View Full Version : Aggressiveness for top CFer
ANSKYcm
11-25-05, 11:04 PM
Is anyone else but me dissapointed by the lack of aggressiveness toward a top notch CFer? While I am one who actually wouldn't mind having Crosby starting in CF, I also think we should go after guys like Ichiro and Vernon Wells much more aggressively before we need to resort to that. For the first time since he's been here, there may be a chance of getting Ichiro. He would be perfect as a great defensive CF with a great arm and a great leadoff bat with great speed. Also, the Mariners are looking for pitching help while shopping Gil Meche. Why not offer something like Wang, Pavano, Melky Cabrera, Phil Hughes, and money to cover some of Pavano's contract for Ichiro and Meche? The M's would get two pitchers for their rotation, a CF prospect to maybe take over for Ichiro in a year or two, and a great pitching prospect. I know noone wants to trade Wang, and I'm definetely gonna hear it for Hughes being there, but at least it brings up the fact that we could problably make a match with the M's for Ichiro.
Michaels07
11-25-05, 11:20 PM
It sounds more like a panic move.
Welcome to the new NY Yankees offseason strategy!! Everyone has been asking for it and now that it is happening people are uncomfortable.
JapanJobbers
11-25-05, 11:56 PM
The Yankees already asked about Ichiro and were told that they are not going to trade him. I would imagine that it would be the same with Wells.
I don't think any package [that would be offered] would be enough to entice Seattle to give up Ichiro. He is simply too valuable to that franchise, and I'm not just talking about on the field.
ChrisV82
11-26-05, 12:01 AM
Some caller on FAN today suggested the Yanks sign Pierre (or I guess trade for him), and if they like him, sign him as a free agent at the end of the season, and if not, let him go and pursue Andruw Jones or whomever else. Seems like it could work, but who knows?
PerfectCone
11-26-05, 12:03 AM
I've been campaigning for Pierre since last offseason. For some reason, most do not think of him as a good player. I believe he would be exactly what the Yankees need.
AMYanks
11-26-05, 12:07 AM
I've been campaigning for Pierre since last offseason. For some reason, most do not think of him as a good player. I believe he would be exactly what the Yankees need.
The Yankees don't need a bad hitting, poor fielding, weak armed CFer.
nyg02005
11-26-05, 12:07 AM
again, I hope cashman is more aggressive in finding relief pitchers.
NelsonMuntz
11-26-05, 12:09 AM
I've been campaigning for Pierre since last offseason. For some reason, most do not think of him as a good player. I believe he would be exactly what the Yankees need.
The last thing the Yankees need is a below average defensive centerfielder with a .326 OBP. We could get that (or better) from Bubba.
Flatten78
11-26-05, 12:11 AM
Welcome to the new NY Yankees offseason strategy!! Everyone has been asking for it and now that it is happening people are uncomfortable.
I couldn't have said it better myself. We were told this was coming way ahead of time.
Flatten78
11-26-05, 12:22 AM
All we should really be overly concerned about is our bullpen. Let Bubba start in center, all we need from him is his defense(we know he is solid defensively) and if he hits .250 we should be pleased with it. Let Phillips backup Giambi, and rotate them, when Giambi DH's Phillips plays first. One other thing we could possibly worry about is backup catcher, idk whats going on with that. Overall i feel ok with what we have, when was the last time the Yankees went into the following season without a major move, it's been a while.... We all wanted Cash back and now he is, im sure he has a plan in place, he knows what he is doing, everybody should relax.
SoCal Pinstriper
11-26-05, 07:04 AM
I'm in the "worried" about the bullpen camp. I'm really kind of proud of the restraint that we have shown so far in other areas.
goin for 27
11-26-05, 08:18 AM
The last thing the Yankees need is a below average defensive centerfielder with a .326 OBP. We could get that (or better) from Bubba.
I agree, except playing regularly, Bubba won't get a .326 OBP. Gotta get SOMEONE.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-26-05, 08:48 AM
I doubt Toronto would givee up Wells to a division rival, especially since they are blowing lots of money to try to contend, and they signed him relativly cheap for 5 years
longtimeyankeefan
11-26-05, 08:48 AM
Is anyone else but me dissapointed by the lack of aggressiveness toward a top notch CFer? While I am one who actually wouldn't mind having Crosby starting in CF, I also think we should go after guys like Ichiro and Vernon Wells much more aggressively before we need to resort to that. For the first time since he's been here, there may be a chance of getting Ichiro. He would be perfect as a great defensive CF with a great arm and a great leadoff bat with great speed. Also, the Mariners are looking for pitching help while shopping Gil Meche. Why not offer something like Wang, Pavano, Melky Cabrera, Phil Hughes, and money to cover some of Pavano's contract for Ichiro and Meche? The M's would get two pitchers for their rotation, a CF prospect to maybe take over for Ichiro in a year or two, and a great pitching prospect. I know noone wants to trade Wang, and I'm definetely gonna hear it for Hughes being there, but at least it brings up the fact that we could problably make a match with the M's for Ichiro.
Let me understand something here -
You are advocating sending Pavano, who had an admittedly depressing freshman year with the Yankees, Wang, who has shown he can pitch in NY while making the major league minimum, and our #1 & #3 prospects (according to PinstripePlus.com) to Seattle for an aging Ichiro and a career 44-36/4.70 pitcher whose stats are grossly influenced by pitching in Seattle (24-15/3.96 at Safeco vs 20-21/5.45 away from home)?
Boy, am I glad that Cashman is still in charge of the Yankee front office.
The Yankees don't need a bad hitting, poor fielding, weak armed CFer.
Yeah, we tried that last year- didn't work
rightfielder21
11-26-05, 08:51 AM
I've been campaigning for Pierre since last offseason. For some reason, most do not think of him as a good player.
The reasons have been well documented...
rightfielder21
11-26-05, 08:52 AM
Let me understand something here -
You are advocating sending Pavano, who had an admittedly depressing freshman year with the Yankees, Wang, who has shown he can pitch in NY while making the major league minimum, and our #1 & #3 prospects (according to PinstripePlus.com) to Seattle for an aging Ichiro and a career 44-36/4.70 pitcher whose stats are grossly influenced by pitching in Seattle (24-15/3.96 at Safeco vs 20-21/5.45 away from home)?
Yes, that appears to be it... :P
longtimeyankeefan
11-26-05, 08:58 AM
Yes, that appears to be it... :P
The question remains - WHY:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
I like Ichiro and think he might make a good addition to this team, although I worry about what will happen to the Japanese players as they age - there is no real history to be able to guage from, since Ichiro was the first position player to make it here in MLB.
Still, giving up two/fifths of your starting rotation and #1 & #3 prospects to fill a CF hole and get back a #4/#5 starter doesn't seem to be exactly the most sensible trade.
Menche ~= Pavano (given last season's #s), so Ichiro (who wants out of Seattle) = Wang + Hughes + Cabrera? I think not.
TheScooter
11-26-05, 09:13 AM
It won't be Damon
The Yankees obviously are interested in the younger, quicker Damon, but thus far have been scared away by Boras' quest for a deal that clones the one Bernie Williams received in 1999.
One Bomber executive observed: "Look at that contract, and see how we overpaid at the back end. We won't do that again"
Another official said the Yankees could be tempted to sign Damon to a four-year deal. Anything beyond that, however, seems non-negotiable. He said, "[Boras] has his head in the clouds" asking for such a mammoth commitment
Scotty is worried
Boras said, flatly, "I don't understand why [the Yankees] are looking at Giles."
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4MjIzNjUmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
ring403
11-26-05, 09:21 AM
Scotty is worried
Boras said, flatly, "I don't understand why [the Yankees] are looking at Giles."
Simple. Giles will sign a 3 year deal.
Both Wilkerson and Bradley are non-tender candidates. Why tip your hand? Wait to see who is really available.
It's November 26, everyone relax. This will be a much better offseason than last year even if we stand pat. That was a disaster we're still paying for.
swityak11
11-26-05, 09:32 AM
Vernon Wells isn't going to be available. He's signed to a very nice contract through 07 and is one of top offensive keys to that Blue Jay lineup. I see no reason for them to get rid of him.
naugatucknugget
11-26-05, 09:58 AM
I don't know what the contract situation is on Jay Payton but I think he would be a good fit as the Yankee centerfielder. Any comments?
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-26-05, 10:09 AM
If we get Wilkerson Giles or Bradley which seem to be the top 3 canidates right now id be pretty damn happy.
ring403
11-26-05, 10:18 AM
I don't know what the contract situation is on Jay Payton but I think he would be a good fit as the Yankee centerfielder. Any comments?
Oakland picked up Payton's $4 million option for 2006. I think he would be a consideration if the price was right, but there isn't alot of incentive for the A's to deal him.
swityak11
11-26-05, 10:19 AM
I don't know what the contract situation is on Jay Payton but I think he would be a good fit as the Yankee centerfielder. Any comments?The A's picked up his $4 million option for 06.
I don't think Payton is a very good fit. He's mediocre defensively as a CF and his OBP has been steadily declinely for the past few years. It's now hovering well below league average.
Evil Empire
11-26-05, 10:24 AM
Why do we need Meche?
ring403
11-26-05, 10:43 AM
The A's picked up his $4 million option for 06.
I don't think Payton is a very good fit. He's mediocre defensively as a CF and his OBP has been steadily declinely for the past few years. By what metric is Payton a below average CF?
Mattpat11
11-26-05, 11:03 AM
All we should really be overly concerned about is our bullpen. Let Bubba start in center, all we need from him is his defense(we know he is solid defensively) and if he hits .250 we should be pleased with it. Let Phillips backup Giambi, and rotate them, when Giambi DH's Phillips plays first. One other thing we could possibly worry about is backup catcher, idk whats going on with that. Overall i feel ok with what we have, when was the last time the Yankees went into the following season without a major move, it's been a while.... We all wanted Cash back and now he is, im sure he has a plan in place, he knows what he is doing, everybody should relax. Do you really think the team could withstand the bats of both Phillips and Crosby every day? Hell, we don't even know what we're getting from Jorge.
bobbymagee
11-26-05, 11:05 AM
I disagree with the pursuit of a experienced, expensive centerfielder, and the loss of any prospects along with a young , playoff experienced pitcher, Carl Pavano. Obvious, the yanks must have a young fleet footed , competent hitter in our minors besides Bubba Gump!
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-26-05, 12:15 PM
Lets get us Vernon...
ComeBackShane47
11-26-05, 12:24 PM
Lets get us Vernon...
Wells might be one of the cheaper (relatively) options, unless the Phillies want to trade Abreu for him.
But as most have pointed out, its really stupid for us yankees fans to get so worried about all this now. The winter meetings havent happened, and we can be sure that plenty of quality guys wont be tendered contracts later on, so no need to panic.
GrouchoNYY
11-26-05, 12:56 PM
If you think that Bubba can play a top notch CF, then surround him with quality at all other positions. Don't give up the ranch just to get a "name" who may be no better than what you have. In addition, if some of the minor leaguers progress, a center fielder may be ready by sometime in 2007.
Here's a goofy name to bring in as dh/back up catcher--Mike Piazza. You could then have only Crosby as a weak hitter. Posada could dh occasionally when not catching.
When the non-tenders come in you can take a shot without losing anyone.
swityak11
11-26-05, 01:18 PM
By what metric is Payton a below average CF?Checking out UZR numbers, it seems that I'm wrong. My fault.
Munson's 'Stash
11-26-05, 01:42 PM
Both Wilkerson and Bradley are non-tender candidates. Why tip your hand? Wait to see who is really available.
Bradley is a possible non-tender, but would you really want him in the Yankees clubhouse? Do you see Sheff keeping him in line?
I doubt Wilkerson is non-tendered; too many teams need CF's and value what he does. I'm sure another team would jump in and offer a B prospect just to make sure they got him. Isn't he also very popular in Washington? I doubt he'd just get kicked to the curb. Still, very little is going to happen before the meetings.
I love the Boras quote. It's almost like Marrie Antoinette asking what the peasants could possibly have to be upset about...
NelsonMuntz
11-26-05, 01:56 PM
I doubt Wilkerson is non-tendered; too many teams need CF's and value what he does. I'm sure another team would jump in and offer a B prospect just to make sure they got him. Isn't he also very popular in Washington? I doubt he'd just get kicked to the curb. Still, very little is going to happen before the meetings.
He's actually very under-appreciated in Washington. Jim Bowden has publicly stated his desire to acquire a "gold glove caliber" centerfiedler, whatever that means. Even more ridiculous, a lot of fans have bought into the notion that Wilkerson "strikes out too much". He's not as popular in DC as he was earlier in the season.
Edit: Here is a good article that speculates on the Nat's front office plans for Wilkerson: http://dcbb.blogspot.com/2005/11/spoonful-of-sugar-for-brad-wilkerson.html
This isn't the first time that Wilkerson's been attacked anonymously. Yes, his season was disappointing. But throw him in the same bucket with Livan, Guzman, Vidro, Castilla, Wilson, and several others.
So why single him out?
To ship him out of town.
Wilkerson is arbitration-eligible. He made $3MM this year, and will probably be closer to $6 million next season, despite the disappointing numbers. Wilkerson will be a free agent in two years, and his agent, Scott Boras, doesn't understand the meaning of 'hometown' discount... Wilkerson isn't the toolsy, speedy kind of outfielder that Bowden lusts for. And given his down year and the potential cost next year, the tea leaves (or animal bones, if you prefer) are lining up.
Bradley is a possible non-tender, but would you really want him in the Yankees clubhouse? Do you see Sheff keeping him in line?
I doubt Wilkerson is non-tendered; too many teams need CF's and value what he does. I'm sure another team would jump in and offer a B prospect just to make sure they got him. Isn't he also very popular in Washington? I doubt he'd just get kicked to the curb. Still, very little is going to happen before the meetings.
I love the Boras quote. It's almost like Marrie Antoinette asking what the peasants could possibly have to be upset about...
Wilkerson made $3M last year and will get an arbitration raise. He's currently not penciled into the Nats' starting lineup. For a team with their kind of budget constraints, to not at least force them to make a tender decision on Wilkerson is jumping the gun.
Munson's 'Stash
11-26-05, 02:19 PM
He's actually very under-appreciated in Washington. Jim Bowden has publicly stated his desire to acquire a "gold glove caliber" centerfieler, whatever that means. Even more ridiculous, a lot of fans have bought into the notion that Wilkerson "strikes out too much". He's not as popular in DC as he was earlier in the season.
I knew that Bowden probably didn't value him (he of the 'tools' fixation), but I thought Wilkerson was still pretty popular with the fanbase. Oh well.
But that still doesn't invalidate my point; at least the Cubs and Red Sox still need a CF. Even if the Cubs (and Dusty Baker) don't value a player like Wilkerson, you know the RS do. Why wouldn't whoever's running their FO (the night janitor?) offer to trade a B prospect for Wilkerson? Hell, they could send Adam Stern (who if not a GG, at least has the speed and arm to play a good CF) over in trade. Bowden could satisfy his tools lust and call it a cost cutting move.
I don't see Bowden turning down something in order to get nothing.
I knew that Bowden probably didn't value him (he of the 'tools' fixation), but I thought Wilkerson was still pretty popular with the fanbase. Oh well.
But that still doesn't invalidate my point; at least the Cubs and Red Sox still need a CF. Even if the Cubs (and Dusty Baker) don't value a player like Wilkerson, you know the RS do. Why wouldn't whoever's running their FO (the night janitor?) offer to trade a B prospect for Wilkerson? Hell, they could send Adam Stern (who if not a GG, at least has the speed and arm to play a good CF) over in trade. Bowden could satisfy his tools lust and call it a cost cutting move.
I don't see Bowden turning down something in order to get nothing.
Because everyone is playing the same waiting game and not offering anything.
Munson's 'Stash
11-26-05, 02:24 PM
Because everyone is playing the same waiting game and not offering anything.
Care to bet that this changes between the start of the Meetings and the arb deadline?
Kulish29
11-26-05, 03:40 PM
I knew that Bowden probably didn't value him (he of the 'tools' fixation), but I thought Wilkerson was still pretty popular with the fanbase. Oh well.
But that still doesn't invalidate my point; at least the Cubs and Red Sox still need a CF. Even if the Cubs (and Dusty Baker) don't value a player like Wilkerson, you know the RS do. Why wouldn't whoever's running their FO (the night janitor?) offer to trade a B prospect for Wilkerson? Hell, they could send Adam Stern (who if not a GG, at least has the speed and arm to play a good CF) over in trade. Bowden could satisfy his tools lust and call it a cost cutting move.
I don't see Bowden turning down something in order to get nothing.
The Sox cant trade Stern. He wasnt on their ML roster long enough.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/columnists/askba.html
A Rule 5 draftee must spend 90 days on the active roster before he can be demoted without being exposed to waivers. The Red Sox face that situation with 2004 draftee Adam Stern, who didn't quite make it to 90 days this year.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/columnists/askbarule5.html
But here's the kicker: To prevent teams from drafting players willy-nilly, each Rule 5 pick must be kept in the major leagues the entire following season or be offered back to his former team for half of the $50,000 selection price.
Munson's 'Stash
11-26-05, 04:26 PM
The Sox cant trade Stern. He wasnt on their ML roster long enough.
Stern was one of the players rumored to be traded the Rockies in the deal for Bigbie that was cancelled (I believe it was supposed to work out to Stern, their catching prospect, and a minor league pitcher for Bigbie and Shealy).
I could be wrong, but I think there is a loophole that would allow for a player aquired through the Rule V draft to be traded; the condition is that the player must then complete the remaining service time requirement with his new team. In this case Stern would need to stay on the Nats ML roster for 18 days.
Even if I am wrong about Stern, and he can't be traded, it doesn't really disprove my point; he was a hypothetical example. Wilkerson is good enough that someone will offer up a B prospect for him to make sure that they get him if he's a target. If a player is healthy and any good he would have to have severe personality issues (like Milton Bradley, or AJ Perzynkwskcywz) to not at least warrant a low risk trade.
If Wilkerson were a target for the Red Sox they could throw another OF prospect at Bowden, say Moss. Do you think Bowden would turn down a prospect in order to just non-tender Wilkerson?
Kulish29
11-26-05, 04:55 PM
Stern was one of the players rumored to be traded the Rockies in the deal for Bigbie that was cancelled (I believe it was supposed to work out to Stern, their catching prospect, and a minor league pitcher for Bigbie and Shealy).
I could be wrong, but I think there is a loophole that would allow for a player aquired through the Rule V draft to be traded; the condition is that the player must then complete the remaining service time requirement with his new team. In this case Stern would need to stay on the Nats ML roster for 18 days.
Even if I am wrong about Stern, and he can't be traded, it doesn't really disprove my point; he was a hypothetical example. Wilkerson is good enough that someone will offer up a B prospect for him to make sure that they get him if he's a target. If a player is healthy and any good he would have to have severe personality issues (like Milton Bradley, or AJ Perzynkwskcywz) to not at least warrant a low risk trade.
If Wilkerson were a target for the Red Sox they could throw another OF prospect at Bowden, say Moss. Do you think Bowden would turn down a prospect in order to just non-tender Wilkerson?
Dont you think if the Sox offered a B prospect, the Yankees would come right back and offer a better one? The Sox just traded some of their best talent. I doubt they go and trade anymore.
MTYankee23
11-26-05, 05:08 PM
Dont you think if the Sox offered a B prospect, the Yankees would come right back and offer a better one? The Sox just traded some of their best talent. I doubt they go and trade anymore.
Their system right now is admittedly deeper. Which of our prospects at this point would you consider ahead of Brandon Moss, and do we think we'd trade away those prospects for someone who might become non-tendered. This is another situation where we've made mistakes by signing relivers and mediocre starters and giving up high draft picks in the process.
For example for this year's bullpen instead of signing the "proven veteran" reliever du jour. We'd be far better served looking for internal solutions and potentially looking forward to the callups of guys like Steven White and J.B. Cox to take on major bullepn roles. We have the most important piece in Rivera already in place.
Munson's 'Stash
11-26-05, 05:16 PM
Dont you think if the Sox offered a B prospect, the Yankees would come right back and offer a better one? The Sox just traded some of their best talent. I doubt they go and trade anymore.
The Red Sox have a much deeper farm system than the Yankees. I suggested Moss, who according to Sox Prospects (www.soxprospects.com) is their #6 prospect (granted after jumping 2 spots), and he's already involved in trade rumors, which would seem to indicate that he's available.
If the Yankees turn it into a bidding war you'll have to top Moss, and that probably gets you upto Duncan, Hughes, and Melky pretty quick. That's a long way from picking up Wilkerson as a non-tender. Furthermore the idea that it's a bidding war implies that the Yankees aren't sitting around waiting to see what happens.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-26-05, 05:18 PM
I think Ruben Sierra should be our starting center fielder. He is like a gazelle
MTYankee23
11-26-05, 05:23 PM
I think Ruben Sierra should be our starting center fielder. He is like a gazelle
If by we you mean your slow pitch softball team, then yes, he should.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-26-05, 05:25 PM
If by we you mean your slow pitch softball team, then yes, he should.
Do I detect a slight amount of sarcasm directed towards me? If not, then I agree, Sierra is incredible
Johnny O
11-26-05, 05:36 PM
I agree, except playing regularly, Bubba won't get a .326 OBP. Gotta get SOMEONE.
Crosby is free, SOMEONE will cost the Yanks SOMETHING. It's still very early, be patient.
Kulish29
11-26-05, 07:55 PM
The Red Sox have a much deeper farm system than the Yankees. I suggested Moss, who according to Sox Prospects (www.soxprospects.com) is their #6 prospect (granted after jumping 2 spots), and he's already involved in trade rumors, which would seem to indicate that he's available.
If the Yankees turn it into a bidding war you'll have to top Moss, and that probably gets you upto Duncan, Hughes, and Melky pretty quick. That's a long way from picking up Wilkerson as a non-tender. Furthermore the idea that it's a bidding war implies that the Yankees aren't sitting around waiting to see what happens.
I disagree that the Sox system is a lot deeper than the Yankees. Especially after the trade they just made. They may have a couple of more guys in the higher levels than the Yankees, which would make their system rated higher, but I disagree that it is a much deeper system.
Munson's 'Stash
11-27-05, 04:41 PM
I disagree that the Sox system is a lot deeper than the Yankees. Especially after the trade they just made. They may have a couple of more guys in the higher levels than the Yankees, which would make their system rated higher, but I disagree that it is a much deeper system.
Bolding is mine.
Exactly how else would you define depth? Saying that we have a bunch of guys in A ball who may develop enough to contribute is not depth. Everyone has a bunch of guys in A ball with a ton of potential. Unless that potential has been realized and the players are progressing into the upper levels of your farm system you do not have depth.
Players that will be in the majors in a year or two provide depth by either providing talent in trades to help the ML team, or by being ready to step into a role on that ML team. The number of guys who flame out in the low minors is too high to say any of them are sure things, or that they are providing more depth than another team's prospects who look to be very close to being ready to contribute at a ML level.
I still don't understand why we aren't in serious discussions with the Nationals for Wilkerson/Church.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 05:29 PM
I still don't understand why we aren't in serious discussions with the Nationals for Wilkerson/Church.
If we were we wouldn't know about it...
If we were we wouldn't know about it...
It is also possible that Selig's inability to find the Nats an owner has hurt their front office
ring403
11-27-05, 05:55 PM
It is also possible that Selig's inability to find the Nats an owner has hurt their front office
If it were a major star with the ability to put people in the seats, the lack of new ownership would likely be a negative factor in pulling off a trade, but in a relatively minor deal like trading Wilkerson, I wouldn't think there would be a problem for the current front office.
Dr. Gonzo
11-27-05, 05:55 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/11/26/bc.cb.spt.bbl.reds.pena.ap/index.html
wily mo wants a trade,
AMYanks
11-27-05, 06:15 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/11/26/bc.cb.spt.bbl.reds.pena.ap/index.html
wily mo wants a trade,
I've always found Pena to be extremely overrated by some. He's put up nice power numbers in limited time the past two years, but he's not patient enough for my liking. I suppose he could improve upon that as he matures (he's only going to be 24 next year), but he never showed enough of an eye in the minors for me to feel comfortable, expecting any improvement.
I'd take him as a 4th OFer, but since he wants to start, we wouldn't be a good fit.
I've always found Pena to be extremely overrated by some. He's put up nice power numbers in limited time the past two years, but he's not patient enough for my liking.
I'd take him as a 4th OFer, but since he wants to start, we wouldn't be a good fit.
I agree. Raw power is always intruiging but he struck out 116 times in 99 games, that is simply unacceptable.
Dooley Womack
11-27-05, 06:20 PM
I've always found Pena to be extremely overrated by some. He's put up nice power numbers in limited time the past two years, but he's not patient enough for my liking. I suppose he could improve upon that as he matures (he's only going to be 24 next year), but he never showed enough of an eye in the minors for me to feel comfortable, expecting any improvement.
I'd take him as a 4th OFer, but since he wants to start, we wouldn't be a good fit.
His inability to get on base is horrendous. I wouldn't want a player who strikes out often/walks seldom, at a 6 to 1 clip.
BobbyMurcerFan
11-28-05, 09:46 AM
Let me understand something here -
You are advocating sending Pavano, who had an admittedly depressing freshman year with the Yankees, Wang, who has shown he can pitch in NY while making the major league minimum, and our #1 & #3 prospects (according to PinstripePlus.com) to Seattle for an aging Ichiro and a career 44-36/4.70 pitcher whose stats are grossly influenced by pitching in Seattle (24-15/3.96 at Safeco vs 20-21/5.45 away from home)?
Boy, am I glad that Cashman is still in charge of the Yankee front office. :clap: :clap: :clap:
It won't be Damon
Scotty is worried
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4MjIzNjUmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
Ability + remaining shelf life makes Giles better then Damon.
Kind of simple to me.
For example for this year's bullpen instead of signing the "proven veteran" reliever du jour. We'd be far better served looking for internal solutions and potentially looking forward to the callups of guys like Steven White and J.B. Cox to take on major bullepn roles. We have the most important piece in Rivera already in place.
Actually, guys like Matt Smith and TJ Beam would be more ideal then Cox and White right now. White, if healthy, projects as a #3 starter, at worst. Cox has setup man (see Tom Gordon) written all over him, but needs a bit more experience at a higher level, which he should get starting out in Trenton in 2006.
CaptainThurman
11-28-05, 11:23 AM
I guess I'm still stunned that the Yankees weren't able to pull off something for Rowand. Thome is about the same as Giambi, and the Phillies got Rowand and two stud young pitchers for roughly the equivalent of Giambi. Jeesh.....
MTYankee23
11-28-05, 11:41 AM
Actually, guys like Matt Smith and TJ Beam would be more ideal then Cox and White right now. White, if healthy, projects as a #3 starter, at worst. Cox has setup man (see Tom Gordon) written all over him, but needs a bit more experience at a higher level, which he should get starting out in Trenton in 2006.
I completely agree with this. In the short term, Smith and Beam are viable options to fill out a bullpen.
I also see White starting at some point, but there wouldn't be anything wrong with using him as a setup man much like the Sox did with Papelbon.
NYDCYankee
11-29-05, 03:55 AM
I think Loaiza leaving the Nats might be a bonus for us. Maybe we can convince them into taking one of our surplus starters for Wilkerson or Church now to fill the Esteban hole.
NelsonMuntz
11-29-05, 08:52 AM
I think Loaiza leaving the Nats might be a bonus for us. Maybe we can convince them into taking one of our surplus starters for Wilkerson or Church now to fill the Esteban hole.
Let's hope so.
ring403
11-30-05, 08:45 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/01/sports/baseball/01yanks.html
"The most important area is the bullpen right now," Cashman said. "That's a much easier area to try to deal with than center field."
Two center fielders who appealed to the Yankees - Mike Cameron and Aaron Rowand - have already been traded. Others are available, like the Dodgers' Milton Bradley and the Marlins' Juan Pierre, but the Yankees have no interest in Pierre if Florida continues to ask for second baseman Robinson Cano in return.
If the Phillies make Jason Michaels available, he could be an option for the Yankees. The Rangers are reportedly pursuing Pierre, and acquiring him may make Gary Matthews Jr. or Laynce Nix expendable.
The Yankees' initial outfield target, the free agent Brian Giles, seems more likely to sign elsewhere. Joe Bick, Giles's agent, said the Yankees were still an option, but he added that he had not spoken to Cashman since last weekend.
AMYanks
11-30-05, 09:22 PM
Jerry Hairston Jr!
I'd MUCH rather Michaels or Wilkerson.
I'd MUCH rather Michaels or Wilkerson.
But Hairston will cost little, is very versatile and can put up some very nice numbers if healthy.
AMYanks
11-30-05, 09:55 PM
But Hairston will cost little, is very versatile and can put up some very nice numbers if healthy.
I don't think that either Wilkerson or Michaels would cost much more (maybe Wilkerson, MAYBE), but I'd be willing to do it. Even if they did cost more, I just think they're better players. Both can play all three OF positions, and Wilkerson can also play 1B. I know, not AS versatile, but still good.
And, just making a quick OPS+ check, it only reinforces my wishes for rather having Wilkerson or Michaels.
Hairston Jr. - 87 OPS+
Michaels - 113 OPS+
Wilkerson - 111 OPS+
I'm not real sure how good a CFer Hairston was, but I do know that Wilkerson is a solid CFer, and Michaels is above average.
I don't think that either Wilkerson or Michaels would cost much more (maybe Wilkerson, MAYBE), but I'd be willing to do it. Even if they did cost more, I just think they're better players. Both can play all three OF positions, and Wilkerson can also play 1B. I know, not AS versatile, but still good.
And, just making a quick OPS+ check, it only reinforces my wishes for rather having Wilkerson or Michaels.
Hairston Jr. - 87 OPS+
Michaels - 113 OPS+
Wilkerson - 111 OPS+
I'm not real sure how good a CFer Hairston was, but I do know that Wilkerson is a solid CFer, and Michaels is above average.
Considering he can also back up 2b and 3b, Hairston is one of my favorite options. If you spread his 2004 numbers with the Orioles out to a full season, you would have a .305-5-50-25 SB with .378 OBP and .775 OPS
ring403
12-01-05, 06:52 AM
I don't think that either Wilkerson or Michaels would cost much more (maybe Wilkerson, MAYBE), but I'd be willing to do it.
Philly isn't being reasonable in asking for Wang:
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58702.htm
Of course, this being the Yankees, if Damon is still out there in early January, the Yankees could get with agent Scott Boras to see what can be worked out.
As for trades, Milton Bradley, Juan Pierre, Jason Michaels and Steve Finley all have warts. Bradley's attitude has scared some in the Yankee organization although he fits the Yankees' need to get younger (he's 27) and has the speed and arm to cover Yankee Stadium's vast center field. And he is a switch-hitter. If Giles signs with the Dodgers, Bradley will surely be dealt.
They believe Pierre is on the decline, the Philles asked for Chien-Ming Wang in exchange for Michaels, who has never been a regular, and Finley, 40, is coming off a season in which a right-shoulder injury saw him bat .222 with 12 homers and 54 RBIs in 112 games.
Jim Roche
12-01-05, 07:01 AM
Leave Bubba in CF....Let's see what he can do from the 9 hole with 300 - 400 at bats.
The more he plays, the more comfortable he'll be and let his talent take over....
He's going to surprise some people...
Personally, I am very tired of teams asking for Yankee starting pitchers and giving us "potential" in return. Other teams "prospects" are "suspects" as far as I am concerned.
noneckwilliams
12-01-05, 07:26 AM
The Phillies want Wang for Michaels? God Almighty. Everyone's still trying to hold us up. The price for a CF will eventually come down. Remember Cash held out against the Rockies original demands for Chacon and ended up getting a bettr deal.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 08:00 AM
Leave Bubba in CF....Let's see what he can do from the 9 hole with 300 - 400 at bats.
The more he plays, the more comfortable he'll be and let his talent take over....
He's going to surprise some people...
Personally, I am very tired of teams asking for Yankee starting pitchers and giving us "potential" in return. Other teams "prospects" are "suspects" as far as I am concerned.
NO
I can't take Bubba Crosby playing Center Field for the New York Yankees. He is not a good player. Period.
Career numbers = .221 .253 .301 .554
There is NOTHING to suggest that Crosby will excel just by playing everyday. In fact, it is FAR more likely that he will be completely exposed. Tim Kurkjian
Tim Kurkjian on ESPN said this morning that the Yanks may go with Crosby until summer, and then see if Cameron becomes available again. I almost choked on my coffee.
I simply cannot understand the Yankees and their stance on Centerfield. EVERYONE knew that Bernie was completely toast last year, but they dealt away Lofton, and just suffered all year. At this point, I am hoping they bring back Bernie as a bench player, if they in fact decide to go with Bubba.
I appreciate Bubba's effort and scrappiness. That said, he is not a starting Major League player. The guy is not suddenly going to become a good player the year he turns 30, just because he is likable.
I understand the bind that Cashman is in, but he HAS to do better. The payroll is a joke, there is no flexibility, and the only decent chips, Cano and Wang, need to stay. This precludes really improving the team. However, there HAS to be a deal for someone better than Bubba Crosby.
I have held out all off season so far that a deal will be made. If Kurjian is correct, this will be very depressing.
Jim Roche
12-01-05, 08:45 AM
"However, there HAS to be a deal for someone better than Bubba Crosby."
Well, after Dec. 7th when the non-tendered names come out (Luis Matos ??), then you might get your wish...
Otherwise, Crosby will be our CF....
(I am not so concerned about his career numbers as he has had only 163 at ML at bats and if I was Torre, I wouldn't be concerned, either)
wileedog
12-01-05, 12:07 PM
The payroll is a joke, there is no flexibility, and the only decent chips, Cano and Wang, need to stay. This precludes really improving the team. However, there HAS to be a deal for someone better than Bubba Crosby.
You just summed up your own conundrum.
Unless some other team gets stupid on us (or for us, as the case may be) I have trouble seeing how we are not going to start Bubba on opening day. Or possibly Bradley, who will implode by mid-season and then we'll have Bubba finish the season anyway.
Philly has no compelling reason to move Michaels. He's 29, extremely versatile, and while he is arbitration eligible his pricetag shouldn't become too prohibitive as he has yet to play a season as a full time starter.
The Nats might move Wilkerson, but you can bet they are going to play chicken with us down to the wire to try and get Wang or Cano out of the deal. He's more expensive, but not so much so that they can't wait us out til mid-season if need be.
ChrisV82
12-01-05, 12:40 PM
The Phillies want Wang for Michaels? God Almighty. Everyone's still trying to hold us up. The price for a CF will eventually come down. Remember Cash held out against the Rockies original demands for Chacon and ended up getting a bettr deal.
After getting Rowand and two top pitching prospects from the White Sox in exchange for Thome and some cash, the Phillies must think they are entitled to great deals on their part.
I Love Wang
12-01-05, 12:41 PM
"However, there HAS to be a deal for someone better than Bubba Crosby."
Well, after Dec. 7th when the non-tendered names come out (Luis Matos ??), then you might get your wish...
Otherwise, Crosby will be our CF....
(I am not so concerned about his career numbers as he has had only 163 at ML at bats and if I was Torre, I wouldn't be concerned, either)
I'm concerned, because his minor leaguer numbers suck too. I'm really hoping that somebody decent gets NTed. Matos wouldn't be terrible. Melky is playing well in the DWL, I really hope he's ready by July.
We need to look outside the box. I feel somewhat confident that if we get creative we can come away with guys like Ryan Church, Rob Mackowiak or Jerry Hairston Jr. They aren't necessarily pure centerfielders but they can pla the position rather well and have some legit offensive upside.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 01:08 PM
Otherwise, Crosby will be our CF....
(I am not so concerned about his career numbers as he has had only 163 at ML at bats and if I was Torre, I wouldn't be concerned, either)
You should be very concerned about any 29 year old with a career 163 AB's in MLB.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 01:09 PM
[QUOTE=wileedog]You just summed up your own conundrum.
QUOTE]
I know, I am just pissed!! :)
It is so depressing to think of the New York Yankees trotting out Bubba Crosby in CF to start a season. :(
Jglaubman
12-01-05, 04:11 PM
Why are so many people hating Bubba in center? Our offense has plenty of good hitters, all we need a guy who can field (which Bubba does). Obviously, I would love a guy like Ichiro, or Vernon Wells in center, but DO NOT trade any top prospects, because I would be 100% OK with Bubba in center Opening Day
whalers
12-01-05, 04:24 PM
Why are so many people hating Bubba in center? Our offense has plenty of good hitters, all we need a guy who can field (which Bubba does). Obviously, I would love a guy like Ichiro, or Vernon Wells in center, but DO NOT trade any top prospects, because I would be 100% OK with Bubba in center Opening Day
I think its because when fans think of CF for the Yankees they think big names and big production. The fact of the matter is that the Yankees have plenty of offensive production to carry Bubba as a nine hole hitter. Also given what the Yankees got out of CF offensively last offseason with Bernie and Womack it wouldnt surprise me if Bubba matched or even topped those numbers if given the chance.
Clemens831
12-01-05, 04:34 PM
I think its because when fans think of CF for the Yankees they think big names and big production. The fact of the matter is that the Yankees have plenty of offensive production to carry Bubba as a nine hole hitter. Also given what the Yankees got out of CF offensively last offseason with Bernie and Womack it wouldnt surprise me if Bubba matched or even topped those numbers if given the chance.
The thing is, I'm not (and I imagine many of the anti-Bubba fans will agree) willing to sacrifice the production for the type of defense that Bubba would provide in CF. Pro-Bubba people seem to think that its acceptable to have him as a hole in our lineup because of the runs he'll save us in CF. But it's not like he's the second coming of Torii Hunter...I mean, it's not an Ozzie Smith type of situation. His defense ISN'T gold glove caliber...he's not an "elite" defender. He has some range and he hustles, yes, but I don't think his arm is particularly strong...aside from that, he's nothing special in center. Certainly not special enough to allow him to start in CF for the Yanks with the type of numbers he puts up at the plate.
whalers
12-01-05, 04:37 PM
The thing is, I'm not (and I imagine many of the anti-Bubba fans will agree) willing to sacrifice the production for the type of defense that Bubba would provide in CF. Pro-Bubba people seem to think that its acceptable to have him as a hole in our lineup because of the runs he'll save us in CF. But it's not like he's the second coming of Torii Hunter...I mean, it's not an Ozzie Smith type of situation. His defense ISN'T gold glove caliber...he's not an "elite" defender. He has some range and he hustles, yes, but I don't think his arm is particularly strong...aside from that, he's nothing special in center. Certainly not special enough to allow him to start in CF for the Yanks with the type of numbers he puts up at the plate.
He is a much better defender than Bernie or Womack was last season. If there is a viable upgrade I'd take it but there are some people around here that act as if the world would end if Bubba started in CF next season.
Jglaubman
12-01-05, 04:42 PM
He is a much better defender than Bernie or Womack was last season. If there is a viable upgrade I'd take it but there are some people around here that act as if the world would end if Bubba started in CF next season.
Exactly. If we could get a Gold Glove Center Fielder for none of our top prospects, I would be all over it. But, why trade a guy like Duncan when we have Bubba who can field fine.
Clemens831
12-01-05, 05:56 PM
Exactly. If we could get a Gold Glove Center Fielder for none of our top prospects, I would be all over it. But, why trade a guy like Duncan when we have Bubba who can field fine.
Thing is...we can get a GREAT defensive CFer w/o sacrificing prospects (read: Milton Bradley). So the option is there. And everyone thought the world would end when we brought in a fussy player like Sheffield...well, it didn't. And for the amount of talent he's got, I'm willing to give Bradley a shot.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 06:05 PM
I think its because when fans think of CF for the Yankees they think big names and big production. The fact of the matter is that the Yankees have plenty of offensive production to carry Bubba as a nine hole hitter. Also given what the Yankees got out of CF offensively last offseason with Bernie and Womack it wouldnt surprise me if Bubba matched or even topped those numbers if given the chance.
Not me. CF is a critical position, and Bubba is an average CF'er defensively, and he can't hit a lick. He is not a 9 hole hitter, he is not an MLB caliber hitter. I am concerned because there are 9 precious starting offensive positions for any AL team. (includes the DH)
The 9 everyday players should be the 9 best players that you have on the team.
Bubba does not belong in MLB, never mind starting in CF.
Bernie last year (not good) 249 .321 .367 .688 with 31 extra base hits, and 64 RBI.
I bet that Bubba, if he were to play the whole season, (mercifully, it would be over by the trading deadline) will not sniff ANY category. He will be mercilessly exposed, and the slumps will border on amazing.
Jglaubman
12-01-05, 06:19 PM
Bubba is an average CF'er defensively, and he can't hit a lick. He is not a 9 hole hitter, he is not an MLB caliber hitter. I am concerned because there are 9 precious starting offensive positions for any AL team. (includes the DH)
He did hit .327 in September and October with 55 AB.
And, that's not even the point. We don't need offense, we need cheap defense.
Kulish29
12-01-05, 06:36 PM
He did hit .327 in September and October with 55 AB.
And, that's not even the point. We don't need offense, we need cheap defense.
There's no such thing as too much offense.
Bubba Crosby is a 4th outfielder. Nothing more. He should not start. He would create a black hole in the line-up.
Thankfully this is a moot point because there's no way Crosby will be the starting CF'er for the Yankees in 2006.
jimmykey2
12-01-05, 06:54 PM
Not me. CF is a critical position, and Bubba is an average CF'er defensively, and he can't hit a lick. He is not a 9 hole hitter, he is not an MLB caliber hitter. I am concerned because there are 9 precious starting offensive positions for any AL team. (includes the DH)
The 9 everyday players should be the 9 best players that you have on the team.
Bubba does not belong in MLB, never mind starting in CF.
Bernie last year (not good) 249 .321 .367 .688 with 31 extra base hits, and 64 RBI.
I bet that Bubba, if he were to play the whole season, (mercifully, it would be over by the trading deadline) will not sniff ANY category. He will be mercilessly exposed, and the slumps will border on amazing.
I'm not saying Bubba will hit .300 in his career, but to say he doesn't belong in the Majors is pure stupidity. If Bubba hit .250 and had a .330-.350 OBP, he would be fine in CF for the Yanks. However, there's no guarantee of that. My fellow Yankee fans must realize that it's not imperative to have a .280/.375/.475 player at every position. An adequate hitter/good fielder will do.
NelsonMuntz
12-01-05, 06:58 PM
There's no such thing as too much offense.
Bubba Crosby is a 4th outfielder. Nothing more. He should not start. He would create a black hole in the line-up.
Thankfully this is a moot point because there's no way Crosby will be the starting CF'er for the Yankees in 2006.
Agree completely on your first two points. Hoping like hell you're right on your last point.
Jglaubman
12-01-05, 07:00 PM
Bubba Crosby is a 4th outfielder. Nothing more. He should not start. He would create a black hole in the line-up.
How is hitting .270 in 100 AB a black-hole in the offense.
How is hitting .270 in 100 AB a black-hole in the offense.
His OBP was .304. His SA was .327. OPS was .631.
He is small and has little power. He does not have good plate discipline. He isn't even a particularly good base runner.
It would be sad if the franchise of Joe, Mickey, Bobby, Bernie,and many more opened with little Bubba in the center of the OF.
They must do better and they will. Had they done so last year, they would have at least beaten the Angels if not the White Sox.
Flatten78
12-01-05, 07:31 PM
why is everybody being so critical of bubba crosby, we're all judging him on such little playing time. with our luck we would trade bubba to another team and he would become an allstar. we need to give this kid a chance.
Mattpat11
12-01-05, 07:33 PM
I'm not saying Bubba will hit .300 in his career, but to say he doesn't belong in the Majors is pure stupidity. Then why wouldn't any team play him for seven years? There is such a thing as a AAAA player, and Bubba is a prime example.
Mattpat11
12-01-05, 07:35 PM
why is everybody being so critical of bubba crosby, we're all judging him on such little playing time. with our luck we would trade bubba to another team and he would become an allstar. we need to give this kid a chance.Hes going to be 30. He is what he is. Players dont tend to become good at 30.
Mattpat11
12-01-05, 07:49 PM
He is a much better defender than Bernie or Womack was last season. I'm sure you could pick someone out of the stands who could be better defensively than that combo. But that doesn't mean we should put their negative offense in the lineup
Jglaubman
12-01-05, 08:14 PM
Look, right now, if we don't trade or sign anybody Crosby is our best option. I think everyone will agree on that. Now, why waste valuable draft picks by signing someone or give up prospects and trade. Crosby showed he could bunt (sacrifice and for a hit), he can steal a base, and most importantly he has great range and can catch. Now, if we could get a cheap outfielder who can field, I would be for it. But why waste.
Mattpat11
12-01-05, 08:56 PM
Look, right now, if we don't trade or sign anybody Crosby is our best option.. If we do nothing, he's our only option. Which is why its imperative that we do something.
Clemens831
12-01-05, 09:44 PM
why is everybody being so critical of bubba crosby, we're all judging him on such little playing time. with our luck we would trade bubba to another team and he would become an allstar. we need to give this kid a chance.
He is not a kid. He's obviously HAD chances (in the minors) and hasn't proven himself yet. He's almost 30 and that shows something. He doesn't really deserve any more time.
Clemens831
12-01-05, 09:49 PM
Look, right now, if we don't trade or sign anybody Crosby is our best option. I think everyone will agree on that. Now, why waste valuable draft picks by signing someone or give up prospects and trade. Crosby showed he could bunt (sacrifice and for a hit), he can steal a base, and most importantly he has great range and can catch. Now, if we could get a cheap outfielder who can field, I would be for it. But why waste.
Crosby really didn't show much in terms of bunting, actually. He had one sacrifice bunt this season. And 5 stolen bases. He has some speed, yeah...but he's not a real base-stealer. And I wouldn't classify his range as "great." Is it better than Bernie or Womack's at this point? Yeah. But great? That's stretching it.
goin for 27
12-01-05, 09:52 PM
I'm not saying Bubba will hit .300 in his career, but to say he doesn't belong in the Majors is pure stupidity. If Bubba hit .250 and had a .330-.350 OBP, he would be fine in CF for the Yanks. However, there's no guarantee of that. My fellow Yankee fans must realize that it's not imperative to have a .280/.375/.475 player at every position. An adequate hitter/good fielder will do.
Really? So Bubba is turning 30 years old, and does not even have 200 AB's in his MLB career. Come on, the guy is not a regular, he is a minor league player taking up a roster spot. I don't think it pure stupidity to question a guy at his age, who could never break in anywhere. This was a first round draft choice, who after 5 years, finally played 9 games for the dodgers.
Would I take .250, with a .330+ OBP for Bubba? Sure, but it ain't going to happen. Of course there are no guarantees of that. In fact, I think Vegas would give you incredible odds against it.
I think if there were NO other options, and Bubba had to play 150+ games, he would have John Flaherty numbers. The guy stinks. He could be a great person, but he CANNOT be the starting CF'er for the New York Yankees. THAT would be pure stupidity.
George Steinbrenner
12-02-05, 01:11 AM
i cry every night when I check the website and still see Bubba Crosby is our starting centerfielder. we gotta get crackn on that.
CA$Hman is probably cookin up some wild blockbuster deal for center. I cant wait to smellll what he's cookin! :D
throwslikesax
12-02-05, 12:01 PM
The Phillies did have dialogue with Boston about a Ramirez-for-Bobby Abreu swap, but several sources said such a deal was a longshot since the Phillies would prefer a starting pitcher in return for Abreu (they were hoping to get Javier Vazquez from Arizona but that seems unlikely) and also aren't interested in taking on Ramirez's bloated contract.http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/370947p-315532c.html
Any chance philly would take any combination of our pitchers for Abreu. Maybe if we drug their GM he'll take Wright and Pavano. Unless I'm completely wrong about Pavano. Anyone notice a pattern of Marlins pitchers being overpaid based on their stats which are skewed to pitching in a giant home park?
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