View Full Version : Gordon back? / Gordon signs with Phillies
Posted in the Farnsworth thread, but in case you guys missed this: (if true, what a bullpen :ga-ga: )
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/370246p-314951c.html
Yanks work to land Farnsworth, keep Flash
BY SAM BORDEN
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER
The Yankees need bullpen help and they're looking both inside and outside to find it - preferably quickly.
They were moving close to signing former Braves closer Kyle Farnsworth last night and, in a bit of a surprise, were also in serious negotiations to bring back Tom Gordon as a key piece in the bridge to Mariano Rivera.
PoughVirginiaYankee
11-30-05, 12:14 PM
HOORAY! Gordon back, with Farnsworth as another decent arm out in the pen for the 8th sounds fantastic.
indianyanksfan
11-30-05, 12:14 PM
good. i'd rather have both than one or the other.
ryanthe13th
11-30-05, 12:15 PM
If Gordon is back, he needs to be the 7th inning man. Farnsworth should be our 8th inning man.
i dunno. that 7.79 career post season ERA makes me wish he'd sign in boston.
brosiusbuddy
11-30-05, 12:17 PM
this is good news but i hope the last line of the paragraph is not really a motivating factor for this move....
It is believed that there has been some pressure from Tampa to get involved in the flurry of activity around the majors .
TEPLimey
11-30-05, 12:24 PM
Gordon/Farnsworth can be the Nelson/Stanton for the next 2 years (and only two, since Gordon must not be offerred more). If Torre trusts both of them, he will be precluded from burning out the bullpen.
C-BUS CLIPPER
11-30-05, 12:25 PM
this is good news but i hope the last line of the paragraph is not really a motivating factor for this move.... .
Yeah, I dont like the sound of that either. T-bay is already opening their yaps?
If Gordon is back, he needs to be the 7th inning man. Farnsworth should be our 8th inning man.
Agreed.
I stress that this is a rumor at this point. ;)
NewEraYanks2527
11-30-05, 12:28 PM
If Gordon is back, he needs to be the 7th inning man. Farnsworth should be our 8th inning man.
I think it should be more about matchups than just set innings, it worked pretty well for the White Sox.
ComeBackShane47
11-30-05, 12:35 PM
I think it should be more about matchups than just set innings, it worked pretty well for the White Sox.
I think there is strong statistical evidence to support that. I hate penciling in guys for certain innings, because wouldnt we all rather have Mo face Ortiz, Manny, and Veritek in the 8th and have Gordon or whoever finsiht the game off than the other way around?
Only if this is a two-year deal. I'd rather not give Gordon a three-year deal at this stage in his career.
Wang's Groundballs
11-30-05, 12:41 PM
I hope not. He looks like he's in decline and I'd much rather spend the money elsewhere and get a 1st round draft pick.
27IsNext
11-30-05, 12:44 PM
No. We need the draft picks. Gordon should sign elsewhere.
Gordon UpI knew it would be something like that...
YankeeStripes
11-30-05, 12:47 PM
Sturtze (sinkers)
Farnsworth (HEAT)
Gordon (Curves)
Rivera (Cutters)
Myers (Sub-lefty)
Small (changeups)
Wright (finesse)
I like how our potental bullpen has a wide variety of looks, as opposed to the people who left:
Leiter (meat)
Embree (meat)
Proctor (fast meat)
Kulish29
11-30-05, 12:50 PM
If the sign him for more than 2 years it's lunacy.
NelsonMuntz
11-30-05, 12:58 PM
As long as it's just for two years then I like it.
Rivera
Gordon
Farnsworth
Sturtze
Small
Myers
That's a lot better than what we had last year.
As long as it's just for two years then I like it.
Rivera
Gordon
Farnsworth
Sturtze
Small
Myers
That's a lot better than what we had last year.
It may be the best bullpen since 1998....or its equal. :)
effdamets
11-30-05, 01:04 PM
It may be the best bullpen since 1998....or its equal. :)
Where does Wright fit in? Or does this projection figure on him being traded?
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 01:07 PM
I have no interest in keeping Aaron Small on this team.
Where does Wright fit in? Or does this projection figure on him being traded?
Maybe. Or Carl :(
HughesIsNasty
11-30-05, 01:13 PM
I have no interest in keeping Aaron Small on this team.
Why is that?
BennyTheJetRodriguez
11-30-05, 01:17 PM
I'd rather Chris Hammond than Mike Myers. Atleast he can get out righties consistantly. Ofcourse i'm not going to hold my breath because Torre didn't use Hammond right when he was here and he won't come back after getting booed and not used when he really wasn't pitching bad at all. It seems in baseball the more you get destroyed by right handed hitters the more overrated you are against left handed hitters. I know lefties hit .150 something off him last year, but on average the last 3 years or so he's about as good as Stanton was for us last year...just look at the BAA, OBPA, and SLGA of Stanton 05 and Myers 20-04, they are basically Identical. I much sooner go with Matt Smith to start the year than Give Boston our draft pick and pay 2-4 million for a guy who really isn't all that special at all.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 01:18 PM
Why is that?
Because he's a lousy pitcher, and his trade value is probably much, much higher than his actual value.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
11-30-05, 01:22 PM
Because he's a lousy pitcher, and his trade value is probably much, much higher than his actual value.
Stuff wise and career wise I totally see why you think that. Its hard to believe he suddenly figured something out this year. Its more likely he cought lightning in a bottle. At his price I wouldn't mind keeping him, he was hitting spots like crazy and his sinker looked pretty sharp, but if we could spin him for more than he's worth I'd go for that too.
BeantownYankee
11-30-05, 02:00 PM
Because he's a lousy pitcher, and his trade value is probably much, much higher than his actual value.
That's an idiotic statement. You can say he had a career year, and I agree his value is much higher now and may not get that high again, but he was a big contributor last year.
highheat2014
11-30-05, 02:06 PM
That's an idiotic statement. You can say he had a career year, and I agree his value is much higher now and may not get that high again, but he was a big contributor last year.
Ok, but baseball is a business, and if Small's trade value is superior to his actual value, then he should be traded, even if he was a big contributor to the Yankees last year.
BigBats
11-30-05, 02:09 PM
i dunno. that 7.79 career post season ERA makes me wish he'd sign in boston.
I agree...we need some postseason performers!
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 02:11 PM
That's an idiotic statement. You can say he had a career year, and I agree his value is much higher now and may not get that high again, but he was a big contributor last year.
He contributed last year, but he's never been good. In what way is it idiotic to say that we should trade a career minor leaguer who has grossly inflated his value at this point?
AMYanks
11-30-05, 02:12 PM
Farnsworth + 2 draft picks > Farnsworth + Gordon
Go to Philly, Tom. Please.
Chambliss
11-30-05, 02:15 PM
Farnsworth + 2 draft picks > Farnsworth + Gordon
Go to Philly, Tom. Please.
I gotta agree with that. There's talk that Gordon wants a 3 year deal. That way too much for a guy in his late 30s who has experienced some shoulder pain over the last year.
surge511
11-30-05, 02:32 PM
Farnsworth + 2 draft picks > Farnsworth + Gordon
Go to Philly, Tom. Please.
Why? I would take a reliever with a 2.50 ERA every time over 2 draft picks. Draft picks around here are way overhyped. How many round-1 picks have made our roster in the past 20 years? They are nice to have, but you certainly don't base your offseason around them.
Why? I would take a reliever with a 2.50 ERA every time over 2 draft picks. Draft picks around here are way overhyped. How many round-1 picks have made our roster in the past 20 years? They are nice to have, but you certainly don't base your offseason around them.
:clap:
AMYanks
11-30-05, 02:48 PM
Why? I would take a reliever with a 2.50 ERA every time over 2 draft picks. Draft picks around here are way overhyped. How many round-1 picks have made our roster in the past 20 years? They are nice to have, but you certainly don't base your offseason around them.
Do the same people run the draft now, that ran it all those years? I didn't think so.
With better people working in the minor league scouting department, I'll take two draft picks over a 38 year old reliever who showed strong decline last season, and will likely want 3 years. Especially now that we have Farnsworth.
whalers
11-30-05, 02:48 PM
Why? I would take a reliever with a 2.50 ERA every time over 2 draft picks. Draft picks around here are way overhyped. How many round-1 picks have made our roster in the past 20 years? They are nice to have, but you certainly don't base your offseason around them.
I am with you. There a lot of people here who complain that Gordon is not a postseason pitcher and I understand that but my question to all the Gordon haters in the house who would you rather have? For all of Gordon's postseason faults he has been a very good setup guy the past two seasons.
Edit: I'd only take him for 2 yrs.
PittsburghYankeeFan
11-30-05, 03:01 PM
Because he's a lousy pitcher, and his trade value is probably much, much higher than his actual value.
Here we go again...10-0.10-0.10-0. In the middle of a pennant race. For the Yankees. That has to mean a decent look for the following year, especially if you cost less than nothing. Sure he may then suck--but you never know, do you?
Note: Mussina $19 million, and had how many wins last year?
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 03:07 PM
Here we go again...10-0.10-0.10-0. In the middle of a pennant race. For the Yankees. That has to mean a decent look for the following year, especially if you cost less than nothing. Sure he may then suck--but you never know, do you?
Note: Mussina $19 million, and had how many wins last year?
His record was more a product of his run support than his actual pitching. And it does cost something. If we try him out next year, and he sucks, then we lose the opportunity to trade him for something of potential value. He we have this stock, that is very likely to see its value decline as soon as the season starts. I want to trade him now, while his value is high.
What does Mussina's contract have to do with the fact that Small is a crappy journeyman minor leaguer who pitched way better than his peripherals, and had a gaudy record due to his fantastic run support.
nyctalopia
11-30-05, 03:07 PM
I don't buy the "he's always sucked" argument against Small. Yeah he was 31 last year when he finally broke out, but maybe he actually learned something different about pitching. He doesn't have a trick delivery nor does he have amazing movement on his pitches. He won last year by being SMART on the mound, messing with hitters' rhythms with his changeup and hitting his spots with the fastball. Those are not skills that will diminish with batter familiarity. He won't be an ace, but I expect him to be a serviceable long-relief man and spot starter for cheap.
BeantownYankee
11-30-05, 03:08 PM
He contributed last year, but he's never been good. In what way is it idiotic to say that we should trade a career minor leaguer who has grossly inflated his value at this point?If you said it that way that's one thing, to just say he's a lousy pitcher is just wrong. The pitchers we got from San Diego were lousy pitchers, Heredia was a lousy pitcher, f-rod was a lousy pitcher. Small in my opinion is a usefull pitcher.
NelsonMuntz
11-30-05, 03:09 PM
Here we go again...10-0.10-0.10-0. In the middle of a pennant race. For the Yankees. That has to mean a decent look for the following year, especially if you cost less than nothing. Sure he may then suck--but you never know, do you?
Run support. Run Support. Run Support.
Wins and losses are essentially a meaningless stat for pitchers. I'd dump Small in a heartbeat if we could actually find a GM stupid enough to trade for a career journeyman pitcher with one good year under his belt, which is why I'm still holding out hope that Small will help us land Brad Wilkerson.
27IsNext
11-30-05, 03:09 PM
Hah. We complain about how our team needs to get younger and have more homegrown players, yet turn around and say draft picks our overrated? Typical.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 03:10 PM
If you said it that way that's one thing, to just say he's a lousy pitcher is just wrong. The pitchers we got from San Diego were lousy pitchers, Heredia was a lousy pitcher, f-rod was a lousy pitcher. Small in my opinion is a usefull pitcher.
F-Rod has a much better track record than Small. Small looked very bad in a few outings, but the offense slugged him out of trouble. If we can get something of value for Small this offseason, and we don't do it, we'll regret it.
His record was more a product of his run support than his actual pitching. And it does cost something. If we try him out next year, and he sucks, then we lose the opportunity to trade him for something of potential value. He we have this stock, that is very likely to see its value decline as soon as the season starts. I want to trade him now, while his value is high.
What does Mussina's contract have to do with the fact that Small is a crappy journeyman minor leaguer who pitched way better than his peripherals, and had a gaudy record due to his fantastic run support.Not that I want to get into this again with you, but he did have a few games where he gave up only a run or two.
nyctalopia
11-30-05, 03:12 PM
Run support. Run Support. Run Support.
Wins and losses are essentially a meaningless stat for pitchers. I'd dump Small in a heartbeat if we could actually find a GM stupid enough to trade for him, which is why I'm still holding out hope that Small will help us land Brad Wilkerson.
It wasn't just run-support! He came in everytime and threw strikes, quality strikes for that matter. Again, no one expects him to be the next coming, but I would take him any day over Sturtze or Proctor out of the bullpen, and at this point over Wright as a starter.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 03:14 PM
Not that I want to get into this again with you, but he did have a few games where he gave up only a run or two.
Sample size. He's not a good pitcher. His luck was running out at the end of the year, and he's going to regress back to his career performance next year. This is like James Baldwin all over again.
NelsonMuntz
11-30-05, 03:25 PM
It wasn't just run-support! He came in everytime and threw strikes, quality strikes for that matter. Again, no one expects him to be the next coming, but I would take him any day over Sturtze or Proctor out of the bullpen, and at this point over Wright as a starter.
I realize that not every one of his wins was due to run support, but wins and losses are a team stat. You will never convince me of a pitcher's worth based solely on wins.
AMYanks
11-30-05, 03:25 PM
Hah. We complain about how our team needs to get younger and have more homegrown players, yet turn around and say draft picks our overrated? Typical.
Typical, and sad.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-30-05, 03:35 PM
Hah. We complain about how our team needs to get younger and have more homegrown players, yet turn around and say draft picks our overrated? Typical.
Draft picks aren't overated. Letting our top setup man leave in order to draft a player that might be good is stupid.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
11-30-05, 03:36 PM
Hah. We complain about how our team needs to get younger and have more homegrown players, yet turn around and say draft picks our overrated? Typical.
Most of these pics aren't going to play for us. They are valuable as trade bait. Also its not like we're losing the pick for Gordon, we're losing it for Farnsworth, we just aren't getting a pick for Gordon. I don't know about you guys, but i'd gladly trade one draft pick for a middle reliever like Gordon post season or no post season. Otherwise who pitches the 7th? Sturtze? Yikes. I'm pretty sure we'll still get a first round pick.
Draft picks aren't overated. Letting our top setup man leave in order to draft a player that might be good is stupid.
Exactly.
I'm not saying give him a 5 year contract, but he's proven to be pretty darn good. In a pressure position. In New York.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 03:39 PM
Most of these pics aren't going to play for us. They are valuable as trade bait. Also its not like we're losing the pick for Gordon, we're losing it for Farnsworth, we just aren't getting a pick for Gordon. I don't know about you guys, but i'd gladly trade one draft pick for a middle reliever like Gordon post season or no post season. Otherwise who pitches the 7th? Sturtze? Yikes. I'm pretty sure we'll still get a first round pick.
If Gordon walks, we get TWO first rounds picks, even if we sign Farnsworth. If we sign Farnsworth, and Gordon doesn't leave, we get zero.
The reason I'm willing to do this is because I think Gordon is declining, and, at 39, I don't expect him to be all that good next year.
Yankeeah
11-30-05, 03:39 PM
Most of these pics aren't going to play for us. They are valuable as trade bait. Also its not like we're losing the pick for Gordon, we're losing it for Farnsworth, we just aren't getting a pick for Gordon. I don't know about you guys, but i'd gladly trade one draft pick for a middle reliever like Gordon post season or no post season. Otherwise who pitches the 7th? Sturtze? Yikes. I'm pretty sure we'll still get a first round pick.
You can't trade draft picks in baseball.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 03:39 PM
You can't trade draft picks in baseball.
He meant the players we take with those picks.
You can't trade draft picks in baseball.
Once they get here. ;)
RhodeyYankee2638
11-30-05, 03:41 PM
Exactly.
I'm not saying give him a 5 year contract, but he's proven to be pretty darn good. In a pressure position. In New York.
Its really a gamble if you were to INTENTIONALLY let Gordon walk. If the Farnsworth thing falls through, we would have a bullpen which would consist of Small, Sturtze, Proctor and Meyers. Thats not what I would call good
effdamets
11-30-05, 03:47 PM
His record was more a product of his run support than his actual pitching. And it does cost something. If we try him out next year, and he sucks, then we lose the opportunity to trade him for something of potential value. He we have this stock, that is very likely to see its value decline as soon as the season starts. I want to trade him now, while his value is high.
What does Mussina's contract have to do with the fact that Small is a crappy journeyman minor leaguer who pitched way better than his peripherals, and had a gaudy record due to his fantastic run support.
I absolutely agree with ILW on this one... Trade this guy now, while you can get some semblance of a player for him.
Really, there has to be a reason that this guy bounced around the minor leagues for so long. Could he have captured lightning in a bottle? Sure. Is it likely he did that? No.
I think the only reason why they haven't announced Farnsworth already is because they think they can get Gordon and announce both.
I agree, I'll mist the first and the sandwich pick for TG, but the Yanks can put the money for those picks into their overseason budget and target kids with signability issues with whatever picks they have. They were more willing to do that last year...
Trading Small is an obvious move, and Pavano should be available for the right, young package...
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 03:49 PM
I think the only reason why they haven't announced Farnsworth already is because they think they can get Gordon and announce both.
I agree, I'll mist the first and the sandwich pick for TG, but the Yanks can put the money for those picks into their overseason budget and target kids with signability issues with whatever picks they have. They were more willing to do that last year...
Thats a good point. Getting Jackson in the 8th round was like having an extra 1st rounder.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
11-30-05, 03:53 PM
You can't trade draft picks in baseball.
I know, I meant once the players are drafter. I like the Idea of having two first round picks, but think about it. Right now, if trading picks were alowed in baseball, would you trade one for a Gordon type set up man? ILW thats a good point about Austin Jackson and helps out my argument. Last year our first pick was CJ Henrty, but we still got Cox, Jackson, Tabata(i think) and a bunch of others after that.
I know, I meant once the players are drafter. I like the Idea of having two first round picks, but think about it. Right now, if trading picks were alowed in baseball, would you trade one for a Gordon type set up man? ILW thats a good point about Austin Jackson and helps out my argument. Last year our first pick was CJ Henrty, but we still got Cox, Jackson, Tabata(i think) and a bunch of others after that.
Tabata was a FA and signed from Venezuela. Jackson was also an 8th round pick. So having extra early picks wouldn't have mattered with getting him.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 03:55 PM
I know, I meant once the players are drafter. I like the Idea of having two first round picks, but think about it. Right now, if trading picks were alowed in baseball, would you trade one for a Gordon type set up man? ILW thats a good point about Austin Jackson and helps out my argument. Last year our first pick was CJ Henrty, but we still got Cox, Jackson, Tabata(i think) and a bunch of others after that.
Tabata was an international signing. Not that that in any way contradicts your argument, or Buzah's.
Tabata was an overseas signing and wasn't drafted. You can't trade draft picks for one year after you get them.
Thats a good point. Getting Jackson in the 8th round was like having an extra 1st rounder.
Signing Tabata for 500K was like getting an extra hall of famer ;)
BennyTheJetRodriguez
11-30-05, 04:00 PM
Thanks for the info on Tabata....now that I think about it I should have known that out since he wasn't old enough to graduate high school last year :eek: I was just naming a bunch of new aquisitions that are now good trade bait.
I know you have to keep your picks the year they are drafted, i meant hypothetically if you could trade a future pick I think most of us would for a setup man like Gordon.
BennyTheJetRodriguez
11-30-05, 04:01 PM
on edit I didn't mean that I thought Cox, Jackson, or Tabata should be shopped, my point was none were a first round pick.
The benefit to getting Gordon back is to "scotchguard" Farnsworth. If Farnworth remains the player he's been since he added the split, you can trade Gordon instead of trading the farm at the deadline.
The benefit to getting Gordon back is to "scotchguard" Farnsworth. If Farnworth remains the player he's been since he added the split, you can trade Gordon instead of trading the farm at the deadline.
Great point. :)
WebsterMulligan
11-30-05, 04:05 PM
Exactly.
I'm not saying give him a 5 year contract, but he's proven to be pretty darn good. In a pressure position. In New York.
He has a terrible post season record.
I like Gordon, but at his age, I would'nt offer him anything longer than two years.
He has a terrible post season record.
I like Gordon, but at his age, I would'nt offer him anything longer than two years.
Since 2001, who hasn't. :( ;)
AMYanks
11-30-05, 04:09 PM
The benefit to getting Gordon back is to "scotchguard" Farnsworth. If Farnworth remains the player he's been since he added the split, you can trade Gordon instead of trading the farm at the deadline.
I doubt anyone would want Gordon for that price. We would likely have to take on a lot of the salary, at which point, it's not worth it.
WebsterMulligan
11-30-05, 04:13 PM
Since 2001, who hasn't. :( ;)
Good point. :) It would certainly help if the starters could go deeper into the game (with regularity), as well as adding a few more reliable arms to the pen.
That would likely reduce the wear and tear on Gordon, keeping him effective throughout the playoffs.
32elston
11-30-05, 04:22 PM
Why? I would take a reliever with a 2.50 ERA every time over 2 draft picks. Draft picks around here are way overhyped. How many round-1 picks have made our roster in the past 20 years? They are nice to have, but you certainly don't base your offseason around them.
Agreed, draft picks don't mean squat in baseball, because it is way harder to predict how someone will play without the aluminum and how they will field with the extra decks. In the NFL and NBA, the physical comparisons with other players and 40 times, vertical leap and such make it easier to predict a player's future and even that is not precise. In MLB, you simply can't do that until they have put in their minor league time for the most part. Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions just not many.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-30-05, 04:32 PM
Agreed, draft picks don't mean squat in baseball, because it is way harder to predict how someone will play without the aluminum and how they will field with the extra decks. In the NFL and NBA, the physical comparisons with other players and 40 times, vertical leap and such make it easier to predict a player's future and even that is not precise. In MLB, you simply can't do that until they have put in their minor league time for the most part. Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions just not many.
Very good post
I doubt anyone would want Gordon for that price. We would likely have to take on a lot of the salary, at which point, it's not worth it.
I disagree, if he has a normal Gordon season, he'd have a lot of value to a good team that needs a closer.
The Dynasty
11-30-05, 04:48 PM
The benefit to getting Gordon back is to "scotchguard" Farnsworth. If Farnworth remains the player he's been since he added the split, you can trade Gordon instead of trading the farm at the deadline.
Wait Farnsy has a splitter? In addition to a developing hard slider and that fastball?
:drool:
AMYanks
11-30-05, 04:52 PM
I disagree, if he has a normal Gordon season, he'd have a lot of value to a good team that needs a closer.
Considering his decline last season, it's not likely he will be great.
And if he is good enough, the Yankees won't trade him.
Considering his decline last season, it's not likely he will be great.
And if he is good enough, the Yankees won't trade him.he should have declined more after his overuse in `04, that he didn't and was shut down at times tells me he'll probably bounce back a bit this year. Usually guys who've pitched like and as much as Gordon did in `04 have dreadful era's the next year, even with his "decline" he posted a good number, and is likely to bounce back this season.
You don't have to trade him if he's good, but you do have that flexibility which is nice and might save a prospect or two at some point.
Wait Farnsy has a splitter? In addition to a developing hard slider and that fastball?
:drool:
His career took off when he unleashed the splitter this year.
The Dynasty
11-30-05, 05:01 PM
His career took off when he unleashed the splitter this year.
Thanks for the info, Buzah.
I don't mind picking up Farnsy. I do mind re-signing Gordon though. As much as he's clutch during the season, his post-season performance is just sickening...sickening.
I'd rather take my chances on Tavarez and sign Dotel to a Lieber-like deal.
Thanks for the info, Buzah.
I don't mind picking up Farnsy. I do mind re-signing Gordon though. As much as he's clutch during the season, his post-season performance is just sickening...sickening.
I'd rather take my chances on Tavarez and sign Dotel to a Lieber-like deal.
Pitch him 200 innings in the RS, and "rest" him in the PS. ;)
The Dynasty
11-30-05, 05:07 PM
Pitch him 200 innings in the RS, and "rest" him in the PS. ;)
Touche.
Honestly, I think we've worn out Gordon's arm and his post-season performance is forgettable.
I'll take my chances with someone else.
If it's not Gordon, it will be Tavarez, they're going for two.
The Dynasty
11-30-05, 05:11 PM
If it's not Gordon, it will be Tavarez, they're going for two.
I'll take my chances with Tavarez.
Touche.
Honestly, I think we've worn out Gordon's arm and his post-season performance is forgettable.
I'll take my chances with someone else.
Tavarez is a nut case, though...or at least he was when he was with the Giants...
WebsterMulligan
11-30-05, 05:14 PM
I'll take my chances with Tavarez.
As long he avoids his emotional outbursts and the occasional meltdowns on the mound, he might be a reliable setup man.
I think I would pass on this guy.
sugmasterflex
11-30-05, 08:50 PM
Farnsworth + 2 draft picks > Farnsworth + Gordon
Go to Philly, Tom. Please.
Agreed.
MattUNC2003
11-30-05, 10:04 PM
OK, I have a question regarding arbitration.
Say that Flash signs with the Phillies before the Yanks offer him arb (we wouldn't get any picks because we hadn't yet offered arb). Is it possible to still offer him arb after he signs even though he is signed with another team JUST to get the draft picks?
Hope that question is worded clearly.
StatenIslandYankee
11-30-05, 10:05 PM
Anyone think Tom will come back to a 2 year deal or will that 3rd year be the sticking point?
longtimeyankeefan
11-30-05, 10:07 PM
OK, I have a question regarding arbitration.
Say that Flash signs with the Phillies before the Yanks offer him arb (we wouldn't get any picks because we hadn't yet offered arb). Is it possible to still offer him arb after he signs even though he is signed with another team JUST to get the draft picks?
Hope that question is worded clearly.
Any FA signed before the arbitration offer date will automatically be offered arbitration by their former team for a simple reason - the player can no longer accept arbitration if under contract to another team and the former team will only benefit by getting the draft picks.
So, the answer to your question is YES - teams can, and will, offer arbitration to players who have already signed.
MattUNC2003
11-30-05, 10:08 PM
Any FA signed before the arbitration offer date will automatically be offered arbitration by their former team for a simple reason - the player can no longer accept arbitration if under contract to another team and the former team will only benefit by getting the draft picks.
So, the answer to your question is YES - teams can, and will, offer arbitration to players who have already signed.
Gracias amigo.
bostonyankeefan
11-30-05, 10:30 PM
I would take Gordon back for a two year deal. He keeps in top condition, and when he is on he is very tough.
As for Small, if we could get value for him now, I would trade him, but he was more than simply lucky last year. He pitched with poise, threw strikes and kept hitters off balance. Small could be an asset out of the pen or as a 4th or 5th starter.
27IsNext
11-30-05, 10:39 PM
People, he's in his late 30s. We're better off getting the draft picks.
Yankee Clipper
11-30-05, 11:06 PM
People, he's in his late 30s. We're better off getting the draft picks.
But why? He's done well with us these two years and so what if he's choked in the postseason. Farnsworth didn't perform in his two postseason years, actually he got hit hard. So if we go into next year with just Farnsworth, we're getting a guy who hasn't performed in the postseason, a guy who's never played for the Yanks, have been inconsistent his whole career and now is supposed to set up for Mo. Sorry but no thanks on that. Gordon has at least proved he can go through the entire season very well, so resign him and if we sign Farnsworth, the pressure is off him to perform.
27IsNext
12-01-05, 12:15 AM
But why? He's done well with us these two years and so what if he's choked in the postseason. Farnsworth didn't perform in his two postseason years, actually he got hit hard. So if we go into next year with just Farnsworth, we're getting a guy who hasn't performed in the postseason, a guy who's never played for the Yanks, have been inconsistent his whole career and now is supposed to set up for Mo. Sorry but no thanks on that. Gordon has at least proved he can go through the entire season very well, so resign him and if we sign Farnsworth, the pressure is off him to perform.
I'd like to sign Tavarez as well as Farnsworth, to have two set-up men to ease the pressure, and hope that Torre won't overwork them. Gordon is just too old. Matsui55 has pointed out before how he shakes his arm in between pitches. I don't want to take the chance--and two first-round picks are just too tempting coupled with that.
Yankee Clipper
12-01-05, 12:22 AM
I'd like to sign Tavarez as well as Farnsworth, to have two set-up men to ease the pressure, and hope that Torre won't overwork them. Gordon is just too old. Matsui55 has pointed out before how he shakes his arm in between pitches. I don't want to take the chance--and two first-round picks are just too tempting coupled with that.
Alot of pitchers have weird quirks, so shaking his arm doesn't mean anything.
yankees76
12-01-05, 01:05 AM
Yankees are apparently concerned that the contract they are giving Farnsworth will pump up Gordon's value and push them out of the market for him.
"The Yankees intensified their negotiations with Farnsworth and Tom Gordon on Monday, picturing both righthanders setting up for Mariano Rivera. But team officials yesterday were resigned to the fact that Farns.worth's lucrative deal will only help Gordon's market value, most likely eliminating them from contention."
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1201,0,931621.story?coll=ny-yankees-bigpix
JeffWeaverFan
12-01-05, 01:36 AM
Alot of pitchers have weird quirks, so shaking his arm doesn't mean anything.
No. He started shaking his arm when he was experiencing a dead arm. It's not a normal thing for him. In fact, I remember he started shaking it when he was out during yet another blowout game, and they took him right out and he missed the next week (it was right before the AS break).
He's getting old and with the amount of innings Torre put him in, he's on the major decline.
yankees76
12-01-05, 01:59 AM
I think Gordon will be fine in a reduced role, if Joe can be convinced to use him that way. Unfortunately, it will take too many blown leads next year before Joe realizes he needs to use Flash in the 6th and 7th and Farnsworth in the 8th. Joe is a player's manager and sometimes has too much respect for what guys have done, not what they can now do.
DiMaggio5CF
12-01-05, 02:20 AM
I don't want to take the chance--and two first-round picks are just too tempting coupled with that.
How would we get two first-round picks?
We lost ours by signing Farnsy, and we only get one from losing Gordon.
Are you counting the supplemental round as a first rounder?
ring403
12-01-05, 06:46 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/370508p-315164c.html
The Yankees have also talked with Tom Gordon's agent and would like to bring back the righthanded setup man. The Phillies have stepped up their pursuit, and one source said yesterday that he believes Gordon may be able to get his best package - in terms of money and a marquee role - in Philadelphia, where he could replace Billy Wagner as closer. The Red Sox also have interest in Gordon and offer a unique situation in that Keith Foulke is their closer, but he is injury-prone (and was ineffective last year), so Gordon would be in position to step into that role if necessary.
ring403
12-01-05, 06:57 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58700.htm
Yesterday, Gordon's agent, Rick Thurman, said, "Something will happen within the next 48 to 72 hours" regarding his client. "That's all I can say at this point right now."
Asked about the possibility of Gordon returning to the Yankees to continue as Rivera's set-up man, Thurman said, "I had a conversation with [Brian] Cashman earlier this week."
Gordon has drawn strong interest from the Phillies and Indians to close games, and the Yankees would like him back in a set-up role. Gordon initially was looking for a three-year deal, something the Yankees won't give him, and something the Phillies and Indians had reservations about because he is 38 years old.
If the best Gordon can do is two years, he is expected to return to the Yankees for a little more than $5 million a year.
"We need to solve our set-up role and we would like Tom Gordon back," Joe Torre told The Post yesterday.
As for Thurman's comments, Cashman said, "I don't have a reaction to that, but like I have said about free agents and trades, if it makes sense we are willing to move quickly."
goin for 27
12-01-05, 08:12 AM
I really hope that the Yanks move on Gordon. Without him, the Farnsworth acquisition is a wash.
Take a peek at Gordon's / Farnsworth's ERA+ for his two years here....
2005 - 173
2004 - 204
2003 - 143
Farnsworth
2005 - 198
2004 - 96
2003 - 129
Though I worry a bit about Gordon's aging, I worry about that for most of our players. We are an old team.
That said, Farnsworth can be key in reducing the number of innings that Gordon would be required to pitch, keeping him fresher, and likely very effective.
When both of these guys are on, I would still rather Gordon on the hill.
Both make a formidable back end of the bullpen. Farnsworth alone really accomplishes nothing.
I really hope that the Yanks move on Gordon. Without him, the Farnsworth acquisition is a wash.
Take a peek at Gordon's / Farnsworth's ERA+ for his two years here....
2005 - 173
2004 - 204
2003 - 143
Farnsworth
2005 - 198
2004 - 96
2003 - 129
Though I worry a bit about Gordon's aging, I worry about that for most of our players. We are an old team.
That said, Farnsworth can be key in reducing the number of innings that Gordon would be required to pitch, keeping him fresher, and likely very effective.
When both of these guys are on, I would still rather Gordon on the hill.
Both make a formidable back end of the bullpen. Farnsworth alone really accomplishes nothing.There's no denying that he would be a valuable part of the bullpen, but I am hesitant about handing him a three-year deal.
nycdoc999
12-01-05, 08:35 AM
Offer Gordon 2y/10-11M with an option that vests for a 3rd year based on appearances and innings pitched. That way, if he stays healthy and does his job, he gets his three years. If not, he gets a nominal buy-out and we get protection.
We need Gordon at the back of the pen - Tavarez just ain't gettin it done. He's had TWO good seasons in his CAREER, is not young, does not throw particularly hard, and pitches in the national league. He's not the answer.
A pen of:
Small
M. Smith
Sturtze
Farnsworth
Gordon
Rivera
is not bad. We're asking alot of Smith to be able to reliably get hitters like Ortiz out in big situations, but at some point you've got to see if the kid can go out and do it.
whalers
12-01-05, 09:30 AM
"With free agent Billy Wagner leaving for the New York Mets this week, the Phillies are expected to take a stab at prying Cuban right-hander Danys Baez from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Meantime, the Phils remain very interested in signing free agent reliever Tom Gordon, preferably as a setup man to Baez or as a backup plan to close games."
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/102-12012005-577815.html
If this is in fact true I think the Yankees might still have a shot at bringing back Gordon. The question is would Flash want to setup in philly for 3yrs or NY for 2.
27IsNext
12-01-05, 01:51 PM
How would we get two first-round picks?
We lost ours by signing Farnsy, and we only get one from losing Gordon.
Are you counting the supplemental round as a first rounder?
We lose it by getting Farns, but we gain a first-round pick and a supplemental pick when another team signs Gordon.
27IsNext
12-01-05, 01:51 PM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58700.htm
Let him go, Cash. Go after Julian Tavarez.
YankClipper5
12-01-05, 01:58 PM
I don't know, I think it would be huge if we could resign Gordon, and with the inside track being his friendship with Mo, I think all offers equal he would re-sign here. I like Farnsworth but I think we need at least 3 quality arms and then maybe Sturtze can eat innings or something. If we sign Gordon and Tavarez I would be ecstatic but may be wishful thinking.
Let him go, Cash. Go after Julian Tavarez.
I'd rather keep Gordon if Tavarez is the next move. Tavarez is also a Type A FA, so we'd lose another pick for signing him. Plus, Gordon is dependable during the regular season. I know he hasn't done a great job in the postseason, but he's been an integral part of even getting the team there over the past two seasons. With Farnsworth beside him, hopefully Flash wouldn't be overworked and he'd stay healthy and effective for the next two years.
ryanthe13th
12-01-05, 02:14 PM
Farnsworth, Tavarez, and Sturtze would definitely be able to solve any brawl problems we had.
DandyAndy46
12-01-05, 02:20 PM
Farnsworth, Tavarez, and Sturtze would definitely be able to solve any brawl problems we had.
And definitely keep all the bullpen phones in line as well...
BostonYankeeBoy
12-01-05, 02:38 PM
I'd love to re-sign Gordon, that would set up not just a decent bullpen but one of the best in the AL. Gordon and Farnsworth both for the most part have an era under or around 2 over the last 3 years. Plug in Sturtze, Small, and maybe Wright in there along with any other off season bullpen signing and the Yanks have a very solid bullpen to get the game to Rivera.
ryanthe13th
12-01-05, 02:42 PM
Wright should definitely be a long reliever. Interesting enough, on the Yankee depth chart he is ranked as a #6 starter. The chart reads:
#1 - Johnson
#2 - Mussina
#3 - Wang
#4 - Chacon
#5 - Pavano
#6 - Wright
Looks like Cashman wants Jaret in the pen. And this wouldn't be the first tour of the bullpen that Wright has under his belt.
Wright should definitely be a long reliever. Interesting enough, on the Yankee depth chart he is ranked as a #6 starter. The chart reads:
#1 - Johnson
#2 - Mussina
#3 - Wang
#4 - Chacon
#5 - Pavano
#6 - Wright
Looks like Cashman wants Jaret in the pen. And this wouldn't be the first tour of the bullpen that Wright has under his belt.
I agree with this... Wright is not better than any of those guys in the rotation and might be ok in the pen. The only concern, as always with him, is his health and being able to convert to the different role and stay healthy doing it. But, it is something we need to look at unless we deal Pavano for our CF next week.
Clemens831
12-01-05, 02:55 PM
I'd love to re-sign Gordon, that would set up not just a decent bullpen but one of the best in the AL. Gordon and Farnsworth both for the most part have an era under or around 2 over the last 3 years. Plug in Sturtze, Small, and maybe Wright in there along with any other off season bullpen signing and the Yanks have a very solid bullpen to get the game to Rivera.
While I think the bullpen would be formidable with Gordon and Farnsworth, I think the idea that it'd be one of the "best in the AL" is really a stretch. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 teams (ChiSox, Minnesota, Anaheim, Toronto, even Kansas City when you look at some of their young arms) that'd have a bullpen better than or equal to the Yanks'.
YankClipper5
12-01-05, 03:33 PM
While I think the bullpen would be formidable with Gordon and Farnsworth, I think the idea that it'd be one of the "best in the AL" is really a stretch. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 teams (ChiSox, Minnesota, Anaheim, Toronto, even Kansas City when you look at some of their young arms) that'd have a bullpen better than or equal to the Yanks'.
I think if Sturtze plays to his early last season form we will be in good shape. If we can get Tavarez in the mix, although I am still up in the air on him, it should make it an outstanding bullpen because our relievers won't be overworked to the tune of the last 2 seasons.
I would certainly like to see two quality lefties in the pen. I know the reports have the Yankees close to agreeing to something with Myers, but I hope they don't stop there.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 03:53 PM
While I think the bullpen would be formidable with Gordon and Farnsworth, I think the idea that it'd be one of the "best in the AL" is really a stretch. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 teams (ChiSox, Minnesota, Anaheim, Toronto, even Kansas City when you look at some of their young arms) that'd have a bullpen better than or equal to the Yanks'.
I agree. Several other teams would still have better pens. However, Gordon/Farnsworth/Rivera is an excellent back end, and with the rest makes a solid pen, which was lacking last year.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 03:54 PM
OK, I have a question regarding arbitration.
Say that Flash signs with the Phillies before the Yanks offer him arb (we wouldn't get any picks because we hadn't yet offered arb). Is it possible to still offer him arb after he signs even though he is signed with another team JUST to get the draft picks?
Hope that question is worded clearly.
No.
I like the way you think though. ;)
YankClipper5
12-01-05, 03:55 PM
I would certainly like to see two quality lefties in the pen. I know the reports have the Yankees close to agreeing to something with Myers, but I hope they don't stop there.
Good point, maybe if Myers signs we can test out Henn in that role over a few minor league games with intention of promoting him... I know a lot has been mentioned of putting him in that role, perhaps as an understudy it would be ideal for him.
YankClipper5
12-01-05, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattUNC2003
OK, I have a question regarding arbitration.
Say that Flash signs with the Phillies before the Yanks offer him arb (we wouldn't get any picks because we hadn't yet offered arb). Is it possible to still offer him arb after he signs even though he is signed with another team JUST to get the draft picks?
Hope that question is worded clearly.
No.
I like the way you think though.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the date to offer arb is 12/7, doesn't signing before that constitute a guaranteed pick, whether or not he was offered at that point, hence the reason many teams wait until 12/7 even though having agreed in principle with the free agent.
AMYanks
12-01-05, 04:25 PM
No.
I like the way you think though. ;)
Yes, they can. As long as it is before the deadline.
Matsui55
12-01-05, 08:32 PM
No.
I like the way you think though. ;)
Wrong answer. THEY CAN.
TheScooter
12-01-05, 08:55 PM
Jayson Stark is reporting the following on the ESPN Insider MLB rumor section
Phillies having hot Flash?
Dec 1 - Tom Gordon met personally with Phillies GM Pat Gillick on Thursday, ESPN.com's Jayson Stark reports.
Neither Gordon's agents, the Beverly Hill Sports Council, nor Phillies officials would confirm the meeting. However, an official of another team pursuing free-agent closers said he was told the Phillies are moving closer to signing Gordon
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors?CMP=ILC-INHEAD&univLogin02=stateChanged
AMYanks
12-01-05, 08:56 PM
Jayson Stark is reporting the following on the ESPN Insider MLB rumor section
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors?CMP=ILC-INHEAD&univLogin02=stateChanged
Good. Wish Tom well, grab the picks, and run.
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:04 PM
Free-agent right-hander Tom Gordon has signed a three-year contract to be the Phillies' closer, FOXSports.com has learned.
The value of the deal is believed to be between $18 million and $21 million. The Yankees made a late push for Gordon, increasing their offer from two to three years in their bid to retain him as Mariano Rivera's setup man. The Orioles, Tigers and Indians also were pursuing Gordon.
The Yankees also have been in negotiations with free-agent reliever Kyle Farnsworth, but have yet to close a deal. It is possible that Farnsworth is still considering an offer to return to the Braves. If the Yankees lose him, they will be scrambling to find a setup man
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5131914
Gordon is taking the physical on Saturday
jimmykey2
12-01-05, 10:07 PM
I hope all the Gordon haters will be happy when Torre is undecided between Sturtze and Ramiro Mendoza in a big game. Oh well, maybe the great Mike Myers can get the job done.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 10:08 PM
This sucks.
First, it makes the Farnsworth signing a wash. Farnsworth AND Gordon would have been great. Farnsworth, no Gordon? Meh.
The other reason it sucks is that Farnsworth can still sign elsewhere, (worst case scenario) or drag his heels for a couple of weeks, and drive his price through the roof.
I wish I did not see this before I have to go to sleep. :(
BombersBlvd
12-01-05, 10:08 PM
Crap. Oh well. It will hurt us this year, but that is too much money/time.
mickey mantle
12-01-05, 10:09 PM
gordon was solid but i didnt expect him to come back. good luck in philly flash.
Yankee Bulldawg
12-01-05, 10:16 PM
good luck Flash
Sweet, 2 draft picks. Thanks for two great regular seasons Flash :)
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:19 PM
Tom Gordon is gone :2thumbs: :cheer: :-bye-:
Hope he pukes on his cheese stakes
nycdoc999
12-01-05, 10:20 PM
The Gordon haters don't seem to realize we don't make the playoffs without Flash EITHER of the past 2 years....
It's like saying Arod is not valuable since he has not played well in the playoffs - there has been NO better set-up man in baseball over the past 2 years.
And that includes Scott Shields, Mike Timlin, Jessie Crain, and whomever else you wanna throw in there.
Big loss not to have him. They should have done 2y/12M with a 3rd year option based on IP for each of the first 2 years IN THE BEGINNING.
Not happy with the way Cashman handled this one at all.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 10:21 PM
Tom Gordon is gone :2thumbs: :cheer: :-bye-:
Hope he pukes on his cheese stakes
Sounds like he would. Is this like a tomato stake?
goin for 27
12-01-05, 10:22 PM
The Gordon haters don't seem to realize we don't make the playoffs without Flash EITHER of the past 2 years....
It's like saying Arod is not valuable since he has not played well in the playoffs - there has been NO better set-up man in baseball over the past 2 years.
And that includes Scott Shields, Mike Timlin, Jessie Crain, and whomever else you wanna throw in there.
Big loss not to have him. They should have done 2y/12M with a 3rd year option based on IP for each of the first 2 years IN THE BEGINNING.
Not happy with the way Cashman handled this one at all.
Don't disagree, but at least Cashman went for the third year. I think it really may have come down to Gordon wanting to close. It is what guys like him really want to do. Cashman simply could not make that happen of course.
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:23 PM
ESPNEWS is reporting Tom Gordon agrees to 3-yr deal w/PHI
scull567
12-01-05, 10:23 PM
Sounds like he would. Is this like a tomato stake?
:roflmao:
Kulish29
12-01-05, 10:24 PM
Good luck in Philly Tommy boy. Thanks for everything you did here.
On another note, the Phillies are nuts.
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:24 PM
The Gordon haters don't seem to realize we don't make the playoffs without Flash EITHER of the past 2 years....
It's like saying Arod is not valuable since he has not played well in the playoffs - there has been NO better set-up man in baseball over the past 2 years.
And that includes Scott Shields, Mike Timlin, Jessie Crain, and whomever else you wanna throw in there.
Big loss not to have him. They should have done 2y/12M with a 3rd year option based on IP for each of the first 2 years IN THE BEGINNING.
Not happy with the way Cashman handled this one at all.
Cashman handled this one beautifully
ryanm1058123
12-01-05, 10:25 PM
Thanks for the 2 years Tom Gordon. We couldn't have done it without ya. You've been a class act the whole time as well. The NYY bullpen won't be the same without you.
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:26 PM
Jayson Stark
The Phillies and free agent reliever Tom Gordon agreed to a three-year, $18-million contract Thursday night, according to a baseball official familiar with the negotiations.
The Yankees and another team, believed to be Texas, made a late run at signing Gordon. But when the Phillies offered to guarantee him a third year and allow him to go back to closing, that apparently sealed the deal.
Earlier in the day, according to a source, Gordon met personally with Phillies GM Pat Gillick, two days after he'd had lunch in Florida with manager Charlie Manuel
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2244420
swityak11
12-01-05, 10:29 PM
In the end, all relievers want the chance to close. And the money of course.
oh well. I guess it'll be Farnsworth and Taverez.
Steph19
12-01-05, 10:30 PM
Thanks, Flash. I always thought this guy was awesome and I always love the way he wears that cap. A well-spoken, classy, and most importantly, dominating player for the Yanks.
QuanGorMo has now been reduced to just the Mo again. Hopefully we can make it FarnsMo soon.
Losing two Flashes in one offseason... :(
BroadwayBomber55
12-01-05, 10:32 PM
Good luck in Philly, Tom Gordon aka Flash Gordo. A very, classy player. He handles himself well with the media in good times and bad. He pitched his heart when he was a Yankee, even though he was warn out, but he handled himself well.
NewEraYanks2527
12-01-05, 10:34 PM
Na Na Na Na Hey Hey Hey Goodbye. The Phillies is a good fit for Tom, weaker NL lineups and less chance of a playoff game to throw up in.
Zimmers' Helmet
12-01-05, 10:34 PM
Cashman handled this one beautifully
Agreed. Losing Gordon is short term pain but a long term gain.
As good as Gordon was with the Yankees (post season excluded); the bottom line is that he's 38 years old with a history of health issues.
The Yankees need to get younger and more fiscally efficient in order to have any sustained success in the future.
ZYanksRule
12-01-05, 10:34 PM
Ewwwww... I'm not happy about this.
Now we NEED Farnsworth. If we dont get him, our bullpen is going to be really bad next year.
jimmykey2
12-01-05, 10:36 PM
I realize I posted this yesterday, but I feel it needs to be shown again.
Flash Gordon wasn't nearly as good in 2005 as he was in 2004. However, he did manage to do this...
ERA+
Mo Rivera 323
Huston Street 261
Mike Timlin 197
FLASH GORDON 173
BJ Ryan 170
Bob Wickman 166
Joe Nathan 163
Bobby Jenks 162
K-Rod 157
Scot Shields 152
Danys Baez 151
Fran Cordero 132
Miguel Batista 109
Yanks21
12-01-05, 10:38 PM
I wish Gordon well. They really need these picks though...
The guy they should sign is Julian Tavarez...
goin for 27
12-01-05, 10:38 PM
Cashman handled this one beautifully
How? Cash went to the third year, and still lost him. One could argue if he stuck to his guns at two years that he handled it well. (if he has plan b, which he must)
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:39 PM
Agreed. Losing Gordon is short term pain but a long term gain.
As good as Gordon was with the Yankees (post season excluded); the bottom line is that he's 38 years old with a history of health issues.
The Yankees need to get younger and more fiscally efficient in order to have any sustained success in the future.
He gets two draft picks-hopefully #21(if the Phillies don't sign another type A FA rated higher than Gordon)and a sandwich pick.Gordon would not have fetched two prospects last summer
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:40 PM
How? Cash went to the third year, and still lost him. One could argue if he stuck to his guns at two years that he handled it well. (if he has plan b, which he must)
When did Cashman guarantee Gordon a third year?
NewEraYanks2527
12-01-05, 10:43 PM
When did Cashman guarantee Gordon a third year?
It was reported the Yankees came in and offered a third year but to me, if they did it must not have been for the money Gordon of wanted or he probably would have stayed here. So really I think Cashman did fine.
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:46 PM
It was reported the Yankees came in and offered a third year but to me, if they did it must not have been for the money Gordon of wanted or he probably would have stayed here. So really I think Cashman did fine.
Do you have a link?The Yankees went hard after Gordon but were leery of the third year
TheScooter
12-01-05, 10:47 PM
The Phillie fans are loving the Gordon move
http://www.philaphans.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=34044
NewEraYanks2527
12-01-05, 10:48 PM
Do you have a link?The Yankees went hard after Gordon but were leery of the third year
I didnt say I knew that, it was my hypothesis. The articale is on Fox Sports
PoughVirginiaYankee
12-01-05, 10:48 PM
This sucks.
First, it makes the Farnsworth signing a wash. Farnsworth AND Gordon would have been great. Farnsworth, no Gordon? Meh.
The other reason it sucks is that Farnsworth can still sign elsewhere, (worst case scenario) or drag his heels for a couple of weeks, and drive his price through the roof.
I wish I did not see this before I have to go to sleep. :(
Totally agree...it would have been GREAT to have them both. Having one of them, is not as great...just "meh," as you put it.
This can be rescued by getting another decent set-up guy...but I dont know who's really left...
goin for 27
12-01-05, 10:49 PM
Do you have a link?The Yankees went hard after Gordon but were leery of the third year
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5131914
...mentions that Cash went to a third year for Gordon.
MattUNC2003
12-01-05, 10:50 PM
The Phillie fans are loving the Gordon move
http://www.philaphans.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=34044
And I thought we could be bad sometimes...Jeez.
sugmasterflex
12-01-05, 10:51 PM
Good luck Flash.
Zimmers' Helmet
12-01-05, 10:52 PM
He gets two draft picks-hopefully #21(if the Phillies don't sign another type A FA rated higher than Gordon)and a sandwich pick.Gordon would not have fetched two prospects last summer
He may have; but not armed with a contract that will pay him $6 million a year until he's 41 like he does now. I would be beyond surprised if Gordon maintains his effectiveness for the length of that contract.
I would rather valuable draft picks which will help restock the farm system than end up overpaying for yet another aging player.
Just like Gordon looked after his own best interests; the Yankees have to do the same.
nycdoc999
12-01-05, 10:52 PM
There is NO guarantee that 2 draft picks will ever turn out to be 1/2 the player that Tom Gordon was for the Yankees....
If Joe Torre had any clue how to use the pen effectively in 2004, Flash would not have been pitching in fumes in the ALCS after throwing 91 (that's right - 91!!!) innings during the regular season...
It's not the 3y/$18M contracts for pitchers who can still pitch and have shown they can handle pitching in NYC that we have to worry about. It's the 3y/$21M and 4y/$40M contracts for pitchers like Jaret Wright and Pavano that are fiscally irresponsible.
This is a relatively big blow that may not be apparent to all here at the present, but will be painfully clear when Tavarez reverts back to being the mediocre pitcher he has been his ENTIRE career and when Farnsworth has a meltdown and Torre loses confidence in him. THen we'll realize Gordon's true value to this team - the protection he afforded Mariano. He was the ONLY other guy you could even kinda count in in the pen. Now - we have no one besides for Mo.
Boston has done a great job of addressing their weakensses, even without a GM. They were weak in SP so what do they do? Go out and trade for a good one. They were an arm short in the pen, so what do they do? Draft a pitcher (Craig Hansen) that will help them NOW, and take a low-risk gamble in Mota buy squeezing the "pressure point" of the Marlins.
The jury is still out on the Yankees, but I'm not liking how things are progessing so far. George is gonna get pissed and the next thing you know, we'll be announcing the signing of Johnny Damon to a 5y/$55M contract with a 6th year player option! :eek:
Zimmers' Helmet
12-01-05, 10:53 PM
The Phillie fans are loving the Gordon move
http://www.philaphans.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=34044
Lets see how much they're loving it in 2007 and 2008.
Yanks21
12-01-05, 10:55 PM
Lets see how much they're loving it in 2007 and 2008.
Read the thread...They hate the move...
HouseThatRingsBuild
12-01-05, 10:56 PM
It would have been hard to give him three years at 38. but what sucks is, when to did the front office become so cheap?
nyg02005
12-01-05, 11:04 PM
my problem with all of this is why did they not signed farnsworth ahead of this deal if they in fact have not signed farnsworth yet. With gordon still available, they have the upper hand in the negotiation with farnsworth.
Zimmers' Helmet
12-01-05, 11:06 PM
Read the thread...They hate the move...
They're going to hate it even more with time.
Better them than us.
Dooley Womack
12-01-05, 11:10 PM
Great if we sign Farns, awful if we don't.
He's a 38 year old pitcher with an arm that'll soon be turning 43 thanks to Torre.
dabomb2045
12-01-05, 11:11 PM
good luck Flash....you will be missed badly next year
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:13 PM
It would have been hard to give him three years at 38. but what sucks is, when to did the front office become so cheap?
They're far from cheap. They're about to give Kyle Farnsworth $6 million a season...
ryanthe13th
12-01-05, 11:13 PM
Jesus christ. Those guys on the Phillies board, and lots of people in this thread, are trashing Gordon like he is god awful. Are we talking about the same Tom Gordon who posted ERA's of 2.21 and 2.57 for us in 2 years? I don't get all the Flash bashing. He's getting old, yeah. That doesn't automatically ensure he is going to be terrible. I wouldn't sign Flash for 3 years, but 2 with the 3rd as an option is something I'd consider given this market.
dabomb2045
12-01-05, 11:14 PM
They're far from cheap. They're about to give Kyle Farnsworth $6 million a season...
IF we get him....Im no longer assuming things anymore
WebsterMulligan
12-01-05, 11:14 PM
Good luck, Flash! Hope you like Philly.
Yankee Clipper
12-01-05, 11:15 PM
The only problem I have with letting go is that we were very willing to give Farnsworth a 3 year deal but were so hesitant with Gordon. I know the age difference, but at least Gordon has proven he can pitch in NY well. We dont' even know if Farnsworth can pitch well consistent, let alone in NY.
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:17 PM
my problem with all of this is why did they not signed farnsworth ahead of this deal if they in fact have not signed farnsworth yet. With gordon still available, they have the upper hand in the negotiation with farnsworth.
Farnsworth has a smart agent...
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:20 PM
The only problem I have with letting go is that we were very willing to give Farnsworth a 3 year deal but were so hesitant with Gordon. I know the age difference, but at least Gordon has proven he can pitch in NY well. We dont' even know if Farnsworth can pitch well consistent, let alone in NY.
Age and injury history had everything to do with this. I don't disagree about the concerns with Farnsworth though...
Dooley Womack
12-01-05, 11:21 PM
From Wagner to Flash. Talk about taking a few steps backwards!
WebsterMulligan
12-01-05, 11:21 PM
The only problem I have with letting go is that we were very willing to give Farnsworth a 3 year deal but were so hesitant with Gordon. I know the age difference, but at least Gordon has proven he can pitch in NY well. We dont' even know if Farnsworth can pitch well consistent, let alone in NY.
That's the chance you take with any new FA aquisition. The Yankees are doing the correct thing, by making an attempt to get younger.
Yankee Clipper
12-01-05, 11:23 PM
Age and injury history had everything to do with this. I don't disagree about the concerns with Farnsworth though...
I understand the negotiating with Gordon, I just don't understand why we're so quick with Farnsworth. I guess they're just concerned by the way the market has gone so far and don't want to lose another reliever. I think they should've gone after both pitchers equally, but give Gordon the slight edge, but by reports, it seems that they went hard after Farnsworth all the way and went after Gordon hard after the face Philly was closing in on him.
Yankee Clipper
12-01-05, 11:27 PM
That's the chance you take with any new FA aquisition. The Yankees are doing the correct thing, by making an attempt to get younger.
We did that last year and Pavano and Wright have yet to produce. I don't want to give up on them, but I don't want to repeat it with Farnsworth.
ChrisV82
12-01-05, 11:32 PM
I saw this coming as soon as Wagner went to New York. Even though some say Gordon was overworked, I felt the Phillies would target him. He has experience on a big stage, he was available, and he was also probably the best option for a closer out there. Even the Phillies fans thought Gordon would be the choice.
Good luck to you, Tommy, I think this works out best for both sides.
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:33 PM
I understand the negotiating with Gordon, I just don't understand why we're so quick with Farnsworth. I guess they're just concerned by the way the market has gone so far and don't want to lose another reliever. I think they should've gone after both pitchers equally, but give Gordon the slight edge, but by reports, it seems that they went hard after Farnsworth all the way and went after Gordon hard after the face Philly was closing in on him.
They considered Farnsworth the "best of the rest" in terms of would be set-up men. Howry and Eyre were already off the market. They didn't want to go three years with Gordon. The others are closers, whom only want to close. They can't make a trade for any relievers, because the only players that anyone asks for are Cano and Wang...
BTW, this wouldn't even be an issue had they drafted Huston Street two years ago, like they should have...
27IsNext
12-01-05, 11:35 PM
Good. Offer him arbitration and get the picks.
Thanks for everything, Gordon. Sorry about Joe, he must've killed your arm by now.
NewEraYanks2527
12-01-05, 11:36 PM
He has experience on a big stage
Not really good experience on a really BIG stage, besides his postseason stats will be irrelevant in Philly.
Michaels07
12-01-05, 11:37 PM
Huston Street was suggested by several members of the forum, but rejected by most.
NewEraYanks2527
12-01-05, 11:40 PM
BTW, this wouldn't even be an issue had they drafted Huston Street two years ago, like they should have...
Well that just goes to show you that you never know with prospects. Remember it's not just the Yankees, the D-Backs passed on Cano last year when we were trading for RJ.
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:41 PM
Huston Street was suggested by several members of the forum, but rejected by most.
I remember those times quite well...
puckmaster87
12-01-05, 11:42 PM
The only problem I have with letting go is that we were very willing to give Farnsworth a 3 year deal but were so hesitant with Gordon. I know the age difference, but at least Gordon has proven he can pitch in NY well. We dont' even know if Farnsworth can pitch well consistent, let alone in NY.
He throws 100mph and has some excellent pitches to go along with it...I don't know too many unsuccessful fireballers who throw 100.
Panamaniac42
12-01-05, 11:43 PM
The only problem I have with letting go is that we were very willing to give Farnsworth a 3 year deal but were so hesitant with Gordon. I know the age difference, but at least Gordon has proven he can pitch in NY well. We dont' even know if Farnsworth can pitch well consistent, let alone in NY.
I wouldn't want to pay Gordon 3 more years because he hasn't proven crap abotu pitching in NY. He is awful in the postseason.
I'd rather roll the dice on Farnsworth and if he, too, is David Ortiz's personal bitch and throws up at the first sign of pressure, then so be it.
ChrisV82
12-01-05, 11:44 PM
Not really good experience on a really BIG stage, besides his postseason stats will be irrelevant in Philly.
Well, I mean, he pitched in a high pressure situation in a big media town. Philly is nowhere near the size of New York, and baseball falls behind football and hockey (and maybe basketball, even), but Philly is definitely high on hype and fan expectations and low on tolerance. They were burying the team all year last season even though the team still came within 1 game of the wild card. So I think the NY factor was important to them.
Also, the switch to NL hitters will probably balance out any decline he faces as he approaches 40.
I Love Wang
12-01-05, 11:45 PM
They considered Farnsworth the "best of the rest" in terms of would be set-up men. Howry and Eyre were already off the market. They didn't want to go three years with Gordon. The others are closers, whom only want to close. They can't make a trade for any relievers, because the only players that anyone asks for are Cano and Wang...
BTW, this wouldn't even be an issue had they drafted Huston Street two years ago, like they should have...
Farnsworth is WAY ................ing better that Howry and Eyre. Howry is going to be a total ................ing idaster next yerar.
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:45 PM
Well that just goes to show you that you never know with prospects. Remember it's not just the Yankees, the D-Backs passed on Cano last year when we were trading for RJ.
You could see in college that Street was gonna be a good one. It had to do with the foolish notion that closers shouldn't be drafted in the first round or sandwich round...
StatenIslandYankee
12-01-05, 11:47 PM
What kind of a pick do we get out of this?
Yankee Clipper
12-01-05, 11:47 PM
I wouldn't want to pay Gordon 3 more years because he hasn't proven crap abotu pitching in NY. He is awful in the postseason.
I'd rather roll the dice on Farnsworth and if he, too, is David Ortiz's personal bitch and throws up at the first sign of pressure, then so be it.
Yeah but you could make the case without him both years, we don't make the playoffs without him.
NewEraYanks2527
12-01-05, 11:48 PM
You could see in college that Street was gonna be a good one. It had to do with the foolish notion that closers shouldn't be drafted in the first round or sandwich round... Who did we draft instead?
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:49 PM
Farnsworth is WAY ................ing better that Howry and Eyre. Howry is going to be a total ................ing idaster next yerar.
Eyre's actually a solid lefty, and given the market, decent value. I agree on Howry. The Yankees were said to have significant interest in both...
StatenIslandYankee
12-01-05, 11:50 PM
I actually have a feeling Farnsworth is going to be one of those signings that everyone says "wow I'm glad we got this guy" ...
Panamaniac42
12-01-05, 11:51 PM
Who did we draft instead?
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/draftday/y2004/search.jsp?sc=round&sp=1S
<table class="dtLiteBg" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="581"> <tbody><tr class="dtTextRow"><td class="dtTextPlyr" width="130">JONATHAN POTERSON</td><td class="dtText" width="95">
</td><td class="dtText" width="45">C</td><td class="dtText" width="25">S/R</td><td class="dtText" width="25">6'1"</td><td class="dtText" width="25">215</td><td class="dtText" width="60">1986-02-10 </td><td class="dtText" width="35">HS</td><td class="dtTextVid" nowrap="nowrap" width="55">
</td> </tr><tr> <td colspan="11" class="dtComment" width="579">COMMENT: GREAT BODY. LARGE, WELL PROPORTIONED FRAME. STRONG BUILD. BARREL CHEST. DEVELOPED LOWER 1/2. EVEN STANCE W/ WIDE BASE. SLIGHT KNEE FLEX. GOOD LOAD & WEIGHT TRANSFER. NO STRIDE, INWARD KNEE TURN. SLIGHT LEFT HAMSTRING STRAIN. PLUS BAT SPEED W/ STRENGTH & EXTENTION THROUGH SLIGHT UPPERCUT PLANE. BALANCED APPROACH, GOOD LEVERAGE. BIG RAW PWR. AGGRESSIVE, LOFT STROKE. BALL JUMPS OFF BAT. CRUSHES MISTAKES. PLUS ML HR POTENTIAL. HIGH PROFILE, SWITCH HITTING HS CATCHER W/ A BIG LEAGUE BODY & A LIVE, POLISHED BAT. PLUS PWR POTENTIAL.
</td></tr></tbody> </table>
I'd love to have Street right now but we're gonna have to give this kid catcher 5 or 6 years before we bemoan not taking Street.
NewEraYanks2527
12-01-05, 11:52 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/draftday/y2004/search.jsp?sc=round&sp=1S
<TABLE class=dtLiteBg cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=581 border=0><TBODY><TR class=dtTextRow><TD class=dtTextPlyr width=130>JONATHAN POTERSON</TD><TD class=dtText width=95>
</TD><TD class=dtText width=45>C</TD><TD class=dtText width=25>S/R</TD><TD class=dtText width=25>6'1"</TD><TD class=dtText width=25>215</TD><TD class=dtText width=60>1986-02-10 </TD><TD class=dtText width=35>HS</TD><TD class=dtTextVid noWrap width=55>
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=dtComment width=579 colSpan=11>COMMENT: GREAT BODY. LARGE, WELL PROPORTIONED FRAME. STRONG BUILD. BARREL CHEST. DEVELOPED LOWER 1/2. EVEN STANCE W/ WIDE BASE. SLIGHT KNEE FLEX. GOOD LOAD & WEIGHT TRANSFER. NO STRIDE, INWARD KNEE TURN. SLIGHT LEFT HAMSTRING STRAIN. PLUS BAT SPEED W/ STRENGTH & EXTENTION THROUGH SLIGHT UPPERCUT PLANE. BALANCED APPROACH, GOOD LEVERAGE. BIG RAW PWR. AGGRESSIVE, LOFT STROKE. BALL JUMPS OFF BAT. CRUSHES MISTAKES. PLUS ML HR POTENTIAL. HIGH PROFILE, SWITCH HITTING HS CATCHER W/ A BIG LEAGUE BODY & A LIVE, POLISHED BAT. PLUS PWR POTENTIAL.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Thanks.
JeffWeaverFan
12-01-05, 11:53 PM
Giving Gordon 3 years is lunacy. I'm a bit surprised we upped our offer to 3 years, and that worries me that they don't know if Farnsworth will sign.
StatenIslandYankee
12-01-05, 11:54 PM
Giving Gordon 3 years is lunacy. I'm a bit surprised we upped our offer to 3 years, and that worries me that they don't know if Farnsworth will sign.
We offered Tom 3 years?
nycdoc999
12-01-05, 11:55 PM
It's not even really open to debate....
We DON'T make the playoffs either year without Gordon....
End of story. We got GREAT value out of the length of his contract. Find me a better set up man over the course of the past 2 years. You can't. No one's numbers compare.
Gordon didn't choke. He was just used excessively and incorrectly by foolish Joe....
He will be sorely missed next year, and his absence will be one the main reasons we don't win the division next year.
It's fine if they want to take a step back and rebuild. I have no problem with that. They just better not get stuck in between going for it and rebuilding, singing loser NL relief pitchers like Julian Tavarez.
You feel comfortable seeing Tavarez in the game in the 6th or 7th inning with a few men on facing Manny, Varitek, Ortiz, or any of those guys? Me neither....
I have as much confidence in him as I do in myself gettin those guys out....
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:55 PM
Who did we draft instead?
Jon Poterson...
Yankees actually considered taking Street in the first round. However, Phil Hughes was their top target, and wisely pounced when he fell to them. Street was expected to be selected by the A's at #24 or #26, but they wound-up passing. Street was available to the Yankees at #37, and he should've been the pick. Not Jon Poterson. Not Gio Gonzalez. Not Jay Rainville. Street went to the A's at #40...
NewEraYanks2527
12-01-05, 11:58 PM
He will be sorely missed next year, and his absence will be one the main reasons we don't win the division next year.
....
Oh for crying out loud Spring Training hasn't even started yet and your conceding the division. Just find a bridge and jump.
Yanks21
12-01-05, 11:58 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/draftday/y2004/search.jsp?sc=round&sp=1S
<TABLE class=dtLiteBg cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=581 border=0><TBODY><TR class=dtTextRow><TD class=dtTextPlyr width=130>JONATHAN POTERSON</TD><TD class=dtText width=95>
</TD><TD class=dtText width=45>C</TD><TD class=dtText width=25>S/R</TD><TD class=dtText width=25>6'1"</TD><TD class=dtText width=25>215</TD><TD class=dtText width=60>1986-02-10 </TD><TD class=dtText width=35>HS</TD><TD class=dtTextVid noWrap width=55>
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=dtComment width=579 colSpan=11>COMMENT: GREAT BODY. LARGE, WELL PROPORTIONED FRAME. STRONG BUILD. BARREL CHEST. DEVELOPED LOWER 1/2. EVEN STANCE W/ WIDE BASE. SLIGHT KNEE FLEX. GOOD LOAD & WEIGHT TRANSFER. NO STRIDE, INWARD KNEE TURN. SLIGHT LEFT HAMSTRING STRAIN. PLUS BAT SPEED W/ STRENGTH & EXTENTION THROUGH SLIGHT UPPERCUT PLANE. BALANCED APPROACH, GOOD LEVERAGE. BIG RAW PWR. AGGRESSIVE, LOFT STROKE. BALL JUMPS OFF BAT. CRUSHES MISTAKES. PLUS ML HR POTENTIAL. HIGH PROFILE, SWITCH HITTING HS CATCHER W/ A BIG LEAGUE BODY & A LIVE, POLISHED BAT. PLUS PWR POTENTIAL.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I'd love to have Street right now but we're gonna have to give this kid catcher 5 or 6 years before we bemoan not taking Street.
He ain't a catcher anymore...
This selection has been debated in Around the Minors for two years running...
nycdoc999
12-01-05, 11:59 PM
Now if they put the $18M they saved on Gordon into scouting and player development, then it's money well spent.
That is where we should have a significant financial edge over every other team. That is where we should use our vast resources to dominate.
So that we're not at the mercy of players like BJ Ryan, Julian Tavarez, and Kyle Farnsworth exclusively. So that we can fill at least SOME of these spots on our roster with good, inexpensive players that we've developed or drafted.
This should be their MO. Hopefully it is. It'll take time to rebuild this mess and reappropriate funds properly. That is how we go back to dominating - developing, scouting, recruiting - and spending the most money on players as well.
Panamaniac42
12-02-05, 12:00 AM
He ain't a catcher anymore...
This selection has been debated in Around the Minors for two years running...
i apologize, i'm not all that hip to the minors and am fairly new to this board.
well damn that makes passing on Street look bad now doesn't it.
Yanks21
12-02-05, 12:02 AM
i apologize, i'm not all that hip to the minors and am fairly new to this board.
No need to apologize...
Cuban Connection
12-02-05, 12:02 AM
He throws 100mph and has some excellent pitches to go along with it...I don't know too many unsuccessful fireballers who throw 100.
Matt anderson???
Panamaniac42
12-02-05, 12:03 AM
No need to apologize...
eh, i like to keep abreast of everything yankee...as a member of the board i should be scoping out the Minors threads, etc etc.
i'll get around to it eventually :)
nycdoc999
12-02-05, 12:04 AM
NewEra....
You need to relax. I've been a season ticket holder for 21 years. Seen this team though many a lean year. Finishing second in the division is a real possibility - and if it happens, so be it. I'm not jumping off any bridges, and neither should you. So check yourself.
Gordon was a valuable part of this team. Whether he would have been of the same value in 2007 and beyond is debatable, but there can be no denying he's been of great value to us the past 2 years. He, as much as anyone else besides for Rivera, has played a role in our success. He certainly will be missed, and will be hard to replace.
Our team is definitely weaker in the short term.
JeffWeaverFan
12-02-05, 12:06 AM
We offered Tom 3 years?
That is what was reported. But I think that it is more to do with the fact that we wanted both Farnsworth and Gordon.
Yanks21
12-02-05, 12:07 AM
Now if they put the $18M they saved on Gordon into scouting and player development, then it's money well spent.
That is where we should have a significant financial edge over every other team. That is where we should use our vast resources to dominate.
So that we're not at the mercy of players like BJ Ryan, Julian Tavarez, and Kyle Farnsworth exclusively. So that we can fill at least SOME of these spots on our roster with good, inexpensive players that we've developed or drafted.
This should be their MO. Hopefully it is. It'll take time to rebuild this mess and reappropriate funds properly. That is how we go back to dominating - developing, scouting, recruiting - and spending the most money on players as well.
Couldn't have said it better. Unfortunately, they've had some "issues" with the draft. A lot of those problems stemmed from the Tampa/Bronx faction nonsense...
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 12:17 AM
That is what was reported. But I think that it is more to do with the fact that we wanted both Farnsworth and Gordon.
I prefer Farnsworth.
JeffWeaverFan
12-02-05, 12:18 AM
I prefer Farnsworth.
As do I. We better get him...
vegematarian
12-02-05, 12:20 AM
Bummer. That would have been great to have Gordon-Farnsworth-Rivera.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 12:20 AM
As do I. We better get him...
I doubt he goes to texas.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:21 AM
He throws 100mph and has some excellent pitches to go along with it...I don't know too many unsuccessful fireballers who throw 100. How about that 4.45 ERA, 99 ERA+ guy that closed for the Braves last year? Kyle something or other.
God, I just know we're going to be calling him Farnsworthless before all is said and done.
I'm going to miss Gordon, old or not.
Whatever. What's done is done. Now we just root for Kyle to buck the trend and get another effective reliever after him.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 12:24 AM
How about that 4.45 ERA, 99 ERA+ guy that closed for the Braves last year? Kyle something or other.
God, I just know we're going to be calling him Farnsworthless before all is said and done.
I'm going to miss Gordon, old or not.
Whatever. What's done is done. Now we just root for Kyle to buck the trend and get another effective reliever after him.
I won't miss those MOONSHOTS he served up in the playoffs against the Red Sox.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:26 AM
I won't miss those MOONSHOTS he served up in the playoffs against the Red Sox.And yet you want Farnsworth.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 12:27 AM
And yet you want Farnsworth.
Gordon wants to close and he wanted a 3 year deal, which means he wasn't coming back.
Who else do you want besides WAGNER, RYAN, GORDON?
Farnsworth is the next best option.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:29 AM
Gordon wants to close and he wanted a 3 year deal, which means he wasn't coming back.
Who else do you want besides WAGNER, RYAN, GORDON?
I wanted someone who had somethin resembling a decent tract record. Instead we dicked around Tom Gordon and drooled over the one big year. Its like Pavano and Wright all over again.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 12:30 AM
I wanted someone who had somethin resembling a decent tract record. Instead we dicked around Tom Gordon and drooled over the one big year. Its like Pavano and Wright all over again.
I wouldn't give Gordon a third year. Sorry.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:31 AM
I wouldn't give Gordon a third year. Sorry.And I wouldn't give a bad pitcher a first, second or third year regardless of how young he is.
Yankee Clipper
12-02-05, 12:33 AM
Gordon wants to close and he wanted a 3 year deal, which means he wasn't coming back.
Who else do you want besides WAGNER, RYAN, GORDON?
Farnsworth is the next best option.
See I have no problem if we couldn't get Gordon at any costs and fans were ok with that. But that's not the case. Instead they didn't want Gordon because he's 38, he did poorly in the ALCS a year ago. Yet we were so keen on getting RJ (not trying to compare the two) but he's older than dirt.
Also, you say that Farnsworth is the next best option. If that were so, then why are you saying you won't miss Gordon?
That's what I don't understand, Gordon is much better than Farnsworth. And sure we should get younger, but you don't sacrifice talent for youth. Signing Gordon to a 3 year deal wont' paralyze us at all and wouldn't prevent guys in our farm from coming up, because (A) you let them serve as 7th inning, mop up work in the beginning or (B) you trade him because you know there are are going to be some suitors. And if he gets hurt, oh well, we let the youngsters take over and we pay the remaining money left over. Farnsworth is so questionable, we don't know if he'll be able to repeat 2005, let alone handle the NY pressure.
puckmaster87
12-02-05, 12:34 AM
How about that 4.45 ERA, 99 ERA+ guy that closed for the Braves last year? Kyle something or other.
God, I just know we're going to be calling him Farnsworthless before all is said and done.
I'm going to miss Gordon, old or not.
Whatever. What's done is done. Now we just root for Kyle to buck the trend and get another effective reliever after him.
He got better last year, because he developed his pitches. There's no reason to believe that he would just lose that. He has had some good years before that, but so long as his fastball has some movement on it, he should be just fine.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 12:34 AM
And I wouldn't give a bad pitcher a first, second or third year regardless of how young he is.
Ok then where do we go from here?
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 12:36 AM
He had a good year last year, I don't see why you can't believe he 'turned the corner'
JeffWeaverFan
12-02-05, 12:38 AM
And yet you want Farnsworth.
Last season Gordon gave up 8 HR's to Farnsworth's 5.
JeffWeaverFan
12-02-05, 12:39 AM
He got better last year, because he developed his pitches. There's no reason to believe that he would just lose that. He has had some good years before that, but so long as his fastball has some movement on it, he should be just fine.
All that he has to do is continue to strike as many guys out as he always does and not walk too many people.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:40 AM
Ok then where do we go from here? I have absolutely no idea. Much like the 04 offseason, where they ignored Pedro Martinez for the likes of Jaret ................ing Wright, they got so infatuated by one year that they've painted themselves into a corner. They're probably going to have to buy the shiny, inferior new toy in Farnsworth.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 12:41 AM
I have absolutely no idea. Much like the 04 offseason, where they ignored Pedro Martinez for the likes of Jaret ................ing Wright, they got so infatuated by one year that they've painted themselves into a corner. They're probably going to have to buy the shiny, inferior new toy in Farnsworth.
Wright was a tampa signing, not a Cashman one.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:41 AM
Last season Gordon gave up 8 HR's to Farnsworth's 5. I just dont think people should be bringing up Gordon's playoff meltdowns while praising Farnsworth.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:44 AM
He got better last year, because he developed his pitches. There's no reason to believe that he would just lose that. He has had some good years before that, . You answered your own question. He has shown absolutely no ability to string two good years together. Why should I believe this is going to be any different than 01 or 03? His rare flashes of ability
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:45 AM
All that he has to do is continue to strike as many guys out as he always does and not walk too many people. He struck out 78 guys in 67 innings in 04 and sucked.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:46 AM
Wright was a tampa signing, not a Cashman one.So? Its the same priniciple. Ignore skill for youth and the most recent year.
JeffWeaverFan
12-02-05, 12:49 AM
He struck out 78 guys in 67 innings in 04 and sucked.
Which is less than he usually does. He also walked too many guys that year and my guess is he was unlucky that year. Personally, I think that year is the exception and he will continue with his late 2004 and 2005 success he enjoyed after he developed a new pitch.
JeffWeaverFan
12-02-05, 12:49 AM
I just dont think people should be bringing up Gordon's playoff meltdowns while praising Farnsworth.
The HR he gave up would have been a flyball out at most every other ballpark.
Yankee Clipper
12-02-05, 12:49 AM
So? Its the same priniciple. Ignore skill for youth and the most recent year.
Especially for contracts with small years. If you want to get young fine, but sacrificing it for talent is wrong. If you sign these older players to less years than previous, you won't be in a world of hurt, if they get hurt. Plus its not like these young guys we've been bringing in have not been injury prone.
Yankee Clipper
12-02-05, 12:50 AM
The HR he gave up would have been a flyball out at most every other ballpark.
Look at 2003 and you'll see Farnsy did worse than any of Gordon's playoff experiences with the Yanks.
Mattpat11
12-02-05, 12:53 AM
Which is less than he usually does. .Its still very good.
and my guess is he was unlucky
Oh lord.
Personally, I think that year is the exception It sort of seems to be the rule.
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