View Full Version : Yanks interested in CF Jason Michaels
ring403
11-23-05, 09:59 PM
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1124,0,1193769.story?coll=nyc-sports-headlines
The Yankees tried to get Rowand but failed, as the White Sox couldn't find a match. But now that the Phillies have Rowand, they could make another centerfielder, Jason Michaels, available. And the Yankees and Phillies have held discussions about Michaels.
Michaels, 29, played 105 games for the Phillies in 2005, hitting .304 with a .399 on-base percentage. He started 75 games in centerfield.
Michaels is eligible for arbitration, and the Phillies, hoping to re-sign closer Billy Wagner, probably wouldn't feel the need to hold on to a pricy player who is now a reserve (unless they trade Bobby Abreu or Pat Burrell to create a starting spot for Michaels).
Sierra Mist
11-23-05, 10:00 PM
not a bad move
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-23-05, 10:01 PM
I just read somewhere about the Yankees asking for him over and over again but getting shot down, hold on I'll get the link...
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-23-05, 10:03 PM
The Yankees have asked the Phillies about Jason Michaels and repeatedly have been told he isn't available.
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/31750.htm
IrishYankee
11-23-05, 10:11 PM
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
2005 105 289 54 88 16 2 4 31 120 44 45 3 3 .399 .415 .304
Career 383 808 134 235 49 5 21 100 357 114 182 6 6 .380 .442 .291
Not much power. Scouting report says a fastball hitter, decent speed, not great fielding instincts. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6696
Murcer'swerebest
11-23-05, 10:18 PM
Rowand's a terrific fielder but no great shakes at the plate. If you were the Phillies would you just cavalierly dump the guy who might be his replacement if Rowand's hitting falls off as much from 2005 to 2006 as it did from 2004 to 2005?
vin777b
11-23-05, 10:20 PM
there is nothing wrong with Michael's stats. Almost a .400 on base.
longtimeyankeefan
11-23-05, 10:20 PM
Rowand's a terrific fielder but no great shakes at the plate. If you were the Phillies would you just cavalierly dump the guy who might be his replacement if Rowand's hitting falls off as much from 2005 to 2006 as it did from 2004 to 2005?
No, but I do believe that they would make Shane Victorino available - and for not too great a price. I start with Small + AAA pitching prospect. They would like cheap starting pitching.
DiMaggio5CF
11-23-05, 10:21 PM
It makes sense. After all, a Phillies' backup should be good enough to start for the Yankees.
Michaels and Endy Chavez for Wang and Cano?
NelsonMuntz
11-23-05, 10:26 PM
I'm not sure I understand why the Phillies wanted Rowand over this guy to begin with.
It makes sense. After all, a Phillies' backup should be good enough to start for the Yankees.
Michaels and Endy Chavez for Wang and Cano?
You could have said the same thing about Scott Brosius and Joe Girardi at one time.
Maybe when come off this arrogant idea that we need a former allstar at every position, we will get back to the dynasty years.
BronxByTheBay
11-23-05, 10:35 PM
Am I being completely insane or is there a shot the Phils would flip Rowand to us if Michaels is thought of as highly as he is? For what, I'm not sure as I suck at armchair GM.
WebsterMulligan
11-23-05, 10:36 PM
Am I being completely insane or is there a shot the Phils would flip Rowand to us if Michaels is thought of as highly as he is? For what, I'm not sure as I suck at armchair GM.
My guess it would be for starting pitching. The Phillies are a little short in that department.
BronxByTheBay
11-23-05, 10:40 PM
My guess it would be for starting pitching. The Phillies are a little short in that department.
Hmmm...see, if Michaels is everything everyone is touting him to be and Rowand is questionable offensively...why wouldn't that be a great fit for both teams?
In fact...why the f*ck DID the Phils trade for Rowand anyway?
hellonewman
11-23-05, 10:43 PM
You could have said the same thing about Scott Brosius and Joe Girardi at one time.
Maybe when come off this arrogant idea that we need a former allstar at every position, we will get back to the dynasty years.Agreed. From the current roster, you can add Shawn Chacon to that list. He was a 1-game winner at the deadline last year, guess we should send him back.
the_coach
11-23-05, 10:43 PM
Hmmm...see, if Michaels is everything everyone is touting him to be and Rowand is questionable offensively...why wouldn't that be a great fit for both teams?
In fact...why the f*ck DID the Phils trade for Rowand anyway?
To get rid of Thomes' contract.
yanksphan
11-23-05, 10:44 PM
Hmmm...see, if Michaels is everything everyone is touting him to be and Rowand is questionable offensively...why wouldn't that be a great fit for both teams?
In fact...why the f*ck DID the Phils trade for Rowand anyway?
To spin him to us for SP.
Makes sense...we'll just have to hope it does to Yanks/Phils...
BronxByTheBay
11-23-05, 10:44 PM
To get rid of Thomes' contract.
Sure, but why stock up on CF when they already have a good one unless it's to flip one of the two. Or so I hope.
NelsonMuntz
11-23-05, 10:45 PM
In fact...why the f*ck DID the Phils trade for Rowand anyway?
That's what I want to know:
I'm not sure I understand why the Phillies wanted Rowand over this guy to begin with.
BronxByTheBay
11-23-05, 10:45 PM
To spin him to us for SP.
Makes sense...we'll just have to hope it does to Yanks/Phils...
You mean I'm not being batsh*t crazy!??
HEY MAW - LOOK, YANKSPHAN DOESN'T THINK I'M BEIN BATSH*T CRAZY!!!
BronxByTheBay
11-23-05, 10:46 PM
That's what I want to know:
Wed' be such buds if only you unf*cked your politics. :D
highheat2014
11-23-05, 10:46 PM
Hmmm...see, if Michaels is everything everyone is touting him to be and Rowand is questionable offensively...why wouldn't that be a great fit for both teams?
In fact...why the f*ck DID the Phils trade for Rowand anyway?
It wasn't so much trading for Rowand as it was getting Thome off their hands, even while paying more than half of his contract. Even if they're unable to move Rowand/Michaels/Victorino, the Phillies should be ecstatic because Howard is now able to play everyday next year. (and they also got 2 White Sox top-10 prospects)
NelsonMuntz
11-23-05, 10:46 PM
Wed' be such buds if only you unf*cked your politics. :D
I could say the same thing about you :P
hellonewman
11-23-05, 10:47 PM
Hmmm...see, if Michaels is everything everyone is touting him to be and Rowand is questionable offensively...why wouldn't that be a great fit for both teams?Is anyone really touting Michaels to be the next big thing? I think it's just that people think he'd be a good placeholder until something better develops a year or two down the road. We're all kind of scared of that looming Bubba spectre.
vin777b
11-23-05, 10:48 PM
they can have Pavano or Wright. Am not trading Chacon or Small.
yanksphan
11-23-05, 10:50 PM
You mean I'm not being batsh*t crazy!??
HEY MAW - LOOK, YANKSPHAN DOESN'T THINK I'M BEIN BATSH*T CRAZY!!!
No - I think you're batsh*t crazy...ever since that reach-around crap this summer...:uhh:
BronxByTheBay
11-23-05, 10:51 PM
No - I think you're batsh*t crazy...ever since that reach-around crap this summer...:uhh:
Sorry about that dude. I can't see a thing with all that steam in the room.
:eek:
nyg02005
11-23-05, 10:51 PM
Michaels is an average at best OF. I would only get him if he does not cost a prospect. Otherwise I will stick with bubba.
yanksphan
11-23-05, 10:53 PM
Sorry about that dude. I can't see a thing with all that steam in the room.
:eek:
"C'mon Yanksphan - it's just a little water - throw it on the sauna rocks"
"Well...alright - you seem to know what your doing BBTB"
AMYanks
11-23-05, 10:53 PM
I would be happy with Michaels. If he was given a full season of playing time, .300 / .390 / .430 with strong defense is certainly attainable. His career OPS+ is 113.
vin777b
11-23-05, 10:53 PM
his numbers are solid. Much better than what Bubba will do.
BronxByTheBay
11-23-05, 10:55 PM
"C'mon Yanksphan - it's just a little water - throw it on the sauna rocks"
"Well...alright - you seem to know what your doing BBTB"
In the interest of keeping this thread open, I will not succumb to your very obvious baiting, sir.
highheat2014
11-23-05, 10:56 PM
they can have Pavano or Wright. Am not trading Chacon or Small.
You wouldn't trade Small for the right price? Cashman needs to trade him now as this is when his value is highest. He's a career minor-leaguer; he probably won't even be an average pitcher next year. ERA+ will probably be sub-100.
yanksphan
11-23-05, 10:59 PM
In the interest of keeping this thread open, I will not succumb to your very obvious baiting, sir.
Oh sure - now it never happened?
Bitch.
Michaels splits..
vs Left - .310/.408/.473 - 880OPS
vs Right - .277/.360/.420 - .780OPS
Career Fielding (Lg Avg)
FP - .983 (.987)
RFg - 2.05 (2.18)
RF9 - 2.67 (2.52)
NelsonMuntz
11-23-05, 11:06 PM
You wouldn't trade Small for the right price? Cashman needs to trade him now as this is when his value is highest. He's a career minor-leaguer; he probably won't even be an average pitcher next year. ERA+ will probably be sub-100.
Agreed. I appreciate what Aaron did for us last year, but I'd trade him in a heartbeat for a decent centerfielder.
Dooley Womack
11-23-05, 11:28 PM
"C'mon Yanksphan - it's just a little water - throw it on the sauna rocks"
"Well...alright - you seem to know what your doing BBTB" :roflmao: :roflmao:
yanks710
11-23-05, 11:33 PM
Heres a detailed scouting report if anyone is interested:
Summary
Offensive Outfielder
Report
Arm Accuracy
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Arm Strength
Rating: MINUS
Notes: Does Have A Quick Release. Charges The Ball In The Outfield To Compensate
Base Running
Rating: PLUS
Notes: Smart Runner; Good Judgement On The Bases With Surprising Speed--but Not A Base Stealer
Bunt
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: N/A
Hands
Rating: GOOD
Notes: N/A
Hitting for Power
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: Has Pop In His Bat
Hit/Run
Rating: AVERAGE - MINUS
Notes: N/A
Hitting for Average
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: Good Hitting Stroke Off Solid Hitting Actions. Goes With The Pitch And Uses The Field. Hits Lhp Well
Range
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Secondary Position Accuracy
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Secondary Position Arm Strength
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Speed
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: Has A Good Stride
Secondary Position Hands
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: N/A
Secondary Position Range
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: N/A
Strengths/Weaknesses:
Makes Only Fair Contact; Strikes Out Often. When He Hits The Ball Jumps Off His Bat With Authority. Quick Wrists
Strengths
Competitiveness
DETAILS
Competitiveness: PLUS
Intelligence: AVERAGE
Position:
Can Play All Three Outfield Spots
Yankees13
11-23-05, 11:38 PM
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1124,0,1193769.story?coll=nyc-sports-headlines
This is a very good option, probably would come pretty cheap, and has a career 380 obp, 400 last year.
AMYanks
11-23-05, 11:40 PM
Heres a detailed scouting report if anyone is interested:
Summary
Offensive Outfielder
Report
Arm Accuracy
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Arm Strength
Rating: MINUS
Notes: Does Have A Quick Release. Charges The Ball In The Outfield To Compensate
Base Running
Rating: PLUS
Notes: Smart Runner; Good Judgement On The Bases With Surprising Speed--but Not A Base Stealer
Bunt
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: N/A
Hands
Rating: GOOD
Notes: N/A
Hitting for Power
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: Has Pop In His Bat
Hit/Run
Rating: AVERAGE - MINUS
Notes: N/A
Hitting for Average
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: Good Hitting Stroke Off Solid Hitting Actions. Goes With The Pitch And Uses The Field. Hits Lhp Well
Range
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Secondary Position Accuracy
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Secondary Position Arm Strength
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Speed
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: Has A Good Stride
Secondary Position Hands
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: N/A
Secondary Position Range
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: N/A
Strengths/Weaknesses:
Makes Only Fair Contact; Strikes Out Often. When He Hits The Ball Jumps Off His Bat With Authority. Quick Wrists
Strengths
Competitiveness
DETAILS
Competitiveness: PLUS
Intelligence: AVERAGE
Position:
Can Play All Three Outfield Spots
I like what I read. It's sounds as if he tries to add things to his game, in order to compensate for "minus" arm strength.
Yankees13
11-23-05, 11:48 PM
You could have said the same thing about Scott Brosius and Joe Girardi at one time.
Maybe when come off this arrogant idea that we need a former allstar at every position, we will get back to the dynasty years.
Yup, people talk the talk about just filling holes with solid players, not superstars etc. But when options like this present themselves they're unwilling to get someone who isn't a big name player.
Kulish29
11-24-05, 12:38 AM
Michaels and Endy Chavez for Wang and Cano?
In the Phillies most lucid dreams.
The Yankees hold a lot of the leverage here. The Phillies were likely to non-tender Chavez anyway and they have Rowand for CF now.
JeffWeaverFan
11-24-05, 12:46 AM
I figured Cash would be on the phones with Gillick as soon as he heard about the Rowand deal. Michaels (or Rowand) will be ours - count on it.
The major thing is to not give up the prospects, rather trade Pavano + cash.
JapanJobbers
11-24-05, 03:02 AM
I could definitely see a Pavano and cash deal. I don't think Gillick would be interested in Small at all.
conkermaniac
11-24-05, 03:16 AM
Agreed. From the current roster, you can add Shawn Chacon to that list. He was a 1-game winner at the deadline last year, guess we should send him back.
He was a former All-Star.
Yankees1962
11-24-05, 05:27 AM
Again, I would be surprised to see the Yankees trade Pavano, no matter, how many of you want to see that happen. Furthermore, if the Yankees are able to sign Giles which is still a distinct possiblity and stick him in RF. I can also see the Yankees talking trade or wait for Michaels or Bradley to be non-tendered which will basically allow Sheffield to be the full-time DH for 100 or so games next season. Matsui in left, with Michael or Bradley in CF and Giles in RF will strengthen the outfield defense and improve the hitting lineup with more production coming out of the DH and CF spots than we had last season. This will allow more outfield flexibility for Torre.
Next week, I expect something to happen with Giles one way or another.
bakntime
11-24-05, 05:43 AM
Michaels splits..
vs Left - .310/.408/.473 - 880OPS
vs Right - .277/.360/.420 - .780OPS
Career Fielding (Lg Avg)
FP - .983 (.987)
RFg - 2.05 (2.18)
RF9 - 2.67 (2.52)This is what has me pretty low on this guy. He's been primarily a platoon player and utility man. His numbers are inflated due to a bulk of his playing time coming against lefty pitchers. With below average fielding ability, weak arm, and his inability to hit righties, he's not worth giving up much for, in my opinion. On the cheap as a platoon/bench player I wouldn't mind it, but I'd rather have someone with plus defense and ability to hit righty pitchers.
Maybe Lofton will want to come back for one year? ;)
longtimeyankeefan
11-24-05, 06:29 AM
It makes sense. After all, a Phillies' backup should be good enough to start for the Yankees.
Michaels and Endy Chavez for Wang and Cano?
Nice to see that you bothered to investigate my suggestion before you stuck your foot in your mouth.
Victorino was NOT a Phillies backup last season - his path last season was blocked by Kenny Lofton, then Jason Michael. He spent most of the season in AAA, where he batted .310/.377/.534 with 51BB, 18HR and 70RBI in 126 games. BTW - he was the IL player of the year as well.
He played in a total of 21 games with the Phillies, batting .294 in 17 ABs.
For a low price, he would be a material upgrade from Bubba Crosby.
ShaneTravis
11-24-05, 06:52 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/368524p-313549c.html
But Thome-for-Rowand may facilitate another possible solution for the Yankees. Before the deal, they asked about Phillies outfielder Jason Michaels, who split time in center with Kenny Lofton last season, and were told he was unavailable. Now that Rowand is in Philly, Michaels, a 29-year-old Tampa product who hit .304 with four homers and 31 RBI in 105 games this year, could be expendable.
YankeePride1967
11-24-05, 07:16 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/31750.htm
"Recently" the Phillies didn't have Aaron Rowand.
It doesn't seem as though Michaels is anything more than average. Pavano + cash for him would be overpaying IMO. I'm almost willing to stick it out with Bubba and see how it goes. Bubba's defense isn't half bad.
longtimeyankeefan
11-24-05, 07:29 AM
It doesn't seem as though Michaels is anything more than average. Pavano + cash for him would be overpaying IMO. I'm almost willing to stick it out with Bubba and see how it goes. Bubba's defense isn't half bad.
Offensively, Michaels would be a huge improvement over Bubba. His career .291/.380/.442 figures dwarf what Crosby can or even could do.
Defensively, Michaels is versatile enough to play all three OF positions. His RF/9 exceed the league average at all three positions - both last year and for his career - and his 8 OF assists indicate his arm is not to be sneezed at.
We have an overabundance of starting pitching, which Philadelphia needs. For a player of Michaels' caliber, they are not going to be willing to accept our 6/7 starters - they are going to want someone with a pedigree.
Pavano + cash (Michaels only made $825K last season, probably <$2M in arbitration) is a reasonable offer.
YankeeFan1
11-24-05, 08:39 AM
Pavano and cash for a mediocre centerfielder? Not in this lifetime. More like DePaula and a PTBNL for Michaels.
yank4life2005
11-24-05, 08:44 AM
How about a Henn & Proctor deal or Wright (Half of salary) & Proctor?
Pavano and cash for a mediocre centerfielder? Not in this lifetime. More like DePaula and a PTBNL for Michaels.
Michaels is only worth a guy like DePaula. No way is he worth Pavano. The Phillies would do that trade in a heartbeat
Offensively, Michaels would be a huge improvement over Bubba. His career .291/.380/.442 figures dwarf what Crosby can or even could do.
Defensively, Michaels is versatile enough to play all three OF positions. His RF/9 exceed the league average at all three positions - both last year and for his career - and his 8 OF assists indicate his arm is not to be sneezed at.
We have an overabundance of starting pitching, which Philadelphia needs. For a player of Michaels' caliber, they are not going to be willing to accept our 6/7 starters - they are going to want someone with a pedigree.
Pavano + cash (Michaels only made $825K last season, probably <$2M in arbitration) is a reasonable offer.
Michaels isn't worth Pavano. Eventhough Pavano had a bad season last year, his value is so much more than Michaels.
ring403
11-24-05, 08:51 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58242.htm
November 24, 2005 -- One door in Chicago closed on the Yankees' center field problem yesterday and another may have opened in Philadelphia.
When the World-Champion White Sox sent Aaron Rowand to the Phillies for Jim Thome, Rowand was deleted from the Yankees' list. However, Philly's Jason Michaels, a player the Yankees have been asking about for two years, is likely available.
And while the 29-year-old Michaels isn't as sexy as Johnny Damon, as skilled as Milton Bradley, a proven hitter like Brian Giles or as fast as Juan Pierre, there are a lot of positives around the Tampa native who has never gotten a chance to play full-time in Philadelphia but has been a productive part-timer.
"I have not received a call from them," GM Brian Cashman said yesterday when asked if the Phillies were shopping Michaels after getting Rowand.
Since the right-handed-hitting Michaels was involved in a proposed Thome to the Indians deal for Coco Crisp and David Riske, he wasn't untouchable before Rowand was acquired. The Pirates offered pitcher Mike Redmond in July for Michaels and were rebuffed.
However, that was when Ed Wade was the GM. He has been replaced by Pat Gillick.
And with outfielder Shane Victorino, the International League Player of the Year, waiting to take over Michaels' utility role for a lot cheaper, the Phillies will likely listen. Michaels made $825,000 last year, his fourth, and is arbitration eligible.
ring403
11-24-05, 09:00 AM
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15635792&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18170&rfi=6
The trade paves the way for the Phillies to shop an outfielder. Pat Burrell and Bobby Abreu are star-quality players with huge contracts. How much of those deals the Phillies would have to pick up would depend upon the player or players coming in return -- in the Phillies’ case, they would seek a solid starting pitcher for either Abreu or Burrell.
If no attractive deals come for either of them, then there is a good chance that Jason Michaels will be dealt. Michaels, a right-handed hitter, did a good job in a center-field platoon with left-handed-hitting Kenny Lofton last season. However, with Rowand in center, Michaels’ playing time would evaporate. Michaels, who hit .304 and had 54 runs scored and a .399 on-base percentage in 105 games (68 starts), is entering his first year of arbitration eligibility and is an attractive, affordable outfielder for low-budget clubs.
Yankees1962
11-24-05, 09:01 AM
Pavano and cash for a mediocre centerfielder? Not in this lifetime. More like DePaula and a PTBNL for Michaels.
I couldn't agree more about Pavano. I think too many of us are taking what's written in NY tabloids about Pavano as gospel instead of with a grain of salt.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15635792&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18170&rfi=6
Hmmm, they have an excess of outfielders and we have an excess or pitchers. Any chance we could get Abreu? :D
Bernie Inferno
11-24-05, 10:15 AM
Offensively, Michaels would be a huge improvement over Bubba. His career .291/.380/.442 figures dwarf what Crosby can or even could do.
Defensively, Michaels is versatile enough to play all three OF positions. His RF/9 exceed the league average at all three positions - both last year and for his career - and his 8 OF assists indicate his arm is not to be sneezed at.
We have an overabundance of starting pitching, which Philadelphia needs. For a player of Michaels' caliber, they are not going to be willing to accept our 6/7 starters - they are going to want someone with a pedigree.
Pavano + cash (Michaels only made $825K last season, probably <$2M in arbitration) is a reasonable offer. Are you kidding me??? Pavano and cash for a utilityman?
NelsonMuntz
11-24-05, 10:18 AM
Are you kidding me??? Pavano and cash for a utilityman?
I think it's absurd as well. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of bringing in a guy like Michaels to play CF, but he's not worth Pavano and cash.
38Special
11-24-05, 10:23 AM
Why are we pretending that Pavano has any semblence of value right now? He completely bombed, has 30+ million still coming to him, and went down with an bum shoulder. He could be Mo Vaughn by the time May rolls around.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 10:34 AM
Why are we pretending that Pavano has any semblence of value right now? He completely bombed, has 30+ million still coming to him, and went down with an bum shoulder. He could be Mo Vaughn by the time May rolls around.
Do you see a lot of solid SP options available that could be had for 3 year deals?
longtimeyankeefan
11-24-05, 10:40 AM
Michaels is only worth a guy like DePaula. No way is he worth Pavano. The Phillies would do that trade in a heartbeat
If the Phillies want AAA pitching, they can go into their own farm system.
They want a starter to help front their rotation, but at a reasonable price.
If you are not willing to give them something, then they will look elsewhere. You can argue that it should be Michaels plus another player, but to believe that Jorge DePaula is going to get you Jason Michaels is ridiculous.
Fabien Brandy
11-24-05, 10:40 AM
Why are we pretending that Pavano has any semblence of value right now? He completely bombed, has 30+ million still coming to him, and went down with an bum shoulder.
I think people feel that the amount of money the Yankees would have to kick in because of Pavano's low current value make it more reasonable to just wait to see if he gains any value back. Pavano with the bulk of his contract paid by the Yankees makes him very desirable to another team, though, I would think.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 10:44 AM
If I'm trading Pavano to Philly, it better be for Rowand.
If the Phillies want AAA pitching, they can go into their own farm system.
They want a starter to help front their rotation, but at a reasonable price.
If you are not willing to give them something, then they will look elsewhere. You can argue that it should be Michaels plus another player, but to believe that Jorge DePaula is going to get you Jason Michaels is ridiculous.
If they think Jason Michaels will get them Chacon, Wang or Pavano thats ridiculous too. Then I'll rather just live with Bubba.
yanksphan
11-24-05, 10:46 AM
Do you see a lot of solid SP options available that could be had for 3 year deals?
Millwood and Washburn would probably come cheaper than the balance of Pavano's contract.
Millwood and Washburn would probably come cheaper than the balance of Pavano's contract.
I read that Boras is asking for 60M/5yrs for Millwood. Once I find the link I'll post it.
yanksphan
11-24-05, 10:49 AM
I read that Boras is asking for 60M/5yrs for Millwood. Once I find the link I'll post it.
He won't get that though. Boras is also asking 7 years for Damon..
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 10:51 AM
Millwood and Washburn would probably come cheaper than the balance of Pavano's contract.
Millwood would get at LEAST 30. I doubt Washburn gets less than that, either. I would even be willing to bump it down to $21mil left on Pavano's deal.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 10:53 AM
He won't get that though. Boras is also asking 7 years for Damon..
He will probably get close to 50. Not to mention there's no way he signs back with the Phillies.
He will probably get close to 50. Not to mention there's no way he signs back with the Phillies.Millwood gets close to 50? I don't know - maybe he gets 3/36... I can't see him getting more than that.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 10:57 AM
Millwood gets close to 50? I don't know - maybe he gets 3/36... I can't see him getting more than that.
He had a 2.86era last year in about 200 innings. He's definitely one of the most valuable pitchers on the market. And when I see guys like Eyre and Howry, who are mediocre relievers, getting 11 and 12 million dollar deals, an elite starter getting 50 seems pretty possible.
He had a 2.86era last year in about 200 innings. He's definitely one of the most valuable pitchers on the market. And when I see guys like Eyre and Howry, who are mediocre relievers, getting 11 and 12 million dollar deals, an elite starter getting 50 seems pretty possible.
You might be right. Teams might look at his low ERA and give him more money. I don't think he'll be able to repeat that, though. His defense helped him out a lot and his peripherals aren't great, if I recall correctly. I'd still be surprised, though.
38Special
11-24-05, 11:01 AM
Do you see a lot of solid SP options available that could be had for 3 year deals?
If Pavano were a free agent this year, based on how he did last year and his injury issues, he'd be lucky to get a guaranteed contract, especially one worth more than a million dollars. There's nothing solid about him at the current time. Sure he has potential but so do a million other options.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-24-05, 11:03 AM
He was a former All-Star.
And a first round draft pick. Everybody is acting like he was a fluke and never had any potetional for some reason. He wont be an ace but he is a solid middle of rotation guy.
If Pavano were a free agent this year, based on how he did last year and his injury issues, he'd be lucky to get a guaranteed contract, especially one worth more than a million dollars. There's nothing solid about him at the current time. Sure he has potential but so do a million other options.
So are you for trading pavano or do you think he can rebound and do better next year or do you think he's worthless and he won't rebound?
38Special
11-24-05, 11:04 AM
He has NO VALUE. We dont even know if he'll be healthy next year. His "shoulder didnt feel right" what the hell does that mean
So are you for trading pavano or do you think he can rebound and do better next year or do you think he's worthless and he won't rebound?
I think he should be traded for whatever we can get. I wasnt optimistic about him before we signed him, and given his previous injury issues and what happened last year...i would get whatever value we could. We have enough pitchers already and good prospects on the horizon. Any way we could get rid of him would be fine by me.
His value is low now, but it will be even lower if we keep him and he sucks again
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:06 AM
He has NO VALUE. We dont even know if he'll be healthy next year. His "shoulder didnt feel right" what the hell does that mean
How much value should Thome have, he missed a heck of a lot of time last year? This is total nonsense. A player gets hurt, and has no value? They have doctors for a reason. They'll check him out, and if they think he can pitch, they'll trade for him.
He has NO VALUE. We dont even know if he'll be healthy next year. His "shoulder didnt feel right" what the hell does that meanTrue - he has none. IF healthy, he can be a decent contributor. Given that no one will take him unless we give him for free, all we can do is hang on to him and hope he helps.
38Special
11-24-05, 11:07 AM
How much value should Thome have, he missed a heck of a lot of time last year? This is total nonsense. A player gets hurt, and has no value? They have doctors for a reason. They'll check him out, and if they think he can pitch, they'll trade for him.
Thome had one bad year out of an amazing 10+ year career, and it was due to a diagnosed injury. Those are two completely different cases and you know it
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-24-05, 11:08 AM
BTW I dont like Michaels at all, I dont want an all star but this guy is a platton player who got the benefit of facing his strength(lefties), has a significant drop off against rightys, has average fielding skills and range and a bad arm.
tatanka9
11-24-05, 11:11 AM
It is amazing that we're so fired up about a platoon OF who was the lesser half of the platoon (To Kenny Lofton, no less). Everytime a NYY has a down year, the Forum acts like it is an abberration and they will be the second coming the next year even if they are in theaging decline, but a young player has the same kind of year and he's NOT WORTHY of pinstripes. Micheals has less than 1 year of AB's at 29 years old. That has me concerned! I'm turning towards Wilkerson, but hope they pursue Rowand.
DiMaggio5CF
11-24-05, 11:11 AM
Nice to see that you bothered to investigate my suggestion before you stuck your foot in your mouth.
Victorino was NOT a Phillies backup last season - his path last season was blocked by Kenny Lofton, then Jason Michael. He spent most of the season in AAA, where he batted .310/.377/.534 with 51BB, 18HR and 70RBI in 126 games. BTW - he was the IL player of the year as well.
He played in a total of 21 games with the Phillies, batting .294 in 17 ABs.
For a low price, he would be a material upgrade from Bubba Crosby.
I was talking about Michaels, not Victorino. If I'm responding to anything other than the opening post or the general topic of thread, I'll quote it. And if you post something at 11:20 and then I post something at 11:21, there's a good chance that what you posted wasn't even there when I hit the reply button.
As for Michaels being another Girardi or Brosius, both of those guys were full-time players before they came to the Yankees. And for every Girardi and Brosius, there's a Lofton and Womack.
It just seems to me that a guy who's 30 years old and has never seen 300 at-bats is a career back-up for a reason; and although the scouting report has a lot of "average-plus" ratings, it sounds to me like he's a big strikeout, double play guy who misses the ball as often as he hits it.
And playing in Yankee Stadium might turn a lot of those fly balls into outs; he's no A-Rod. I wouldn't be upset if the Yankees got Michaels, but I wouldn't be happy either.
If they get him as the fourth outfielder, I'd be quite happy. If they get him to start in CF, not so much.
JeffWeaverFan
11-24-05, 11:18 AM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58242.htm
Pretty much every article is just speculating what we all started speculating when we heard the trade. Cash will get on this and make an attempt.
I think that we could probably stand a better shot at getting Michaels if we agreed to take an expensive contract from the Phillies. They will have a hard time moving Burrell or Abreu and want to trim payroll due to the Thome contract.
Perhaps if we agree to accept Lieberthal, Vincente Padilla or Randy Wolf, they will throw Michaels in for cheap.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:27 AM
Thome had one bad year out of an amazing 10+ year career, and it was due to a diagnosed injury. Those are two completely different cases and you know it
Thome's also a lot older, and still making a lot of money after the Phillies picked up a chunk of it.
Jetfanmack
11-24-05, 11:48 AM
Play Michaels everyday, and if he fails, platoon Michaels and Crosby.
DontHateOnNumber2
11-24-05, 12:00 PM
Hopefully they nab him for next to nothing. I'm sure Michaels wouldn't mind much either since he won't be patrolling the dugout on the Yankees.
BronxByTheBay
11-24-05, 12:04 PM
Boras is also asking 7 years for Damon..
Is that f*cking amazing or what? Boras's sack should have strings dangling off it and included in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.
Again, I would be surprised to see the Yankees trade Pavano, no matter, how many of you want to see that happen. Furthermore, if the Yankees are able to sign Giles which is still a distinct possiblity and stick him in RF. I can also see the Yankees talking trade or wait for Michaels or Bradley to be non-tendered which will basically allow Sheffield to be the full-time DH for 100 or so games next season. Matsui in left, with Michael or Bradley in CF and Giles in RF will strengthen the outfield defense and improve the hitting lineup with more production coming out of the DH and CF spots than we had last season. This will allow more outfield flexibility for Torre.
Next week, I expect something to happen with Giles one way or another.
Yeah, he really wanted to return to SD- that's not gonna happen so it's a clean slate. If we have to pay the "yankee tax", we should still get it done
ring403
11-24-05, 12:20 PM
Yeah, he really wanted to return to SD- that's not gonna happen so it's a clean slate. If we have to pay the "yankee tax", we should still get it doneCleveland may now have the inside track for Giles due to his history there, and the Indians apparent willingness to give him a $30 million contract.
One of the best ways to deal with the Phillies is to offer them a chance to shed payroll.
This is what I would do if we were able to acquire Jason Michaels:
Against LHP:
Matsui-Michaels-Sheffield
DH = Posada
Against RHP:
Matsui-Bubba/Michaels-Jacque Jones
DH = Sheff
This assumes that we sign Jacque Jones to a 2 year deal and do a trade with the Phillies that sounds something like decent pitching and cash for Jason Michaels and Mike Lieberthal. The logic would be that Lieberthal catches against lefties and during Posada's day off while Jorge would catch against righties and do some more DH work.
I realize it might be difficult to convince Jones to play for us if he won't be starting against lefties but it could be very worthwhile if we are willing to pay a bit more.
We could get an incredibly balanced lineup with only spending perhaps 2 years/$14 million for Jones and taking most of the payroll for Lieberthal.
Plus, the benefits include a better rested Sheff and Posada and tightened up defense at catcher and in the outfield.
I understand that this means that we would likely be paying someone around $5 million to catch 50 games and DH maybe 10 more but it creates depth, flexibility and facilitates the acquisition of someone like Michaels who can really help solve the outfield equation. Besides, considering we paid Karsay $6 million to do virtually nothing, it wouldn't be the most absurd thing we've done.
knickfan23
11-24-05, 01:19 PM
Is that f*cking amazing or what? Boras's sack should have strings dangling off it and included in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.
Why is that number so far off that Boras is asking for? After last season, he set the market for Beltran at 10 years and 200 million, and then "settled" for 7 years and 119 million. Beltran was to be no more than a 14 million a year player, Boras wanted to make him a 20 million a year player, and ended up making Beltran a 17 million player. Seems like good negotiating to me. Shoot for the moon, and come out of it better than where you have started.
So now, he is asking for 7 and 84 for Damon. Teams are offering 4 years and 44 million. That probably means that Damon will find some team that is going to pony up 5 years and 57 million and that will be the end of it.
Hey, who would have thought D-Lowe would have gotten 9 million a year last year, and Ordonez would be able to snag a 75 million contract despite the fact he missed 3-4 months of a his final season where he was becoming a free agent. Somehow, someway, most of these teams continue to bite and payout. And if the Yanks are that desperate, they will be next on the list of teams that overpay for Damon.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-24-05, 01:32 PM
Michaels really isn't a good defender, we need someone to make up for Sheffield and Matsui's bad defense and Michaels isn't the solution...
njdhockey
11-24-05, 01:51 PM
Michaels really isn't a good defender, we need someone to make up for Sheffield and Matsui's bad defense and Michaels isn't the solution...
I agree 100%, lets hope the Yankees agree too.
yanksphan
11-24-05, 02:06 PM
Why is that number so far off that Boras is asking for? After last season, he set the market for Beltran at 10 years and 200 million, and then "settled" for 7 years and 119 million. Beltran was to be no more than a 14 million a year player, Boras wanted to make him a 20 million a year player, and ended up making Beltran a 17 million player. Seems like good negotiating to me. Shoot for the moon, and come out of it better than where you have started.
So now, he is asking for 7 and 84 for Damon. Teams are offering 4 years and 44 million. That probably means that Damon will find some team that is going to pony up 5 years and 57 million and that will be the end of it.
Certainly - but you can't compare Beltran and Damon. Damon is 32 - Beltran was 27 when he signed his deal. The RS don't even want to give him 4 years, and Boras is asking for 7?
There's a difference in shooting high, and misfiring all together.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-24-05, 02:36 PM
[QUOTE=Mark19] They will have a hard time moving Burrell or AbreuQUOTE]
You think they will have a hard time moving Abreu?
ring403
11-24-05, 02:43 PM
Certainly - but you can't compare Beltran and Damon. Damon is 32 - Beltran was 27 when he signed his deal. The RS don't even want to give him 4 years, and Boras is asking for 7?
There's a difference in shooting high, and misfiring all together.
I think his point was that regardless of the player, Boras has proven time and time again that he can extract more money from teams than can reasonably be expected. Perhaps asking for the moon, and "settling" for less is part of a strategy of making teams believe that they are winning the negotiations by getting Boras to come down considerably from his astronomical initial demands.
I believe that his initial asking price for Beltran was 10 years/$200 million.
Michaels really isn't a good defender, we need someone to make up for Sheffield and Matsui's bad defense and Michaels isn't the solution...
Agreed.. I am on the sign Giles for RF, put Sheff at DH, and let Bubba patrol CF (unless we can deal Pavano for a solid defensive CF - ala to Philly for Rowand) bandwagon.
the_coach
11-24-05, 09:50 PM
How about Wright for Michaels?
Johnny O
11-24-05, 10:23 PM
Michaels is pretty much a platoon player, he hits LHPs very well. He'll be 30 in May and is a below average defender in CF. The Phils would be smart to keep him, he's an excellent 4th OFer. If the Yanks were to acquire him, they would probably need a lefty platoon partner, or could mix & match CF. I would look elsewhere, but the options are getting thin.
SINCE77 2
11-24-05, 10:31 PM
Any news on the Wilkerson front?
NewEraYanks2527
11-24-05, 10:43 PM
Any news on the Wilkerson front?
Been wondering that too. Of course I know there are better CFers than Michaels, he might just fit in nicely, just please get someone solid to play CF.
rotoworld.com beleives that we may have some competition for michaels. they claim that the royals are also interested and the red sox could be as well. the other possibility is that the phillies trade bobby abreu and michaels becomes the right fielder.
AMYanks
11-25-05, 07:23 PM
rotoworld.com beleives that we may have some competition for michaels. they claim that the royals are also interested and the red sox could be as well. the other possibility is that the phillies trade bobby abreu and michaels becomes the right fielder.
If the Royals really want him, they can have him. Michaels is a nice player, but he's not worth giving up anything of true substance for.
Michaels is pretty much a platoon player, he hits LHPs very well. He'll be 30 in May and is a below average defender in CF. The Phils would be smart to keep him, he's an excellent 4th OFer. If the Yanks were to acquire him, they would probably need a lefty platoon partner, or could mix & match CF. I would look elsewhere, but the options are getting thin.
He's been a platoon player, but he hasn't been too bad against righties in his career. He's a .277 career hitter vs. them with a .360 obp in close to 500 ab. Quite frankly, that's fine. Considering he's a .310 hitter with a .408 obp against lefties, he's a pretty effective hitter.
Now...I really don't know what kind of defender he is, and since he doesn't hit for much power or run all that well, it would seem that he would need to be at least a decent fielder to have an interest.
I wouldn't give up a lot, but he certainly would be an asset.
AMYanks
11-25-05, 07:39 PM
He's been a platoon player, but he hasn't been too bad against righties in his career. He's a .277 career hitter vs. them with a .360 obp in close to 500 ab. Quite frankly, that's fine. Considering he's a .310 hitter with a .408 obp against lefties, he's a pretty effective hitter.
Now...I really don't know what kind of defender he is, and since he doesn't hit for much power or run all that well, it would seem that he would need to be at least a decent fielder to have an interest.
I wouldn't give up a lot, but he certainly would be an asset.
From the reports I've read, defense isn't his strong suit. However, I would say you could define him as "above average".
MattUNC2003
11-25-05, 10:56 PM
From the reports I've read, defense isn't his strong suit. However, I would say you could define him as "above average".
I think I got a very bad first impression about the guy's defense by the picture in this link...
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks244526460nov24,0,1984626.story?coll=ny-yankees-bigpix
Note the position of the ball.
NelsonMuntz
11-25-05, 11:53 PM
From the reports I've read, defense isn't his strong suit. However, I would say you could define him as "above average".
I've actually been hearing from Philly fans that he's a better corner outfielder than he is a centerfielder. Purely observational on their part, so take it for what it's worth.
ChrisV82
11-26-05, 12:06 AM
The word from the Phillies organization is that they may play Michaels in left field against left-handed pitchers and have Pat Burrell play first (!), but it doesn't make sense unless they don't have much confidence in their ROY winner.
This is one more situation where I bet an NL team wishes they had a DH spot to play around with, "purity of the game" be damned.
http://www.all-baseball.com/
From Cooperstown Confidential:
Now that the Phillies have stockpiled center fielders—the steal of Aaron Rowand gives them three viable options, along with solid backup Jason Michaels and top prospect Shane Victorino—they’ve begun talks with the Yankees about making a trade for some pitching. The Phils would love to add Shawn Chacon to a thinning staff that could lose both Billy Wagner and Ugueth Urbina, but might settle for Aaron Small in a deal for Michaels. The Yankees’ preference would be to unload Carl Pavano, but that would require a financial commitment (i.e. eating some nasty-tasting contract) on their part; besides, Pavano is strictly a starter, whereas the Phillies would prefer a more versatile pitcher like Chacon or Small, both of whom have recent experience out of the bullpen… Would Michaels be a legitimate answer to the Yankees’ center field woes? The answer here is yes. In fact, some folks in the Phillies’ organization thought that he should have been given the fulltime job in Philadelphia, rather than make trades for Kenny Lofton and Endy Chavez. Over the last two years, Michaels has compiled a respectable on-base percentage of .381 despite having to combat the perils of sporadic playing time. In the field, the 29-year-old Michaels is an above-average defender; though he lacks the sprinter’s speed that would be ideal for center field, he makes up for the deficiency with good jumps, a healthy dose of aggressiveness, and a strong throwing arm. Yes, the Yankees could manage with Michaels as the starter, backed up by the solid defense of Bubba Crosby… Michaels would be a more realistic acquisition than Ichiro Suzuki, who would likely cost the Yankees at least one (and possibly both) of their 2005 rookie contributors, Robinson Cano and Chien-Ming Wang. The Yankees don’t want to trade either, making a deal for Suzuki an improbability…
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 01:25 AM
I would trade Small for Michaels right now.
http://www.all-baseball.com/
From Cooperstown Confidential:
Small for Michaels. Do it now, Cashman.
ICEBERG18
11-27-05, 01:29 AM
I would trade Small for Michaels right now.
I would do that also, but i would have to see it to believe it.
yankees76
11-27-05, 01:37 AM
I don't see the Phillies trading a potential every day player for a career journeyman like Small, but if they will, God bless them. Small has been great for us, and his trade value has never been higher. Michaels is, basically, Bubba Crosby with a better OBP and the potential to be an every day CF. This is fine if it works out, but I just don't see it.
NYDCYankee
11-27-05, 01:46 AM
We would have to do that trade. It would painlessly fill a huge hole.
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 01:49 AM
Michaels, for Philly, has little value, because they have three CFers. Small looked awesome last year, and has pretty numbers. Yeah, he'll probably give up 50 homers if he's a SP in Philly, but thats not my problem.
noneckwilliams
11-27-05, 02:27 AM
[QUOTE=I Love Wang]I would trade Small for Michaels right now.[
everyone would - that's why it will never happen.
i'd deal chacon for michaels. anyone else?
Kulish29
11-27-05, 03:25 AM
[QUOTE=I Love Wang]I would trade Small for Michaels right now.[
everyone would - that's why it will never happen.
i'd deal chacon for michaels. anyone else?
Chacon for Michaels? No. Chacon for Rowand? Yes.
Kulish29
11-27-05, 03:30 AM
I think I got a very bad first impression about the guy's defense by the picture in this link...
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks244526460nov24,0,1984626.story?coll=ny-yankees-bigpix
Note the position of the ball.
If you're going to go by that picture, check out some of his web gem plays here:
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player_media.jsp?player_id=346859
He's a decent defender in CF.
YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 06:59 AM
It would put Sierra Mist on a suicide watch, but I would do Small for Michaels in a second.
longtimeyankeefan
11-27-05, 08:59 AM
Chacon for Michaels? No. Chacon for Rowand? Yes.
Chacon for Michaels straight up would be a fair trade for both sides. Although Chacon performed admirably for us this past season, there is no guarantee that he will continue to perform at such level.
We have a wealth of starting pitching and need a CFer - trading Chacon in this deal would not inappropriate.
flymick24
11-27-05, 09:02 AM
It would put Sierra Mist on a suicide watch, but I would do Small for Michaels in a second.
add in the fact that the yankees probably won't re-sign ruben and we can safely assume that we've effectively seen the last of him
flymick24
11-27-05, 09:03 AM
Chacon for Michaels straight up would be a fair trade for both sides. Although Chacon performed admirably for us this past season, there is no guarantee that he will continue to perform at such level.
We have a wealth of starting pitching and need a CFer - trading Chacon in this deal would not inappropriate.
i would trade pavano before i trade chacon
longtimeyankeefan
11-27-05, 09:06 AM
i would trade pavano before i trade chacon
Earlier in this thread, I proposed a Pavano + cash for Michaels trade and was ripped a new one by a few forumites - I, too, would trade Pavano before Chacon, but I don't know if the Phillies would go for it or not.
Interestingly, in today's paper, there is an article that other teams are calling about Pavano and Cash is deflecting those requests. Makes one wonder if the Yankees would part with Carl or not.
ICEBERG18
11-27-05, 09:12 AM
Interestingly, in today's paper, there is an article that other teams are calling about Pavano and Cash is deflecting those requests. Makes one wonder if the Yankees would part with Carl or not.
Cashman already said last week that he's not going to be traded. Unless, he's blown away or as he said it "Makes Sense."...
whalers
11-27-05, 09:16 AM
If you're going to go by that picture, check out some of his web gem plays here:
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player_media.jsp?player_id=346859
He's a decent defender in CF.
I actually went through and looked at all his defensive highlights and most of those plays dont get made by Bernie. Id trade Small for him but I be a bit hestitant to deal Chacon.
ShaneTravis
11-27-05, 09:18 AM
Cashman already said last week that he's not going to be traded. Unless, he's blown away or as he said it "Makes Sense."...
Rotoworld surmized it was Detroit who called Cashman regarding Carl.
I don't really see a match with the Yanks getting anything of value from Detroit.
But, if some team ( Seattle, Philly ) who did match up maybe we will see Pavano being shipped out.
YankeeStripes
11-27-05, 09:19 AM
Once again, creativity is needed. Here’s an idea. The Yankees should target the best all-around player on the free agent market, the player who would bring the team some much-needed range, athleticism, and youth. He’s not a center fielder, but he would still make the team better, and would allow the Yankees to shift another player to the outfield. The free agent is 27-year-old Rafael Furcal, who has the kind of physical attributes (good hands, low base, strong lower body) to make an easy transition to second base. By signing Furcal, the Yankees could then move Robinson Cano to center field, giving the athletic, strong-armed 23-year-old the chance to be the next standout center fielder in a long line of Yankee notables. Besides, the Yankees considered making Cano an outfielder in the minor leagues, and there are those in the organization who still think he will outgrow second base and will need to move to another position eventually.
i really like this idea.
justinvarnes
11-27-05, 09:21 AM
Chacon and Wang are two solid young starters who can pitch .550-.600 ball for the yanks for years to come...
now, WHY would they trade either one of them for a decent CF? This isn't Andruw or Kotsay. He's a decent hitter and real good defender, but with so many good CF prospects in the minors and some good FA's coming around next year, it seems silly to deal a good, young pitcher.
There are alot of good CF options that won't cost the Yankees their young pitchers.
vegematarian
11-27-05, 10:01 AM
Still tough to judge on 4 part time seasons.
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 10:54 AM
Chacon for Michaels straight up would be a fair trade for both sides. Although Chacon performed admirably for us this past season, there is no guarantee that he will continue to perform at such level.
We have a wealth of starting pitching and need a CFer - trading Chacon in this deal would not inappropriate.
We have a wealth of starting pitching and need a CFer, they have a wealth of CFers and need a starting pitcher. So we trade our surplus for their surplus. Not our quality for their surplus. I would trade Small for Michaels, or Pavano for Rowand. Chacon is a guy I've coveted for a long time, and I expected him to succeed in NY. He did, and I'm not going to say its crazy and dump him for someone else's spare part.
yanksphan
11-27-05, 11:06 AM
We have a wealth of starting pitching and need a CFer, they have a wealth of CFers and need a starting pitcher. So we trade our surplus for their surplus. Not our quality for their surplus. I would trade Small for Michaels, or Pavano for Rowand. Chacon is a guy I've coveted for a long time, and I expected him to succeed in NY. He did, and I'm not going to say its crazy and dump him for someone else's spare part.
Agreed. You call the Phillies and give them 2 offers -
Michaels for Small
or
Pavano for Rowand - with some money thrown in to help pay for Pavano. I don't like the idea of paying for players to play for other teams, but the Phils got Rowand to shed payroll (Thome), so taking on more might be hard to swallow.
NelsonMuntz
11-27-05, 11:23 AM
I would trade Small for Michaels right now.
Absolutely. Get it done Mr. Cashman.
mjdlight
11-27-05, 11:24 AM
The opening price for Michaels is probably Cano + Wang + Hughes :)
Yankees1962
11-27-05, 11:29 AM
I'm speculating of course, but I don't expect the Yankees to trade any starting pitching until late March.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 12:01 PM
Michaels Isn't A Good Defender!
AMYanks
11-27-05, 12:37 PM
I don't see the Phillies trading a potential every day player for a career journeyman like Small, but if they will, God bless them. Small has been great for us, and his trade value has never been higher. Michaels is, basically, Bubba Crosby with a better OBP and the potential to be an every day CF. This is fine if it works out, but I just don't see it.
Michaels is a much, MUCH better hitter than Crosby.
Michaels Isn't A Good Defender!
The ESPN scouting report says he is at least average if not above average. Every newspaper article regarding him has only had positive things to say about his fielding.
27IsNext
11-27-05, 01:02 PM
The opening price for Michaels is probably Cano + Wang + Hughes :)
You forgot Duncan.
You also fail to mention that he'll likely then be offered to Boston for two cans of baked beans and a crate of lobsters. ;)
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 01:12 PM
The ESPN scouting report says he is at least average if not above average. Every newspaper article regarding him has only had positive things to say about his fielding.
What report are you reading?
Michaels has decent range in the outfield but doesn't always make the play once he gets to the ball.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6696
Every report I have read has conflicted with that Cooperstown Confidential BS...
YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 01:16 PM
What report are you reading?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6696
Every report I have read has conflicted with that Cooperstown Confidential BS...
Well if he were great defensively (or even very good) then the price would be Cano or Wang instead of Small.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 01:19 PM
Well if he were great defensively (or even very good) then the price would be Cano or Wang instead of Small.
Not necessarily. He isn't the answer to the Yankees needs, he plays in a shoebox, it wouldn't be a good transition...
YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 01:21 PM
Not necessarily. He isn't the answer to the Yankees needs, he plays in a shoebox, it wouldn't be a good transition...
If Michaels were one of the better defensive CFers in the game, Philadelphia would want value back, they wouldn't just give him to us for an Aaron Small.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 01:25 PM
If Michaels were one of the better defensive CFers in the game, Philadelphia would want value back, they wouldn't just give him to us for an Aaron Small.
Yes, they would. They already have Rowand and prospects coming up in the farm. They have absolutely no need/use for him. I don't want the top defensive CFer in the game, but there are better options than Michaels...
YankeePride1967
11-27-05, 01:29 PM
Yes, they would. They already have Rowand and prospects coming up in the farm. They have absolutely no need/use for him. I don't want the top defensive CFer in the game, but there are better options than Michaels...
I can't think of many. I would prefer Giles or Bradley over him. But I'd do Small for Michaels (I was arguing that as the price is only a Small, we shouldn't be expecting a stud in return) if those scenarios didn't play out. I'd do this before I signed Damon for anywhere near what he wants.
According to his 2004 numbers he's not a bad defender http://pages.map.com/pinto/charts/13992004.htm , then again he's never played a full season so you never know. He was never projected to be more than a 4th-5th outfielder.
A=.287/.385./484
AA=.295/.337/.451
AAA=.262/.334/.436
So far in the the majors in 808AB= .291/.380/.442
I like him, he's a compromise between bernie(No glove) and Bubba(No bat) I would be willing to part with some talent to get him...I know this probably too much but would the Phillies take Pope or King?
PS: I still say we trade for TJ Bohn from the mariners, the M's have better outfielders and wouldnt ask for much in return.
What report are you reading?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6696
Every report I have read has conflicted with that Cooperstown Confidential BS...
NY Post:
'Seventy-five of them(starts) were as a center fielder where he is an aggressive defender.
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58242.htm
I am not claiming that he is the next Jim Edmonds but you have little proof that he is a BAD defender. The ESPN scouting report doesn't take this past season into account 2005, arguably his best season yet.
ChrisV82
11-27-05, 01:38 PM
Not necessarily. He isn't the answer to the Yankees needs, he plays in a shoebox, it wouldn't be a good transition...
His numbers didn't change between the Vet and Citizen's Bank defensively, and offensively he had a better year in 2003 at the Vet than in 2004 or 2005.
Still, I wouldn't give up Chacon for him. Small, maybe, Chacon (or Pavano), no.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 02:03 PM
NY Post:
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58242.htm
I am not claiming that he is the next Jim Edmonds but you have little proof that he is a BAD defender. The ESPN scouting report doesn't take this past season into account 2005, arguably his best season yet.
Being an aggressive defender doesn't necessarily make you a good one. And I really don't trust the "scouting" at the NY Post. How is 2005 arguably his best defensive season, where are you getting this data from? Have you watched him over the years or something?
Heres a detailed scouting report if anyone is interested:
Summary
Offensive Outfielder
Report
Arm Accuracy
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: N/A
Arm Strength
Rating: MINUS
Notes: Does Have A Quick Release. Charges The Ball In The Outfield To Compensate
Base Running
Rating: PLUS
Notes: Smart Runner; Good Judgement On The Bases With Surprising Speed--but Not A Base Stealer
Bunt
Rating: AVERAGE
Notes: N/A
Hands
Rating: GOOD
Notes: N/A
Hitting for Power
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: Has Pop In His Bat
Hit/Run
Rating: AVERAGE - MINUS
Notes: N/A
Hitting for Average
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
Notes: Good Hitting Stroke Off Solid Hitting Actions. Goes With The Pitch And Uses The Field. Hits Lhp Well
Range
Rating: AVERAGE - PLUS
He doesn't have a strong arm and doesn't have great range. You need someone with great range to play CF in YS. He isn't bad but he just really isn't that good...
Being an aggressive defender doesn't necessarily make you a good one. And I really don't trust the "scouting" at the NY Post. How is 2005 arguably his best defensive season, where are you getting this data from? Have you watched him over the years or something?
He doesn't have a strong arm and doesn't have great range. You need someone with great range to play CF in YS. He isn't bad but he just really isn't that good...
I was arguing that his steady defense and great OBP makes 2005 a more important year for him despite the lack of power. So he has a below average arm with above average accuracy, a quick release and above average range. This basically makes somewhat similar to Matsui but with more speed and perhaps a more accurate throwing arm. That doesn't make him a bad centerfielder, it just makes him a fairly average one.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 02:30 PM
I was arguing that his steady defense and great OBP makes 2005 a more important year for him despite the lack of power.
Gotcha...
So he has a below average arm with above average accuracy, a quick release and above average range. This basically makes somewhat similar to Matsui but with more speed and perhaps a more accurate throwing arm. That doesn't make him a bad centerfielder, it just makes him a fairly average one.
He has average to above average range. But there are conflicting reports saying he doesn't have great range and then there are ones saying he has good range, so I have no idea, I have never seen him play. But hes not speedy but probably gets a decent jump on the ball. Yes, it does make him an average CFer, but thats exactly what I don't want. I'd rather go with some other options (Giles, Bradley, Wilkerson), but if those fail, I think Michaels would be OK I guess...
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 02:41 PM
Statistically, that being Range+, he ranked very well defensively. His Range+ was 106, his adjusted fielding runs(RAR2, RAA2) had him at +18/+9, with a Rate2 of 114. There is every indication he is, at the very worst, an average defensive CFer. He is a huge upgrade, given total offensive and defensive contributions, from anything we've had in CF since 2002, excluding the days Matsui was out there.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 02:42 PM
if we can get this guy for only small we should do it and make him a fourth outfielder after we get wilkerson or bradley
AMYanks
11-27-05, 02:46 PM
if we can get this guy for only small we should do it and make him a fourth outfielder after we get wilkerson or bradley
Sounds good to me. Although, I might put Michaels in RF (I hear he's a good corner OFer), and DH Sheff.
Yankees13
11-27-05, 03:05 PM
i really like this idea.
Cano is way too slow to play CF
hardrain
11-27-05, 04:02 PM
I'm not going to dump on Small because he was brilliant for us and that demands respect.
However, going forward, it makes sense for the Yanks to deal him for Michaels, I believe. There is no way that Small will repeat his performance, given his stuff.
I also prefer a Michaels/Crosby situation going into the season rather than a silly acquistion of Pierre or Giles.
tatanka9
11-27-05, 04:08 PM
When we are talking about the Yankees needs for this off-season, we need to put a cork in the Offensive stats discussion and talk strictly about defense. We already proved in 2005 that we had plenty of offense, but we needed it primarily to overcome defensive weaknesses.
What if we had a solid defensive team behind our SP staff? Would we need to score 7-8 runs a game? Would we need to rest our season on the efforts of one-dimensional offensive players who are aging and declining faster than our farm system is building? And where is the ability to manufacture runs. What difference does it make to have a good hit and run player like Jeter if you don't have anybody to get on and then run in front of him. We need to have balance on the team with veterans and young players, power and finesse pitchers and lefty and righty bullpen situations.
Finally, think outside the box, I'm sure Cash is. Not who do think is available, but who do we want and need to get this balance. And who could we give up for the right return. If we can't do it this season, would it be advantageous to blow up the team a little and get rid of some contracts and get some strong prospects in retun. How many teams feel they are only 1-2 players away from WS contention, and would give up a future for a here and now. Stop acting like we've won a WS title since 2001. Think dynasty, not just 2006. That's the Yankee way.
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 04:17 PM
If Jason is so good then why did the Phills trade for Rowand?
SINCE77 2
11-27-05, 04:20 PM
If Jason is so good then why did the Phills trade for Rowand?
To get rid of Thome.
SINCE77 2
11-27-05, 04:28 PM
When we are talking about the Yankees needs for this off-season, we need to put a cork in the Offensive stats discussion and talk strictly about defense. We already proved in 2005 that we had plenty of offense, but we needed it primarily to overcome defensive weaknesses.
What if we had a solid defensive team behind our SP staff? Would we need to score 7-8 runs a game? Would we need to rest our season on the efforts of one-dimensional offensive players who are aging and declining faster than our farm system is building? And where is the ability to manufacture runs. What difference does it make to have a good hit and run player like Jeter if you don't have anybody to get on and then run in front of him. We need to have balance on the team with veterans and young players, power and finesse pitchers and lefty and righty bullpen situations.
Finally, think outside the box, I'm sure Cash is. Not who do think is available, but who do we want and need to get this balance. And who could we give up for the right return. If we can't do it this season, would it be advantageous to blow up the team a little and get rid of some contracts and get some strong prospects in retun. How many teams feel they are only 1-2 players away from WS contention, and would give up a future for a here and now. Stop acting like we've won a WS title since 2001. Think dynasty, not just 2006. That's the Yankee way.
Hit the nail on the head. Needs and not wants.
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 04:32 PM
I know they were looking to move Thome for the chance to get Howard full time but they had other options then Rowand and it was reported they were looking for CF help in the off season.
longtimeyankeefan
11-27-05, 04:34 PM
Living outside of Philadelphia, I get to watch a lot of Phillies games.
Michaels is an average to above average defender. He does not have great speed, but he does get good jumps on balls. He also is aggressive in charging the ball to make up for his less than cannon arm.
All told, he would defensively be a plus to Bubba and his offense would be a huge upgrade. He is also versatile, being able to play all three OF positions.
If we could get Gillick to trade him for not too much (it likely will take more than Small), then I find him to be an excellent move. He is not going to be our CFer for the next 10 years - rather, he is there to keep the position warm until one of our minor leaguers proves ready for the big time.
AMYanks
11-27-05, 04:40 PM
If Jason is so good then why did the Phills trade for Rowand?
The Phillies don't expect Michaels to be a full time CFer, and Rowand is the best fielding CFer in MLB.
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 04:45 PM
As a partner with Bubba I guess it would be nice to have a pair of OF you could plug into any spot. As far as being a better OF then Bubba I will disagree.I guess I would make the move but not for anything over 2 B prospects.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 04:46 PM
As a partner with Bubba I guess it would be nice to have a pair of OF you could plug into any spot. As far as being a better OF then Bubba I will disagree.I guess I would make the move but not for anything over 2 B prospects.
Bubba is a slighlty better fielder, Michaels is a far superior hitter
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 04:47 PM
Rowand is the best fielding CFer in MLB.
:uhh: :uhh:
longtimeyankeefan
11-27-05, 04:49 PM
The Phillies don't expect Michaels to be a full time CFer, and Rowand is the best fielding CFer in MLB.
While I will not dispute the Rowand comment, the Phillies had little choice where to deal Thome.
Thome, with his no-trade clause, identified only three teams that he was willing to be dealt to - the Cubs, the White Sox or the Indians.
The Indians and Cubs had no real interest in Thome, leaving the White Sox.
The White Sox wanted to move Rowand in order to make room in their OF for Brian Anderson.
This trade was a case of trading value for value - the White Sox wanted a bopper in the lineup to pair with Konerko, who they hope to resign. They valued Thome's bat enough to include "the best fielding CFer in the AL" and two other prospects to get him back.
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 04:52 PM
I know by the nubers you 100% right but Bubba has to be given a real chance to show him self.I have said in the past he could hit 280 with a 340 obp.I have been bashed for it but he did put up close to those numbers when given more then 15 ab's a week.I don't feel he will ever hit lefty's great but can make up for some of his short commings with his speed IMO.
AMYanks
11-27-05, 04:52 PM
:uhh: :uhh:
Actually, Edmonds is probably the only guy who was better. But, he'll be 36, and decline shouldn't be that far away.
AMYanks
11-27-05, 04:53 PM
While I will not dispute the Rowand comment, the Phillies had little choice where to deal Thome.
Thome, with his no-trade clause, identified only three teams that he was willing to be dealt to - the Cubs, the White Sox or the Indians.
The Indians and Cubs had no real interest in Thome, leaving the White Sox.
The White Sox wanted to move Rowand in order to make room in their OF for Brian Anderson.
This trade was a case of trading value for value - the White Sox wanted a bopper in the lineup to pair with Konerko, who they hope to resign. They valued Thome's bat enough to include "the best fielding CFer in the AL" and two other prospects to get him back.
What's your argument? I mentioned that the Phillies didn't see Michaels as a full time CFer.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-27-05, 04:53 PM
While I will not dispute the Rowand comment, the Phillies had little choice where to deal Thome.
Thome, with his no-trade clause, identified only three teams that he was willing to be dealt to - the Cubs, the White Sox or the Indians.
The Indians and Cubs had no real interest in Thome, leaving the White Sox.
The White Sox wanted to move Rowand in order to make room in their OF for Brian Anderson.
This trade was a case of trading value for value - the White Sox wanted a bopper in the lineup to pair with Konerko, who they hope to resign. They valued Thome's bat enough to include "the best fielding CFer in the AL" and two other prospects to get him back.
So they valued the injured declining Thome with a huge contract over sheffield with one year left on his deal?
AMYanks
11-27-05, 04:55 PM
I know by the nubers you 100% right but Bubba has to be given a real chance to show him self.I have said in the past he could hit 280 with a 340 obp.I have been bashed for it but he did put up close to those numbers when given more then 15 ab's a week.I don't feel he will ever hit lefty's great but can make up for some of his short commings with his speed IMO.
I HIGHLY doubt Crosby could hit .280 with a .340 OBP. Over a full season, he'd probably be .240 / .270 / .320.
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 04:59 PM
I don't doub't it because he has put numbers up in AAA that could translate into those given numbers.
AMYanks
11-27-05, 05:03 PM
I don't doub't it because he has put numbers up in AAA that could translate into those given numbers.
He was a .280 / .340 /.420 hitter in the minors. That does not mean he will do that in the majors.
Btw, in 160 ABs in Columbus in 2005, he was .231 / .306 / .362. He's not a major league hitter, and he never will be.
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 05:05 PM
When we are talking about the Yankees needs for this off-season, we need to put a cork in the Offensive stats discussion and talk strictly about defense. We already proved in 2005 that we had plenty of offense, but we needed it primarily to overcome defensive weaknesses.
What if we had a solid defensive team behind our SP staff? Would we need to score 7-8 runs a game? Would we need to rest our season on the efforts of one-dimensional offensive players who are aging and declining faster than our farm system is building? And where is the ability to manufacture runs. What difference does it make to have a good hit and run player like Jeter if you don't have anybody to get on and then run in front of him. We need to have balance on the team with veterans and young players, power and finesse pitchers and lefty and righty bullpen situations.
Finally, think outside the box, I'm sure Cash is. Not who do think is available, but who do we want and need to get this balance. And who could we give up for the right return. If we can't do it this season, would it be advantageous to blow up the team a little and get rid of some contracts and get some strong prospects in retun. How many teams feel they are only 1-2 players away from WS contention, and would give up a future for a here and now. Stop acting like we've won a WS title since 2001. Think dynasty, not just 2006. That's the Yankee way.
Jeter should not be used as a hit and run player. He should be used to get on base. Cash is thinking outside the box, and, unlike you, isn't basing his opinions on a bunch of old baseball cliches.
What is "enough runs," anyway? If we lose a game, then we didn't score enough runs. If we had scored more, we'd have won.
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 05:09 PM
I don't doub't it because he has put numbers up in AAA that could translate into those given numbers.
You just made that up, and convinced NO ONE.
Yankees1962
11-27-05, 05:12 PM
You just made that up, and convinced NO ONE.
At this time, I'm indifferent towards Michaels, but who do you want the Yankees to get as their CF?
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 05:18 PM
At this time, I'm indifferent towards Michaels, but who do you want the Yankees to get as their CF?
Given Michaels' likely cost, I would have no problem acquiring him. He is an above-average fielder, and will produce a very good on-base percentage. I'd prefer him to Bradley, who I don't see staying healthy. If Rowand could be acquired at the cost of Pavano, I'd do that. If we could sign Giles, I'd play him in RF, and still trade for Michaels. What I like about Michaels is he won't block any of our CF prospects. Given Melky's current DWL success, help could be on the way sooner than we think.
AMYanks
11-27-05, 05:19 PM
Given Michaels' likely cost, I would have no problem acquiring him. He is an above-average fielder, and will produce a very good on-base percentage. I'd prefer him to Bradley, who I don't see staying healthy. If Rowand could be acquired at the cost of Pavano, I'd do that. If we could sign Giles, I'd play him in RF, and still trade for Michaels. What I like about Michaels is he won't block any of our CF prospects. Given Melky's current DWL success, help could be on the way sooner than we think.
I don't know about you, but I would add Wilkerson to my list.
NelsonMuntz
11-27-05, 06:07 PM
When we are talking about the Yankees needs for this off-season, we need to put a cork in the Offensive stats discussion and talk strictly about defense.
Why does it have to be either/or? I'm not arguing that improving the CF defense shouldn't be a priority. It should have been a top priority a long time ago. Nonetheless, last year we scored the fewest runs as a team since the 2001 season. Virtually every hitter in our lineup is in decline offensively. That's not to say they will all be terrible hitters next year, but to say we can just ignore the offensive side of the equation altogether is not very wise, IMO.
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 07:21 PM
I don't know about you, but I would add Wilkerson to my list.
Wilkerson is on my list. I've been advocating him for some time.
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 07:33 PM
ILW Made what numbers up?And can you really speak for every one?Bubba has hit for over 300 in the minors ,will that translate?Who knows BUT as I have stated IMO he could put up the numbers I have posted.As for 231 in 160 AB's did you take into account he was a YO YO that season?
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 07:34 PM
ILW Made what numbers up?And can you really speak for every one?Bubba has hit for over 300 in the minors ,will that translate?Who knows BUT as I have stated IMO he could put up the numbers I have posted.As for 231 in 160 AB's did you take into account he was a YO YO that season?
Bubba's minor league batting average is .281. What you made up was that his numbers translate to the major league numbers you invented. I don't believe you have any idea what Bubba hit in the minors.
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 07:44 PM
I stated IMO those are numbers I believe could translate to the big's.Not made up but an opinion.As far as Bubba goes I have followed him from the time he was drafted by the Dodgers in the first round as I have followed many a drafted prospect.I have been attending Minor league games most likely before you have ever been born and have posting on this and many other minor league sites so before you bash do your homework.I will try to tell you again that its an opinion!!You have yours and I have mine.
longtimeyankeefan
11-27-05, 08:14 PM
What's your argument? I mentioned that the Phillies didn't see Michaels as a full time CFer.
Prior to the acquisition of Rowand, Michaels was slated to be the starting CFer on the Phillies in 2006.
Even now, there is talk in Philadelphia (which I don't understand) of trading Abreu and making Michaels the RFer.
Apparently someone in the Phillies organization likes Jason Michaels.
So they valued the injured declining Thome with a huge contract over sheffield with one year left on his deal?
Was Sheffield ever offered to the White Sox for Rowand? I haven't heard this trade proposal before.
AMYanks
11-27-05, 08:18 PM
Prior to the acquisition of Rowand, Michaels was slated to be the starting CFer on the Phillies in 2006.
Even now, there is talk in Philadelphia (which I don't understand) of trading Abreu and making Michaels the RFer.
Apparently someone in the Phillies organization likes Jason Michaels.
Some like him in the organization, some didn't. They didn't want to pass up the opportunity to incredibly increase their defense in CF.
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 08:20 PM
Unless Shef has changed his stance it will be very hard to move him.
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 08:28 PM
I stated IMO those are numbers I believe could translate to the big's.Not made up but an opinion.As far as Bubba goes I have followed him from the time he was drafted by the Dodgers in the first round as I have followed many a drafted prospect.I have been attending Minor league games most likely before you have ever been born and have posting on this and many other minor league sites so before you bash do your homework.I will try to tell you again that its an opinion!!You have yours and I have mine.
Considering that Bubba's minor league stats translate to very poor major league numbers, I don't believe that you researched any of this. And I certainly don't believe that you've been following Bubba since he was drafted by the Dodgers. Do you follow all dodger draft picks?
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 08:31 PM
Congrats your the first to make my ignor list!!Go look some more numbers up.
I Love Wang
11-27-05, 08:32 PM
Congrats your the first to make my ignor list!!Go look some more numbers up.
Thanks for proving me right on your way out, liar.
highheat2014
11-27-05, 08:45 PM
Umm, I would say round 1 definitely went to ILW. Care to come back for round 2 Yankyfan?
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 08:52 PM
No way to declare a winner on an opinion.Oh I have to go now .I just found out you can look up stats the web.WHO KNEW??
Yankyfan
11-27-05, 09:24 PM
HH2014 funny thing is how people say things on a post they never would have guts to say to some one face to face.Whether you or others feel the opinion is correct or not there are ways to go about it.
longtimeyankeefan
11-27-05, 09:42 PM
Some like him in the organization, some didn't. They didn't want to pass up the opportunity to incredibly increase their defense in CF.
I agree that they could not pass up the opportunity to acquire Rowand, but I don't think they began the trading of Thome by targeting Rowand.
AMYanks
11-27-05, 09:59 PM
Congrats your the first to make my ignor list!!Go look some more numbers up.
Uhh... he did look the numbers up, and he proved that your opinion lacks any true evidence.
highheat2014
11-27-05, 10:40 PM
HH2014 funny thing is how people say things on a post they never would have guts to say to some one face to face.Whether you or others feel the opinion is correct or not there are ways to go about it.
Because Bubba Crosby is not anywhere close to an adequate Major League hitter, even if you've been following him since he was drafted by the Dodgers? He had one good season in the minors, and that was in the extremely hitter-friendly PCL. In his two seasons with Columbus he's posted OPS' of .744 (http://thebaseballcube.com/players/C/bubba-crosby.shtml) and .668 (http://thebaseballcube.com/players/C/bubba-crosby.shtml).
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 07:27 AM
Nobody is saying Bubba is going to be a star.What I will say is that he has shown in the minors that he has some skills.Bubba came up as a guy with a long swing and has had to work at changing it.It started his last year with the Dodgers and he has been a work in progress with Donnie.All Im saying is just give him a chance and you might be suprised.Just my opinion not enough to be called a liar by a coward.
Michaels07
11-28-05, 12:01 PM
Bubba is a hustler and is the best outfielder currently on the 25 man roster. Bobby Murcer who had played CF for the Bombers feels that he can do the job.I think he can Bunt, steal bases and perhaps hit 280 with at least 15 homers.
effdamets
11-28-05, 12:14 PM
The Phillies don't expect Michaels to be a full time CFer, and Rowand is the best fielding CFer in MLB.
Really? Did someone not tell me that Andruw Jones died?
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 12:52 PM
Really? Did someone not tell me that Andruw Jones died?
Andruw Jones didn't die, but he put on about 40 pounds. Rowand is now a better fielder than Jones.
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 12:53 PM
Bubba is a hustler and is the best outfielder currently on the 25 man roster. Bobby Murcer who had played CF for the Bombers feels that he can do the job.I think he can Bunt, steal bases and perhaps hit 280 with at least 15 homers.
Bobby Murcer is a nice guy, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. Bubba can't hit. He certainly won't hit .280 or 15 home runs.
harkode2002
11-28-05, 01:04 PM
To: I Love Wang
You have had some interesting posts, however to say Bobby Murcer doesn't know what he is talking about sure says something about you. 252 home runs and over 1000 RBI, a Yankee commentator, full time baseball person for over 40 years and you say he doesn't know what he is talking about. If you want to knock a former Yankee, knock someone like Oscar Gamble, but not Murcer.
And to all you Fans of Wilkerson - his stats last year were:
Ave - .248
HR = 11
RBI = 57
SB = 8
I would venture a guess that Crosby if left in the Number 9 hole would produce better numbers than this. What the He__ is the fascination with Wilkerson? A lifetime batting ave of .256, and you are going after him like he's the next Mickey Mantle.
I think we need to thank our lucky stars that Cashman is the GM and not some of us (and I include myself).
effdamets
11-28-05, 01:09 PM
Andruw Jones didn't die, but he put on about 40 pounds. Rowand is now a better fielder than Jones.
Whoa!!!
This must be a joke... because the last time I checked, Jones has won 8 straight Gold Glove awards to Rowand's ZERO...
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 01:12 PM
To: I Love Wang
You have had some interesting posts, however to say Bobby Murcer doesn't know what he is talking about sure says something about you. 252 home runs and over 1000 RBI, a Yankee commentator, full time baseball person for over 40 years and you say he doesn't know what he is talking about. If you want to knock a former Yankee, knock someone like Oscar Gamble, but not Murcer.
And to all you Fans of Wilkerson - his stats last year were:
Ave - .248
HR = 11
RBI = 57
SB = 8
I would venture a guess that Crosby if left in the Number 9 hole would produce better numbers than this. What the He__ is the fascination with Wilkerson? A lifetime batting ave of .256, and you are going after him like he's the next Mickey Mantle.
I think we need to thank our lucky stars that Cashman is the GM and not some of us (and I include myself).
Murcer was a great player, that doesn't mean I should trust his ability to evaluate talent. It has nothing to do with hitting.
Regarding Wilkerson, he is a very good on-base guy who is coming off a bad year in a bad park, and he's undervalued because too many people look at nonsense like batting average, rbis, and stolen bases to decide how good a player is. His on-base percentages for 2002-2004 were .370, .380, .374. He hits a lot of doubles, and, in Yankee stadium, will hit a good number of homers as well. No one is going after him like he's Mickey Mantle, the point is that he's undervalued, so he will be worth a lot more than he'll likely cost.
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 01:12 PM
Whoa!!!
This must be a joke... because the last time I checked, Jones has won 8 straight Gold Glove awards to Rowand's ZERO...
Derek Jeter just won 2 gold gloves. Juan Uribe has zero. Who's the better SS?
NelsonMuntz
11-28-05, 01:18 PM
And to all you Fans of Wilkerson - his stats last year were:
Ave - .248
HR = 11
RBI = 57
SB = 8
I would venture a guess that Crosby if left in the Number 9 hole would produce better numbers than this.
Then you would guess wrong. See I Love Wang's post #207 on why a lot of us are high on Wilkerson. For future reference, you may not want to hitch your wagon to batting average. And to add to Wang's post, Wilkerson played most of the season with an injured wrist in one of the least hitter-friendly stadiums in MLB. His career numbers show that he is a very solid player, and he is definitely undervalued right now.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 01:27 PM
To: I Love Wang
You have had some interesting posts, however to say Bobby Murcer doesn't know what he is talking about sure says something about you. 252 home runs and over 1000 RBI, a Yankee commentator, full time baseball person for over 40 years and you say he doesn't know what he is talking about. If you want to knock a former Yankee, knock someone like Oscar Gamble, but not Murcer.
And to all you Fans of Wilkerson - his stats last year were:
Ave - .248
HR = 11
RBI = 57
SB = 8
I would venture a guess that Crosby if left in the Number 9 hole would produce better numbers than this. What the He__ is the fascination with Wilkerson? A lifetime batting ave of .256, and you are going after him like he's the next Mickey Mantle.
I think we need to thank our lucky stars that Cashman is the GM and not some of us (and I include myself).
crosby would hit .221/.253/.301
BTW Wilkerson had an off year last year in a hitters nightmare
In 2004 he hit .255/.379/.498
Wilkerson also plays better defense than Crosby, would be a lefty hitter in Yankee stadium and is vastly undervalued because of crappy stats like batting average.
Id expect .270/.380/.500(moves to Yankee stadium and in a much better lineup his average would go up from around .260 to around .270 because he wont be pitched around and his slugging will go up because he would be able to take advantage of the short porch in right)
Crosby would hit about .210/.250/.301
effdamets
11-28-05, 01:34 PM
Derek Jeter just won 2 gold gloves. Juan Uribe has zero. Who's the better SS?
Well, by all means it's Jeter! Uribe has played exactly 2 full seasons at short, as opposed to Derek's 10. One of those two, which was in the National League, he made 27 errors. And, this is not a comparison of Jeter and Uribe. Let's focus on Jones and Rowand.
What evidence is there that supports the fact that Rowand is a better centerfielder than Jones?
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 01:36 PM
Well, by all means it's Jeter! Uribe has played exactly 2 full seasons at short, as opposed to Derek's 10. One of those two, which was in the National League, he made 27 errors. And, this is not a comparison of Jeter and Uribe. Let's focus on Jones and Rowand.
What evidence is there that supports the fact that Rowand is a better centerfielder than Jones?
I think uzr showed that Rowand was one of the top defensive CFs in baseball, not sure about Jones though.
I wouldn't mind Wilkerson. I had him on my fantasy team a few years ago and was really happy with what he did. He has a high OBP, which is usually a better indicator of a batter's success.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 01:42 PM
I wouldn't mind Wilkerson. I had him on my fantasy team a few years ago and was really happy with what he did. He has a high OBP, which is usually a better indicator of a batter's success.
Agreed but change "wouldnt mind" to "would love" and you get what I think.
Agreed but change "wouldnt mind" to "would love" and you get what I think.Hehe. I'm not sure I'd make him my #1 priority, but he'd be a great second choice.
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 01:45 PM
Well, by all means it's Jeter! Uribe has played exactly 2 full seasons at short, as opposed to Derek's 10. One of those two, which was in the National League, he made 27 errors. And, this is not a comparison of Jeter and Uribe. Let's focus on Jones and Rowand.
What evidence is there that supports the fact that Rowand is a better centerfielder than Jones?
All statistical evidence points to Rowand being a better fielder than Jones at this point. Jones is out of shape. And who gives a damn about Gold Gloves? What a nonsense award that is.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 01:46 PM
Hehe. I'm not sure I'd make him my #1 priority, but he'd be a great second choice.
whos your first choice, Giles?
Yes, he would be my first choice.
AMYanks
11-28-05, 02:30 PM
Really? Did someone not tell me that Andruw Jones died?
Andruw Jones is NOT a great defensive CFer anymore. All defensive statistics show that Rowand is much better than Jones.
At one point, Jones was one of the best fielding CFers in MLB history. But over the past 2-3 years, he has regressed significantly. He's solid, but not great anymore.
highheat2014
11-28-05, 02:33 PM
Bobby Murcer is a nice guy, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. Bubba can't hit. He certainly won't hit .280 or 15 home runs.
He won't hit for those numbers according to Murcer. During the 9/11 Wakefield-Johnson 1-0 game, Murcer said he had "20-25 HR power." I had always thought Murcer was objective, but it ended right there.
AMYanks
11-28-05, 02:34 PM
To: I Love Wang
You have had some interesting posts, however to say Bobby Murcer doesn't know what he is talking about sure says something about you. 252 home runs and over 1000 RBI, a Yankee commentator, full time baseball person for over 40 years and you say he doesn't know what he is talking about. If you want to knock a former Yankee, knock someone like Oscar Gamble, but not Murcer.
And to all you Fans of Wilkerson - his stats last year were:
Ave - .248
HR = 11
RBI = 57
SB = 8
I would venture a guess that Crosby if left in the Number 9 hole would produce better numbers than this. What the He__ is the fascination with Wilkerson? A lifetime batting ave of .256, and you are going after him like he's the next Mickey Mantle.
I think we need to thank our lucky stars that Cashman is the GM and not some of us (and I include myself).
Hahahahahahahahhahahaha...
Wilkerson, in a year that was considered an off year for him, managed a .351 OBP and 104 OPS+.
He has a career OBP of .365, career OPS+ of 111, and is a good fielder.
Wilkerson was hurt by RFK stadium last year. He hit 32 HRs the year before, and I'd project him to be about .275 / .390 / .480 in Yankee Stadium. That's much better than Bubba Crosby could every dream of doing.
Wang's Groundballs
11-28-05, 02:35 PM
I think uzr showed that Rowand was one of the top defensive CFs in baseball, not sure about Jones though.
It did and at least in 2004 Jones was slightly below average.
Using ZR Rowand is the best CF in baseball while Jones is once again slightly below average.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-28-05, 03:16 PM
The Best AL CFer was Nook Logan not Rowand...
AMYanks
11-28-05, 03:26 PM
The Best AL CFer was Nook Logan not Rowand...
It's fairly close. I don't know what UZR says, but Logan had very small advantages in Rate, and Rate2. They're even in RAA & RAA2. Rowand has slightly larger advantages in RAR & RAR2.
Plus, Rowand appeared in about 500 more innings. I'd give him the slight advantage.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-28-05, 03:29 PM
It's fairly close. I don't know what UZR says, but Logan had very small advantages in Rate, and Rate2. They're even in RAA & RAA2. Rowand has slightly larger advantages in RAR & RAR2.
Plus, Rowand appeared in about 500 more innings. I'd give him the slight advantage.
I'll trust UZR over any other defensive metric, and it has Logan significantly better (by +6 runs, 30 to 24)...
AMYanks
11-28-05, 03:31 PM
I'll trust UZR over any other defensive metric, and it has Logan significantly better (by +6 runs, 30 to 24)...
Fine, then. The point SHOULD be that Rowand is a great CFer. If he's not the best in the league, he's close.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-28-05, 03:34 PM
Fine, then. The point SHOULD be that Rowand is a great CFer. If he's not the best in the league, he's close.
Definitely, but I don't like it when people say one player is the best at their defensive position in baseball because defense is very hard to quantify. MGL has done a great job in his system better than anyone else I have seen...
Wang's Groundballs
11-28-05, 04:17 PM
Definitely, but I don't like it when people say one player is the best at their defensive position in baseball because defense is very hard to quantify. MGL has done a great job in his system better than anyone else I have seen...
And he'd be the first to tell you that only 1 year of data is not enough to say with certainty that so and so is the best. Rowand has been, IIRC, either the best or 2nd best CF in the AL for at least the last 2 years and every metric I've seen has him the same. Logan, on the other hand, ranges from slightly below average to apparently the best in the AL. It's too early to tell, IMO.
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 04:37 PM
This has come down to Numbers guys Vs scouting and while both have there place I'll take a sober Gene Michael's over Beane any day.
AMYanks
11-28-05, 04:41 PM
This has come down to Numbers guys Vs scouting and while both have there place I'll take a sober Gene Michael's over Beane any day.
Michael helped architect an early, modified moneyball team. It's not as if Michael and Beane are two different extremes.
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 04:48 PM
There is some truth to that being Michael was a big obp guy but beene IMO would have never made the Kelly trade that sprung this whole thing into place.An ex scout did and the rest is history.
AMYanks
11-28-05, 04:51 PM
There is some truth to that being Michael was a big obp guy but beene IMO would have never made the Kelly trade that sprung this whole thing into place.An ex scout did and the rest is history.
Fine, but I'm sure most people wouldn't have made that particular move.
I'm not trying to say Beane is better than Michael, but both have many similarities.
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 05:16 PM
During an interview Michael said he had the trade infront of him and people said you can't do that trade so he called Pinnella and Lou said do it.Your right though they do have simialrities.Beane is just to much of a numbers nerd IMO.
Stupid Flanders
11-28-05, 05:20 PM
During an interview Michael said he had the trade infront of him and people said you can't do that trade so he called Pinnella and Lou said do it.Your right though they do have simialrities.Beane is just to much of a numbers nerd IMO.
Wait, wasn't Lou managing the Reds at that time? Why would the GM of one team call the manager of the other team for trade advice?
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-28-05, 05:21 PM
And he'd be the first to tell you that only 1 year of data is not enough to say with certainty that so and so is the best. Rowand has been, IIRC, either the best or 2nd best CF in the AL for at least the last 2 years and every metric I've seen has him the same.
I'm well aware of UZR's year-to-year fluctuations. 2 years wouldn't say anything for certain either. But in 2005 Logan was the ALs best CFer.
Logan, on the other hand, ranges from slightly below average to apparently the best in the AL. It's too early to tell, IMO.
How so? Last year he didn't play enough games to qualify for MGLs system...
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 05:21 PM
Lou was out as manager at the time.Thats why he called him.
Lou was out as manager at the time.Thats why he called him.I think he says so in the episode of Yankeeography.
Yankyfan
11-28-05, 05:24 PM
Could be the Interview I saw was on YES.
Wade_Taylor
11-28-05, 05:26 PM
In case anyone has insider on ESPN Gammons penned another colum http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2239213 (http:///insider.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2239213).
It includes this gem:
If the Yankees decide to move on Jason Michaels and/or Gathright -- and have enough to get them without touching Eric Duncan and Philip Hughes -- they may pass on Damon, even if they could get him for four years and $44 million.
I guess now that means we are getting neither. I cannot believe that it might cost us Hughes or Duncan to get Jason Michaels. If so then no thanks
Jason Michaels for Eric Duncan/Phil Hughes = Laugh riot.
I mean, it's funnier than "Earth to America".
AMYanks
11-28-05, 05:28 PM
EDIT: Had to re-read it, and it was also pointed out that the Gammons quote was mis-interpreted.
NelsonMuntz
11-28-05, 05:36 PM
In case anyone has insider on ESPN Gammons penned another colum http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2239213 (http:///insider.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2239213).
It includes this gem:
I guess now that means we are getting neither. I cannot believe that it might cost us Hughes or Duncan to get Jason Michaels. If so then no thanks
I like to poke fun at Gammons as much as the next guy, but isn't the point of this article that we could likely get Michaels or Gathright without trading Hughes or Duncan? :dunno:
JapanJobbers
11-28-05, 05:38 PM
I like to poke fun at Gammons as much as the next guy, but isn't the point of this article that we could likely get Michaels or Gathright without trading Hughes or Duncan? :dunno:
That's how I read it as well. I think he is saying that if they could get Michaels cheap, they would go that route and avoid Damon.
Johnny O
11-28-05, 05:44 PM
That's how I read it as well. I think he is saying that if they could get Michaels cheap, they would go that route and avoid Damon.
I read it that way too, and that's the way the Yankees should be and probably are thinking. If Cashman is adamant about keeping Cano & Wang, then that logic would obviously extend to Hughes & Duncan.
highheat2014
11-28-05, 07:21 PM
The Best AL CFer was Nook Logan not Rowand...
Those numbers are slightly skewed due to Logan playing in the Grand Canyon and Rowand in a bandbox (and now moving to another bandbox.)
Kulish29
11-28-05, 07:22 PM
There's no way Michaels will cost anything near Cano, Wang, Hughes or Duncan.
Crusadecat
11-28-05, 07:32 PM
I think this is exactly whats going to happen. Rowand will end up as a Yankee with us sending Wang or Pavano.
Kulish29
11-28-05, 07:37 PM
I think this is exactly whats going to happen. Rowand will end up as a Yankee with us sending Wang or Pavano.
They're not going to trade Rowand. They just got him to fill their CF hole.
I Love Wang
11-28-05, 07:53 PM
They're not going to trade Rowand. They just got him to fill their CF hole.
They got him to open up first for Howard. They'd move him in the right deal, if it improved their rotation.
Kulish29
11-28-05, 07:58 PM
They got him to open up first for Howard. They'd move him in the right deal, if it improved their rotation.
I dunno. The deal did two things for them. It allowed Ryan to move to 1st and it also filled their CF needs.
I dont see them dealing him unless some ridiculously good trade comes along.
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.7 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
0