View Full Version : Phillies make pre-emptive strike for Gordon
Quangormo
11-28-05, 03:48 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5116520
The Phillies have emerged as the most aggressive suitor for free-agent reliever Tom Gordon, viewing him as a potential closer if Billy Wagner departs or as a setup man if Wagner returns, FOXSports.com has learned.
Our bullpen problems just may have gotten more urgent.
Panamaniac42
11-28-05, 03:53 PM
We're going to have to get creative with some trades and promote from within to construct this bullpen, because thanks to the Blue Jays' desperation, whoever's left out there is going to be overpaid.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 03:54 PM
i didnt want him back for what he was asking anyway,
38Special
11-28-05, 03:55 PM
Great news about Wagner. This forces the Phillies to go for Gordon, and we get their pick and a supplemental first rounder.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 03:55 PM
Great news about Wagner. This forces the Phillies to go for Gordon, and we get their pick and a supplemental first rounder.
If we offer gordon arbitration, which is exactly what I was thinking
Snatch Catch
11-28-05, 03:55 PM
Great news about Wagner. This forces the Phillies to go for Gordon, and we get their pick and a supplemental first rounder.
Yep.
And we don't have to deal with Torre sturtzing Gordon out there in '07 or '08.
38Special
11-28-05, 03:56 PM
If we offer gordon arbitration, which is exactly what I was thinking
If Wagner and Ryan are going to get 5 year deals, Gordon will at least get a 2 year deal, and more than he would get through arbitration. He would be beyond dumb to accept arbitration
MTYankee23
11-28-05, 03:56 PM
If we offer gordon arbitration, which is exactly what I was thinking
If they're signed before the arbitration deadline, doesn't that not matter?
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 03:56 PM
Yep.
And we don't have to deal with Torre sturtzing Gordon out there in '07 or '08.
which means Mo and Sturtze(the only 2 guys that he will trust) are going to get a hell of a lot of work.
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 03:57 PM
If they're signed before the arbitration deadline, doesn't that not matter?
Yes, you're right.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 03:57 PM
If Wagner and Ryan are going to get 5 year deals, Gordon will at least get a 2 year deal, and more than he would get through arbitration. He would be beyond dumb to accept arbitration
I know I just didnt know if we still got the picks if he was signed before the arbitration deadline
Snatch Catch
11-28-05, 03:58 PM
If Wagner and Ryan are going to get 5 year deals, Gordon will at least get a 2 year deal, and more than he would get through arbitration. He would be beyond dumb to accept arbitration
He's asking for 3 years solid.
38Special
11-28-05, 04:00 PM
If they're signed before the arbitration deadline, doesn't that not matter?
Yep. The decision to offer arbitration is alot easier :)
which means Mo and Sturtze(the only 2 guys that he will trust) are going to get a hell of a lot of work.
They will not be the only signed guys going into spring training. Once again, we need to stop with this baseless accusation of Torre not trusting good relievers and instead throwing all of the load on a choice few guys. Most of the bullpen underperformed, and when that happened, guys like Quantrill, F-Rod, and Stanton did not get to see the ball in the close innings. In addition, because the starting position underperformed for most of the first half, there was alot of situations where the game was tight. If we go into 06 with plenty of good options to go to (many of our AAA options who are ready along with some cheap signees...see my other thread), he will put his trust in them if they perform. Why do you think he put so much trust in Sturtze? It's not like he had any kind of track record...it was because he was dependable for a period of time until he got worn out.
The last thing the FO needs to do is panic and sign Tavarez, Farnsworth, and every other high price guy unless they are good deals and dependable
We're in good shape guys, I promise ;)
MTYankee23
11-28-05, 04:02 PM
Yep. The decision to offer arbitration is alot easier :)
They will not be the only signed guys going into spring training. Once again, we need to stop with this baseless accusation of Torre not trusting good relievers and instead throwing all of the load on a choice few guys. Most of the bullpen underperformed, and when that happened, guys like Quantrill, F-Rod, and Stanton did not get to see the ball in the close innings. In addition, because the starting position underperformed for most of the first half, there was alot of situations where the game was tight. If we go into 06 with plenty of good options to go to (many of our AAA options who are ready along with some cheap signees...see my other thread), he will put his trust in them if they perform. Why do you think he put so much trust in Sturtze? It's not like he had any kind of track record...it was because he was dependable for a period of time until he got worn out.
The last thing the FO needs to do is panic and sign Tavarez, Farnsworth, and every other high price guy unless they are good deals and dependable
We're in good shape guys :)
Brilliant!
Overpaying for Middle-Relievers and back end starters is a bad bad idea.
38Special
11-28-05, 04:02 PM
Brilliant!
Overpaying for Middle-Relievers and back end starters is a bad bad idea.
You mean like Loaiza?
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
MTYankee23
11-28-05, 04:04 PM
You mean like Loaiza?
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Loaiza, Wright, Karsay, Quantrill. Just to name a few. Somedays I even want to include Pavano's name on that list.
AMYanks
11-28-05, 04:06 PM
Hopefully they sign him.
38Special
11-28-05, 04:08 PM
Loaiza, Wright, Karsay, Quantrill. Just to name a few. Somedays I even want to include Pavano's name on that list.
I was more speaking about Oakland giving him 21 million
Yep.
And we don't have to deal with Torre sturtzing Gordon out there in '07 or '08.
Torre will be retired in '08. His contract ends after the '07 season.
MTYankee23
11-28-05, 04:10 PM
I was more speaking about Oakland giving him 21 million
Yah, that is even worse than trading Contreras for him instead of Jeremy Reed. Both bad, but 3 years/21 million? Moneyball my arse.
How is being labeled "as the most aggressive suitor" by Ken Rosenthal qualify as a "pre-emptive strike" by the Phillies?
A very, very misleading thread title.
ICEBERG18
11-28-05, 04:13 PM
How is being labeled "as the most aggressive suitor" by Ken Rosenthal qualify as a "pre-emptive strike" by the Phillies?
A very, very misleading thread title.
I agree.
AMYanks
11-28-05, 04:13 PM
3/$21M to Loiaza seems totally un-Beane. I'm not sure that will go down.
Kulish29
11-28-05, 04:14 PM
Great news about Wagner. This forces the Phillies to go for Gordon, and we get their pick and a supplemental first rounder.
Awesome news. Too bad they didnt finish dead last in the NL East. Would've been nice to have a high pick.
38Special
11-28-05, 04:15 PM
Awesome news. Too bad they didnt finish dead last in the NL East. Would've been nice to have a high pick.
Picks above 16 are protected anyway. The only way we could get a higher pick is if the Padres sign him, which is less likely.
3/$21M to Loiaza seems totally un-Beane. I'm not sure that will go down.
It's already official. Check MLB.com
AMYanks
11-28-05, 04:15 PM
Awesome news. Too bad they didnt finish dead last in the NL East. Would've been nice to have a high pick.
We won't get a 1st round pick if a team is too bad. 16th pick is the best pick we can get.
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 04:16 PM
Yea it sounded as though they were close to locking him up.
MTYankee23
11-28-05, 04:17 PM
We won't get a 1st round pick if a team is too bad. 16th pick is the best pick we can get.
The only way we get screwed here is if Philadelphia signs a player deemed more valuable than Gordon. In which case we'd get their 2nd rounder.
Captain Yankee
11-28-05, 04:17 PM
We should really look at Braden Looper and Octavio Dotel. Both are free agents aren't they?
AMYanks
11-28-05, 04:17 PM
It's already official. Check MLB.com
Wow, I didn't know it was official. Very surprising.
AMYanks
11-28-05, 04:18 PM
We should really look at Braden Looper and Octavio Dotel. Both are free agents aren't they?
Dotel, in an incentive-laden deal, would be a terrific signing. I hope Cashman is doing things behind the scenes, because I haven't heard the Yankees linked to Dotel at all.
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 04:20 PM
I heard the Mets had intrest in Dotel.
DiMaggio5CF
11-28-05, 04:20 PM
How is being labeled "as the most aggressive suitor" by Ken Rosenthal qualify as a "pre-emptive strike" by the Phillies?
A very, very misleading thread title.
I read a headline that called it a "pre-emptive strike" earlier today. Quangormo wasn't misleading anyone. I can vouch that that really was the headline at some point.
rightfielder21
11-28-05, 04:21 PM
How is being labeled "as the most aggressive suitor" by Ken Rosenthal qualify as a "pre-emptive strike" by the Phillies?
A very, very misleading thread title.
If it was correctly titled half the people wouldn't have opened the thread...
Kulish29
11-28-05, 04:22 PM
Shouldnt this be in ATM?
Snatch Catch
11-28-05, 04:23 PM
I heard the Mets had intrest in Dotel.
That was 8 years ago, though.
The only way we get screwed here is if Philadelphia signs a player deemed more valuable than Gordon. In which case we'd get their 2nd rounder.
If I remember correctly, only two or three players had higher free agent ratings than Gordon. One of which was Wagner. I forget what website had the ratings, perhaps someone could help me out there. Anyway, my point is we'd be well positioned to grab their 1st rounder and the supplemental pick.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 04:40 PM
If I remember correctly, only two or three players had higher free agent ratings than Gordon. One of which was Wagner. I forget what website had the ratings, perhaps someone could help me out there. Anyway, my point is we'd be well positioned to grab their 1st rounder and the supplemental pick.
And we most likely will either get bradley when hes non tendered or Wilkerson in a trade for CF, so we shouldnt be losing any of our first round picks.
Snatch Catch
11-28-05, 04:42 PM
If I remember correctly, only two or three players had higher free agent ratings than Gordon. One of which was Wagner. I forget what website had the ratings, perhaps someone could help me out there. Anyway, my point is we'd be well positioned to grab their 1st rounder and the supplemental pick.
AMERICAN LEAGUE
Designated hitters, first basemen and outfielders
1. Mark Teixeira, Rangers 98.462
2. Vladimir Guerrero, Angels 97.183
3. Manny Ramirez, Red Sox 96.056
4. Hideki Matsui, Yankees 94.507
5. Travis Hafner, Indians 94.286
6. Gary Sheffield, Yankees 93.380
7. David Ortiz, Red Sox 92.857
8. Paul Konerko, White Sox 88.462
9. Johnny Damon, Red Sox 88.169
10. Raul Ibanez, Mariners 83.662
11. Ichiro Suzuki, Mariners 82.817
12. Aubrey Huff, Devil Rays 78.028
13. Coco Crisp, Indians 77.465
14. Vernon Wells, Blue Jays 76.901
15. Mark Kotsay, Athletics 76.620
16. Shea Hillenbrand, Blue Jays 76.154
17. Mike Sweeney, Royals 75.714
18. Garret Anderson, Angels 73.521
19. Carl Crawford, Devil Rays 72.817
20. Aaron Rowand, White Sox 72.394
21. Richie Sexson, Mariners 72.308
22. Jason Giambi, Yankees 71.538
22. Kevin Millar, Red Sox 71.538
24. Dmitri Young, Tigers 71.429
25. Craig Monroe, Tigers 69.859
26. Rondell White, Tigers 69.577
27. Lew Ford, Twins 69.296
27. Matt Lawton, Yankees 69.296
29. Jermaine Dye, White Sox 69.155
30. Torii Hunter, Twins 68.732
31. Shannon Stewart, Twins 68.451
32. Kevin Mench, Rangers 68.169
33. Erubiel Durazo, Athletics 67.143
34. Phil Nevin, Rangers 66.154
Catchers
1. Victor Martinez, Indians 88.095
2. Javy Lopez, Orioles 87.619
3. Jorge Posada, Yankees 84.286
4. Jason Varitek, Red Sox 83.095
5. A.J. Pierzynski, White Sox 79.048
6. Ivan Rodriguez, Tigers 78.095
7. Bengie Molina, Angels 77.143
8. Jason Kendall, Athletics 74.286
9. Joe Mauer, Twins 70.476
Second basemen, third basemen and shortstops
1. Alex Rodriguez, Yankees 92.857
2. Derek Jeter, Yankees 92.208
3. Placido Polanco, Tigers 88.360
4. Adrian Beltre, Mariners 88.095
5. Miguel Tejada, Orioles 87.662
6. Michael Young, Rangers 87.013
7. Brian Roberts, Orioles 86.772
8. Eric Chavez, Athletics 85.119
9. Melvin Mora, Orioles 83.929
10. Ron Belliard, Indians 78.307
11. Hank Blalock, Rangers 77.976
12. Carlos Guillen, Tigers 77.922
13. Orlando Hudson, Blue Jays 76.190
14. Mark Ellis, Athletics 71.958
14. Alfonso Soriano, Rangers 71.958
16. Adam Kennedy, Angels 71.429
17. Julio Lugo, Devil Rays 70.779
18. Mark Bellhorn, Yankees 68.783
19. Bill Mueller, Red Sox 68.452
20. Juan Uribe, White Sox 68.182
21. Tony Graffanino, Red Sox 66.931
22. Edgar Renteria, Red Sox 66.883
23. Orlando Cabrera, Angels 66.234
Starting pitchers
1. Johan Santana, Twins 98.333
2. Randy Johnson, Yankees 95.185
3. Mark Buehrle, White Sox 94.259
4. Bartolo Colon, Angels 88.333
5. Curt Schilling, Red Sox 87.963
6. John Lackey, Angels 85.278
7. Freddy Garcia, White Sox 82.870
8. Jake Westbrook, Indians 79.815
9. Barry Zito, Athletics 79.722
10. David Wells, Red Sox 79.444
11. Jon Garland, White Sox 79.074
12. Kenny Rogers, Rangers 78.611
13. Cliff Lee, Indians 77.778
14. Rich Harden, Athletics 77.130
15. Carl Pavano, Yankees 76.667
16. C.C. Sabathia, Indians 76.481
17. Mike Mussina, Yankees 74.259
18. Jose Contreras, White Sox 73.241
19. Tim Wakefield, Red Sox 72.963
20. Brad Radke, Twins 72.222
21. Rodrigo Lopez, Orioles 72.037
22. Roy Halladay, Blue Jays 71.389
23. Carlos Silva, Twins 69.815
24. Ted Lilly, Blue Jays 69.444
25. Matt Clement, Red Sox 68.889
26. Bronson Arroyo, Red Sox 68.148
27. Mike Maroth, Tigers 67.778
Relief pitchers
1. Mariano Rivera, Yankees 95.421
2. Joe Nathan, Twins 94.113
3. Francisco Rodriguez, Angels 93.536
4. Tom Gordon, Yankees 92.497
5. B.J. Ryan, Orioles 92.228
6. Juan Rincon, Twins 89.804
7. Scot Shields, Angels 83.609
8. Keith Foulke, Red Sox 81.762
9. Francisco Cordero, Rangers 81.724
10. Eddie Guardado, Mariners 81.685
11. Justin Duchscherer, Athletics 79.454
12. Justin Speier, Blue Jays 78.838
13. Bob Howry, Indians 77.318
14. Octavio Dotel, Athletics 76.260
15. Mike Timlin, Red Sox 75.529
16. Brendan Donnelly, Angels 74.952
17. David Riske, Indians 74.779
18. Kiko Calero, Athletics 74.644
19. Rafael Betancourt, Indians 74.490
20. Huston Street, Athletics 72.489
21. Dustin Hermanson, White Sox 71.335
22. Damaso Marte, White Sox 71.104
23. Cliff Politte, White Sox 71.066
24. Danys Baez, Devil Rays 70.489
25. Jason Frasor, Blue Jays 66.756
26. Matt Miller, Indians 66.641
27. J.C. Romero, Twins 66.141
28. Bob Wickman, Indians 65.795
29. Luis Vizcaino, White Sox 64.833
30. Julio Mateo, Mariners 64.063
31. Steve Kline, Orioles 63.640
32. Jamie Walker, Tigers 62.755
33. Neal Cotts, White Sox 62.447
34. Jay Witasick, Athletics 61.678
NATIONAL LEAGUE
First basemen and outfielders
1. Albert Pujols, Cardinals 98.519
2. Lance Berkman, Astros 94.800
3. Miguel Cabrera, Marlins 93.800
4. Todd Helton, Rockies 93.333
5. Bobby Abreu, Phillies 91.900
6. Derrek Lee, Cubs 91.852
7. Jason Bay, Pirates 90.400
8. Moises Alou, Giants 88.800
9. Jim Edmonds, Cardinals 86.800
10. J.D. Drew, Dodgers 86.000
11. Barry Bonds, Giants 85.400
12. Brian Giles, Padres 85.400
13. Pat Burrell, Phillies 85.000
14. Carlos Delgado, Marlins 82.963
15. Adam Dunn, Reds 82.400
16. Carlos Lee, Brewers 82.400
17. Ken Griffey Jr., Reds 80.600
18. Randy Winn, Giants 79.000
19. Sean Casey, Reds 78.519
20. Geoff Jenkins, Brewers 77.400
21. Andruw Jones, Braves 77.200
22. Carlos Beltran, Astros 77.100
23. Shawn Green, Diamondbacks 77.100
24. Matt Holliday, Rockies 76.800
25. Jose Guillen, Nationals 76.600
26. Lyle Overbay, Brewers 76.296
27. Cliff Floyd, Mets 75.800
28. Jeromy Burnitz, Cubs 75.600
29. Luis Gonzalez, Diamondbacks 74.800
30. Brady Clark, Brewers 72.200
31. Larry Walker, Cardinals 71.800
32. Jim Thome, Phillies 71.11
33. Milton Bradley, Dodgers 70.800
34. Craig Biggio, Astros 70.300
35. Ryan Klesko, Braves 68.800
36. Brad Wilkerson, Nationals 67.400
37. Juan Pierre, Marlins 67.100
38. Craig Wilson, Pirates 66.000
39. Jeff Conine, Marlins 65.400
Catchers
1. Michael Barrett, Cubs 87.645
2. Paul Lo Duca, Marlins 87.452
3. Johnny Estrada, Braves 82.625
4. Mike Piazza, Mets 81.467
5. Ramon Hernandez, Padres 80.695
6. Damian Miller, Brewers 79.923
7. Mike Lieberthal, Phillies 79.151
8. Jason LaRue, Reds 77.220
9. Brian Schneider, Nationals 76.834
10. Mike Matheny, Giants 74.517
11. Brad Ausmus, Astros 69.498
Second basemen, Third basemen and shortstops
1. Mark Loretta, Padres 88.961
2. Aramis Ramirez, Cubs 88.670
3. Jimmy Rollins, Phillies 87.192
4. Scott Rolen, Cardinals 85.222
5. Marcus Giles, Braves 83.117
5. Jeff Kent, Dodgers 83.117
7. Chipper Jones, Braves 80.296
8. Rafael Furcal, Braves 78.325
9. David Eckstein, Cardinals 6.355
10. Vinny Castilla, Rockies 75.862
10. Omar Vizquel, Giants 75.862
12. Jack Wilson, Pirates 75.369
13. Ray Durham, Giants 74.675
14. Mike Lowell, Marlins 73.645
15. Luis Castillo, Marlins 72.727
16. Morgan Ensberg, Astros 71.921
17. David Wright, Mets 70.197
18. Joe Randa, Padres 69.951
19. Mark Grudzielanek, Cardinals 69.156
20. Cesar Izturis, Dodgers 67.980
21. Edgardo Alfonzo, Giants 66.502
22. Jose Vidro, Nationals 66.234
22. Todd Walker, Cubs 66.234
24. Royce Clayton, Diamondbacks 66.010
25. Chase Utley, Phillies 65.584
Starting pitchers
1. Roy Oswalt, Astros 95.072
2. Roger Clemens, Astros 90.412
3. Jake Peavy, Padres 89.964
4. Pedro Martinez, Mets 87.634
5. Carlos Zambrano, Cubs 87.545
6. Chris Carpenter, Cardinals 86.470
7. Dontrelle Willis, Marlins 86.380
8. Jason Schmidt, Giants 84.857
9. Ben Sheets, Brewers 83.333
10. Jon Lieber, Phillies 81.900
11. Livan Hernandez, Nationals 80.735
12. Mark Mulder, Cardinals 79.301
13. Jeff Weaver, Dodgers 78.674
14. Doug Davis, Brewers 78.315
15. Greg Maddux, Cubs 77.599
16. Tim Hudson, Braves 75.627
17. Andy Pettitte, Astros 74.910
18. Matt Morris, Cardinals 73.477
19. Josh Beckett, Marlins 72.043
20. Brandon Webb, Diamondbacks 71.505
21. Jason Marquis, Cardinals 70.789
22. A.J. Burnett, Marlins 70.609
23. Jeff Suppan, Cardinals 70.520
24. Adam Eaton, Padres 69.534
25. Brett Myers, Phillies 67.832
26. Chris Capuano, Brewers 67.563
27. Kris Benson, Mets 67.025
28. Cory Lidle, Phillies 66.846
Relief pitchers
1. Billy Wagner, Phillies 93.854
2. Brad Lidge, Astros 93.658
3. Scott Linebrink, Padres 87.512
4. Jason Isringhausen, Cardinals 85.943
5. Eric Gagne, Dodgers 85.289
6. Chad Cordero, Nationals 84.995
7. John Smoltz, Braves 84.243
8. Armando Benitez, Giants 81.857
9. Trevor Hoffman, Padres 81.268
10. LaTroy Hawkins, Cubs 79.928
11. Kyle Farnsworth, Braves 79.732
12. Akinori Otsuka, Padres 79.045
13. Todd Jones, Marlins 78.947
14. Luis Ayala, Nationals 78.686
15. Ryan Madson, Phillies 78.326
16. Salomon Torres, Pirates 78.294
17. Mike Gonzalez, Pirates 77.117
18. Brian Fuentes, Rockies 76.822
19. Julian Tavarez, Cardinals 75.155
20. Guillermo Mota, Marlins 73.619
21. Jose Valverde, Diamondbacks 73.521
22. Ugueth Urbina, Phillies 73.227
23. Tim Worrell, Phillies 73.096
24. Rudy Seanez, Padres 73.063
25. Al Reyes, Cardinals 72.605
26. Derrick Turnbow, Brewers 72.377
27. Dan Wheeler, Astros 70.873
28. Scott Eyre, Giants 70.611
29. Chris Reitsma, Braves 70.252
30. Kent Mercker, Reds 69.794
31. Braden Looper, Mets 68.585
32. Duaner Sanchez, Dodgers 65.773
33. Aaron Heilman, Mets 65.642
34. Ryan Dempster, Cubs 65.479
35. David Weathers, Reds 64.531
36. Ray King, Cardinals 64.433
37. Giovanni Carrara, Dodgers 64.041
38. Aaron Fultz, Giants 63.877
39. Chad Qualls, Astros 63.714
40. Wilson Alvarez, Dodgers 63.517
Shaun4013
11-28-05, 05:10 PM
Let them have him. I lost all faith in Flash the minute Torre literally caused Flashs arm to fall off his body each October.
BeantownYankee
11-28-05, 05:25 PM
We won't get a 1st round pick if a team is too bad. 16th pick is the best pick we can get.
It's a pick! Still bugs me that we got zip for Clemens signing with Houston!:mad:
BeantownYankee
11-28-05, 05:31 PM
We won't get a 1st round pick if a team is too bad. 16th pick is the best pick we can get.
Maybe Cash can work a deal where they trade us Michaels and as part of the deal we don't offer arbitration to Flash. :D
Quangormo
11-28-05, 05:33 PM
We should really look at Braden Looper and Octavio Dotel. Both are free agents aren't they?
I believe so. Looper could be an especially good signing, if he doesn't insist on being a closer. He may not be a great closer, but he's more effective than most setup guys.
I wonder if the Mutts would trade Graves.
Yep.
And we don't have to deal with Torre sturtzing Gordon out there in '07 or '08.Another Freudian slip or did you just invent a verb?
38Special
11-28-05, 05:40 PM
Let them have him. I lost all faith in Flash the minute Torre literally caused Flashs arm to fall off his body each October.
So who's fault was it?
Snatch Catch
11-28-05, 05:41 PM
Another Freudian slip or did you just invent a verb?
I invented a verb. :)
Quangormo
11-28-05, 05:41 PM
And we most likely will either get bradley when hes non tendered or Wilkerson in a trade for CF, so we shouldnt be losing any of our first round picks.
I would love to have Wilky, who could be a solid hitter for us virtually anywhere in the lineup. (1st or 2nd, maybe?) However, the Nats are looking for starting pitchers, especially having lost Loaiza to Oakland today. If they had a real owner, they might have interest in Pavano, but until then, if we sent him to Washington, we'd have to throw in a good chunk of his salary. Still, I might be inclined to do that.
Unless Bowden is interested in Wright.
I invented a verb. :)Hahah. Very nice. It could have been that you meant to say strutting, but Sturtze was on your mind. This way, though, it's clever ;)
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 05:42 PM
Maybe Cash can work a deal where they trade us Michaels and as part of the deal we don't offer arbitration to Flash. :D
That would be an awful idea.
JapanJobbers
11-28-05, 05:42 PM
Maybe Cash can work a deal where they trade us Michaels and as part of the deal we don't offer arbitration to Flash. :D
Sounds good, but Philly probably won't care too much about their pick since they will get the Met's pick for losing Wagner.
BeantownYankee
11-28-05, 05:44 PM
That would be an awful idea.
and the reason why it would be an awful idea? {fill in the blank}
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 05:53 PM
and the reason why it would be an awful idea? {fill in the blank}
It would cost us two draft picks, and they don't have the leverage to make that request. If they want to get stupid, there's a dozen other CF options we could go after. They're going to sign Gordon, and be lucky to do it.
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 06:43 PM
We should offer Gordon arbitration regardless. But with the salaries closers are getting I think Gordon is gone anyway. He would not accept arbitration as I'm sure Philadelphia will give him 3 years.
noneckwilliams
11-28-05, 06:49 PM
He's asking for 3 years solid.
The team that gives Flash 3 years will regret it. Thanks for the memories TG.
NewEraYanks2527
11-28-05, 06:51 PM
Let the Phillies go for it, maybe they included barf bags in the deal.
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 06:54 PM
The team that gives Flash 3 years will regret it. Thanks for the memories TG.
Thanks to the Ryan signing the absurd deal he got and then Wagner leaving for the Mets, I think that third year for Gordon was guaranteed. I think Philadelphia gives it to him. And with this, if Cashman didn't offer arbitration (I don't think there's any chance he doesn't) then he should be fired.
sugmasterflex
11-28-05, 06:59 PM
Great news about Wagner. This forces the Phillies to go for Gordon, and we get their pick and a supplemental first rounder.
Couldn't agree more.
sugmasterflex
11-28-05, 07:00 PM
Maybe Cash can work a deal where they trade us Michaels and as part of the deal we don't offer arbitration to Flash. :D
Nope. The picks would be more valuable than Michaels.
Yankees1962
11-28-05, 07:02 PM
Thanks to the Ryan signing the absurd deal he got and then Wagner leaving for the Mets, I think that third year for Gordon was guaranteed. I think Philadelphia gives it to him. And with this, if Cashman didn't offer arbitration (I don't think there's any chance he doesn't) then he should be fired.
The Yankees can wait until December 7th to offer arbitration, even if Gordon signs with the Phillies beforehand.
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 07:06 PM
The Yankees can wait until December 7th to offer arbitration, even if Gordon signs with the Phillies beforehand.
I agree, but I don't think there is any chance Gordon accepts it even if offered it. With what has just happened, I'd be surprised if he didn't get the 3 years. But I guess the devil's advocate could say that Philly could say that if you don't take closer's money here for two (with perhaps an option for a third) then he will settle for two at mid-relievers money. In any event, I was talking about the final result.
Yankee Clipper
11-28-05, 07:11 PM
Great news about Wagner. This forces the Phillies to go for Gordon, and we get their pick and a supplemental first rounder.
I don't know how a pick is better than Gordon? That pick may or may not work out, but Gordon was solid with us, even if he struggled in October.
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 07:12 PM
I don't know how a pick is better than Gordon? That pick may or may not work out, but Gordon was solid with us, even if he struggled in October.
Its 2 picks. 2 picks, going forward, will likely be more valuable than a 38 year old short reliever in decline.
Yankee Clipper
11-28-05, 07:19 PM
Its 2 picks. 2 picks, going forward, will likely be more valuable than a 38 year old short reliever in decline.
It has the potential to be better, but Gordon is one of the few relievers to actually perform well in NY the last few seasons. Pick are promising, but aren't a guarantee and with the FA market right now with relievers, he's the best bet to doing well in NY.
Yankee Clipper
11-28-05, 07:19 PM
Its 2 picks. 2 picks, going forward, will likely be more valuable than a 38 year old short reliever in decline.
It has the potential to be better, but Gordon is one of the few relievers to actually perform well in NY the last few seasons. Pick are promising, but aren't a guarantee and with the FA market right now with relievers, he's the best bet to do well in NY.
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 07:23 PM
It has the potential to be better, but Gordon is one of the few relievers to actually perform well in NY the last few seasons. Pick are promising, but aren't a guarantee and with the FA market right now with relievers, he's the best bet to do well in NY.
His K rates declining heavily last year, and at his age, thats really scary. We could be regretting a 3 year deal in year 1. I'd rather have the picks.
Matsui55
11-28-05, 07:24 PM
Ok, lets clear some things up here.
One- if a FA signs before December 7, then the losing team can still offer arbitration to that player and get draft picks. The only difference is that the player won't accept because they already have a contract (can't have two contracts at the same time). For example, there is NO doubt the Phillies will offer Wagner arbitration- the same for the O's and Ryan- but because they are signed, they get the picks without risk.
Two- Gordon is no great loss- if George was at the peak of his powers in the media, Gordon would have been the next "Mr. May" (see Winfield). Yes, they lose good set-up innings, but they can be replaced- see three.
Three- the FA available today are not the only FA who will hit the market. December 20 (I think that's the date this year) is the "second deadline"- that's the day when clubs must offer contracts to unsigned players not yet eligible for FA, or they become FA. There are always a handful of 4th and 5th year guys who hit the market at that time because clubs don't want to pay them or go to arbitration for what they feel the player's production will be. In other words, the clusb doesn't feel like the player will produce numbers equal to salary- so they don't offer a contract and let them go.
Four- every spring, a large number of experienced vet pitchers sign minor league deals to go to camp with a chance to win a ML job- usually in the pen. The Yanks have had some very good success with this route over the years- the most recent example being Aaron Small.
In other words, just because the Yanks don't have 6 All Star relievers on December 7 is no reason to get excited. To put things in perspective- Wagner signed for more than Mo, and Ryan got almost as much. But if those teams had the choice, which one do you think they would choose? There's a reason why the Yanks win- and Mo is it. The Yanks need to focus less on "name brand" arms and focus on getting relievers who fill roles and eat innings.
Right now, I would be happy with a pen that had Mo closing, Henn as the late power LHP, Matt Smith as the LOOGY, Jorge DePaula or Small as the long man, Sturtze as the set-up guy and some as yet named power arm who can throw 55-70 IP in a secondary set-up role. FRod could even return, if he was willing to take a pay cut.
Of course- except for Sturtze and Mo, none would be safe from spring training challenges. The above would also be at least as effective as Stanton, or any of the other junk we collected last year- at a fraction of the cost. In fact, the list above (outside of Mo) would make less combined than the Yanks paid FRod alone last year! The reason that is important is that it provides the Yanks the flexibility to add to the payroll for a reliever later- a problem they couldn't take on last year.
Michaels07
11-28-05, 07:31 PM
I was more speaking about Oakland giving him 21 million
Every third year he`s a Cy Young candidate
Matsui55
11-28-05, 07:31 PM
It has the potential to be better, but Gordon is one of the few relievers to actually perform well in NY the last few seasons. Pick are promising, but aren't a guarantee and with the FA market right now with relievers, he's the best bet to do well in NY.
True- no pick is ever guaranteed- but getting those two picks allows the Yanks to grab two young high-end players who can either be used as trade bait or be used to bolster the big club.
The Yanks may not have always drafted well in the early rounds (especially in the 90's), but they made several nice moves when they had success with some. One example was the trade of Fielder for a former 1st rounder (Drews?). The guy had one big year, and we turned him into Big Cecil- who helped us win a title. The Yanks guessed correctly that Drews(?) was a nothing.
Without that 1st rounder, maybe we have the bait for a deal, and maybe we don't. I'd rather have it in hand for later.
Long term thinking always beat the short term. Short term thinking (Quantrill, Karsay, etc.) is why the Yanks are here now.
I have a feeling that JB will win a spot in the pen out of spring training. The latest by mid-season.
CTyankeefan
11-28-05, 07:42 PM
Great news about Wagner. This forces the Phillies to go for Gordon, and we get their pick and a supplemental first rounder.
Who gives a crap anbout a supplemental pick and the Phillies pick?
Ridiculous. When was the last yankee draft pick to make the majors in the first two rounds?
I am sick of the stock the farm system talent on this baord. We should just forget the amateur draft and sign young latin ball players whenever possible. We don't ever get an American drafted player to the majors EVER. And rarely do they even become major leaguers.
The Yanks have taken two steps back this offseason because of inaction.
AMYanks
11-28-05, 07:44 PM
Who gives a crap anbout a supplemental pick and the Phillies pick?
Ridiculous. When was the last yankee draft pick to make the majors in the first two rounds?
I am sick of the stock the farm system talent on this baord. We should just forget the amateur draft and sign young latin ball players whenever possible. We don't ever get an American drafted player to the majors EVER. And rarely do they even become major leaguers.
The Yanks have taken two steps back this offseason because of inaction.
Yeah, who needs to develop players?!!?!?
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 07:51 PM
Yeah, who needs to develop players?!!?!?
Yes, we should go out and make moves because the fans are impatient. Can't beat that pre-emptive signing of Jaret Wright last year to that 3/21 deal. Got to sign them fast!
38Special
11-28-05, 07:53 PM
Who gives a crap anbout a supplemental pick and the Phillies pick?
Ridiculous. When was the last yankee draft pick to make the majors in the first two rounds?
I am sick of the stock the farm system talent on this baord. We should just forget the amateur draft and sign young latin ball players whenever possible. We don't ever get an American drafted player to the majors EVER. And rarely do they even become major leaguers.
The Yanks have taken two steps back this offseason because of inaction.
http://tinypic.com/hx2cd3.jpg
PittsburghYankeeFan
11-28-05, 08:00 PM
Brilliant!
Overpaying for Middle-Relievers and back end starters is a bad bad idea.
Can you say Felix Heredia!!!
PittsburghYankeeFan
11-28-05, 08:08 PM
Who gives a crap anbout a supplemental pick and the Phillies pick?
Ridiculous. When was the last yankee draft pick to make the majors in the first two rounds?
I am sick of the stock the farm system talent on this baord. We should just forget the amateur draft and sign young latin ball players whenever possible. We don't ever get an American drafted player to the majors EVER. And rarely do they even become major leaguers.
The Yanks have taken two steps back this offseason because of inaction.
Chill a bit.
Predicting middle relief success from year to year (especially in the postseason) is like reading tea leaves. Bobby Jenks?
Let Gordon go if he wants 3 years (or give him 2 with a performance based option year 3 and if he doesn't take it, hasta la vista, baby).
Last time I looked, games are won on the field DURING the season. If offseason moves predicted postseason success, we would have won the last 2 WS.
The Y's are pretty damn good as they stand for 2006. We are only looking for 2 BP roster spots if my calculations are correct.
It looks like there is finally common sense in the FO instead of panic. Cashman really must have got what he wanted from Swindall.
Yankee Clipper
11-28-05, 08:10 PM
True- no pick is ever guaranteed- but getting those two picks allows the Yanks to grab two young high-end players who can either be used as trade bait or be used to bolster the big club.
The Yanks may not have always drafted well in the early rounds (especially in the 90's), but they made several nice moves when they had success with some. One example was the trade of Fielder for a former 1st rounder (Drews?). The guy had one big year, and we turned him into Big Cecil- who helped us win a title. The Yanks guessed correctly that Drews(?) was a nothing.
Without that 1st rounder, maybe we have the bait for a deal, and maybe we don't. I'd rather have it in hand for later.
Long term thinking always beat the short term. Short term thinking (Quantrill, Karsay, etc.) is why the Yanks are here now.
My reasoning for signing Gordon is because I do not trust any of the other FA relievers out there. They are big question marks and at least Gordon has been able to perform in pinstripes. He may be the new Mr. May, but his job is to take the workload off of Rivera, so he'll be healthy. I have no problem building for the future, in fact that's what I'm all about and usually I wouldn't care if we lost Gordon, but to not make an offer to him and just offer arbitration is ridiculous. No one out there can duplicate what he did in the two years here. I think fans are too critical of him, even if he did perform poorly in last years ALCS.
TheScooter
11-28-05, 08:21 PM
The Phillies have stepped up their efforts to sign Gordon in recent days, according to two sources who have spoken with them. What is still unclear is whether they are willing to give Gordon the three-year contract he is looking for at age 38.
It used to be that pitchers in their late 30s got one-year contracts, or one-year deals with an option, Gillick said during a farewell-to-Wagner conference call. But "your actions are dictated by the market," he conceded.
And this market is "driving up the value of older pitchers on the market," he said. "So I wouldn't be surprised to see somebody that age get two years and an option, or possibly three years."
In fact, that somebody might just get that deal from the Phillies. They've kicked the tires on nearly all the available closers -- from Gordon and Hoffman to Bob Wickman and Kyle Farnsworth. But every indication is that they've been the most aggressive team in the market in pursuit of Gordon, whom they've tried to sign on two previous occasions in the past
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2239894
longtimeyankeefan
11-28-05, 08:28 PM
Who gives a crap anbout a supplemental pick and the Phillies pick?
Ridiculous. When was the last yankee draft pick to make the majors in the first two rounds?
I am sick of the stock the farm system talent on this baord. We should just forget the amateur draft and sign young latin ball players whenever possible. We don't ever get an American drafted player to the majors EVER. And rarely do they even become major leaguers.
The Yanks have taken two steps back this offseason because of inaction.
First Round Picks:
2001 - John Ford Griffin
1996 - Eric Milton
1992 - Derek Jeter
2005 Yankees who were first or second round draft picks:
1998 - Bubba Crosby (1st round/23rd pick - LAD)
1995 - Mark Belhorn (2nd round - Oakland)
1994 - Jaret Wright (1st/10th - Cleveland)
1994 - Russ Johnson (1st/30th - Houston)
1993 - ARod (1st/1st- Seattle)
1992 - Derek Jeter (1st/6th - NYY)
1992 - Jason Giambi (2nd round - Oakland)
1990 - Mike Mussina (1st/20th - Baltimore)
1990 - Steve Karsay (1st/22nd - Toronto)
1988 - Tino Martinez (1st/14th- Seattle)
1986 - Kevin Brown (1st/4th - Texas)
1986 - Gary Sheffield (1st/6th - Milwaukee)
1985 - Randy Johnson (2nd round - Montreal)
1984 - Al Leiter (2nd round - NYY)
Draft picks - and high draft picks - do matter.
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 08:44 PM
IMO the reason we have not won the big game in the last 5 years has been because we have ignored the draft.Well 3 of the last 5 at least.You can spend all you want in march bit you'll need some bullets for July 31 to make up what the team is lacking.The last few years we've come up short.
TheScooter
11-28-05, 09:07 PM
Who gives a crap anbout a supplemental pick and the Phillies pick?
Ridiculous. When was the last yankee draft pick to make the majors in the first two rounds?
I am sick of the stock the farm system talent on this baord. We should just forget the amateur draft and sign young latin ball players whenever possible. We don't ever get an American drafted player to the majors EVER. And rarely do they even become major leaguers.
The Yanks have taken two steps back this offseason because of inaction.
Please inform us what moves you wanted the Yankees to make that haven't been made
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 09:08 PM
Please inform us what moves you wanted the Yankees to make that haven't been made
You'll never get the answer other than "anything". "Patience" and "fanatic" do not mesh.
dabomb2045
11-28-05, 09:12 PM
so who will our setup man be next season?
What are the chances Flash is healthy for three years? Heck....I doubt he's even effective in year 3, and I would not be at all surprised to see his effectiveness suffer each of the next several years.
I'd prefer to resign Gordon, but three years is ludicrous. And.....the man gets too amped up in big spots- regular season or postseason. Yes, it is worthwhile to have a guy who is going to dominate the bulk of games during the summer months, but there is something to be said for guys who step it up or at least maintain their effectiveness as the pressure mounts. Interestingly, the guy the Phills just lost has had his own share of big moment failures....
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 09:18 PM
What are the chances Flash is healthy for three years? Heck....I doubt he's even effective in year 3, and I would not be at all surprised to see his effectiveness suffer each of the next several years.
I'd prefer to resign Gordon, but three years is ludicrous. And.....the man gets too amped up in big spots- regular season or postseason. Yes, it is worthwhile to have a guy who is going to dominate the bulk of games during the summer months, but there is something to be said for guys who step it up or at least maintain their effectiveness as the pressure mounts. Interestingly, the guy the Phills just lost has had his own share of big moment failures....
Sadly, because of Ryan and Wagner's deals, Gordon's chances for a third year grew exponentially the past three days. Which is why on Dec. 7 I offer arbitration as there is absolutely no way he accepts.
I'm very happy that Cash won't budge from his 2-year offer.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 09:21 PM
Gordon:
2003:11.07 k/9
2004:9.64 k/9
2005:7.70 k/9
Not a good trend
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 09:22 PM
I'm very happy that Cash won't budge from his 2-year offer.
Ditto. I only budge on years if it's a sure fire bet in return. I'm not even sold Gordon will be at this level the second year, much less a third.
Sadly, because of Ryan and Wagner's deals, Gordon's chances for a third year grew exponentially the past three days. Which is why on Dec. 7 I offer arbitration as there is absolutely no way he accepts.
No doubt. In fact, I'd love him to actually accept it. Would give the Yanks a solid late guy, aging, locked into only one year at what would now be considered a reasonable price. He won't, though.
dabomb2045
11-28-05, 09:24 PM
Ditto. I only budge on years if it's a sure fire bet in return. I'm not even sold Gordon will be at this level the second year, much less a third.
I agree with not giving Gordon 3 years, but I'll still pose the question....who is our setup man next season??
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 09:25 PM
I agree with not giving Gordon 3 years, but I'll still pose the question....who is our setup man next season??
sturtze, farnsworth, dotel or some surprise guy who comes out of nowhere which every good bullpen has.
dabomb2045
11-28-05, 09:27 PM
sturtze, farnsworth, dotel or some surprise guy who comes out of nowhere which every good bullpen has.
Dotel is worth a chance...the thought of Sturtze as our main setup man makes me puke
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 09:28 PM
I agree with not giving Gordon 3 years, but I'll still pose the question....who is our setup man next season??
Don't know, but I would be opposed in ALL scenarios to giving Gordon a third year. Bad deals have got to end.
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 09:28 PM
Dotel is worth a chance...the thought of Sturtze as our main setup man makes me puke
I would be shocked if that were ever even considered.
dabomb2045
11-28-05, 09:29 PM
Don't know, but I would be opposed in ALL scenarios to giving Gordon a third year. Bad deals have got to end.
not going crazy with bad deals is fine...but I hope people realize that this team will not be as good...especially if we go into the season with a weak bullpen
YankeePride1967
11-28-05, 09:32 PM
not going crazy with bad deals is fine...but I hope people realize that this team will not be as good...especially if we go into the season with a weak bullpen
I doubt it would come to that, but if it meant STARTING 2006 with a weak pen if the only alternative is to give Gordon 3 years, I'd do it. We can trade for relief or like the White Sox this year, find it in places not yet seen. Our roster has become inflexible and overpriced because of our habit of heavily backloading and the long term deals.
Dotel is worth a chance...the thought of Sturtze as our main setup man makes me puke
The crazy thing? Watching Dotel in big spots (a recurring theme here), I would almost prefer a healthy Sturtze to Dotel in October......
I'd offer a little money, based on health, to Dotel...but wouldn't want to lean on the guy. He's an absolute HR machine.
38Special
11-28-05, 09:41 PM
The crazy thing? Watching Dotel in big spots (a recurring theme here), I would almost prefer a healthy Sturtze to Dotel in October......
I'd offer a little money, based on health, to Dotel...but wouldn't want to lean on the guy. He's an absolute HR machine.
If you had watched some national league baseball prior to last year, you'd know that Dotel was the premier setup man as a member of the Astros pen. He had issues as the closer (as many others do) but he was untouchable as a setup guy
If you had watched some national league baseball prior to last year, you'd know that Dotel was the premier setup man as a member of the Astros pen. He had issues as the closer (as many others do) but he was untouchable as a setup guy
You are right. He was untouchable as Wagner's setup man. He has struggled as a closer, but was very good in a setup role. But....he's also been pretty bad in October, as well as giving up some memorable late inning HR down the stretch. I like him...but I like the pre-major elbow surgery Dotel a heck of a lot better. If his FB is even 3-4 mph slower (which I can't imagine it NOT being for at least most of the year), he could be very ordinary. Also....he's been quite ordinary in the AL, which is much more difficult than the NL Central.
JeffWeaverFan
11-28-05, 10:02 PM
I will gladly take their first round pick.
JeffWeaverFan
11-28-05, 10:02 PM
not going crazy with bad deals is fine...but I hope people realize that this team will not be as good...especially if we go into the season with a weak bullpen
I think the bullpen will be better than last year with the signing of Farnsworth and, say, Looper or someone cheap but good along those lines.
dabomb2045
11-29-05, 12:47 AM
I think the bullpen will be better than last year with the signing of Farnsworth and, say, Looper or someone cheap but good along those lines.
I dont think Farnsworth is as good as alot of people think he is...and I dont like Looper at all
With the Braves leading one, Farnsworth gave up that grand slam bomb for the Astros in the 8 or 9th inning.
Stupid Flanders
11-29-05, 01:03 AM
I dont think Farnsworth is as good as alot of people think he is...and I dont like Looper at allDo you have any alternatives?
dabomb2045
11-29-05, 01:23 AM
Do you have any alternatives?
nope...but just as some people think giving Gordon 3 years is bad...I think investing is Farnsworth and Looper isnt the best move either
jorman318
11-29-05, 09:18 AM
Sturtze is terrible people, lets keep that in mind
ICEBERG18
11-29-05, 07:59 PM
One person said Monday that the Mets may pursue a number of free agents, including Tom Gordon, the Yankees' setup man the past two seasons, to serve as a setup man for Wagner but not Bengie Molina nor Ramon Hernandez to be the primary successor to Mike Piazza.
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051129&content_id=1273393&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym
If Gordon was/is going to setup again, wouldn't it be with the Yankees? Unless, the Mets give him 3-years.
looks like we'll have the 21st pick in the draft.
AMYanks
11-29-05, 08:07 PM
If the Mets sign Gordon, we don't get their first round pick, I don't think. Wagner is a higher rated free agent, so their pick probably goes to Philadelphia.
ICEBERG18
11-29-05, 09:18 PM
If the Mets sign Gordon, we don't get their first round pick, I don't think. Wagner is a higher rated free agent, so their pick probably goes to Philadelphia.
Correct...
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