View Full Version : Juan Pierre...
LETSGOYANKEEEEES
11-29-05, 10:26 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside, I think juan pierre is our best option for CF...
* Speed, speed, and more speed
* Drops Jeter to the 2 hole, his best slot...
* A pesky player with the ability to change an entire game with one move
(see Juan Pierre, WS 2003 or Dave Roberts ALCS 2004)
* He's very young...if he comes to fruition in pinstripes we can hang on to him for many years, and if not- then we phase him out in a year or two
* Probably not terribly hard to acquire with moderate to low costs- the Marlins are officially purging all sanity, and salary.
* A player who can handle covering one of the biggest outfields in the bigs.
* Knows what it takes to win
Are there any definitively BETTER options out there? Internally AND Externally?
I think this one is a no brainer...I'd love to see him get a bunt single in a close ballgame, steal second and then score on a Jeter line drive to right field...easyyyy money...and easy run production.
Give it some thought
Hey, he knows what it takes to win...
ryanm1058123
11-29-05, 10:34 PM
sucks.
Thats all that needs to be said.
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside, I think juan pierre is our best option for CF...
* Speed, speed, and more speed
* Drops Jeter to the 2 hole, his best slot...
* A pesky player with the ability to change an entire game with one move
(see Juan Pierre, WS 2003 or Dave Roberts ALCS 2004)
* He's very young...if he comes to fruition in pinstripes we can hang on to him for many years, and if not- then we phase him out in a year or two
* Probably not terribly hard to acquire with moderate to low costs- the Marlins are officially purging all sanity, and salary.
* A player who can handle covering one of the biggest outfields in the bigs.
* Knows what it takes to win
Are there any definitively BETTER options out there? Internally AND Externally?
I think this one is a no brainer...I'd love to see him get a bunt single in a close ballgame, steal second and then score on a Jeter line drive to right field...easyyyy money...and easy run production.
Give it some thought
Great idea. Ya think the Yankees could get him for Wang, Cano, Duncan, Chacon & Mariano Rivera? More? I do it even if the Yankees have to throw in a few million.
LETSGOYANKEEEEES
11-29-05, 10:36 PM
sucks.
Thats all that needs to be said.
who do you want in CF brozeph?
LETSGOYANKEEEEES
11-29-05, 10:39 PM
Great idea. Ya think the Yankees could get him for Wang, Cano, Duncan, Chacon & Mariano Rivera? More? I do it even if the Yankees have to throw in a few million.
Can you explain a more logical option? I hope it isn't Bubba "I'll run into Gary Sheffield in RCF during the biggest play of the season, and also can't do much of anything else" Crosby...
Can you explain a more logical option? I hope it isn't Bubba "I'll run into Gary Sheffield in RCF during the biggest play of the season, and also can't do much of anything else" Crosby...
No way man... I'm with you. I'm on your bandwagon. I'll even carry the Tuba.
rightfielder21
11-29-05, 10:44 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside...
:lol:
ICEBERG18
11-29-05, 10:45 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside, I think juan pierre is our best option for CF...
* Speed, speed, and more speed
* Drops Jeter to the 2 hole, his best slot...
* A pesky player with the ability to change an entire game with one move
(see Juan Pierre, WS 2003 or Dave Roberts ALCS 2004)
* He's very young...if he comes to fruition in pinstripes we can hang on to him for many years, and if not- then we phase him out in a year or two
* Probably not terribly hard to acquire with moderate to low costs- the Marlins are officially purging all sanity, and salary.
* A player who can handle covering one of the biggest outfields in the bigs.
* Knows what it takes to win
Are there any definitively BETTER options out there? Internally AND Externally?
I think this one is a no brainer...I'd love to see him get a bunt single in a close ballgame, steal second and then score on a Jeter line drive to right field...easyyyy money...and easy run production.
Give it some thought
:upset: :dunno: :( :mad: :lol: :barf: :scared: :snooze: :-po'd-: :enraged: :-surrende :-spam-: :-sorry-: :-shrug-: :doh: :giveup: :argh: :jaw-drop: :looking: :nopity: :thatsodd: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
SubwayFanatic
11-29-05, 10:46 PM
:lol:
:lol: ... :mad:
AMYanks
11-29-05, 10:46 PM
Jeter is a better leadoff hitter.
He's a horrible hitter, a horrible fielder, with a horrible arm.
But, as we all know, speed is what wins championships; what makes dynasties.
DandyAndy46
11-29-05, 10:50 PM
There's something about his .326 OBP last year that makes me just a little un-impressed
:eek::eek::eek:
I Love Wang
11-29-05, 10:52 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside, I think juan pierre is our best option for CF...
* Speed, speed, and more speed
Totally overrated skill that declines early.
* Drops Jeter to the 2 hole, his best slot...
Pierre posted a .326 OBP last year. Why the hell do we want him leading off?
And just for good measure:
Derek Jeter career, leadoff; .317/.390/.472
Derek Jeter career, 2-hole; .313/.386/.465
How is the 2-hole his best slot? Because you said so? Because Tim McCarver said so? Because Joe Morgan said so? Because it was arbitrarily decided by any of a number of mouth-breathing neanderthal analysts who don't like to base their opinions on actual facts?
* A pesky player with the ability to change an entire game with one move
(see Juan Pierre, WS 2003 or Dave Roberts ALCS 2004)
He's pesky because he keeps getting brought up, despite the fact that he sucks. You know what changes a game with one move? Hitting for power. Pierre doesn't get on base enough to be an effective basestealing weapon, and he gets thrown out WAY too much.
* He's very young...if he comes to fruition in pinstripes we can hang on to him for many years, and if not- then we phase him out in a year or two
He's going to be 28 next year. Is that "very young?" No. It isn't. In fact, considering Pierre's skill set, he's probably in decline.
* Probably not terribly hard to acquire with moderate to low costs- the Marlins are officially purging all sanity, and salary.
When the Yankees inquired about Pierre, they were told the price was Wang and Cano. The Cubs have made a ludicrous offer for him already.
* A player who can handle covering one of the biggest outfields in the bigs.
He has below-average range in the outfield, with a horrendous arm, to boot.
* Knows what it takes to win
What the hell does this mean? I know what it takes to win. IT TAKES OUTSCORING YOUR OPPONENTS. PIERRE IS NOT GOOD AT THIS.
Are there any definitively BETTER options out there? Internally AND Externally?
Yes: Michaels, Bradley, Wilkerson, Giles, even Damon. All better options than Juan "I suck" Pierre.
I think this one is a no brainer
Can't argue with that one.
..I'd love to see him get a bunt single in a close ballgame, steal second and then score on a Jeter line drive to right field...easyyyy money...and easy run production.
Pierre is bad at producing runs. He doesn't get on base much, and he has no power. I'd rather see Derek Jeter walk, and then have him driven home with a two run homer by A-Rod.
Give it some thought
I'm done. And I'm sick and tired of people saying that they don't want to hear stats that prove them wrong. Baseball is documented statistically. So people like you, and a number of other anti-intellectuals on this board, are essentially saying "Hey, I don't want to be proven wrong about my totally asinine idea! Everyone just pretend I'm right!"
Get Pierre. Lead him off. Let him be a gold glove CFer. Get Championships 27-33. Retire his number.
What er we waiting for?
Besides, he's a proven Win Method kinda guy.
Steph19
11-29-05, 10:53 PM
* Speed, speed, and more speed
He can steal bases, yes, but he also gets caught a lot. Do you really want to be taking that chance when you know you have Jeter, Rodriguez, and Sheffield all with a chance to drive you in?
* Drops Jeter to the 2 hole, his best slot...
Actually, that's not true, but okay. It's just the spot he's played in the most. He was one of, if not the best leadoff hitters in baseball in 2005.
* A pesky player with the ability to change an entire game with one move
(see Juan Pierre, WS 2003 or Dave Roberts ALCS 2004)
Just like Tony Womack changed our postseason in 2005?
* He's very young...if he comes to fruition in pinstripes we can hang on to him for many years, and if not- then we phase him out in a year or two
He really isn't that young and he's getting to the age where you can start to expect him to lose some speed. And that's the only thing he's got going for him. Milton Bradley is the same age and Brad Wilkerson is one year older.
* Probably not terribly hard to acquire with moderate to low costs- the Marlins are officially purging all sanity, and salary.
Moderate to low costs on the major league level... but they're going to want some top prospects.
* A player who can handle covering one of the biggest outfields in the bigs.
For a guy as fast as he is, stats don't say he has very good range. I know defensive stats can be misleading but there are probably better defensive options out there anyway... Even Bubba Crosby might be his equal.
* Knows what it takes to win
Yeah...
Are there any definitively BETTER options out there? Internally AND Externally?
Yes and they have been discussed at length.
Give it some thought
I say "pass."
Steph19
11-29-05, 10:53 PM
Ahh. I Love Wang beat me to the punch.
I Love Wang
11-29-05, 10:55 PM
Ahh. I Love Wang beat me to the punch.
I am powerful.
NewEraYanks2527
11-29-05, 10:55 PM
Considering that he is on the decline and the Marlins would probably want an arm and a leg from the Yankees for him (meanwhile the Sox could land him for a bag of balls and a funco bat) I'll say pass. But if you tell me Marlins will trade Pierre for say Scott Proctor or Wayne Franklin, I'm all for it.
These point by point responses give me a headache. A headache that could be driven away by the Yankees trading for Mr. Juan Pierre.
NewEraYanks2527
11-29-05, 10:57 PM
These point by point responses give me a headache. A headache that could be driven away by the Yankees signing Mr. Juan Pierre. Well we cant sign him we would have to trade for him so that headache is here to stay ;)
I Love Wang
11-29-05, 10:57 PM
These point by point responses give me a headache. A headache that could be driven away by the Yankees signing Mr. Juan Pierre.
I've got a fever. And the only prescription... is Juan Pierre.
Well we cant sign him we would have to trade for him so that headache is here to stay ;)
What?
NewEraYanks2527
11-29-05, 11:03 PM
What?
You said your headache would not go away until we signed Mr. Juan Pierre, we can not sign him because he is not a free agent, we can only trade for him, so your headache is here to stay until next year when I believe he is a free agent.
You said your headache would not go away until we signed Mr. Juan Pierre, we can not sign him because he is not a free agent, we can only trade for him, so your headache is here to stay until next year when I believe he is a free agent.
I said trade for Juan Pierre.
27IsNext
11-29-05, 11:05 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside,
You lost me right about there.
NewEraYanks2527
11-29-05, 11:05 PM
I said trade for Juan Pierre.
You cheated JD, just admit you went back and fixed it. You slippery devil you.
You cheated JD, just admit you went back and fixed it. You slippery devil you.
I didn't cheat. The test wasn't over. I corrected my answer. What's wrong with that I ask you?
AMYanks
11-29-05, 11:06 PM
I said trade for Juan Pierre.
He quoted you saying "signing". :jaw-drop:
He quoted you saying "signing". :jaw-drop:
Taking sides I see. OK then. I know who my friends are around here and that is nobody.
NewEraYanks2527
11-29-05, 11:10 PM
Taking sides I see. OK then. I know who my friends are around here and that is nobody. :lol:
Anyway... Cano, Wang, Duncan, Chacon, Mariano Rivera and I'll throw in Hughes as a PTBNL, and say 10 million. But that's it. I'm not allowing them to play hardball no matter how much I want Juan Pierre (who, by the way, has the coolest initials a human could hope for).
AMYanks
11-29-05, 11:10 PM
Taking sides I see. OK then. I know who my friends are around here and that is nobody.
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/6550.jpg
Magic Juan says, "Make peace, not war!"
JeffWeaverFan
11-29-05, 11:13 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside, I think juan pierre is our best option for CF...
* Speed, speed, and more speed
* Drops Jeter to the 2 hole, his best slot...
* A pesky player with the ability to change an entire game with one move
(see Juan Pierre, WS 2003 or Dave Roberts ALCS 2004)
* He's very young...if he comes to fruition in pinstripes we can hang on to him for many years, and if not- then we phase him out in a year or two
* Probably not terribly hard to acquire with moderate to low costs- the Marlins are officially purging all sanity, and salary.
* A player who can handle covering one of the biggest outfields in the bigs.
* Knows what it takes to win
Are there any definitively BETTER options out there? Internally AND Externally?
I think this one is a no brainer...I'd love to see him get a bunt single in a close ballgame, steal second and then score on a Jeter line drive to right field...easyyyy money...and easy run production.
Give it some thought
OK. He's got speed. And speed is good, but he gets bad jumps on balls which makes him an average CFer at best - and that's because of his speed. He also steals bases at a low percentage (not last year, but in his career). Lastly, his arm is horrible. Oh yeah, speed is the first thing that goes with a player. Since his whole game is based on speed, when a tiny bit goes, and it will soon, so does a lot of his ability.
Jeter to the 2 spot does nothing. Jeter might be the best leadoff hitter in baseball right now. I don't understand why people have this conception that the 2 spot is Jeter's best spot. Is it so that he can bunt the man over in the 1st inning of games even though he is way too good of a hitter to do that? Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than a #2 hitter.
So is Tony Womack coming off the bench, like Roberts did in 2004. With Pierre, he has to get on base to change the game with his speed, and he doesn't do that often enough. Plus, as I have already stated, he doesn't steal bases at a great percentage.
He's not very young at all. Especially for a player whose entire game is based on speed. In fact, he is getting old for a player who is just a speedster.
Agreed.
He's not a great defensive CFer. He's not a good defensive CFer. Just because a player has speed does not make him a great defensive CFer. See Womack, Tony. (although he is better than him - just an example that speed does not mean he'll be great in CF).
Knows what it takes to win? Whatever, this is ridiculous. Because he was on a team that won a WS? On that note, lets get back Shane Spencer because he also knows what it takes to win.
dabomb2045
11-29-05, 11:21 PM
I cant believe I'm saying this, because I cant stand Crosby and think he is quite bad....but I'd rather see Crosby out there in CF on Opening Day then Pierre
Wait, what about Shane Spencer?
Kulish29
11-29-05, 11:29 PM
My eyes, MY EYES!
He's a below average offensive and defensive player. His name is actually French for Tony Womack. If the Yanks want more bad players, who Joe will undoubtedly overplay, this would be the move to make.
I don't think they want any more bad players.
MiamiKat
11-29-05, 11:36 PM
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/6550.jpg
Magic Juan says, "Make peace, not war!"This is the only Magic Juan I want anywhere near the Yankees...
Don Magic Juan.
http://www.mtv.com/shared/media/news/images/d/Don_Magic_Juan/sq-don-magic-juan-chicago-intvw-mtv.jpg
dabomb2045
11-29-05, 11:37 PM
He's a below average offensive and defensive player. His name is actually French for Tony Womack. If the Yanks want more bad players, who Joe will undoubtedly overplay, this would be the move to make.
I don't think they want any more bad players.
:lol: couldnt agree more
just-blaze
11-30-05, 12:16 AM
Can you explain a more logical option? I hope it isn't Bubba "I'll run into Gary Sheffield in RCF during the biggest play of the season, and also can't do much of anything else" Crosby...
Well... technically Shef clotheslined lil Bubba on that play so I think that Shef ran into Bubba. That would be like blaming someone to run into a punch.
Biggest play of the season? Maybe the double play groundout in the ninth could have been called the biggest play of the season.(I still love ya ARod)
Our record was so 19-9 in September when Bubba got most of his playing time. So at the very least....he wasnt hurting the team. I think a better RF is more important than a CF at this time.
ZYanksRule
11-30-05, 12:26 AM
I wouldnt mind seeing Pierre either. OK, so dont bat him leadoff. Bat him 9th.
Give them Crosby and a minor leaguer for him.
I think this might be able to work, I really do.
Dannman103
11-30-05, 02:38 AM
im not sure if im mistaken or not, but doesnt pierre only have a year left on his contract? if thats true, I say get him...overall his career average is .305, and he steals bases...and if it doesnt work out, then we can always chase andruw jones or someone else next offseason once pierre's contract is up
rightfielder21
11-30-05, 06:59 AM
im not sure if im mistaken or not, but doesnt pierre only have a year left on his contract? if thats true, I say get him...overall his career average is .305, and he steals bases...and if it doesnt work out, then we can always chase andruw jones or someone else next offseason once pierre's contract is up
What do you give up for the one year rental, of a bad offensive and subpar defensive player?
I wouldnt mind seeing Pierre either. OK, so dont bat him leadoff. Bat him 9th.
Give them Crosby and a minor leaguer for him.
I think this might be able to work, I really do.
No no no no no. This guy is fast. He's speedy quick. He needs to bat leadoff. Plus there's no way they get this Win Method proven winner for Crosby & a minor Leaguer. Cano, Wang, Duncan, Chacon, Hughes, Melky, Jeter (we won't need him to leadoff anymore), Mariano Rivera & 25 million should get him.
Yankeeah
11-30-05, 07:08 AM
im not sure if im mistaken or not, but doesnt pierre only have a year left on his contract? if thats true, I say get him...overall his career average is .305, and he steals bases...and if it doesnt work out, then we can always chase andruw jones or someone else next offseason once pierre's contract is up
Yeah trading away Cano and Wang are a great idea for someone who well only have for a season, and will suck said season
Saxmania
11-30-05, 07:15 AM
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside, I think juan pierre is our best option for CF...
Others have taken your logic to task better than I can on this thread, but for those who disparage using statistics to evaluate players, may I suggest an experiment?
Compose a post as normal, with a clause about how 'you don't care about stats' or 'don't give me a stats-based argument'. Then replace the word 'statistics' or 'stats' with the word 'facts'. Re-read your post. This is how your post will now get read by a large number of people.
Personally, I don't think there's a very good argument for Juan Pierre, but if you believe that there is, then presenting facts in statistical form is by far the best way to convince people, because arbitrary descriptions are infinitely contestible.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Dannman103
11-30-05, 08:41 AM
What do you give up for the one year rental, of a bad offensive and subpar defensive player?
I think calling Pierra a bad offensive player is overstating it just tad, dont you? The guy's career average is .305, hardly bad
BillBuckner
11-30-05, 08:43 AM
I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who are going to throw stats in my face- and thats fine...but statistics aside...
Post of the year. :lol:
effdamets
11-30-05, 08:51 AM
im not sure if im mistaken or not, but doesnt pierre only have a year left on his contract? if thats true, I say get him...overall his career average is .305, and he steals bases...and if it doesnt work out, then we can always chase andruw jones or someone else next offseason once pierre's contract is up
There's a thought....
StatenIslandYankee
11-30-05, 09:12 AM
Sadly, he just might be our best option out there.
This is the 54,327th thread on Pierre. Did we really need this?
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=89984&highlight=Pierre
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=90640&highlight=Pierre
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=86308&highlight=Pierre
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=73849&highlight=Pierre
I thought this trade would have gone through by now. Time to up the offer:
Cano, Wang, Duncan, Chacon, Hughes, Melky, Henn, Jeter, Mariano Rivera, ARod (we still pay his salary) & 45 million for the Super fast, slick fielding base stealing, CF owning, Win Method Poster Boy.
If Cashman doesn't get this ball rolling this morning, I say he should be fired and Billy Connors should be given the GM keys.
effdamets
11-30-05, 09:26 AM
Would anyone trade Melky Cabrera for Pierre?
Or do we like Melky's .211 BA/OBP/SLG numbers too much...?
Would anyone trade Melky Cabrera for Pierre?
Or do we like Melky's .211 BA/OBP/SLG numbers too much...?Are you quoting his numbers from the 4 games he played in the majors? No, I would not trade Melky for Pierre. Melky is on his way up, Pierre is on his way down.
Sadly, he just might be our best option out there.
Bubba is a better option.
effdamets
11-30-05, 10:43 AM
Here was the scouting report going into the 2005 season: (By STATS, Inc)
2004 Season
Coming off an eye-opening season as the fire-starter for the World Series champs, Juan Pierre was paid more attention than ever, both at the plate and on the basepaths. He slumped badly in June, but all in all Pierre managed to turn in another strong season. His consecutive-games streak stands at 335 games and counting.
Hitting
For the third time in the past four years, Pierre banged out 200 hits. It's no accident. Though he could show more patience for a leadoff hitter, his remarkable hand-eye coordination allows him to put almost any ball in play. He is fearless against lefties and doesn't give in against anybody, Randy Johnson included. He saw more hard stuff on the inner half last year, putting a crimp in his slap-and-dash ways. So Pierre eventually adjusted and started pulling more pitches between the first and second basemen. Always thinking, he's not afraid to be innovative at the plate. He didn't bunt as much in the first half, but started to reclaim that part of his repertoire after the break.
Baserunning & Defense
Largely due to the adjustments by opposing pitchers, Pierre didn't come close to defending his first NL stolen-base crown. He was caught a career-high 24 times in 69 attempts and saw his success rate drop from 76 to 65 percent. His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie.
*******************************
I don't know why everyone is taking his ONE off year and using it to prove his 'decline'. Should he have another off year, then a case can be made.
That scouting report tells me nothing about him being good.
ryanthe13th
11-30-05, 10:50 AM
Juan Pierre has a belly full of guts.
swityak11
11-30-05, 10:57 AM
1. Trade for Juan Pierre
2. ...
3. Profit?
Sounds like a plan!
Yankeeah
11-30-05, 11:00 AM
Would anyone trade Melky Cabrera for Pierre?
Or do we like Melky's .211 BA/OBP/SLG numbers too much...?
That was an absolutly terrible point. Melky has played in 6 games with 19 at-bats. He is on the rise while Pierre is on the decline. If you want Pierre, then ok, it's your opinion. But don't use a dumbass fact like that to support your cause.
NelsonMuntz
11-30-05, 11:01 AM
1. Trade for Juan Pierre
2. ...
3. Profit?
Sounds like a plan!
"I totally understand."
"No you don't, fat ass."
:lol: Excellent South Park reference!
Yankeeah
11-30-05, 11:02 AM
"I totally understand."
"No you don't, fat ass."
:lol: Excellent South Park reference!
South Park reference? As a huge South Park fan, I',m surprised I didnt catch it, which episode?
effdamets
11-30-05, 11:05 AM
That was an absolutly terrible point. Melky has played in 6 games with 19 at-bats. He is on the rise while Pierre is on the decline. If you want Pierre, then ok, it's your opinion. But don't use a dumbass fact like that to support your cause.
I think the point was, you wouldn't trade for a guy that has just about averaged 200 hits per season for the last 5 years, for a guy that basically couldn't hit the sidewalk if he fell off the wagon. I used the numbers because everyone is SO enamored with them...
BronxBombers2005
11-30-05, 11:07 AM
Great idea. Ya think the Yankees could get him for Wang, Cano, Duncan, Chacon & Mariano Rivera? More? I do it even if the Yankees have to throw in a few million.
Wait so you would trade Mo, for Pierre??? are you kidding?
Yankeeah
11-30-05, 11:09 AM
I think the point was, you wouldn't trade for a guy that has just about averaged 200 hits per season for the last 5 years, for a guy that basically couldn't hit the sidewalk if he fell off the wagon. I used the numbers because everyone is SO enamored with them...
Pierre's hits are based on his speed, which is the only good thing about his game. We need a defensive centerfielder, something Pierre isn't even close to. Melky wasn't ready, thats why his numbers stunk, not because he is a bad player.
Wait so you would trade Mo, for Pierre??? are you kidding?
No he's not. He's that stupid.
Wait so you would trade Mo, for Pierre??? are you kidding?
In a heartbeat. Mo is old and not fast.
Pierre is fast. He's super fast. He's the definition of Win Method.
In a heartbeat. Mo is old and not fast.
Pierre is fast. He's super fast. He's the definition of Win Method.
I think you're giving too much away in that deal. I'd rather try to see if the Marlins would take A-fraud.
I think you're giving too much away in that deal. I'd rather try to see if the Marlins would take A-fraud.
If you'll be so kind as to look back a little in this Thread you will see that I have included ARod in the deal.
(Also, ixnay on the raudfray, there might be arlinMay execs checking out this Thread)
If you'll be so kind as to look back a little in this Thread you will see that I have included ARod in the deal.
(Also, ixnay on the raudfray, there might be arlinMay execs checking out this Thread)
Oops! Ok yea um, say how bout that A-rod huh? Wow MVP!
Oops! Ok yea um, say how bout that A-rod huh? Wow MVP!
Those guys would help the Marlins. Especially given the Yankees will pay their salaries.
You got to give up a lot to get a speedster like Juan Pierre.
Those guys would help the Marlins. Especially given the Yankees will pay their salaries.
You got to give up a lot to get a speedster like Juan Pierre.
Exactly. Please Cashman make this happen!
Exactly. Please Cashman make this happen!
I'll tell you what... If some other team comes in a overwhelms the Marlins for Pierre and the Yankees miss out AGAIN... I'm gonna be really ticked off.
swityak11
11-30-05, 11:44 AM
South Park reference? As a huge South Park fan, I',m surprised I didnt catch it, which episode?The underpants gnomes episode quite a few years back. Their 3 phase business plan was...
1. Collect underpants
2. ?
3. Profit!
Anyways this has nothing to do with Juan Pierre so... Pierre stinks!
Stupid Flanders
11-30-05, 11:54 AM
These point by point responses give me a headache. A headache that could be driven away by the Yankees trading for Mr. Juan Pierre.Mine would because I might blow my fricken brains out.
apolansk
11-30-05, 11:59 AM
I thought this trade would have gone through by now. Time to up the offer:
Cano, Wang, Duncan, Chacon, Hughes, Melky, Henn, Jeter, Mariano Rivera, ARod (we still pay his salary) & 45 million for the Super fast, slick fielding base stealing, CF owning, Win Method Poster Boy.
If Cashman doesn't get this ball rolling this morning, I say he should be fired and Billy Connors should be given the GM keys.
MORE MORE MORE.
You forgot to add Matsui, Sheffield, and a sign and trade of Giles and Farnsworth. I'm sure you'll fix this mistake.
rightfielder21
11-30-05, 12:14 PM
I used the numbers because everyone is SO enamored with them...
You lack something called "perspective"… Did you really think that posting a stat based on 19 at bats was going to help your case?
effdamets
11-30-05, 12:27 PM
You lack something called "perspective"… Did you really think that posting a stat based on 19 at bats was going to help your case?
No. I had to use an extreme. I don't need to support my case to anyone, because what some people have to learn about baseball, I've forgotten, 20 years ago.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 12:28 PM
No. I had to use an extreme. I don't need to support my case to anyone, because what some people have to learn about baseball, I've forgotten, 20 years ago.
You seem to have forgotten an awful lot.
effdamets
11-30-05, 12:29 PM
You seem to have forgotten an awful lot.
Only as much as you need to learn....
TEPLimey
11-30-05, 12:31 PM
Reasons to get Juan Pierre:
1) He's playoff tested
2) He has electric stuff
3) He has a belly full of guts
4) He's a "warrior"
Reasons not to get Juan Pierre:
1) He's not very good at the plate or in the field
He also has speed and as we all know, speed = championships.
PaulieIsAwesome
11-30-05, 12:39 PM
Reasons to get Juan Pierre:
1) He's playoff tested
2) He has electric stuff
3) He has a belly full of guts
4) He's a "warrior"
Reasons not to get Juan Pierre:
1) He's not very good at the plate or in the field
This is the greatest post ever.
Snatch Catch
11-30-05, 12:43 PM
Can someone who does business on the other side of the law arrange a hit on Pierre so we can put all the foolishness of wanting him to come here, regardless of price, to rest?
Yankeeah
11-30-05, 12:45 PM
Reasons to get Juan Pierre:
1) He's playoff tested
2) He has electric stuff
3) He has a belly full of guts
4) He's a "warrior"
Reasons not to get Juan Pierre:
1) He's not very good at the plate or in the field
Hahahahah, classic. Best post in the thread.
He also has speed and as we all know, speed = championships.
So if
Speed = championship
And we all know
pitching = championship
Then
Speed + pitching = 2 championships
Ergo
Juan Pierre = Bad
Hahahahah, classic. Best post in the thread.
So if
Speed = championship
And we all know
pitching = championship
Then
Speed + pitching = 2 championships
Ergo
Juan Pierre = Bad
Pretty much, except:
Ergo
Juan Pierre = Phat
LongLiveBernie51!
11-30-05, 12:50 PM
You've convinced me....our entire starting lineup, bullpen and anyone we happen to sign this year for Juan Pierre....or do you think we should offer more? Perhaps we could include the coaching staff as well. Joe Torre would love coaching the Florida Yankees...err I mean Marlins.
Yankeeah
11-30-05, 12:51 PM
Pretty much, except:
Ergo
Juan Pierre = Phat
Ergo
Juan Pierre = http://www.centreprice.com/images/music/bmg/74321431602.jpg
Wang's Groundballs
11-30-05, 12:52 PM
I've forgotten, 20 years ago.
Well, based on your posts, that much is clear.
NelsonMuntz
11-30-05, 12:55 PM
The underpants gnomes episode quite a few years back. Their 3 phase business plan was...
1. Collect underpants
2. ?
3. Profit!
Anyways this has nothing to do with Juan Pierre so... Pierre stinks!
The main plot of that episode is that a Starbucks (called Harbucks in the episode) was moving in right next door to the coffee shop owned by Tweak's Dad. So Mr. Tweak uses the boys to convince the town to pass a law banning Harbucks from moving in.
Ergo
Juan Pierre = http://www.centreprice.com/images/music/bmg/74321431602.jpg:lol: :lol: :lol:
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 01:04 PM
Only as much as you need to learn....
And yet, you've demonstrated absolutely no baseball knowledge in any of your posts. C'mon, stop holding out on us!
yanksphan
11-30-05, 01:08 PM
Can someone who does business on the other side of the law arrange a hit on Pierre so we can put all the foolishness of wanting him to come here, regardless of price, to rest?
Shall we fire up the van?
Yankeeah
11-30-05, 01:10 PM
The main plot of that episode is that a Starbucks (called Harbucks in the episode) was moving in right next door to the coffee shop owned by Tweak's Dad. So Mr. Tweak uses the boys to convince the town to pass a law banning Harbucks from moving in.
Duh, how could I forget, it was on the other day. Thanks for the reminder.
AMYanks
11-30-05, 02:36 PM
Would anyone trade Melky Cabrera for Pierre?
Or do we like Melky's .211 BA/OBP/SLG numbers too much...?
Priceless post. I actually started hurting, I was laughing so hard.
rightfielder21
11-30-05, 03:05 PM
Am I the only one amazed that effdamets managed to remain relatively unnoticed since 2002…
If only he were around for the WIN METHOD, that guy may have gotten some love…
YankeePride1967
11-30-05, 05:50 PM
Usually, when I look for a lead-off hitter, I want a guy that gets on base a lot and steals bases with a high percentage of accuracy. Pierre does neither.
YankeePride1967
11-30-05, 05:55 PM
Can someone who does business on the other side of the law arrange a hit on Pierre so we can put all the foolishness of wanting him to come here, regardless of price, to rest?
Good God I couldn't agree more. I have no idea what people's fascination with a guy that has a bad OBP and gets thrown out stealing too much. Not to mention he is a below average fielder.
cuban_yanksfan
11-30-05, 06:04 PM
I give up! Im tired of telling people how ineffective Pierre will be for our team! So trade every damn prospect we have for him, then sign him to a $27 billion contract for 29 years!
Don't stop there! unretire Roger's number so Juan can wear #9! Rename it Juan Pierre stadium and lets start carving a plaque for him in monument park!
Just so long as dont have to read another word about bringing in Pierre!
Aaaaaaaahhhhhh!
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 06:11 PM
Usually, when I look for a lead-off hitter, I want a guy that gets on base a lot and steals bases with a high percentage of accuracy. Pierre does neither.
He stole bases at a clip of 77% this year and took about 57, thats still pretty good...
Jglaubman
11-30-05, 06:12 PM
I found this thread from November last year. Someone asked whether it would be better to get Beltran then, or wait and get Pierre in 2006
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=74747
Getting a guy like Juan Pierre would be nice; I can't remember the last time the Yanks really had a "classic" leadoff hitter. Nice thinking.
We'd get a lot more bang for our buck with Pierre than Beltran
having Juan Pierre would be sweet.
Pierre would be a great pick up
I'd be very much in favor of passing on Beltran and waiting a year for someone like Pierre in 06
he is the definition of a "small-ball" player
ESPECIALLY if we can scoop up Pierre. He's a better FIT, in my opinion.
Wow, what a difference a year makes. :lol::lol::lol:
YankeePride1967
11-30-05, 06:13 PM
He stole bases at a clip of 77% this year and took about 57, thats still pretty good...
And yet he was still benched later in the year. He had an above average percentage wise year this year, but he still doesn't get on enough, his past is that his success rate is in the high 60's, horrible. If we sign him, we still don't have a lead-off hitter which is why those that want to sign him are looking for. A .326 OBP is horrible.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 06:15 PM
And yet he was still benched later in the year. He had an above average percentage wise year this year, but he still doesn't get on enough, his past is that his success rate is in the high 60's, horrible. If we sign him, we still don't have a lead-off hitter which is why those that want to sign him are looking for. A .326 OBP is horrible.
I'm not doubting he is a poor offensive player, but he still steals bases pretty successfully...
YankeePride1967
11-30-05, 06:16 PM
I'm not doubting he is a poor offensive player, but he still steals bases pretty successfully...
He did so in 2005, but not in the years proceeding.
Ivoted4Kodos
11-30-05, 06:17 PM
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/fla/news/fla_news.jsp?ymd=20031028&content_id=595940&vkey=news_fla&fext=.jsp
If you scroll down a bit, you can see that Pierre is not only a gutsy, super-awesomely fast warrior, but he's also a talented musician.
The man can do it all. I bet he even solves mysteries on the side.
cuban_yanksfan
11-30-05, 06:18 PM
He stole bases at a clip of 77% this year and took about 57, thats still pretty good...
He's reckless, a lot of those steals are against the mets and Piazza. My sister could have stolen second driving a snow plow against Piazza.
A lot of his succesful steals were also going into 3rd base. So his percentage as far as stealing 2nd base (the only really imortant base) is a little skewed.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 06:19 PM
He did so in 2005, but not in the years proceeding.
Preceding? 2004 was bad but the years before that are pretty good. He is a career 73% basestealer which isn't too bad considering he steals about 50 a year...
longtimeyankeefan
11-30-05, 06:27 PM
The guy can't even wear his hat correctly.
NO THANKS.
JeffWeaverFan
11-30-05, 07:31 PM
http://www.netshrine.com/2003Marlins.html
rightfielder21
11-30-05, 07:53 PM
I found this thread from November last year. Someone asked whether it would be better to get Beltran then, or wait and get Pierre in 2006
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=74747
Wow, what a difference a year makes. :lol::lol::lol:
Would you mind posting the posters who made those statements... Thanks...
Johnny O
11-30-05, 08:13 PM
I'm now anxiously waiting for the "How can we pry Darrin Erstad from the Angels?" thread.
I'm now anxiously waiting for the "How can we pry Darrin Erstad from the Angels?" thread.Darin Erstad is so underrated.
YankeePride1967
11-30-05, 08:16 PM
Preceding? 2004 was bad but the years before that are pretty good. He is a career 73% basestealer which isn't too bad considering he steals about 50 a year...
Regardless of the number of successful steals, the percentage is the key, and in fact a 73% success rate, which isn't good at any level of attempts is more noticeable as the attempts increase. Hence too many outs.
Johnny O
11-30-05, 08:22 PM
Darin Erstad is so underrated.
LOL - It's all about intangibles, and you can tell that guy just "gets" it, .700 OPS be damned!
AMYanks
11-30-05, 08:24 PM
Darin Erstad's intangibles and grit, PLUS Juan Pierre's speed and craftiness?
I might have to change myself.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 08:26 PM
Darin Erstad's intangibles and grit, PLUS Juan Pierre's speed and craftiness?
I might have to change myself.
We should also see about getting Chone Figgins' versatility and David Eckstein's determination.
AMYanks
11-30-05, 08:29 PM
We should also see about getting Chone Figgins' versatility and David Eckstein's determination.
Can you say... Dynasty?
!!!
TEPLimey
11-30-05, 08:44 PM
Darin Erstad is so underrated.
Darin Erstad epitomizes baseball. Ask Joe Morgan, he'll tell you.
Ivoted4Kodos
11-30-05, 08:44 PM
We should also see about getting Chone Figgins' versatility and David Eckstein's determination.
Do they "know how to win"?
TEPLimey
11-30-05, 08:59 PM
Darren Erstad epitomizes baseball. Ask Joe Morgan, he'll tell you.
(Yes I'm quoting myself to begin with). But to emphasize why we need Erstad, here is a fine analysis of Jim Rome's comment (in bold) from http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_firejoemorgan_archive.html
And there is no single guy who epitomizes the toughness of the Angels more than first baseman Darin Erstad.
Here we go.
He's not the best player.
You're right. He's not the best player. He hit seven home runs all year. Seven. 609 AB. Seven home runs. From first base.
He's not even the most valuable player on that team.
Good. Vlad Guerrero is. Darin Erstad OBPed .325 and slugged .371. All year.
But no one means more to the Angels than Erstad.
You are an unprecedented moron. Actually, I take that back. Many, many people have said this about Darin Erstad. What is it about this guy that makes sports media figures absolutely adore him? Is it his football background? He was a punter. He looks very rugged, I'll give you that.
This guy is the ultimate red ass.
The following players had a higher OPS than Darin Erstad this year:
Russ Adams
Craig Counsell
Greg Zaun
Every Major League First Baseman
That's right: in the major leagues, no regular first baseman had a lower OPS than Darin Erstad.
He is the ultimate gamer and competitor. A guy that will do absolutely anything and everything to win a ball game. He grinds every single at bat like it's the most important at bat of his whole career.
Of major league first basemen, Erstad finished 24th in walks, with 47.
The guy is a freaking nut. He practically left his knee ligaments out near second base sliding into the bag last night.
If Manny Ramirez hurts his knee with that horrible sliding technique, he's the laughingstock of sports media the next day.
The guy is a great tone setter.
He better set a damn good tone for $8.25 million in 2005. By the way, his OPS+ was 89 this year.
No one, I mean no one on that team is going to go soft with Ersty around.
I'm glad you're on a cute-nickname-basis with Darin Erstad. Hope that goes well for you.
And I'm not talking about that football mentality that he brings to the diamond, either.
Yes, you are. You love Darin Erstad, and the reason why is because he used to play football and he looks tough. That's it.
He's athletic.
He did steal an incredible 10 bases this year.
He's a flat-out whiz with the leather at first base. There aren't five guys in the bigs who make that game-ending play last night.
Doug Mientkiewicz
Derrek Lee
J.T. Snow
John Olerud
Travis Lee
Todd Helton
Darin Erstad, maniac.
Jim Rome, f*cktard.
Jglaubman
11-30-05, 08:59 PM
Would you mind posting the posters who made those statements... Thanks...
JdKush10, El Moose, nnysiny, Kulish29, The Dynasty
I think that's all
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 10:29 PM
Regardless of the number of successful steals, the percentage is the key, and in fact a 73% success rate, which isn't good at any level of attempts is more noticeable as the attempts increase. Hence too many outs.
What are you kidding me? Of course the amount of successful steals matters. If someone has a SB% of 70% and steals 20 bases and someone else has the same percentage and steals 50, who would you want on your team assuming their offense and defense is the same? The league average of CS% in the NL last year was 70%, so Pierre was above average (77%), as well as being second in steals (57). Reyes lead with 60...
YankeePride1967
11-30-05, 10:38 PM
What are you kidding me? Of course the amount of successful steals matters. If someone has a SB% of 70% and steals 20 bases and someone else has the same percentage and steals 50, who would you want on your team assuming their offense and defense is the same? The league average of CS% in the NL last year was 70%, so Pierre was above average (77%), as well as being second in steals (57). Reyes lead with 60...
Who would you rather have? Someone that steals 20 of 23 or someone who steals 50 of 85? BTW, I said nothing about the number of successful stealing not mattering, I said the number of CAUGHT stealing is equally important. The point is to get someone with an increased percentage of success not just more steals.
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 10:43 PM
What are you kidding me? Of course the amount of successful steals matters. If someone has a SB% of 70% and steals 20 bases and someone else has the same percentage and steals 50, who would you want on your team assuming their offense and defense is the same?
On the Yankees, I'd want the guy who steals 20. The general breakeven point around baseball is somewhere north of 70%. On a team with the slugging ability of the Yankees, a caught stealing is more costly, because it takes away a higher chance of a run, and a successful steal is less valuable, because it improves the chance of scoring less, due to the number of XBHs our lineup produces. Thus, the guy who steals 20 will hurt the offense less than the guy who steals 50.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 10:57 PM
Who would you rather have? Someone that steals 20 of 23 or someone who steals 50 of 85?
Obviously the former...
BTW, I said nothing about the number of successful stealing not mattering,
Regardless of the number of successful steals
I said the number of CAUGHT stealing is equally important. The point is to get someone with an increased percentage of success not just more steals.
Yes, I know this. But if the SB% is the same, you want the person who steals more bases...
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 11:00 PM
Yes, I know this. But if the SB% is the same, you want the person who steals more bases...
No, I'm afraid this isn't true. As I said in my last point, if a guy is getting caught often enought that he's hurting your offense, wouldn't you tell him to stop stealing bases altogether? Wouldn't you prefer that he had run less? 70% probably hurts offense, and almost certainly does on a top hitting team like the Yankees.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 11:01 PM
On the Yankees, I'd want the guy who steals 20. The general breakeven point around baseball is somewhere north of 70%.
North meaning? I just looked it up for last year in the NL and it was 70%.
On a team with the slugging ability of the Yankees, a caught stealing is more costly, because it takes away a higher chance of a run,
So does not putting yourself into position more often to score on a single. In addition scoring on XBH from 1st isn't always a guarantee, but it is when your on 2nd. Stealing 3rd allows you to score on passed balls, infield singles, and other balls where you couldn't score from second...
and a successful steal is less valuable, because it improves the chance of scoring less, due to the number of XBHs our lineup produces. Thus, the guy who steals 20 will hurt the offense less than the guy who steals 50.
That couldn't be further from the truth...
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 11:06 PM
North meaning? I just looked it up for last year in the NL and it was 70%.
You looked at the average success rate. Not the breakeven point. I'm talking about the level of success where the successful steals outweigh the times caught stealing. Every time you successfully steal, you gain a base. When you get caught, you lose a baserunner, and an out. The second is far, far more costly than the first is valuable.
So does not putting yourself into position more often to score on a single. In addition scoring on XBH from 1st isn't always a guarantee, but it is when your on 2nd. Stealing 3rd allows you to score on passed balls, infield singles, and other balls where you couldn't score from second...
I understand that a stolen base has value. But it has less value to a team that is adept at driving baserunners in from first base. Thats why the breakeven point has risen since the 80s. With more XB power in the league, one base has less value, AND outs and baserunners are worth more.
That couldn't be further from the truth...
Stealing bases is a risk. Even if they have the same percentage of successful steals, but the baserunner is more willing to steal a base (i.e. the number of attempts is relatively high), that hurts an offense that can otherwise manufacture runs via XBH more than someone with the same SB% but makes fewer attempts. It's a matter of more wasted outs.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 11:11 PM
You looked at the average success rate. Not the breakeven point. I'm talking about the level of success where the successful steals outweigh the times caught stealing. Every time you successfully steal, you gain a base. When you get caught, you lose a baserunner, and an out. The second is far, far more costly than the first is valuable.
I agree, but not if your successful around 75%-80%...
I understand that a stolen base has value. But it has less value to a team that is adept at driving baserunners in from first base. Thats why the breakeven point has risen since the 80s. With more XB power in the league, one base has less value, AND outs and baserunners are worth more.
Runners don't always score from first on XBHs. I would love to see how many Yankees scored from first on doubles and how many did not...
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 11:13 PM
Stealing bases is a risk. Even if they have the same percentage of successful steals, but the baserunner is more willing to steal a base (i.e. the number of attempts is relatively high), that hurts an offense that can otherwise manufacture runs via XBH more than someone with the same SB% but makes fewer attempts. It's a matter of more wasted outs.
Of course its a risk. But having someone who can get themselves into scoring position (75-80% of the time) on a single when your down by one run is very valuable...
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 11:14 PM
I agree, but not if your successful around 75%-80%...
You said 70%. Thats probably a net negative. 80% would be a positive rate, on this team.
Runners don't always score from first on XBHs. I would love to see how many Yankees scored from first on doubles and how many did not...
This isn't about absolutes. Its about percentages. You're reducing your chance of scoring runs more than you're improving them by stealing 7 out of 10 on a team that hits this well.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 11:20 PM
You said 70%. Thats probably a net negative. 80% would be a positive rate, on this team.
No, I said 70% was the league average. Pierre stole 77% this year
Run through the 24 base/out states and you find that a baserunner must be successful apx. 71-72% of the time to simply breakeven. For a baserunner to have expected positive value, he must run at a clip higher than that; to be safely successful, we are talking at a rate near 80%.
http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/050221.html
This isn't about absolutes. Its about percentages. You're reducing your chance of scoring runs more than you're improving them by stealing 7 out of 10 on a team that hits this well.
Exactly, you can't assume runners score of XBHs either, especially on the Yankees...
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 11:26 PM
No, I said 70% was the league average. Pierre stole 77% this year
If someone has a SB% of 70% and steals 20 bases and someone else has the same percentage and steals 50, who would you want on your team assuming their offense and defense is the same?
:P
Run through the 24 base/out states and you find that a baserunner must be successful apx. 71-72% of the time to simply breakeven. For a baserunner to have expected positive value, he must run at a clip higher than that; to be safely successful, we are talking at a rate near 80%.
http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/050221.html (http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/050221.html)
Exactly. And those numbers would be higher on a team like the Yankees. So I don't want Pierre.
Exactly, you can't assume runners score of XBHs either, especially on the Yankees...
They're going to score more often on an extra base hit if they're still on base.
Of course its a risk. But having someone who can get themselves into scoring position (75-80% of the time) on a single when your down by one run is very valuable...
The point is that steals create an unnecessary risk of outs; a waste of potential runs. Managers should seek to minimize the overall level of risk, unless the situation warrants that a steal (or bunt) can yield a greater reward for the team than the level of risk.
I Love Wang is explaining how the level of baserunning risk aversion should higher for teams that have a greater degree of slugging power, than for teams that have lower slugging power.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 11:37 PM
:P
There are certain intangibles that go along with this. I'd still take the runner with the higher number of stolen bases. Baseball can't be defined to numbers alone, situations matter. Baseball is not always quantifiable...
Exactly. And those numbers would be higher on a team like the Yankees. So I don't want Pierre.
The breakeven is 71%, a team like the Yankees would be 72-73. Pierre would still be over the mark. I don't want Pierre either but its not because I don't like the way he takes bases...
They're going to score more often on an extra base hit if they're still on base.
Of course. But they also aren't going to score when they are stranded at 3rd...
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 11:46 PM
There are certain intangibles that go along with this. I'd still take the runner with the higher number of stolen bases. Baseball can't be defined to numbers alone, situations matter. Baseball is not always quantifiable...
You'd rather have the guy who is going to decrease run scoring?
The breakeven is 71%, a team like the Yankees would be 72-73. Pierre would still be over the mark. I don't want Pierre either but its not because I don't like the way he takes bases...
I'll bet that the difference would be more significant.
Of course. But they also aren't going to score when they are stranded at 3rd...
When we're talking about the kind of people who steal bases, they usually can also score from first on a double. Unless you're advocating having Giambi steal more bases.
yankees76
11-30-05, 11:48 PM
I would rather bat Giambi leadoff than bat Pierre leadoff. Giambi will get 150 more ABs over which to demonstrate his .400 OBP, although he will lose approximately 1/5 of his opportunities to drive runners in front of him in (when he bats leadoff every 1st inning).
Basically, I don't really think this is a good idea, but I think signing Pierre would be a MUCH WORSE idea.
Stupid Flanders
11-30-05, 11:50 PM
I found this thread from November last year. Someone asked whether it would be better to get Beltran then, or wait and get Pierre in 2006
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=74747
Wow, what a difference a year makes. :lol::lol::lol:I credit myself for educating some of those... uh, people in the ensuing time
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 11:52 PM
You'd rather have the guy who is going to decrease run scoring?
If overall scoring declines, but wins incline, I'd take it in a heartbeat...
I'll bet that the difference would be more significant.
Figure it out, I don't think it is much more...
When we're talking about the kind of people who steal bases, they usually can also score from first on a double. Unless you're advocating having Giambi steal more bases.
I'm talking about the value of having team members who can steal bases at a high rate (75%-80%). On a team that has many slow players like the Yankees, speed would help a ton...
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 11:53 PM
If overall scoring declines, but wins incline, I'd take it in a heartbeat...
Me too. But if scoring declines, wins will probably do the same. In baseball, wins are based on who scores the most.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 11:56 PM
Me too. But if scoring declines, wins will probably do the same. In baseball, wins are based on who scores the most.
Cute. But if the Yankees win a game 15-4, and lose a game 2-1 because they couldn't get there runner in scoring position, I'd rather win by less in the first game...
I Love Wang
11-30-05, 11:57 PM
Cute. But if the Yankees win a game 15-4, and lose a game 2-1 because they couldn't get there runner in scoring position, I'd rather win by less in the first game...
Unfortunately, you can't build a team that plans for every given situation. So what you have to do is try to maximize the ratio of runs scored to runs allowed. Having guys get thrown out on the bases a lot is not the way to do that.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-30-05, 11:59 PM
Unfortunately, you can't build a team that plans for every given situation.
With a 200+ million dollar payroll you can. Having a guy who steals bases above the breakeven point is actually beneficial...
With a 200+ million dollar payroll you can. Having a guy who steals bases above the breakeven point is actually beneficial...
Where is this going? If we need someone to steal a base in a close and late situation (which you refer to), we have Tony Womack keeping his speedy ass warm on the bench.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-01-05, 12:08 AM
Where is this going? If we need someone to steal a base in a close and late situation (which you refer to), we have Tony Womack keeping his speedy ass warm on the bench.
I already explained. Having a guy who steals bases above the breakeven point is very beneficial...
27IsNext
12-01-05, 12:09 AM
There are people who seriously want this guy?
I think I'm going to cry. :(
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-01-05, 12:12 AM
I'm not advocating to get Pierre but just that he has been an effective basestealer for the majority of his career...
I already explained. Having a guy who steals bases above the breakeven point is very beneficial...
Don't we already have that? Womack has a SB% of 84%, should the need arise. Or are you saying it's necessary to have a position player (namely a newly acquired CF) that has a high SB%?
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-01-05, 12:21 AM
Don't we already have that? Womack has a SB% of 84%, should the need arise.
Womack is horrible...
Or are you saying it's necessary to have a position player (namely a newly acquired CF) that has a high SB%?
It would be nice, not necessary...
yankees76
12-01-05, 12:54 AM
If we need an SB, trade for Gathwright, don't get Juan Pierre. Higher upside.
These aren't your 70s baseball teams anymore. If SBs were really that important, more teams would run. With the way the Yankees are constructed, picking your teeth at 1B waiting for Giambi to rip one is a much better use of your time than getting thrown out at second.
don't waste prospects on Gathright or Pierre. They can't hit, or get on base much. Bubba is already here and is a better fielder.
I Love Wang
12-01-05, 12:58 AM
don't waste prospects on Gathright or Pierre. They can't hit, or get on base much. Bubba is already here and is a better fielder.
Gathright actually walked quite a bit in the minors, and posted an OBP better than .380 in every stop, while topping .400 a number of times. I think he could turn out to be a good player.
Gathright actually walked quite a bit in the minors, and posted an OBP better than .380 in every stop, while topping .400 a number of times. I think he could turn out to be a good player.
He can't hit the ball out of the infield. Screw him, I don't want him costing us kids or blocking our kids.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-01-05, 01:18 AM
If we need an SB, trade for Gathwright, don't get Juan Pierre. Higher upside.
These aren't your 70s baseball teams anymore. If SBs were really that important, more teams would run. With the way the Yankees are constructed, picking your teeth at 1B waiting for Giambi to rip one is a much better use of your time than getting thrown out at second.
I've been advocating Gathright for quite some time now...
rightfielder21
12-01-05, 07:46 AM
JdKush10, El Moose, nnysiny, Kulish29, The Dynasty
I think that's all
Have any of them changed thier positions? I doubt it...
Johnny O
12-01-05, 05:25 PM
I already explained. Having a guy who steals bases above the breakeven point is very beneficial...
It absolutely is, but that guy has to be a bench player be optimal to the roster and be able to take true advantage of the situation when the team needs one run. I understand that you're not advocating Pierre, who would suck the life out of the top of the order & cost the Yanks a body or two, but it would have to be a cheap player who could also have value as a defensive replacement. Womack is that guy, fortunately or unfortunately. He's under contract, has little trade value and can play some (shoddy) defense if absolutely necessary. Mr. # 25.
jimmykey2
12-01-05, 06:49 PM
It absolutely is, but that guy has to be a bench player be optimal to the roster and be able to take true advantage of the situation when the team needs one run. I understand that you're not advocating Pierre, who would suck the life out of the top of the order & cost the Yanks a body or two, but it would have to be a cheap player who could also have value as a defensive replacement. Womack is that guy, fortunately or unfortunately. He's under contract, has little trade value and can play some (shoddy) defense if absolutely necessary. Mr. # 25.
Please don't compare Pierre and Womack. If you look at Womack's career OBP, you realize the Yankees were out of their minds to sign him. Juan Pierre's career BA and OBP are equal to Johnny Damon's numbers. Just pointing to age as a guarantee for declining speed and production is idiotic. IMO, the only argument you can have against adding him is what it would cost. Pierre is still at the beginning of his prime and I don't think the Yanks would need to give him a 5 year extension.
YankeePride1967
12-01-05, 07:27 PM
Obviously the former...
Yes, I know this. But if the SB% is the same, you want the person who steals more bases...
I realize that you were limiting your argument to speed, but overall JP is not a player I'd want on the Yanks. While 73% (career) is not horrible, it isn't great either. And his OBP to me is the deal-breaker.
Johnny O
12-01-05, 07:52 PM
Please don't compare Pierre and Womack. If you look at Womack's career OBP, you realize the Yankees were out of their minds to sign him. Juan Pierre's career BA and OBP are equal to Johnny Damon's numbers. Just pointing to age as a guarantee for declining speed and production is idiotic. IMO, the only argument you can have against adding him is what it would cost. Pierre is still at the beginning of his prime and I don't think the Yanks would need to give him a 5 year extension.
I think you misunderstood my post, I wasn't comapring Pierre & Womack. I was saying if you need speed for a specific situation, that speed has to come off the bench. And we have that guy, as horrible as an everyday player as he is, signed to a contract. For example, yanks down by 1 in the 9th, Giambi leads off with BB, if Pierre is the starting CFer so he can't PR for slow Jay - that is when you need the speed.
And I specifically said that Pierre would cost the Yanks, and also added that he sucks. I'm no fan of Damon, but he is much better than Pierre - comparing those two is what's unfair. And I want neither one.
AMYanks
12-01-05, 08:50 PM
IMO, the only argument you can have against adding him is what it would cost.
And that he's a horrible hitter.
And that he's a horrible fielder.
And he has a horrible throwing arm.
Yankeeah
12-01-05, 08:54 PM
Pierre is still at the beginning of his prime
A player whose entire game is based on speed declines around 30, Pierre is 29. He has peaked and will most likely entire his decline (if not already) this season or next
Gringaloca
12-01-05, 09:09 PM
Inside talk around the Marlins is that the Cubs want Pierre, badly. That lush/thick grass @ Wrigley will add to his bunt singles...and once he's on...SB coming up!
Corey Patterson, CF batted .215 with 15 SB and 34 RBI's....hmmmm
Pierre, CF .256 w/ 57 SB and 47 RBI's....
Loria will jump on 'Prospects' to unload salary.
jimmykey2
12-01-05, 10:14 PM
And that he's a horrible hitter.
And that he's a horrible fielder.
And he has a horrible throwing arm.
He's a horrible hitter?
How many horrible hitters do you know of were able to finish top 10 in their league in reaching base? Or BA? Or had 200 hits 3 times in 5 seasons? I realize you don't like him, but let's not get crazy.
Inside talk around the Marlins is that the Cubs want Pierre, badly. That lush/thick grass @ Wrigley will add to his bunt singles...and once he's on...SB coming up!
Corey Patterson, CF batted .215 with 15 SB and 34 RBI's....hmmmm
Pierre, CF .256 w/ 57 SB and 47 RBI's....
Loria will jump on 'Prospects' to unload salary.
Go Cubs.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 03:47 AM
Juan Pierre offered to the Yankees for Henn and Proctor
Link (http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58166.htm)
NYDCYankee
12-02-05, 03:48 AM
Juan Pierre offered to the Yankees for Henn and Proctor
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58166.htm
The last time Juan Pierre played center field in Yankee Stadium, he helped the Marlins win the 2003 World Series.
Now, Pierre could be returning to The Bronx as the Yankees’ center-fielder. The cash-dumping Marlins have asked for lefty Sean Henn and right-handed reliever Scott Proctor for Pierre, and the Yankees didn’t reject the offer.
The article also mentions that Pavano's name was mentioned in a deal for Michaels yesterday.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 03:49 AM
Ya know if it's just for Henn and Proctor, I'd do it and bat him 9th.
NYDCYankee
12-02-05, 03:52 AM
Ya know if it's just for Henn and Proctor, I'd do it and bat him 9th.
Me too. I would like to hold on to our seven starters, and maybe move them later in the year.
King makes a couple good points. This could just be a one year rental with Jones :drool: , Hunter and Cameron all free agents next year.
And the loss of Henn could be softened by the success of Wang and Hughes in 07. Though it would be nice to have Henn's arm coming out of the pen.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 03:54 AM
And with Hunter and Cameron being UFA's in 2007, Juan Pierre could be a nice stop gap player, and he might even play hard knowing he's playing for a contract. Hey at least we are not giving up Hughes, Duncan, Cano, Wang, Chacon, or Small. It could be worse.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 03:55 AM
BTW ... Trust me I do not "like" Pierre, but considering what Florida wants, it's not that bad of an option if the pricetag on Wilkerson is high.
NYDCYankee
12-02-05, 03:58 AM
BTW ... Trust me I do not "like" Pierre, but considering what Florida wants, it's not that bad of an option if the pricetag on Wilkerson is high.
Especially when the Nats are using Wilkerson as tradebait for Javy Vasquez
Juan Pierre offered to the Yankees for Henn and Proctor
Link (http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58166.htm)
I really hate to see Pierre to be our 2006 CF. But this offer make me want to change my mind. A one year rental may be not that bad, considering the options we have.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 04:10 AM
I really hate to see Pierre to be our 2006 CF. But this offer make me want to change my mind. A one year rental may be not that bad, considering the options we have.
That's exactly my logic. He's not "the ideal solution" but for what Florida wants it's a decent bargain and can bridge the gap to the 2007 off season where Cameron, Hunter and Jones are all free agents.
And let's not forget Pierre is not stupid, he knows he's playing for a contract, if you think he won't be playing hard, you're fooling yourself, he won't let that "well he's not that great" tag sit on him in his walk year.
ie: Nomar
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 04:12 AM
Let me preface my comments by stating I don't like Pierre, but if they will accept Henn and Proctor for him then I would do that deal. They can have him for a year and reevaluate after the coming season.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 04:13 AM
Let me preface my comments by stating I don't like Pierre, but if they will accept Henn and Proctor for him then I would do that deal. They can have him for a year and reevaluate after the coming season.
And we will have the leverage with the surplus of CF options
Hunter, Cameron, Jones, and even Pierre (if by some miracle he has a career year).
Now that I look at this, it makes the most sense. I'm glad Brian didn't 'turn it down' but will have an assessment of the options.
NYDCYankee
12-02-05, 04:17 AM
Wow all this positive discussion about Pierre. I am truly shocked. Another thing to note is that we can probably get some draft picks if he signs with somebody else after this year, depending on his stolen base total I would think he would be a "Type A" free agent.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 04:18 AM
But I would bat him 9th.
NYDCYankee
12-02-05, 04:19 AM
Now that I look at this, it makes the most sense. I'm glad Brian didn't 'turn it down' but will have an assessment of the options.
Unless we can get Bradley for the same package, I would like to see Cash wrap this up real quick so that Cash doesn't sign Damon for 6 years.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 04:20 AM
Unless we can get Bradley for the same package, I would like to see Cash wrap this up real quick so that Cash doesn't sign Damon for 6 years.
MB might be more talented but something about him worries me. Just the overall attitude he would bring. But if we can get him for a better package, I'll take it.
jimmyclark
12-02-05, 04:39 AM
I would make the Proctor and Henn trade. Perhaps it being floated will have Boras reduce his contract demands (though I doubt it). See how Pierre does in 2006 and revaluate for 2007.
too bad the front office can't sit tight. I for one would invest half a season in Bubba Crosby. He's so close to getting his first real break to play every day. Something about his September finish with the bat, (small sample, I know) new stance or grip, Donnie-advice whatever, may have turned him around...
It's like Bubba-who? pressure from above is to sign a NAME-player to the CF spot.
flymick24
12-02-05, 04:52 AM
they could get a better player for both henn and proctor
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 04:54 AM
they could get a better player for both henn and proctor
What better player?
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 04:54 AM
they could get a better player for both henn and proctor
Such as?
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 04:55 AM
Let's not let the hatred for Juan Pierre mislead the fact that this is a decent offer.
NYDCYankee
12-02-05, 04:57 AM
they could get a better player for both henn and proctor
who? i'm not so sure this is true, i think we have a tendency of overvaluing our prospects. i think we could get bradley for that perhaps and i think bradley is better then pierre. but i would like to know who better we could get with that package because right now teams know how desperate we are to fill our needs and they are going to be looking to hold us up.
look how every other trade offer centers around Wang and Cano.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 04:57 AM
Let's not overvaluate Proctor please.
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 04:58 AM
I think Milton Bradley is a better player, but I don't think the Yankees are prepared to deal with his issues. His injury history is also a concern, but his anger issues are very troubling and his acquisition will cause some very negative PR issues that I don't think the Yankees want to face at this time.
flymick24
12-02-05, 04:59 AM
Let's not overvaluate Proctor please.
let's not undervalue henn please
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 05:00 AM
let's not undervalue henn please
I'm still waiting on which better players the Yankees can get with that package?
flymick24
12-02-05, 05:02 AM
What better player?
i could see a package of henn, proctor, and maybe melky getting us someone like wilkerson in return.
flymick24
12-02-05, 05:03 AM
I'm still waiting on which better players the Yankees can get with that package?
if "that package" is only going to get us juan pierre, i'd much rather hold onto henn and proctor, in all honesty. their combined value to the team is much greater than what one juan pierre can do for us. either that, or just wait for a better offer to come along, which in all likelihood will happen. as i already said, henn and proctor could easily be parlayed into wilkerson or bradley (although another OF prospect might have to be included.)
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 05:08 AM
i could see a package of henn, proctor, and maybe melky getting us someone like wilkerson in return.
What you nor I don't know is what value the Nationals have for Henn and Proctor? However, if the Marlins are ready to trade Pierre for Henn and Proctor and the Nats don't think much of either player than you have to make the Pierre deal. Next week, I'm sure Cashman will have in-depth discussions with the Dodgers, Marlins, Nats and Phillies to facilitate a trade. If it makes sense for the Yankees then he'll make the best possible deal.
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 05:09 AM
if "that package" is only going to get us juan pierre, i'd much rather hold onto henn and proctor, in all honesty. their combined value to the team is much greater than what one juan pierre can do for us. either that, or just wait for a better offer to come along, which in all likelihood will happen. as i already said, henn and proctor could easily be parlayed into wilkerson or bradley (although another OF prospect might have to be included.)
IMO, Proctor has very little value, I've seen enough of him to determine he's not a good ML pitcher. Henn is still an unknown quality as a ML pitcher, hopefully, the Yankees have a better handle on his true value as a commodity.
NYDCYankee
12-02-05, 05:10 AM
if "that package" is only going to get us juan pierre, i'd much rather hold onto henn and proctor, in all honesty. their combined value to the team is much greater than what one juan pierre can do for us. either that, or just wait for a better offer to come along, which in all likelihood will happen. as i already said, henn and proctor could easily be parlayed into wilkerson or bradley (although another OF prospect might have to be included.)
I don't think those 3 could get us Wilkerson. I think they want a frontline pitcher to replace Loaiza. I do think Henn and Proctor "could" get us Bradley, and I personally would prefer that. I just don't think the FO will bite on it.
StatenIslandYankee
12-02-05, 05:36 AM
i could see a package of henn, proctor, and maybe melky getting us someone like wilkerson in return.
If you want Wilkerson better be willing to part with Wang.
nyctalopia
12-02-05, 05:37 AM
Pavano for Wilkerson + prospects. Get it done!
nyctalopia
12-02-05, 05:49 AM
if "that package" is only going to get us juan pierre, i'd much rather hold onto henn and proctor, in all honesty. their combined value to the team is much greater than what one juan pierre can do for us. either that, or just wait for a better offer to come along, which in all likelihood will happen. as i already said, henn and proctor could easily be parlayed into wilkerson or bradley (although another OF prospect might have to be included.)
Proctor and Henn will not contribute much in 06 or 07, while ANY half-decent center field will. (Pierre - Crosby) > [(Proctor + Henn) - (Other bullpen options)] if you get what I mean.
dabomb2045
12-02-05, 06:01 AM
Proctor and Henn will not contribute much in 06 or 07, while ANY half-decent center field will. (Pierre - Crosby) > [(Proctor + Henn) - (Other bullpen options)] if you get what I mean.
I dont want Pierre...he is overrated
plus Torre will want to bat Pierre and his .326 OBP leadoff...and move the best leadoff hitter in baseball and his .389 OBP down to the #2 hole
Shaun4013
12-02-05, 06:08 AM
I would do this trade in a second.
ICEBERG18
12-02-05, 06:19 AM
Juan Pierre offered to the Yankees for Henn and Proctor
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58166.htm
The article also mentions that Pavano's name was mentioned in a deal for Michaels yesterday.
"Pierre would give the Yankees speed in center field and the pure leadoff hitter they haven’t had since Chuck Knoblauch left after the 2001 season."
:eek: :barf: :scared: :barf:
I dont want Pierre...he is overrated
plus Torre will want to bat Pierre and his .326 OBP leadoff...and move the best leadoff hitter in baseball and his .389 OBP down to the #2 hole
Bingo
Torre has stated that he wants us to get "faster", play more small ball- even though we were the best offense in baseball last year. Pierre, would be Torres ideal lead off batter- sheeesh.
It's not a lot to give up, but is Pierre really better than Bubba. .320 obp- NO power- not a great defender
NYDCYankee
12-02-05, 06:39 AM
Torre has stated that he wants us to get "faster", play more small ball- even though we were the best offense in baseball last year. Pierre, would be Torres ideal lead off batter- sheeesh.
I wouldn't necessarily call it the best offseason becaue it did not manufacture runs. We had a lot of difficulty scoring in the playoffs hoping we hit 4 solo hrs. Pierre can run, move runners along, put the bat on the ball and bunt. And bunt well. He might be able to jumpstart our offense.
I wouldn't necessarily call it the best offseason becaue it did not manufacture runs. We had a lot of difficulty scoring in the playoffs hoping we hit 4 solo hrs. Pierre can run, move runners along, put the bat on the ball and bunt. And bunt well. He might be able to jumpstart our offense.
Runs count whether thay are "manufactured" or not.
WE had the highest EQA and EQR in the majors. How do we need to be jumpstarted?????? Bunting is fine in the very few cases- late in game when yo're playing for one run- that it has proven to be valuable. Study after study ahs shown that routinely giving up runs vai the bunt ends up costing runs, not creating more
It is unfair to Torre to say that he would do something wrong before he has done it -- so "sheesh" yourself. Torre did not place Womack at the top of the lineup even at the beginning of the season. Joe understands OBP.
Furthermore, in the AL the number 9 hitter can be like a leadoff hitter with one fewer at bat. The number 9 hitter hits in front of Jeter batting first as he would if he batted first and Jeter batted second. The difference is only the number of at bats.
Pierre's .326 OBP was bad last year. The question is in part whether he can go in the other direction next year. (And don't repeat this stuff about him getting slower as he ages; he is still young and has only one year left on his contract.)
But I agree that he has many more negatives than positives about his game. He only looks good compared to little Bubba. My bottom line: I would do this trade only if all other options to lBubba, even signing Damon to a sensible contract, are foreclosed. Pierre, notwithstanding his limits, is clearly an upgrade over Bubba, and Proctor and Henn are expendable.
JavyVazquezIsSick
12-02-05, 07:03 AM
Wow what a disaster it would be if Pierre was acquired....
MTYankee23
12-02-05, 07:07 AM
Pierre would be an ideal 9th hitter. I still have faith in Henn though, so i'm not a complete fan of this deal. If we're really interested in Andruw Jones next offseason, then the best bet would be to rid ourselves of the salary of a certain pitcher and attempt to get a Wilkerson type in return (a guy who could likely play RF, 1B, or DH). I would worry about another team dealing for Jones at the 7/31 deadline and signing him to an extension, but he's a Boras guy I believe, so we know he's going to Free Agency.
Darth_Takeo
12-02-05, 07:08 AM
I would put Henn, Proctor, both carrying a fruitbasket, on a plane to Florida.
ring403
12-02-05, 07:15 AM
I'm no big fan of Pierre, but my concerns are based mainly on the long term implications of signing a player whose game is based on footspeed. If, as the article indicates, he is being looked at as a stopgap, I wouldn't be opposed to aquiring him for the right price. Considering the lack of good CF options at the moment, and the outrageous trade demands that some teams are asking, I would sacrifice Henn if absolutely necessary.
BTW, this is George King talking. I'd wait until I hear this story from another source before giving it alot of weight.
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 07:23 AM
Wow what a disaster it would be if Pierre was acquired....
A disaster would be signing Damon to a 5-6 year contract.
noneckwilliams
12-02-05, 07:24 AM
too bad the front office can't sit tight. I for one would invest half a season in Bubba Crosby. He's so close to getting his first real break to play every day. Something about his September finish with the bat, (small sample, I know) new stance or grip, Donnie-advice whatever, may have turned him around...
It's like Bubba-who? pressure from above is to sign a NAME-player to the CF spot.
The reality is that while Tampa has apparently let Cash operate thus far relatively free from interference, it won't continue forever. IMO if Cash is unable to swing a deal fairly soon then Tampa will go over his head and start talks with Boras about Damon. This would be a tragedy on a variety of levels.
It may not be completely rational on my part (being a fan sometimes has nothing to do with rationality) but this is a decent deal that has the added benefit of keeping Damon out of Pinstripes.
MTYankee23
12-02-05, 07:30 AM
On the bright side, if he produces fairly well in his walk year, he could end up a Type A free agent next year, and his picks would offset the ones we'll inevitably lose going after Jones or Hunter.
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 07:30 AM
The reality is that while Tampa has apparently let Cash operate thus far relatively free from interference, it won't continue forever. IMO if Cash is unable to swing a deal fairly soon then Tampa will go over his head and start talks with Boras about Damon. This would be a tragedy on a variety of levels.
It may not be completely rational on my part (being a fan sometimes has nothing to do with rationality) but this is a decent deal that has the added benefit of keeping Damon out of Pinstripes.
If anybody starts talks with Boras then it's going to be Cashman. One thing we've learned this off-season is that Cashman is the avenue other teams need to travel when dealing with the Yankees.
noneckwilliams
12-02-05, 07:44 AM
If anybody starts talks with Boras then it's going to be Cashman. One thing we've learned this off-season is that Cashman is the avenue other teams need to travel when dealing with the Yankees.
You have much more faith than I do that things have truly changed for the long haul in the Yankeees FO. I don't think Cash wants any part of Damon and would only engage with Boras (re Damon) if forced to do so by Tampa. I believe Cash when he says he'd go into next season with Bubba in CF.
nyyfan23
12-02-05, 07:46 AM
Maybe Cash can work on getting Villone thrown into a potiential deal as well.
goin for 27
12-02-05, 07:51 AM
too bad the front office can't sit tight. I for one would invest half a season in Bubba Crosby. He's so close to getting his first real break to play every day. Something about his September finish with the bat, (small sample, I know) new stance or grip, Donnie-advice whatever, may have turned him around...
It's like Bubba-who? pressure from above is to sign a NAME-player to the CF spot.
No, it is about getting a bona-fide CF'er. Bubba is not that. Never has been, never will be. He is turning 30 for goodness sakes. Bubba was a first round draft pick. EVERY first round draft pick gets a shot.
1998 Dodgers CF - Mondesi .279 .316 .497
1999 Dodgers CF - Devon White .268 .337 .407
2000 Dodgers CF - Todd Hollandsworth .234 .314 .372
2001 Dodgers CF - Marquis Grissom .221 .250 .404
2002 Dodgers CF - Dave Roberts .277 .353 .365
2003 Dodgers CF - Dave Roberts .250 .331 .307
2004 Yankees CF - Bernie Williams .262 .360 .435
2005 Yankees CF - Bernie Williams .249 .321 .367
Bubba was not blocked by Jim Edmonds. He could not crack any of these lineups, because he is not as good as these players, which, if you look at some of these numbers, says it all. Bubba has had plenty of chances. He stinks. He does not hit, he hustles, but is average in CF, and does not run the bases particularly well. We need to fill every position, Bubba is not suddenly going to become a good player.
BeantownYankee
12-02-05, 07:54 AM
You have much more faith than I do that things have truly changed for the long haul in the Yankeees FO. I don't think Cash wants any part of Damon and would only engage with Boras (re Damon) if forced to do so by Tampa. I believe Cash when he says he'd go into next season with Bubba in CF.
After listening to Cash the other day, I also believe that. If Crosby doesn't work out their could be better options available by the trading deadline including Hunter, Cameron, or one of our own prospects. I think he realizes we can't afford anymore long term mistakes or nonflexibility. I think the most we walk away with next week either by signing or trade is a relief pitcher.
Martini6196
12-02-05, 07:56 AM
I'm sorry but I would trade Henn and Proctor for Pierre in a second. He is a free agent after next season so if he doesn't perform well the Yankees don't resign him and they go out and try and get Hunter or Jones on the FA market.
After reading some of the posts it seems as though people think Henn and Proctor are alot better then they really are.
Get this done Cash.
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 07:57 AM
You have much more faith than I do that things have truly changed for the long haul in the Yankeees FO. I don't think Cash wants any part of Damon and would only engage with Boras (re Damon) if forced to do so by Tampa. I believe Cash when he says he'd go into next season with Bubba in CF.
I'm not talking about long term. I'm talking about this off-season and that Cashman has to put together a team that needs to come out of the gate fast next season.
nyctalopia
12-02-05, 08:01 AM
Wow what a disaster it would be if Pierre was acquired....
This coming from the guy whose signature says to acquire Joey Gathright?
Martini6196
12-02-05, 08:01 AM
I'm not talking about long term. I'm talking about this off-season and that Cashman has to put together a team that needs to come out of the gate fast next season.
Don't you guys think that Cashman is saying he is fine with using Crosby in centerfield next year to get teams to lower their trade demands regarding a centerfielder. If Cashman goes out and says to the other GM's "we have no one who can play centerfield next year", those GM's are gonna try and rape the Yankee FO because they know that they are desperate to find a centerfielder. By Cash and Torre saying that they have no problem with Bubba in centerfield next year shows these other teams that they may need to drop their trade demands.
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 08:04 AM
Don't you guys think that Cashman is saying he is fine with using Crosby in centerfield next year to get teams to lower their trade demands regarding a centerfielder. If Cashman goes out and says to the other GM's "we have no one who can play centerfield next year", those GM's are gonna try and rape the Yankee FO because they know that they are desperate to find a centerfielder. By Cash and Torre saying that they have no problem with Bubba in centerfield next year shows these other teams that they may need to drop their trade demands.
I think most of us have already made that assumption about Cashman's negotiating tactics.
ICEBERG18
12-02-05, 08:05 AM
BTW, this is George King talking. I'd wait until I hear this story from another source before giving it alot of weight.
This is just me, but i get the feeling that the Marlins asked for more than just Proctor & Henn. And with George King the one reporting it, i have my doubts.
nyctalopia
12-02-05, 08:06 AM
Don't you guys think that Cashman is saying he is fine with using Crosby in centerfield next year to get teams to lower their trade demands regarding a centerfielder. If Cashman goes out and says to the other GM's "we have no one who can play centerfield next year", those GM's are gonna try and rape the Yankee FO because they know that they are desperate to find a centerfielder. By Cash and Torre saying that they have no problem with Bubba in centerfield next year shows these other teams that they may need to drop their trade demands.
Agreed. The more desperate the Yankees seem for a center fielder, the more other teams will demand in a trade. There is NO WAY IN HELL that the Marlins, even with this fire sale going on, would offer Pierre for Proctor + Henn if they didn't think Cashman would laugh and immediately hang up if they asked for anything more. And yes, Proctor + Henn is a ridiculously low asking price for Pierre.
Pierre is one of the hardest guys to strike out in the league. I believe he has one of the lowest ratios of strikes when he actually swung and missed. I think he would help devastate an opposing pitcher's pitch count. I say we have to do this deal, as much as I believe that Henn and Proctor will be good at some point.
jcan411
12-02-05, 08:10 AM
People are being ridiculous. Proctor sucks. I can't believe we are getting anything for him, and Henn is not even our best pitching prospect.
In return we get a career .305 hitter with a career .355 OBP who is only 28 years old. What the hell do you people want? We can't have AROD at every position. I agree to leadoff with jeter, but crying about trading for a high caliber CF for practically nothing is beyond me.
Plus for a llt hw ilkerson fans, look at the SO. Pierre had only 45 last year and 211 in his whole career.
Wilkerson had 147 last year and has 656 in his career. Plau, he only hit 11 homers to 2 for pierre so niether have any pop. wilkerson is a .256 career hitter with a career .365 OBP, which is only 10 points higher than pierre and much poorer BA. So all thats different is their SO, and pierre is much better defensively....MAKE THE TRADE NOW!!!!!!
goin for 27
12-02-05, 08:12 AM
Pierre is one of the hardest guys to strike out in the league. I believe he has one of the lowest ratios of strikes when he actually swung and missed. I think he would help devastate an opposing pitcher's pitch count. I say we have to do this deal, as much as I believe that Henn and Proctor will be good at some point.
Pierre ranks 89 out of 148 qualified players in pitches per plate appearance.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=exp&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&minpa=0&split=0&season=2005&pos=all&hand=a&league=mlb&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&qual=true
He is not in the top half of MLB. That does not devastate opposing pitchers pitch counts.
goin for 27
12-02-05, 08:14 AM
Don't you guys think that Cashman is saying he is fine with using Crosby in centerfield next year to get teams to lower their trade demands regarding a centerfielder. If Cashman goes out and says to the other GM's "we have no one who can play centerfield next year", those GM's are gonna try and rape the Yankee FO because they know that they are desperate to find a centerfielder. By Cash and Torre saying that they have no problem with Bubba in centerfield next year shows these other teams that they may need to drop their trade demands.
This has to be the case. If not, then I have completely misread Cashman.
jcan411
12-02-05, 08:16 AM
Pierre ranks 89 out of 148 qualified players in pitches per plate appearance.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=exp&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&minpa=0&split=0&season=2005&pos=all&hand=a&league=mlb&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&qual=true
He is not in the top half of MLB. That does not devastate opposing pitchers pitch counts.
He still rarely strikes out and hits well for average. He's a perfect number two hitter fior aour lineup behind jeter.
shantm21
12-02-05, 08:17 AM
Pierre averages 200 hits a year and has a career OBP of .355. He's worth the chance... if he can live up to his averages, he'll wreak havoc.
Problem is with some Yankee fans is that you always want the best and assume it's available. Tell me... who can be had for cheap?
After one bad year, I don't think his skills are in decline. He's entering his prime now.
You want him or Bubba in CF everyday?
Yankee Bulldawg
12-02-05, 08:19 AM
honestly i would rather have Pierre in CF
whalers
12-02-05, 08:21 AM
honestly i would rather have Pierre in CF
If the article in Post is correct I 'd trade those two for Pierre.
nyctalopia
12-02-05, 08:22 AM
as most of you are, i am still incredibly skeptic that the Marlins offered Pierre for Henn and Proctor. but if this really is the deal, Cashman better get it done, STAT.
The Yanks could sure use Pierre's speed but I wouldn't give up a lefty pitching prospect for him at this point.
If I was Cashman, I'd tell the Marlins to go pick Boston's pockets for Monsieur Pierre. Perhaps the Red Swindlers will give back one of the players they kidnapped in the Beckett heist. Heck, the stupid Marlins would probably take Lowell and his fat contract back for Pierre.
Eff the Marlins. Next.
MTYankee23
12-02-05, 08:23 AM
What's funny about this is that weren't the Rockies asking for Henn and Proctor for Chacon last year, and Cashman turned them down, and got a better deal. So are we in effect saying that we value Juan Pierre more than Shawn Chacon?
whalers
12-02-05, 08:24 AM
What's funny about this is that weren't the Rockies asking for Henn and Proctor for Chacon last year, and Cashman turned them down, and got a better deal. So are we in effect saying that we value Juan Pierre more than Shawn Chacon?
I'd value a quality number 3 over a pierre.
I wouldn't even give up Henn for Pierre.
MTYankee23
12-02-05, 08:27 AM
I'd value a quality number 3 over a pierre.
And I believe Cashman would as well. I'm sure there other deals out there to be had. Keep your fingers crossed that Tampa allows Cashman to be patient and wait this offseason out.
Yankees1962
12-02-05, 08:28 AM
And I believe Cashman would as well. I'm sure there other deals out there to be had. Keep your fingers crossed that Tampa allows Cashman to be patient and wait this offseason out.
Is the word "Tampa" a code word for Steinbrenner?
It seems like a lot of fans here would rather take a player coming off a good year (who has average career numbers), over a player coming off a bad year (who has had good career numbers). Just an observation.
Yankee Steve
12-02-05, 08:33 AM
People are being ridiculous. Proctor sucks. I can't believe we are getting anything for him, and Henn is not even our best pitching prospect.
In return we get a career .305 hitter with a career .355 OBP who is only 28 years old. What the hell do you people want? We can't have AROD at every position. I agree to leadoff with jeter, but crying about trading for a high caliber CF for practically nothing is beyond me.
Plus for a llt hw ilkerson fans, look at the SO. Pierre had only 45 last year and 211 in his whole career.
Wilkerson had 147 last year and has 656 in his career. Plau, he only hit 11 homers to 2 for pierre so niether have any pop. wilkerson is a .256 career hitter with a career .365 OBP, which is only 10 points higher than pierre and much poorer BA. So all thats different is their SO, and pierre is much better defensively....MAKE THE TRADE NOW!!!!!!
Absolutely!!!!! this is a no-brainer trade. Proctor is one meatball away from giving up a dinger everytime he comes in. Plus, he has control problems. I hope all of you are not forgetting his walk with the bases juiced to blow that game last summer. Henn has shown nothing at the big league level. He has been OK in the minors, but no one outside of the Yankee organization considers him a star in the making. In fact, I really don't believe the Yanks do either. If we can make this trade, I would do it in a second. Where is the risk? We have Pierre for one year. No long term committment and not a lot of money. If he thrives in 2006, then you can consider resigning him. As the article in the post mentions, however, Andruw Jones, Cameron and Hunter are free agents after next year, so your options are much better. Plus, you give your guys in the minors another year to mature and see what you have at that point. This deal, if as reported, must get done now.
Remember at the time we traded for Chacon he had injury issues, was coming off a horrible year with an ERA of 7.11, so he wasnt as valuable at the time. Meanwhile Pierre is a career .305 hitter with decent OBP and speed who's making less than $4mil, thats valuable in a market thin for Cf's. Even if he doesnt work out he's a free agent after this year and we can give Melky another shot in 2007.
He still rarely strikes out and hits well for average. He's a perfect number two hitter fior aour lineup behind jeter.
He would lead off and Jeter would hit in the #2 hole if he comes to NY.
Absolutely!!!!! this is a no-brainer trade. Proctor is one meatball away from giving up a dinger everytime he comes in. Plus, he has control problems. I hope all of you are not forgetting his walk with the bases juiced to blow that game last summer. Henn has shown nothing at the big league level. He has been OK in the minors, but no one outside of the Yankee organization considers him a star in the making. In fact, I really don't believe the Yanks do either. If we can make this trade, I would do it in a second. Where is the risk? We have Pierre for one year. No long term committment and not a lot of money. If he thrives in 2006, then you can consider resigning him. As the article in the post mentions, however, Andruw Jones, Cameron and Hunter are free agents after next year, so your options are much better. Plus, you give your guys in the minors another year to mature and see what you have at that point. This deal, if as reported, must get done now.
Have to agree... this is our best option as far as what we have to give up (value).
ICEBERG18
12-02-05, 08:37 AM
He would lead off and Jeter would hit in the #2 hole if he comes to NY.
In the words of Whitney Houston, Hell to the naw.
jcan411
12-02-05, 08:38 AM
I'd value a quality number 3 over a pierre.
thats a laughable statment. CF, 2nb, and catcher are three of the least offensive positions in baseball. A quality third starter is much more available than a quality CF. There are few centerfielders that have the value of pierre.
MTYankee23
12-02-05, 08:38 AM
He would lead off and Jeter would hit in the #2 hole if he comes to NY.
He would bat 9th and Jeter would leadoff. Just say no to Low OBP in the leadoff slot.
ReggieBar
12-02-05, 08:41 AM
He would bat 9th and Jeter would leadoff. Just say no to Low OBP in the leadoff slot.
Unless Pierre proves he can get on base, he'd bat ninth here. Maybe 2nd cause he handles the bat well.
Yankee Steve
12-02-05, 08:43 AM
He would bat 9th and Jeter would leadoff. Just say no to Low OBP in the leadoff slot.
He has a career OBP of .355. While not quite DJ, that isn't bad. With Pierre in the leadoff spot and DJ behind him, he will get pitched to. We will be going 1st to 3rd all year.
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.7 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
0