View Full Version : Yanks talking to JT Snow?
ring403
12-27-05, 12:26 AM
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=118796
Meanwhile, the Sox also continue to negotiate with free agent first baseman J.T. Snow regarding a role as the backup and defensive replacement for Kevin Youkilis. Snow is believed to be negotiating with three or four other clubs, including, perhaps, the New York Yankees and Baltimore Orioles. Agent Dan Horwits said Snow could have a decision by today or tomorrow.
He'd be a great pickup.
AMYanks
12-27-05, 12:41 AM
He'd be a good pickup.
Dooley Womack
12-27-05, 12:46 AM
Would be a nice move and insurance for Giambi. I was never pleased that the Yanks didn't give him a chance as a promising youngster.
NYDCYankee
12-27-05, 01:36 AM
The new FO loves to go with kids from the farm.
grabick_luca
12-27-05, 01:43 AM
do it, come on i wanna see it, do it
IncredibleByNature
12-27-05, 02:06 AM
He'd be a good pickup.
Ditto.
drjeckyl
12-27-05, 07:34 AM
The new FO loves to go with kids from the farm.
Would be a nice move and insurance for Giambi. I was never pleased that the Yanks didn't give him a chance as a promising youngster.
FWIW, in 1992 the Yanks traded Snow along with Russ Springer and Jerry Neilson to the Angels for Jim Abbott. In deference to Dooley, I remember that trade and being thrilled to get Abbott. Snow plays excellent defense and still swings a good bat. I think we is a better alternative as Giambi's backup than Andy Phillips because Snow wouldn't be an automatic out whenever that spot in the order came to bat.
aeromac76
12-27-05, 07:46 AM
FWIW, in 1992 the Yanks traded Snow along with Russ Springer and Jerry Neilson to the Angels for Jim Abbott. In deference to Dooley, I remember that trade and being thrilled to get Abbott. Snow plays excellent defense and still swings a good bat. I think we is a better alternative as Giambi's backup than Andy Phillips because Snow wouldn't be an automatic out whenever that spot in the order came to bat.
I agree, Snow would be taking Philips' spot, his defense is unquestionable, but he bats lefty meaning we still would not have a righty hitting alternative to play first base when a tough lefty hurls and we want to spell Jason. The question is, does that matter??
I do not think so, Snow can probably hit lefties as good as Phillips, he is not helpless up there, and his defense, the real reasons for a backup, is gold glove caliber.
Also, in the just in case department, in the event we lose Jason to injury for a few weeks, Snow can play everyday for that period and would not kill us, Phillips would likely be a black hole if forced into duty every day..
Seamonk
12-27-05, 08:00 AM
Snow's best years are far behind him.
I'm sensing a 3 year contract...
I agree, Snow would be taking Philips' spot, his defense is unquestionable, but he bats lefty meaning we still would not have a righty hitting alternative to play first base when a tough lefty hurls and we want to spell Jason. The question is, does that matter??
I do not think so, Snow can probably hit lefties as good as Phillips, he is not helpless up there, and his defense, the real reasons for a backup, is gold glove caliber.
Also, in the just in case department, in the event we lose Jason to injury for a few weeks, Snow can play everyday for that period and would not kill us, Phillips would likely be a black hole if forced into duty every day..
At this juncture, he's an average defender.
He might be passable against righties for a corner player.
He's useless against lefties.
His inability to play any position but first means the Yankees are still stuck with no way to rest Sheffield and Matsui.
Pass.
Yankees1962
12-27-05, 08:11 AM
I agree, Snow would be taking Philips' spot, his defense is unquestionable, but he bats lefty meaning we still would not have a righty hitting alternative to play first base when a tough lefty hurls and we want to spell Jason. The question is, does that matter??
I do not think so, Snow can probably hit lefties as good as Phillips, he is not helpless up there, and his defense, the real reasons for a backup, is gold glove caliber.
Also, in the just in case department, in the event we lose Jason to injury for a few weeks, Snow can play everyday for that period and would not kill us, Phillips would likely be a black hole if forced into duty every day..
I'm not interested in Snow, I think Phillips can do as well as him at this time for less money. I bet he signs for more than one year which is even more reason to pass on him.
At this juncture, he's an average defender.
He might be passable against righties for a corner player.
He's useless against lefties.
His inability to play any position but first means the Yankees are still stuck with no way to rest Sheffield and Matsui.
Pass.
In terms of first baseman who can play the outfield, Eduardo Perez, Daryl Ward, BJ Surhoff and Kevin Millar are the only guys on the market.
Craig Wilson may be a good trade option.
None of these guys are particularly good with their gloves.
In terms of first baseman who can play the outfield, Eduardo Perez, Daryl Ward, BJ Surhoff and Kevin Millar are the only guys on the market.
Craig Wilson may be a good trade option.
None of these guys are particularly good with their gloves.
You don't need someone to play all 3. You just need someone who can play the outfield against righties and a 1B who can play against lefties. That basically allows you to split DH in 3 between Matsui, Sheffield, and Giambi.
FWIW, in 1992 the Yanks traded Snow along with Russ Springer and Jerry Neilson to the Angels for Jim Abbott. In deference to Dooley, I remember that trade and being thrilled to get Abbott. Snow plays excellent defense and still swings a good bat. I think we is a better alternative as Giambi's backup than Andy Phillips because Snow wouldn't be an automatic out whenever that spot in the order came to bat.Phillips is not an automatic out. Please look at his minor-league numbers before making statements like that. He also has had very limited exposure in the majors (40ABs?), so that is not even worthy of the title "small sample-size".
Would be a nice move and insurance for Giambi. I was never pleased that the Yanks didn't give him a chance as a promising youngster.
What? To push aside Don Mattingly who was a great fielder even after his back problems caused a decline in his hitting, which even then was superior to that of Snow. Why would you want Snow and Mattingly both, when both had great gloves? Snow never has had the power to be a DH.
Seamonk
12-27-05, 08:50 AM
Phillips is not an automatic out. Please look at his minor-league numbers before making statements like that. He also has had very limited exposure in the majors (40ABs?), so that is not even worthy of the title "small sample-size".
At his age there's a reason he's had limited exposure in the majors.
Like he doesn't belong there...
At his age there's a reason he's had limited exposure in the majors.
Like he doesn't belong there...You're saying that based on what? The fact that he hasn't made it yet?
This is getting ridiculous (not aimed at you). Give the guy a chance - he's put up MASSIVE AA/AAA numbers for two years now. He is a decent backup.
Snow's best years are far behind him.
I'm sensing a 3 year contract...
Very funny. What, pray tell, have the Y's done this off season that would suggest giving Snow a 3 year contract? You can hardly compare him to Damon or Farnsworth. You would compare him to Bernie, if you thought about it first.
I would be opposed to this for the reasons BJG said, however.
Also, for a further detailed discussion of why (IMO) Phillips is a decent backup, see this thread:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=91550&highlight=%5DCashman
It's all in there.
RhodeyYankee2638
12-27-05, 09:00 AM
I really don't see how we can consider Phillips a decent backup or not. He will probaboyl get over 100 games in as a DH/1B. No telling how his stats both defensively and offensively would look
ryanthe13th
12-27-05, 09:50 AM
Just say no to JT Snow.
keithf1
12-27-05, 09:51 AM
I don't feel comfortable with Phillips playing any other role than late inning defensive replacement. I'd radther have a proven major league hitter.
However, I don't think JT Snow is the answer either. Too old, too much money.
YankClipper5
12-27-05, 10:30 AM
While I am on the fence about Snow, I do not want to see Phillips with any permanent role on the Yankees. He simply can't compete at the major league level. Lots of guys can hang numbers in the minors and fail at the major league level. I just don't think a championship caliber team has a spot for Phillips. I am confident that Giambi can hit lefties better than Phillips. I am confident Snow can hit lefties better than Phillips. I am confident Snow can flash a better glove than Phillips. I understand Phillips has had a small sampling in the majors but a lot of it has to do with how overmatched he has looked at the plate.
While I am on the fence about Snow, I do not want to see Phillips with any permanent role on the Yankees. He simply can't compete at the major league level. Lots of guys can hang numbers in the minors and fail at the major league level. I just don't think a championship caliber team has a spot for Phillips. I am confident that Giambi can hit lefties better than Phillips. I am confident Snow can hit lefties better than Phillips. I am confident Snow can flash a better glove than Phillips. I understand Phillips has had a small sampling in the majors but a lot of it has to do with how overmatched he has looked at the plate.You just disproved your own assertion! You say it's a small sample size, yet you say he's overmatched. Let him get some consistent playing time, he'll hit...
Whatever happened to getting younger, faster, and better defensively? JT Snow is a great first basemen, but he certainly isn't young and definetly not fast. Although, he would fit right in with the rest of the moves Cash has made this winter.
HughesIsNasty
12-27-05, 10:41 AM
I'v been saying they should get Snow for a while now
goin for 27
12-27-05, 10:58 AM
Snow would be a very capable backup to Giambi, and an upgrade from Tino of last year, and Andy Phillips for sure.
He should not cost a ton, his defense is very good, though likely no longer gold glove material.
Do it.
No way to Snow. last year, in about 400 appearances, hit .275/.343/.365, with a whopping 4 HRs. Ugh. If they wanted an older 1B who can play D, Tino, even in his decline, was a much more productive option.
I'll take my chances that Phillips can exceed that.
You've gotta consider that a reason Phillips has been in the minors so long might just be that he's in the Yankees system, not that he's poor: if he were, say, a Devil Ray, he might've gotten a shot a few years back.
yogibuck
12-27-05, 11:07 AM
I would rather put money on acceptable risks in the bullpen.
For the money you can spend on Snow, you can let Phillips backup, or in a pinch, bring up Duncan (E or S) and stick two live, but possible erratic or injured arms at AAA. I'd also get Bernie some time at first during spring training just in case Giambi gets injured.
I'd sign such arms such as Boroski, W. Miller, T. Armas, etc. Hoping that they have rebound years and can help us out in the pen.
You're saying that based on what? The fact that he hasn't made it yet?
This is getting ridiculous (not aimed at you). Give the guy a chance - he's put up MASSIVE AA/AAA numbers for two years now. He is a decent backup.
Seamonk is a met fan pretending to be a Yankee fan. Its not worth it gdn.
YankClipper5
12-27-05, 11:37 AM
You just disproved your own assertion! You say it's a small sample size, yet you say he's overmatched. Let him get some consistent playing time, he'll hit...
Think of what I said in comparison to Melky. His sample size was fairly small, but he looked out of his league, which is precisely the situation with Phillips, not to mention Phillips is substantially older than Melky so he has pretty much progressed to where he will be, after his time in the minors he should have good numbers. I am not knocking his minor league numbers but I really don't think he has what it takes. He isn't worth the roster spot IMO. If Giambi goes down for a week or more, do you really feel comfortable with Phillips at 1B? And whats worse is that if Giambi is down for a substantial amount of time we will be forced to trade and get dragged over the coals midseason or sign a DFA type of player. In times of plenty, prepare for times of need. Secure the best roster we can now and we will fare better than the past 2 seasons where we had to scramble at the deadline because we had glaring holes.
Think of what I said in comparison to Melky. His sample size was fairly small, but he looked out of his league, which is precisely the situation with Phillips, not to mention Phillips is substantially older than Melky so he has pretty much progressed to where he will be, after his time in the minors he should have good numbers. I am not knocking his minor league numbers but I really don't think he has what it takes. He isn't worth the roster spot IMO. If Giambi goes down for a week or more, do you really feel comfortable with Phillips at 1B? And whats worse is that if Giambi is down for a substantial amount of time we will be forced to trade and get dragged over the coals midseason or sign a DFA type of player. In times of plenty, prepare for times of need. Secure the best roster we can now and we will fare better than the past 2 seasons where we had to scramble at the deadline because we had glaring holes.Melky is no Phillips... yet. Phillips minor league numbers blow Melky's out of the water. Additionally, Melky looked lost in CF and was overmatched at the plate because he was rushed. Phillips hasn't been rushed. He just hasn't been given a chance. If you look at the thread I linked to above, I looked at his progress year-by-year to see why he wasn't called up sooner. Simply put, there was no room at all. He mashed and mashed at AAA, putting up ridiculous OBPs. He needs more than 40ABs to settle in at the major league level. He deserves that one shot, IMO and comes cheap too. He's not a bad fielder, either.
Think of what I said in comparison to Melky. His sample size was fairly small, but he looked out of his league, which is precisely the situation with Phillips, not to mention Phillips is substantially older than Melky so he has pretty much progressed to where he will be, after his time in the minors he should have good numbers. I am not knocking his minor league numbers but I really don't think he has what it takes. He isn't worth the roster spot IMO. If Giambi goes down for a week or more, do you really feel comfortable with Phillips at 1B? And whats worse is that if Giambi is down for a substantial amount of time we will be forced to trade and get dragged over the coals midseason or sign a DFA type of player. In times of plenty, prepare for times of need. Secure the best roster we can now and we will fare better than the past 2 seasons where we had to scramble at the deadline because we had glaring holes.
The only meaning you can really pull out of Phillips age at this point is that, over the course of a whole season, this is probably as good as he's going to get. In other words, he's not projectable in a long term sense. That doesn't mean that he, or any player, is going to walk in the door and have no adjustment to a new level.
ZIPS projects .260/.326 /.471 for Phillips. That's certainly above replacement level.
Yankyfan
12-27-05, 12:23 PM
I like Snow and being he's an old Yankee farm hand who defense is second to non I'm kind of upset because I had hope Andy would get a real shot this year.
YankClipper5
12-27-05, 01:10 PM
I understand the idea that Phillips MAY perform a lot better than he has in his limited major league exposure, however it is a question mark. I just feel that it would be important to get a veteran and erase any doubt. Phillips will not get the everyday at bats to get his bat going, because Bernie will likely take on the DH role, especially given how much Joe likes him. Rather than risk it on Phillips and be forced to admit failure midseason and pay a king's ransom for a backup 1b because thats what teams will ask of the Yankees, why not get someone right now? I have nothing against Phillips but the 1B role will be a strange one for the Yankees because they will play more often than most backups but not often enough to get consistant plate appearances, IMO. I don't think it is a good environment for Phillips.
Yankyfan
12-27-05, 01:45 PM
How are you so sure JT will do well with such limited play? I don't doubt his glove but he's used to being a starter.
JeffWeaverFan
12-27-05, 01:47 PM
I think this quote from the 2005 Baseball Prospectus book fits well here:
"But sometimes it pays to take a tactical risk rather than bet on the definitively mediocre."
Now that was in reference to Robinson Cano vs. Tony Womack and that is not a fair comparison to Phillips vs. Snow, but I think Andy Phillips deserves a shot.
Yankyfan
12-27-05, 01:51 PM
I like the fact Andy is a righty also.
Trade Bubba Crosby for hee-sup Choi.
and Sign Eric Byrnes
Yankyfan
12-27-05, 02:11 PM
Byrnes will get more money and playing time else where.I like his game but would be suprised to see him in pinstipes.
YankClipper5
12-27-05, 02:16 PM
How are you so sure JT will do well with such limited play? I don't doubt his glove but he's used to being a starter.
He is a vet who has already proved himself at the major league level, that is owed a certain degree of trust. Phillips on the other hand is someone who needs to be developed into a major league caliber player and typically that doesn't happen when in a role that will be as limited as his. I also fear Joe overworking Giambi out of not wanting to use Phillips so much.
If Giambi goes down for a week or more, do you really feel comfortable with Phillips at 1B? And whats worse is that if Giambi is down for a substantial amount of time we will be forced to trade and get dragged over the coals midseason or sign a DFA type of player.
The thing is, J.T. Snow is a "DFA type of player".
Kulish29
12-27-05, 02:35 PM
Trade Bubba Crosby for hee-sup Choi.
and Sign Eric Byrnes
Why would the Dodgers trade Choi to the Yankees for someone they basically gave to the Yankees a few years ago?
Also, why would Eric Byrnes sign with the Yankees when there are places where he could get a lot more playing time? And why should the Yankees sign Eric Byrnes considering they have pretty much the same player, albeit left handed, in Bubba Crosby?
They'd be better served letting Phillips play 1B/DH and keeping Crosby as a 4th OF'er.
Crusadecat
12-27-05, 03:17 PM
I think that if the Yankees plan to offer him anything more than a 1 year contract they would be doing something foolish. I'd rather give Phillips the chance or go with someone else.
StatenIslandYankee
12-27-05, 03:23 PM
Now that would be a good pickup.
Irabu's Son
12-27-05, 03:31 PM
You're saying that based on what? The fact that he hasn't made it yet?
This is getting ridiculous (not aimed at you). Give the guy a chance - he's put up MASSIVE AA/AAA numbers for two years now. He is a decent backup.
I tried to fight this fight regarding Fernando Seguignol about 3 years ago and ended up getting RO'd. Not worth it. But I do agree with you.
I tried to fight this fight regarding Fernando Seguignol about 3 years ago and ended up getting RO'd. Not worth it. But I do agree with you.Really? Hmm ok, I'll let it go. He's doing just fine in my 2k5 team, for what it's worth :p
YankeePride1967
12-27-05, 04:39 PM
I like this idea.
keithf1
12-27-05, 04:48 PM
One of the few benefits of getting JT Snow would be that so Boston can't.
One of the few benefits of getting JT Snow would be that so Boston can't.
That could also be a disadvantage. Boston would likely be much better off just playing Youkilis and Petagine.
Mr. Mxylsplk
12-27-05, 05:12 PM
That could also be a disadvantage. Boston would likely be much better off just playing Youkilis and Petagine.
Yeah, I really don't see how Snow would help Boston.
longtimeyankeefan
12-27-05, 05:41 PM
Just say no to JT Snow.
Andy Phillips, if given the chance, is going to produce some ML numbers. They may not be .300/.400/.500, but we are talking the backup 1Bman here, not the starting 1Bman.
guidry36
12-27-05, 06:15 PM
Andy Phillips should be given a chance this year. He is out of options..... and too talented to lose without seeing what he can do at the major league level. Batting RH and being able to play multiple positions in an emergency don't hurt, either. The Yankees can't negotiate with Tino Martinez until May 1, but Tino would likely jump at the chance to return if Phillips doesn't work out. A backup 1B would be much easier to trade for than most other positions.
yogibuck
12-27-05, 06:28 PM
If the Yanks sign J. T. to anything other than a minor league contract, it would surprise me. They have roster inflexibility already unless they cut some folks or place some on the DL.
5 starters
RJ
Moose
Pavano
Wang
Chacon
Bullpen
Mo
Sturtze
Farns
Villone
Myers
Small
Wright
Say they carry 12 pitchers, which I think they will carry at least that many and maybe 13 at times. That leaves 13 position players.
8 starters
Dh. - Bernie?
Backup Catcher - Stinnett
Util inf - ?
5th OF - Bubba
1B-2B-3B-PH-Phillips.
So I say it is EITHER Phillips OR Snow. Not both. I would just assume give Phillips a shot and sign more arms we can stick at AAA until needed.
There aren't enough innings for regular work for 12 pitchers, let alone 13. There is no way they ever carry that many.
LeapsNbounds
12-27-05, 07:15 PM
There aren't enough innings for regular work for 12 pitchers, let alone 13. There is no way they ever carry that many.
I agree, lets not forget that Dotel is waiting in the wings. That would be 14 pitchers.
I would like to see what dotel has in AAA, if he does well, we move Wright and Sturtze in a trade to plug a mid-season problem currently facing the team.
Sturtze usually has a good first half and then we can dump him on someone else with wright. Sombody will need starting pitching & bullpen help. (hopefully not the yankees ;) )
ryanthe13th
12-27-05, 08:13 PM
I think we will be DFA Scott Proctor very soon if we can't trade him. The Yankees trading Sturtze is unlikely to me since he is one of Joe's Boys and can be effective if used in the correct way. A bullpen of Rivera, Farns, Sturtze, Villone, Myers, Dotel, Wright, and Small is pretty formidable. If Proctor can bring us a bench player he'll be traded, and if not he will be DFA. There's no reason, nor is there any room to keep him on the team.
drjeckyl
12-27-05, 08:41 PM
Phillips is not an automatic out. Please look at his minor-league numbers before making statements like that. He also has had very limited exposure in the majors (40ABs?), so that is not even worthy of the title "small sample-size".
Ok.. I'll give you that Phillips was a stud in the minors, in his 7 year minor league career, he has played in 665 games and has a 296 average with a whopping 516 slugging percentage. For the record, at the ML level, Andy has played in 32 games (48 AB) and has a dismal 167 average with a meager 375 slugging percentage. I agree that it is a small sample size, but from what I've seen, he has trouble hitting the curve and until I've seen him hit the curve, I will continue to think of him as an automatic out at the ML level becasue that's all ML pitchers will throw until he has proven that he can hit that pitch. Besides, think about it, there is a reason why a 28 year old "prospect" has only 48 AB at the ML level.
Heck,if Phillips and Snow are my options to backup Giambi, this is an easy decision.
longtimeyankeefan
12-27-05, 09:26 PM
I agree, lets not forget that Dotel is waiting in the wings. That would be 14 pitchers.
I would like to see what dotel has in AAA, if he does well, we move Wright and Sturtze in a trade to plug a mid-season problem currently facing the team.
Sturtze usually has a good first half and then we can dump him on someone else with wright. Sombody will need starting pitching & bullpen help. (hopefully not the yankees ;) )
My guess is that Dotel begins the season on the 60-day DL, opening a spot on the 40-man roster and making him available around June 1st. Gives the Yankees roster flexibility and Dotel a chance to finish his rehab.
Of course, if he comes out of ST throwing darts, I want him from day one.
BroadwayBomber55
12-28-05, 02:42 AM
I like to have J.T. Snow on the team, but he won't accept the backup role. He wants to start.
One of the few benefits of getting JT Snow would be that so Boston can't.
Im pretty scared at the fact they might get a guy that slugged about the same as Millar did last year.
Yankees1962
12-28-05, 04:17 AM
Im pretty scared at the fact they might get a guy that slugged about the same as Millar did last year.
Are you serious? If so, the Yankees will have to be in a pretty pitiful state if they're ever scare of a guy that slugged .365 that plays a power position.
TheScooter
12-28-05, 04:44 AM
They claim they are not seeking a first baseman to split time with Jason Giambi (Andy Phillips is slated for that role)
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1135755381108110.xml&coll=1
justinvarnes
12-28-05, 07:33 AM
I think Phillips is perfect for the role of backup 1B. Cashman made a comment to the effect that he didn't want another station-to-station player. this implies that Phillips has ok speed for a 1B. That likely makes his role to pinch run for Giambi in the 7th or 8th innings, then come back and finish the game as 1B.
Outside of that, Giambi will get an occasional day off, giving Phillips 100 - 150 AB's for the season. This rests Giambi, provides replacement level offense and defense, and saves the team $$ and prospects.
Another point about Phillips: I keep reading the rebuttal of "how come he's 28 and only had 48 ML AB's?".
That is simple: He is a good player, but not a STUD. for the past 5 years, our 1st base has been filled with Tino, then IMMEDIATELY upgraded to MVP caliber with Giambi. Also standing in front of him was Nick Johnson.
How good would Phillips have to be to bump those guys?
The point does stand, however, that if he were cut out to be the next great thing, he would have been asked for more often (he has been asked for, just not much) in trades.
So I think he will be a fine backup 1B. Cairo's coming here per several reports, and I am happy with this team going into ST. (save Durazo at DH, but I've given up on that since with the importance of starting with 12 pitchers will mean we will need more flexibility out of our few bench players).
YankClipper5
12-28-05, 09:24 AM
I don't know about Phillips, I would like to see more of Giambi at 1b because statistically he is better there than at dh, but he will definitely need his spells at dh and if he goes down for a while I will be scared having Phillips there, what about earlier rumors on Joe Randa? He seems like a logical choice although I would imagine he could find a starting role elsewhere, but he has a decent bat and can backup 1b and 3b.
Ok.. I'll give you that Phillips was a stud in the minors, in his 7 year minor league career, he has played in 665 games and has a 296 average with a whopping 516 slugging percentage. For the record, at the ML level, Andy has played in 32 games (48 AB) and has a dismal 167 average with a meager 375 slugging percentage. I agree that it is a small sample size, but from what I've seen, he has trouble hitting the curve and until I've seen him hit the curve, I will continue to think of him as an automatic out at the ML level becasue that's all ML pitchers will throw until he has proven that he can hit that pitch. Besides, think about it, there is a reason why a 28 year old "prospect" has only 48 AB at the ML level.
Heck,if Phillips and Snow are my options to backup Giambi, this is an easy decision.Yes, except the 7 year statement is misleading. Here's my post from the other thread:
Ok, let me get this straight. You're saying there are NO good pitchers in AA/AAA?
Let me give you his AA numbers:
2001 (first time in AA):
183ABs, 6HR, 25RBIs, .268AVG, .437SLG - not great, but still getting used to better pitching.
2002 (starts next year at AA):
272ABs, 19HR, 51RBIs, .305/.381/.618/.999 - gets promoted to AAA where he struggles, adjusting to the step up.
2003 he misses the whole year.
2004 (starts out at AA again):
42ABs, 4HR, 16RBIs, .357/.383/.738/1.121 - gets promoted to AAA, where he goes on to hit .318/.388. The rest of the stats (and for 2005) I've already given you.
Also:
Firstly, you really need to get with the timeline. He was drafted in 1999, starting out in the NYPL. Three years later, in 2002, he reached AAA. Pretty standard progression for a good hitter. Then, he was injured in 2003 and played in only 17 games. So 2004 was his bounce-back year when he did VERY WELL at AAA, .318/.388. Right? Ok, so his next logical step would have been a promotion to the big leagues in 2005. Except there was no room for him. So he was kept in AAA, where he continued to mash.
So, as I've said, 2006 is THE year for him. He needs to prove now that he can do it at the big league level.
I've slowly become a believer that we should allow Phillips the chance to play 60 or so games next season.
He clearly has potential and if he proves he's incapable by midseason, it won't be that hard to aquire a 1Bman with at the very least a good glove.
Also by that time we will have a better assessement of Giambi's capabilities in the field.
I really think the team would be better suited getting a left handed RFer to platoon with Phillips and keep Bernie on the bench.
I would not be surprised to find that our biggest defensive liability next year will be Sheffield and not Giambi.
yogibuck
12-28-05, 10:01 AM
LeapsNbounds Quote:
Originally Posted by BJG
There aren't enough innings for regular work for 12 pitchers, let alone 13. There is no way they ever carry that many.
I agree, lets not forget that Dotel is waiting in the wings. That would be 14 pitchers.
I would like to see what dotel has in AAA, if he does well, we move Wright and Sturtze in a trade to plug a mid-season problem currently facing the team.
Sturtze usually has a good first half and then we can dump him on someone else with wright. Sombody will need starting pitching & bullpen help. (hopefully not the yankees )
Yesterday 08:33 PM
BJG There aren't enough innings for regular work for 12 pitchers, let alone 13. There is no way they ever carry that many.
Myers (37 IP - 65 games) and Villone will likely be lefty specialists, which means they will likely only face 1 or 2 hitters a night. We WILL DEFINITELY carry 6 starters on the roster (I say all 7). There is no way we trade away more than one starting pitcher with the fragility of arms.
Plus Mo, Farns and Sturze. That's 11. WIthout a trade or injury, and Dotel is reay its 12 at a minimum.
That's without Proctor, Henn, Depaula, Anderson (Depaula and Anderson are out of options, but could clear waivers).
Not to mention the Yanks may still pick up a quality reliever.
I think 12 is what you SHOULD carry in this day and age.
5 starters
1 closer
1 set up
1 Long reliever/6th starter
2 guys for the 7th
2 lefty specialists (I guess many could get away with one)
Yankees1962
12-28-05, 10:09 AM
Myers (37 IP - 65 games) and Villone will likely be lefty specialists, which means they will likely only face 1 or 2 hitters a night. We WILL DEFINITELY carry 6 starters on the roster (I say all 7). There is no way we trade away more than one starting pitcher with the fragility of arms.
Plus Mo, Farns and Sturze. That's 11. WIthout a trade or injury, and Dotel is reay its 12 at a minimum.
That's without Proctor, Henn, Depaula, Anderson (Depaula and Anderson are out of options, but could clear waivers).
Not to mention the Yanks may still pick up a quality reliever.
I think 12 is what you SHOULD carry in this day and age.
5 starters
1 closer
1 set up
1 Long reliever/6th starter
2 guys for the 7th
2 lefty specialists (I guess many could get away with one)
I agree with most of what you said except about Villone. I think he's the type of lefty that can pitch an inning when he enters a game, unlike, Myers who should be restricted to facing left-handed batters only.
Also, I hope Torre stays away from using his relievers more than one inning a game. I would rather him utilize the whole bullpen and have 4 guys with 70 game apperances each with the same amount of innings pitched. This will keep the bullpen sharp as well as not overworked. Also, try to restrict Rivera to 60-65 games.
ryanthe13th
12-28-05, 10:13 AM
If we're talking to J.T. Snow, then I just want Phillips to be the backup 1B. There is no reason to overpay for this guy.
Myers (37 IP - 65 games) and Villone will likely be lefty specialists, which means they will likely only face 1 or 2 hitters a night. We WILL DEFINITELY carry 6 starters on the roster (I say all 7). There is no way we trade away more than one starting pitcher with the fragility of arms.
Plus Mo, Farns and Sturze. That's 11. WIthout a trade or injury, and Dotel is reay its 12 at a minimum.
That's without Proctor, Henn, Depaula, Anderson (Depaula and Anderson are out of options, but could clear waivers).
Not to mention the Yanks may still pick up a quality reliever.
I think 12 is what you SHOULD carry in this day and age.
5 starters
1 closer
1 set up
1 Long reliever/6th starter
2 guys for the 7th
2 lefty specialists (I guess many could get away with one)
First problem, Villone is not a lefty specialist. He's a back of the bullpen guy who can also get a righthander out and pitch multiple innings at a time. Where there might be an occassion to use him against 1 or 2 batters, there are also occassions to let him pitch 3 innings.
Yankee relievers pitched 465.1 innings last year. That's about 77 innings a pitcher with a 6-man relief corps. Obviously, that doesn't get spread out evenly. For Rivera, it's pretty normal, though I think you can back him off a few innings. For Farnsworth, it's about 7 innings too much. Myers gets 35-40 innings or so, but the long man should get closer to 120, but the Yankees have more than one long man, so you'll have to back them all up a little bit. Basically, your left with about 280 innings to split between Villone, Wright, and Small. That's 93 innings apiece. If you keep Sturtze, it's 70 innings apiece, and I just don't see how starters like Wright and Small are going to get enough work at 70 innings. Hell, even Villone's best seasons come at around 100 IP.
I agree with most of what you said except about Villone. I think he's the type of lefty that can pitch an inning when he enters a game, unlike, Myers who should be restricted to facing left-handed batters only.
Also, I hope Torre stays away from using his relievers more than one inning a game. I would rather him utilize the whole bullpen and have 4 guys with 70 game apperances each with the same amount of innings pitched. This will keep the bullpen sharp as well as not overworked. Also, try to restrict Rivera to 60-65 games.
As noted above, I don't think it's wise at all to have your long relievers limited to 70 IP. You need to keep these guys stretched out so they can start a game if need be, and that means pitching multiple innings if the situation arises. If you cap them that low, it just means they are sitting on the bench for long stretches between appearences, which also doesn't do them any good.
I also think you're asking for trouble if you cut Rivera back too much. Really, I think if you get him back down to about 70 innings, that's fine.
ryanthe13th
12-28-05, 10:29 AM
I don't have ESPN Insider so I can't paste the article, but there is an article titled "Snow In Boston?" which obviously is refering J.T. Snow to Boston.
Strange.
Yankees1962
12-28-05, 10:30 AM
I don't have ESPN Insider so I can't paste the article, but there is an article titled "Snow In Boston?" which obviously is refering J.T. Snow to Boston.
Strange.
They can have him.
Martini6196
12-28-05, 10:38 AM
Snow in Boston?
Dec 27 - According to the Boston Herald, the Red Sox are negotiating with first baseman J.T. Snow, who could serve as a backup and a defensive replacement for Kevin Youkilis, and a decision may come Tuesday or Wednesday.
The Herald reports that Snow is believed to be negotiating with three or four other clubs, and two of them are likely the Yankees and the Orioles.
Here is the blurb on ESPN Insider. Just thought you might want to see it.
I say Andy Philips will be a fine back up. I think the Yanks need to give him more of a chance then they gave him last year. I think he will end up being a pleasant surprise.
ryanthe13th
12-28-05, 10:39 AM
They can have him.
I agree. I've noticed that whoever the Yankees court, the Red Sox jump in and immediately begin negotiating with them.
ShaneTravis
12-28-05, 10:41 AM
Check out the NY Times today.
Raffy wants to come play for the Yanks. There is your DH/1st baseman.
;)
"I'm not sure," he said. "Well, obviously I'd like to play for a good team. I'd have to see what the options are out there. The Yankees would be intriguing. I grew up being a Yankee fan; I've always loved the Yankees. But the Yankees seem to be maxed out."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/28/sports/baseball/28chass.html
ryanthe13th
12-28-05, 10:48 AM
Check out the NY Times today.
Raffy wants to come play for the Yanks. There is your DH/1st baseman.
;)
"I'm not sure," he said. "Well, obviously I'd like to play for a good team. I'd have to see what the options are out there. The Yankees would be intriguing. I grew up being a Yankee fan; I've always loved the Yankees. But the Yankees seem to be maxed out."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/28/sports/baseball/28chass.html
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
ring403
12-28-05, 10:56 AM
Snow in Boston?
Dec 27 - According to the Boston Herald, the Red Sox are negotiating with first baseman J.T. Snow, who could serve as a backup and a defensive replacement for Kevin Youkilis, and a decision may come Tuesday or Wednesday.
The Herald reports that Snow is believed to be negotiating with three or four other clubs, and two of them are likely the Yankees and the Orioles.
Here is the blurb on ESPN Insider. Just thought you might want to see it.
That's the same Herald story I started this thread with 2 days ago. All ESPN Insider does is regurgitate news stories that have been printed elsewhere. You can get the same info for free, and much faster, by looking it up yourself.
That's the same Herald story I started this thread with 2 days ago. All ESPN Insider does is regurgitate news stories that have been printed elsewhere. You can get the same info for free, and much faster, by looking it up yourself.
Links to local baseball coverage available at:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/
Get bugmenot to deal with site registrations.
ShaneTravis
12-28-05, 11:16 AM
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Read the story--it's a piece by Murray Chass. It really is high comedy. He talks about Raffy wanting to play for a couple of years and hit .300 and knock in 30 homers a year.
Then goes on with the head scratching "how did I test positve."
"Hold on, a bus is coming where's Miggy so I can throw him under."
ShaneTravis
12-28-05, 11:18 AM
Snow in Boston?
Dec 27 - According to the Boston Herald, the Red Sox are negotiating with first baseman J.T. Snow, who could serve as a backup and a defensive replacement for Kevin Youkilis, and a decision may come Tuesday or Wednesday.
The Herald reports that Snow is believed to be negotiating with three or four other clubs, and two of them are likely the Yankees and the Orioles.
Here is the blurb on ESPN Insider. Just thought you might want to see it.
I say Andy Philips will be a fine back up. I think the Yanks need to give him more of a chance then they gave him last year. I think he will end up being a pleasant surprise.
www.prosportsdaily.com
Is a good source of finding local papers with news on Baseball.
shutout
12-28-05, 04:51 PM
Am I missing out on something? Why do we need Snow? Giambi is 1B, Philips his back up... why do we need Snow?
Of course we could sign him, but I'd want him to be a starter then with Giambi DH. We've got a great line-up, one below average hitter isn't a huge problem for us, but it's good to have a great defensive infielder imo. If we just want to use him as back up I really don't understand why we would like to sign him. We've got Philips for that; he's good enough.
Mr. Mxylsplk
12-28-05, 05:35 PM
Am I missing out on something? Why do we need Snow? Giambi is 1B, Philips his back up... why do we need Snow?
Of course we could sign him, but I'd want him to be a starter then with Giambi DH.
Well, the yanks would only sign him with the intention of him starting a lot at 1B and DH. I don't that Snow is the answer, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want someone better than Phillips and Bernie as our 9th batter.
yogibuck
12-28-05, 11:15 PM
First problem, Villone is not a lefty specialist. He's a back of the bullpen guy who can also get a righthander out and pitch multiple innings at a time. Where there might be an occassion to use him against 1 or 2 batters, there are also occassions to let him pitch 3 innings.
Yankee relievers pitched 465.1 innings last year. That's about 77 innings a pitcher with a 6-man relief corps. Obviously, that doesn't get spread out evenly. For Rivera, it's pretty normal, though I think you can back him off a few innings. For Farnsworth, it's about 7 innings too much. Myers gets 35-40 innings or so, but the long man should get closer to 120, but the Yankees have more than one long man, so you'll have to back them all up a little bit. Basically, your left with about 280 innings to split between Villone, Wright, and Small. That's 93 innings apiece. If you keep Sturtze, it's 70 innings apiece, and I just don't see how starters like Wright and Small are going to get enough work at 70 innings. Hell, even Villone's best seasons come at around 100 IP.
I like the attempt to break it down by innings, but Wright and Small will probably get alot of innings as starters. No way do all our pitchers stay healthy. You could make the case that one of them, if they stay healthy, could get 150 IP as a starter just filling in as guys come on and off the DL.
I like the attempt to break it down by innings, but Wright and Small will probably get alot of innings as starters. No way do all our pitchers stay healthy. You could make the case that one of them, if they stay healthy, could get 150 IP as a starter just filling in as guys come on and off the DL.
Yes, but when that happens, it just means that someone from AAA replaces them in the bullpen and fills the same basic role. The concept doesn't change.
Quangormo
12-30-05, 10:19 AM
There aren't enough innings for regular work for 12 pitchers, let alone 13. There is no way they ever carry that many.
OK, assuming Dotel starts the year on the DL (new nickname: DL Dotel?), that still leaves Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Shawn Chacon, Carl Pavano, Chien-Ming Wang, Jaret Wright, Aaron Small, Mariano Rivera, Kyle Farnsworth, Ron Villone, Mike Myers, Tanyon Sturtze, and Scott Proctor -- not to mention Ramiro Mendoza, on a minor-league contract. Which of these pitchers do you see the Yankees cutting to get down to 11?
And who gets the extra roster spot? Kevin Thompson? Escalona? Or do we sign J.T. and carry him along with Phillips?
fredgmuggs
12-30-05, 11:01 AM
Tony Massarotti in today's Boston Herald reports that the Yankees are no longer interested in J.T. Snow.
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=119234
"baseball sources have ruled out the New York Yankees, who will use the right-handed hitting Andy Phillips to back up Jason Giambi. There had been some speculation that the Yankees also were eyeing Snow as a late-inning defensive replacement."
OK, assuming Dotel starts the year on the DL (new nickname: DL Dotel?), that still leaves Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Shawn Chacon, Carl Pavano, Chien-Ming Wang, Jaret Wright, Aaron Small, Mariano Rivera, Kyle Farnsworth, Ron Villone, Mike Myers, Tanyon Sturtze, and Scott Proctor -- not to mention Ramiro Mendoza, on a minor-league contract. Which of these pitchers do you see the Yankees cutting to get down to 11?
And who gets the extra roster spot? Kevin Thompson? Escalona? Or do we sign J.T. and carry him along with Phillips?
Proctor has options, so they have 12 guys now before Dotel is healthy. That's why they are trying to trade a pitcher.
As for who takes the extra roster spot, a corner outfielder who can hit right handers, perhaps acquired for said pitcher.
YankClipper5
12-30-05, 12:06 PM
Proctor has options, so they have 12 guys now before Dotel is healthy. That's why they are trying to trade a pitcher.
As for who takes the extra roster spot, a corner outfielder who can hit right handers, perhaps acquired for said pitcher.
You are right on. 12 pitchers, especially with the depth we have and the talent there, is way too much to fight for the available innings. I agree that everyone staying healthy is a long shot but even carrying 11 pitchers, we are insured against injury to 2 starters basically because Villone and Small can spot start and still leave behind a relatively deep pen. After that we can tap into AAA, perhaps DePaula? I mean 12 pitchers is unnecessary and I only see it happening perhaps when Dotel is back but even then, if it is early enough, we may end up dealing another pitcher, depending on the roster spot and health situations.
shutout
12-30-05, 12:11 PM
Tony Massarotti in today's Boston Herald reports that the Yankees are no longer interested in J.T. Snow.
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=119234
"baseball sources have ruled out the New York Yankees, who will use the right-handed hitting Andy Phillips to back up Jason Giambi. There had been some speculation that the Yankees also were eyeing Snow as a late-inning defensive replacement."
Good :)
yogibuck
12-30-05, 04:12 PM
Proctor has options, so they have 12 guys now before Dotel is healthy. That's why they are trying to trade a pitcher.
As for who takes the extra roster spot, a corner outfielder who can hit right handers, perhaps acquired for said pitcher.
Can someone post me a link that says we are "trying to trade a pitcher?"
I think this is absolutely false.
I think we go into the season with 7 starters and 5 bullpen guys, PLUS Dotel and the others (who will be at AAA).
They may not all need to be on the roster as someone may be hurt. But the only way I see us trading Sturze or Pavano (or anyone else for that matter) is if we can upgrade quality over quantity. Otherwise we will keep what we got.
Why would we need more than 5 bench guys anyhow? A backup catcher is a must (done). A Dh (done). A fifth OF who can also run (done). A Utility inf (done), a backup 1B who can give Jason a day off(done).
Why would we need another position player? The only way I see it is if they are an upgrade OVER Bernie or Andy. If they are an UPGRADE maybe we keep both.
Every year our bullpen breaks down from over use. Some will say that it is because it hasn't been deep, but we've had plenty of arms out there.
All I know is that I don't want us trading away any pitcher that can possibly help us. Small may start out at AAA and Wright maybe in the pen, but personally, I'd have all hands on board and TRY to use EVERY one of them.
None of our starters (sans Randy) seem to go more than 6 IP any more.
So that leaves the pen virtually 3 IP EVERY night baring an unusual circumstance where Randy goes deeper. That's enough to keep 6 guys busy every other night, depending on the circumstances. Then you have Myers who is a one out kind of guy.
JeffWeaverFan
12-30-05, 04:23 PM
I'm sorry, but a guy that hit .249/.321/.367 last year is not a DH.
The bench should have 5 guys: 1. A backup catcher. 2. A utility infielder. 3. A backup 1B guy. 4. A speedy, defensive outfielder. 5. A guy that can hit leftys well.
Right now we've got: a backup catcher, a utility infielder, a backup 1B guy, a speedy outfielder in Bubba although you would want to upgrade that. We need a pinch hitter type. We won't have that because Bernie is going to have to be in that role and maybe he can hit rightys well next year as a pinch hitter and Phillips can be the guy that hits leftys well.
Still though, we need a DH and we don't have that. Preferably it's a guy that can play the corner outfield positions so that Sheff and Matsui can DH a lot next year.
Having 12 pitchers, especially with Torre as your manager, is just a waste. What will happen is that a couple of the guys will not be used nearly enough and will be rusty when they do pitch - making them not effective. FRod for example was rarely used and didn't pitch well when he was. Groom should have been used more but wasn't. Torre, not surprisingly, continually used Sturtze and Gordon in blowout games. 6 men in the pen is more than enough.
By the way, I think more of our starters will last deeper into the games now that Damon is in CF rather than Bernie.
Can someone post me a link that says we are "trying to trade a pitcher?"
I think this is absolutely false.
I think we go into the season with 7 starters and 5 bullpen guys, PLUS Dotel and the others (who will be at AAA).
They may not all need to be on the roster as someone may be hurt. But the only way I see us trading Sturze or Pavano (or anyone else for that matter) is if we can upgrade quality over quantity. Otherwise we will keep what we got.
Why would we need more than 5 bench guys anyhow? A backup catcher is a must (done). A Dh (done). A fifth OF who can also run (done). A Utility inf (done), a backup 1B who can give Jason a day off(done).
Why would we need another position player? The only way I see it is if they are an upgrade OVER Bernie or Andy. If they are an UPGRADE maybe we keep both.
Every year our bullpen breaks down from over use. Some will say that it is because it hasn't been deep, but we've had plenty of arms out there.
All I know is that I don't want us trading away any pitcher that can possibly help us. Small may start out at AAA and Wright maybe in the pen, but personally, I'd have all hands on board and TRY to use EVERY one of them.
None of our starters (sans Randy) seem to go more than 6 IP any more.
So that leaves the pen virtually 3 IP EVERY night baring an unusual circumstance where Randy goes deeper. That's enough to keep 6 guys busy every other night, depending on the circumstances. Then you have Myers who is a one out kind of guy.
1. Rumors about Pavano being traded or Sturtze and Henn/Proctor being traded don't exist in a vacuum.
2. I've already had a discussion re how many innings are available for the pen to pitch, and 7 relievers just doesn't work.
3. Small is out of options.
4. The Yankees need another position player because they need someone actually capable of playing RF and LF against righties.
longtimeyankeefan
12-30-05, 06:08 PM
1. Rumors about Pavano being traded or Sturtze and Henn/Proctor being traded don't exist in a vacuum.
2. I've already had a discussion re how many innings are available for the pen to pitch, and 7 relievers just doesn't work.
3. Small is out of options.
4. The Yankees need another position player because they need someone actually capable of playing RF and LF against righties.
Apparently, you and I are the only two on this forum who recognize this fact.
It seems like every other post about the pitching staff includes the ascertation that Small can begin the season in AAA, despite the fact that he has ML service in eight different seasons.
ring403
12-31-05, 01:00 AM
Looks like Snow is headed for Boston:
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/sportsNews/view.bg?articleid=118132
While free agent first baseman J.T. Snow has yet to make a decision regarding his place of employment next year, sources indicated that Snow has chosen Boston as his preferred destination. Two or three other clubs are believed to be in the bidding for Snow, but he and the Red Sox seem positioned to make a deal.
The Sox would like Snow to serve as a complement to Kevin Youkilis at first base. The left-handed-hitting Snow, who is a six-time Gold Glove winner, would match nicely with the right-handed-hitting Youkilis, who has never played first base on a regular basis.
JeffWeaverFan
12-31-05, 09:13 AM
Looks like Snow is headed for Boston:
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/sportsNews/view.bg?articleid=118132
Good. IMO, the more playing time Snow gets for the Sox, the worse that team is as I like what I've seen from Youkilis. I guess it gives them insurance if Lowell plays like he did last season again.
JeffWeaverFan
12-31-05, 09:14 AM
Apparently, you and I are the only two on this forum who recognize this fact.
It seems like every other post about the pitching staff includes the ascertation that Small can begin the season in AAA, despite the fact that he has ML service in eight different seasons.
Yeah, I was one of the people that did not realize this. Now I do and it makes it more important to trade away a pitcher.
longtimeyankeefan
12-31-05, 10:02 AM
Yeah, I was one of the people that did not realize this. Now I do and it makes it more important to trade away a pitcher.
I am becoming more and more convinced that the logic of waiting until spring training before trading our excess 25-man roster pitching makes sense.
Our problem may be even worse than we thought - does anyone know if Jason Anderson has any options left? The BaseballCube and BaseballReference list him as having ML experience in 2003 (NYY & NYM), 2004 (CLE) and 2005 (NYY) - if this fact is correct, isn't he also out of options?
NDBoston
12-31-05, 10:29 AM
Good. IMO, the more playing time Snow gets for the Sox, the worse that team is as I like what I've seen from Youkilis. I guess it gives them insurance if Lowell plays like he did last season again.
JT Snow against RH pitchers last year.
279 .350 .376 .725
Not spectacular but great defense in late innings and a solid player to have in against RH pitchers on occasion. It's a solid signing by the Red Sox in a bench role.
Mystic Merlyn
12-31-05, 10:44 AM
This begs the question: Why is the bench being ignored?
It definitely seems like the Yanks offense is better 1-9, but beyond that they look like they have some issues. If they get any injuries to their starting lineup, it doesn't look to good as far as replacements go.
JeffWeaverFan
12-31-05, 11:05 AM
I am becoming more and more convinced that the logic of waiting until spring training before trading our excess 25-man roster pitching makes sense.
Our problem may be even worse than we thought - does anyone know if Jason Anderson has any options left? The BaseballCube and BaseballReference list him as having ML experience in 2003 (NYY & NYM), 2004 (CLE) and 2005 (NYY) - if this fact is correct, isn't he also out of options?
I agree with that. That way, you see 1. If we have an injury and no longer need to trade a pitcher and 2. If another team has an injury, they will be willing to pay more for one of our extra guys.
Not sure about Jason.
JeffWeaverFan
12-31-05, 11:07 AM
JT Snow against RH pitchers last year.
279 .350 .376 .725
Not spectacular but great defense in late innings and a solid player to have in against RH pitchers on occasion. It's a solid signing by the Red Sox in a bench role.
I think Youkilis will do better than that against rightys. Your right about the defense though.
edit: Also, don't you have Roberto Petagine? I think he's far better than Snow.
Yankees1962
12-31-05, 11:08 AM
JT Snow against RH pitchers last year.
279 .350 .376 .725
Not spectacular but great defense in late innings and a solid player to have in against RH pitchers on occasion. It's a solid signing by the Red Sox in a bench role.
Have you ever publicly criticized any signing by the Red Sox?
JeffWeaverFan
12-31-05, 11:10 AM
This begs the question: Why is the bench being ignored?
It definitely seems like the Yanks offense is better 1-9, but beyond that they look like they have some issues. If they get any injuries to their starting lineup, it doesn't look to good as far as replacements go.
Well, Andy Phillips is here and I think he'll be the backup 1B guy so we don't really have the need for Snow. He can also pinch hit against leftys.
Stinnett is the catcher. Bubba is the speedy outfielder. Bernie is the guy that gets curtain calls and hopefully can hit righty pitching allright off the bench. And Cairo is the utility infielder.
Not great, but not much room for anything else. The Yanks just really need a DH or, preferably, a corner outfielder.
Yankees1962
12-31-05, 11:13 AM
This begs the question: Why is the bench being ignored?
It definitely seems like the Yanks offense is better 1-9, but beyond that they look like they have some issues. If they get any injuries to their starting lineup, it doesn't look to good as far as replacements go.
At least they haven't ignored their everyday lineup like your team? By the way, once you get some replacements in your regular lineup that Sox bench isn't exactly a strength.
There isn't any evidence that Snow still provides great defense. In fact, there's evidence that he provides average defense. What does that leave you?
JT Snow against RH pitchers last year.
279 .350 .376 .725
Not spectacular but great defense in late innings and a solid player to have in against RH pitchers on occasion. It's a solid signing by the Red Sox in a bench role.
Great defense at this point in his career?
You really think that those numbers are good for a first baseman?
I will be very happy if the Red Sox have nothing more at first than Youkils and Snow. And ecstatic about the other corner unless Lowell can make a Giambi-like rise from his ashes.
NDBoston
12-31-05, 11:39 AM
Great defense at this point in his career?
You really think that those numbers are good for a first baseman?
I will be very happy if the Red Sox have nothing more at first than Youkils and Snow. And ecstatic about the other corner unless Lowell can make a Giambi-like rise from his ashes.
I never said the numbers were good but that's not going to be his role. I envision the same way Mienkiewicz was used in 2004 and that was helpful.
Not to mention the fact that Youkilis has played very little 1B and could learn a thing or two from Snow and it also allows Youkilis to give Lowell a day off too.
I never said the numbers were good but that's not going to be his role. I envision the same way Mienkiewicz was used in 2004 and that was helpful.
Not to mention the fact that Youkilis has played very little 1B and could learn a thing or two from Snow and it also allows Youkilis to give Lowell a day off too.
Sure, but Minky actually is a good defender at first. Snow as a defensive replacement with average defense isn't terribly exciting. Petagine is, simply, a better player than Snow, and if Snow is playing instead of better players, that's good for the Yankees. Teaching Youkilis how to play 1B is the job of the coaching staff. You don't need to blow a roster space on that.
NDBoston
12-31-05, 11:53 AM
Sure, but Minky actually is a good defender at first. Snow as a defensive replacement with average defense isn't terribly exciting. Petagine is, simply, a better player than Snow, and if Snow is playing instead of better players, that's good for the Yankees. Teaching Youkilis how to play 1B is the job of the coaching staff. You don't need to blow a roster space on that.
Petagine is better than Snow?
Snow is pretty effective against RHP (his three-year split is .300/.391/.456 [.847 OPS] and is FAR from an average defensive fielder.
Petagine did nothing in his short stay in MLB and 5 years prior. He's also 35 and no spring chicken himself and below average with the glove.
JeffWeaverFan
12-31-05, 11:56 AM
Petagine is better than Snow?
Snow is pretty effective against RHP (his three-year split is .300/.391/.456 [.847 OPS] and is FAR from an average defensive fielder.
Forget Snow's 3 year splits. Snow fell off a cliff last year. I don't think that at the age of 38 he's going to be any better than he was last year.
All I know is I'll be happy when Snow is playing instead of Youkilis.
Petagine is better than Snow?
Snow is pretty effective against RHP (his three-year split is .300/.391/.456 [.847 OPS] and is FAR from an average defensive fielder.
Petagine did nothing in his short stay in MLB and 5 years prior. He's also 35 and no spring chicken himself and below average with the glove.
As I often try to say, projection is not simply looking at the last 3 years and weighting them evenly in a vacuum. Snow was not a good hitter for a 1B last year, be it against LH or RH (and worse than Petagine). He is not going to get better. As for his defense, he was less than a run above average last year according to ZR+, his 2002-2003 UZR162 was -4, his 2000-2003 UZR162 was -5, etc. Reputation from his 20s seems to have carried Snow pretty far in terms of defense.
mickey mantle
12-31-05, 03:58 PM
i think phillips will be the man this year.
yogibuck
01-01-06, 09:58 AM
1. Rumors about Pavano being traded or Sturtze and Henn/Proctor being traded don't exist in a vacuum.
2. I've already had a discussion re how many innings are available for the pen to pitch, and 7 relievers just doesn't work.
3. Small is out of options.
4. The Yankees need another position player because they need someone actually capable of playing RF and LF against righties.
I realize Small is out of options, but nothing is stopping him from volunteering to two or three starts at AAA to stay Sharp.
Jason Anderson is also out of options as is DePaula. Proctor is not so he could be the odd man out.
The rumors I've seen about Pavano have been with a starting pitcher coming back in return. So that doesn't alleviate any logjam of starters. Not to mention the Yankees have PUBLICLY said that they'd like to keep Pavano. That's not to say he ain't available for the right package.
But starting pitchers are too valuable to trade for anything other than starting pitchers. And the only way I see it is if we can sweeten the deal and upgrade.
As for the seven relievers, one will actually be your sixth starter, so he will be in and out of the rotation as needed. Which will likely be often with our staff.
I would not mind seeing a better hitter in place of Bernie at DH, but I don't think we are going to see it. There's nothing on the free agent market but scraps. Frank Thomas, Raffy Palmerio, etc. Maybe we will see a Steinbrenner reclamation project.
I just don't see a major upgrade happening. We may just save the money and possibly upgrade at the All-Star break if we have a problem. If we were going to sign a mediocre type OF'er we would have already signed Byrnes or someone of the like.
All said, I'm ready to go into the season with Bernie as our DH and 4th OF'er. I think he can spell all three of'ers better than anyone that is out there now. I think trading for a J. D. Drew/Abreau type to allow Sheff to go to DH is just wishful thinking.
I realize Small is out of options, but nothing is stopping him from volunteering to two or three starts at AAA to stay Sharp.
Actually, yes, the waiver process is stopping him from doing that. He'd have to clear waivers to make it to AAA. He won't.
Jason Anderson is also out of options as is DePaula. Proctor is not so he could be the odd man out.
Given that Anderson was himself acquired off waivers and DePaula is still not all of the way back, they actually might clear waivers. If not, they will be traded in ST in the kind of deal for other marginal players you see every spring.
The rumors I've seen about Pavano have been with a starting pitcher coming back in return. So that doesn't alleviate any logjam of starters. Not to mention the Yankees have PUBLICLY said that they'd like to keep Pavano. That's not to say he ain't available for the right package.
And the Yankees publically said that Bubba could be the opening day CF. Teams say a lot of things to the press. We've seen Pavano linked to Reed, Abreu, Michaels, etc. Again, not saying these are all good or likely deals, but usually with these things, where there's smoke, there's fire.
But starting pitchers are too valuable to trade for anything other than starting pitchers. And the only way I see it is if we can sweeten the deal and upgrade.
Bull. Players who play every day inherently have more value than pitchers who pitch every 5 days. Yes, there are certainly good pitchers who have more value than average position players, but in a general sense, you get more out of 750 plate appearences and all of those defensive innings. In addition, with Pavano, it is simply a matter of cutting the bait. The chances of him being healthy, as shown by his career, are extremely slim. If you can exchange a guy who is probably going to end up on the DL for a guy who is actually going to play, that's a good thing.
As for the seven relievers, one will actually be your sixth starter, so he will be in and out of the rotation as needed. Which will likely be often with our staff.
I understand that. That's why you can't carry 12 pitchers. You need to keep your swingmen stretched out so that they can effectively start if need be. Limiting them to 70 innings or so of relief work does not allow this.
I would not mind seeing a better hitter in place of Bernie at DH, but I don't think we are going to see it. There's nothing on the free agent market but scraps. Frank Thomas, Raffy Palmerio, etc. Maybe we will see a Steinbrenner reclamation project.
There are more issues here than just Bernie's bat. They must also contend with bad outfield defense from both Sheffield and Matsui, the nagging injuries that seem to plague Sheffield every year, and Matsui wearing down in order to keep his consecutive game streak alive. An average RF/LF who can hit righties gives more offense than Bernie, more defense than Sheffield or Matsui (wherever he happens to be playing DH that day), keeps Sheffield and Matsui more fresh, and lets Phillips play first against lefties to give Giambi a day off from the field.
I just don't see a major upgrade happening. We may just save the money and possibly upgrade at the All-Star break if we have a problem. If we were going to sign a mediocre type OF'er we would have already signed Byrnes or someone of the like.
By the all-star break, Pavano and Wright will likely be hurt again, leaving the Yankees with nothing...nothing to trade but prospects, holes in the pitching staff, and a hole in the lineup. I know I sound harsh here, but the simple fact is, they are never healthy. Expecting it to happen in 2006 is wishful thinking at best.
All said, I'm ready to go into the season with Bernie as our DH and 4th OF'er. I think he can spell all three of'ers better than anyone that is out there now. I think trading for a J. D. Drew/Abreau type to allow Sheff to go to DH is just wishful thinking.
Bernie can't play a single outfield position well. When he is forced to play defense, his offense suffers. What do the Yankees get by putting him in LF or RF (which in and of itself is one of the more frightening things I can think of)? They don't need Abreu...all they need is an average RF/LF...something they should comfortably be able to get (and then some) for a guy like Pavano.
yogibuck
01-02-06, 09:47 AM
Actually, yes, the waiver process is stopping him from doing that. He'd have to clear waivers to make it to AAA. He won't.
Given that Anderson was himself acquired off waivers and DePaula is still not all of the way back, they actually might clear waivers. If not, they will be traded in ST in the kind of deal for other marginal players you see every spring.
And the Yankees publically said that Bubba could be the opening day CF. Teams say a lot of things to the press. We've seen Pavano linked to Reed, Abreu, Michaels, etc. Again, not saying these are all good or likely deals, but usually with these things, where there's smoke, there's fire.
Bull. Players who play every day inherently have more value than pitchers who pitch every 5 days. Yes, there are certainly good pitchers who have more value than average position players, but in a general sense, you get more out of 750 plate appearences and all of those defensive innings. In addition, with Pavano, it is simply a matter of cutting the bait. The chances of him being healthy, as shown by his career, are extremely slim. If you can exchange a guy who is probably going to end up on the DL for a guy who is actually going to play, that's a good thing.
I understand that. That's why you can't carry 12 pitchers. You need to keep your swingmen stretched out so that they can effectively start if need be. Limiting them to 70 innings or so of relief work does not allow this.
There are more issues here than just Bernie's bat. They must also contend with bad outfield defense from both Sheffield and Matsui, the nagging injuries that seem to plague Sheffield every year, and Matsui wearing down in order to keep his consecutive game streak alive. An average RF/LF who can hit righties gives more offense than Bernie, more defense than Sheffield or Matsui (wherever he happens to be playing DH that day), keeps Sheffield and Matsui more fresh, and lets Phillips play first against lefties to give Giambi a day off from the field.
By the all-star break, Pavano and Wright will likely be hurt again, leaving the Yankees with nothing...nothing to trade but prospects, holes in the pitching staff, and a hole in the lineup. I know I sound harsh here, but the simple fact is, they are never healthy. Expecting it to happen in 2006 is wishful thinking at best.
Bernie can't play a single outfield position well. When he is forced to play defense, his offense suffers. What do the Yankees get by putting him in LF or RF (which in and of itself is one of the more frightening things I can think of)? They don't need Abreu...all they need is an average RF/LF...something they should comfortably be able to get (and then some) for a guy like Pavano.
I disagree that Bernie can't play a single outfield position well. I think (provided he could make the adjustment) that Bernie would likely be an average to above average leftfielder as Matsui is. I think Matsui looks below average at times because left center at Yankee stadium is a big field to play and preferably would be filled by someone with wheels. On the road I would think both of them as above average.
In RF his throwing arm would hurt, but he can still cover the ground that most RF'ers can (probably more than Sheff). In CF, he can spot Damon once a month. I agree he is a weak CF'er, but there just aren't alot of great CF'ers.
Not sure why you want to trade Pavano for an average LF/RFer type? That is Bernie. He is an average player.
And to say that Bernie's offense suffers when he plays defense is absurd. When has he DH'd for an extended period of time. Just maybe the same skills that have eroded making him a below avg CF'er are the same ones that hinder his hitting. Or maybe its just the shoulder problem. I would agree that more rest should HELP keep him fresher, but not playing in the field is a hard adjustment for someone who always had.
If Pavano and Wright are hurt by the All-Star break again, we will be in serious trouble, that is why we need to keep all 7 around. Not sure I understand that logic.
And I am just going to disagree about starting pitchers. I think top notch pitchers ARE the hardest commodity to find. People don't tend to give them up much. Many young pitchers are hurt alot. Not sure that is an uncommon thing. Most find their groove injury wise after 27-28.
For many teams, just having 200IP guys is what they want, but with the Yankees, the team should and is built for the postseason. That is why they dealt for Randy, because in the postseason, PITCHING more often than not WINS.
I'm not ready to give up on after one season where Pavano had a bum shoulder. And I'm one who absolutely did not want to sign Pavao last year. I wanted the Yankees to go after Pedro (Diva) as his worst season was still better than Pavano's best and the money wasn't much different.
When you look around at the contracts being thrown around for starters right now, if Pavano can have a good year, the money isn't that bad.
And all the links you mentioned to OF'ers were PRIOR to Johnny Damon signing on. Which in my opinion was the best option. Trading Pavano for a player like Michaels or Reed is absurd. And apparently the Yankees agreed. The Abreau option would be an upgrade over Bernie, so I could see something like that.
Is Michaels any better than Bubba or even Melky? Why Reed? He doesn't have ANY power. Why would the Yankees play him in either corner more than in spot duty? I could see MAYBE going after him for center if we were EXTREMELY desperate with the possibility of starting Bubba. But not now.
As for the smoke/fire thing. I think the press in NY creates crap because they need to sell papers. With Cashman in control and power centralized, I doubt you'll see much leaked until something is DONE.
If Cashman is talking, it is for a reason (strategic I would imagine).
I think we will carry 12 pitchers. I think another roster space is wasted unless it is an upgrade over what we have already. I think players clear waivers all the time unexpectedly also however. So I think it is possible that Small could start out at AAA.
But I think we will see
RJ
Moose
Pavano
Wang
Chacon
Mo
Farns
Tanyon
Villone
Myers
Wright
Small
all on the Yankee roster unless someone is hurt. Which is VERY possible. Do you have to clear waivers for rehab assignments?
I think Proctor will be one of the first guys up (or possibly traded for scrap (not much value) once Dotel looks ready) and that Henn will likely replace Villone or Myers about the all-star break. I think a starter may be moved at the All-Star break for a big chip if everyone is healthy or if one of the minor league pitchers (Clippard/Desalvo/etc.) forces his way up into the bigs.
I personally, let the dearth of pitching work itself out.
Although, anyone is tradeable in my book for the right price. If the right deal comes along, Pavano is gone. But only for a sweet pot.
yogibuck
01-02-06, 09:55 AM
Not to mention, how much of Sheffields decline defensively was due to his hamstring?
Maybe it is a lifelong injury, but one would expect that with rest he might be able to play defense better in 06.
Macklew
01-02-06, 11:17 AM
Didn't know they were not on speaking terms. :D
Not to mention, how much of Sheffields decline defensively was due to his hamstring?
Maybe it is a lifelong injury, but one would expect that with rest he might be able to play defense better in 06.
His defense has been poor for a few years now. Whether that is because of the variety of injuries he has had over those years, age, or some combination of the 2 doesn't seem to matter much in terms of projecting forward. He's had nagging injuries for at least the last 3 years that effected him in the field, and at this point, it's very likely that something crops up again. In addition, I don't think there are any good 37 year old defensive outfielders. Defense is really the provence of younger guys.
I disagree that Bernie can't play a single outfield position well. I think (provided he could make the adjustment) that Bernie would likely be an average to above average leftfielder as Matsui is. I think Matsui looks below average at times because left center at Yankee stadium is a big field to play and preferably would be filled by someone with wheels. On the road I would think both of them as above average.
In RF his throwing arm would hurt, but he can still cover the ground that most RF'ers can (probably more than Sheff). In CF, he can spot Damon once a month. I agree he is a weak CF'er, but there just aren't alot of great CF'ers.
Bernie's true talent is probably around -25 to -30 runs defensively in CF based on UZR, ZR+, Gassko's stuff, etc. Previous studies by tangotiger seem to indicate that the difference between CF and either RF or LF is about 8 runs. That still leaves Bernie as substantially below average. You also have to consider that Bernie has always been far from an instinctual player and might not adjust at even an average rate.
Not sure why you want to trade Pavano for an average LF/RFer type? That is Bernie. He is an average player.
Below average defensively as discussed above, below average with the bat for an OF. The average AL LF hit .278/.333/.437 last year and the average RF .270/.332/.451. Bernie hit .249/.321/.367. ZIPS projects .241/.332/.362.
And to say that Bernie's offense suffers when he plays defense is absurd. When has he DH'd for an extended period of time. Just maybe the same skills that have eroded making him a below avg CF'er are the same ones that hinder his hitting. Or maybe its just the shoulder problem. I would agree that more rest should HELP keep him fresher, but not playing in the field is a hard adjustment for someone who always had.
Torre and Bernie both say that his whole game suffers when he plays the field regularly. The knees and the shoulders both give him trouble. Beyond that, if you think he'll have a hard time adjusting to DH, that's just another reason to find a better solution.
If Pavano and Wright are hurt by the All-Star break again, we will be in serious trouble, that is why we need to keep all 7 around. Not sure I understand that logic.
The logic is, if they are going to be hurt and not playing, why not get something for them before that happens? No one is going to trade for Wright, but once Pavano is hurt, you can't get anything for him either. Would you rather have a player on the DL or a player actually playing? Pavano is unlikely to actually play.
Pavano is not a top notch starting pitcher. Pavano has gone well beyond the normal injury growing pains associated with a growing pitcher, as the injuries have become the norm.
[quote]For many teams, just having 200IP guys is what they want, but with the Yankees, the team should and is built for the postseason. That is why they dealt for Randy, because in the postseason, PITCHING more often than not WINS.
Yet Pavano is a below average pitcher in his career when he pitches. Why is that what you want in the postseason?
I'm not ready to give up on after one season where Pavano had a bum shoulder. And I'm one who absolutely did not want to sign Pavao last year. I wanted the Yankees to go after Pedro (Diva) as his worst season was still better than Pavano's best and the money wasn't much different.
It's not about one season. It's about his entire career. In fact, it seems that it is the belief that 2004 is again likely that is the problem here. 2004 is the one season that doesn't fit with the rest of his career, and there's no reason to expect him to do it again.
When you look around at the contracts being thrown around for starters right now, if Pavano can have a good year, the money isn't that bad.
Yet there's no evidence that Pavano will have a good year even if he is able to pitch. That's what his career, aside for 1 season, is all about. Waiting around for the outlier to repeat itself is an extreme risk, regardless of the money. If they do trade him, it would simply be to reapportion those funds.
And all the links you mentioned to OF'ers were PRIOR to Johnny Damon signing on. Which in my opinion was the best option. Trading Pavano for a player like Michaels or Reed is absurd. And apparently the Yankees agreed. The Abreau option would be an upgrade over Bernie, so I could see something like that.
How about yesterday's Newsday?
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spflash014571834jan01,0,5612056.column?coll=ny-yankees-print
Is Michaels any better than Bubba or even Melky? Why Reed? He doesn't have ANY power. Why would the Yankees play him in either corner more than in spot duty? I could see MAYBE going after him for center if we were EXTREMELY desperate with the possibility of starting Bubba. But not now.
Yes, Michaels is a much, much better baseball player than Bubba or Melky. Bubba is below replacement level in CF, let alone at the corners. Melky still hasn't shown the power to play a corner spot in the majors nor the defensive abillity to play center. Michaels is an above average hitter for a corner outfielder. He hit .304/.399/.415 in limited time last year. If you spread him out against more righties, as he would face were he an everyday player, you get .300/.387/.415. That gives him some leeway to decline a little bit if playing every day wears him out and still be average to above average. He was a slightly better than average defender in CF last year. I think you might be able to get Michaels plus a player for Pavano, and that isn't a bad thing.
As for the smoke/fire thing. I think the press in NY creates crap because they need to sell papers. With Cashman in control and power centralized, I doubt you'll see much leaked until something is DONE.
If Cashman is talking, it is for a reason (strategic I would imagine).
While you can always question why something was said and what it really means, names don't just pop up for no reason.
I think we will carry 12 pitchers. I think another roster space is wasted unless it is an upgrade over what we have already. I think players clear waivers all the time unexpectedly also however. So I think it is possible that Small could start out at AAA.
I've previously offered a detailed explanation of the number of innings available for 11 and 12 pitchers. Why do you think 12 pitchers is ok? G
iven how bad Bernie actually is, do you think it's that hard to upgrade?
Small is exactly the kind of player that doesn't make it through waivers...a guy that a team has no problem taking a flyer on for no money, but someone who they wouldn't trade for or pay too much as a free agent for because of his history.
But I think we will see
RJ
Moose
Pavano
Wang
Chacon
Mo
Farns
Tanyon
Villone
Myers
Wright
Small
all on the Yankee roster unless someone is hurt. Which is VERY possible. Do you have to clear waivers for rehab assignments?
Yes, I would imagine you would see all of those pitchers and more. That's the problem. If Pavano is just going to be hurt anyway and someone is actually willing to trade a functioning baseball player for him, the team is in a better position overall.
And while a rehabbing pitcher can be assigned to the minor leagues, they must be returned to the ML roster within 30 days (20 for position players), so you just can't hide guys in the minors.
I think Proctor will be one of the first guys up (or possibly traded for scrap (not much value) once Dotel looks ready) and that Henn will likely replace Villone or Myers about the all-star break. I think a starter may be moved at the All-Star break for a big chip if everyone is healthy or if one of the minor league pitchers (Clippard/Desalvo/etc.) forces his way up into the bigs.
I personally, let the dearth of pitching work itself out.
How are the Yankees going to trade pitching at the ASB? See, this is the problem. Pavano apparently has trade value right now. When he's on the DL, he has no trade value. What you are then left with is having to trade prospects to address the teams issues. If you are already of a mind to trade Pavano, then you might as well just do it while you actually have a chance and you actually have a market. Instead of waiting for Pavano to get hurt so that things 'work themselves out', proactively address the issue while you can still get something out of it.
Although, anyone is tradeable in my book for the right price. If the right deal comes along, Pavano is gone. But only for a sweet pot.
While I know that win shares has flaws, especially on the defensive side, it does provide a bit of perspective here. Michaels generated 13 win shares last year, Pavano 2. That's a differnce of over 3 wins, and it comes with Michaels spending a decent portion of the season on the bench and not stretching his lead even more. Even then, 3 wins is a rather substantial difference over the course of a season. That seems like a pretty sweet pot to me. Put Wilkerson in the mix and now you're talking about 23 win shares, so about 7 wins difference between him and Pavano last year. All of this is because Pavano is unlikely to play.
38Special
01-02-06, 01:06 PM
He hit .304/.399/.415 in limited time last year. If you spread him out against more righties, as he would face were he an everyday player, you get .300/.387/.415.
how do you figure this?
how do you figure this?
I just took his splits and applied them as though his ratio of AB against lefties and righties were the same as Matsui's since he was someone who played every day. Since he had a higher than normal percentage of AB against lefties in his limited role, it made sense to try and see what would happen if he faced a more even ratio of lefties to righties.
RIP to JT's dad, former NFL Player Jack Snow.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5235842
Not one comment on the passing of Jack Snow. Wow.
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