View Full Version : Possibility of Sturtze for Michaels?
38Special
12-09-05, 08:15 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58627.htm
Even if Tanyon Sturtze isn't used to get outfielder Jason Michaels from Philly, Cashman will continue to look for relievers.
Unfortunately this is from a George King article, and is the first time i've seen this mentioned. I've completely forgotten that Sturtze was not a free agent signing this offseason, and could be traded. What trade value he has i'm not sure, but perhaps he could be packaged with a mid-level prospect for Michaels?
ComeBackShane47
12-09-05, 08:17 AM
ESPN radio suggested it would be Henn and Sturtze...if Sturtze has any value to the Phillies why wouldnt the Yankees do this? We can always find another reliever that has an ERA over 5.
Kulish29
12-09-05, 08:19 AM
Sturtze and Henn? I'd do that. Jason Anderson could come in and do Sturtze's job.
wileedog
12-09-05, 08:19 AM
ESPN radio suggested it would be Henn and Sturtze...if Sturtze has any value to the Phillies why wouldnt the Yankees do this? We can always find another reliever that has an ERA over 5.
They may be holding out to try and keep Henn.
Sturtze for Micheals is a no brainer.
I think they (Phillies) would prefer Proctor+Henn than Sturtze+Henn, Sturtze is a one year rental for 1.5mil, Proctor makes minimum wage and will for a few years. Besides, weren't the phillies adamant about getting Wang for Michaels?
noneckwilliams
12-09-05, 08:29 AM
This is a good example of how patience can pay off.
IMO Stutze is not without value and will leave a void in the BP.
38Special
12-09-05, 08:29 AM
The Yankees would not turn down Proctor in a trade. He's got no options left and sucks
Noooo. Not Sturtze! What about SturFarMo?
wileedog
12-09-05, 08:43 AM
IMO Stutze is not without value and will leave a void in the BP.
Agreed, but not as big as the void in CF.
Kulish29
12-09-05, 08:47 AM
This is a good example of how patience can pay off.
IMO Stutze is not without value and will leave a void in the BP.
There are plenty of people who could fill Sturtze's role and do just as well as him. Jason Anderson is one. They could sign Julian Tavarez. Now that Jorge DePaula is about a full year removed from TJ surgery, I'd like to see what he could do in AAA for a half a season and bring him up if he does well.
Is Michaels a legit fulltime CF?? If so, do it. If not, keep your chips and move on.
ESPN radio suggested it would be Henn and Sturtze...if Sturtze has any value to the Phillies why wouldnt the Yankees do this? We can always find another reliever that has an ERA over 5.
Did ESPN Radio just respond to the George King article or are they suggesting this on their own information?
You know, because according to George King the Marlins will be trading Juan Pierre to the Yankees aaaaaannny minute now.
I trade Henn & Sturtze to Philly for Michaels without a second thought.
ComeBackShane47
12-09-05, 08:50 AM
Is Michaels a legit fulltime CF?? If so, do it. If not, keep your chips and move on.
The Yanks dont need a fulltime CF, just someone to be solid this season with decent defense and high OBP, which Michaels has, until next offseason where there are a few CFs on the market. Though if Michaels is as good as he was last year, the Yanks might not need to spend next offseason. Sturtze, Henn, and/or Proctor is a very small price tag to pay for the benefit of having Michaels
vegematarian
12-09-05, 08:51 AM
Is Michaels a legit fulltime CF?? If so, do it. If not, keep your chips and move on.
He's a RF, I believe, and has never had more than 300 at bats in a season. Although, if it involves Sturtze, I'm all for it.
ComeBackShane47
12-09-05, 08:52 AM
Did ESPN Radio just respond to the George King article or are they suggesting this on their own information?
You know, because according to George King the Marlins will be trading Juan Pierre to the Yankees aaaaaannny minute now.
I trade Henn & Sturtze to Philly for Michaels without a second thought.
Mike and Mike were talking about the King article and the winter meetings, and it was suggested that Henn would be likely to go since the Phillies know Wang is too much to ask for.
Kulish29
12-09-05, 08:52 AM
Is Michaels a legit fulltime CF?? If so, do it. If not, keep your chips and move on.
He hasnt been given the chance full time, but when he has played he's produced.
If the Yankees could get Michaels and then get Jeff DaVanon, that would be my ideal situation.
effdamets
12-09-05, 08:52 AM
Is Michaels a legit fulltime CF?? If so, do it. If not, keep your chips and move on.
I don't believe he needs to be a full time centerfielder at this point. His OBP is great for the amount of games he has played (per season) in the past. Torre could give him days off against some of the tougher righties in the league and play Bubba.
This move should only be done if there is a guarantee of another arm in the bull pen, because let's face it, we need to have a great bull pen to win in October (I am in no way saying that Sturtze is great).... Torre needs to get players into that pen that he trusts, this way, down the stretch, he doesn't have to bring Mo in in the middle of the 7th [/sarcasm]....
YankeePride1967
12-09-05, 08:54 AM
This is a good example of how patience can pay off.
IMO Stutze is not without value and will leave a void in the BP.
Exactly, instead of going out, making a rash move in haste and living to regret it for later.
wileedog
12-09-05, 08:56 AM
He's a RF, I believe, and has never had more than 300 at bats in a season.
He played primarily CF last year.
Mike and Mike were talking about the King article and the winter meetings, and it was suggested that Henn would be likely to go since the Phillies know Wang is too much to ask for.
Oh. Bad news. Just another fantasy from the mind of one of America's least responsible Sports Writers.
surge511
12-09-05, 08:59 AM
As much as I like Sturtze, I think you trade him for Michaels - especially since Sturtze has only one year left with the team anyway, and JB Cox will probably be ready to roll by the allstar break.
Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 09:00 AM
I can't say this without wanting to puke.. but just give me Johnny Damon.
vegematarian
12-09-05, 09:09 AM
I can't say this without wanting to puke.. but just give me Johnny Damon.
Just make Michaels Sierra's replacement, not a full time CF.
Wade_Taylor
12-09-05, 09:10 AM
I heard Stark on ESPN Radio this morning, and I was half asleep but I believe I heard him say the Yankees are in serious negotations with the Mariners, Phillies and Rangers for a CF. I am assuming that translates to Reed, Michaels and Matthews with an outside chance at Wilkerson. I honestly believe that Cashman is going to play this thing like he did Chacon, we'll hear reports for weeks about rumored deals and then he will finally get one of these teams to meet his asking price and pull the trigger.
rob in boston
12-09-05, 09:13 AM
Just make Michaels Sierra's replacement, not a full time CF.
Have you guys seen jason michaels play the outfield. Some people just don't have the right instincts to judge ball off bat and he is one of them.
ComeBackShane47
12-09-05, 09:19 AM
Michaels' numbers against lefites are unreal, if they can find a guy who can only hit righties, they could have a nice platoon at DH with Michaels moving to different outfield spots if someone needs a day off.
38Special
12-09-05, 09:19 AM
I heard Stark on ESPN Radio this morning, and I was half asleep but I believe I heard him say the Yankees are in serious negotations with the Mariners, Phillies and Rangers for a CF. I am assuming that translates to Reed, Michaels and Matthews with an outside chance at Wilkerson. I honestly believe that Cashman is going to play this thing like he did Chacon, we'll hear reports for weeks about rumored deals and then he will finally get one of these teams to meet his asking price and pull the trigger.
Makes sense. All 3 teams are in need of starting pitching, and Pavano would be a good investment if some salary is eaten by the Yanks.
NelsonMuntz
12-09-05, 09:21 AM
This is a good example of how patience can pay off.
IMO Stutze is not without value and will leave a void in the BP.
Actually this is the payoff. We didn't give in to Philly's original demands of Wang for Michaels and now (if these rumors are true) they would be willing to accept a middle reliever with an ERA over 5.00 and a minor league pitcher. That's nice work by Cashman.
Is Michaels a legit fulltime CF?? If so, do it. If not, keep your chips and move on.
moneyball man, moneyball!!!
if michaels turns out that he CAN play full time, then you bought on the correct side of the curve.
effdamets
12-09-05, 09:25 AM
Actually this is the payoff. We didn't give in to Philly's original demands of Wang for Michaels and now (if these rumors are true) they would be willing to accept a middle reliever with an ERA over 5.00 and a minor league pitcher. That's nice work by Cashman.
Good observation!
whalers
12-09-05, 09:28 AM
Have you guys seen jason michaels play the outfield. Some people just don't have the right instincts to judge ball off bat and he is one of them.
I know these are highlights but he makes some good plays, plays that bubba and bernie probably dont make. He also played most of his games last year in CF.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player_media.jsp?player_id=346859
Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 09:37 AM
I know these are highlights but he makes some good plays, plays that bubba and bernie probably dont make. He also played most of his games last year in CF.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player_media.jsp?player_id=346859
After seeing that stuff, I feel like even if he's not the answer, he can do the job.
dabomb2045
12-09-05, 09:38 AM
if its true we can get Michaels for Sturtze/Henn....what are the Yanks waiting for?? DO IT. Now.
BRNXBMRS
12-09-05, 09:41 AM
If the yanks did get rid of Pavano in a deal, would they go after Millwood?
MisterNovember
12-09-05, 09:42 AM
I know these are highlights but he makes some good plays, plays that bubba and bernie probably dont make. He also played most of his games last year in CF.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player_media.jsp?player_id=346859
I can't see Bubba or Bernie making ANY of those plays. I like this Michaels kid...
if its true we can get Michaels for Sturtze/Henn....what are the Yanks waiting for?? DO IT. Now.
I really don't get this mindset. If Cashman can get better deals by negotiating for awhile, then let him do it. All that matters is that we have players by April, not by December 16. Instead of Now how about a Good Deal. You just don't know what is going on, give the man a chance.
Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 09:46 AM
How about this:
Pavano, Sturze, Henn for Michaels & Lieber
Espinosa's Glasses
12-09-05, 09:48 AM
How about this:
Pavano, Sturze, Henn for Michaels & Lieber
Pavano for Lieber???
dabomb2045
12-09-05, 09:48 AM
I really don't get this mindset. If Cashman can get better deals by negotiating for awhile, then let him do it. All that matters is that we have players by April, not by December 16. Instead of Now how about a Good Deal. You just don't know what is going on, give the man a chance.
cuz if you wait, maybe the Phils get impatient and break off talks...or maybe some other team offers them something else they like. And then Michaels is gone to some other team
If you wait too long, before you know it all the guys you were looking at are no longer available.
Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 09:48 AM
Pavano for Lieber???
Why not?
Espinosa's Glasses
12-09-05, 09:50 AM
Why not?
Well Lieber did have success here but... We definately should be able to pull more from the Phillies for Pavano... unless they are willing to take the contract
Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 09:52 AM
Well Lieber did have success here but... We definately should be able to pull more from the Phillies for Pavano... unless they are willing to take the contract
Even assuming they have the same production, I trust Lieber more to get through a full season without an injury, as well as not whine to his friends about being unhappy.
cuz if you wait, maybe the Phils get impatient and break off talks...or maybe some other team offers them something else they like. And then Michaels is gone to some other team
If you wait too long, before you know it all the guys you were looking at are no longer available.
You are making all of this up. You have no idea if we are waiting. A combination of nyyfans speculation and George King has given us this trade idea of Henn and Sturtze. For all we know, the Phillies could be asking for Sturtze and Duncan, or for cash.
Basically, we could be waiting, or we could be working towards a better deal (or another player, maybe Wilkerson). You have no idea, I have no idea, but you are assuming the worst is true and then railing on Cashman for it. Unless you think its a good idea to evaluate GMs based on news coverage of rumors and to fire GMs mid-offseason, I think we should wait to evaluate the only thing we can evaluate- results.
It just really sounds like your argument is: "Not enough news stories today about Cashman calling people- what is wrong with him, he's doing nothing, give George all the GM power back!"
Dr. Gonzo
12-09-05, 09:56 AM
Sturtze And Proctor, Keep Henn
wileedog
12-09-05, 09:56 AM
cuz if you wait, maybe the Phils get impatient and break off talks...or maybe some other team offers them something else they like. And then Michaels is gone to some other team
If you wait too long, before you know it all the guys you were looking at are no longer available.
I don't think too many other teams besides us are as desperate for a part time OFer who at age 29 still hasn't played a full season.
We can afford to be patient, IMO. No reason to bid against ourselves.
dabomb2045
12-09-05, 09:58 AM
I don't think too many other teams besides us are as desperate for a part time OFer who at age 29 still hasn't played a full season.
We can afford to be patient, IMO. No reason to bid against ourselves.
Im not sure if the Phils will be willing to go any lower then Sturtze/Henn. Perhaps they will....but anything less then that, and they would basically just be giving the guy away.
Irabu's Son
12-09-05, 09:59 AM
Sturtze And Proctor, Keep Henn
Why would the Phillies piss Michaels away like that? Especially since Kenny Lofton is a free agent and may not return to the team, and the Yankees probably have zero in-house plans for Henn.
ryanthe13th
12-09-05, 10:00 AM
So if Sturtze leaves, who do we go to? Sturtze was fine until Torre took a meat cleaver to his arm(hypothetically). By trading Sturtze we're left with:
7th - Proctor/Unproven minor leaguers
8th - Farnsworth
9th - Rivera
If we can get Michaels without giving up Sturtze, then we should go that route. You can't pitch in the major leagues if you're afraid to throw the ball over the plate(Henn).
Yankees1962
12-09-05, 10:01 AM
There are plenty of people who could fill Sturtze's role and do just as well as him. Jason Anderson is one. They could sign Julian Tavarez. Now that Jorge DePaula is about a full year removed from TJ surgery, I'd like to see what he could do in AAA for a half a season and bring him up if he does well.
The Yankees are going to sign another pitcher, but they're not going to sign one for 3 years at 4M per season which is what Tavarez/Boras wants.
whalers
12-09-05, 10:02 AM
So if Sturtze leaves, who do we go to? Sturtze was fine until Torre took a meat cleaver to his arm(hypothetically). By trading Sturtze we're left with:
7th - Proctor/Unproven minor leaguers
8th - Farnsworth
9th - Rivera
If we can get Michaels without giving up Sturtze, then we should go that route. You can't pitch in the major leagues if you're afraid to throw the ball over the plate(Henn).
What is up with the love affair with Sturtze? He's not that good.
dabomb2045
12-09-05, 10:03 AM
The Yankees are going to sign another pitcher, but they're not going to sign one for 3 years at 4M per season which is what Tavarez/Boras wants.
I'd like Dotel...even if he isnt ready by Opening Day. We've seen numerous pitchers come back from TJ surgery just fine, and I think Dotel would flourish back in the setup role
what about Seanez?
The Yankees would not turn down Proctor in a trade. He's got no options left and sucks
Where did we hear that he has no options? He didn't make his debut until 2004. Did the Dodgers put him on their 40-man roster in 2003 even though he started the year in AA and never made it to the majors?
Martini6196
12-09-05, 10:05 AM
I'm sorry but Sturtze is terrible. Did anyone see the second half of last year. Everytime he came in he gave up a homerun. I'd trade him in a heartbeat for Michaels.
ryanthe13th
12-09-05, 10:22 AM
What is up with the love affair with Sturtze? He's not that good.
Who do we have to replace him? Sturtze isn't a Cy Young candidate, but if he is used correctly he's proven that he can pitch well. Marching him out there for 69 games, sometimes unneccesarily is ridiculous. What is up with the love affair for Scott Proctor and Sean Henn?
38Special
12-09-05, 10:24 AM
Where did we hear that he has no options? He didn't make his debut until 2004. Did the Dodgers put him on their 40-man roster in 2003 even though he started the year in AA and never made it to the majors?
Wow you're right. I had swore i saw his name on the Dodgers transaction list before the 2003 season as having his contract purchased but I was wrong. Crosby is the one with no options left
Wow you're right. I had swore i saw his name on the Dodgers transaction list before the 2003 season as having his contract purchased but I was wrong. Crosby is the one with no options left
I could be wrong. The Dodgers could have put him on the 40 man at the start of 2003. I just wasn't sure why they would, so it begged the question.
Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 10:29 AM
I'd give up Sturtze, Proctor, and Henn for Michaels if needs be. I'm still holding out hope that we can spin off Pavano for another OFer as well.
Kulish29
12-09-05, 10:30 AM
The Yankees are going to sign another pitcher, but they're not going to sign one for 3 years at 4M per season which is what Tavarez/Boras wants.
I agree. If they traded Sturtze, I'd rather them sign someone cheaper or just give the job to Jason Anderson.
Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 10:31 AM
Have you guys seen jason michaels play the outfield. Some people just don't have the right instincts to judge ball off bat and he is one of them.
The numbers and scouts disagree.
38Special
12-09-05, 10:33 AM
I could be wrong. The Dodgers could have put him on the 40 man at the start of 2003. I just wasn't sure why they would, so it begged the question.
Nope, he was added to our 40 man after the 03 season. Crosby on the other hand was added to their 40 man prior to the Ventura trade, and therefore has no options left.
38Special
12-09-05, 10:33 AM
Hopefully Kevin Thompson or Kevin Reese can get a shot at the 4th outfielder role despite what happens with Bernie
Nope, he was added to our 40 man after the 03 season. Crosby on the other hand was added to their 40 man prior to the Ventura trade, and therefore has no options left.
That's a good thing, as the Yankees have 10 guys with major league deals now plus Wang, no? Carrying 12 pitchers again would be silly
Why are so many people so eager to trade Pavano AND eat his contract.
There's a good chance he will be much better next year.
Sturtze and Proctor for Michaels is a no brainer.
Sturtze can be easily replaced.
DandyAndy46
12-09-05, 10:40 AM
Hopefully Kevin Thompson or Kevin Reese can get a shot at the 4th outfielder role despite what happens with Bernie
If the Yanks re-sign Bernie (which they probably will) how would either of these guys get some playing time without someone going on the DL?
Hopefully Kevin Thompson or Kevin Reese can get a shot at the 4th outfielder role despite what happens with Bernie
Yup.
Hopefully Cashman will do the right thing by Bernie by signing him as a reward for all those great years he gave us, and then turn around and do the right thing by the team and place Bernie on the 60 day DL so Joe can't use him. :D
I'd give up Sturtze, Proctor, and Henn for Michaels if needs be. I'm still holding out hope that we can spin off Pavano for another OFer as well.
I know people on this board will disagree but I would try to send Pavano to Philly for Abreu and sign Corey Patterson after Dec.20 when he is free. Sheff would be the best DH in the league and our OF defense would be vastly improved. JMO.
Why are so many people so eager to trade Pavano AND eat his contract.
Because he's been injured every single year of his major league career but one. Heck even in 2003 when he pitched, he was recovering and rehabbing most of the season. If the Yankees can get players who will actually be able to be on the field for him, it is certainly worth investigatiing trading him.
YankeePride1967
12-09-05, 10:52 AM
I really don't get this mindset. If Cashman can get better deals by negotiating for awhile, then let him do it. All that matters is that we have players by April, not by December 16. Instead of Now how about a Good Deal. You just don't know what is going on, give the man a chance.
Exactly. Waiting got us Myers without giving up the draft pick. Waiting got Philadelphia to drop Wang from the rumored deal. There was quite a bit complaining in here in recent days that Cashman was doing nothing, that has been proven false beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Yup.
Hopefully Cashman will do the right thing by Bernie by signing him as a reward for all those great years he gave us, and then turn around and do the right thing by the team and place Bernie on the 60 day DL so Joe can't use him. :D
Sad but true. I love Bernie but want no part of him in the OF at any time next year.
I know people on this board will disagree but I would try to send Pavano to Philly for Abreu and sign Corey Patterson after Dec.20 when he is free. Sheff would be the best DH in the league and our OF defense would be vastly improved. JMO.
I'm sure that if the Yankees could get Abreu for just Pavano, they would.
Wang's Groundballs
12-09-05, 10:57 AM
I know people on this board will disagree but I would try to send Pavano to Philly for Abreu and sign Corey Patterson after Dec.20 when he is free. Sheff would be the best DH in the league and our OF defense would be vastly improved. JMO.
I would do that deal in a second. Philly wouldn't, however, considering that they want Prior for Abreu.
Patterson is a great defender but if he's anywhere near as bad with the bat as he was in 2005 (33 runs below average!) he's not even a replacement level player.
SODM, I don't want to eat all of Pavano's contract and with the market right now I don't see why we would have to. I want to trade Pavano because he's an average at best pitcher when healthy, which isn't often, who had a fluke year and is now overpaid and still overrated. Trading him for another OFer would allow us to get Sheff out of RF where he's a liability and move him to DH where he should age better. Now that Clemens is available and won't cost prospects or draft picks and will only need to be signed for 1 year, I think it's a no-brainer (assuming we can get him of course).
So if Sturtze leaves, who do we go to? Sturtze was fine until Torre took a meat cleaver to his arm(hypothetically). By trading Sturtze we're left with:
7th - Proctor/Unproven minor leaguers
8th - Farnsworth
9th - Rivera
If we can get Michaels without giving up Sturtze, then we should go that route. You can't pitch in the major leagues if you're afraid to throw the ball over the plate(Henn).
Henn is a lot better then he showed in the majors last year. I have seen him in the minors, both in SI and Trenton. He is the goods. I believe that if he dropped his arm angle a bit, he would throw 95 consistently. As it is, he sits at around 93, and has a breaking pitch that changes planes, down and away.
His control in the minors has always been OK to very good. A lefty who throws hard, with control, and now 3 years removed from surgery. And not yet 25!
I don't dump him too fast, especially for a Michaels, who I like a lot, from the little I have seen of him.
Why are so many people so eager to trade Pavano AND eat his contract.
There's a good chance he will be much better next year.
Sturtze and Proctor for Michaels is a no brainer.
Sturtze can be easily replaced.
Sturtze and Proctor for Michaels or Mathews (Rangers) is a no brainer. Trading Pavano or Henn in either of these deals is foolish, unless more talent comes back.
nyctalopia
12-09-05, 11:10 AM
If its between Michaels and offering Damon 4 years, I'll take Damon ... and yes, this hurts me to say.
Panamaniac42
12-09-05, 11:13 AM
I don't think too many other teams besides us are as desperate for a part time OFer who at age 29 still hasn't played a full season.
We can afford to be patient, IMO. No reason to bid against ourselves.
Exactly, Michaels is a scrub just like Crosby, except he's right-handed.
I'm sure many people see him and Crosby as "kids" though.
"The kid deserves a shot", "Let the kid play".
ugh.
Exactly. Waiting got us Myers without giving up the draft pick. Waiting got Philadelphia to drop Wang from the rumored deal. There was quite a bit complaining in here in recent days that Cashman was doing nothing, that has been proven false beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I truly believe that Cashman is tired of this "Yankee Premium" that everyone wants to exact from us in any trade or signing. He is now going to show that the Yankees are as patient as anyone until the price is right, and fair, for both parties involved.
Good for him. I saw keep waiting. Cashman hinted at this when he was quoted in the local NY papers that he did not expect to get everything done at the winter meetings this week. SO I think the name of the game is ....let's wait, and get back to me when you are more reasonable. :clap: :2thumbs:
Kulish29
12-09-05, 11:13 AM
Sad but true. I love Bernie but want no part of him in the OF at any time next year.
If he plays even 1 game in CF next year, that's too much.
YankeePride1967
12-09-05, 11:15 AM
I truly believe that Cashman is tired of this "Yankee Premium" that everyone wants to exact from us in any trade or signing. He is now going to show that the Yankees are as patient as anyone until the price is right, and fair, for both parties involved.
Good for him. I saw keep waiting. Cashman hinted at this when he was quoted in the local NY papers that he did not expect to get everything done at the winter meetings this week. SO I think the name of the game is ....let's wait, and get back to me when you are more reasonable. :clap: :2thumbs:
I agree, I think if things were as they were last year, Michaels would be a Yankee and Wang would have been in Philadelphia weeks ago.
Snatch Catch
12-09-05, 11:18 AM
Exactly, Michaels is a scrub just like Crosby, except he's right-handed.
I'm sure many people see him and Crosby as "kids" though.
"The kid deserves a shot", "Let the kid play".
ugh.
Its this kind of tripe that perpetuates ignorant posting on this forum.
You couldn't be more incorrect.
Yankees1962
12-09-05, 11:18 AM
cuz if you wait, maybe the Phils get impatient and break off talks...or maybe some other team offers them something else they like. And then Michaels is gone to some other team
If you wait too long, before you know it all the guys you were looking at are no longer available.
Maybe, you ought to let a professional negotiator like Cashman worry about talks breaking off.
jbauer2485
12-09-05, 11:21 AM
Exactly, Michaels is a scrub just like Crosby, except he's right-handed.
I'm sure many people see him and Crosby as "kids" though.
"The kid deserves a shot", "Let the kid play".
ugh.
Look at Michaels stats, I wouldn't call him a scrub.
He also doesn't look like a kid at all.
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/6696.jpg
If the deal turns out similar to what is reported, we should go for him. If not, get Damon.
Can we deal for Beltran and have the Mets pay half his salary ;) ;) ? Go for it Cash!! Seriously though, I think I would want Reed before Michaels (depending on the cost of course).
Captain Yankee
12-09-05, 11:25 AM
The Yankees are looking into Octavio Dotel, Rudy Seanz, Julian Tavarez, and Roberto Hernandez. This could mean the Yankees are looking at shipping out Sturtze.
ComeBackShane47
12-09-05, 11:37 AM
The Yankees are looking into Octavio Dotel, Rudy Seanz, Julian Tavarez, and Roberto Hernandez. This could mean the Yankees are looking at shipping out Sturtze.
Yes, or they dont have faith in Aaron Small and Scott Proctor
ShaneTravis
12-09-05, 11:37 AM
Why are so many people so eager to trade Pavano AND eat his contract.
There's a good chance he will be much better next year.
Sturtze and Proctor for Michaels is a no brainer.
Sturtze can be easily replaced.
Octavio Dotel, Braden Looper, Julian Tavarez, Jason M. Johnson, Shigetoshi Hasegawa, Roberto Hernandez... A case for any or all could be made as a replacement for Sturtze.
We would be lucky to have such choices for center.
fredgmuggs
12-09-05, 11:46 AM
Aren't the Phillies rumored to be trying to move Abreu? If that's the case, I would think they would hold onto Michaels until they come to a decision on Abreu.
IronCaballo4
12-09-05, 11:50 AM
I think they should try to deal Henn and Proctor...because I would much rather have Sturtze come into a game than Proctor :eek:
noneckwilliams
12-09-05, 12:17 PM
Agreed, but not as big as the void in CF.
I agree Sturtze can be replaced and obviously finding a CFer has proven to be difficult. My point was that people basically seem to be of the opinion that Stutze was garbage but I think he's been pretty valuable the last 2 seasons.
Still you make the deal.
wileedog
12-09-05, 12:17 PM
I think they should try to deal Henn and Proctor...because I would much rather have Sturtze come into a game than Proctor :eek:
I'd rather find somebody better than both of them and have Michaels in CF.
ComeBackShane47
12-09-05, 12:28 PM
I agree Sturtze can be replaced and obviously finding a CFer has proven to be difficult. My point was that people basically seem to be of the opinion that Stutze was garbage but I think he's been pretty valuable the last 2 seasons.
Still you make the deal.
His value has been quite deceptive, though he has an ERA well over 5 since joining the Yanks, he has been stellar against the Sox, with an era under 1 last year, and pretty good at home where he has a 4.00 era. However like you said, there are plenty of 37 year old guys the Yankees could sign that would be just as good if not better. But there arent many CFs with high OBP that the yankees could get
Yankeeah
12-09-05, 12:36 PM
His value has been quite deceptive, though he has an ERA well over 5 since joining the Yanks, he has been stellar against the Sox, with an era under 1 last year, and pretty good at home where he has a 4.00 era. However like you said, there are plenty of 37 year old guys the Yankees could sign that would be just as good if not better. But there arent many CFs with high OBP that the yankees could get
I am a Sturtze fan, but if he gets traded, it wouldn't effect me too much, though I would rather hang onto him. Sturtze to me is "warrior" type player. During the A-Rod Tek thing Sturtze didn't hesitate to get involved, despite being the starting pitcher. Call him stupid if you want for it, but it took balls.
When Sheff as attacked at Fenway, Sturtze was one of the first, if not the first, to be on the scene.
I'm not tryign to take a SierraMist stand here, again, I'd rather keep him, but wouldn't mind if we traded him, especially for a CFer.
AMYanks
12-09-05, 12:39 PM
I'm not sure how legit this is. If Cashman can deal Sturtze and Henn for Michaels, it would've been done ASAP. I hope he's waiting to see if he can get a slightly better deal, though.
Btw, Paniamaniac42, please don't compare Michaels to Crosby. Michaels is actually pretty good. Crosby is a minor leaguer.
YankeePride1967
12-09-05, 12:41 PM
I'm not sure how legit this is. If Cashman can deal Sturtze and Henn for Michaels, it would've been done ASAP. I hope he's waiting to see if he can get a slightly better deal, though.
Btw, Paniamaniac42, please don't compare Michaels to Crosby. Michaels is actually pretty good. Crosby is a minor leaguer.
and not necessarily a better offer for Michaels, also possibly a better offer than Michaels elsewhere.
As a fan, I really appreciate it when a player acts like he's been a Yankee all his life even if he hasn't. Sturtze was never afraid to mix it up, and he never seems afraid on the mound. If we do trade away Sturtze, who I consider to be a true warrior-type, gritty player, I'll miss him.
Wade_Taylor
12-09-05, 01:17 PM
I think that Cash is waiting for the Phils to drop Henn from any deal. I also think that the liklihood of a Sturtzefor Michaels or Sturtze and Proctor for Michaels trade will be dependent on if the Phillies can sign Looper or one of the other available relievers. If those guys go somewhere else or their asking price gets out of control then I can see them going for Sturtze as a guy behind Gordon who would come at a cheap price relative to the market. If he does go I will miss Sturtze mainly because he was effective and he was willing to do whatever the manager asked (i.e. starting vs. Baltimore this year or going maybe one inning too long in 2004 Game 2 vs. Minnesota). That having been said one of these days he will, if he hasn't already, he will go back to being Tanyon Sturtze and if he can net us an CF who could likely have an OPS near .800 (which is something we haven't had since 2002) then you have to do it. Plus Tavarez, or whomever, may end up being better so you actually get better at 2 positions.
NYDCYankee
12-09-05, 01:20 PM
Sturtze + Gordon hmmm are they trying to build the 2005 Yankee bullpen sans Mo.
SODM, I don't want to eat all of Pavano's contract and with the market right now I don't see why we would have to. I want to trade Pavano because he's an average at best pitcher when healthy, which isn't often, who had a fluke year and is now overpaid and still overrated. Trading him for another OFer would allow us to get Sheff out of RF where he's a liability and move him to DH where he should age better.
I think the move to make is to trade Wright and $3 million to Baltimore for one of their outfielders (Matos/Byrnes/Majewski/Fiorentino).
Any of these 4 could start at CF and be better than Bubba, they're all cheap, and Wright to Baltimore makes perfect sense because they need starting pitching and a reunion with Mazzone would have boatloads of upside for Wright.
nyctalopia
12-09-05, 01:46 PM
I think the move to make is to trade Wright and $3 million to Baltimore for one of their outfielders (Matos/Byrnes/Majewski/Fiorentino).
Any of these 4 could start at CF and be better than Bubba, they're all cheap, and Wright to Baltimore makes perfect sense because they need starting pitching and a reunion with Mazzone would have boatloads of upside for Wright.
and then we get to face him. maybe wright to red sox for manny who can be our new dh. muahahahaha. :D
destiNY
12-09-05, 01:57 PM
If the yanks did get rid of Pavano in a deal, would they go after Millwood?
That would be the ideal situation. I am mistified by the fact that the blue jays signed burnett over millwood...
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-09-05, 02:00 PM
I am against trading Henn who is a 24 year old with good stuff. He has no trade value because of 2 games in which he wasnt ready for but he has the potetional to be a good starter and a solid number 2 or 3 starter or great bullpen guy IMO.
Proctor also has good stuff and could be good if he used it better, but at the age of 30 it is unlikely he learns how to pitch and use his talent(which is a shame) so id trade him. Sturtze sucked, sucks and will continue to suck. He has been below mediocre for his entire career with te exception of a few hot months in 2004. You can blame Torre for a lot of things but making Sturtze suck is not one of them.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-09-05, 02:02 PM
That would be the ideal situation. I am mistified by the fact that the blue jays signed burnett over millwood...
I doubt the Yankees would sign any big name starter even if they traded Pavano(who imo is even worse than Wright). The rotation would be:
RJ
Moose
Chacon
Wang
Wright
I wouldnt be thrilled but I wouldnt puke either
NYDCYankee
12-09-05, 02:04 PM
Millwood wants big money. I am more intrigued by Washburn. No pick to give up and it doesn't seem like many teams are interested in him.
BRNXBMRS
12-09-05, 02:05 PM
That would be the ideal situation. I am mistified by the fact that the blue jays signed burnett over millwood...
Millwood can pitch in the AL, had a 2.86 ERA last year. His agent is Boras and is looking for a 5 year deal for a 32 yr old pitcher. :-shrug-: I would def do Sturtze for Michaels.
That would be the ideal situation. I am mistified by the fact that the blue jays signed burnett over millwood...
Millwood's a couple of years older. Millwood's year was a bit flukey looking.
nyctalopia
12-09-05, 02:06 PM
I am against trading Henn who is a 24 year old with good stuff. He has no trade value because of 2 games in which he wasnt ready for but he has the potetional to be a good starter and a solid number 2 or 3 starter or great bullpen guy IMO.
Proctor also has good stuff and could be good if he used it better, but at the age of 30 it is unlikely he learns how to pitch and use his talent(which is a shame) so id trade him. Sturtze sucked, sucks and will continue to suck. He has been below mediocre for his entire career with te exception of a few hot months in 2004. You can blame Torre for a lot of things but making Sturtze suck is not one of them.
a solid number 2 or 3 starter? please ... that's a huge exaggeration of his talent. a 5th starter maybe, an effective LOOGY most probably. but i do agree with your assessment on sturtze. if someone is willing to take him in exchange for a center fielder, do it immediately.
nyctalopia
12-09-05, 02:07 PM
Millwood wants big money. I am more intrigued by Washburn. No pick to give up and it doesn't seem like many teams are interested in him.
we have 7 starters to fill 5 rotation spots right now. we don't need anymore, even if we trade pavano.
effdamets
12-09-05, 02:09 PM
we have 7 starters to fill 5 rotation spots right now. we don't need anymore, even if we trade pavano.
I bet you were wishing we had 7 starters to fill the 5 rotation spots last year at this time...
You can never have enough pitching.
we have 7 starters to fill 5 rotation spots right now. we don't need anymore, even if we trade pavano.
They have 11 pitchers. If they get rid of one, they need another one. How you shake that out into the pen or the rotation doesn't really matter that much, as it doesn't kill you to have Wright and Small in the pen.
BRNXBMRS
12-09-05, 02:13 PM
I bet you were wishing we had 7 starters to fill the 5 rotation spots last year at this time...
You can never have enough pitching.
Exactly, Moose & Johnson are in the twighlight of their careers.
nyctalopia
12-09-05, 02:13 PM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/251438_mari09.html
Had Seattle acquired Pierre, an official of one club, who had knowledge of the Mariners' plans, said they would have offered center fielder Jeremy Reed and left-handed reliever Matt Thornton to the Oakland Athletics for left-hander Barry Zito. Billy Beane, the Oakland GM, is fond of Reed. But that would have been a stretch without additional prospects -- a scarce commodity for the Mariners.
Not going to happen but pavano for this package wouldn't be too bad either.
nyctalopia
12-09-05, 02:16 PM
Exactly, Moose & Johnson are in the twighlight of their careers.
Johnson
Mussina
Pavano
Chacon
Wang
Wright
Rivera
Farnsworth
Meyers
Sturtze
Proctor
Small
Mendoza and Leiter offered arbitration
We'll see Smith, Cox, Henn, Anderson at spring training.
And we'll probably get one of the following: Tavarez, Rincon, Dotel
Point?: we really don't need to spend money on signing Kevin Millwood.
nyctalopia
12-09-05, 02:20 PM
They have 11 pitchers. If they get rid of one, they need another one. How you shake that out into the pen or the rotation doesn't really matter that much, as it doesn't kill you to have Wright and Small in the pen.
How on earth do you figure they only have 11 pitchers? 1,2,3,4,5,5,5,6,7 ...
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-09-05, 02:22 PM
a solid number 2 or 3 starter? please ... that's a huge exaggeration of his talent. a 5th starter maybe, an effective LOOGY most probably. but i do agree with your assessment on sturtze. if someone is willing to take him in exchange for a center fielder, do it immediately.
A lefty with a 94 mph fastball, and good curve. He was a former top prospect, his ceiling imo is number 2 or 3 guy, hes more likely to end up as 3 or 4 guy
How on earth do you figure they only have 11 pitchers? 1,2,3,4,5,5,5,6,7 ...
10 pitchers with major league deals and Wang.
1. Johnson
2. Mussina
3. Pavano
4. Wang
5. Chacon
6. Wright
7. Small
8. Rivera
9. Farnsworth
10. Myers
11. Sturtze
That's 11. Proctor, Smith, Cox, Henn, Bean, Anderson, etc. all have options.
BRNXBMRS
12-09-05, 02:26 PM
Johnson
Mussina
Pavano
Chacon
Wang
Wright
Rivera
Farnsworth
Meyers
Sturtze
Proctor
Small
Mendoza offered arbitration
We'll see Smith, Cox, Henn, Anderson at spring training.
And we'll probably get one of the following: Tavarez, Rincon, Dotel
Point?: we really don't need to spend money on signing Kevin Millwood.
I understand all that, Torre has been preaching since he got here, that you can never have to much pitching. My whole point of this was that IF the Yanks did trade Pavano would they go out and sign Millwood?
bostonyankeefan
12-09-05, 02:46 PM
The over the shoulder highlight linked to above was a very nice play, and a few of the others were not too shabby either. This guys appears to be worth pursuing. His OBP was almost .400 last year, and it is .380 for his short ml career.
Spiker101
12-09-05, 02:53 PM
sign Corey Patterson after Dec.20 when he is free.
I'd sign Patterson too. At worst he's a better fielding version of Bubba, albeit a more expensive one. He's 26 and despite the hitting struggles there's some hope that under a new regime he may finally get it. If he doesn't what do you lose? Couple of million bucks. Worth a gamble that you might catch lightning in a bottle, ala Ortiz, though in a different context.
terminator
12-09-05, 03:00 PM
I understand all that, Torre has been preaching since he got here, that you can never have to much pitching. My whole point of this was that IF the Yanks did trade Pavano would they go out and sign Millwood?
Doubtful - Millwood is asking for a 5 year contract, and I think he just turned down 44 million over 4 years from Seattle. Doubtful CCC - Cash Conscious Cashman - would give him such a contract.
RIYankeeFan
12-09-05, 03:06 PM
Here is what I think.
The Yankees won't be trading any starters for a 1 year CF replacement. CF is a top priority, but not for a contract eating rental. We're more likely to see Sturtze and or prospect(s) shipped out for the best deal available. Whether it be Reed, Mathews Jr, Michaels, who ever...
We're probably going to pick up another arm for the pen, and possibly sign yet another to a ML contract as insurance. Talent will get evaluated, if there is a call up and is proven, look for the weakest BP arm to be traded near the deadline.
With the CF FAs next year, I don't see Cashman going into a panic. Right now we've got to trust him. He knows Bernie, and Bubba aren't the answer. But he's got his Poker face on, and there is nothing we can say or do to change that.
With the CF FAs next year, I don't see Cashman going into a panic.
What CF FAs next year? Hunter? Edmonds? Cameron? Finley? Pierre? They might as well sign Damon.
Quangormo
12-09-05, 03:26 PM
Sturtze for Michaels isn't a bad deal, but then we'd need to sign at least two or three more relievers.
SINCE77 2
12-09-05, 03:28 PM
What CF FAs next year? Hunter? Edmonds? Cameron? Finley? Pierre? They might as well sign Damon.
Or they might have more to barter next offseason.
vin777b
12-09-05, 03:47 PM
or someone in our system might be ready. Not likely, but possible.
Michaels is a better option than what they have now, but I think Sturtze/Henn is too steep.
Michaels doesn't seem to be an above average fielder- he seems to be acceptable. And while a productive offensive player, he's nothing great. Essentially, a nice player. I'd prefer to keep an arm in the pen and a potential future arm in the rotation. Sturtze seems to me to be a pretty decent middle guy.
I think you continue to kick the tires on the better options for CF, and come back to Michaels at a later time.
ComeBackShane47
12-09-05, 04:05 PM
What CF FAs next year? Hunter? Edmonds? Cameron? Finley? Pierre? They might as well sign Damon.
Andruw Jones
Or they might have more to barter next offseason.
Which is fine, but he was talking about free agent centerfielders.
AMYanks
12-09-05, 04:11 PM
Michaels doesn't seem to be an above average fielder- he seems to be acceptable.
Statistics and scouts say that he is a good fielder.
Andruw Jones
Jones is not a free agent until after the 2007 season. He signed a 6 year contract leading into the 2002 season and is scheduled to make $13M next year and $13.5M in 2007.
Spiker101
12-09-05, 04:22 PM
Andruw Jones
Andruw is signed through 07.
Statistics and scouts say that he is a good fielder.
What statistics? Not asking to be argumentative, simply asking which stats? He's not very fleet of foot, so I imagine his ability to track fly balls is limited unless he gets unusually good jumps. And Yankee Stadium is not Citizen's Bank. Much larger.
He is a righty hitter who gets about half of his atbats against lefty pitchers- not quite a full time platoon guy, but primarily one. His numbers against righties are decent, and pretty good against lefties.
But he has no power and no speed. Assuming his park is a much better place for him to hit than Yankee Stadium, and that as an everyday CF he would get considerably more at bats against righty pitchers.....he's an ok player for the Yanks.
He'd likely be a guy who got on base at about a .370 or so clip, with little or no power. He wouldn't hurt on the offensive side, but he also wouldn't necessarily help. Now......if they signed a guy like Damon? I'd LOVE to have Michaels as a 4th OF, or someone who could spell one of the other three starters while they DH'd.
I'd give up Sturtze, Proctor, and Henn for Michaels if needs be. I'm still holding out hope that we can spin off Pavano for another OFer as well.
Meaning that the Yankees would trade Pavano for a full time CF and Michaels would be the 4th OF?
AMYanks
12-09-05, 04:30 PM
What statistics? Not asking to be argumentative, simply asking which stats? He's not very fleet of foot, so I imagine his ability to track fly balls is limited unless he gets unusually good jumps. And Yankee Stadium is not Citizen's Bank. Much larger.
He is a righty hitter who gets about half of his atbats against lefty pitchers- not quite a full time platoon guy, but primarily one. His numbers against righties are decent, and pretty good against lefties.
But he has no power and no speed. Assuming his park is a much better place for him to hit than Yankee Stadium, and that as an everyday CF he would get considerably more at bats against righty pitchers.....he's an ok player for the Yanks.
He'd likely be a guy who got on base at about a .370 or so clip, with little or no power. He wouldn't hurt on the offensive side, but he also wouldn't necessarily help. Now......if they signed a guy like Damon? I'd LOVE to have Michaels as a 4th OF, or someone who could spell one of the other three starters while they DH'd.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/michaja01.shtml
He played a good CF last year.
NewEraYanks2527
12-09-05, 05:07 PM
Millwood wants big money. I am more intrigued by Washburn. No pick to give up and it doesn't seem like many teams are interested in him.
I too am more interested in Washburn, he is lefthanded and is probably a better option than Wright for the rotation.
Michaels07
12-09-05, 05:13 PM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58627.htm
Unfortunately this is from a George King article, and is the first time i've seen this mentioned. I've completely forgotten that Sturtze was not a free agent signing this offseason, and could be traded. What trade value he has i'm not sure, but perhaps he could be packaged with a mid-level prospect for Michaels?
Last nite ESPN radio Jayson Stark alluded to this potential deal.Joel Sherman of the NY Post likes Michaels.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-09-05, 05:17 PM
Id be happy with Michaels but if we somehow also got Bradley that would turn the outfield from good to great. It would also take care of our DH problem(Matsui in left, Bradley in center, Michaels in right, Sheff DHs, every so often michaels plays left sheff plays right and Matsui is the DH) I could only see that happening if Bradley is non tendered and it seems like the dodgers will trade him.
hellonewman
12-09-05, 05:18 PM
So if Sturtze leaves, who do we go to? Sturtze was fine until Torre took a meat cleaver to his arm(hypothetically). By trading Sturtze we're left with:
7th - Proctor/Unproven minor leaguers
8th - Farnsworth
9th - RiveraSign a righty-killer like Looper or Seanez, pair him with Myers, and approach the 7th as a "matchup" inning. Whenever J. Brent Cox gets here, that's another option. Or a Tavarez could be signed (not my preference, but it's a possibility). We're hardly up a creek without Tanyon Sturtze.
Who do we have to replace him? Sturtze isn't a Cy Young candidate, but if he is used correctly he's proven that he can pitch well.No, he hasn't, really. He's proven he can have hot streaks of 6-9 weeks, as he also showed in 2000, 2001 and 2002 in the midst of pitching horribly at other times. A lot of people here seem to think the Sturtze we saw in June 2005 was a "new" Sturtze. Not true. It was the same old one — pitch well for a while, then suck HARD.
Exactly. Waiting got us Myers without giving up the draft pick. Waiting got Philadelphia to drop Wang from the rumored deal.Waiting also helped us on the Chacon trade, if I remember right. Didn't the Rockies want Henn and Proctor at first? By waiting them out, Cashman has preserved those two as (admittedly limited) trade chips.
Exactly, Michaels is a scrub just like Crosby, except he's right-handed.That's not even close to being true.
AMYanks
12-09-05, 05:20 PM
Last nite ESPN radio Jayson Stark alluded to this potential deal.Joel Sherman of the NY Post likes Michaels.
I saw Sherman on the YES Hot Stove show last night, and I could tell that he was a big fan of Michaels.
TheGameEpisode2
12-09-05, 05:46 PM
Id be happy with Michaels but if we somehow also got Bradley that would turn the outfield from good to great. It would also take care of our DH problem(Matsui in left, Bradley in center, Michaels in right, Sheff DHs, every so often michaels plays left sheff plays right and Matsui is the DH) I could only see that happening if Bradley is non tendered and it seems like the dodgers will trade him.
I'd love that too, and then really cut Crosby (and keep Bernie as the 4th OFer).
When is the deadline that Bradley has to be tendered a contract?
38Special
12-09-05, 05:50 PM
bradley wont be non-tendered, but the deadline is december 20th
TheGameEpisode2
12-09-05, 05:56 PM
bradley wont be non-tendered, but the deadline is december 20th
I know the Dodgers would rather trade him than non-tender him, but do you think they'll keep him along with Kent if they don't find a right match?
38Special
12-09-05, 06:02 PM
I know the Dodgers would rather trade him than non-tender him, but do you think they'll keep him along with Kent if they don't find a right match?
No, they'll still trade him. But if they cant find a deal by December 20th, they arent just going to let him go. They can take their time.
yank4life2005
12-09-05, 07:22 PM
Does anyone have a detailed defensive scouting report about Michaels besides whats out on ESPN?
Thanks!
Quangormo
12-09-05, 10:15 PM
When is the deadline that Bradley has to be tendered a contract?
December 20.
surge511
12-09-05, 10:36 PM
I think Michaels is the best OF option I have seen so far. I would trade any combination of Henn, Proctor and Sturtze to get him. He could be pretty valuable. Personally, I would rather have Nomar DH and play some first than get Bradley for CF and have Sheff DH, but either works, I guess. Getting Nomar makes our lineup more fierce than it already is.
How about we go for Sturtze/Wright for Rowand or Sturtze/Pavano for Rowand/top prospect instead. Not like it's going to happen, but I can dream.
George Steinbrenner
12-09-05, 11:13 PM
Sturtze is crap do the deal
sugmasterflex
12-10-05, 04:50 AM
No way am I giving up Henn for Michaels. I would counter with Sturtze and DeSalvo.
MooseCaLLinTheBronx
12-10-05, 05:11 AM
I heard Duncan might be going for Michaels. It was posted on the message boards of nyynews.com
I heard Duncan might be going for Michaels. It was posted on the message boards of nyynews.com
If it is Shelley, that's ok, no problem.
If it is Eric, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
No way am I giving up Henn for Michaels. I would counter with Sturtze and DeSalvo.
I rate DeSalvo higher than Henn, but I don't want to give up Henn too. I would counter with Sturtze, Proctor and De Paula or Karstens.
Matsui55
12-10-05, 07:11 AM
I heard Duncan might be going for Michaels. It was posted on the message boards of nyynews.com
I can only see this if Pavano, Sturtze, Abreu and some other relievers are part of the deal.
I heard Duncan might be going for Michaels. It was posted on the message boards of nyynews.com
Well then it must be true! ;)
BTW, that guy turned out to be a fraud. Like it wasn't obvious to begin with.
I'm not interested in hearing offensive splits, OBP etc. Can he or can't he play center field better than Crosby, and if he can, how much better?
longtimeyankeefan
12-10-05, 07:48 AM
I'm not interested in hearing offensive splits, OBP etc. Can he or can't he play center field better than Crosby, and if he can, how much better?
If you are talking defensive capabilities, I would say that Michaels and Crosby are probably a draw, with maybe a slight edge to Crosby. That is based on having lived in Philly the last decade and getting to watch Phillies games over that time.
That having been said, I don't understand your concern about improving the CF defense over Crosby - I don't think there are a whole lot of people here who are concerned about Crosby's defense, it is his offense that they are worried about.
..I don't understand your concern about improving the CF defense over Crosby - I don't think there are a whole lot of people here who are concerned about Crosby's defense, it is his offense that they are worried about.We have all the offense we need. CF defense in 2005 killed this team. I would much rather have a .240 hitter with great defense than a .300 hitter with average defense for 2006.
longtimeyankeefan
12-10-05, 09:03 AM
We have all the offense we need. CF defense in 2005 killed this team. I would much rather have a .240 hitter with great defense than a .300 hitter with average defense for 2006.
In that case, Michaels is not for you, I would think.
But, again, I ask - are you concerned that Crosby is a poor defender in CF? CF defense (which did not kill us in 2005 - pitching, and in particular middle relief killed us) was poor last season, in large part, because Crosby was not given a regular chance until late in the season.
dabomb2045
12-10-05, 09:04 AM
We have all the offense we need. CF defense in 2005 killed this team. I would much rather have a .240 hitter with great defense than a .300 hitter with average defense for 2006.
I question whether Crosby could even hit .240 playing everyday....and I dont think he would even have an OBP over .300
thats too much of a black hole
We have all the offense we need. CF defense in 2005 killed this team. I would much rather have a .240 hitter with great defense than a .300 hitter with average defense for 2006.
What killed the team was poor centerfield defense combined with poor centerfield offense. If the centerfielders had cost the Yankees (for the sake of argument) 30 runs on defense but gained them 30 runs on offense, no one would be complaining too much. The result would have been average overall production from the spot, and given the rest of the lineup, I can live with average. The problem is that the Yankees centerfielders didn't make it up with the bat. They cost runs with the bat.
Given the Yankee payroll, I see no reason why they should have anyone in their lineup who, combining offense and defense, isn't net average for the position. That's it. Not All-Star or $20M a year, just average. How that player gets to average is really not my concern, be it good offense and below average defense, vice versa, or average everything.
Bubba is, net, below average.
NelsonMuntz
12-10-05, 09:46 AM
What killed the team was poor centerfield defense combined with poor centerfield offense. If the centerfielders had cost the Yankees (for the sake of argument) 30 runs on defense but gained them 30 runs on offense, no one would be complaining too much. The result would have been average overall production from the spot, and given the rest of the lineup, I can live with average. The problem is that the Yankees centerfielders didn't make it up with the bat. They cost runs with the bat.
Given the Yankee payroll, I see no reason why they should have anyone in their lineup who, combining offense and defense, isn't net average for the position. That's it. Not All-Star or $20M a year, just average. How that player gets to average is really not my concern, be it good offense and below average defense, vice versa, or average everything.
Bubba is, net, below average.
Agree completely.
38Special
12-10-05, 10:10 AM
The funniest part is that people think Crosby is a great defender. He looked like a great defender when you compare him to Bernie, but he certainly isnt a great defender on his own. He's merely average, and from what i can see, Michaels and Wilkerson are better defenders (with MUCH BETTER bats)
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-10-05, 10:18 AM
The funniest part is that people think Crosby is a great defender. He looked like a great defender when you compare him to Bernie, but he certainly isnt a great defender on his own. He's merely average, and from what i can see, Michaels and Wilkerson are better defenders (with MUCH BETTER bats)
I have said that before on this forum(I think in the thread in ISTL) All the bubba defenders laughed at me. I think Michaels would be slightly better than Bubba on defense but Michaels would have an obp 100 points higher and would be good in the 2 spot. If this deal goes down we only have 2 potetional black holes in the line up rather than 3.
Who said Bubba's better than Michaels?
38Special
12-10-05, 10:20 AM
Whos the 2nd black hole?
JeffWeaverFan
12-10-05, 10:21 AM
The funniest part is that people think Crosby is a great defender. He looked like a great defender when you compare him to Bernie, but he certainly isnt a great defender on his own. He's merely average, and from what i can see, Michaels and Wilkerson are better defenders (with MUCH BETTER bats)
Exactly. I think he's actually slightly below average - which is a huge boost from Bernie, but it's not good and not worth the whole in the lineup he will be.
dabomb2045
12-10-05, 10:22 AM
Exactly. I think he's actually slightly below average - which is a huge boost from Bernie, but it's not good and not worth the whole in the lineup he will be.
and thats exactly why he cannot be our everyday CF
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-10-05, 10:24 AM
Whos the 2nd black hole?
Posada is declining, if we can get what we got last year from him than he wont be a black hole. Even if he is we can live with it if everything else goes right.
We still have a DH/1b situation to worry about. Im worried Bernie will be DHing more than he should. Regardless we still need a DH or somebody to play first/right to let Giambi or Sheff DH. Personally i would like Durazo to be signed.
38Special
12-10-05, 10:26 AM
Posada is declining, if we can get what we got last year from him than he wont be a black hole. Even if he is we can live with it if everything else goes right.
We still have a DH/1b situation to worry about. Im worried Bernie will be DHing more than he should. Regardless we still need a DH or somebody to play first/right to let Giambi or Sheff DH. Personally i would like Durazo to be signed.
Posada is still one of the top catchers in the game. He's not a black hole, and i dont see another year turning him into Jason Kendall
JeffWeaverFan
12-10-05, 10:28 AM
and thats exactly why he cannot be our everyday CF
We agree. Cashman has got to make a move.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-10-05, 10:30 AM
Posada is still one of the top catchers in the game. He's not a black hole, and i dont see another year turning him into Jason Kendall
Right now he isnt which is why I said potetional black hole. I was one of the guys defending him last year and I would be thrilled if he could give us that again in 2006. However Catchers decline pretty quickly.
dabomb2045
12-10-05, 10:30 AM
Posada is declining, if we can get what we got last year from him than he wont be a black hole. Even if he is we can live with it if everything else goes right.
We still have a DH/1b situation to worry about. Im worried Bernie will be DHing more than he should. Regardless we still need a DH or somebody to play first/right to let Giambi or Sheff DH. Personally i would like Durazo to be signed.
I'm gonna hope that Posada bounces back...or at least does what he did last season. Although I do worry about him possibly declining more.
I also echo your sentiments about Bernie maybe playing alot more then he should.
Yankees1962
12-10-05, 12:35 PM
We agree. Cashman has got to make a move.
You mean you agree because I don't think the Yankees have to make such a move if they don't like the deal. The Yankees need to remain patient and make the necessary trade when the time and players are right.
TheGameEpisode2
12-10-05, 12:39 PM
Any news on this deal anyway? It seems like yesterday it came up but never got brought up again.
If Cash doesn't get a new (or really reliable) CFer and then signs Bernie and goes ahead with Bubba starting, then we're basically screwed. Torre shows too much loyalty to Bernie that once Bubba starts struggling, Bernie will be our starting Centerfielder again.
And that is not good.
dabomb2045
12-10-05, 01:35 PM
You mean you agree because I don't think the Yankees have to make such a move if they don't like the deal. The Yankees need to remain patient and make the necessary trade when the time and players are right.
they need to find a deal they like somewhere....CF is an important position, and we arent gonna win a championship with the same (or less) kind of production we got from the position last season
Yankees1962
12-10-05, 05:04 PM
they need to find a deal they like somewhere....CF is an important position, and we arent gonna win a championship with the same (or less) kind of production we got from the position last season
There is a lot of time between now and the trading deadline.
YankeePride1967
12-10-05, 05:14 PM
There is a lot of time between now and the trading deadline.
Exactly. The attitude of we "must" get a CF here at all costs is why teams overpay.
Yankeeah
12-10-05, 05:19 PM
I think Cash is waiting for the whole non-tendered deadline. How does that work exactly?
There is a lot of time between now and the trading deadline.
There's a lot of time between now and opening day. I would feel uncomfortable pushing it past that.
Yankees1962
12-10-05, 05:24 PM
There's a lot of time between now and opening day. I would feel uncomfortable pushing it past that.
Last year wasn't a day in the park, but my main concern is the health of our pitching staff because it will determine the outcome of this upcoming season.
I think Cash is waiting for the whole non-tendered deadline. How does that work exactly?
Teams have until December 20 to tender an offer to any 3, 4, or 5 year arbitration eligible player. If they choose not to, that player becomes a free agent.
For example, the Twins did not want to pay David Ortiz what he was sceduled to make in arbitration. They did not tender him a contract, he became a free agent, and he ended up signing with the Red Sox (for substatnially less than what the Twins would have had to pay him).
Last year wasn't a day in the park, but my main concern is the health of our pitching staff because it will determine the outcome of this upcoming season.
Losing runs versus average on the pitching staff is no different than losing runs versus average anywhere else. In fact, the Yankees are in much better shape to deal with the pitching staff than they are with CF. Their best option in CF right now is probably worse than the worst option in the rotation.
I think Cash is waiting for the whole non-tendered deadline. How does that work exactly?
If teams don't offer restricted players (3+ year arbitration eligible, basically) that are not under contract a new contract by December 20th, they become free agents.
This is what happened to Wade Miller last year with the Astros and allowed him to sign with the Red Sox.
Yankees1962
12-10-05, 05:30 PM
Losing runs versus average on the pitching staff is no different than losing runs versus average anywhere else. In fact, the Yankees are in much better shape to deal with the pitching staff than they are with CF. Their best option in CF right now is probably worse than the worst option in the rotation.
I'm not going to debate that point with you because I'm just stating my main concern and if that's yours then I'm cool with it.
Michaels07
12-10-05, 05:31 PM
The funniest part is that people think Crosby is a great defender. He looked like a great defender when you compare him to Bernie, but he certainly isnt a great defender on his own. He's merely average, and from what i can see, Michaels and Wilkerson are better defenders (with MUCH BETTER bats)
We need defense in our outfield, BTW what happened to our clutch offense in the playoffs the last two yrs? Michaels can play all three outfield positions. i say cut the bull and do the deal.
We need defense in our outfield, BTW what happened to our clutch offense in the playoffs the last two yrs? Michaels can play all three outfield positions. i say cut the bull and do the deal.
You always seem to side with the players named Michaels. It's quite a trend.
YankeePride1967
12-10-05, 05:37 PM
If teams don't offer restricted players (3+ year arbitration eligible, basically) that are not under contract a new contract by December 20th, they become free agents.
This is what happened to Wade Miller last year with the Astros and allowed him to sign with the Red Sox.
Another example of a non-tender is David Ortiz.
Yankeeah
12-10-05, 05:45 PM
Gotcha, thanks all.
I'm not going to debate that point with you because I'm just stating my main concern and if that's yours then I'm cool with it.
But I don't get your concern. If I think I have a pitcher who is 10 runs worse than average and I think I have an OF who is 10 runs worse than average, what's the difference?
surge511
12-10-05, 05:51 PM
But I don't get your concern. If I think I have a pitcher who is 10 runs worse than average and I think I have an OF who is 10 runs worse than average, what's the difference?
Because the pitcher will be involved in more plays than the OFer, and will therefore be more responsible for the runs given up. Defense is very important, but not as important as hitting or pitching.
Yankees1962
12-10-05, 05:55 PM
But I don't get your concern. If I think I have a pitcher who is 10 runs worse than average and I think I have an OF who is 10 runs worse than average, what's the difference?
You don't have to get it.:)
You don't have to get it.:)
Yes, actually, I do. Try and explain it to me how having a bad player in your lineup until the trading deadline is worse than the potential (not the reality, just the potential) that a starting pitcher gets hurt and Small or Wright or DeSalvo or Henn has to pitch. Even ignoring positional values, one is already happening, and one just MIGHT happen, yet you're more afraid of what might happen. You are more afraid that a below average pitcher might pitch than a below replacement level every day player will play?
Because the pitcher will be involved in more plays than the OFer, and will therefore be more responsible for the runs given up. Defense is very important, but not as important as hitting or pitching.
10 over the course of a season are 10 runs. Are you trying to say that 10>10?
terminator
12-10-05, 06:38 PM
10 over the course of a season are 10 runs. Are you trying to say that 10>10?
I'll do my best to explain what the OP might have been alluding to. The pitcher concedes 10 runs worse than average over say - 30 games. Whereas a CF would concede that over 162 games. So the CF's negative impact is more spread-out - and easier to compensate for, than a pitcher's impact, which occurs over fewer games.
I'll do my best to explain what the OP might have been alluding to. The pitcher concedes 10 runs worse than average over say - 30 games. Whereas a CF would concede that over 162 games. So the CF's negative impact is more spread-out - and easier to compensate for, than a pitcher's impact, which occurs over fewer games.
Just because the 750 plate appearences and 1,300 defensive innings are more subtle, it doesn't make them any less real. This is the essential problem with the concept that pitching somehow has more importance than hitting or defense. What matters is scoring runs and preventing runs, and whichever player does the best net job at that is the best player, be they pitcher or position player. Over the course of a season, 5*2=10 just as much as 10*1. In addition, isn't any easier to compensate for the position player, especially by merely replacing him at the trading deadline. 1/3 of the season left is 1/3 of the season left. The pitcher or position player gets as many chances to impact things inthat 1/3 of a season then they do in the other 2/3.
As for the difference between position players and pitchers, for the most part, it's the position players who have the greater impact over the course of a season. Remember, pitching isn't half of the game...it's part and parcel with defense. Yes, good pitchers have more value than average position players, but Babe Ruth has more value playing every day than he has pitching once every 5 days.
Please don't take any of this to mean that you don't need good pitching to win. That's not my point at all.
sugmasterflex
12-10-05, 09:15 PM
I rate DeSalvo higher than Henn, but I don't want to give up Henn too. I would counter with Sturtze, Proctor and De Paula or Karstens.
Henn is younger, played in a higher level, is a lefty, and has better velocity. I would have no problem giving up DeSalvo and Sturtze for Michaels. If we trade Henn, it could very well come back to bite us. I doubt the Phils want DePaula or Karstens.
JeterRodriguezSheff
12-10-05, 11:01 PM
Henn is younger, played in a higher level, is a lefty, and has better velocity. I would have no problem giving up DeSalvo and Sturtze for Michaels. If we trade Henn, it could very well come back to bite us. I doubt the Phils want DePaula or Karstens.
I 100% agree. People are too quick to judge Henn on 2 games.
longtimeyankeefan
12-11-05, 06:09 AM
I 100% agree. People are too quick to judge Henn on 2 games.
Wait a minute - didn't you get the memo? Any prospect who doesn't make the hall of fame in their first two or fewer games with the Yankees needs to immediately be traded because he stinks.
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