View Full Version : The New "Yankee Stadium"
Quangormo
01-03-06, 09:52 AM
Field of Schemes has several remarks that were made about the proposed new "Yankee Stadium." They show the weakness of the case in favor of it. These quotes show that so many of the claims made for the necessity of the new ballpark are just plain wrong.
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/tendumbest-2005.html
Asked at a Bronx community board meeting why the New York Yankees can't refurbish Yankee Stadium instead of the public spending $400 million to build a new stadium in a public park, New York City Economic Development Corporation vice-president Hardy Adasko said that in a renovated stadium, it would be impossible to provide "an adequate number of ladies' rooms." Somebody must have forgotten to tell the Boston Red Sox: Recent renovations have gotten the even older and more cramped Fenway Park to the point where team officials bragged it now "leads the league in restrooms."
At a Bronx "town meeting," Borough President Adolfo Carrion lectured local residents who were booing plans for a new Yankees stadium, "The purpose of a public hearing is for people to ask questions!" A few minutes later, Carrion called the meeting to a close and fled the podium, with at least twenty audience members who'd signed up still waiting to ask their questions.
At a press conference announcing plans to tear down Yankee Stadium and replace it with a newer model across the street, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said that the Yankees "have needed a new ballpark for some time" because the current House That Ruth Built "fails to reflect the glamour of the club."
Bloomberg said that without a new stadium, the city would have to spend "hundreds of millions of dollars" on upkeep of Yankee Stadium, but did not provide specifics. A city official later revealed that this was the cost of upgrading Yankee Stadium to be "on par with other first class major league baseball facilities located around the country" - in other words, the cost of renovation, not maintenance.
Yankees president (and former city deputy mayor) Randy Levine insisted at a public hearing, "We love the present Yankee Stadium," but "it's not going to last ten years" - conveniently ignoring the findings of the city's own buildings commissioner in 1998 that "there's no reason why Yankee Stadium can't be around for another 75 years if it's maintained properly."
And:
http://www.ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/doubleplay.html
YankeeClemens22
01-03-06, 09:56 AM
I'm in favor of keeping the old stadium for history's sake, but I would strongly prefer this NOT to become a circus. All of the press and scandal associated with it would place a black eye on the team, IMO.
DandyAndy46
01-03-06, 10:00 AM
I love Yankee Stadium for many reasons, the history, the atmosphere, etc...but, I think that building a new stadium is the right thing to do...granted my tax dollars aren't being used to help fund the infrastructure improvements associated with the new stadium
Also, the new parks have so much more to offer and if the Yanks continue to win then the new stadium will create it's own mystique and aura...
Quangormo
01-03-06, 10:03 AM
I love Yankee Stadium for many reasons, the history, the atmosphere, etc...but, I think that building a new stadium is the right things to do...granted my tax dollars aren't being used to help fund the infrastructure improvements associated with the new stadium
Also, the new parks have so much more to offer and if the Yanks continue to win then the new stadium will create it's own mystique and aura...
You obviously didn't read the quotes above. What will the new ballpark give you that the current one can't? Not a thign, if they do some strategic renovation.
DandyAndy46
01-03-06, 10:03 AM
Field of Schemes has several remarks that were made about the proposed new "Yankee Stadium." They show the weakness of the case in favor of it. These quotes show that so many of the claims made for the necessity of the new ballpark are just plain wrong.
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/tendumbest-2005.html
And:
http://www.ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/doubleplay.html
I don't think these quotes show that building a new stadium is wrong, they merely suggest that the new stadium does not have 100% support in NYC
keithf1
01-03-06, 10:08 AM
They are keeping the old stadium as a museum, no? I think that would be pretty neat and the new stadium is just going to be a modern day Yankee Stadium. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. It's always hard to see change but usually it is for the best.
DandyAndy46
01-03-06, 10:14 AM
You obviously didn't read the quotes above. What will the new ballpark give you that the current one can't? Not a thign, if they do some strategic renovation.
You know that NYC owns Yankee Stadium right? Well the Yankees are going to own the new Yankee Stadium and thus help unload some of the burden of maintanence from the city...
also, you say that if the city does some strategic renovation...what does that mean...closing down the stadium for two years and having the Yanks play in Shea??? No thanks....what happens if another chunk of concrete falls from the upper deck like it did in the 1990s and the Yanks have to play a week or two in Shea...can you imagine the lost revenue and the expense of repairing such a thing....again when you consider the costs of maintaining a facility vs. building a new one I think building a new stadium makes more sense
Quangormo
01-03-06, 10:15 AM
It's always hard to see change but usually it is for the best.
Usually it isn't.
DandyAndy46
01-03-06, 10:17 AM
Usually it isn't.
Perhaps from your point of view it isn't but the evidence you offer seems to suggest that building a new stadium does increase attendance and revenue as well so I don't understand the issue here...
keithf1
01-03-06, 10:23 AM
Usually it isn't.
Says who? You? Don't be so pesimistic.
keithf1
01-03-06, 10:24 AM
Anyone have a link to the model of the new stadium?
noneckwilliams
01-03-06, 10:27 AM
They are keeping the old stadium as a museum, no? I think that would be pretty neat and the new stadium is just going to be a modern day Yankee Stadium. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. It's always hard to see change but usually it is for the best.
The current Yankee Stadium will be torn down. There's no way that NYC will keep a huge, potentially valuable parcel of land sitting there as a "museum". Hopefully they can do something respectful and interesting in terms of preserving the history of the site. The site of the old Montreal Forum is now a mall food court. Yuck.
As for the new stadium, from the sketches I've seen it looks disappointingly generic.
DandyAndy46
01-03-06, 10:28 AM
Anyone have a link to the model of the new stadium?
Here you go...
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-ystad-sg,0,2748290.storygallery?coll=ny-yankees-utility
QueenGRH
01-03-06, 10:35 AM
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=84497&highlight=Yankee+Stadium
PlsDontTearDownY.S.
01-03-06, 10:47 AM
I'm in favor of keeping the old stadium for history's sake, but I would strongly prefer this NOT to become a circus. All of the press and scandal associated with it would place a black eye on the team, IMO.
If they're going to build a new one, something that unfortunately from my perspective looks unavoidable, then they should tear down the old one. Tradition doesn't mean s*** compared to money, so why not raze it and build something profitable there?
Dr. Gonzo
01-03-06, 11:29 AM
I am scared the new one isn't going to look that good. I have a bad feeling it may be similair to the new comiskey.
26 and counting
01-03-06, 12:42 PM
I am scared the new one isn't going to look that good. I have a bad feeling it may be similair to the new comiskey.
I was just going to say the same thing myself. It looks like the way that New Comiskey looked when they first opened it in about 1993. The whole thing was blue, and very plain. However, at least they've done a decent job renovating it into looking something more interesting. I hope that the new Yankee Stadium has more character than what we see in the pictures. Also, the upper deck seats look to be extremely far away from the field.
Steph19
01-03-06, 01:06 PM
My only problem with the new Yankee Stadium is how ugly it is. I really hope they re-think the whole "new and old" idea. The old stadium is really nice and if they want to go with the retro look (like most new parks do today), then go all the way. Don't just build a brown wall and drop the new park inside of it.
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/379534p-322297c.html
Bronx beep playing hardball on new Yankee Stadium plan
BY BILL EGBERT
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
As the approval process for the new Yankee Stadium plan winds up,
Bronx Borough President Adolfo Carrión made his pitch last week to
leverage the project for support of his broader development agenda.
Ten days after a stormy public hearing on a plan the local community
board voted down, Carrión signed off on the proposal to build a new
stadium on parkland across the street from the House That Ruth Built.
But the approval came attached to a wish list of initiatives long
championed by the borough president's office, plus a demand to
preserve community access to parks and athletic fields.
"We can't miss this opportunity to get this right," Carrión said.
snip
slickknick
01-03-06, 01:59 PM
The new stadium is inevitable. Hopefully, the look of the old will be somehow "engineered" into the design of the new one. I don't think the old one should be kept as a museum and at the same time it should not be razed to the ground right away either. We all know that NYC real estate is at a premium and the old Stadium grounds could be put to better or perhaps more profitable use than a museum. That said, I would love to own a piece of it (what a money maker!). Think of the revenue for a brick, a seat or a patch of the infield.
Regarding the new stadium. The money would be in the corporate luxury box seats. The Yanks would stand to gain millions more in the added box seats and the added retail space. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are more than double the corporate box seats in the new stadium plan. The money the Yankees use to build the stadium, under current rules of MLB, will count against the total shared revenue paid to the other teams. More luxury box seats + More Retail space + Less revenue sharing = mo money, mo money, mo money! I have no problem with that. It's "our" money, we should be able to spend it on "our" team (well, really it's George's money/team - but you know what I mean).
More money to spend, means more key free agent signings. Again, I have no problem with this. Some purists or fans of other teams out there can argue this point. But as long as the money is coming in (or more of it) and Steinbrenner's heart is beating, the spending will continue. I like it.
If you build it, they will continue to come.
Says who? You? Don't be so pesimistic.
What he means (I think) is that new stadiums that are publicly funded are usually a disaster for the city, but great for the owner. Of the major sports stadiums built over the last 10 years, I think only two have been profitable for the city, and those were the two that had the biggest contributions from the owner. I've seen the chart, but I can't find it, so don't :link: me.
That being said, I don't think this stadium will be terrible for the city. The Yankees are providing most of the funding (700 mil to the city's 400, i think). Also, a reason to build instead of renovate is that the city owns part of yankee stadium so they would have to pay for the renovation as well.
Mean Linguine
01-03-06, 02:59 PM
A new stadium will be better for Steinbrenner and the people who run the Yankees. This has nothing to do with the fans.
In fact, if you think it's ridiculous that the ticket you bought for $23 in 1996 is $110 today, wait until you see what they charge for the new park.
Renovating the Stadium would make the most sense historically. The Yankees just want a sweeter deal. From a business point of view, I don't blame them. But don't tell us it's a gift to the fans.
keithf1
01-03-06, 03:23 PM
Here you go...
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-ystad-sg,0,2748290.storygallery?coll=ny-yankees-utility
Thanks very much.
keithf1
01-03-06, 03:24 PM
The current Yankee Stadium will be torn down. There's no way that NYC will keep a huge, potentially valuable parcel of land sitting there as a "museum". Hopefully they can do something respectful and interesting in terms of preserving the history of the site. The site of the old Montreal Forum is now a mall food court. Yuck.
As for the new stadium, from the sketches I've seen it looks disappointingly generic.
I thought I read when this news came out that the old Yankee stadium would be turned in to a museum. Is that inaccurate?
noneckwilliams
01-03-06, 04:09 PM
I thought I read when this news came out that the old Yankee stadium would be turned in to a museum. Is that inaccurate?
I had heard something along those lines as well - but think about it. Is it realistic to think that a large hunk of real estate will sit there undeveloped serving as merely a "museum" for tour groups? I think there will be some kind of historic remnant and museum put up on the site but an entire unused ballpark can't sit there forever.
They may be telling people now that the old Stadium will survive but I don't see how it would last much beyond the opening of the new park.
noneckwilliams
01-03-06, 04:13 PM
A new stadium will be better for Steinbrenner and the people who run the Yankees. This has nothing to do with the fans.
In fact, if you think it's ridiculous that the ticket you bought for $23 in 1996 is $110 today, wait until you see what they charge for the new park.
Renovating the Stadium would make the most sense historically. The Yankees just want a sweeter deal. From a business point of view, I don't blame them. But don't tell us it's a gift to the fans.
Exactly. This is all about luxury boxes. In fact the capacity of the new stadium will be less than the current YS making it probably impossible for them to ever draw as many fans (in the new park) as they did this year. From the sketch I saw it looks like there may be luxury boxes behind the monumments in the OF.
SupaYankee13
01-03-06, 05:12 PM
Here's a better link for everyone (I have it bookmarked):
http://www.ballparktour.com/New_Yankee_Stadium.html
As a fan who doesn't live in New York, I am somewhat saddened that they're building a new Yankee Stadium, mostly because I have yet to attend a game there (I'm working on a 2008 visit, after I graduate from college). But I can't wait to see the new Yankee Stadium, though. I'm for it because of the whole money thing and how we won't have to share revenue. I'm willing to put down a decent amount of money for a seat because the Yankees keep winning....How much is an outfield seat this season? I know the price is gonna change, but I'm willing to pay however much it's gonna be when the new stadium opens because I don't mind contributing to a winning team.
Feel free to rip me if I don't know what I'm talking about, haha
Evil Empire
01-03-06, 05:30 PM
I'm cool with it either way.
I can't wait for the new Stadium. I love Yankee Stadium, but primarily because the Yankees play there. As a result, I will love the new Yankee Stadium too.
The reality is that the new Stadium will be truer to the original one than the current one -- and will be a modern facility, unlike the current incarnation. Anyone who has waited in line for concessions at the current Stadium, used a bathroom there, or has been stuck in Deegan traffic on their way in or out should welcome the new Stadium without hesitation.
There is nothing fan-friendly about the current Yankee Stadium. I will miss it because I have experienced so much there, but it's condition is beyond renovation and is really not befitting a team of the Yankees' stature.
The Yankees are a world class team on the biggest stage in the world. They shouldn't be playing in a worn-out, patched-together shell of of a structure.
Quangormo
01-04-06, 02:57 PM
Perhaps from your point of view it isn't but the evidence you offer seems to suggest that building a new stadium does increase attendance and revenue as well so I don't understand the issue here...
Not in Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati...
New ballparks are not automatic attnedance increasers. Adn why do the Yankees need a new ballpark anyway?
Yankee Stadium can be renovated. If George is willing to put up money for a new ballpark, why isn't he willing to put up money to renovate? George has been trashing The House That Ruth Built for 20 years, and too many Yankee fans have been buying it. Yet the Yankees' attendance keeps going oup without a new ballpark.
Quangormo
01-04-06, 03:00 PM
Exactly. This is all about luxury boxes. In fact the capacity of the new stadium will be less than the current YS making it probably impossible for them to ever draw as many fans (in the new park) as they did this year. From the sketch I saw it looks like there may be luxury boxes behind the monumments in the OF.
The current ballpark could be fitted for luxury boxes, but George doesn't want to do that.
Dr. Gonzo
01-04-06, 05:31 PM
I remembering reading that a very "scary" part of yankee stadium is the way that the upper deck leans over the field. Players noted that they felt the fans were on top of them.
I wish they would keep that feature, but it is doubtful, as they will set the tier back for the field level seats.
I have a bad feeling that this stadium, not the shell part, will be a bust.
I agree that I will love any stadium that the yanks play in, I just want them to do it right.
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-04-06, 08:09 PM
The current ballpark could be fitted for luxury boxes, but George doesn't want to do that.
That's not true. I mean, sure they could add more than what they have. But it's simply not possible to get as many luxury boxes through renovation as you can get by building a new stadium. That's the driving force behind almost every new stadium in every sport. And from the teams' perspective, it's a pretty compelling economic force. There's simply a lot of money older stadiums can't be retro-fitted to get, and the current yankee stadium is no exception.
Quangormo
01-05-06, 12:50 AM
The Yankees don't need luxury boxes. But if you pull the seats in around the plate from 1B to 3B, deepen CF, and turn the whole mezzanine into luxury boxes, you can get almost as many as the new ballpark is supposed to have. You have to be a little creative.
But heck, we drew almost 4 million. What do these folks want?
PeteRFNY
01-05-06, 01:03 AM
The people behind Field of Schemes.com are such vitriolic extremeists in thier opposition to ANY and ALL stadiums that require even minimal public funding that it becomes abundantly clear rather quickly that they have thier own agenda over there. Any success stories are ignored or skewed to prove their point. After all, they have books to sell and activist groups to keep happy...right?
The concept of "renovating" current Yankee Stadium is a nice thought, but not very realistic. Exactly how can the current Stadium be fitted for luxury boxes? Not easily. You have a 30-year-old shell built on a 83-year-old frame. Looking at the current construction - they'd have to do away with the entire mezzanene section, tear everything out, rebuild it from scratch. You couldn't do construction like that AND play baseball in the same Stadium at the same time. What's the other option - play at Shea? I see THAT disaster happening again (not).
Let's be honest here and think for a moment: who hasn't gone to Yankee Stadium and ended up swearing up a blue streak because they couldn't get around the lines at the concession stands to get to their seats? You don't find problems like that at new Stadiums, because the logistics are based on modern times and needs, not ones of the 1930s and 40s. The current interior has very little walking space. They'd need to expand the outer walls of the Stadium to fix that. Where will they go? Out to the platform of the 4 train?
Anyone else marvel at that huge crack that runs up and down the wall of the main escalator? It's a wonderous thing to behold.
I love Yankee Stadium as much as the next guy - I really do - but I'm not so blind that I'll kid myself. The "renovation" of the mid-70s was a joke. Aside from the green grass and blue seats, they killed every bit of charm that existed at "old" Yankee Stadium. All they needed to do was lay down Astroturf as the cherry on the sundae.
Bottom line is, for all the bitching, moaning, whining and agenda-driven BS coming out of places like FOS.com, the new Stadium is going to get built, one way or the other. It may take some doing - mainly because of the expected opposition - but it's going to get done.
And I bet people end up liking it.
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-05-06, 01:04 PM
The Yankees don't need luxury boxes.
The yankees don't need anything. What they want is more money. I don't think it's unreasonable for a business to want to make more money.
But if you pull the seats in around the plate from 1B to 3B, deepen CF, and turn the whole mezzanine into luxury boxes, you can get almost as many as the new ballpark is supposed to have. You have to be a little creative.
Again, you're wrong. The magnitude of boxes built into new stadiums simply can't be retrofitted into current ones. Teams don't build half-billion dollar stadiums for their health. They do it because it gives them access to new and very lucrative revenue streams. There's not really disagreement on the fact that new stadiums generate much more money for teams than renovations do, creative or not.
But heck, we drew almost 4 million. What do these folks want?
They want more money. You don't have to like it. You can oppose putting public funds towards it (I'd be right there with you on that). But I don't understand why you're having such a hard time grasping that George sees a way to make a boatload of money and is jumping at it.
keithf1
01-05-06, 01:49 PM
Didn't the Yankees lose like 50 million last year? I'm not sure if that even includes the luxury tax. I don't think it will hurt at all to make some more money off the stadium. Luxury tax % goes up each time you violate the salary cap regulations right? At what point, do you guys think Steinbrenner actually starts to feel the losses?
Irabu's Son
01-05-06, 02:10 PM
Would it be impossible to turn the entire Mezzanine into luxury boxes??
Dr. Gonzo
01-05-06, 03:36 PM
Would it be impossible to turn the entire Mezzanine into luxury boxes??
I would say the loge is your best bet.
DandyAndy46
01-05-06, 03:57 PM
Not in Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati...
New ballparks are not automatic attnedance increasers. Adn why do the Yankees need a new ballpark anyway?
Yankee Stadium can be renovated. If George is willing to put up money for a new ballpark, why isn't he willing to put up money to renovate? George has been trashing The House That Ruth Built for 20 years, and too many Yankee fans have been buying it. Yet the Yankees' attendance keeps going oup without a new ballpark.
Hmm....I wonder why people don't go to Detroit, Pittsburgh, or Cincy....it's because they are bad teams...what about San Fran? What about Safeco...
You're right about one thing, a new park does not automatically increase attendance, but a good team in a new ballpark does....
Yes, Yankee stadium can be renovated until the cows come home but it will remain an old stadium, you're still going to have to repair chunks of concrete and other assorted major repairs....
Next...You know why Yankee Stadium is such a home-field advantage...it's cause the team is good. Listen I love the history of the stadium but the fact is the renovation in the 70's altered a lot of "historical" aspects of the stadium. I love going to Yankee Stadium and watching the Yanks, but truth be told the Stadium is a dump compared to the newer stadiums and no matter how many times you "renovate" it you're still restricted by the original construction of the 1920's
Finally, as anyone who has ever restored an old home will know, it's much easier (and cheaper) to build a new home than restore an old one...
The Giants are at near sell out since they moved to the new stadium--almost impossible to get a ticket (w/o going through a broker, of course)
Mean Linguine
01-05-06, 04:42 PM
The people behind Field of Schemes.com are such vitriolic extremeists in thier opposition to ANY and ALL stadiums that require even minimal public funding that it becomes abundantly clear rather quickly that they have thier own agenda over there. Any success stories are ignored or skewed to prove their point. After all, they have books to sell and activist groups to keep happy...right?
The concept of "renovating" current Yankee Stadium is a nice thought, but not very realistic. Exactly how can the current Stadium be fitted for luxury boxes? Not easily. You have a 30-year-old shell built on a 83-year-old frame. Looking at the current construction - they'd have to do away with the entire mezzanene section, tear everything out, rebuild it from scratch. You couldn't do construction like that AND play baseball in the same Stadium at the same time. What's the other option - play at Shea? I see THAT disaster happening again (not).
Let's be honest here and think for a moment: who hasn't gone to Yankee Stadium and ended up swearing up a blue streak because they couldn't get around the lines at the concession stands to get to their seats? You don't find problems like that at new Stadiums, because the logistics are based on modern times and needs, not ones of the 1930s and 40s. The current interior has very little walking space. They'd need to expand the outer walls of the Stadium to fix that. Where will they go? Out to the platform of the 4 train?
Anyone else marvel at that huge crack that runs up and down the wall of the main escalator? It's a wonderous thing to behold.
I love Yankee Stadium as much as the next guy - I really do - but I'm not so blind that I'll kid myself. The "renovation" of the mid-70s was a joke. Aside from the green grass and blue seats, they killed every bit of charm that existed at "old" Yankee Stadium. All they needed to do was lay down Astroturf as the cherry on the sundae.
Bottom line is, for all the bitching, moaning, whining and agenda-driven BS coming out of places like FOS.com, the new Stadium is going to get built, one way or the other. It may take some doing - mainly because of the expected opposition - but it's going to get done.
And I bet people end up liking it.
You make a very good case for a new stadium, but Wrigley and Fenway are doing just fine with their old buildings.
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-05-06, 05:11 PM
The Giants are at near sell out since they moved to the new stadium--almost impossible to get a ticket (w/o going through a broker, of course)
The Giants were sold out for more than 10 years before moving to Giants Stadium (not counting the Yale bowl years). It's certainly a better place than Shea, Yankee and Yale, but it's not the reason they have a full house.
The Giants were sold out for more than 10 years before moving to Giants Stadium (not counting the Yale bowl years). It's certainly a better place than Shea, Yankee and Yale, but it's not the reason they have a full house.
San Francisco ;)
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-05-06, 05:26 PM
San Francisco ;)
My bad. :doh:
That park is really really nice. And they serve Gordon Biersch beer - yum!
Not a problem.
I've never been. Candlestick and Oakland a lot; Pacbell (or whatever it's called these days) never :(
PeteRFNY
01-05-06, 07:47 PM
You make a very good case for a new stadium, but Wrigley and Fenway are doing just fine with their old buildings.
You're talking about two special sets of circumstances when you discuss Wrigley and Fenway. Watch film of a game played at either stadium from the 1930s. You're basically looking at the same exact stadiums.
Now, look at film of a Yankee game from the 1930s. Is that the same stadium?
Imagine if someone had gotten the bright idea in 1974 to rip down the shells of either Wrigley or Fenway and rebuld it on top of the same foundations. Part of this great plan in Boston was to take the green monster and put it behind home plate. In Chicago, they grew the ivy on top pf the center field scoreboard.
That's what you essentially have with the current (new) Yankee Stadium. A decent enough ballpark that has had most of the pre-1976 charm renovated out of it.
I'm not saying that the current Stadium is without charm - of course it is. But to cling to it like an orphan being removed from a foster home when it's already been screwed around with (and to its' detriment, I might add) when it can actually be IMPROVED upon to a great degree - seems kind of silly.
And for all the charm of Wrigley and Fenway, they are not without thier own problems. Who can forget the sight of Wrigley's upper deck being covered in nets to keep two-ton chunks of concrete from falling on the people below? That was only a few years ago. Due to the constraints of the space at Fenway, in order for them to make additions, they keep having to build UP. Soon, they'll have seats OVER the field - hovering from bungee chords attached to the Good Year blimp. And let's not forget the ever-present Fenway "hint-o-urine" that seems to permeate certain areas of the joint.
Try and think of it as the difference between living in a really nice house - or an unbelieveably superb house that has everything you want in it. You can pass up the nicer accommodations out of a sense of emotional attachment, or move into your dream house.
Some may take the first option and stay where they're at, but me - I'm all about marble bathroom fixtures and those fancy gold-covered faucets.
Mean Linguine
01-06-06, 01:03 PM
You're talking about two special sets of circumstances when you discuss Wrigley and Fenway. Watch film of a game played at either stadium from the 1930s. You're basically looking at the same exact stadiums.
Now, look at film of a Yankee game from the 1930s. Is that the same stadium?
Imagine if someone had gotten the bright idea in 1974 to rip down the shells of either Wrigley or Fenway and rebuld it on top of the same foundations. Part of this great plan in Boston was to take the green monster and put it behind home plate. In Chicago, they grew the ivy on top pf the center field scoreboard.
That's what you essentially have with the current (new) Yankee Stadium. A decent enough ballpark that has had most of the pre-1976 charm renovated out of it.
I'm not saying that the current Stadium is without charm - of course it is. But to cling to it like an orphan being removed from a foster home when it's already been screwed around with (and to its' detriment, I might add) when it can actually be IMPROVED upon to a great degree - seems kind of silly.
And for all the charm of Wrigley and Fenway, they are not without thier own problems. Who can forget the sight of Wrigley's upper deck being covered in nets to keep two-ton chunks of concrete from falling on the people below? That was only a few years ago. Due to the constraints of the space at Fenway, in order for them to make additions, they keep having to build UP. Soon, they'll have seats OVER the field - hovering from bungee chords attached to the Good Year blimp. And let's not forget the ever-present Fenway "hint-o-urine" that seems to permeate certain areas of the joint.
Try and think of it as the difference between living in a really nice house - or an unbelieveably superb house that has everything you want in it. You can pass up the nicer accommodations out of a sense of emotional attachment, or move into your dream house.
Some may take the first option and stay where they're at, but me - I'm all about marble bathroom fixtures and those fancy gold-covered faucets.
I can't dispute any of what you're saying. But the people are going to have to pay a lot more to visit that house with the marble bathroom. And they're already paying a lot to go to the first house.
mjdlight
01-06-06, 01:21 PM
Pete
I think what I (and possibly others) fear the most about a new Yankee Stadium is that its going to be cookie-cutter. I don't want something that wouldn't look out of place in middle America. This is New York. We're not about ballparks that wouldn't look out of place in a tacky exurban strip mall just outside of Omaha.
Unforunately, I think the "New" YS is going to be a atmosphere-less, generic, cold, corporate money making machine, nothing more.
And that would be a pity because I love the current YS, in spite of the cracks in the escalator. Maybe because of them. :)
Mean Linguine
01-06-06, 02:11 PM
Pete
I think what I (and possibly others) fear the most about a new Yankee Stadium is that its going to be cookie-cutter. I don't want something that wouldn't look out of place in middle America. This is New York. We're not about ballparks that wouldn't look out of place in a tacky exurban strip mall just outside of Omaha.
Unforunately, I think the "New" YS is going to be a atmosphere-less, generic, cold, corporate money making machine, nothing more.
And that would be a pity because I love the current YS, in spite of the cracks in the escalator. Maybe because of them. :)
That, and it's not the same ground that Ruth and Gehrig and DiMaggio walked on. Even though the "new" stadium was different than the old one, it was still the same location. Maybe I'm in the minority on this .... but I think that if you don't put it in the same spot, and you're going to charge an arm and leg to get in, anyway, you might as well move it to Manhattan -- where you would have a unparallelled view of the skyline behind the outfield wall.
My first choice would still be either renovating or rebuilding on the current site.
DandyAndy46
01-06-06, 02:11 PM
Pete
I think what I (and possibly others) fear the most about a new Yankee Stadium is that its going to be cookie-cutter. I don't want something that wouldn't look out of place in middle America. This is New York. We're not about ballparks that wouldn't look out of place in a tacky exurban strip mall just outside of Omaha.
Unforunately, I think the "New" YS is going to be a atmosphere-less, generic, cold, corporate money making machine, nothing more.
And that would be a pity because I love the current YS, in spite of the cracks in the escalator. Maybe because of them. :)
The schematics and artist-renderings certainly make it seem as though the new stadium is going to try to emmulate the first stadium so it wouldn't seem as though this stadium is going to be a "cookie-cutter" as you call it. And for the most part all of the new parks have their own unique features...there really hasn't been a cookie-cutter type of stadium built since the veterans stadium/busch stadiums were built back in the late 1960s
and by the way...the thing that creates the atmosphere in Yankee Stadium is the tradition of winning...if the Yanks continue to win, you will have all the atmosphere you want
Mean Linguine
01-06-06, 02:16 PM
the thing that creates the atmosphere in Yankee Stadium is the tradition of winning...if the Yanks continue to win, you will have all the atmosphere you want
That's true, but don't you think that a place like, say, the Boston Garden, despite all of its rats or whatever, was a pretty special place? I don't think a place like the Fleet Center could replicate that magic, even with a parquet floor and even if the Celtics won a championship. Just listen to the visiting players when they talk about visiting Yankee Stadium for the first time. They are in awe as they talk about ghosts and the cathedral, etc. They don't talk that way about Jacobs Field or Minute Maid, or any of those other new places.
DandyAndy46
01-06-06, 02:25 PM
That's true, but don't you think that a place like, say, the Boston Garden, despite all of its rats or whatever, was a pretty special place? I don't think a place like the Fleet Center could replicate that magic, even with a parquet floor and even if the Celtics won a championship. Just listen to the visiting players when they talk about visiting Yankee Stadium for the first time. They are in awe as they talk about ghosts and the cathedral, etc. They don't talk that way about Jacobs Field or Minute Maid, or any of those other new places.
I understand what you're saying and to a certain extent it is true but if the Yanks keep winning the ghosts will float on over across the street....Mystique and Aura are products of winning baseball, if the Yanks will all will be right with the baseball gods...
Also...how many championships have been won at Minute Maid and the Jake?? First championship at the new stadium and all of this is irrelevant (which I think it is already)
Come on folks its not like the Yanks are going to start losing because they hop across the street...
You make a very good case for a new stadium, but Wrigley and Fenway are doing just fine with their old buildings.
That's the thing though. The "old building" that once was Yankee Stadium no longer exists, and has not existed since the last renovation. What is so romantic about keeping a poorly configured 30 year old shell?
PeteRFNY
01-06-06, 11:11 PM
That, and it's not the same ground that Ruth and Gehrig and DiMaggio walked on. Even though the "new" stadium was different than the old one, it was still the same location. Maybe I'm in the minority on this .... but I think that if you don't put it in the same spot, and you're going to charge an arm and leg to get in, anyway, you might as well move it to Manhattan
Well, I can understand where you are coming from because I hear that from a lot of knowledgeable baseball people both here and elsewhere ...but my reaction to that always is that you're basically saying that the GPS coordinates of Yankee Stadium are more important than the franchise history itself, which sort of shortchanges the franchise history to a degree - although I know that's not the intent.
In reality, the current field has been overhauled so many times that any remaining traces of Earl Combs' chaw juice have long since been removed and laid on some landfill. In truth, the field itself does not sit exactly where OLD Yankee Stadium's field sat anyway (I believe it was moved a few feet back and to the right to accommodate the shorter fences).
As for building the new Stadium in Manhattan, don't forget that they DID think about doing that at one point back in the mid-90s, but the uproar that followed caused the idea to be scuttled.
Besides - if they DID attempt to move to Manhattan...you think the droids over at FieldofSchemes.com are pissed off NOW - they'd be totally appoplectic - as would the majority of GPS-lovers out there. They're only trying to move across the friggin' STREET fer Chrissakes, and people are ready to bite down on the cyanide caplets.
As I said earlier, none of this is hither nor tither because in the end, the new Stadium is coming, no matter what anyone does. Personally, I'm pretty excited about it.
ZYanksRule
01-07-06, 12:47 AM
I hate the fact that they are building a new stadium, and I think I always will, but there's one thing that I LOVE about the new one.
When you go to the concessions, you will be able to see the action. That to me is really super cool
CalYankeeFan
01-08-06, 01:20 AM
I am scared the new one isn't going to look that good. I have a bad feeling it may be similair to the new comiskey.
I hear what you're saying, but in my opinion, what's out there now is better than what was floating around a few years ago....
http://forums.nyyfans.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9387
CalYankeeFan
01-08-06, 01:24 AM
I remembering reading that a very "scary" part of yankee stadium is the way that the upper deck leans over the field. Players noted that they felt the fans were on top of them.
I wish they would keep that feature, but it is doubtful, as they will set the tier back for the field level seats.
.
No way to tell what the scale really is, but you're right....from http://www.ballparktour.com/New_Yankee_Stadium.html
http://www.ballparktour.com/New_Yankee_Compare.gif
Mr. Mxylsplk
01-08-06, 08:21 AM
No way to tell what the scale really is, but you're right....
Ugh. If that's right, the mezz and upper seats will be much worse than they are now.
ring403
01-08-06, 09:54 AM
The Yankees just want a sweeter deal. From a business point of view, I don't blame them. But don't tell us it's a gift to the fans.The new Stadium is going to generate more revenue for the team. More revenue translates directly into more financial flexibility to improve the team, and it's chances for on-the-field success. THAT is a gift to the fans.
noneckwilliams
01-08-06, 10:00 AM
I remembering reading that a very "scary" part of yankee stadium is the way that the upper deck leans over the field. Players noted that they felt the fans were on top of them.
I wish they would keep that feature, but it is doubtful, as they will set the tier back for the field level seats.
I have a bad feeling that this stadium, not the shell part, will be a bust.
I agree that I will love any stadium that the yanks play in, I just want them to do it right.
My favorite thing about YS is the steep incline of the tier seats and that they hang over the mez seemingly onto the field. Apparently this will not be the case (see the above link and the somewhat lukewarm review of the new stadium). One of my favorite old ballparks was Detroit where the OF upper deck hung out over the field over the lower deck. I'd also like to see a return to the lower fences in the corners that the old YS had - instead of a uniforn height (7 ft) which is apparently the plan. The lower bowl of the new stadium looks like Shea Stadium to me.
noneckwilliams
01-08-06, 10:03 AM
The new Stadium is going to generate more revenue for the team. More revenue translates directly into more financial flexibility to improve the team, and it's chances for on-the-field success. THAT is a gift to the fans.
It's Yankee Stadium. There should be something special about it - not just a revenue stream machine. It's a generic looking stadium plopped into a retro facade.
mjdlight
01-08-06, 11:18 AM
The schematics and artist-renderings certainly make it seem as though the new stadium is going to try to emmulate the first stadium so it wouldn't seem as though this stadium is going to be a "cookie-cutter" as you call it. And for the most part all of the new parks have their own unique features...there really hasn't been a cookie-cutter type of stadium built since the veterans stadium/busch stadiums were built back in the late 1960s
The "concrete donut" look of Busch et. al. was the cookie cutter of that era.
But today's new stadiums, in one form or another, all seem to take their cue from Camden Yards. New era, different cookie cutter. To me, the plans for the new YS look like they're cut from the Camden Yards HOK cloth. Noneckwilliams said it perfectly, "a generic stadium plopped in a retro facade." Yup.
Just my opinion, but the run down YS of today reminds me more of gritty, "real" New York than this new YS -- whose designers seemed to have listened to same muse as the those who gave us the "new" 42nd St. The porno shops and peep shows had to go, but I think what replaced it could have been more tasteful and in the spirit of New York than the suburban Disney pastel nightmare that 42nd st. is today. And the same thing with the replacement of the glorious original Penn Station, with what they call "Penn Station" today :)
I feel the same way about this new YS. I understand that economics demands the old YS be razed and replaced, but I would have preferred something more gritty New York and less Camden Yards.
Its ok though, they're my Yankees. I'd watch them in anything.
noneckwilliams
01-08-06, 01:49 PM
You're
And for all the charm of Wrigley and Fenway, they are not without thier own problems. Who can forget the sight of Wrigley's upper deck being covered in nets to keep two-ton chunks of concrete from falling on the people below? That was only a few years ago. Due to the constraints of the space at Fenway, in order for them to make additions, they keep having to build UP. Soon, they'll have seats OVER the field - hovering from bungee chords attached to the Good Year blimp. And let's not forget the ever-present Fenway "hint-o-urine" that seems to permeate certain areas of the joint.
.
They said Fenway couldn't be renovated but from my perspective that's pretty much what they done in the last 4 years. The place is much different than it used to be and much more a revenue producer than it used to be. I live about 3 blocks from Fenway and the lights are on every night because they are doing construction over there (which they started the second they lost to the WS in game #3). The 600 Club is being ripped down (thank god, it sucked to watch a game from there) an additional premium seating is being added. It also looks like they are perhaps adding seating somewhere in RF? IMO the Yankees have a much better starting point for renovation than the RS did (nothing will change the crappy, "face the wrong way" seats in the RF grandstand at Fenway).
ring403
01-08-06, 02:32 PM
It's Yankee Stadium. There should be something special about it - not just a revenue stream machine. It's a generic looking stadium plopped into a retro facade.I guess I'm in the minority that couldn't care less about the proper "character" of the place. It's "special" to me because the Yankees play there, regardless of what it looks like.
I care alot more about winning baseball games.
justinvarnes
01-08-06, 02:52 PM
I guess I'm in the minority that couldn't care less about the proper "character" of the place. It's "special" to me because the Yankees play there, regardless of what it looks like.
I care alot more about winning baseball games.
I happen to fall somewhere in the middle:
Knowing that Bernie Williams has patrolled the same outfield as DiMaggio and Mantle is something that is awe-inspiring as a fan.
However, once you realize how often the stadium has been renovated, and how each season the field gets torn up and re-planted, with lots of underground tunnels and different drainage systems, you start to realize that it really is more a general "space" that exists where these players are linked.
It doesn't look like the "old" yankee stadium anymore anyway. With the padded blue walls and goofy spaces in between the OLD homerun walls, etc. there is alot to be desired about the current stadium.
That being said, I am excited about a new stadium where NEW memories will be created...especially since they aren't tearing up the "space" where the original yanks played.
PeteRFNY
01-08-06, 11:20 PM
Knowing that Bernie Williams has patrolled the same outfield as DiMaggio and Mantle is something that is awe-inspiring as a fan.
However, once you realize how often the stadium has been renovated, and how each season the field gets torn up and re-planted, with lots of underground tunnels and different drainage systems, you start to realize that it really is more a general "space" that exists where these players are linked.
It doesn't look like the "old" yankee stadium anymore anyway. With the padded blue walls and goofy spaces in between the OLD homerun walls, etc. there is alot to be desired about the current stadium.
That being said, I am excited about a new stadium where NEW memories will be created...especially since they aren't tearing up the "space" where the original yanks played.
That's exactly where I sit on the issue - whenever I hear someone say something like "Bernie is in the same outfield that DiMaggio played in"...well, maybe he passes through the same air, but other than being on the same block, it's FAR from being the "same outfield".
They ripped the entire thing up so many times that the only resemblence it has to being the "same outfield" is that it happens to be DIRT.
And it's probably not even the same type of dirt.
m_sisca
01-09-06, 03:15 AM
That's exactly where I sit on the issue - whenever I hear someone say something like "Bernie is in the same outfield that DiMaggio played in"...well, maybe he passes through the same air, but other than being on the same block, it's FAR from being the "same outfield".
They ripped the entire thing up so many times that the only resemblence it has to being the "same outfield" is that it happens to be DIRT.
And it's probably not even the same type of dirt.the same block, yes, same actual turf...no. but what happened inside those walls, on that field over the past century...thats reason enough to renovate the current stadium. dont get me wrong, im all for progress and whatnot, but given the great sports moments that happened there, its irreplaceable.
CalYankeeFan
01-09-06, 03:54 AM
the same block, yes, same actual turf...no. but what happened inside those walls, on that field over the past century...thats reason enough to renovate the current stadium. dont get me wrong, im all for progress and whatnot, but given the great sports moments that happened there, its irreplaceable.
I agree...yes the interior has changed....but think of all that has happened there. Don't take it for granted, ask people who appreciate and know the game, and won't let any bias they may have get in the way, what park they'd like to see a game in...To stand in monument park, realizing how far away the walls USED to be, it will never be replicated...and I'm not doing it justice here.
Dr. Gonzo
01-09-06, 07:54 AM
Pete
I think what I (and possibly others) fear the most about a new Yankee Stadium is that its going to be cookie-cutter. I don't want something that wouldn't look out of place in middle America. This is New York. We're not about ballparks that wouldn't look out of place in a tacky exurban strip mall just outside of Omaha.
Unforunately, I think the "New" YS is going to be a atmosphere-less, generic, cold, corporate money making machine, nothing more.
And that would be a pity because I love the current YS, in spite of the cracks in the escalator. Maybe because of them. :)
that is my fear, that it will become a US cellular field type mistake. That what it looks like now from the renderings
WTrain44
01-09-06, 09:33 AM
No way to tell what the scale really is, but you're right....from http://www.ballparktour.com/New_Yankee_Stadium.html
http://www.ballparktour.com/New_Yankee_Compare.gif
Now in the upper deck we will be a mile from the field like at Shea. Thats one of the worst things about Shea stadium and now we are adopting it... great.
No matter how many championships they win in a new stadium, its not Yankee stadium and the tradition of the stadium is not there.
What happened within those walls is what makes Yankee Stadium great. For the team to make more money is not a gift to me. Seeing a game in the same park, even with renovations, that my grandpa saw the Babe play in and my Dad grew up watching Mickey play in is the gift.
Kulish29
01-09-06, 10:01 AM
Not in Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati...
New ballparks are not automatic attnedance increasers. Adn why do the Yankees need a new ballpark anyway?
Yankee Stadium can be renovated. If George is willing to put up money for a new ballpark, why isn't he willing to put up money to renovate? George has been trashing The House That Ruth Built for 20 years, and too many Yankee fans have been buying it. Yet the Yankees' attendance keeps going oup without a new ballpark.
Where exactly do the Yankees play while the Stadium is being renovated? I doubt people want to got to Queens and watch the Yankees play their "home games" there.
The Yankee Stadium that stands today is not the Stadium that was when Ruth and Gehrig were playing in. It's no longer the "House that Ruth built". It hasnt been for about 30+ years now.
I love the Stadium too, but the Yankees, and their fans, deserve a new Stadium with up to date, state of the art facilities.
Kulish29
01-09-06, 10:04 AM
Now in the upper deck we will be a mile from the field like at Shea. Thats one of the worst things about Shea stadium and now we are adopting it... great.
No matter how many championships they win in a new stadium, its not Yankee stadium and the tradition of the stadium is not there.
What happened within those walls is what makes Yankee Stadium great. For the team to make more money is not a gift to me. Seeing a game in the same park, even with renovations, that my grandpa saw the Babe play in and my Dad grew up watching Mickey play in is the gift.
The thing is, it's no longer the Stadium your Grandfather and Father used to watch games in. It's been renovated since then.
WTrain44
01-09-06, 10:33 AM
Where exactly do the Yankees play while the Stadium is being renovated? I doubt people want to got to Queens and watch the Yankees play their "home games" there.
I'd rather see them play 2 years in Shea than forever in a new stadium.
The stadium now is more the stadium of old than the new one will be. There are still many elements that are the same. Is a restored classic car still a classic if you put a new engine and transmission in it and give it a new paint job? Yes. Yankee Stadium is more than just a ballpark, its a tradition and shouldn't be abandoned- it should be restored.
shutout
01-09-06, 11:54 AM
I never visited Yankee Stadium (I've never been in the USA actually). In 2006 or 2007 I, hopefully, will attend college 1 semester in the USA: I hope to catch my first Yankees game in Yankee stadium than.
Anyway: one could say "if you've never been in Old Yankee stadium, why do you care?". The thing is: I would like to visit the house that ruth build, before they build a New Yankee Stadium.
When are they planning to build the new stadium? It will take quite some years of course, so I probably won't have a problem if I want to visit the old stadium.
Áfter I visited the 'old' stadium, they've got my permission to build a new one ;) It would probably be good for the Yankees as a franchise that they build a new, top of the notch, stadium.
BTW: those pictures on that link look good imo. I like the new stadium: as long as they wait until this youngman visited the old stadium
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