upside of any pitcher in our system, even more than Hughes and maybe has more upside than any pitcher in any Al East minor league system.
upside=ceiling= the best that a player can become
upside is related to performance but not base soley off it. I said it was stupid to trade a guy who has the potetional he has for a guy like Craig Wilson.
He called him the best pitching prospect in the AL East? Or he said he had the best stuff of the Yankee minor leaguers? There is a huge difference. 'Stuff' is meaningless without performance, as 'the best prospect in the AL East' has both, not one or the other. To try and paint a picture of Garcia based purely on his stuff while completely ignoring his performance is disengenuous. Simpson didn't do that. JRS did.
It wasn't Simpson who said that. I just used that as an example of the things people are saying about him. I will have to go back in the minor league forums to find the exact quote with the attributed writer.
To try and paint a picture of Garcia based purely on his stuff while completely ignoring his performance is disengenuous.
That is not happening anymore. The Baseball Prospectus article based their hype on him due to his performace. Specifically, his combination of high K/9 and GB/FB ratio.
Christian Garcia – SP – New York Yankees – 20 (A+)
Level IP ERA H/9 K/9 BB/9 HR/9 G/F
A- 106 3.91 8.66 8.75 4.5 0.25 1.72
Very seldom do the K/9 and G/F leaderboards contain the same names. When they do, however, the pitchers are often among the very best in the league: Chris Carpenter, Carlos Zambrano, A.J. Burnett, Daniel Cabrera. These players represent Garcia’s absolute ceiling.
A former catcher, Garcia was drafted after touching the low 90s as an amateur. Once he adds weight to a lanky frame, Christian’s velocity is expected to settle in the mid-90s. Garcia also has one of the minors’ sharpest curveballs as well as a working changeup. Stuff never has been, and will never be, Garcia’s problem.
Consistency is the issue. In the past, he’s had problems repeating his delivery, as a quarter of his starts yielded four or more walks. Garcia is also at his best when inducing -a lot of groundballs, but worsened at the art when he returned from injury. With more experience, Christian should tighten his control, increase his velocity, and provoke even more groundballs. If any arm can meet such high demands, it’s this one. In a year, expect Garcia to be among the game’s top 50 prospects.
38Special
01-10-06, 03:44 PM
BA's magazine said that Garcia has the highest upside of any pitching prospect in the AL East. Not that he IS the best pitching prospect of the AL East
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 03:52 PM
BA's magazine said that Garcia has the highest upside of any pitching prospect in the AL East. Not that he IS the best pitching prospect of the AL East
Which is exactly what I said too...highest upside, I dont know where all these guys got me saying he is the best prospect in the Al East.(not that I am say ing that you are accusing me of that but a lot in this thread are)
The problem is that Garcia wasn't actually ON the leaderboard last year in those categories, unless your leaderboard is kind of big. He was around 15th in K/rate, for example, and there aren't that many qualifiers. Hell, there are only about 50 guys in the league who pitched 100 innings.
It seems to me that Bryan is saying that if Garcia strikes out more guys and gives up more ground balls, he could be on both leaderboards. That isn't an analysis of performance, that's a projection.
I graded his performance out as a B- last year relative to the league based on K/IP, HR/IP, BB/IP, GB/FB, age, etc. This was done using a system in place to grade minor league pitching performance in terms of future potential for the pats 10 years.
I think we also need to be careful with our sources. I know the guys at BP who do prospect work. This is not their job. They are regular old fans writing an article for a website.
Which is exactly what I said too...highest upside, I dont know where all these guys got me saying he is the best prospect in the Al East.(not that I am say ing that you are accusing me of that but a lot in this thread are)
It was Jaeho who pointed out that someone somewhere did indeed try to make that claim. My point is only that 'upside' and a cup of coffee will get you a wiatress asking if you want cream and sugar.
To me, Garcia is exactly the kind of pitcher you try to trade. If I can get a real player for him who has more actual value than he does because of a perceived ceiling he is unlikely to ever reach, I'm all for it. Again, that's how you can turn Hanley Ramirez into Josh Beckett.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 04:03 PM
It was Jaeho who pointed out that someone somewhere did indeed try to make that claim. My point is only that 'upside' and a cup of coffee will get you a wiatress asking if you want cream and sugar.
To me, Garcia is exactly the kind of pitcher you try to trade. If I can get a real player for him who has more actual value than he does because of a perceived ceiling he is unlikely to ever reach, I'm all for it. Again, that's how you can turn Hanley Ramirez into Josh Beckett.
I dont disagree with that, If we could get a Mark Prior or zambrano for Garcia than by all means do it but dont trade a guy with that upside for Craig Wilson.
Again, that's how you can turn Hanley Ramirez into Josh Beckett.
That's also how you can turn Scott Kazmir into Victor Zambrano.
None of us really know how good Garcia is. His is still learning how to be a pitcher. But there is a lot of talk about him and his name is beginning to appear more in these publications and websites. That can only help the Yankees no matter what they do with him. We will see how he does this year and hope that he lives up to the expectations.
I would have definately considered a garcia type for Wilson after 2001 or 2002 when he was under cost control longer and had all of his prime left.
Yanks21
01-10-06, 04:21 PM
Christian Garcia for Craig Wilson...Sure, if the Pirates threw in Neil Walker... :2thumbs:
ryanthe13th
01-10-06, 04:24 PM
You'd trade a possible great pitcher for a bench player?
You'd trade a possible great pitcher for a bench player?
No, I'd consider trading a Low A pitcher for a 150 OPS+ major league regular under my control cheap for 5 years who is 24 years old and has his prime in front of him during that 5 year period. That's better than anything the Yankees have gotten out of Sheffield, and for Sheffield's money, I can do what the Yankees did all through the 90's and bring in a very good veteran pitcher who I don't have to break into the majors.
The FUTURE
01-10-06, 07:41 PM
Look I hate to burst everyone's bubble...but not every yankee prospect is going to turn into a Future all star or something...I think we should try and send Gracia or maybe Karstens,Beam or Marquez...Wilson would be the perfect fit for our bench.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-10-06, 07:44 PM
Look I hate to burst everyone's bubble...but not every yankee prospect is going to turn into a Future all star or something...I think we should try and send Gracia or maybe Karstens,Beam or Marquez...Wilson would be the perfect fit for our bench.
your right, not every prospect pans out, that doesnt mean you should trade your good ones for bench players though. Building a good farm will help the team in the long run.
JamieMadrox
01-10-06, 07:52 PM
Look I hate to burst everyone's bubble...but not every yankee prospect is going to turn into a Future all star or something...I think we should try and send Gracia or maybe Karstens,Beam or Marquez...Wilson would be the perfect fit for our bench.
What's with your forums name...you don't seem to care about it much.
Of course not all are going to pan out, it doesn't mean trade them away. More good prospects in your system does however mean that more of them will pan out. Why not trade Hughes instead? He won't definetly pan out. It's because you need a large number of good prospects so that a good number will pan out, you don't want to get rid of your good prospects for a bench player, that's not how you build a team for the future.
YankeePride1967
01-10-06, 08:12 PM
Look I hate to burst everyone's bubble...but not every yankee prospect is going to turn into a Future all star or something...I think we should try and send Gracia or maybe Karstens,Beam or Marquez...Wilson would be the perfect fit for our bench.
Not every one, no. However, if you use this philosophy as the rule, you will trade away a future all star. And if you don't get something back of substance, you will be hearing about it for years.
ryanthe13th
01-10-06, 09:34 PM
Look I hate to burst everyone's bubble...but not every yankee prospect is going to turn into a Future all star or something...I think we should try and send Gracia or maybe Karstens,Beam or Marquez...Wilson would be the perfect fit for our bench.
No one believes that. The Yankee farm system is pretty depleted as it is, and there is no need to send the good prospects we have to other teams for a bench player. I'd rather go the route of trading a few guys with experience like Sturtze, Proctor, or Henn for a good bench player. Not someone who could pan out to be a good pitcher for us in the long run.
38Special
01-10-06, 09:51 PM
Look I hate to burst everyone's bubble...but not every yankee prospect is going to turn into a Future all star or something...I think we should try and send Gracia or maybe Karstens,Beam or Marquez...Wilson would be the perfect fit for our bench.
oh god you burst my bubble
The FUTURE
01-10-06, 10:14 PM
Wilson would be more than just a bench player, he would be in the lineup everyday, he is still young, and IMO we can afford to trade away one descent pitcher, espically when we have 4 or 5 guys to pick from. I would offer them Beam first, then Marquez, then Karstens, then Gracia and after that, well forget them. And Im Glad i bursted your bubble 38
we can afford to trade away one descent pitcher,
They prefer to be called sinkerballers.
Wilson would be more than just a bench player, he would be in the lineup everyday, he is still young, and IMO we can afford to trade away one descent pitcher, espically when we have 4 or 5 guys to pick from. I would offer them Beam first, then Marquez, then Karstens, then Gracia and after that, well forget them. And Im Glad i bursted your bubble 38
:lol:
Pitchers and catchers can't get here soon enough.
38Special
01-10-06, 10:51 PM
then Marquez, then Karstens
http://tinypic.com/k1vpu9.jpg
SMILEY.JPG
27IsNext
01-11-06, 11:56 AM
I missed where I said that. All I said was that equating raw talent into value unto itself is wishful thinking. Trying to paint Garcia as anything more than a raw talent who is a long way away from realizing that talent is disengenous. That doesn't mean I would trade him for Wilson, just that saying Garcia has more upside than any pitcher in the AL East doesn't mean anything (and that's not even getting into whether or not that statement is true). If anything, Garcia is the kind of guy you do move now if someone really wants to pay for his raw talent, like trading Hanley Ramirez to get Josh Beckett for example.
Oh, and I don't think Wilson is a 4th outfielder, but that's a separate issue.
I don't disagree with anything you said, just wanted to be clear as to whether or not you'd trade Garcia for Wilson.
It would've helped had I actually looked up Wilson's stats; I just assumed he was a 4th OFer. Still wouldn't give up Garcia for him.
27IsNext
01-11-06, 12:00 PM
Look I hate to burst everyone's bubble...but not every yankee prospect is going to turn into a Future all star or something...I think we should try and send Gracia or maybe Karstens,Beam or Marquez...Wilson would be the perfect fit for our bench.
Thankfully, you're not running the Yankees. By this logic, you'd trade away every potential future star (or just plain old good player--see Cano and Wang, without whom we would never have made it to the post-season). This is what we've been doing for the last couple of years, and the result is an aging, high-priced team. All in all, very poorly constructed.
Our beloved Rich said it best: it is getting harder and harder to get young, top-tier talent these days. Example: Ben Sheets and Johan Santana re-signing with their respected teams. Raising up young, top-tier talent in the farm system not only gives it to you for the league minimum, but seeing as to how they've only been exposed to the Yankee way of doing things, they bring an attitude to the team that most free agents/players acquired via trade can't bring.
A solid young pitcher like Christian Gracia and maybe a AA or AAA OF should get it done
Never.
That would be robbery for the Pirates. That would be like Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz.
Wilson would be more than just a bench player, he would be in the lineup everyday, he is still young, and IMO we can afford to trade away one descent pitcher, espically when we have 4 or 5 guys to pick from. I would offer them Beam first, then Marquez, then Karstens, then Gracia and after that, well forget them. And Im Glad i bursted your bubble 38
You're wrong on Marquez also. Check out his stats the latter part of last season, like the last 3 months. He was a stud, and if he shows any signs of continuing that performance in Tampa in 2006, you will hear a lot of him very shortly.
Kulish29
01-11-06, 12:45 PM
Look I hate to burst everyone's bubble...but not every yankee prospect is going to turn into a Future all star or something...I think we should try and send Gracia or maybe Karstens,Beam or Marquez...Wilson would be the perfect fit for our bench.
Sorry man, but you're just plain wrong on this. The Yankees dont have the luxury of trading their best prospects for a bench player/DH like Wilson (yes, he is nothing more than that).
Karstens for Wison? Sure. But they shouldnt trade Marquez, Beam, or Garcia for someone who will do nothing more than be a DH.
I would really like to have Wilson, for both his versatility and his bat. The guy can catch, not good, but regardless can catch, and like I said in another thread we need a 3rd catcher on the bench if Joe intends to use Jorge as a DH here and there this season (even if he doesnt, a 3rd catcher is always good). But carrying a 3rd catcher who is exclusive to catching is horrible and will kill the defensive depth in your bench, thats why a guy like Craig Wilson, Robby Hammock, or Eli Marrero (who recently signed with the Rockies) is in my opinion, something we need to add.
With that said, I would love to add Wilson, but not for a Garcia-type prospect. I would be willing to trade maybe one good/decent, but not top prospect for him, or maybe a prospect who doesnt project to be anything in addition to Aaron Small (I would rather keep Wright as his power arm could be very beneficial in the pen).
The FUTURE
01-12-06, 05:00 PM
Okay lets get this straight when I list guys for possible trades, I dont mean trading all of them (Example: Try Beam for Wilson, if they turn that down, Try Marquez for Wilson etc). Yeah Gracia is a good prospect, thats why i suggested trading him last. Also if Gracia is a future all-star, dont you think he would be rated a little higher and be given better rating by numerous scouts ?? Gracia will be a average-above average player in his career IMO.
Okay lets get this straight when I list guys for possible trades, I dont mean trading all of them (Example: Try Beam for Wilson, if they turn that down, Try Marquez for Wilson etc).
I really didn't want to, but I'll bite.
Why would you want to trade Jeff Marquez, who is a top 10 prospect in the Yankees system and projects as a number 2 or 3, for Craig Wilson? That would thin out a farm system that is just getting back on its feet.
Beam is 24 years old and hasn't pitched above A ball, so I am not sure if the Pirates would even want him. But the Yankees do like Beam and added him to the 40 in Nov. So why would they trade a potentially dominant reliever for a bench player?
It would be a lot less costly to sign Piazza for a year to be the 3rd catcher and DH.
Yeah Gracia is a good prospect, thats why i suggested trading him last. Also if Gracia is a future all-star, dont you think he would be rated a little higher and be given better rating by numerous scouts ?? Gracia will be a average-above average player in his career IMO.
Gracia? Who is this Gracia you speak of? I will assume you mean Christian Garcia. How much higher could Garcia be rated? According to BA, he has been on the Yankees top 10 prospects list for two straight years despite not pitching above low A ball. That is not based on his looks. If anything, Garcia is being overrated by scouts because of his arm and potential.
Gracia will be a average-above average player in his career IMO.
How on earth can you make that assessment when you haven't even seen him pitch and seem to have little idea who he even is? Yikes. And what does "average-above average" mean?
Beam is 24 years old and hasn't pitched above A ball, so I am not sure if the Pirates would even want him. But the Yankees do like Beam and added him to the 40 in Nov. So why would they trade a potentially dominant reliever for a bench player?
Because Beam isn't a potentially dominant reliever and Wilson isn't a bench player?
Despite all I keep hearing about his defense, DER and DRR both think he's actually fine in RF. His old UZRs are slightly below average, and that's still much better than what you are getting out of Sheffield or Matsui. He put up a 122 OPS+ in 644 plate appearences 2 years ago, right in line with his career 120 OPS+. Doesn't sound like a bench player to me. If the Pirates were dumb enough to trade him for a 25 year old A ball reliever, I'd sign on the dotted line so quick the paper might actually catch on fire.
Because Beam isn't a potentially dominant reliever and Wilson isn't a bench player?
On the Yankees, Wilson is a bench player. Only in the biggest Craig Wilson fan's fantasies is he playing the outfield over Sheffield or Matsui. Could he DH? Sure, but remember who our manager is. Bernie will get every chance at that spot. So you basically traded some prospects for insurance and bench depth.
I said the Pirates wouldn't even touch Beam which is why the whole thing is pointless. Wilson would cost the Yankees more than they can afford to give up for a role player. But don't get hung up that T.J. Beam is just an A ball reliever. Pitching out of the pen has taken away his one major achilles heel - stamina. He was dominant in the hitter's friendly AFL. The Yankees obviously think he’s got something if they added him to the 40-man roster. It wouldn't be shocking to see him in AAA and even the Bronx come fall.
Last month it was Brad Wilkerson. This month seems to be Criag Wilson. Who will be the next flavor of the month here?
Wilson would start over Bernie. He's a substantially better offensive player than Bernie and a substantially better defensive player than Sheffield and Matsui. If Wilson is the flavor of the month, it's because he is both available and a very good fit to fill a glaring weakness.
Refusing to make the team better because of what you think the manager might do is counterproductive to an extreme. Sometimes, we have to remember that a) Torre works for Cashman and b) moves don't happen in a vacuum where Torre doesn't know why players are being acquired.
I'm glad we both agree that the Pirates would never trade Wilson for Beam. What I still don't get is why you think the Yankees shouldn't trade Beam for Wilson. Protecting a player on the 40 man roster doesn't necessarily mean you think highly of them. It means you have room on the 40 man roster. Hell, Sam Marsonek was on the 40-man for years. That doesn't make him a good player, it just makes him, in the Yankees eyes, better than other crap they had.
You also have to consider that the Yankees aren't always right. They make mistakes, and just because they might think highly of Beam, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should nor that you should just jump on the bandwagon and go along for the ride.
When I look at Beam, I see a guy who, if he didn't do what he did in A ball at his age pitching an inning at a time, would have had to try a new career. I've looked at his 17.2 innings in the AFL as well. When you actually go through who he faced in each appearance, you are talking about almost exclusively borderline prospects. This is part of the problem with trying to draw any conclusions on such a small sample, especially when you have an od mix of talent like in the AFL, with a few good prospects, a lot of guys like Duncan who need the work, and none of the organizational players who make AAA and to a lesser extent AA what they are (look at who leads AAA in hitting stats every year, and it's almost always a guy in their late twenties or older...not the kind of player who goes to the AFL, but part of what makes AAA AAA). Oh, and yes, I have seen him pitch on more than one occassion. If he pitches for the Yankees in 2006, they are in serious, serious trouble.
Even if you thought Beam had the potential to be a good reliever at some point down the line, the relative value of a position player to a short reliever still makes this the deal to make.
I believe in the value of keeping your prospects and the value of dealing from depth when you do deal, but when we start getting overprotective of the T.J. Beams of the world, it's going a little too far.
Sorry man, but you're just plain wrong on this. The Yankees dont have the luxury of trading their best prospects for a bench player/DH like Wilson (yes, he is nothing more than that).
Karstens for Wison? Sure. But they shouldnt trade Marquez, Beam, or Garcia for someone who will do nothing more than be a DH.
David Ortiz is nothing more than a DH. What does that mean? Of course this guy is not Ortiz, but the Y's have a hole in the lineup which is now to be filled by Phillips or Crosby. At some point they are probably going to be making a move.
I think BJG has won the argument on Beam, so completely it seems pretty clear to me that the Pirates would not do that deal.
If the Y's could get Wilson for guys like Beam, then do it. If the Pirates want value, it might make sense to wait until other teams are looking for pitching in spring training and they can get a better deal for someone else. We can only speculate out of ignorance of what might be available at what cost now.
They prefer to be called sinkerballers.
:D :D :D :D :D
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-13-06, 01:57 PM
Okay lets get this straight when I list guys for possible trades, I dont mean trading all of them (Example: Try Beam for Wilson, if they turn that down, Try Marquez for Wilson etc). Yeah Gracia is a good prospect, thats why i suggested trading him last. Also if Gracia is a future all-star, dont you think he would be rated a little higher and be given better rating by numerous scouts ?? Gracia will be a average-above average player in his career IMO.
Umm BA or BP or some major scouting organization said that he has the highest ceiling of any minor league pitcher in the Al East. Just ignore that though even though we said it a million times in this thread.
Wilson would start over Bernie. He's a substantially better offensive player than Bernie and a substantially better defensive player than Sheffield and Matsui. If Wilson is the flavor of the month, it's because he is both available and a very good fit to fill a glaring weakness.
Refusing to make the team better because of what you think the manager might do is counterproductive to an extreme. Sometimes, we have to remember that a) Torre works for Cashman and b) moves don't happen in a vacuum where Torre doesn't know why players are being acquired.
He fills a "perceived" need by some for a high cost. We agree that the Pirates would laugh at Wilson for Beam. We don't know what the Pirates would want, but I believe it would start with two 10-20 level prospects. Would you trade Tyler Clippard and J. Brent Cox for Wilson? I know I wouldn't.
I'm glad we both agree that the Pirates would never trade Wilson for Beam. What I still don't get is why you think the Yankees shouldn't trade Beam for Wilson. Protecting a player on the 40 man roster doesn't necessarily mean you think highly of them. It means you have room on the 40 man roster. Hell, Sam Marsonek was on the 40-man for years. That doesn't make him a good player, it just makes him, in the Yankees eyes, better than other crap they had.
I would agree if he were a AAAA player like Sam Marsonek or Jorge DePaula. But usually A ball pitchers, who are in their mid 20's, don't get put on the 40 man. There is something there. I don't think it is because he is just better than the other crap they had.
You also have to consider that the Yankees aren't always right. They make mistakes, and just because they might think highly of Beam, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should nor that you should just jump on the bandwagon and go along for the ride.
True, but I also don't believe I am arrogant enough to know more than an organization that sees and works with these players on an almost daily basis. Of course they aren't always right, but it is not due to a lack of knowledge or due diligence. We can't scout T.J. Beam from our computer screens. My interest in T.J. Beam is not in anything he has done, but in how they are treating him. Adding him to the 40. Sending him to the AFL.
When I look at Beam, I see a guy who, if he didn't do what he did in A ball at his age pitching an inning at a time, would have had to try a new career. I've looked at his 17.2 innings in the AFL as well. When you actually go through who he faced in each appearance, you are talking about almost exclusively borderline prospects.
That is a little harsh. Going over who they faced might be effective with someone like Colter Bean, but that doesn't really work with a power pitcher who relies on stuff. I know people hate to hear it, but "stuff" does matter and translates better to the majors. Beam can top out at 97(and sits 92-94) and has an effective slider that has been his main K pitch. His problem in the past has been health and stamina. Of course his isn't the second coming of Brad Lidge, but you just don't ignore talent like that, no matter what his age.
Even if you thought Beam had the potential to be a good reliever at some point down the line, the relative value of a position player to a short reliever still makes this the deal to make.
I believe in the value of keeping your prospects and the value of dealing from depth when you do deal, but when we start getting overprotective of the T.J. Beams of the world, it's going a little too far.
The problem is that Craig Wilson would not be a position player on the Yankees. He is not even a postion player on the Pirates right now. That cannot be stressed enough. Sheffield is going to get the bulk of time in RF. Sheffield knows that his value greatly diminishes if he just a DH. He is going to want to play RF in his contract year. These are issues you can't measure with Ultimate Zone Ratings or Range Factors. An unhappy Gary Sheffield could be a very disruptive force. And for what? For Craig Wilson? It is not worth it. If Bernie can't hack it then we will trade for an older pro hitter later in the season. At a much less cost than trading for Craig Wilson now.
He fills a "perceived" need by some for a high cost. We agree that the Pirates would laugh at Wilson for Beam. We don't know what the Pirates would want, but I believe it would start with two 10-20 level prospects. Would you trade Tyler Clippard and B.J. Cox for Wilson? I know I wouldn't.
Yet you keep saying that you wouldn't trade Beam for him. It doesn't matter if the Pirates would take Beam or not. I just don't understand why you wouldn't make that deal.
I would agree if he were a AAAA player like Sam Marsonek or Jorge DePaula. But usually A ball pitchers, who are in their mid 20's, don't get put on the 40 man. There is something there. I don't think it is because he is just better than the other crap they had.
That's because A-ball pitchers usually aren't in their mid-twenties. Beam had 3 years of service time. It was either put him on the 40 man or risk losing him. Depending on who else you have, you make that decision. Given that the Yankees might not have had anyone better to protect, I can see putting him on the 40-man to see what happens with him against better competition. That doesn't equate to thinking highly of him, though, it equates to not being sure. As I said, he did enough in '05 to not be out of baseball. If he had bombed as a reliever at his age at that level, he might well have been. There's a big leap between hanging on and being on the radar.
True, but I also don't believe I am arrogant enough to know more than an organization that sees these players on an almost daily basis. Of course they aren't always right, but it is not due to a lack of knowledge or due diligence. We can't scout T.J. Beam from our computer screens. My interest in T.J. Beam is not in anything he has done, but in how they are treating him. Adding him to the 40. Sending him to the AFL.
As I said, I've seen Beam pitch a few times. Anyway, it isn't arrogant to think that you can actually have an opinion of a player that might be different than the team's opinion. In fact, the team's opinion is often driven by things that don't have a lot to do with the player. The guys who drafted Beam have inherent career advantages in not losing him before he even makes it to AA. The front office has every reason to talk him up/ride his good season and hope they can establish some value for him if they do want to trade him.
That is a little harsh. Going over who they faced might be effective with someone like Colter Bean, but that doesn't really work with a power pitch who relies on stuff. I know people hate to hear it, but "stuff" does matter and translates better to the majors. Beam can top out at 97(and sits 92-94) and has an effective slider that has been his main K pitch. His problem in the past has been health and stamina. Of course his isn't the second coming of Brad Lidge, but you just don't ignore talent like that, no matter what his age.
If his numbers in the AFL matter enough for you to view them as a positive, then they matter enough to be broken down, especially when you are dealing with such a small sample.
Baseball is full of guys who can throw that hard. You have to balance that with actual real production, and what he has done so far isn't good production. I'm not saying that production by itself is the end all be all, but neither is stuff.
The problem is that Craig Wilson would not be a position player on the Yankees. He is not even a postion player on the Pirates right now. That cannot be stressed enough. Sheffield is going to get the bulk of time in RF. Sheffield knows that his value greatly diminishes if he just a DH. He is going to want to play RF in his contract year. These are issues you can't measure with Ultimate Zone Ratings or Range Factors. An unhappy Gary Sheffield could be a very disruptive force. And for what? For Craig Wilson? It is not worth it. If Bernie can't hack it then we will trade for an older pro hitter later in the season. At a much less cost than trading for Craig Wilson now.
Because the Pirates don't think he's an everyday player, he's not an everyday player?
The goal in finding a guy like Wilson is to get someone who can allow Sheffield, Matsui, and, Giambi to split the DH spot in 3. You could even use 2 players to do this, but since Wilson can play 1B, you don't have to. We aren't talking about pissing off Sheffield and making him the permanent DH, just finding a way to let these older, defensively challenged players get a semi-day off for 50 games a year, keeping them fresher, and actually improving their overall play. Sheffield, for example, has had minor injuries for the past 3 years, at least, that he has played through. I can sell him on his offense actually being improved from getting 2 days of a week from the field with that in mind. Matsui has his game streak to worry about, for better or worse. Giambi can't play 1B 150 games. None of these guys field as well as Wilson at their respective positions. Bernie can't hit.
These are not imaginary problems. The difference between Bernie at DH and all of those guys in the field and Bernie on the bench and Wilson splitting time in LF/RF/1B is about 4 wins (1 on defense, 3 on offense) before you even get into the injury factors. That's an awful lot, and to just pretend that you can solve it with a player of at least Wilson's caliber in the middle of the season assumes that such a player will actually exist, assumes that, contrary to tradition, midseason trades cost less than offseason trades, and puts the team in a hole by going with a non-optimal configuration until such a trade is made.
I'd still take Wilkerson, but Wilson is an above average player who would cost much less. We agree that Beam won't get it done, but that doesn't mean the cost is prohibitive for the value (4 wins) we're talking about. To put it in perspective, that's like the difference between Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre last year.
longtimeyankeefan
01-13-06, 07:50 PM
Because the Pirates don't think he's an everyday player, he's not an everyday player?
Well, if he's not an everyday player on the Pirates, a team that lost 95 games last season, I certainly have to question if the is an everyday player on the Yankees.
Well, if he's not an everyday player on the Pirates, a team that lost 95 games last season, I certainly have to question if the is an everyday player on the Yankees.
First off, Wilson WAS a regular on the Pirates. 2 years ago, Wilson got 644 plate appearences in 155 games. That's every day playing time, and he put up his career rates (a 122 OPS+), so it's not like he couldn't handle it. He didn't lose his job last year, he had surgery on a finger that he injured at the beginning of May and, when he came back, got hit in the same hand and broke it. That's a bit of bad luck, but he played every day when healthy.
As to why the Pirates have chosen to go with Burnitz over him now, could it be that the Pirates are a poorly run organization? I know that concept seems shocking after 13 straight losing seasons, but when we start asking What Would the Pirates Do, maybe we need to look in the mirror.
Kulish29
01-13-06, 09:20 PM
David Ortiz is nothing more than a DH. What does that mean? Of course this guy is not Ortiz, but the Y's have a hole in the lineup which is now to be filled by Phillips or Crosby. At some point they are probably going to be making a move.
I think BJG has won the argument on Beam, so completely it seems pretty clear to me that the Pirates would not do that deal.
If the Y's could get Wilson for guys like Beam, then do it. If the Pirates want value, it might make sense to wait until other teams are looking for pitching in spring training and they can get a better deal for someone else. We can only speculate out of ignorance of what might be available at what cost now.
I wasnt replying to BJG. I was replying to The FUTURE about the comments that he/she had posted about trading good prospects for someone who is 29 and is going to be strictly a DH.
If Wilson cost Beam, I would say hell yeah. But trading Marquez, Garcia or any of the good prospects, of which we have so little of, for Wilson is dumb.
I wasnt replying to BJG. I was replying to The FUTURE about the comments that he/she had posted about trading good prospects for someone who is 29 and is going to be strictly a DH.
If Wilson cost Beam, I would say hell yeah. But trading Marquez, Garcia or any of the good prospects, of which we have so little of, for Wilson is dumb.
As best as I can tell, Wilson is a better fielder than Sheffield, Matsui, and Giambi. I don't know why he'd be a DH. As for what you would trade for him, define 'good' prospect. You have to give up something to get something, but there's a lot of grey area beneath the Yankees best prospects and their non-prospects that you could still define as 'good' if you wanted to but that I would have no problem trading in the right deal. Holding onto prospects doesn't mean holding onto every single last one. If you do, you often end up with nothing...nowhere to play the guys at the major league level because you have so many of them, so their careers falter and you get pennies on the dollar for them. Sometimes, you need to make a choice, especially when it means improving your team now if it needs improving.
Kulish29
01-13-06, 09:44 PM
As best as I can tell, Wilson is a better fielder than Sheffield, Matsui, and Giambi. I don't know why he'd be a DH. As for what you would trade for him, define 'good' prospect. You have to give up something to get something, but there's a lot of grey area beneath the Yankees best prospects and their non-prospects that you could still define as 'good' if you wanted to but that I would have no problem trading in the right deal. Holding onto prospects doesn't mean holding onto every single last one. If you do, you end up where the Twins are now. A few years ago, they had a whole bunch of hightly touted outfield prospects. They held onto all of them despite not having room for them all. Except for Hunter and Cuddyer, they're all gone, including the ones who didn't pan out but once had value in a trade, but the Twins haven't gotten anything for them.
The prospect that was originally brought up in a trade for Wilson was Christian Garcia, who is one of the better Yankee pitching prospects. He's still young, has terrific stuff and doesnt have a lot of miles logged on his arm. Would you be willing to trade Garcia for Wilson?
Well, if he's not an everyday player on the Pirates, a team that lost 95 games last season, I certainly have to question if the is an everyday player on the Yankees.
I agree. However, If we were to get him, he wouldnt need to be an everyday player. Despite things that have been said in this thread, I dont see Torre starting him over Bernie at DH. Craig Wilson would be the perfect bench player for us, due to his versatility and what he can provide offensively. There is also a lot of debate here as to what the Pirates would want for him. I dont think they would be too demanding considering they pretty much booted him out themselves. Signing Casey and Burnitz was also pretty much saying "This guy is expendable." Im obviously not sure, as I cant speak for Littlefield or anybody in the Pirates organization, but I dont think it would cost more than say Beam, another low-ceiling prospect or two (Maybe someone like Quezada or something) and/or maybe some cash (a Million or so) as well. Also I think, that if the Yankees were willing to part with Cosme, that maybe Cosme and some cash or something could get it done.
The prospect that was originally brought up in a trade for Wilson was Christian Garcia, who is one of the better Yankee pitching prospects. He's still young, has terrific stuff and doesnt have a lot of miles logged on his arm. Would you be willing to trade Garcia for Wilson?
I never said I would. That doesn't mean that the concept of trading something for Wilson, which was the original point of this thread, is a bad one. It doesn't mean that Wilson is 'only a DH' when all the evidence we have suggests he is a better fielder than the players he would move to DH. It doesn't mean people can say he has not been a full time player when he has.
Despite things that have been said in this thread, I dont see Torre starting him over Bernie at DH.
If Torre is so stubborn that he refuses to play a MUCH better player who the team just traded players to acquire and decides to get in a pissing match with his boss about it, there are a couple of simple solutions. One involves Cashman just waiving Bernie Williams. In all honesty though, I think this is just crazy talk. Are we assuming that Torre is both stupid and insular to the point where he doesn't understand what the GM, his boss, wants? I know they give him leeway, but if Torre decided that Damon was going to ride the bench in favor of Bubba, are we assuming that that just happens with no fallout from above?
Kulish29
01-13-06, 10:20 PM
I never said I would. That doesn't mean that the concept of trading something for Wilson, which was the original point of this thread, is a bad one.
I'm not saying you would trade him, just asking.
I dont mind trading something for Wilson. Maybe Melky and Henn for Wilson. I'm just against trading the good, young pitching prospects unless it's for young, ready talent.
Yankees1962
01-14-06, 04:45 AM
There are a lot of stated opinions about Craig Wilson in this thread, but I wonder if any of them are actually based on watching this guy play for any significant period of time? I'll be the first to admit that I haven't watched the Pirates that often so first hand, I know very little about this player. I've read some of his metrics online as well as in books like The Scouting Notebook and he really isn't that impressive to me. In this year's Baseball Register they say he belongs in the AL where he can DH because he's not good in the field with a below average throwing arm. He definitely has some pop when he makes contact. Right now, I'm indifferent towards trading Henn and Cabrera for him because I think the Yankees can do better in another trade. I rather have a player that can hit a little and play good outfield defense so we can DH Sheffield and Matsui more often.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-14-06, 08:13 AM
As best as I can tell, Wilson is a better fielder than Sheffield, Matsui, and Giambi. I don't know why he'd be a DH. As for what you would trade for him, define 'good' prospect. You have to give up something to get something, but there's a lot of grey area beneath the Yankees best prospects and their non-prospects that you could still define as 'good' if you wanted to but that I would have no problem trading in the right deal. Holding onto prospects doesn't mean holding onto every single last one. If you do, you often end up with nothing...nowhere to play the guys at the major league level because you have so many of them, so their careers falter and you get pennies on the dollar for them. Sometimes, you need to make a choice, especially when it means improving your team now if it needs improving.
I agree but I dont want to trade a starting pitcher with that much upside(garcia not beam) unless of course its a deal we cant refuse, Id much rather trade Melky and Henn if we could.(even though I like Henn as a bullpen guy) Even though in my eyes Garcia is a better prospect than Melky, I think Melky has more value mainly because he is close to MLB ready. Henn is 24 and throws hard and is a lefty. I dont think that deal would get done because other teams are offering more for him to start for them. Dont get me wrong I think Wilson would be great for us but the Pirates want to keep him and there are teams offering more than I want the Yankees to offer. In the end I trust Cashman though and I will stick by whatever he decides.
If Torre is so stubborn that he refuses to play a MUCH better player who the team just traded players to acquire and decides to get in a pissing match with his boss about it, there are a couple of simple solutions. One involves Cashman just waiving Bernie Williams. In all honesty though, I think this is just crazy talk. Are we assuming that Torre is both stupid and insular to the point where he doesn't understand what the GM, his boss, wants? I know they give him leeway, but if Torre decided that Damon was going to ride the bench in favor of Bubba, are we assuming that that just happens with no fallout from above?
I disagree that Wilson is a MUCH better player than Bernie.
While in the last 4 years Wilson has had more Home Runs than Bernie in each season except 2, with Bernie leading in the other 2. Granted this past year isnt a very fair comparrison based on the fact Wilson was hurt most of the year, only played in 59 games and had 197 ABs. But in the two years that Wilson led Bernie in Home Runs (2003, where Wilson had 18 compared to Bernie's 15, and 2004 where Wilson had 29 compared to Bernie's 22) they both had almost identical Batting Averages (Wilson hit .262 and .264 while Bernie hit .263 and .262).
Granted, the rest of the numbers over the last few years Wilson has led in (Im not taking last season into consideration due to the amount of time Wilson spent hurt/not playing), but I wouldnt say he is MUCH better than Bernie. I am the type of person who doesnt like looking at numbers because I realize that players are humans and not robots who's future performance is based on past numbers. With that said there is still more that would have to be taken into account. For instance, We KNOW Bernie is a proven player in big games and in the postseason. We know Bernie is capable of coming through with a clutch hit (though he didnt really show it last year.), the same cannot be said for Wilson. Wilson has no big game/postseason experience, and over his career with runners in scoring position he has batted .238 with 10 hits in 42 ABs. We know Bernie can handle New York, as he has spent 15 years here. Can Craig Wilson handle New York? You tell me.
Based on last season, if we had both Bernie AND Wilson to choose from as our DH, I personally would choose Bernie. Another reason I would leave Wilson on the bench is that he can play more positions and come in and fill in if needed in an emergency situation, rather then bring him in from his DH spot, and lose the DH forcing the pitcher to bat. Also, late in the game if we need a deep fly ball or something like that to get a runner over, or score him from 3rd on a fly ball, Wilson, I feel, with a more powerful swing is more inclined to do that off of the benchrather than Bernie.
Good arguements could be made for both players, but based on the facts that arent determined by statistical information, I would go with Bernie. He is a switch hitter, familiar with the Yankees, familiar (and comfortable) with New York, postseason/big game experience, etc.
With all that said, I would love to get Wilson, and then this discussion would actually mean something. :D
Also, rather than going to arbitration, Wilson and the Pirates have settled on a $3.5 Million contract for next year.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-14-06, 08:35 AM
I disagree that Wilson is a MUCH better player than Bernie.
While in the last 4 years Wilson has had more Home Runs than Bernie in each season except 2, with Bernie leading in the other 2. Granted this past year isnt a very fair comparrison based on the fact Wilson was hurt most of the year, only played in 59 games and had 197 ABs. But in the two years that Wilson led Bernie in Home Runs (2003, where Wilson had 18 compared to Bernie's 15, and 2004 where Wilson had 29 compared to Bernie's 22) they both had almost identical Batting Averages (Wilson hit .262 and .264 while Bernie hit .263 and .262).
Granted, the rest of the numbers over the last few years Wilson has led in (Im not taking last season into consideration due to the amount of time Wilson spent hurt/not playing), but I wouldnt say he is MUCH better than Bernie. I am the type of person who doesnt like looking at numbers because I realize that players are humans and not robots who's future performance is based on past numbers. With that said there is still more that would have to be taken into account. For instance, We KNOW Bernie is a proven player in big games and in the postseason. We know Bernie is capable of coming through with a clutch hit (though he didnt really show it last year.), the same cannot be said for Wilson. Wilson has no big game/postseason experience, and over his career with runners in scoring position he has batted .238 with 10 hits in 42 ABs. We know Bernie can handle New York, as he has spent 15 years here. Can Craig Wilson handle New York? You tell me.
Based on last season, if we had both Bernie AND Wilson to choose from as our DH, I personally would choose Bernie. Another reason I would leave Wilson on the bench is that he can play more positions and come in and fill in if needed in an emergency situation, rather then bring him in from his DH spot, and lose the DH forcing the pitcher to bat. Also, late in the game if we need a deep fly ball or something like that to get a runner over, or score him from 3rd on a fly ball, Wilson, I feel, with a more powerful swing is more inclined to do that off of the benchrather than Bernie.
Good arguements could be made for both players, but based on the facts that arent determined by statistical information, I would go with Bernie. He is a switch hitter, familiar with the Yankees, familiar (and comfortable) with New York, postseason/big game experience, etc.
With all that said, I would love to get Wilson, and then this discussion would actually mean something. :D
Lets be honest here Bernie isnt going to do better than last year, there was no reason for him doing poorly other than he is declining and has been declining for a while and he wont get better as he gets older. So using the 2005 stats for bernie is fair. Wilson was hurt but he only went down in slugging. Regardless Wilson is 29 so he isnt gong to go into any natural decline this year.
2005 Wilson:.264/.387/.421
2004 Wilson: .264/.354/.499
Career Wilson:.268/.363/.488
Now im only going to list Bernies 2005 stats only because he is not going to do what he did 7 years ago, and he is in a decline 2004 was part of that decline but he droppes off even more in 2005 and chances are he will be the same as last year if not worst in 2006
2005 Bernie:.249/.321/.367
There is no comparison.
Lets be honest here Bernie isnt going to do better than last year, there was no reason for him doing poorly other than he is declining and has been declining for a while and he wont get better as he gets older. So using the 2005 stats for bernie is fair. Wilson was hurt but he only went down in slugging. Regardless Wilson is 29 so he isnt gong to go into any natural decline this year.
2005 Wilson:.264/.387/.421
2004 Wilson: .264/.354/.499
Career Wilson:.268/.363/.488
Now im only going to list Bernies 2005 stats only because he is not going to do what he did 7 years ago, and he is in a decline 2004 was part of that decline but he droppes off even more in 2005 and chances are he will be the same as last year if not worst in 2006
2005 Bernie:.249/.321/.367
There is no comparison.
All very good points. Thanks.
But who's to say that Craig Wilson's injury from last year (where he played in 59 games, which is why I didnt include his stats in my post) wint effect him this coming year and for years to come.
Honestly...I would be comfortable with a platoon, or no set Dh at all. Just play who is hot at the time, allows for flexibility.
All very good points. Thanks.
But who's to say that Craig Wilson's injury from last year (where he played in 59 games, which is why I didnt include his stats in my post) wint effect him this coming year and for years to come.
Honestly...I would be comfortable with a platoon, or no set Dh at all. Just play who is hot at the time, allows for flexibility.
To address the last couple of posts:
1. You're right. Players aren't robots. Bernie is 37, Wilson 29 in 2006. What we need to worry about is not what they were, but what they are likely to be, and that's an important consideration. At this juncture, Wilson is likely to outhit Bernie by a huge margin.
2. Broken hands/fingers historically don't have long term impact like what you are talking about. Even while dealing with those issues, he was still substantially better than Bernie.
3. Wilson has 403 career AB with runners in scoring position.
4. Playing a guy you admit is weaker so that he can be used in case of an emergency that may never come up seems like cutting your nose to spite your face. In the meantime, the worse hitter gets 5 plate appearences.
5. Wilson doesn't need to be a good defender to be better than Sheffield/Matsui/Giambi. I don't see any reason why he should DH over those guys.
4. There's no one on the Yankees to pinch hit for save Cano against a lefty.
Yankees1962
01-14-06, 09:33 AM
Because Beam isn't a potentially dominant reliever and Wilson isn't a bench player?
Despite all I keep hearing about his defense, DER and DRR both think he's actually fine in RF. His old UZRs are slightly below average, and that's still much better than what you are getting out of Sheffield or Matsui. He put up a 122 OPS+ in 644 plate appearences 2 years ago, right in line with his career 120 OPS+. Doesn't sound like a bench player to me. If the Pirates were dumb enough to trade him for a 25 year old A ball reliever, I'd sign on the dotted line so quick the paper might actually catch on fire.
I'm still not buying that Wilson is this defensive upgrade over Matsui and Sheffield when they're baseball publications saying the opposite about his fielding ability.
I'm still not buying that Wilson is this defensive upgrade over Matsui and Sheffield when they're baseball publications saying the opposite about his fielding ability.
He doesn't have to be a good fielder to be a better fielder than Matsui and Sheffield. Those pubs aren't comparing him to Sheffield and Matsui, after all. What STATS, Inc. says, for example, is that he is 'adequate' in RF. I'll take adequate over what Sheffield and Matsui do.
Yankees1962
01-14-06, 09:47 AM
He doesn't have to be a good fielder to be a better fielder than Matsui and Sheffield. What the pubs, like STATS, Inc., say is that he is 'adequate' in RF, for example. Adequate is better than bad.
I'm not sure if he's better than Matsui or Sheffield which isn't saying much about what I've read about his fielding ability. Have you seen this guy play a lot in RF?
I'm not sure if he's better than Matsui or Sheffield which isn't saying much about what I've read about his fielding ability. Have you seen this guy play a lot in RF?
In person? Maybe 10, 15 games. I have no doubt he's better based on both my own observations, what I've read, and the numbers. In other words, I haven't seen anything horrible, when the pubs call him things like adequate it seems like they are agreeing with me, and zone based stats that, at worst, put him maybe 4 or 5 runs below average in RF also agree with me.
From personal observation, I think Sheffield's, for example, range is worse, the pubs call him things like 'marginal', not adequate, and the zone based stats think he's about 15-20 runs below average.
It all points to Wilson being better. What you need to try to do is look at all of this available data, and when it all starts saying the same basic thing, maybe that means something.
ring403
01-14-06, 11:21 AM
Wilson has agreed to a contract with the Pirates:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06014/638007.stm
BRADENTON, Fla. -- Outfielder Craig Wilson and the Pirates last night avoided arbitration by agreeing to terms on a one-year contract with a salary believed to be in the range of $3.5 million.
Wilson, 29, made $3 million while missing all but 59 games last season because of two injuries to his left hand. He batted .264 with five home runs and 22 RBIs.This still doesn't preclude him from being traded. Actually, it may make him more attractive to potential trade partners.
ring403
01-14-06, 05:41 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5248568
The Blue Jays balked when the Pirates wanted outfielder Armando Rios for first baseman/outfielder Craig Wilson; Rios is five years away from free agency, Wilson one. The Pirates say they can afford to keep Wilson as a $3,5 million part-time player. Rival clubs are skeptical of that claim.
SINCE77 2
01-14-06, 06:04 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5248568
If they want Rios from the Jays, they will want Wang from us.
YankeePride1967
01-14-06, 06:33 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5248568
Well, this takes Wilson out of our picture.
JeffWeaverFan
01-16-06, 01:34 PM
If they want Rios from the Jays, they will want Wang from us.
Not completely sure about that. That was their initial offer and Rios has been quite an underperformer and has fell out of favor with the Blue Jays while Wang, on the other hand, performed great and is a huge favorite with the Yankees. Would they want, say, Melky Cabrera from us? And if they did, would people here make that trade?
Kulish29
01-16-06, 01:39 PM
Not completely sure about that. That was their initial offer and Rios has been quite an underperformer and has fell out of favor with the Blue Jays while Wang, on the other hand, performed great and is a huge favorite with the Yankees. Would they want, say, Melky Cabrera from us? And if they did, would people here make that trade?
Hell yes I'd do a Melky for Rios trade. But it would never happen. I doubt the Jays would want to trade withing the division.
Kulish29
01-16-06, 01:40 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5248568
I thought Rios' first name was Alexis? Different Rios?
38Special
01-16-06, 02:00 PM
I thought Rios' first name was Alexis? Different Rios?
Yeah thats bad reporting
JeffWeaverFan
01-16-06, 02:07 PM
Hell yes I'd do a Melky for Rios trade. But it would never happen. I doubt the Jays would want to trade withing the division.
I meant Melky for Craig Wilson trade.
JeterRodriguezSheff
01-16-06, 02:08 PM
Not completely sure about that. That was their initial offer and Rios has been quite an underperformer and has fell out of favor with the Blue Jays while Wang, on the other hand, performed great and is a huge favorite with the Yankees. Would they want, say, Melky Cabrera from us? And if they did, would people here make that trade?
In a heart beat I would trade Melky for Wilson. Melky is nothing more than a future fourth outfielder.
JeffWeaverFan
01-16-06, 02:09 PM
Yeah thats bad reporting
Whoops, I also thought he mean Alexis.
surge511
01-16-06, 02:09 PM
In a heart beat I would trade Melky for Wilson. Melky is nothing more than a future fourth outfielder.
I would make that trade - the Pirates wouldn't.
JeffWeaverFan
01-16-06, 02:10 PM
In a heart beat I would trade Melky for Wilson. Melky is nothing more than a future fourth outfielder.
As would I. I do wonder what they would want for him. Melky and Henn for Wilson?
yanksphan
01-16-06, 04:59 PM
I thought Rios' first name was Alexis? Different Rios?
Armando Rios isn't worth Wilson's batting gloves...
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/armando-rios.shtml
:lol:
guidry36
01-17-06, 04:21 AM
I'd rather stay status quo than give up Melky or Henn, much less both, for Wilson. Wilson would offer power, but wouldn't be a defensive upgrade at 1B or RF..... with Giambi and Sheff in the lineup, there is no need to pick up an every day DH. Melky may end up being no better than a 4th OF, but he certainly could be quite good in that role..... and Henn could develop into an effective LHRP. I'd prefer making an offer to Richard Hidalgo without sacrificing prospects. DaVanon is still available, and Terrence Long, though he thrills no one (putting it mildly), wouldn't be bad for a minor league deal, either.
The FUTURE
01-17-06, 06:08 AM
I would rather trade for Alexis Rios than Craig Wilson. Rios is an upgrade defensively in RF and he would also be able to give us 20-30 games in Center. His OBP is pretty bad, but the rest of his number aren't that bad. Plus he is still very young, so we would be giving up prospects yes, but for a young guy. Rios would prob. hit 7th or 9th, hit about 10-15 HR's 70-90 RBI's and 10-20 SB's. IMO thats not bad for a 7th or 9th hitter espically with all the power we have at the top.
genius-24
01-17-06, 11:25 AM
I would rather trade for Alexis Rios than Craig Wilson. Rios is an upgrade defensively in RF and he would also be able to give us 20-30 games in Center. His OBP is pretty bad, but the rest of his number aren't that bad. Plus he is still very young, so we would be giving up prospects yes, but for a young guy. Rios would prob. hit 7th or 9th, hit about 10-15 HR's 70-90 RBI's and 10-20 SB's. IMO thats not bad for a 7th or 9th hitter espically with all the power we have at the top.
70-90 RBI's is a lot for possibly a fourth outfielder. Also last year he had 59 RBI's in 481 at bats and he only hit .271 in RISP. 70-90 RBI is lot of optimism. As a yankee IMO, I dont think he will even have more then 400 at bats b/c we still have Joe and Bernie. ;)
The FUTURE
01-17-06, 12:28 PM
70-90 RBI's is a lot for possibly a fourth outfielder. Also last year he had 59 RBI's in 481 at bats and he only hit .271 in RISP. 70-90 RBI is lot of optimism. As a yankee IMO, I dont think he will even have more then 400 at bats b/c we still have Joe and Bernie. ;)
I think if we accquired him, he would start mainly in RF, allowing Sheffield to DH. Then on days when Damon or Matsui need rest, Rios takes over for them in the field, and Bernie can DH on those days. You're right about the RBI thing, so lets lower it to say 60-75 range. Still for a potential 7th/9th hitter, I could live with that. And he would allow us to use Bernie in a Pitch-hit specialist role ONLY. :D
Even if he is used in a Reversed role, look what he brings to the bench. Solid D in all 3 OF positions, Speed and Pitch-running, and he is still very young and IMO will be a very solid player in the near future.
genius-24
01-17-06, 12:56 PM
I think if we accquired him, he would start mainly in RF, allowing Sheffield to DH. Then on days when Damon or Matsui need rest, Rios takes over for them in the field, and Bernie can DH on those days. You're right about the RBI thing, so lets lower it to say 60-75 range. Still for a potential 7th/9th hitter, I could live with that. And he would allow us to use Bernie in a Pitch-hit specialist role ONLY. :D
Even if he is used in a Reversed role, look what he brings to the bench. Solid D in all 3 OF positions, Speed and Pitch-running, and he is still very young and IMO will be a very solid player in the near future.
I woulnd mind that but...
Still, remember who is our manager....
Joe: Experience always comes before potential or whatever ;)
mjdlight
01-17-06, 01:45 PM
I woulnd mind that but...
Still, remember who is our manager....
Joe: Experience always comes before potential or whatever ;)
This brings up an interesting question. If Tony Fernandez hadn't been injured to start the '96 season, how long would it have taken Mr. Jeter to get regular at-bats at SS?
ComeBackShane47
02-14-06, 09:08 AM
I just don't get the Pirates. Wilson would be their second best hitter behind Bay, yet it looks like they arent even going to start him. The Yanks need to come in and swoop him up, and with the way the Pirates value him, it seems as if it wouldn't take anything of true value to do it. THe article in the Pitt Gazette says as much.
The Yankees have such a weak bench, and no DH. This guy can play the outfield, first base, and can even catch. I dont see how Cashman hasnt tried to acquire him yet, then again, Cashman seems to think Miguel Cairo is acceptable as the back up infielder.
TEPLimey
02-14-06, 09:49 AM
I just don't get the Pirates. Wilson would be their second best hitter behind Bay, yet it looks like they arent even going to start him. The Yanks need to come in and swoop him up, and with the way the Pirates value him, it seems as if it wouldn't take anything of true value to do it. THe article in the Pitt Gazette says as much.
The Yankees have such a weak bench, and no DH. This guy can play the outfield, first base, and can even catch. I dont see how Cashman hasnt tried to acquire him yet, then again, Cashman seems to think Miguel Cairo is acceptable as the back up infielder.
I agree that Wilson would be a good pickup for the Yanks and an improvement of Crosby. That said, two quick points:
1) What makes you think Cashman hasn't tried to acquire him?
2) What makes you think Cairo is not an "acceptable" backup infielder?
longtimeyankeefan
02-15-06, 04:26 AM
I agree that Wilson would be a good pickup for the Yanks and an improvement of Crosby. That said, two quick points:
1) What makes you think Cashman hasn't tried to acquire him?
2) What makes you think Cairo is not an "acceptable" backup infielder?
Good points, but perhaps more importantly, what makes ComeBackShane47 think that Wilson would be an improvement over Cairo as a backup IFer, as his post suggests?
ComeBackShane47
02-15-06, 10:53 AM
Good points, but perhaps more importantly, what makes ComeBackShane47 think that Wilson would be an improvement over Cairo as a backup IFer, as his post suggests?
Quite simply that Cairo is a replacement level player. Who last year posted an OPS of .620. He is not a good fielder, and is only getting older. I like Cairo as a person and I appriciate his decent year two seasons ago, but suppose Arod or Jeter get hurt or that Cano struggles in April do you really want Cairo a guy who for his career has an OBP of .318 getting 200 ABs? Certainly there are better options out there, Escalona wouldnt be any worse, plus he would cost less money.
Of course, I dont think Wilson would be a replacement for Cairo, as Wilson is not a good fielder and cant even play 2nd, 3rd, or SS, but people seem to forget how important a good bench is. The reason the Yankees were so successful from 1998-2000 is because they always had strong benches, with guys like Strawberry able to come in if someone was hurt or needed a day off. Now the Yankees have Crosby, Phillips, Cairo, Stinnet, and Williams. All replacement level players who are aging and provide little insurance if and when a regular goes down.
I like Wilson because he is a solid hitter who gets on base and has power to all fields. I dont know if Cashman has attempted to trade for him, my only assumption is that he has not from the lack of reports in the papers on the subject, but it would be a mistake to go into 2006 with the current bench and current players at DH.
27IsNext
02-15-06, 11:03 AM
Cairo isn't good defensively? Sure he's no offensive powerhouse, but I was under the impression he was good defensively.
ComeBackShane47
02-15-06, 11:44 AM
Cairo isn't good defensively? Sure he's no offensive powerhouse, but I was under the impression he was good defensively.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/cairomi01.shtml
you will see his defensive stats such as RAA, RAR, and RATE are below average and in many instances like in 2004 for the Yanks, actually cost the team runs. He can play multiple positions but not very well. He makes few errors, but thats simply because he doesn't get to many balls. All things considered he is an average to a below average fielder. Certainly not worth carrying as a defensive replacement.
27IsNext
02-15-06, 12:10 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/cairomi01.shtml
you will see his defensive stats such as RAA, RAR, and RATE are below average and in many instances like in 2004 for the Yanks, actually cost the team runs. He can play multiple positions but not very well. He makes few errors, but thats simply because he doesn't get to many balls. All things considered he is an average to a below average fielder. Certainly not worth carrying as a defensive replacement.
His 2004 UZR was up there though (I'd like to say +20?). MGL critices these defensive metrics in this interview (http://yankeefan.blogspot.com/2006/02/interview-with-mgl.html), saying they don't use PBP data, which limits its value.
ComeBackShane47
02-15-06, 01:51 PM
His 2004 UZR was up there though (I'd like to say +20?). MGL critices these defensive metrics in this interview (http://yankeefan.blogspot.com/2006/02/interview-with-mgl.html), saying they don't use PBP data, which limits its value.
I think everyone can agree that though great improvements in defensive statistics over the past few years, they are still far from accurate, but regardless of Cairo's defense, which I dont think anyone would argue he is a great defensive player, his offense, if he is allowed to play frequently, will cost the Yankees runs and ultimately wins. On top of that he will make a million dollars this season, and though it is not my money, and nor is it a huge deal for the Yankees, they have guys in the farm such as Escalona who will probably be equal to Cairo with the bat and glove and cost 1/3 of what Cairo does.
But bringing all this back to Wilson....
When guys go down, and the always do, the Yankees dont have the pieces to replace them. Wilson, who could also double as a DH, can play first, the corner outfield positions, and catch (meaning in the playoffs there is no need to carry 3 catchers). It is doubtful that the Yankees will make a move to get Wilson, simply because they seems content with what they have, yet one tweaked groin by Jeter or a bad slide by Damon, and we will all see how badly the Yankees need a good bench.
27IsNext
02-15-06, 02:10 PM
I think everyone can agree that though great improvements in defensive statistics over the past few years, they are still far from accurate, but regardless of Cairo's defense, which I dont think anyone would argue he is a great defensive player, his offense, if he is allowed to play frequently, will cost the Yankees runs and ultimately wins. On top of that he will make a million dollars this season, and though it is not my money, and nor is it a huge deal for the Yankees, they have guys in the farm such as Escalona who will probably be equal to Cairo with the bat and glove and cost 1/3 of what Cairo does.
But bringing all this back to Wilson....
When guys go down, and the always do, the Yankees dont have the pieces to replace them. Wilson, who could also double as a DH, can play first, the corner outfield positions, and catch (meaning in the playoffs there is no need to carry 3 catchers). It is doubtful that the Yankees will make a move to get Wilson, simply because they seems content with what they have, yet one tweaked groin by Jeter or a bad slide by Damon, and we will all see how badly the Yankees need a good bench.
I think that, if given a limited number of ABs, Cairo will be fine. He reportedly loved working with Mattingly (who doesn't?), so I'd expect any offense here to be much better than at Shea Stadium. I agree he's by no means a starter. I'd rather him than Escalona, to be honest.
I'd love to get Wilson. As far as being content with what we have, Torre has said that he wants to use the DH position to rotate between Sheffield, Matsui, and Giambi. That signifies to me that we will get another OFer at some point.
Quite simply that Cairo is a replacement level player. Who last year posted an OPS of .620. He is not a good fielder, and is only getting older. I like Cairo as a person and I appriciate his decent year two seasons ago, but suppose Arod or Jeter get hurt or that Cano struggles in April do you really want Cairo a guy who for his career has an OBP of .318 getting 200 ABs? Certainly there are better options out there, Escalona wouldnt be any worse, plus he would cost less money.
Of course, I dont think Wilson would be a replacement for Cairo, as Wilson is not a good fielder and cant even play 2nd, 3rd, or SS, but people seem to forget how important a good bench is. The reason the Yankees were so successful from 1998-2000 is because they always had strong benches, with guys like Strawberry able to come in if someone was hurt or needed a day off. Now the Yankees have Crosby, Phillips, Cairo, Stinnet, and Williams. All replacement level players who are aging and provide little insurance if and when a regular goes down.
I like Wilson because he is a solid hitter who gets on base and has power to all fields. I dont know if Cashman has attempted to trade for him, my only assumption is that he has not from the lack of reports in the papers on the subject, but it would be a mistake to go into 2006 with the current bench and current players at DH.
Oh, Escalona would be tons worse offensively. Cairo ain't great shakes, but he's not an absolute black hole at the plate. Escalona is.
Wilson is a nice player, and would be a perfect fit if there was no Bernie Williams on the team. But since the Yanks decided to carry a washed up player out of respect, there's not really a spot for this type of player- unfortunately.
How many teams can consider their back-ups to be acceptable long-term replacements for their starters?
And on a stacked team like the Yankees, the drop-off to a back-up position player is always going to seem more severe.
Cairo is a very economical -- and capable -- veteran back-up. He carried our infield on his back at crucial times just two years ago. I trust him in the short-to-medium term if Jeter, Cano or ARod go down for a few games. Which is what you want from a veteran who is used to intermittant playing time. If it stretches out longer than we would like, then that is the time IMO to start mixing in a rookie who can be called up when the injured player goes on the DL.
And regarding Wilson, I think he is exactly the kind of player we should be looking at to upgrade the 4th OF slot from Bubba.
How many teams can consider their back-ups to be acceptable long-term replacements for their starters?
And on a stacked team like the Yankees, the drop-off to a back-up position player is always going to seem more severe.
Cairo is a very economical -- and capable -- veteran back-up. He carried our infield on his back at crucial times just two years ago. I trust him in the short-to-medium term if Jeter, Cano or ARod go down for a few games. Which is what you want from a veteran who is used to intermittant playing time. If it stretches out longer than we would like, then that is the time IMO to start mixing in a rookie who can be called up when the injured player goes on the DL.
And regarding Wilson, I think he is exactly the kind of player we should be looking at to upgrade the 4th OF slot from Bubba.
The issue with looking at a guy like Wilson instead of a Crosby is that Wilson is a terrible defender, who would make Bernie look great in CF. He can't be the 4th OF, since if he had to play consistently in the field he would hurt. He's a guy you could stick in the corner a day or two a week, or at 1B. But primarily DH. He'd be the replacement for Bernie, not Bubba. Crosby is many times more valuable to the Yanks than Bernie at this stage. Part of me would like Bernie to really struggle in the spring....
A much better target would be Jody Gerut. If he is healthy he could be an ideal 4th outfielder, a good arm, good speed, some power and excellent patience.
ComeBackShane47
02-15-06, 06:01 PM
To those that think Escalona cant hit, I only ask what evidence you have? We have evidence that Cairo cant hit, and though Shea is a pitchers park, pitchers parks seem to mainly take away power, not the ability to take a walk or get a hit. I like Cairo but a million bucks for a replacement level player is throwing away money.
Wilson is is almost the opposite of Cairo in the sense that he is a tremendous value for the money. Of course carrying 12 pitchers and Bernie handicaps this team. The 12th pitcher wont play very much and Bernie is neither a good pinch hitting option nor a viable defender. Clearly every bench player cant be an allstar, however, we can assume that players are going to miss time and the question remains who here is comfortable with Cairo, Crosby, Williams, Phillips, and Stinnet filling in when one of the starters goes down?
Go get Wilson, he shouldn't cost too much with the way the Pirates have acted towards him, and can fit in the DH rotation with Sheff, Matsui, and Giambi and give the Yankees another quality batter.
SINCE77 2
02-16-06, 11:20 AM
A much better target would be Jody Gerut. If he is healthy he could be an ideal 4th outfielder, a good arm, good speed, some power and excellent patience.
Agreed.
MTYankee23
02-16-06, 01:44 PM
A much better target would be Jody Gerut. If he is healthy he could be an ideal 4th outfielder, a good arm, good speed, some power and excellent patience.
This would be a splendid option, as would have Wilson, or both. One of these days we're going to find out how valuable a bench can be. (I remember when it was because we made good use of it, now I just hope that we don't find out because we don't have one..but then again we kind of did, see any of Tony Clark's AB's in the '04 ALCS.)
This would be a splendid option, as would have Wilson, or both. One of these days we're going to find out how valuable a bench can be. (I remember when it was because we made good use of it, now I just hope that we don't find out because we don't have one..but then again we kind of did, see any of Tony Clark's AB's in the '04 ALCS.)
The first base situation in 2004 was almost surreal. We had traded Nick Johnson away for Javy, Giambi had his tumor, Travis Lee tore his labrum, John Olerud busted his foot and Tony KKlarkKK was our only option for a crucial series.
But yeah, the 2005-2006 Yankees have had the weakest bench in recent memory.
MTYankee23
02-16-06, 02:21 PM
The first base situation in 2004 was almost surreal. We had traded Nick Johnson away for Javy, Giambi had his tumor, Travis Lee tore his labrum, John Olerud busted his foot and Tony KKlarkKK was our only option for a crucial series.
But yeah, the 2005-2006 Yankees have had the weakest bench in recent memory.
I can't believe how many people are okay with our bench situation going into this season. 1-8 the lineup is stacked. But the DH, and backup OF, IF, and C slots are verrrrry shaky. Its like putting a great safety system in a car, but forgetting to install a safety belt.
Of course we are carrying at least 2 grossly overpaid 5 starters and a couple too many long relievers. So that makes something critical like making sure we have a little insurance in case one of our 30+ position players needs a week off a little bit of a luxury.
27IsNext
02-16-06, 02:33 PM
To those that think Escalona cant hit, I only ask what evidence you have? We have evidence that Cairo cant hit, and though Shea is a pitchers park, pitchers parks seem to mainly take away power, not the ability to take a walk or get a hit. I like Cairo but a million bucks for a replacement level player is throwing away money.
The Yankees have never been too high on Escalona. His '04 and '05 Columbus numbers aren't too shabby, but before that he's never had anything resembling a good season. Phillips may be your prototypical AAAA player, but for some reason, the Yankees (particularly Stick Michael) seem to think he could be a suitable MLB player. They aren't acting the same way in regards to Felix.
Cairo's numbers in Yankee Stadium from 2003 - 2005: .310/.365/.450/.815
BANZAIMATSUI
02-16-06, 02:42 PM
I meant Melky for Craig Wilson trade.
JeffWeaverFan, I cannot access the private message you sent me regarding my fantasy league. Email me with your questions to jadevine@optonline.net.
thanks
BobbyMurcerFan
02-17-06, 12:28 AM
You have to evaluate prospects, and that usually falls under the general heading of "Upside/Potential."
Now you don't have to be a sage to point out that upside is often not met, and that in a few other cases it's greatly exceeded.
Fine, but to value upside/potential as essentially worthless would make for some very suspect trades, IM(NS)HO.
38Special
02-17-06, 12:05 PM
haha someone asked if Escalona can hit
haha
haha someone asked if Escalona can hit
haha
No kidding. I think he can hit as same as Miguel Cairo, if not better. Cairo's career line is .251/.296/.324. He hit .265/.313/.373 in 2003-2005. It just shows that his 2004 performance was a fluke.
I am not saying we should put Escalona on the bench either. I rather give the spot to someone who have the potential to hit, like Kevin Howard.
No kidding. I think he can hit as same as Miguel Cairo, if not better. Cairo's career line is .251/.296/.324. He hit .265/.313/.373 in 2003-2005. It just shows that his 2004 performance was a fluke.
I am not saying we should put Escalona on the bench either. I rather give the spot to someone who have the potential to hit, like Kevin Howard.
Accept that Howard's a lefty and it seems the most value you can get out of this position is a right handed hitter who can sit Cano against some lefties.
yanksphan
03-18-06, 09:39 AM
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/sports//s_434540.html
Pirates eye Matt Clement
BRADENTON, Fla. -- Craig Wilson's days with the Pirates could be numbered. According to a major-league source, the Pirates are trying to trade Wilson, their 29-year-old outfielder/first baseman, for a veteran pitcher that would shore up their rotation. One target could be Boston Red Sox right-hander Matt Clement, a Butler High School graduate.
At least four clubs are believed to be interested in acquiring Wilson before the start of the regular season.
In return for Wilson, a bench player they profess to deeply covet, the Pirates are hoping to snag an experienced pitcher who would replace Kip Wells in the starting rotation.
Damn...nobody wants Jaret or Carl, eh? ;)
noneckwilliams
03-18-06, 04:19 PM
I
When guys go down, and the always do, the Yankees dont have the pieces to replace them. Wilson, who could also double as a DH, can play first, the corner outfield positions, and catch (meaning in the playoffs there is no need to carry 3 catchers). It is doubtful that the Yankees will make a move to get Wilson, simply because they seems content with what they have, yet one tweaked groin by Jeter or a bad slide by Damon, and we will all see how badly the Yankees need a good bench.
It seems Cash has been disinterested in putting together a decent bench in recent years. It's odd considering that it would be one place where you'd think Tampa wouldn't be likely to meddle.
destiNY
03-19-06, 11:36 AM
I meant Melky for Craig Wilson trade.
My mid-season pick up for the JPDNYY contest is Craig Wilson:D
destiNY
03-19-06, 11:38 AM
The Yankees have never been too high on Escalona. His '04 and '05 Columbus numbers aren't too shabby, but before that he's never had anything resembling a good season. Phillips may be your prototypical AAAA player, but for some reason, the Yankees (particularly Stick Michael) seem to think he could be a suitable MLB player. They aren't acting the same way in regards to Felix.
Cairo's numbers in Yankee Stadium from 2003 - 2005: .310/.365/.450/.815
Phillips is playing well in spring training. We definately need to see what he can do this year...
ShaneTravis
05-28-06, 10:09 AM
Bump
There are a bunch of members here that are staunch supporters of Craig Wilson and I noticed this in the Pitt Tribune.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/pirates/s_455798.html
With Sean Casey on the verge of being activated from the disabled list, Craig Wilson realizes his days of starting at first base are numbered.
Could his days with the Pirates be numbered as well?
Wilson hasn't openly lobbied for a trade, but he presumably wouldn't object to one after he loses his starting job. Asked Saturday afternoon whether he would welcome a trade once Casey reclaims his position, Wilson offered a succinct answer.
"I want to play."
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