View Full Version : Offseason "The Sky is Falling" Thread
Mattpat11
12-18-05, 01:34 AM
Unless that move is for a player more preferable that if signed would make (in this case Nomar) no longer needed.God I hope so. This "We have a plan, we're just not explaining it or demonstrating it" is eerily similar to a John Kerry campaign.
Hopefully something happens in two days.
Darth_Takeo
12-18-05, 02:01 AM
As far as Nomar, ring403 pointed out that he may have backed off Nomar because there are other more pressing deals being worked on.
I hope Cash didn't take it seriously when I talked about signing Rickey Henderson...
http://209.18.100.144/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif
ryanthe13th
12-18-05, 02:05 AM
Well, I guess I can get my hopes up for something good to happen during the non-tender, but I probably shouldn't.
The Yankees have acquired Farnsworth, Villone, Veras, and Stinett. Lovely.
EDIT: I forgot Myers.
Yankees1962
12-18-05, 06:01 AM
Well, I guess I can get my hopes up for something good to happen during the non-tender, but I probably shouldn't.
The Yankees have acquired Farnsworth, Villone, Veras, and Stinett. Lovely.
EDIT: I forgot Myers.
Keep it up Cash, you're doing great. All of these fickle Yankee naysayers will soon be calling you a genius like they did with Theo.
ryanthe13th
12-18-05, 06:14 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents
That's the updated list of FA's. Nomar signed with the Dodgers according to a leak(check the Nomar thread for the link). 1 year, $6 Million. It's pretty hard to believe that the Yankees couldnt've thrown 1 or 2 Million more his way to persuade him to come over. I'm real disappointed that Nomar isn't a Yankee, and feel he would've been an extremely valuable player to this team and given us WAY more flexibility than we will have with anyone else we sign.
ryanthe13th
12-18-05, 06:15 AM
Keep it up Cash, you're doing great. All of these fickle Yankee naysayers will soon be calling you a genius like they did with Theo.
If Brian Cashman said jumping off a bridge was a good idea, would you do it?
Yankees1962
12-18-05, 06:18 AM
If Brian Cashman said jumping off a bridge was a good idea, would you do it?
You sound like someone ready to jump so don't talk to me about jumping bridges. ;)
ryanthe13th
12-18-05, 06:25 AM
You sound like someone ready to jump so don't talk to me about jumping bridges. ;)
I'm not ready to jump, I am just fed up with seeing talented players sign with other teams when we're supposedly talking to them. There is a reason for this, and everytime it happens people chalk it up to some grand scheme that Cashman apparently has brewing. It's retarded, because if any other GM besides Cashman does this, he would be called a moron, but just because Cashman is Cashman, people are just nodding their heads.
Yankees1962
12-18-05, 06:35 AM
I'm not ready to jump, I am just fed up with seeing talented players sign with other teams when we're supposedly talking to them. There is a reason for this, and everytime it happens people chalk it up to some grand scheme that Cashman apparently has brewing. It's retarded, because if any other GM besides Cashman does this, he would be called a moron, but just because Cashman is Cashman, people are just nodding their heads.
Hey, it might be alright with you for the Yankees to have a 205-210M payroll again and buy the players you so desperately want on the Yankees. However, I'm willing to wait on the Yankees to correct the direction they've taken the last five years and will afford them the short period of time necessary to navigate a path in which they can prosper with better results for a long time to come. It's not as simple as just about Cashman, but moreso on how to run a baseball organization the right way while hopefully achieving the desired results. Anyhow, take a look at the GMs in St. Louis and Atlanta who have taken a similar approach and nobody is calling them a moron either. Just because the Yankees have more resources than everybody else doesn't mean they have to be foolish with them which they've been the last five years. As far as I'm concern, the Yankees were five years too late in taking this step and if they had better results in their scouting and major league development during that time than maybe this step wouldn't have been necessary, but the reality is that it is.
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED, I say, DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED
YankeePride1967
12-18-05, 07:50 AM
we are doooooommmmmmeeeeedd we may win 10 games next year. Opening day is only a few days away, what is Cashman waiting for! A good GM would have offered Nomar 5 years at $75 million to make him feel wanted. Come on Brian, be creative!
BroadwayBomber55
12-18-05, 11:00 AM
If Brian Cashman said jumping off a bridge was a good idea, would you do it?
The only way I jump off a bridge is to go skinny dipping, not because the Yankees are losing.
Darth_Takeo
12-18-05, 11:20 AM
Cash is close to pulling the trigger on a megadeal that will send Sheff, Small, Wang, and prospect Sean Henn to the Cardinals for Albert Pujols' batting gloves and a piece of the old Busch stadium.
Weee!
27IsNext
12-18-05, 11:56 AM
Offering Nomar any more than $6 million a year would've been a huge mistake. Glad we didn't try and overpay.
MiamiKat
12-18-05, 12:07 PM
God I hope so. This "We have a plan, we're just not explaining it or demonstrating it" is eerily similar to a John Kerry campaign.
Hopefully something happens in two days.
The difference, of course, between Kerry and Cashman is that Kerry had an obligation to disclose his mystery plans to the voters while Cashman would only hurt the Yankees (and, by extension, the fans) by going public.
And two days is a ridiculous deadline given that the non-tender deadline is December 20 (IIRC) and Spring Training starts in February. (EDIT: I forgot what day it was today :o ...still, two days is a little aggressive. Not everything will or should be done ASAP.)
Given the crazy FA market and the relatively few holes the Yankees have compared to other teams, patience is a virtue. As is Cashman keeping his plans close to the vest.
YankeePride1967
12-18-05, 12:39 PM
Offering Nomar any more than $6 million a year would've been a huge mistake. Glad we didn't try and overpay.
If Bob Klapisch is to be believed, we did. On XM, he said the Yanks offered a guaranteed $6.5 million (he didn't say if the Yanks offered any incentives beyond that).
ryanthe13th
12-18-05, 01:54 PM
we are doooooommmmmmeeeeedd we may win 10 games next year. Opening day is only a few days away, what is Cashman waiting for! A good GM would have offered Nomar 5 years at $75 million to make him feel wanted. Come on Brian, be creative!
Yeah, that is exactly what I wanted :thatsodd:.
Mattpat11
12-18-05, 02:13 PM
Hey, it might be alright with you for the Yankees to have a 205-210M payroll again . I don't want it that high, but I certainly hope that the Yankees understand that its completely unacceptable to have Crosby and/or Phillips in the starting lineup. I have a horrible feeling that Cashman is either straight cutting off his nose to spite his face or outsmarting himself by stickinh with these two too long.
And two days is a ridiculous deadline given that the non-tender deadline is December 20 (IIRC) and Spring Training starts in February. (EDIT: I forgot what day it was today :o ...still, two days is a little aggressive. Not everything will or should be done ASAP.) I didnt mean it as a deadline. I meant I hope we do something after people are non-tendered.
YankeePride1967
12-18-05, 02:57 PM
I don't want it that high, but I certainly hope that the Yankees understand that its completely unacceptable to have Crosby and/or Phillips in the starting lineup. I have a horrible feeling that Cashman is either straight cutting off his nose to spite his face or outsmarting himself by stickinh with these two too long.
I didnt mean it as a deadline. I meant I hope we do something after people are non-tendered.
See the Crosby thread in ITL, Crosby will not be our opening day CF.
YankeePride1967
12-18-05, 03:01 PM
Yeah, that is exactly what I wanted :thatsodd:.
well since we already did more than we should have (bid more than $6 million for a player that has missed a MINIMUM of half the season in three of the last five seasons (ala Kevin Brown)) I think we went far enough. And to boot we would ask him to play a new position. I'd rather go the DFA route and sign a Choi and bring Cairo back as the utility person than overpay Nomah.
RobbiMan
12-18-05, 04:33 PM
well since we already did more than we should have (bid more than $6 million for a player that has missed a MINIMUM of half the season in three of the last five seasons (ala Kevin Brown)) I think we went far enough. And to boot we would ask him to play a new position. I'd rather go the DFA route and sign a Choi and bring Cairo back as the utility person than overpay Nomah.
Choi would be a starter on most teams...besides, the Dodgers could get something for him in a trade. If he was non-tendered why would he choose to be platoon player?
longtimeyankeefan
12-18-05, 04:52 PM
Choi would be a starter on most teams...besides, the Dodgers could get something for him in a trade. If he was non-tendered why would he choose to be platoon player?
I also have to wonder why, when he made $351,500 last year, people believe that the Dodgers would choose to non-tender him as opposed to offering him a contract and going to arbitration? Even in arbitration, he probably will get no more than $1.5M to $2.0M - if Choi has such an upside, as certain members of this forum suggest, then some team would be willing to take a shot at him at that salary.
27IsNext
12-18-05, 05:35 PM
If Bob Klapisch is to be believed, we did. On XM, he said the Yanks offered a guaranteed $6.5 million (he didn't say if the Yanks offered any incentives beyond that).
I would have been okay with that.
If this is true, there is NO basis for criticizing Cashman in this instance. Nomar, preferring the West Coast and hating pack of wolves media cities, simply wanted to be in LA.
Yankees1962
12-18-05, 06:46 PM
I don't want it that high, but I certainly hope that the Yankees understand that its completely unacceptable to have Crosby and/or Phillips in the starting lineup. I have a horrible feeling that Cashman is either straight cutting off his nose to spite his face or outsmarting himself by stickinh with these two too long.
I didnt mean it as a deadline. I meant I hope we do something after people are non-tendered.
You're going to tell the Yankees what is unacceptable after the money they have spent over the last 10 years in trying to win as many WS championships as possible? Give me a break!
Mattpat11
12-18-05, 06:48 PM
You're going to tell the Yankees what is unacceptable after the money they have spent over the last 10 years in trying to win as many WS championships as possible? Give me a break!Damn right I am. I put WAY too much time, money and energy in to this team every year for them to knowingly and willingly put out a bad team this year when there are other options.
porsche986
12-18-05, 06:52 PM
Before report:
Offering Nomar any more than $6 million a year would've been a huge mistake. Glad we didn't try and overpay.
After report:
If Bob Klapisch is to be believed, we did. On XM, he said the Yanks offered a guaranteed $6.5 million (he didn't say if the Yanks offered any incentives beyond that)
I would have been okay with that.
Hmmmmm...
Yankees1962
12-18-05, 06:52 PM
Damn right I am. I put WAY too much time, money and energy in to this team every year for them to knowingly and willingly put out a bad team this year when there are other options.
One day, you'll get a taste of some humility for being a Yankee fan and when that day comes, you'll finally be a baseball fan like the rest of us that have suffered through our team's struggles and I'm not talking about losing some playoff series.
longtimeyankeefan
12-18-05, 06:55 PM
One day, you'll get a taste of some humility for being a Yankee fan and when that day comes, you'll finally be a baseball fan like the rest of us that have suffered through our team's struggles and I'm not talking about losing some playoff series.
'62 - how fondly I remember the Horace Clarke days.
Mattpat11
12-18-05, 06:55 PM
One day, you'll get a taste of some humility for being a Yankee fan and when that day comes, you'll finally be a baseball fan like the rest of us that have suffered through our team's struggles and I'm not talking about losing some playoff series.Yes, I'm not a baseball fan because I want my favorite team to be stocked with major league players. Whatever.
Yankees1962
12-18-05, 06:58 PM
Yes, I'm not a baseball fan because I want my favorite team to be stocked with major league players. Whatever.
If you think that's all I was saying to you then I guess there is nothing else to say.
Spiker101
12-18-05, 07:00 PM
'62 - how fondly I remember the Horace Clarke days.
Oh, I remember those days; I'm just not sure you could call it fondly.
Mattpat11
12-18-05, 07:00 PM
If you think that's all I was saying to you then I guess there is nothing else to say.No, please, enlighten me. Explain how wanting my favorite team to be good makes me a non-baseball fan.
I'd like this knowledge.
Yankees1962
12-18-05, 07:03 PM
'62 - how fondly I remember the Horace Clarke days.
Those were the days that my love for the Yankees really culitvated itself because instead of kicking butts and taking names, we were getting our rear ends handed to us by teams like the Orioles and Tigers.
longtimeyankeefan
12-18-05, 07:26 PM
Oh, I remember those days; I'm just not sure you could call it fondly.
see the sentiment below
Those were the days that my love for the Yankees really culitvated itself because instead of kicking butts and taking names, we were getting our rear ends handed to us by teams like the Orioles and Tigers.
Those were the days, my friend.
We thought they'd never end.
Seriously, I became a Yankee fan around the time that their glorious run ended with the 1964 World Series - I cried when we lost that WS.
I never waivered from my love of all things pinstriped - despite being surrounded by a family of traitorous Red Sox fans. The biggest compliment that has ever been paid to me was last summer when my brother acknowledged that I never waivered as a Yankee fan all these years.
Yankees1962
12-18-05, 07:40 PM
[QUOTE=Seriously, I became a Yankee fan around the time that their glorious run ended with the 1964 World Series - I cried when we lost that WS.
I never waivered from my love of all things pinstriped - despite being surrounded by a family of traitorous Red Sox fans. The biggest compliment that has ever been paid to me was last summer when my brother acknowledged that I never waivered as a Yankee fan all these years.[/QUOTE]
I might be a little older than you because I went to my first Yankee game in 1961, but I don't have much memory of it, but I do remember the homerun chase and the WS that year. However, I have vivid memories of the 1962 season, since I went to 4 or 5 ballgames that season. Though, I loved the Yankees, I didn't cry after the 1964 WS like I did after Koufax and Drysdale dusted them off in 1963, because my favorite ballplayer back then and till this day was Bob Gibson. However, the 1965 season brought a lot of tears and it didn't get much better for awhile.
longtimeyankeefan
12-18-05, 07:49 PM
I might be a little older than you because I went to my first Yankee game in 1961, but I don't have much memory of it, but I do remember the homerun chase and the WS that year. However, I have vivid memories of the 1962 season, since I went to 4 or 5 ballgames that season. Though, I loved the Yankees, I didn't cry after the 1964 WS like I did after Koufax and Drysdale dusted them off in 1963, because my favorite ballplayer back then and till this day was Bob Gibson. However, the 1965 season brought a lot of tears and it didn't get much better for awhile.
I suspect that we are actually close to the same age - I, too, remember the 1961 season but only barely.
Spiker101
12-18-05, 08:12 PM
I suspect that we are actually close to the same age - I, too, remember the 1961 season but only barely.
I'd guess I am a couple of years older than you and 1962, because my tears came on Maz.'s homer in '60. To this day, I can't believe we lost that series. We only outscored the Bucs 1643 to 10 but still lost. It still bugs me, dammit.
YankeePride1967
12-18-05, 08:12 PM
Choi would be a starter on most teams...besides, the Dodgers could get something for him in a trade. If he was non-tendered why would he choose to be platoon player?
I have no idea why he would be, he'd be a full-time player here, some at 1B, some at DH.
YankeePride1967
12-18-05, 08:14 PM
Damn right I am. I put WAY too much time, money and energy in to this team every year for them to knowingly and willingly put out a bad team this year when there are other options.
How do you figure we will be a bad team? ah the assume the worst philosophy. We have the same lineup, same rotation with a hopefully healthy Pavano returning and a better bullpen, how is that a "bad" team?
YankeePride1967
12-18-05, 08:16 PM
If you were to rank the fans of the 30 MLB teams and rank them in the order of those with the right to complain, the Yankee fans would be 30th in line.
If you were to rank the fans of the 30 MLB teams and rank them in the order of those with the right to complain, the Yankee fans would be 30th in line.
Yep.
...
goin for 27
12-18-05, 08:48 PM
How do you figure we will be a bad team? ah the assume the worst philosophy. We have the same lineup, same rotation with a hopefully healthy Pavano returning and a better bullpen, how is that a "bad" team?
I don't think that this is a bad team, but I can see that other teams may have improved more than the Yanks, not a great recipe.
Healthy Pavano would be great, but then you should assume a healthy Schilling, and a healthy Halladay as well. That is a bit worrisome.
Bullpen - This remains to be seen how much it has improved, if at all. Gordon is a better pitcher than Farnsworth. Maybe Farnsworth will have a better year than Gordon, as Gordon should begin to decline, but maybe not. Myers was a nice pickup, hopefully Villone can add some type of value. However, it certainly is not night and day better, though another addition could help.
Also, Crosby in CF is really not helping this team. I firmly feel that Crosby will be extremely exposed if in the lineup every day. Again, I have posted many times, that I firmly believe that Crosby will not be out there come opening day. The Yanks paid dearly for not fixing CF last year, I cannot imagine that they would commit that big a blunder again.
I also don't think it would be negative to not expect Small and Chacon to perform anywhere near where they were last year, which is ground that needs to be made up.
Finally, the team is just another full year older, with specific concern of course, for RJ, Moose, and Posada.
Will this team as currently constructed win 95 games? If I could take it off the table right now, I certainly would. However, it could easily win 89. That is STILL a good team, but I am really hoping that the Yanks make some more moves, and I think that they will. Last year, many of us posted that it would be a difficult time for awhile, due to the bloated and inflexible contracts that the Yanks carry. I think that this year certainly shows that this is the case. Bernie/Brown's contracts coming off helped a bit, but Cashman has an extremely tough job right now.
Regardless, the Yanks will certainly not be a bad team next year, but could very easily miss the postseason for the first time in a long time.
My main concerns moving forward are....
1- Health and decline rate of RJ/Moose (This of course is an uncontrollable)
2 - Center Field. This MUST be addressed, Bubba is not a regular MLB CF'er.
3 - Bullpen - still needs help. I am not counting on Villone to back Farnsworth alone
4 - Catcher. I think we need a backup who can really spell Posada innings.
The last three are controllable concerns that absolutely must be addressed. If they are, the Yanks will be in great shape entering 2006.
YankeePride1967
12-18-05, 08:58 PM
I don't think that this is a bad team, but I can see that other teams may have improved more than the Yanks, not a great recipe.
Healthy Pavano would be great, but then you should assume a healthy Schilling, and a healthy Halladay as well. That is a bit worrisome.
Bullpen - This remains to be seen how much it has improved, if at all. Gordon is a better pitcher than Farnsworth. Maybe Farnsworth will have a better year than Gordon, as Gordon should begin to decline, but maybe not. Myers was a nice pickup, hopefully Villone can add some type of value. However, it certainly is not night and day better, though another addition could help.
Also, Crosby in CF is really not helping this team. I firmly feel that Crosby will be extremely exposed if in the lineup every day. Again, I have posted many times, that I firmly believe that Crosby will not be out there come opening day. The Yanks paid dearly for not fixing CF last year, I cannot imagine that they would commit that big a blunder again.
I also don't think it would be negative to not expect Small and Chacon to perform anywhere near where they were last year, which is ground that needs to be made up.
Finally, the team is just another full year older, with specific concern of course, for RJ, Moose, and Posada.
Will this team as currently constructed win 95 games? If I could take it off the table right now, I certainly would. However, it could easily win 89. That is STILL a good team, but I am really hoping that the Yanks make some more moves, and I think that they will. Last year, many of us posted that it would be a difficult time for awhile, due to the bloated and inflexible contracts that the Yanks carry. I think that this year certainly shows that this is the case. Bernie/Brown's contracts coming off helped a bit, but Cashman has an extremely tough job right now.
Regardless, the Yanks will certainly not be a bad team next year, but could very easily miss the postseason for the first time in a long time.
My main concerns moving forward are....
1- Health and decline rate of RJ/Moose (This of course is an uncontrollable)
2 - Center Field. This MUST be addressed, Bubba is not a regular MLB CF'er.
3 - Bullpen - still needs help. I am not counting on Villone to back Farnsworth alone
4 - Catcher. I think we need a backup who can really spell Posada innings.
The last three are controllable concerns that absolutely must be addressed. If they are, the Yanks will be in great shape entering 2006.
I fully agree that we have holes that need fixing, however in the post I was quoting, the poster called the Yanks a "bad" team.
27IsNext
12-18-05, 08:59 PM
Before report:
After report:
Hmmmmm...
Yeah, because 0.5 million is an awful lot.
My main concerns moving forward are....
1- Health and decline rate of RJ/Moose (This of course is an uncontrollable)
2 - Center Field. This MUST be addressed, Bubba is not a regular MLB CF'er.
3 - Bullpen - still needs help. I am not counting on Villone to back Farnsworth alone
4 - Catcher. I think we need a backup who can really spell Posada innings.
The last three are controllable concerns that absolutely must be addressed. If they are, the Yanks will be in great shape entering 2006.
If Sturtze isn't traded we have an entire bullpen. Sturtze, Myers, Villone, Farnsworth, Small/Wright, Mo. Longman, Setup man, lefties, thats it. If your concern is that Sturtze isn't good enough, well, we picked up his option for 1.5 mil, so we are stuck with him unless we trade him.
Dotel would a be good pickup, but he probably won't impact anything until late May and its hard to count on him too much anyway.
Isn't Kelly Stinnet our new backup catcher? We need another one?
goin for 27
12-18-05, 09:43 PM
If Sturtze isn't traded we have an entire bullpen. Sturtze, Myers, Villone, Farnsworth, Small/Wright, Mo. Longman, Setup man, lefties, thats it. If your concern is that Sturtze isn't good enough, well, we picked up his option for 1.5 mil, so we are stuck with him unless we trade him.
Dotel would a be good pickup, but he probably won't impact anything until late May and its hard to count on him too much anyway.
Isn't Kelly Stinnet our new backup catcher? We need another one?
I think what Cashman is going to try to do is get another Villone or two, and see out of all the arms, who sticks going into the season. If we are done, I don't love it. I don't have as much faith in Farnsworth as some around here, and he needs help. I have not been on the Sturtze bandwagon ever, and Villone is really a flyer.
I should have worded my catcher need differently. If they keep Stinnet fine, but I would like to see a quality catcher who could split time with Posada. If his decline continues, it will be tough to see him out there a ton next year.
Mattpat11
12-18-05, 11:38 PM
How do you figure we will be a bad team? ah the assume the worst philosophy. We have the same lineup,Well, a worse one, but okay.
same rotation
A year older.
hopefully healthy Pavano returning Yay.
and a better bullpen Maybe. We lost our ace set up man, and added a bunch of career mediocrities. I am pretty happy with Myers.
ChrisV82
12-19-05, 02:14 AM
Peter King just noted we have 11 of 13 games on the road to open the season. That is bothersome.
Yankees1962
12-19-05, 04:21 AM
Regarding the bullpen, Torre needs to use his entire bullpen and stop pitching guys more than one inning unless it's the long man. I would like to see 4-5 bullpen arms have about 65-70 appearances with 70 or less innings. I prefer Rivera only appearing in about 60 games. Torre has to fully utilize his bullpen arms to keep them sharp and relatively rested without over-taxing them.
If Torre does that and the Yankees starters remain healthy and effective, we will have a better team than last year's.
Cashman wants to have a great season, but he wants to position the Yankees in a way to take advantage of next year's free agent market which should be deeper and better than this year's class. I wouldn't think any premium player that will be a free agent after next season will not sign an extension until testing the free agent water because the free agent market is starting to over inflate in salaries again.
The person filling in on the Michael Kay Show today (didn't catch his name) made some good points (but some horrible suggestions). Obviously, he said we need a new center fielder. But, he also pointed out that the current bullpen is solid, but not great, especially since their is no excellent 7th-inning man. He argued that with the current payroll, we should be able to afford great pitchers for middle relief and setup. While I do realize that payroll may be lower next season, I think that at least one more respectable pitcher should be aquired.
He also brought up some less-mentioned topics. For example, who is the Yankees DH. Currently, there is no one who is good to fill that position (assume Giambi takes 1st). To me, the urgency to fill this position is just as high as that of center field. The last position he thought could be fixed was catcher. While Posada is a good catcher and will be fine for this season, I would not be opposed to getting someone who can hit a bit better. However, that shouldn't be a major concern at all.
My personal opinion is that several potential trades and free agents that could've been useful have been passed on by the Yankees thus far this offseason. Some action should be taken to fill CF, DH, and that last bullpen spot.
Yankeeah
12-19-05, 08:50 PM
But, he also pointed out that the current bullpen is solid, but not great, especially since their is no excellent 7th-inning man. He argued that with the current payroll, we should be able to afford great pitchers for middle relief and setup. While I do realize that payroll may be lower next season, I think that at least one more respectable pitcher should be aquired.
Did he give any names? Building a bullpen is a crap shoot. Too many BP pitchers are inconsistent. Besides, we already have 12 (not counting Proctor) pitchers. We won't be adding any more guys unless two guys get traded/cut. The only other name I see us adding is Dotel.
My personal opinion is that several potential trades and free agents that could've been useful have been passed on by the Yankees thus far this offseason. Some action should be taken to fill CF, DH, and that last bullpen spot.
What are some of the free agents or trades that would have filled CF or the pen that we passed on without breaking the bank?
Matsui55
12-19-05, 08:55 PM
The person filling in on the Michael Kay Show today (didn't catch his name) made some good points (but some horrible suggestions). Obviously, he said we need a new center fielder. But, he also pointed out that the current bullpen is solid, but not great, especially since their is no excellent 7th-inning man. He argued that with the current payroll, we should be able to afford great pitchers for middle relief and setup. While I do realize that payroll may be lower next season, I think that at least one more respectable pitcher should be aquired.
He also brought up some less-mentioned topics. For example, who is the Yankees DH. Currently, there is no one who is good to fill that position (assume Giambi takes 1st). To me, the urgency to fill this position is just as high as that of center field. The last position he thought could be fixed was catcher. While Posada is a good catcher and will be fine for this season, I would not be opposed to getting someone who can hit a bit better. However, that shouldn't be a major concern at all.
My personal opinion is that several potential trades and free agents that could've been useful have been passed on by the Yankees thus far this offseason. Some action should be taken to fill CF, DH, and that last bullpen spot.
I don't think this is a problem. The Yanks clearly were waiting to see what shook out with the non-tender process and with Nomar. I think that now it is clear no really good bats are going to break free, it is time to make a move that will have big consequences down the road.
I believe that it is time to move Posada to DH full time, with only occasional appearances behind the plate. Then, with it likely that Hall in TB and Molina will still be available, sign the one that will take a two year deal (likely Hall).
The effect of this move is that it would prevent Posada's option from exercising, making him a FA at the end of the season. That will open up a lot of money down the road that can be used for a younger C (or even to take a DH contract from someone else). It will also improve our DH situation, as Posada has ALWAYS been a better hitter than a C. If we got a .265 20 90 season from Posada at DH, we should be VERY happy.
I also think that ensuring that the Posada money gets freed next year, and that a starting C is signed for at most two years allows the Yanks to explore using Pavano to get a younger C. I know that there was speculation that the Yanks were trying to squeeze Rivera out of Seattle. Maybe the Yanks can look into Laird from Texas.
Granted, those C are a big offensive fall off from Posada, but the cost is beginning to exceed the return there. Remember as well that the Yanks won multiple World Series rings with Girardi behind the plate.
Yankeeah,
Well....He suggested that we get Brad Lidge....Crazy....
Anyway, a few guys that we let get away:
Bob Howry ($12M, 3Y)
Todd Jones ($11M, 2Y)
Bob Wickman ($5M, 1Y)
Damaso Marte (trade)
(Not as many as I originally thought.) But, now the bullpen options are terrible. And, if someone like Farnsworth underperforms or gets injured during the season, the team could be screwed.
Yankeeah
12-19-05, 09:15 PM
Yankeeah,
Well....He suggested that we get Brad Lidge....Crazy....
Anyway, a few guys that we let get away:
Bob Howry ($12M, 3Y)
Todd Jones ($11M, 2Y)
Bob Wickman ($5M, 1Y)
Damaso Marte (trade)
(Not as many as I originally thought.) But, now the bullpen options are terrible. And, if someone like Farnsworth underperforms or gets injured during the season, the team could be screwed.
Wickman puts way too many men on base, just an accident waiting to happen. I'd rather have Sturtze than Howry or Jones (especially considering price), and I doubt they would come here anyway. Marte is a moot point now that we have Villone and Myers. If we add Dotel and trade Proctor I would be ok with that pen, though it's still one too many.
AMYanks
12-19-05, 09:35 PM
Yankeeah,
Well....He suggested that we get Brad Lidge....Crazy....
Anyway, a few guys that we let get away:
Bob Howry ($12M, 3Y)
Todd Jones ($11M, 2Y)
Bob Wickman ($5M, 1Y)
Damaso Marte (trade)
(Not as many as I originally thought.) But, now the bullpen options are terrible. And, if someone like Farnsworth underperforms or gets injured during the season, the team could be screwed.
Dotel is still available, and is better than all those guys when he is healthy.
ryanthe13th
12-19-05, 09:39 PM
Add Seanez to that list, Boston just acquired him. Boston's bullpen is looking pretty impressive with Seanez, Mota, Papelbon, Timlin, Foulke.
goin for 27
12-19-05, 09:39 PM
The person filling in on the Michael Kay Show today (didn't catch his name) made some good points (but some horrible suggestions). Obviously, he said we need a new center fielder. But, he also pointed out that the current bullpen is solid, but not great, especially since their is no excellent 7th-inning man.
I did not hear today, but I would agree with this. The bullpen has a chance to be solid, but certainly not great. I would like to see them get Dotel, and hopefully he is ready sooner than later.
Spiker101
12-20-05, 12:53 AM
Peter King just noted we have 11 of 13 games on the road to open the season. That is bothersome.
Not me. Most of the eleven are in California and inside. With the age on this team's rotation, the more the Yanks avoid cold weather, the better I like it. It'll all even out anyway, unless Bud Selig has another move up his sleeve.
Not me. Most of the eleven are in California and inside. With the age on this team's rotation, the more the Yanks avoid cold weather, the better I like it. It'll all even out anyway, unless Bud Selig has another move up his sleeve.
Knowing Bud, he'll probably think it will be wise for the Yanks to start their season with a series in Murmansk.
Spiker101
12-20-05, 01:17 AM
Knowing Bud, he'll probably think it will be wise for the Yanks to start their season with a series in Murmansk.
:D I see you and I hold similar opinions about our beloved commissioner.
Yankeeah,
Well....He suggested that we get Brad Lidge....Crazy....
Anyway, a few guys that we let get away:
Bob Howry ($12M, 3Y)
Todd Jones ($11M, 2Y)
Bob Wickman ($5M, 1Y)
Damaso Marte (trade)
(Not as many as I originally thought.) But, now the bullpen options are terrible. And, if someone like Farnsworth underperforms or gets injured during the season, the team could be screwed.
That's right. He had crazy and stupid moves. Sign Clemens, even though it will cost you 20 million. Trade Pavano and Cash for Lidge (as if Houston will ever do that!! :confused:
Max Kellerman, I think was his name. He wants Cashman to think out of the box. I think Max is out of the box. :eek:
That's right. He had crazy and stupid moves. Sign Clemens, even though it will cost you 20 million. Trade Pavano and Cash for Lidge (as if Houston will ever do that!! :confused:
Max Kellerman, I think was his name. He wants Cashman to think out of the box. I think Max is out of the box. :eek:
At least Kellerman is a fan, but he is extremely annoying and not really incredibly knowledgeble about baseball. He's pretty much of the Steven A Smith and Jim Rome school of stating some controversial opinion really loudly and ramming it down people's throats.
Yankeeah,
Well....He suggested that we get Brad Lidge....Crazy....
Anyway, a few guys that we let get away:
Bob Howry ($12M, 3Y)
Todd Jones ($11M, 2Y)
Bob Wickman ($5M, 1Y)
Damaso Marte (trade)
(Not as many as I originally thought.) But, now the bullpen options are terrible. And, if someone like Farnsworth underperforms or gets injured during the season, the team could be screwed.
Wickman probably gave a discount to the Indians to keep him. I think he would have gotten 2 years and more than 5 mil/yr on the market (GMs tend to overpay for anyone that has performed well in the closer role ever), and he is very old and just had his best year, and we don't do quite as well with groundball pitchers vs. strikeout pitchers.
Jones at 11/5 is a big overpay. Howry's deal is probably ok, which just shows how dumb this reliever market is (relievers almost never have 3 good years in a row).
I think the Yankees have made the most cost-efficient upgrades to their bullpen of anyone in the league (except maybe the Red Sox, getting Mota and Seanez, but they haven't made as many moves total).
flymick24
12-20-05, 09:16 AM
Add Seanez to that list, Boston just acquired him. Boston's bullpen is looking pretty impressive with Seanez, Mota, Papelbon, Timlin, Foulke.
yes, their bullpen will be solid, but only if a lot of things happen at the same time:
1) seanez stays healthy for a whole season (his track record says it's doubtful)
2) mota returns to 2003 form (and having pitched in MTL, LA, and FL his whole career, who knows how he'll handle a big city like BOS?)
3) papelbon will probably be shifted into the rotation if they trade wells, but how will hansen take to a full season?
4) foulke is healthy, reverts to old form
before any sox fans jump down my throat, i understand that the yankees bullpen has just as many concerns. but i just thought i'd stress that neither bullpen has an edge as of now.
38Special
12-20-05, 09:31 AM
Also their rotation is shaky at best
Schilling - turning 39, looked like crap even when he was back from the injury
Clement - BABIP!!!!! UNLUCKY!!! hahahaha
Arroyo - His loopy curveball and average fastball was a flash in the pan
Wakefield - Good for a 4 ERA with a mix of dominant and below average performances. Very dependable
Beckett - Mediocre Road ERA + Moving to AL + Injury Concerns + Tremendous stuff = Somewhere between Dominance and Failure ;)
Wells - waah waah i wanna be back with my biker buddies
Papelbon - Great talent, might be stuck in pen again if they dont get rid of guys
Add Seanez to that list, Boston just acquired him. Boston's bullpen is looking pretty impressive with Seanez, Mota, Papelbon, Timlin, Foulke.
I don't see how that is so solid. I think its relatively average. I think the guy that has the best season is Papelbon.
Timlin will probably decline some (inherited runners scoring blah blah) and he is 40.
Seanez is old, coming from an extreme pitcher's park in the NL West, and he is one of those completely unpredictable relievers (some good years, some bad years, career ERA+ 102). If he strikes out a ton of guys again he could be pretty good, but you can say the same and more about Kyle Farnsworth.
Mota just had a pretty poor season in a great pitcher's park. He could recover, or maybe not.
With all the mind games Foulke had to be going through, the way it seemed he didn't really like Boston, and his average fastball, I really doubt he returns to form. I think he gets some of his changeup back and is an average to good reliever, but who knows.
They don't have a good lefty or a closer yet if Foulke doesn't make a full recovery. Maybe by midseason Hansen or Papelbon will have grown into the role, but they could easily fail at it.
What's so incredibly solid? (I think the Yankees bullpen is much better as is).
Yankees1962
12-20-05, 12:26 PM
Seanez is old, coming from the AL West, and he is one of those completely unpredictable relievers (some good years, some bad years, career ERA+ 102). If he strikes out a ton of guys again he could be pretty good, but you can say the same and more about Kyle Farnsworth.
Mota just had a pretty poor season in a great pitcher's park. He could recover, or maybe not.
Seanez actually pitched in the NL Worst Division.
Mota is another pitcher that has played in pitcher's ballparks.
If the Yankees relievers are question marks the same can be said about the Red Sox relievers and in some cases moreso.
27IsNext
12-20-05, 12:28 PM
We're DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!
Seriously, if and when Dotel gets signed, Cashman has done a heck of a job with the pen and should be commended.
We're DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!
Seriously, if and when Dotel gets signed, Cashman has done a heck of a job with the pen and should be commended.
And continue his quest for a CF!
Seanez actually pitched in the NL Worst Division.
Thats what I meant. I'll correct it.
Saenez will probably have an ERA between three and four, which is not exactly what the Yanks are looking for. But, when you look at it, not many other pitchers left in free agency are much better.
However, if we sign Dotel, we'll be better off than if we had signed Saenez (obviously).
goin for 27
12-20-05, 06:49 PM
Saenez will probably have an ERA between three and four, which is not exactly what the Yanks are looking for. But, when you look at it, not many other pitchers left in free agency are much better.
Cashman would take Seanez in a second if he could for a 3.00-4.00 era...
How is that not exactly what the Yanks are looking for?
Mike Myers has been that good once in the last 5 seasons.
Tanyon Sturtze has never posted a sub 4.00
Villone? He has not had a sub 4.00 ERA in 8 seasons.
Jaret Wright (he is in the pen for sure) ERA under 4.00 once in his entire 8 year career.
AMYanks
12-20-05, 07:14 PM
Villone? He has not had a sub 4.00 ERA in 8 seasons.
That's because he is a horrible starting pitcher. He would not have to do that here. 3.52 ERA as a reliever over the past few seasons, under 3 in the AL.
ryanthe13th
12-20-05, 07:47 PM
What's so incredibly solid? (I think the Yankees bullpen is much better as is).
I didn't say it was incredibly solid. I said that it was impressive. Some people here were campaigning for Seanez to become a Yank if I remember correctly. With the addition of Dotel, I think the Yankees bullpen and Red Sox bullpen are pretty much on par now.
flymick24
12-20-05, 07:53 PM
I didn't say it was incredibly solid. I said that it was impressive. Some people here were campaigning for Seanez to become a Yank if I remember correctly. With the addition of Dotel, I think the Yankees bullpen and Red Sox bullpen are pretty much on par now.
i think at this point, the sox pen is more of an injury-risk
YankeePride1967
12-20-05, 07:57 PM
i think at this point, the sox pen is more of an injury-risk
Considering Boston's hopeful closer in Foulke leads the injury question marks from Boston.
I didn't say it was incredibly solid. I said that it was impressive. Some people here were campaigning for Seanez to become a Yank if I remember correctly. With the addition of Dotel, I think the Yankees bullpen and Red Sox bullpen are pretty much on par now.
I disagree (with the last sentence). And you are just playing semantics with the solid vs. impressive debate. I would usually call impressive better than solid anyway.
I already addressed the Red Sox bullpen. The only one who has been consistently good and healthy over the past 3 years or so is Timlin, and he is 40 and let a ton of inherited runners score last year. Seanez had a great last year in the best pitcher's park in a horrible horrible horrible division, and is 37. He should help the Red Sox, and I like him a good amount over Tanyon Sturtze, but if anyone is a candidate for a relapse/off year its him.
Foulke just had an awful, injury filled year where he mentioned not really liking Boston or baseball in general (he is 33 and has a 89 mph fastball. Unless his changeup makes a huge rebound he's not gonna be the old Foulke. He'll probably be effective, but not dominant closer material). Mota just had a bad year in a pitcher's park. Papelbon could be good, and then he could be moved to the rotation (so he might not help the bullpen). Who is the closer? Who gets Giambi/Matsui out?
The Yankees have the greatest closer of all time coming off his best season.
Farnsworth just had a very good year where he developed a great new pitch in addition to a 100 mph fastball. He'll regress some, but expect at least good to great numbers for a 7th inning guy (3.5 ERA, 10 K/9).
Dotel had surgery last year and his worst year overall in 2004 as a closer, when he was still pretty effective. He has been a great, great setupman over his career. When he comes back he should help.
Myers gets lefties out and always has.
Villone can get lefties out pretty well and pitch average to poorly against right handers. Between these 2, Ortiz is out.
Sturtze/Small/Wright ends up as the longman. They are all fine for the task (Wright given he stays healthy).
We have the best closer, we have good lefties. Between Farnsworth and Dotel, I guarantee we have a good setupman. How is Boston's bullpen on par? Every single guy is a questionmark, even Papelbon could hit a wall (he has relatively little experience).
goin for 27
12-20-05, 09:32 PM
Foulke just had an awful, injury filled year where he mentioned not really liking Boston or baseball in general (he is 33 and has a 89 mph fastball. Unless his curveball makes a huge rebound he's not gonna be the old Foulke.
Curveball? Foulke is, and always has been a 2 pitch pitcher. Fastball, changeup. Also, like any pitcher, it is not the velocity, it is the separation between the two pitches. Both look identical coming out of the hand. He lost that due to injury last year, and though he may be effective again, I think it is a total crapshoot. That said, he never had a curve.
flymick24
12-20-05, 09:35 PM
if the rumors are true and damon has indeed signed with the yankees, then the sky really is falling
noneckwilliams
12-20-05, 09:55 PM
if the rumors are true and damon has indeed signed with the yankees, then the sky really is falling
i agree. this really takes the life out of me. i can't root for the guy regardless of what laundry he wears. screw steinbrenner and screw damon.
Yankees1962
12-20-05, 10:32 PM
i agree. this really takes the life out of me. i can't root for the guy regardless of what laundry he wears. screw steinbrenner and screw damon.
That's actually funny coming from a Yankee fan. I've learned a long time ago that in the free agent era, these players are nothing more than mercenaries and the Yankees have always been about buying the best of them.
Curveball? Foulke is, and always has been a 2 pitch pitcher. Fastball, changeup. Also, like any pitcher, it is not the velocity, it is the separation between the two pitches. Both look identical coming out of the hand. He lost that due to injury last year, and though he may be effective again, I think it is a total crapshoot. That said, he never had a curve.
Yes, changeup is what I meant. I'm sorry, but I'm glad you combed my post for small factual inaccuracies instead of meaning.
Hehe im just kidding thanks for catching my mistake.
i think at this point, the sox pen is more of an injury-risk
True enough.
SO is their rotation, lead off by the chief injury question mark, Schilling.
Jersey Yankee
12-21-05, 05:44 AM
True enough.
SO is their rotation, lead off by the chief injury question mark, Schilling.
Curt Schilling is beyond a question mark. Johnny Damon is a question mark. The only question about Curt Schilling is whether or not he can at least prove himself somewhat useful in 2006.
Jersey Yankee
12-21-05, 05:50 AM
That's actually funny coming from a Yankee fan. I've learned a long time ago that in the free agent era, these players are nothing more than mercenaries and the Yankees have always been about buying the best of them.
Debatable if Damon's amongst the "best" out there. His slumping BA in the 2nd half didn't impress, and his wet noodle arm has never impressed.
He covers lots of ground, is very good on the basepaths and as a leadoff hitter, but Jeter's OBP is higher.
Yankees1962
12-21-05, 07:00 AM
Debatable if Damon's amongst the "best" out there. His slumping BA in the 2nd half didn't impress, and his wet noodle arm has never impressed.
He covers lots of ground, is very good on the basepaths and as a leadoff hitter, but Jeter's OBP is higher.
It's so easy to cherry pick a short period of time when it comes to stats so you can support your argument.
ring403
12-21-05, 07:17 AM
Debatable if Damon's amongst the "best" out there. His slumping BA in the 2nd half didn't impress, and his wet noodle arm has never impressed.
If he hadn't been injured, Damon's second half dropoff would be more of a concern.
Dooley Womack
12-21-05, 08:35 AM
The sky is opening up and letting in some sunshine. :)
yankeebot
12-21-05, 08:41 AM
The sky is opening up and letting in some sunshine. :)
Does this mean you are going to ease up on Cashman? Maybe just a tiny bit? :)
38Special
12-21-05, 08:52 AM
that Damon thread should be renamed "FIRE!!!!...PANIC!!!!!"
Yankees1962
12-21-05, 09:02 AM
that Damon thread should be renamed "FIRE!!!!...PANIC!!!!!"
Some of these fans are never satisfied because they want the Yankees to operate the way they want them to. Much of it is nothing more than fan frustration.
Some of these fans are never satisfied because they want the Yankees to operate the way they want them to. Much of it is nothing more than fan frustration.I'm assuming you've read the arguments put forth in the Damon thread... ? Have you?
38Special
12-21-05, 10:38 AM
I'm assuming you've read the arguments put forth in the Damon thread... ? Have you?
There are decent arguments but leave out the other options. Crosby obviously wasn't one, and if we were to trade for a Michaels or Reed with the only chips we have, Sheff would be forced to play RF, and we'd still have no idea what production we'd be getting defensively and offensively out of center field.
And this crying about his arm is really something
There are decent arguments but leave out the other options. Crosby obviously wasn't one, and if we were to trade for a Michaels or Reed with the only chips we have, Sheff would be forced to play RF, and we'd still have no idea what production we'd be getting defensively and offensively out of center field.
And this crying about his arm is really somethingThe other options are only alternatives.
What I don't like is that I think we overpaid for him for 4 years. He's going to hit, sure, but we didn't really need ALL his offense. A better fielder is what was needed. Also, I'm not liking this NTC (limited or not).
Spiker101
12-21-05, 11:37 AM
The other options are only alternatives.
What I don't like is that I think we overpaid for him for 4 years. He's going to hit, sure, but we didn't really need ALL his offense. A better fielder is what was needed. Also, I'm not liking this NTC (limited or not).
I really don't get it. I mean, I really don't get it. Damon is six-seveb months older than Matsui, has no history of chronic injury problems and gets the same damn contract. And people praised the signing of Matsui and are now screaming bloody murder about Damon's deal. It makes me wonder whether it's simply because they don't LIKE Damon. Hideki might be a slightly better offensive player, though its hard to compare because their games are so different, but Damon is obviously a better defensive player and the hole Johnny fills both in the field and in the lineup was roughly the size of the Grand Canyon.
What hole in the lineup. I also think you've been smoking something that's not a cigarette if you honestly believe that Damon is "obviously a better defensive player" than Matsui.
38Special
12-21-05, 12:39 PM
What hole in the lineup. I also think you've been smoking something that's not a cigarette if you honestly believe that Damon is "obviously a better defensive player" than Matsui.
UZR and plain eye sight would confirm this
UZR and plain eye sight would confirm thisReally? Maybe UZR would, but from what I can see I wouldn't say that one is "obviously better" than the other. They're equally bad.
Where do I find UZR stats?
I really don't get it. I mean, I really don't get it. Damon is six-seveb months older than Matsui, has no history of chronic injury problems and gets the same damn contract. And people praised the signing of Matsui and are now screaming bloody murder about Damon's deal. It makes me wonder whether it's simply because they don't LIKE Damon. Hideki might be a slightly better offensive player, though its hard to compare because their games are so different, but Damon is obviously a better defensive player and the hole Johnny fills both in the field and in the lineup was roughly the size of the Grand Canyon.
Johnny is also a workout freak and now that he is married will be doing less carousing- or at least doing it at home and not late night bars.
He has a very short compact swing that seems like it will age well also
38Special
12-21-05, 12:47 PM
Really? Maybe UZR would, but from what I can see I wouldn't say that one is "obviously better" than the other. They're equally bad.
Where do I find UZR stats?
Equally Bad? What's bad about Damon's fielding? and even Matsui?
Sheffield is bad
Bernie is bad
Matsui is slightly below average
Damon is slightly above average
Trot Nixon is below average
Manny is bad
Equally Bad? What's bad about Damon's fielding? and even Matsui?
Sheffield is bad
Bernie is bad
Matsui is slightly below average
Damon is slightly above average
Trot Nixon is below average
Manny is badI'm not sure that Matsui gets the best jumps out there and I don't think Damon's arm is as good as Matsui's. Ok, they may not be bad, but they're equally average?
This is my opinion based on what I've seen on TV. I haven't looked at defensive stats. I don't even know what UZR is.
Spiker101
12-21-05, 01:43 PM
What hole in the lineup. I also think you've been smoking something that's not a cigarette if you honestly believe that Damon is "obviously a better defensive player" than Matsui.
The Yanks simply haven't had anybody who's a natural fit for the No. 2 hole for a couple of years now. With Damon, he can either hit there himself or slide Jeter down, and lest we forget Jeter was for years during the Knoblaugh era the best number two hitter in the game.
Matsui is a below average left fielder. His arm may be slightly better than Damon's but in every other respect is a lesser fielder. He doesn't get good jumps, doesn't have good range and at times he seems to have problems tracking the ball. So much so that I've wondered whether he might need glasses. It might be the sun. It is an hellacious sun field at certain hours of the day.
Much of the angst about Damon's arm is wasted I think. Because of the stadium's dimensions centerfielders much play deeper and a strong arm goes for naught.
Dooley Womack
12-21-05, 03:42 PM
Does this mean you are going to ease up on Cashman? Maybe just a tiny bit? :)
Well, I'll cut him some slack............... for a few days at least. ;)
I asked before, but didn't get an answer :(
are those Damon cropped hair pics real, ie, has there already been a press briefing?
If so--link, please. :)
Well, I'll cut him some slack............... for a few days at least. ;)
:eek: :eek: :eek:
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