Top Ten Heavyweights [Archive]

Mean Linguine

12-30-05, 12:28 PM

Did you guys catch the Bert Sugar Top 10 heavyweights list on ESPN Classic over Xmas?
10. Holmes
9. Frazier
8. Foreman
7. Charles
6. Marciano
5. Tunney
4. Dempsey
3. Johnson
2. Ali
1. Louis

No question that it's between Ali and Louis for the top spot, but I would have had Holmes a lot higher, maybe even third. Tunney and Charles wouldn't be on my list, but Holyfield and Tyson would.
What do you guys think?

Irabu's Son

01-01-06, 02:13 PM

Tyson yes, Holyfield never.

Mean Linguine

01-02-06, 09:54 AM

Tyson yes, Holyfield never.

Although Tyson had a three-year stretch where he was unbelievable, Holyfield's overall career was more impressive. I don't think you can include one without the other -- particularly since Holyfield beat him twice. And Tyson wasn't old when he lost to Holy, he was only 30.
The thing that made guys like Ali and Louis and Holmes and Holyfield and Frazier and Marciano so special was that even after they were knocked down, they'd get right back up. Sometimes they'd get up and win the rest of the round. Guys like Tyson and Lewis would get knocked down and stay down. But you can't ignore that 3-year-period where Tyson was basically an untouchable Sandy Koufax. I would put Holy at 9 and Tyson at 10 and put Tunney and Charles somewhere in the next 10.

1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Holmes
4) Marciano
5) Foreman
6) Dempsey
7) Johnson
8) Frazier
9) Holyfield
10) Tyson

Irabu's Son

01-02-06, 12:02 PM

Holyfield's last 5 years have ruined his legacy IMO.

Not that Tyson's last 5 years haven't ruined his, but at least he knows he's had it.

JeffWeaverFan

01-02-06, 02:29 PM

I agree with the first two guys on the list, but after that, I've got some problems.

The following is all IMO, of course.

Jack Johnson should be nowhere near #3. In fact, I don't even know if he should be on the list. Larry Holmes should be much better than #10. Putting Ezzard Charles right near Rocky Marciano is also weird. It is my understanding that Rock beat him twice and the fights weren't close - so why should Charles be right under Marciano? And, didn't Joe Walcott beat Charles while Marciano beat both those guys? So, Charles shouldn't even be in the top 10. Lastly, I don't understand why Tunney gets the nod over Rocky Marciano.

So, all in all, I don't like that list very much.
1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Dempsey
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Foreman
7. Frazier
8. Tyson

Something like that. I like my top 5 and am not sure after that.

Xhibit

01-02-06, 04:02 PM

My list goes something like this:

Ali
Louis
Foreman
Dempsey
Holmes
Lennox Lewis
Tyson
Marciano
Frazier
Evander

Ali gets the edge over Louis because of who he fought and defeated, fighters like Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Robinson, and so forth. That time period cfosidered Heavyweight boxings glory era, and rightfully so. Foreman probably isn't #3 on anyone else's list but he was an absolute Terror prior to the "Rumble In the Jungle". He absolutely dominated the division en route to becoming the champ, and he absolutely OBLITERATED Frazier twice, neither of their fights lasting more than 2 rounds with Foreman knocking Frazier down, and finally out, about a billion times between the two fights. After he lost to Ali he had I think one more fight and the left the sport, which ultimately did his career a disservice. But imo he should also get credit for recapturing the title at age 46, a ridiculous feat, even though it happened in a weak era, but still.

hardrain

01-02-06, 06:28 PM

It's so hard to judge boxers I haven't seen in person, but fortunately I get to see all these old fights on DVD because I work freelance as a researcher for ESPN Classic and I am actually one of the scriptwriters and the researcher for Brian Kenny on these Classic Ringside Shows with Bert Sugar.

The days are long, but it's a dream job. As long as I have done my work ahead of time, it's fun going drinking with Bert in Brooklyn after the days' shooting at Gleason's Gym is over.

The plan is to do a lot of these. Joe Louis is next and I am preparing that package now.

My Top 10:

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Marciano
Frazier
Johnson
Tunney
Langford
Dempsey
Charles
Foreman

JeffWeaverFan

01-02-06, 07:04 PM

Hey Phil, I didn't know that you did that for a job. That's awesome. So do you know Brian Kenny? He's my favorite ESPN guy.

hardrain

01-02-06, 07:16 PM

Hey Phil, I didn't know that you did that for a job. That's awesome. So do you know Brian Kenny? He's my favorite ESPN guy.

Ya, Brian is amazing. He has a photographic memory, he has no ego to make things harder, and he is nice to the grunts like me. He works tirelessly too.

yankeesAZ

01-02-06, 08:03 PM

Tyson should be on that list despite what many may think of him personally.

JeffWeaverFan

01-03-06, 01:18 AM

Ya, Brian is amazing. He has a photographic memory, he has no ego to make things harder, and he is nice to the grunts like me. He works tirelessly too.
He's also a Yankee fan, right?

As a guy that is close to the real world, I am thinking about the sports writing business and have applied for a job.

hardrain

01-03-06, 09:23 AM

He's also a Yankee fan, right?

As a guy that is close to the real world, I am thinking about the sports writing business and have applied for a job.

Yes. Brian is indeed a Yankee fan. Yet another reason why the guy is likeable. And being a Yankee fan at ESPN is not unlike being a member of the brave French resistance during German occupied France in World War II.

Where did you apply for a job? ESPN needs more freedom fighters (aka Yankee fans).

Mean Linguine

01-03-06, 12:27 PM

I agree with the first two guys on the list, but after that, I've got some problems.

The following is all IMO, of course.

Jack Johnson should be nowhere near #3. In fact, I don't even know if he should be on the list. Larry Holmes should be much better than #10. Putting Ezzard Charles right near Rocky Marciano is also weird. It is my understanding that Rock beat him twice and the fights weren't close - so why should Charles be right under Marciano? And, didn't Joe Walcott beat Charles while Marciano beat both those guys? So, Charles shouldn't even be in the top 10. Lastly, I don't understand why Tunney gets the nod over Rocky Marciano.

So, all in all, I don't like that list very much.
1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Dempsey
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Foreman
7. Frazier
8. Tyson

Something like that. I like my top 5 and am not sure after that.

Well done. I can live with that list. I'm biased because Holmes is a family friend and was the champ during all of my teen-age years, but his record and accomplishments stack up well against anyone's. Twenty title defenses, only knocked out once, when he was 38. Competitive fighter almost until age 50, and nearly beat McCall and Holyfield to take back his title in his 40s like Foreman. One of the best jabs in history. All those fights, and the only fight he got his butt kicked was against Tyson, after Holmes had been in retirement for 2 years and when Tyson was at the top of his game.
How can we agree so much about boxing and disagree so much about Joe Torre?! ;)

Mean Linguine

01-03-06, 12:29 PM

My Top 10:

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Marciano
Frazier
Johnson
Tunney
Langford
Dempsey
Charles
Foreman

Where's Holmes?

Mean Linguine

01-03-06, 12:35 PM

My list goes something like this:

Ali
Louis
Foreman
Dempsey
Holmes
Lennox Lewis
Tyson
Marciano
Frazier
Evander

Ali gets the edge over Louis because of who he fought and defeated, fighters like Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Robinson, and so forth. That time period cfosidered Heavyweight boxings glory era, and rightfully so. Foreman probably isn't #3 on anyone else's list but he was an absolute Terror prior to the "Rumble In the Jungle". He absolutely dominated the division en route to becoming the champ, and he absolutely OBLITERATED Frazier twice, neither of their fights lasting more than 2 rounds with Foreman knocking Frazier down, and finally out, about a billion times between the two fights. After he lost to Ali he had I think one more fight and the left the sport, which ultimately did his career a disservice. But imo he should also get credit for recapturing the title at age 46, a ridiculous feat, even though it happened in a weak era, but still.

Lennox at Number 6? That one surprises me. He was good, but kind of glass-jawed. Knocked out in his prime by journeymen Rahman and McCall. Can't really see him standing up to the other fighters on your list. I agree with the other 9 names you mentioned.

hardrain

01-03-06, 02:19 PM

Where's Holmes?

It's a tough list; Holmes is probably 11 or 12.

Mean Linguine

01-03-06, 02:41 PM

It's a tough list; Holmes is probably 11 or 12.

I'd like him to be a little higher, but OK; at least every fighter on your list is a Hall of Famer or future Hall of Famer.
I just don't see a 5 foot 8, sub-170-pound guy like Langford being able to get through Holmes' defense and jab.
And Tunney was no doubt superb. But almost all of his fights were as a light heavyweight, so I would have him on a completely different list.

hardrain

01-03-06, 03:06 PM

I'd like him to be a little higher, but OK; at least every fighter on your list is a Hall of Famer or future Hall of Famer.
I just don't see a 5 foot 8, sub-170-pound guy like Langford being able to get through Holmes' defense and jab.
And Tunney was no doubt superb. But almost all of his fights were as a light heavyweight, so I would have him on a completely different list.

I agree that it is very difficult to judge a guy like Langford. He was a true victim a racial prejudice in the post Johnson era and he never got his shot. Almost everyone was afraid to fight him. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and his due here.

Tunney got my nod for beating Dempsey twice, albeit by the long count drama in the 2nd fight. But yes, he fought before that as a LH. So if he goes on another list then I would put Holmes in at 10. I just always felt that Tunney was vastly under rated, even as a LH.

Mean Linguine

01-03-06, 03:13 PM

I agree that it is very difficult to judge a guy like Langford. He was a true victim a racial prejudice in the post Johnson era and he never got his shot. Almost everyone was afraid to fight him. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and his due here.

Tunney got my nod for beating Dempsey twice, albeit by the long count drama in the 2nd fight. But yes, he fought before that as a LH. So if he goes on another list then I would put Holmes in at 10. I just always felt that Tunney was vastly under rated, even as a LH.

Those are valid reasons, and you obviously know your boxing. But I still think that Holmes, given his 20 title defenses, his second-longest reign in heavyweight history, his chin of granite, his great jab, and his defeats of guys 20 years younger when he was in his 40s, has to be on any Top Ten list.
That's what makes these lists great, though. One man's coffee is another man's tea.

hardrain

01-03-06, 03:21 PM

Those are valid reasons, and you obviously know your boxing. But I still think that Holmes, given his 20 title defenses, his second-longest reign in heavyweight history, his chin of granite, his great jab, and his defeats of guys 20 years younger when he was in his 40s, has to be on any Top Ten list.
That's what makes these lists great, though. One man's coffee is another man's tea.

Yep. That's what makes for good conversation. I had the pleasure of meeting Larry at the shoot. Nice guy. He had a private converstaion with Teddy Atlas in the corner at one point....oh to be a fly on the wall.

You make a good argument for Larry being higher on the list...you really do.

Mean Linguine

01-03-06, 03:36 PM

Yep. That's what makes for good conversation. I had the pleasure of meeting Larry at the shoot. Nice guy. He had a private converstaion with Teddy Atlas in the corner at one point....oh to be a fly on the wall.

You make a good argument for Larry being higher on the list...you really do.

Thanks. Yes, Larry is without question the nicest celebrity I've met -- and I've met a decent amount over the years as a journalist at various papers in PA and NJ. When I was in college in PA, he let me interview him for a term paper, and we've stayed in touch over the years. He's from the Ali school, where you are nice to the fans and go out of your way to sign autographs and things like that. Boxers tend to be the most down-to-earth athletes, anyway, but he's particularly grounded. Lives in the same town. Goes to his gym every afternoon. Hangs out every Friday at his restaurant.
By the way, it was a really good production. Congratulations to you and Brian and everyone else who put it on.

hardrain

01-03-06, 04:13 PM

Thanks. Yes, Larry is without question the nicest celebrity I've met -- and I've met a decent amount over the years as a journalist at various papers in PA and NJ. When I was in college in PA, he let me interview him for a term paper, and we've stayed in touch over the years. He's from the Ali school, where you are nice to the fans and go out of your way to sign autographs and things like that. Boxers tend to be the most down-to-earth athletes, anyway, but he's particularly grounded. Lives in the same town. Goes to his gym every afternoon. Hangs out every Friday at his restaurant.
By the way, it was a really good production. Congratulations to you and Brian and everyone else who put it on.

I wish there were more like Holmes now...and I wish there wasn't the Alphabet soup nightmare of the WBA, WBC, IBF, etc. -- but that's another issue.

English Yankee

01-03-06, 06:29 PM

I'm guessing Tyson didn't make the list because he didn't do the business for a very long timespan. Nevertheless you can't talk about the top 10 heavyweights on pure fighting ability and not include him. His particular style and abilities in his prime would make him at least a match for any top 10 all time heavyweight you can name. It's not like he was a Sonny Liston, all power and limited mobility. Tyson had a middleweight's movement and outstanding hand speed. More than enough reasons from his outside the ring behaviour or career longevity to disqualify him from all time lists, but not actual boxing skills.

English Yankee

01-04-06, 05:49 PM

And Ali is top of any all-time list. :)

Mean Linguine

01-04-06, 05:55 PM

I'm guessing Tyson didn't make the list because he didn't do the business for a very long timespan. Nevertheless you can't talk about the top 10 heavyweights on pure fighting ability and not include him. His particular style and abilities in his prime would make him at least a match for any top 10 all time heavyweight you can name. It's not like he was a Sonny Liston, all power and limited mobility. Tyson had a middleweight's movement and outstanding hand speed. More than enough reasons from his outside the ring behaviour or career longevity to disqualify him from all time lists, but not actual boxing skills.

I thought he was going to go 75-0. He was awesome for a 3-year stretch. I didn't see Louis and Ali in their primes, but I couldn't imagine anybody was better than the Tyson of those three years. Having said that, if you judge his career, he drops pretty far down the list. I would still put him at 10, but people could make a pretty good argument for him being 15 or lower. It's a shame, because he probably could have been close to number one.

English Yankee

01-04-06, 10:26 PM

I thought he was going to go 75-0. He was awesome for a 3-year stretch. I didn't see Louis and Ali in their primes, but I couldn't imagine anybody was better than the Tyson of those three years. Having said that, if you judge his career, he drops pretty far down the list. I would still put him at 10, but people could make a pretty good argument for him being 15 or lower. It's a shame, because he probably could have been close to number one.

Plus there was the excitement factor with Tyson. He went out from the first bell looking to KO his opponent with every punch. Nobody had the same level of outright ferocity he produced in his prime. What a shame.

PlsDontTearDownY.S.

01-05-06, 07:17 AM

I'm guessing Tyson didn't make the list because he didn't do the business for a very long timespan.

Also he didn't have the marquee fights that guys like Frazier, Louis and Ali had. A Tyson fight was never a 15 round marathon that fight fans would talk about for the next 50 years, a Tyson fight was like watching an execution. There was never a great rivalry with Tyson until Holyfield, but that came after he did his bid and he was never the same. That was Tyson lite when he fought Holy.

Mean Linguine

01-05-06, 04:37 PM

Also he didn't have the marquee fights that guys like Frazier, Louis and Ali had. A Tyson fight was never a 15 round marathon that fight fans would talk about for the next 50 years, a Tyson fight was like watching an execution. There was never a great rivalry with Tyson until Holyfield, but that came after he did his bid and he was never the same. That was Tyson lite when he fought Holy.

Very true. He was programmed for quick destruction, not endurance. If he went past the third round, you'd wonder what was "wrong" with him. Most of the hard-punching aggressor types had relatively short reigns as champions, like Foreman and Frazier and Tyson and Dempsey and Liston. The technically sound guys who boxed and didn't turn every fight into a war, like Holmes and Ali and Louis, held onto their belts for a lot longer.

hardrain

01-05-06, 08:05 PM

For anyone who is interested, ESPN Classic will be airing Tyson Part 1 next saturday.
It's a long series...Bert Sugar, Larry Holmes and Geroge Chuvalo offer commentary.

Mean Linguine

01-06-06, 11:43 AM

For anyone who is interested, ESPN Classic will be airing Tyson Part 1 next saturday.
It's a long series...Bert Sugar, Larry Holmes and Geroge Chuvalo offer commentary.

Thanks for mentioning, I look forward to seeing that. Any chance of them doing a SportsCentury on Holmes one of these days? Or are those over at this point?

English Yankee

01-06-06, 01:22 PM

Also he didn't have the marquee fights that guys like Frazier, Louis and Ali had. A Tyson fight was never a 15 round marathon that fight fans would talk about for the next 50 years, a Tyson fight was like watching an execution. There was never a great rivalry with Tyson until Holyfield, but that came after he did his bid and he was never the same. That was Tyson lite when he fought Holy.

He was finished as soon as he went to prison, as the footwork and fitness levels can never be regained after that. He was losing it before he went to prison however. He wasn't exactly leading a monastic lifestyle between fights.

PlsDontTearDownY.S.

01-06-06, 01:30 PM

He was finished as soon as he went to prison, as the footwork and fitness levels can never be regained after that. He was losing it before he went to prison however. He wasn't exactly leading a monastic lifestyle between fights.

Who Tyson??? He was the consummate professional. Early to bed, early to rise. ;) And he was the poster boy of motorcycle safety, IIRC.

hardrain

01-07-06, 06:53 AM

Thanks for mentioning, I look forward to seeing that. Any chance of them doing a SportsCentury on Holmes one of these days? Or are those over at this point?

I'll find out for you if they are planning on doing Holmes--I have to go into NESN2 this week for a meeting.

Mean Linguine

01-16-06, 12:01 PM

Hardrain -- Caught a lot of the Tyson special yesterday. Another good effort.
Unfortunately, got dragged to a family event before the part where Holmes was commenting on Tyson. But I've probably already heard everything he said. Holmes admired how accurate Tyson was with his punches, but said that guys like Shavers and Cooney punched harder. It's pretty hard for Larry to be objective on this one, since Tyson was the only guy to knock him down more than once -- albeit after a less-than-sharp Larry came out of retirement at age 38.
I enjoyed hearing what Atlas had to say about Tyson getting special treatment and how Cus basically sold his soul to get that one last champion. But he was also honest enough to admit that were it not for Cus, Tyson might have been a lot worse off.
Watching that show, you were saddened. You realized how much power and potential this kid had, and how he always pissed away every good opportunity that came his way.

hardrain

01-19-06, 05:52 PM

No question. Tyson had unlimited potential. He could have been nearly the best. Some guys aren't meant to make it.

PlsDontTearDownY.S.

01-19-06, 07:45 PM

No question. Tyson had unlimited potential. He could have been nearly the best. Some guys aren't meant to make it.

Not saying that he's Tyson because their ring accomplishments are miles apart but do you remember Ike "The President " Ibeabuchi? His crimes and demons messed it all up before he reached his potential but that dude was one hell of a puncher, and he had rock solid chin and non stop motor...who knows how high he would have climbed. His win over David Tua was one of the best fights I have ever seen, a 12 round war that was the best heavyweight title fight since the 80s. Also he knocked defensive fighter supreme Chris Byrd the F out in 5 rounds...that's impressive. Chris Byrd never gets hit...what a shame that Ike never realized his full potential...he could have been better than Tyson, Iron Mike didn't have a chin like Ibeabuchi. But Ike did do some f'ed up chit.