View Full Version : Bernie, Nomar, Damon, and Cairo
Quangormo
12-15-05, 09:29 AM
The all-knowing media proclaims that if the Yankees were to sign either Nomar Garciaparra or Johnny Damon, there is no place on the roster for Bernie.
That may be a relistic reflection of the Yankees' current financial parameters, but there would certainly be space on the roster for all of them.
Let's assume that the Yankees were to sign Bernie, Damon, Nomar, and Cairo. Assuming no new pitchers other than the ones already signed, the roster would look something like this:
PITCHERS (11) -- Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Carl Pavano, Shawn Chacon, Chien-Ming Wang, Mariano Rivera, Kyle Farnsworth, Tanyon Sturtze, Mike Myers, Aaron Small, Jaret Wright
CATCHERS (2) -- Jorge Posada, Kelly Stinnett
INFIELDERS (7) -- Nomar Garciaparra, Robinson Cano, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Miguel Cairo, Andy Phillips
OUTFIELDERS (5) -- Hideki Matsui, Johnny Damon, Gary Sheffield, Bernie Williams, Bubba Crosby.
That is not a bad roster at all. It's a club that should win more than a few games.
Add in another reliever or two (Dotel, Seanez, Tavarez, maybe Villone) and it would be hard to beat.
If the Yanks signed Cairo, Escalona would certainly not make the team. Probably would be Phillips.
You left out Sturtze. Proctor has options. As noted above, don't need 2 middle infield reserves.
Instead of carrying both Cairo and Escalona, I would replace one of them with a left-handed PH threat off of the bench.
Irabu's Son
12-15-05, 09:56 AM
While I love Cairo, I think Escalona can do the job just as well as Cairo.
Plus if Nomar is signed, how much is either Cairo or Felix going to play in the middle infield?
(Edit: plus, please stay away from Johnny-D. I'd rather Reed, Michaels, Lofton, or just about anyone else.)
RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 09:59 AM
Its a long offseason, i'm sure we can figure something out
Lofton?
We went down that road once... it was an ugly road.
While I love Cairo, I think Escalona can do the job just as well as Cairo.
Plus if Nomar is signed, how much is either Cairo or Felix going to play in the middle infield?
(Edit: plus, please stay away from Johnny-D. I'd rather Reed, Michaels, Lofton, or just about anyone else.)
Irabu's Son
12-15-05, 10:16 AM
Lofton?
We went down that road once... it was an ugly road.
With the game on the line, do you want Crosby at the plate or Lofton?
effdamets
12-15-05, 10:25 AM
With the game on the line, do you want Crosby at the plate or Lofton?
Neither... I'd pinch hit for both of them....
Neither.
Lofton and Torre hated one another because Lofton didn't like being Bernie's bag boy.
Lofton would never become a Yankee again.
With the game on the line, do you want Crosby at the plate or Lofton?
While I love Cairo, I think Escalona can do the job just as well as Cairo.
Plus if Nomar is signed, how much is either Cairo or Felix going to play in the middle infield?
(Edit: plus, please stay away from Johnny-D. I'd rather Reed, Michaels, Lofton, or just about anyone else.)
Escalona is probably a slightly better defensive player, but Cairo is a superior player all around. Offensively it's not even close, as Cairo would be adequate if he needed to play for an extended period and Escalona would be one of hte biggest holes in any major league lineup. He's a horrific hitter.
Saxmania
12-15-05, 10:35 AM
Instead of carrying both Cairo and Escalona, I would replace one of them with a left-handed PH threat off of the bench.
Durazo?
I think that the plan in this post is passable, but I think it's going to take 5 years to get Damon. Given that, it's a big risk, because we're not doing anything to future-proof the team aside from not trading our prospects. Which, I admit, is a step forward from previous years.
I would prefer to see a trade for someone like Payton, but if Damon could be had for 4 years, I would go with that. I suppose it would be a possibility if Boston found a CF from elsewhere.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
PittsburghYankeeFan
12-15-05, 10:38 AM
The all-knowing media proclaims that if the Yankees were to sign either Nomar Garciaparra or Johnny Damon, there is no place on the roster for Bernie.
That may be a relistic reflection of the Yankees' current financial parameters, but there would certainly be space on the roster for all of them.
Let's assume that the Yankees were to sign Bernie, Damon, Nomar, and Cairo. Assuming no new pitchers other than the ones already signed, the roster would look something like this:
PITCHERS (11) -- Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Carl Pavano, Shawn Chacon, Chien-Ming Wang, Mariano Rivera, Kyle Farnsworth, Tanyon Sturtze, Mike Myers, Aaron Small, Jaret Wright
CATCHERS (2) -- Jorge Posada, Kelly Stinnett
INFIELDERS (7) -- Nomar Garciaparra, Robinson Cano, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Miguel Cairo, Andy Phillips
OUTFIELDERS (5) -- Hideki Matsui, Johnny Damon, Gary Sheffield, Bernie Williams, Bubba Crosby.
That is not a bad roster at all. It's a club that should win more than a few games.
Add in another reliever or two (Dotel, Seanez, Tavarez, maybe Villone) and it would be hard to beat.
I think this is going to be our team in January/February. Watch for what they do with Bernie in the next few days--it will be an indicator of where everything else stands.
Remember Beltran last year? Boras took it right down to the wire, and it turned out that Beltran did want to play for the Yankees, and was willing to come down a bit from his supposedly "final" offer. The timing was off by a few hours.
I hope Damon is aware of this (I know Cashman is)--this deal is turning on 4 years with more money (Yankees, maybe Sawx) versus the potential for another team (Detroit, maybe LA) willing to give 5 years for less per year.
Nomar is coming here unless McCourt throws a lot more than $4 million at him (which he may, being the idiot he is).
RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 10:40 AM
If we sign Damon, Bernie and Nomar, how much would or salary be next year? It will still be awfully close to 200 mil
BeantownYankee
12-15-05, 10:53 AM
While I love Cairo, I think Escalona can do the job just as well as Cairo.
Plus if Nomar is signed, how much is either Cairo or Felix going to play in the middle infield?
(Edit: plus, please stay away from Johnny-D. I'd rather Reed, Michaels, Lofton, or just about anyone else.)
Lofton :barf:
ShaneTravis
12-15-05, 10:53 AM
Cairo is on hold till the Nomar decision is made. Doubt the Yanks would carry both.
Rotoworld.com
NYtimes.com
Miguel Cairo - 2B - Mets
The Yankees have held off on signing free agent Miguel Cairo while they chase Nomar Garciaparra.
There would seem to be room enough for both, but perhaps not. Cairo doesn't look like a candidate for any starting jobs at this time. Dec. 15 - 3:16 am et
Source: New York Times
RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 10:54 AM
Cairo is on hold till the Nomar decision is made. Doubt the Yanks would carry both.
Rotoworld.com
NYtimes.com
Miguel Cairo - 2B - Mets
The Yankees have held off on signing free agent Miguel Cairo while they chase Nomar Garciaparra.
There would seem to be room enough for both, but perhaps not. Cairo doesn't look like a candidate for any starting jobs at this time. Dec. 15 - 3:16 am et
Source: New York Times
Hopefully, he doesn't signn with another team
shotgun_sam
12-15-05, 11:06 AM
If we sign Damon, Bernie and Nomar, how much would or salary be next year? It will still be awfully close to 200 mil
Bernie and Nomar will get nowhere over 4 million, and Damon won't cost Kevin Brown money, it wouldn't be that bad.
shotgun_sam
12-15-05, 11:08 AM
Instead of carrying both Cairo and Escalona, I would replace one of them with a left-handed PH threat off of the bench.
In theory, that would be Bernie.
drjeckyl
12-15-05, 11:17 AM
Bernie and Nomar will get nowhere over 4 million, and Damon won't cost Kevin Brown money, it wouldn't be that bad.
Don't forget Matsui will earn more in 06, and Farnsworth will earn more than Gordon did last year.
shotgun_sam
12-15-05, 11:20 AM
Don't forget Matsui will earn more in 06, and Farnsworth will earn more than Gordon did last year.
Ooook, well Bernie's contract from last year is still off our hands.
I'm not saying it won't be at 200 mill, but i'd be suprised if it was.
RhodeyYankee2638
12-15-05, 11:23 AM
Bernie and Nomar will get nowhere over 4 million, and Damon won't cost Kevin Brown money, it wouldn't be that bad.
I think A-Rod, Posada, Jeter and Giambi's salary all goes up this year, though
shotgun_sam
12-15-05, 11:26 AM
I think A-Rod, Posada, Jeter and Giambi's salary all goes up this year, though
Ah well.
Ooook, well Bernie's contract from last year is still off our hands.
I'm not saying it won't be at 200 mill, but i'd be suprised if it was.Not exactly. Any buyout deals, are included in the following years cap number. So the buyout for Bernie (3.5 million??) and Tino (250,000) are included in the 2006 cap number.
I have the Yankees at some 165 million, right now, but I am missing the number of some guys, and I need Roger Clemens deferred salary number also. I believe it is some 900,000, but I am double checking it.
I think A-Rod, Posada, Jeter and Giambi's salary all goes up this year, though
The cap hit on A-Rod is about 1.5 million. On Jeter it is 1 million this year, and about 2 million on Giambi.
Not the actual dollars paid, but the cap charge. These are different figures.
Irabu's Son
12-15-05, 12:22 PM
Farnsworth will earn more than Gordon did last year.
What a rip
jcan411
12-15-05, 12:24 PM
The all-knowing media proclaims that if the Yankees were to sign either Nomar Garciaparra or Johnny Damon, there is no place on the roster for Bernie.
That may be a relistic reflection of the Yankees' current financial parameters, but there would certainly be space on the roster for all of them.
Let's assume that the Yankees were to sign Bernie, Damon, Nomar, and Cairo. Assuming no new pitchers other than the ones already signed, the roster would look something like this:
PITCHERS (11) -- Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Carl Pavano, Shawn Chacon, Chien-Ming Wang, Mariano Rivera, Kyle Farnsworth, Tanyon Sturtze, Mike Myers, Aaron Small, Jaret Wright
CATCHERS (2) -- Jorge Posada, Kelly Stinnett
INFIELDERS (7) -- Nomar Garciaparra, Robinson Cano, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Miguel Cairo, Andy Phillips
OUTFIELDERS (5) -- Hideki Matsui, Johnny Damon, Gary Sheffield, Bernie Williams, Bubba Crosby.
That is not a bad roster at all. It's a club that should win more than a few games.
Add in another reliever or two (Dotel, Seanez, Tavarez, maybe Villone) and it would be hard to beat.
this would be one of the all-time great teams in 2000. Today its the all-time injured team. Get used to a lot of youngsters playing for hurt guys if we went inot the season with these guys...
this would be one of the all-time great teams in 2000. Today its the all-time injured team. Get used to a lot of youngsters playing for hurt guys if we went inot the season with these guys...
Could you imagine if every Yankee player were in his prime???? 125 wins :)
27IsNext
12-15-05, 02:29 PM
But Bernie should never have had a place on the 2006 Yankees. Cashman is being stupid if he's honestly trying to get a deal worked out.
Quangormo
12-15-05, 02:46 PM
Bernie is more useful than anyone else we can get to fill that spot.
NYYRocket
12-15-05, 06:41 PM
Why would we want Bernie back? Sentimental Value?
Matsui55
12-15-05, 07:04 PM
this would be one of the all-time great teams in 2000. Today its the all-time injured team. Get used to a lot of youngsters playing for hurt guys if we went inot the season with these guys...
That's just too ridiculous a statement to pass by- Sheffield played in over 150 games last year (and only missed a few in 2004), Matsui played every one (and has for 3 years), Damon got in about 150 (and been one of the more durable OF).
In the INF, ARod and Jeter played over 150 games apiece- except for Jeter's freak injury several years ago, that's been his average - same for Arod; Cano would have been in around 140-150 had he been called up earlier. Only Giambi missed time- and that was due more to first half ineffectiveness- once he got hit, he was there almost every day. Posada played over 130 games again (though he really shouldn't).
So, now the burden is on you to explain how this is the all-injured team, which you are unable to do.
Only Garciaparra and Giambi would have any record of injuries- and Giambi seems past his. If a rotational DH has injuries- so what- that's why Bernie would be back.
Irabu's Son
12-15-05, 07:31 PM
That's just too ridiculous a statement to pass by- Sheffield played in over 150 games last year (and only missed a few in 2004), Matsui played every one (and has for 3 years), Damon got in about 150 (and been one of the more durable OF).
In the INF, ARod and Jeter played over 150 games apiece- except for Jeter's freak injury several years ago, that's been his average - same for Arod; Cano would have been in around 140-150 had he been called up earlier. Only Giambi missed time- and that was due more to first half ineffectiveness- once he got hit, he was there almost every day. Posada played over 130 games again (though he really shouldn't).
So, now the burden is on you to explain how this is the all-injured team, which you are unable to do.
Only Garciaparra and Giambi would have any record of injuries- and Giambi seems past his. If a rotational DH has injuries- so what- that's why Bernie would be back.
Randy Johnson? Mike Mussina? Carl Pavano? Jaret Wright? Chieng-Ming Wang?
You left out Sturtze. Proctor has options. As noted above, don't need 2 middle infield reserves.
Actually, Proctor has no options, neither do Bubba or Phillips. Proctor will make the team barring a miracle as he has "some" value and if dropped in waivers he would probably be claimed.
Actually, Proctor has no options, neither do Bubba or Phillips. Proctor will make the team barring a miracle as he has "some" value and if dropped in waivers he would probably be claimed.
I thought we tried to figure this out last week and came to the conclusion that Proctor does have options because the Dodgers did not put him on the 40-man in 2003.
flymick24
12-15-05, 09:26 PM
I thought we tried to figure this out last week and came to the conclusion that Proctor does have options because the Dodgers did not put him on the 40-man in 2003.
that is correct.
longtimeyankeefan
12-16-05, 03:17 AM
The cap hit on A-Rod is about 1.5 million. On Jeter it is 1 million this year, and about 2 million on Giambi.
Not the actual dollars paid, but the cap charge. These are different figures.
Not true - from the MLB CBA:
(2) Average Annual Value of Guaranteed Multi-Year Contracts
A Uniform Player’s Contract with a term of more than one (1) championship season (“Multi-Year Contract”) shall be deemed to have a Salary in each Guaranteed Year equal to the “Average Annual Value” of the Contract (plus any bonuses subsequently included by operation of Section E(4) below). “Average Annual Value” shall be calculated as follows: the sum of (a) the Base Salary in each Guaranteed Year plus (b) any portion of a Signing Bonus (or any other payment that this Article deems to be a Signing Bonus) attributed to a Guaranteed Year in accordance with Section E(3) below
plus (c) any deferred compensation or annuity compensation costs attributed to a Guaranteed Year in accordance with Section E(6) below shall be divided by the number of Guaranteed Years.
(4) Performance, Award and Other Bonuses
(a) Any amounts that are actually earned by a Player as Performance Bonuses, Award Bonuses or any other bonuses properly included in a Uniform Player’s Contract shall be included as part of the Player’s Salary in the Contract Year in which the service or performance giving rise to the Bonus was provided. Potential bonuses shall not be included in the Average Annual Value calculation made pursuant to Section E(2) above.
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/spo/mlbpa/mlbpa_cba.pdf page 86/87
The cap value for a player is consistent year-to-year at the average annual value.
ARod got a $1M bonus for his 2nd MVP - as I read 4(a) above, it should apply to the 2005 cap, but this site seems to list it as affecting the 2006 cap.
http://www.hardballdollars.com/team.php?team=yankees&name=Yankees
Not true - from the MLB CBA:
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/spo/mlbpa/mlbpa_cba.pdf page 86/87
The cap value for a player is consistent year-to-year at the average annual value.
ARod got a $1M bonus for his 2nd MVP - as I read 4(a) above, it should apply to the 2005 cap, but this site seems to list it as affecting the 2006 cap.
http://www.hardballdollars.com/team.php?team=yankees&name=Yankees
That site you listed has the salaries at 163 million (and change). This is consistent with what I was able to get from a certain law firm that has extensive contacts with MLB. But the breakout of salaries is different with what I was given, and I know my contacts have solid information.
Irabu's Son
12-16-05, 06:47 AM
my contacts have solid information.
That makes you sound important!!
longtimeyankeefan
12-16-05, 06:31 PM
That site you listed has the salaries at 163 million (and change). This is consistent with what I was able to get from a certain law firm that has extensive contacts with MLB. But the breakout of salaries is different with what I was given, and I know my contacts have solid information.
You've totally missed the point of my post.
I provide a cite to a pdf version of the MLB CBA, which defines how the cap value of a particular contract is calculated - visit the site, the reference is around page 78.
With the exception of any performance bonuses, the cap value of a particular contract is the average annual value of the contract - it does not fluctuate year to year. Therefore, Jeter's and Giambi's cap value this season is no different than last season's.
As for ARod's contract, I read the CBA to mean that his $1M MVP bonus is applied to the 2005 cap. The salary site that I referenced seems to have it against the 2006 cap. I am not sure which is correct.
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