View Full Version : Another One (Rowand) bites the dust...
tatanka9
11-22-05, 05:45 PM
It now appears that the name Aaron Rowand can be crossed off the list for CF in the Yankee line-up. Strong word out of Chicago is that the WSox are about to close a deal with the Phillies that would send Jim Thome to the WSox in exchange for Rowand and either Jose Contrearas or Brandon McCarthy, both pitchers. It appears that the idea of Sheffield to the WSox would have been reasonable. Contrary to the experts on this forum, Ken Williams, the WSox GM like to trade for players who won't be up for FA or renegotiation for a couple years. The WSox needed to fill their DH position.
FYI, McCarthy is a fireballer who showed great promise in several late season outings, including a strong performance against the BOSox in September.
OKAY, who's left???
27IsNext
11-22-05, 05:46 PM
Brad Wilkerson.
goin for 27
11-22-05, 05:48 PM
I would trade Thome for EITHER Rowand or Contreras. I don't get this deal. Thome is declining drastically, and has a huge contract. Are the Phillies eating the cash?
terminator
11-22-05, 05:49 PM
It now appears that the name Aaron Rowand can be crossed off the list for CF in the Yankee line-up. Strong word out of Chicago is that the WSox are about to close a deal with the Phillies that would send Jim Thome to the WSox in exchange for Rowand and either Jose Contrearas or Brandon McCarthy, both pitchers. It appears that the idea of Sheffield to the WSox would have been reasonable. Contrary to the experts on this forum, Ken Williams, the WSox GM like to trade for players who won't be up for FA or renegotiation for a couple years. The WSox needed to fill their DH position.
FYI, McCarthy is a fireballer who showed great promise in several late season outings, including a strong performance against the BOSox in September.
OKAY, who's left???
Jim Thome for Rowand + Contreras/Brandon isn't an unfair trade. Its daylight robbery.
I heard about the trade, but dismissed it because it sounds absolutely ridiculous. IMO, its not going to happen.
Wow, the chisox are STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID. They really don't wanna defend their title I guess.
SoCal Pinstriper
11-22-05, 05:51 PM
Does this mean that the Chisox think that Konerko is a lost cause?
Does this mean that the Chisox think that Konerko is a lost cause?
No they want their 06' season to be a lost cause.
whalers
11-22-05, 05:57 PM
Brad Wilkerson.
and Joey Gathright
Graziano at the Star-Ledger was saying that Rowand could go to Florida for Juan Pierre. Until I see a link with some credible evidence, I will just dismiss that as speculation.
But hey, if Rowand does go to Philly, I'm sure we would have a shot at snapping up Jason Michaels.
The Phillies' goal was to get rid of Thome's contract. If this deal goes down, it doesn't mean they are keeping any of the players they get. Actually, it might be easier to deal with them for Rowand than it was the White Sox.
Graziano at the Star-Ledger was saying that Rowand could go to Florida for Juan Pierre. Until I see a link with some credible evidence, I will just dismiss that as speculation.
:lol: Why don't they just put Rowand on waivers.
terminator
11-22-05, 06:03 PM
The Phillies' goal was to get rid of Thome's contract. If this deal goes down, it doesn't mean they are keeping any of the players they get.
I don't see why they wouldn't keep the players they get. If the deal goes down, the Phillies GM should be awarded GM of the year right now.
Rowand + McCarthy/Contreras for Thome? And they have Howard to play 1B?
I'd be interested to see a list of the most lopsided deals in the past 5 years.
hellonewman
11-22-05, 06:04 PM
Any :link: to this "strong word"?
RhodeyYankee2638
11-22-05, 06:04 PM
The CWS are taking a great chance. Thome, while injured last year, has had some monster seasons in the A.L. Rowand is a nice defeinsive player and can hit a little. Contreras' stock is as high as its ever been. I think its a wash trade
YankeePride1967
11-22-05, 06:06 PM
like that Sheffield for Blalock "trade rumor" last night, I'm going to wait for something more concrete before crossing him off the list.
MattUNC2003
11-22-05, 06:07 PM
Any :link: to this "strong word"?
Yeah, I've just checked a ton of websites and still haven't found word of it.
Anyone else have a headache due to this offseason?
Yanks Lifer
11-22-05, 06:09 PM
It now appears that the name Aaron Rowand can be crossed off the list for CF in the Yankee line-up. Strong word out of Chicago is that the WSox are about to close a deal with the Phillies that would send Jim Thome to the WSox in exchange for Rowand and either Jose Contrearas or Brandon McCarthy, both pitchers. It appears that the idea of Sheffield to the WSox would have been reasonable. Contrary to the experts on this forum, Ken Williams, the WSox GM like to trade for players who won't be up for FA or renegotiation for a couple years. The WSox needed to fill their DH position.
FYI, McCarthy is a fireballer who showed great promise in several late season outings, including a strong performance against the BOSox in September.
OKAY, who's left???
Strong word from who?? Is Chicago Pat Gillick's off season home?
DeputyFife
11-22-05, 06:10 PM
MB...
yanksphan
11-22-05, 06:10 PM
Anyone else have a headache due to this offseason?
Not at all. The real fun begins at the Winter Meetings in December...wait until you see who we're rumored to be trading for/away then!!!
Anyone else have a headache due to this offseason?
Nope. So far the Yankees haven't done anything stupid and the sox lost their "great" GM and made a stupid Tampa Yankees like move to get an overrated pitcher. Good offseason so far.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-22-05, 06:17 PM
Not at all. The real fun begins at the Winter Meetings in December...wait until you see who we're rumored to be trading for/away then!!!
I can already see Gammons reporting that we traded Duncan, Hughes, Tabata, Henry, Jackson, vechionacci and whoever for Jamie Moyer and PTBNL
YankeePride1967
11-22-05, 06:35 PM
Nope. So far the Yankees haven't done anything stupid and the sox lost their "great" GM and made a stupid Tampa Yankees like move to get an overrated pitcher. Good offseason so far.
Agreed and some other points to keep in mind for the fans out there.
1.) Just because Boston makes a move does not make it a national tragedy for the Yankees.
2.) The team does not have to be put together by Thanksgiving.
3.) Sanity has returned.
mchnyg2003
11-22-05, 06:47 PM
I'm just curious, does anyone know what Bubba's contract situation is?
BeantownYankee
11-22-05, 06:51 PM
Wow, the chisox are STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID. They really don't wanna defend their title I guess.
Looks like the marlins may only hold the title of stupidest trades of 2005 for a couple of days to replaced by the White sox. The good news no repeat for Chicago..
swityak11
11-22-05, 06:56 PM
I'm waiting for confirmation on this. This is just too ludicrous a trade to be anything but a rumor.
hardrain
11-22-05, 07:05 PM
I can not believe the WS would make such a crazy trade...This can not be true.
Murcer'swerebest
11-22-05, 07:26 PM
Wow. I can't believe the White Sox would so cavalierly let Brandon Mccarthy go. For anyone who hasn't seen him, he's a skinny skinny 6 foot 7 kid who really knows how to pitch. He pitched on labor day against Boston and stifled their offense.
He really knows how to pitch and he's cheap for a few years. Why would they trade him for injury risk and huge contract Jim Thome?
just-blaze
11-22-05, 07:51 PM
FYI, McCarthy is a fireballer who showed great promise in several late season outings, including a strong performance against the BOSox in September.
OKAY, who's left???
He is not a fireballer. He is a damn fine pitcher though and will be a top of the rotation pitcher in the near future.
Aside from his rocky debut this year, his minor league performance with his major league performance have been gold.
I find it hard to believe that the Sox would trade this untouchable. Then again, the Beckett deal was pretty unbelievable too.
Agreed and some other points to keep in mind for the fans out there.
1.) Just because Boston makes a move does not make it a national tragedy for the Yankees.
2.) The team does not have to be put together by Thanksgiving.
3.) Sanity has returned.
Agreed on all three points.
Looks like the marlins may only hold the title of stupidest trades of 2005 for a couple of days to replaced by the White sox. The good news no repeat for Chicago..
Who knows maybe the chisox will repeat. Afterall the umps are still here aren't they? ;)
whalers
11-22-05, 07:53 PM
Wow. I can't believe the White Sox would so cavalierly let Brandon Mccarthy go. For anyone who hasn't seen him, he's a skinny skinny 6 foot 7 kid who really knows how to pitch. He pitched on labor day against Boston and stifled their offense.
He really knows how to pitch and he's cheap for a few years. Why would they trade him for injury risk and huge contract Jim Thome?
I saw a couple of Mccarthy's start this season and he is too good of a pitcher to throw in a deal like this. I can understand Contreras, his value most likely will never be higher, plus he might have an easier time replicating his success in the NL. I wonder who would end up paying who's salary. Jose and Thome have some large contracts. I would imagine Philly would be eating most of Thomes salary if there is any truth to this rumor...most likely there is no truth to this rumor.
Yankee Bulldawg
11-22-05, 08:07 PM
that would be a really dumb move for the White Sox
Yankees1962
11-22-05, 08:20 PM
After making some smart baseball moves over the last two seasons, I can't take this stupid trade proposal seriously.
Chambliss
11-22-05, 09:09 PM
Where's this trade coming from? The White Sox are going to trade two good, healthy, reasonably priced players for Jim Thome? The same Jim Thome who missed pretty much all of last season, who's 34(?), and who is owed another 14M for each of the next three seasons? Oh yeah, and he'll be nothing more than a DH.
DiMaggio5CF
11-22-05, 09:21 PM
The White Sox are getting hosed.
Thome for Rowand straight-up makes a lot of sense because both are getting squeezed out by youngsters. But why would Chicago add a pitcher?
And the fact that the pitcher given up will be either their playoff Game 1 starter or a bright young up-and-comer is even more mind-boggling.
Wang's Groundballs
11-22-05, 09:24 PM
Wow, the chisox are STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID. They really don't wanna defend their title I guess.
This is seriously the dumbest ................ing thing I've heard this offseason. How the hell do you justify trading a great CF and either one of your best starters or best prospect for someone making over $14 million a year, is about 35, and sucked a big bag of dicks last year.
RhodyYanksFan
11-22-05, 10:02 PM
I really can't grasp this. My mind doesn't work that way. I know a fair amount about baseball, I have 2 college degrees and I can't think of one reason why the White Sox would do something like this. It makes absoluetly no sense. I'm not believeing anything until I see a quote.
PaidYoung
11-22-05, 10:21 PM
It now appears that the name Aaron Rowand can be crossed off the list for CF in the Yankee line-up. Strong word out of Chicago is that the WSox are about to close a deal with the Phillies that would send Jim Thome to the WSox in exchange for Rowand and either Jose Contrearas or Brandon McCarthy, both pitchers. It appears that the idea of Sheffield to the WSox would have been reasonable. Contrary to the experts on this forum, Ken Williams, the WSox GM like to trade for players who won't be up for FA or renegotiation for a couple years. The WSox needed to fill their DH position.
FYI, McCarthy is a fireballer who showed great promise in several late season outings, including a strong performance against the BOSox in September.
OKAY, who's left???
Lol whoever wrote that rumor is on cocaine cause that ish is not true...kenny williams just re-built a good farm system and he's not going to tear it down for jim thome nor will he trade his best pitcher last year (contreras) for thome..if u believe this you're stupid.
Yanks we don't need rowand....giles or juan pierre anyway get m'fing Furcal...he wants to play here and is a young and is the best pure hitter out of all our options. Furcal is also a great baserunner like pierre sometimes giles can no longer offer and furcal has the strongest arm.
I Love Wang
11-22-05, 10:24 PM
Lol whoever wrote that rumor is on cocaine cause that ish is not true...kenny williams just re-built a good farm system and he's not going to tear it down for jim thome nor will he trade his best pitcher last year (contreras) for thome..if u believe this you're stupid.
Yanks we don't need rowand....giles or juan pierre anyway get m'fing Furcal...he wants to play here and is a young and is the best pure hitter out of all our options. Furcal is also a great baserunner like pierre sometimes giles can no longer offer and furcal has the strongest arm.
How is Furcal a better hitter than Giles?
NelsonMuntz
11-22-05, 10:30 PM
I love how we are getting all bent out of shape over an internet rumor. There's no way there is any truth to this.
AMYanks
11-22-05, 10:35 PM
he wants to play here and is a young and is the best pure hitter out of all our options.
Just so we're clear, you're saying Furcal is a better hitter than Giles?
PaidYoung
11-22-05, 10:37 PM
How is Furcal a better hitter than Giles?
giles was exposed @ petco...furcal can hit as high average wise and let's see last year @ petco giles hit 15 homers where furcal hit i think 14 in turner field which is not exactly a hitter's haven. and the all important stat furcal is 27....giles 34....furcal is faster and has a stronger arm...do you want a dynasty or a short window where if you lose it will be hard to get back up( I.E.: the current situation)
PaidYoung
11-22-05, 10:38 PM
Just so we're clear, you're saying Furcal is a better hitter than Giles?
i would choose furcal on my team before giles ...i said the same thing about scott posednik last year over carlos lee...call me crazy. Players give themselves up alot...reducing their batting average...
DiMaggio5CF
11-22-05, 10:41 PM
giles was exposed @ petco...furcal can hit as high average wise and let's see last year @ petco giles hit 15 homers where furcal hit i think 14 in turner field which is not exactly a hitter's haven. and the all important stat furcal is 27....giles 34....furcal is faster and has a stronger arm...do you want a dynasty or a short window where if you lose it will be hard to get back up( I.E.: the current situation)
Giles was exposed at Petco because Petco sucks for left-handed hitters. Yankee Stadium was literally built for left-handers.
AMYanks
11-22-05, 10:41 PM
giles was exposed @ petco...furcal can hit as high average wise and let's see last year @ petco giles hit 15 homers where furcal hit i think 14 in turner field which is not exactly a hitter's haven. and the all important stat furcal is 27....giles 34....furcal is faster and has a stronger arm...do you want a dynasty or a short window where if you lose it will be hard to get back up( I.E.: the current situation)
Giles OPS+ - 148
Furcal OPS+ - 100
Giles is an incredibly better hitter.
AMYanks
11-22-05, 10:42 PM
i would choose furcal on my team before giles ...i said the same thing about scott posednik last year over carlos lee...call me crazy. Players give themselves up alot...reducing their batting average...
Well then... you're crazy.
tatanka9
11-22-05, 11:29 PM
Sorry it took so long to post more info on this. Info came from the ESPN 1000 baseball reporter, who has benn extremely tied in to what is going on with the White Sox. Reason seems to be that WSox giving up on Thomas and Carl Everett leaves a big power hole in the line-up and Konerko needs to be reassured that there will be another bat (It's only Jermaine Dye right now) to be willing to re-sign with the team. It may be a rash move made to re-sign their biggest FA. WSox have an abundance of SP and AA/AAA OF's in the pipeline, so they are looking at it as spending a strength to cover a glaring weakness. Williams has always cited his desire to get players with 2-3 years under current contract to avoid FA problems or early negotiations.
(WHY he traded Foulke for the old Blue Jays Closer who went to Oakland)
Kulish29
11-23-05, 02:12 PM
This is reaching and is by no means official but, on Big Blue Interactive (a NY Giants fansite) a poster there is reporting he saw on ESPNEWS that Rowand was traded to the Phils for Thome.
I know it's not the most reliable source, just posting what I saw.
BRNXBMRS
11-23-05, 02:16 PM
Shakes head in disgust. :(
RobbiMan
11-23-05, 02:24 PM
This is reaching and is by no means official but, on Big Blue Interactive (a NY Giants fansite) a poster there is reporting he saw on ESPNEWS that Rowand was traded to the Phils for Thome.
I know it's not the most reliable source, just posting what I saw.
It's on ESPN's MLB site now. Olney says it's close to being done.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index
I Love Wang
11-23-05, 02:29 PM
giles was exposed @ petco...furcal can hit as high average wise and let's see last year @ petco giles hit 15 homers where furcal hit i think 14 in turner field which is not exactly a hitter's haven. and the all important stat furcal is 27....giles 34....furcal is faster and has a stronger arm...do you want a dynasty or a short window where if you lose it will be hard to get back up( I.E.: the current situation)
This is total nonsense. There is no way Furcal is anywhere near Giles as a hitter. Furcal is an average hitter, Giles is an elite one. Giles had a 1.008 road OPS last year, while playing his home games in one of the worst hitting parks in baseball.
The Yankee Captain
11-23-05, 02:36 PM
He is not a fireballer. He is a damn fine pitcher though and will be a top of the rotation pitcher in the near future.
Aside from his rocky debut this year, his minor league performance with his major league performance have been gold.
I find it hard to believe that the Sox would trade this untouchable. Then again, the Beckett deal was pretty unbelievable too.
I was looking for this. McCarthy is NOT a fireballer. Which doesn't mean he's not going to be a very good pitcher though.
Panamaniac42
11-23-05, 02:38 PM
batting leadoff...the centerfielder...johnny...damon
It's on ESPN's MLB site now. Olney says it's close to being done.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index
So the White Sox don't give up pitching and they get cash...not quite the same.
If this goes through, the Yankees likely call Philly about Rowand. I think the purpose of the deal from the Phillis standpoint was to get rid of Thome, not, in particular, get Rowand. Since the White Sox didn't think they were a good match with the Yankees, this is actually an opportunity to discuss Rowand with a clean slate. If nothing else, it may mean that Michaels is available.
I Love Wang
11-23-05, 02:39 PM
batting leadoff...the centerfielder...johnny...damon
That better be the visiting team, or I'm drinking hemlock.
PaidYoung
11-23-05, 02:40 PM
It's on ESPN's MLB site now. Olney says it's close to being done.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index
my god the original rumor was so off as we thought a rowand for thome straight up swap makes sense which this is but the other trade was ridiculous.
RobbiMan
11-23-05, 02:40 PM
So the White Sox don't give up pitching and they get cash...not quite the same.
If this goes through, the Yankees likely call Philly about Rowand. I think the purpose of the deal from the Phillis standpoint was to get rid of Thome, not, in particular, get Rowand. Since the White Sox didn't think they were a good match with the Yankees, this is actually an opportunity to discuss Rowand with a clean slate. If nothing else, it may mean that Michaels is available.
But what will the Phillies ask for? I'd bet any conversation starts with Wang because he is an extreme groundball pitcher. He would be a much needed asset in that little league park in Philly. Wang for Rowand anyone? Anyone?
BeantownYankee
11-23-05, 02:41 PM
This is reaching and is by no means official but, on Big Blue Interactive (a NY Giants fansite) a poster there is reporting he saw on ESPNEWS that Rowand was traded to the Phils for Thome.
I know it's not the most reliable source, just posting what I saw.
and thus a new drought for the chisox begins!;)
RobbiMan
11-23-05, 02:43 PM
and thus a new drought for the chisox begins!;)
Don't count on it, they have a highly touted prospect to step in and Thome might be the chip that helps bring Konerko back...especially because the Phillies are subsidizing much of Thome's deal. This could make the White Sox even more formidable next year. They lose no pitching and could possibly bolster their lineup.
whalers
11-23-05, 02:44 PM
It's on ESPN's MLB site now. Olney says it's close to being done.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index
I am confused. Do the sox think Konerko is gone or do they just want two power hitting 1b's and rotate them between DH and 1b?
Big Daddy
11-23-05, 02:44 PM
batting leadoff...the centerfielder...johnny...damon
Ha! ummm...you might not have been joking huh?
NYDCYankee
11-23-05, 02:45 PM
Wow. What an offseason so far? I can't believe this just happened. Remember Thome wasn't exactly healthy last year. Is this the WS trying to remind everyone they are stupid?
I will say though. If he is healthy and playing, he will hit a ton of homers in US Cellular.
So now Philly has Michaels and Rowand...Rosenthal also said they might be making Abreu available. We should be able to work something out with them right? They certianly could use some starting pitching.
noneckwilliams
11-23-05, 02:45 PM
Agreed and some other points to keep in mind for the fans out there.
1.) Just because Boston makes a move does not make it a national tragedy for the Yankees.
2.) The team does not have to be put together by Thanksgiving.
3.) Sanity has returned.
Nope. So far the Yankees haven't done anything stupid and the sox lost their "great" GM and made a stupid Tampa Yankees like move to get an overrated pitcher. Good offseason so far.
It's good to see that at least two people are remaining calm. Cash seems to have made a lot of inquiries and dipped hos toe in a lot situations but has stuck to his guns. Eventually he will get what he wanst at a better price. Remember the Chacon trade? He held out, waited and got him at a lesser price.
JeffWeaverFan
11-23-05, 02:47 PM
Rowand could still be traded by the Phillies. If not, then they will trade Jason Michaels. I would love either.
But what will the Phillies ask for? I'd bet any conversation starts with Wang because he is an extreme groundball pitcher. He would be a much needed asset in that little league park in Philly. Wang for Rowand anyone? Anyone?
Then you say no and see if they would want anything else. The worst thing that happens is, you're no worse off than you were with Chicago, accept that Chicago didn't have another CF who may now be on the table.
ShaneTravis
11-23-05, 02:50 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/
ESPN's Buster Olney is reporting that Jim Thome will be traded to the White Sox in a deal including Aaron Rowand.
The White Sox surely will get plenty of cash to cover a portion of Thome's salary, but even so, it seems like a very good trade for the Phillies. Rowand could be kept and used in center field over Jason Michaels and Shane Victorino or moved to another team for pitching. If the Phillies want to keep Rowand, then Michaels could be moved.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-23-05, 02:51 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/
ESPN's Buster Olney is reporting that Jim Thome will be traded to the White Sox in a deal including Aaron Rowand.
The White Sox surely will get plenty of cash to cover a portion of Thome's salary, but even so, it seems like a very good trade for the Phillies. Rowand could be kept and used in center field over Jason Michaels and Shane Victorino or moved to another team for pitching. If the Phillies want to keep Rowand, then Michaels could be moved.
Pavano for Rowand anyone? The Phillies staff isn't all that to write home about.
NYDCYankee
11-23-05, 02:51 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/
ESPN's Buster Olney is reporting that Jim Thome will be traded to the White Sox in a deal including Aaron Rowand.
The White Sox surely will get plenty of cash to cover a portion of Thome's salary, but even so, it seems like a very good trade for the Phillies. Rowand could be kept and used in center field over Jason Michaels and Shane Victorino or moved to another team for pitching. If the Phillies want to keep Rowand, then Michaels could be moved.
So do we smell another move?
NYDCYankee
11-23-05, 02:52 PM
Pavano for Rowand anyone? The Phillies staff isn't all that to write home about.
That makes a ton of sense.
JeffWeaverFan
11-23-05, 02:53 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/
ESPN's Buster Olney is reporting that Jim Thome will be traded to the White Sox in a deal including Aaron Rowand.
The White Sox surely will get plenty of cash to cover a portion of Thome's salary, but even so, it seems like a very good trade for the Phillies. Rowand could be kept and used in center field over Jason Michaels and Shane Victorino or moved to another team for pitching. If the Phillies want to keep Rowand, then Michaels could be moved.
The Yankees have to get on this right away. I wouldn't trade Wang but if we could trade Pavano + cash, I'd love to make that deal. Chacon is another option but I'm not sure how interested Philly in that ballpark since he is a flyball pitcher.
ShaneTravis
11-23-05, 02:53 PM
Rowand could still be traded by the Phillies. If not, then they will trade Jason Michaels. I would love either.
Maybe the Rowand deal makes Michaels available.
289 at bats in 2005 .304 .399 .415 .814
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.asp?leaguenum=&sport=MLB&majteam=PHI
"The Yankees have asked the Phillies about Jason Michaels and repeatedly have been told he isn't available.
Michaels could take over as the Phillies' primary center fielder next season. He doesn't have the range to be anything more than adequate in center, but his on-base skills and modest salary make him valuable. He'll probably command about $1.5 million in arbitration. "
JeffWeaverFan
11-23-05, 02:54 PM
Pavano for Rowand anyone? The Phillies staff isn't all that to write home about.
Yeah, but it has to be Pavano plus about $12 million I think. Or else why not just sign Millwood or Washburn?
Panamaniac42
11-23-05, 02:55 PM
That makes a ton of sense.
Indeed it does...get er done.
It now appears that the name Aaron Rowand can be crossed off the list for CF in the Yankee line-up. Strong word out of Chicago is that the WSox are about to close a deal with the Phillies that would send Jim Thome to the WSox in exchange for Rowand and either Jose Contrearas or Brandon McCarthy, both pitchers. It appears that the idea of Sheffield to the WSox would have been reasonable. Contrary to the experts on this forum, Ken Williams, the WSox GM like to trade for players who won't be up for FA or renegotiation for a couple years. The WSox needed to fill their DH position.
FYI, McCarthy is a fireballer who showed great promise in several late season outings, including a strong performance against the BOSox in September.
OKAY, who's left???
If they are going to trade Rowand and McCarthy for Thome, why didn't they just give the Marlins Rowand and McCarthy for Deglado? That is a better package than what the Mets gave up.
ShaneTravis
11-23-05, 02:56 PM
Pavano for Rowand anyone? The Phillies staff isn't all that to write home about.
Uhh yeah in a heartbeat. Yanks would have to eat a little cash but pick up the phone and see who is available and what cost.
Rowand or Michaels = much better than what we had last year.
Kulish29
11-23-05, 02:56 PM
So the White Sox don't give up pitching and they get cash...not quite the same.
If this goes through, the Yankees likely call Philly about Rowand. I think the purpose of the deal from the Phillis standpoint was to get rid of Thome, not, in particular, get Rowand. Since the White Sox didn't think they were a good match with the Yankees, this is actually an opportunity to discuss Rowand with a clean slate. If nothing else, it may mean that Michaels is available.
I agree. I like the potential this has for the Yankees.
Kulish29
11-23-05, 02:58 PM
If, IF, Pavano does not like NY, he'd likely hate Philly. Their fans are rabid.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-23-05, 02:58 PM
Yeah, but it has to be Pavano plus about $12 million I think. Or else why not just sign Millwood or Washburn?
I'm sure the Yankees might have to throw some cash in there, but the Phillies have money, and they also freed themselves from Thome's contract. And Millwood was run out of town there, he's not welcome back. Washburn is an option for them, for sure, but if the Yankees kick in money, Pavano is probably the better alternative, and he's also pitched in their division, a big plus because of the weighted schedules. I really hope Cash is on the phone trying for it, this seems like a match.
YankeeFan1
11-23-05, 03:00 PM
I don't think that the Yankees should trade Pavano for anyone. He is a good pitcher when healthy.
ShaneTravis
11-23-05, 03:01 PM
So do we smell another move?
This is step one for Phillies. Something else is brewing. They wanted to get rid of Thome....for anyone. Phillies want pitching this offseason and getting rid of Thome frees up some payroll and now gives them two centerfielders.
Rowand or Michaels is going to be moved for pitching....for whom remains to be seen.
I was just looking at Michaels' stats. They look promising. Can anyone tell me why the Phillies haven't given this guys a full season yet? He's almost 30, which isn't exactly young in baseball, why should we care about him now? If he wasn't good enough to play for the Phillies, why would he be good enough to play the most prestegious centerfield in baseball?
YankeeStripes
11-23-05, 03:03 PM
batting leadoff...the centerfielder...johnny...damon
Batting second....shortstop..Edgar Renteria
NYDCYankee
11-23-05, 03:04 PM
If, IF, Pavano does not like NY, he'd likely hate Philly. Their fans are rabid.
I say tough noogies to him.
JeffWeaverFan
11-23-05, 03:04 PM
I don't think that the Yankees should trade Pavano for anyone. He is a good pitcher when healthy.
Even if he is a very good pitcher when healthy and if he does like it here, he should still be traded because a guy like Rowand's (I'm not so sure about how good Michaels' defense is but I think it's good) defense would improve the pitching staff much more than Pavano pitching once every 5 days.
Get 'er done Cash!
Kulish29
11-23-05, 03:05 PM
This is step one for Phillies. Something else is brewing. They wanted to get rid of Thome....for anyone. Phillies want pitching this offseason and getting rid of Thome frees up some payroll and now gives them two centerfielders.
Rowand or Michaels is going to be moved for pitching....for whom remains to be seen.
Conspiracy theory: Did Cashman have a part in the deal so he could get Rowand from a team other than the W. Sox?
JeffWeaverFan
11-23-05, 03:05 PM
I say tough noogies to him.
As do I! :D (To be fair though, their media isn't as bad as ours and maybe he'll like his teammates more than he likes his Yankee teammates).
JeffWeaverFan
11-23-05, 03:06 PM
Conspiracy theory: Did Cashman have a part in the deal so he could get Rowand from a team other than the W. Sox?
I think that if he did, it would just be a 3 team deal. He's defintely working the phones right now though.
RobbiMan
11-23-05, 03:07 PM
Conspiracy theory: Did Cashman have a part in the deal so he could get Rowand from a team other than the W. Sox?
What?
RhodeyYankee2638
11-23-05, 03:07 PM
Conspiracy theory: Did Cashman have a part in the deal so he could get Rowand from a team other than the W. Sox?
Why wouldn't they make it a 3 way deal?
ShaneTravis
11-23-05, 03:07 PM
I don't think that the Yankees should trade Pavano for anyone. He is a good pitcher when healthy.
???
Pavano should be the first to go. Name one pitcher on the staff that contributed less last year (beside Brown).
You wouldn't trade Carl for A. Rowand?
Here is what Ken WIlliams had to say about trading A.R.
The Yankees asked the White Sox about center fielder Aaron Rowand, but they were told by GM Ken Williams that there was no potential for a match.
It's not out of the realm of possibility that Rowand will be dealt, but the White Sox would probably be better off waiting a year. Brian Anderson hasn't proven he's ready to take over in center field. If Rowand isn't an option, the Yankees could look at trading for Milton Bradley, Brad Wilkerson or Juan Pierre. Bradley's issues reportedly have much of the club's front office against a potential deal, but he's plenty talented and he'd come cheap.
The whitesox have pitching, Phillies do not. There is a match between the Yanks (7 starters ) and the Phillies.
Giving up Pavano for Rowand (.329 .407 .736) who can cover an immense amount of ground should be done yesterday.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-23-05, 03:10 PM
As long as we are inquiring about Rowand, mine as well ask about Abreu as well
Kulish29
11-23-05, 03:10 PM
What?
It's just a theory.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-23-05, 03:12 PM
It now appears that the name Aaron Rowand can be crossed off the list for CF in the Yankee line-up. Strong word out of Chicago is that the WSox are about to close a deal with the Phillies that would send Jim Thome to the WSox in exchange for Rowand and either Jose Contrearas or Brandon McCarthy, both pitchers. It appears that the idea of Sheffield to the WSox would have been reasonable. Contrary to the experts on this forum, Ken Williams, the WSox GM like to trade for players who won't be up for FA or renegotiation for a couple years. The WSox needed to fill their DH position.
FYI, McCarthy is a fireballer who showed great promise in several late season outings, including a strong performance against the BOSox in September.
OKAY, who's left???
Thats the most insane trade I ever heard.
JeffWeaverFan
11-23-05, 03:12 PM
As long as we are inquiring about Rowand, mine as well ask about Abreu as well
Great player but he'd cost too much player-wise I think.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-23-05, 03:13 PM
Thats the most insane trade I ever heard.
Well, Contreras was left out of it, if it makes you feel any better
RhodeyYankee2638
11-23-05, 03:14 PM
Great player but he'd cost too much player-wise I think.
Doesn't hurt to ask. I'd be willing to part with Pavano and a minor leaguer, maybe Wright. I'd love to sign Millwood, so I wouldn't mind seeing 1 or both of them gone
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-23-05, 03:16 PM
Even without Contreras, the trade is very ny mets like. Thome is an automatic out.
ShaneTravis
11-23-05, 03:19 PM
Doesn't hurt to ask. I'd be willing to part with Pavano and a minor leaguer, maybe Wright. I'd love to sign Millwood, so I wouldn't mind seeing 1 or both of them gone
Exactly. Millwood,Washburn, even Byrd are all free agents and better bets than Pavano or Wright.
Yanks are at an advantage when starting pitching is concerned. To use that to get centerfield help or corner help...do it.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-23-05, 03:20 PM
Why couldn't we trade Sheff for Rowand?
whalers
11-23-05, 03:21 PM
Why couldn't we trade Sheff for Rowand?
Because that is moronic. Sheff is one of the best hitters in the game and is worth waaaaaay more than just Rowand.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-23-05, 03:24 PM
Because that is moronic. Sheff is one of the best hitters in the game and is worth waaaaaay more than just Rowand.
I just use that as an example. Because the Phillies are able to get away with trading a guy who is an automatic out for a speedy outfielder.
the trade is official. as per ESPN
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2234843
Bernie Inferno
11-23-05, 03:28 PM
Why wouldn't they make it a 3 way deal? Maybe Chicago is fearful of helping out the Yankees, an AL rival.
RobbiMan
11-23-05, 03:29 PM
the trade is official. as per ESPN
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2234843
Not until both players (read: Thome) pass a physical.
Yankees1962
11-23-05, 03:32 PM
I just use that as an example. Because the Phillies are able to get away with trading a guy who is an automatic out for a speedy outfielder.
I'm not so sure that Thome is shot after one bad year in which he was hurt. We thought the same thing about Giambi until mid-season in 2005. Obviously, the WS think there is something left in Thome's tank, but the key to whether that's true or not is his health.
I don't understand why they made this deal. Thome is old and is making a lot of money. Why don't they just use the money to resign Konerko or trade for Deglado. Its not like the Mets gave up a lot for Deglado.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-23-05, 03:36 PM
Because that is moronic. Sheff is one of the best hitters in the game and is worth waaaaaay more than just Rowand.
They were willing to trade Sheff for Cameron.
CaptainThurman
11-23-05, 03:36 PM
Didn't I just read on ESPN that Thome has a no-trade clause?
Bernie Inferno
11-23-05, 03:37 PM
Didn't I just read on ESPN that Thome has a no-trade clause? He does but is likely to accept it as he is from Peoria, IL.
whalers
11-23-05, 03:39 PM
They were willing to trade Sheff for Cameron.
Find me a quote from the Yankees that confirms this. You wont so dont bother. Sheff on the open market would land more than Cameron or Rowand alone.
I Love Wang
11-23-05, 03:39 PM
They were willing to trade Sheff for Cameron.
No, they weren't. Thats why it didn't happen.
Yankees1962
11-23-05, 03:40 PM
I don't understand why they made this deal. Thome is old and is making a lot of money. Why don't they just use the money to resign Konerko or trade for Deglado. Its not like the Mets gave up a lot for Deglado.
Maybe, the Phillies are picking up most of the contract?
Maybe, the Phillies are picking up most of the contract?
Have they annnouced how much cash the Phillies will be giving the White Sox?
Yankees1962
11-23-05, 03:43 PM
Have they annnouced how much cash the Phillies will be giving the White Sox?
That is exactly what I'm waiting for because it will tell us whether Thome is replacing Frank Thomas or Konerko.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-23-05, 03:43 PM
Find me a quote from the Yankees that confirms this. You wont so dont bother. Sheff on the open market would land more than Cameron or Rowand alone.
The NY Post had the trade proposal on the back page. Sheff got pissed when he found out. Then Omar and Cash blamed each other for coming up the proposal This was in July. Ask anyone on this forum from the New your area.
RobbiMan
11-23-05, 03:44 PM
Find me a quote from the Yankees that confirms this. You wont so dont bother. Sheff on the open market would land more than Cameron or Rowand alone.
Prior to the collision, the Mets nearly pulled the trigger on deals with the Yankees for Gary Sheffield and with the Boston Red Sox for Manny Ramirez - with Cameron as the centerpiece of both trades.
Look just below Xavier Nady's info box.
http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTImZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4MTcyNTEmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
StatenIslandYankee
11-23-05, 03:44 PM
Not until both players (read: Thome) pass a physical.
He'll pass it
whalers
11-23-05, 03:49 PM
Look just below Xavier Nady's info box.
http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTImZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4MTcyNTEmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
This is speculation.
RobbiMan
11-23-05, 03:50 PM
This is speculation.
There are more...I can post them. Where there was smoke......
whalers
11-23-05, 03:55 PM
There are more...I can post them. Where there was smoke......
I heard Cashman go on 1050 after this trade came out last season and he denied it. I am not asking you to quote sports writers speculation.
I Love Wang
11-23-05, 03:58 PM
There are more...I can post them. Where there was smoke......
Where's there smoke, there's smoke. The number of bull................ trade ideas that get floated by people completely out of the loop is unbelievable. Sheffield was never getting traded for just Cameron.
BeantownYankee
11-23-05, 04:15 PM
???
Pavano should be the first to go. Name one pitcher on the staff that contributed less last year (beside Brown).
You wouldn't trade Carl for A. Rowand?
Here is what Ken WIlliams had to say about trading A.R.
The Yankees asked the White Sox about center fielder Aaron Rowand, but they were told by GM Ken Williams that there was no potential for a match.
It's not out of the realm of possibility that Rowand will be dealt, but the White Sox would probably be better off waiting a year. Brian Anderson hasn't proven he's ready to take over in center field. If Rowand isn't an option, the Yankees could look at trading for Milton Bradley, Brad Wilkerson or Juan Pierre. Bradley's issues reportedly have much of the club's front office against a potential deal, but he's plenty talented and he'd come cheap.
The whitesox have pitching, Phillies do not. There is a match between the Yanks (7 starters ) and the Phillies.
Giving up Pavano for Rowand (.329 .407 .736) who can cover an immense amount of ground should be done yesterday.
There's also a match between the Red Sox and Phillies who also need a CF and have extra starters. They could offer Clement or Arroyo for Rowan. :(
Yankees13
11-23-05, 04:19 PM
They have a glut of outfielders, if they plan on keeping Rowand, ask about Jason Michaels.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-23-05, 04:20 PM
There's also a match between the Red Sox and Phillies who also need a CF and have extra starters. They could offer Clement or Arroyo for Rowan. :(
Not sure about that. If they try and trade for Rowand, they'll essentially pull out of the Damon sweepstakes and, probably for all intents and purposes, remove Damon's own negotiating leverage against the Yankees and hand him to the Yankees in a 3-4 year deal, which is what the Yankees are willing to give (reportedly). The Sox need to keep Damon more than the Yankees need to sign him, so I doubt that they make the first move.
PaidYoung
11-23-05, 04:24 PM
we want to trade pavano for rowand now? look @ rowand's stats in the playoffs and his overall performance with the white sox...he is not that good of a player you're looking @ nothing more than a .275 hitter with maybe 20 hr potential....he can get his average up if he is hitting around a good hitting I.E. the 2004 white sox and the yankees would be that this year. But also rowand is not a tremendous defender, he is a good but not the most amazing defender. Pavano for rowand = nope...we need to stop spending money on our starters and just let them be. Pavano showed flashes last year of being good and he's only 30. If anyone needs to be traded it should be mike mussina. Only trade that could work out would be mussina for rowand..nothing else..wang..whoever... Rowand is 28 so he'll be adequate for quite some time and he'll always pay hard but don't break the bank and make us end up paying his salary along with pavano's for the next 4 years.Mussina contract comes off the books in 2006 and he's still an innings eater..mussina and some lower tier prospects can maybe grab rowand?
RobbiMan
11-23-05, 04:28 PM
Not sure about that. If they try and trade for Rowand, they'll essentially pull out of the Damon sweepstakes and, probably for all intents and purposes, remove Damon's own negotiating leverage against the Yankees and hand him to the Yankees in a 3-4 year deal, which is what the Yankees are willing to give (reportedly). The Sox need to keep Damon more than the Yankees need to sign him, so I doubt that they make the first move.
Why do the Sox need to keep Damon? Sure he is a good leadoff hitter, but his contract demands could hamstring a team for a long time. Rowand provides excellent defense and does a decent job getting on base. Decent, not great, not prolific, just decent. If any team gives Damon more than 3 years, then Boras will have won again, and yet another team will be stuck with an overpaid Boras client who will begin to decline.
BeantownYankee
11-23-05, 04:29 PM
Not sure about that. If they try and trade for Rowand, they'll essentially pull out of the Damon sweepstakes and, probably for all intents and purposes, remove Damon's own negotiating leverage against the Yankees and hand him to the Yankees in a 3-4 year deal, which is what the Yankees are willing to give (reportedly). The Sox need to keep Damon more than the Yankees need to sign him, so I doubt that they make the first move.
I don't know about that. I think the sox are looking at a Youth movement and cleaning house.
Not saying your wrong, just don't underestimate what they may pull.
DeputyFife
11-23-05, 04:35 PM
That was funny, I changed my sig about an hour ago, came back on here and the first thing I see is that the Yankees have traded for Bradley. Then I find out it's a fake rumor. Oh well. I sure as heck don't want Damon here, and I'd prefer Bradley over Rowand.
Kulish29
11-23-05, 04:38 PM
That was funny, I changed my sig about an hour ago, came back on here and the first thing I see is that the Yankees have traded for Bradley. Then I find out it's a fake rumor. Oh well. I sure as heck don't want Damon here, and I'd prefer Bradley over Rowand.
I'd prefer Bradley over Rowand only if Rowand's price was ridiculous. But if the price for Rowand is reasonable, I'd go with Rowand.
We need to offer pitching for Jason Michaels ASAP.
Maybe they would be interested in Henn, DeSalvo or Small.
DeputyFife
11-23-05, 04:41 PM
I'd prefer Bradley over Rowand only if Rowand's price was ridiculous. But if the price for Rowand is reasonable, I'd go with Rowand.
I'd be happy with either one, but I like Bradley's crazzy ass for some reason. I like fire starters, and I think this team could use one.
PaidYoung
11-23-05, 04:41 PM
what people need to understand is that the whitesox unlike our team have a good farm system and have young budding outfielders in the wing in the form of sweeney, young and anderson...all 3 of these guys have speed, power and an arm...so they can replace rowand.
The way I see it, Williams was thinking about the following scenarios when he made this trade:
1. Thomas' health is too much of a concern; Konerko will re-sign; thus, Thome replaces Thomas/Everett at DH, and Konerko remains at 1B.
2. Thomas is healthy; Konerko signs with Los Angeles; thus, Thomas is the DH, and Thome plays 1B.
3. Thomas health is too risky; Konerko leaves; thus, Thome remains as the 1B, Due moves to DH, and another move is made to secure a RF.
4. Both Thomas and Konerko remain with team; Thome and Thomas platoon, with Thome receiving most of the playing time. If any of three players is injured, two remain in the lineup until the third returns.
i mean don't diss our competition the white sox did not win out of luck last year...their gm built that team and has a vision..they will be a force to contend with.
NelsonMuntz
11-23-05, 04:46 PM
the trade is official. as per ESPN
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2234843
Shows you what I know. I thought for sure this was just a b.s. internet rumor.
AMYanks
11-23-05, 04:55 PM
Hopefully Michaels is available now.
PaidYoung
11-23-05, 04:59 PM
Have they annnouced how much cash the Phillies will be giving the White Sox?
per Comcast SportsNet Philly
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">On Wednesday, the Phillies confirmed that they had traded Thome and considerable cash considerations in the neighborhood of $24 to $30 million to the World Series champion Chicago White Sox for center fielder Aaron Rowand.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
This isn't too dissapointing....The only thing I am angry about is the fact that the Yanks had no chips to attract the White Sox into trading him to NY. That may hinder the rest of the offseason's progress, as well.
PaidYoung
11-23-05, 05:02 PM
I'd be happy with either one, but I like Bradley's crazzy ass for some reason. I like fire starters, and I think this team could use one.
amen if the yankees can grab milton bradley for say jaret wright(dodgers need starting pitching right now they have penny,lowe,odaLIS perez and possibly edwin jackson), mussina(his contract comes up after 2006) and a prospect... I'd do it in a minute... then sign washburn, farnsworth, ryan and trade for mota
we'd be set. But again you guys probably wouldn't like it after observing this board..
Kulish29
11-23-05, 05:04 PM
This isn't too dissapointing....The only thing I am angry about is the fact that the Yanks had no chips to attract the White Sox into trading him to NY. That may hinder the rest of the offseason's progress, as well.
I wouldnt be too angry. This may make it easier for the Yankees to either try to get Rowand from the Phils or get Jason Michaels.
Bernie Inferno
11-23-05, 05:13 PM
I wouldnt be too angry. This may make it easier for the Yankees to either try to get Rowand from the Phils or get Jason Michaels. I think it is easier also because our needs actually match up.
MassNYYfan
11-23-05, 05:20 PM
Have they annnouced how much cash the Phillies will be giving the White Sox?
I heard $22m on either SportsCenter or ESPNews a little while ago.
Yanks Lifer
11-23-05, 05:44 PM
So, just how long will George allow Johnny Damon to wear his hair? :-ponder-:
PaidYoung
11-23-05, 05:46 PM
Wow the sox are stupid.
really post like these make me question the inteligence of some posters...do some re-search first please. Anyway though...yanks please get milton bradley or furcal..no one else!
really post like these make me question the inteligence of some posters...do some re-search first please. Anyway though...yanks please get milton bradley or furcal..no one else!
This coming from the guy who thinks Podsednik is the reason the whitesox won. Please, continue embarrassing yourself.
I Love Wang
11-23-05, 06:29 PM
really post like these make me question the inteligence of some posters...do some re-search first please. Anyway though...yanks please get milton bradley or furcal..no one else!
I know how you feel.
Yankees1962
11-23-05, 06:55 PM
It's looking like Thome is replacing Thomas as DH with the amount of money being rumored going back to the WS since they did give up a pretty good ballplayer in return to the Phillies. Another bit of information is that the Konerko's agent is also the agent for Thome which isn't a coincidence in my opinion.
Little Big Sheff
11-23-05, 07:02 PM
I think it is easier also because our needs actually match up.
Won't the Phillies want pitching?
Who have we to offer? I mean, a serious offer.
longtimeyankeefan
11-23-05, 07:10 PM
Right now, I would be on the phone asking Pat Gillick which of his FOUR centerfielders is available. With the exception of Eddy Chavez, I would be very happy with any of them.
People have already mentioned Michaels or Rowand - I would willing trade Pavano and pay half his remaining contract for either of these players. My guess, however, is that Rowand gets dealt before Michaels, who is slated to become the Phillies starting CFer.
However, I would ask about Shane Victorino as well. With the addition of Rowand, I think Victorino could be obtained for less than Rowand. Since they want inexpensive starting pitching, I would offer Small and a AAA pitching prospect for Victorino and see if they bite.
Bernie Inferno
11-23-05, 07:24 PM
It's looking like Thome is replacing Thomas as DH with the amount of money being rumored going back to the WS since they did give up a pretty good ballplayer in return to the Phillies. Another bit of information is that the Konerko's agent is also the agent for Thome which isn't a coincidence in my opinion. Actually, Konerko and Rowand have the same agent.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-23-05, 09:59 PM
I would trade Thome for EITHER Rowand or Contreras. I don't get this deal. Thome is declining drastically, and has a huge contract. Are the Phillies eating the cash?
You mind telling me how Thome is declining drastically considering he had a bad season last year due to injury but has been consistently healthy for the last 10 years putting up an OPS of 950+ every year?(except for 2000 .929 OPS)
PaidYoung
11-24-05, 01:12 AM
This coming from the guy who thinks Podsednik is the reason the whitesox won. Please, continue embarrassing yourself.
you're right he had no impact what so ever? podsednik..iguchi..dye....el duque and the emergence of jenks, cotts are the reason the white sox...they were the only new additions
podsednik changed that offense they never had a true lead off hitter and his speed allowed him to get to more balls than carlos lee so really just stfu until you learn baseball.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 01:13 AM
you're right he had no impact what so ever? podsednik..iguchi..dye....el duque and the emergence of jenks, cotts are the reason the white sox...they were the only new additions
podsednik changed that offense they never had a true lead off hitter and his speed allowed him to get to more balls than carlos lee so really just stfu until you learn baseball.
Yeah! STFU is right.
Yankees1962
11-24-05, 05:53 AM
Actually, Konerko and Rowand have the same agent.
My mistake, but I still think Thome will be the DH with Konerko at 1st.
ryanthe13th
11-24-05, 07:01 AM
Please god, stay away from Endy Chavez.
Johnny O
11-24-05, 08:23 AM
This is step one for Phillies. Something else is brewing. They wanted to get rid of Thome....for anyone. Phillies want pitching this offseason and getting rid of Thome frees up some payroll and now gives them two centerfielders.
Rowand or Michaels is going to be moved for pitching....for whom remains to be seen.
Michaels really isn't a CFer, he's more of a platoon (hits LHPs well)/reserve OFer who will be 30 in May.
you're right he had no impact what so ever? podsednik..iguchi..dye....el duque and the emergence of jenks, cotts are the reason the white sox...they were the only new additions
podsednik changed that offense they never had a true lead off hitter and his speed allowed him to get to more balls than carlos lee so really just stfu until you learn baseball.
I'm still pissed off that Podsednik got into the all-star game over Jeter, Hafner, and Matsui. He isn't that good.
Yanks Lifer
11-24-05, 09:32 AM
Right now, I would be on the phone asking Pat Gillick which of his FOUR centerfielders is available. With the exception of Eddy Chavez, I would be very happy with any of them.
People have already mentioned Michaels or Rowand - I would willing trade Pavano and pay half his remaining contract for either of these players. My guess, however, is that Rowand gets dealt before Michaels, who is slated to become the Phillies starting CFer.
However, I would ask about Shane Victorino as well. With the addition of Rowand, I think Victorino could be obtained for less than Rowand. Since they want inexpensive starting pitching, I would offer Small and a AAA pitching prospect for Victorino and see if they bite.
And if that has crossed our minds, we can be assured Cash is all over the possibility. Personally, I'd like them in the order of Rowand, Victorino, Michaels, Chavez (last resort).
I feel the Chisox made a horrendous deal here. Thome has back problems. He's had hints of back trouble since Cleveland (a major reason they didn't want to commit to the years he was asking for). He is horrendously overpaid. A fabulous power hitter when healthy, he is certainly going to worsen as he ages. Can he still be a productive hitter? Sure. But elbow and back issues over the course of a few seasons are worrisome.
The Phillies needed to rid themselves of his contract and his position to allow Howard to play. Seems like a risky panic move for Chicago.
Yanks Lifer
11-24-05, 09:42 AM
I feel the Chisox made a horrendous deal here. Thome has back problems. He's had hints of back trouble since Cleveland (a major reason they didn't want to commit to the years he was asking for). He is horrendously overpaid. A fabulous power hitter when healthy, he is certainly going to worsen as he ages. Can he still be a productive hitter? Sure. But elbow and back issues over the course of a few seasons are worrisome.
The Phillies needed to rid themselves of his contract and his position to allow Howard to play. Seems like a risky panic move for Chicago.
I agree, much better deal for the Phillies. Rids them of Thome's contract, gets them a legitimate CF and helps add to a big bag of cash to throw at Wagner should they choose to. I think Kenny Williams made this deal with the thought that Thome will be the full time DH helping him physically, and Konerko will be back.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 10:25 AM
Williams is dumb. I would have offered Philly a ham and cheese sandwich to eat half of the horrible contract of a player they don't want, and nobody else wants. Giving up a quality CFer? He's the worst GM in baseball. What a tool.
RobbiMan
11-24-05, 10:37 AM
Williams is dumb. I would have offered Philly a ham and cheese sandwich to eat half of the horrible contract of a player they don't want, and nobody else wants. Giving up a quality CFer? He's the worst GM in baseball. What a tool.
Whose team just won the World Series. Yeah, he is definitely a tool. Man, if I was a fan of the White Sox, I would want to get Kansas City's GM. He helps that team so much...definitely not a tool.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 10:55 AM
Whose team just won the World Series. Yeah, he is definitely a tool. Man, if I was a fan of the White Sox, I would want to get Kansas City's GM. He helps that team so much...definitely not a tool.
Of course. When a team wins the World Series that means that every move they make and every person in the organization is perfect. We should try to steal their janitorial staff. After all, they're the janitors for a WORLD SERIES CHAMPION!
The fact is, this is a bad move. Philly had an immovable contract, and the White Sox just took a huge chunk of it, and gave them a quality player. How can you justify that? Because they just won a World Series?
you're right he had no impact what so ever? podsednik..iguchi..dye....el duque and the emergence of jenks, cotts are the reason the white sox...they were the only new additions
podsednik changed that offense they never had a true lead off hitter and his speed allowed him to get to more balls than carlos lee so really just stfu until you learn baseball.
:lol: You're nutty.
PaidYoung
11-24-05, 11:08 AM
Of course. When a team wins the World Series that means that every move they make and every person in the organization is perfect. We should try to steal their janitorial staff. After all, they're the janitors for a WORLD SERIES CHAMPION!
The fact is, this is a bad move. Philly had an immovable contract, and the White Sox just took a huge chunk of it, and gave them a quality player. How can you justify that? Because they just won a World Series?
look my man the white sox made the deal because last year their biggest weakness was a left handed power bat and when healthy thome provides that and they only have him for 3 years it's not like a 5 year contract or something. 3 years @ about 7.7 mill a year = pretty good for a potential 40 hr guy. To be good you need to take risks you people probably bitched when the white sox traded carlos lee for podsednik. Also the whitesox have some of the best propsects in baseball in the outfield in Anderson, owens, young, sweeney...these guys have higher upside than rowand and all can play defense like rowand..along with good speed. Rowand last year hit .270 13 homers and drove in 70 rbi..with the addition of thome and if they re-sign konerko...the young outfielders they have to replace rowand won't even need to hit .250..just play solid defense. Most importantly the white sox still have 6 quality starters(McCarthy,Buerhle,Garland,Contreras,Garcia, El Duque) something no team can attest to having right now. This trade may not work out but it is by no means a dumb trade. What did you all expect the white sox to do with their outfield prospects/prospects in general...let them rot and waste their value or trade them like steinbrenner has forced us to do and make our farm system void of any talent?
C'mon were yank fans and new yorkers we know baseball...so lets act like it
PaidYoung
11-24-05, 11:10 AM
:lol: You're nutty.
:smokin: i honestly give up on you...you must think the white sox team won because of the bat of konerko or the amazing crede bat or just sheer dumb luck.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:11 AM
look my man the white sox made the deal because last year their biggest weakness was a left handed power bat and when healthy thome provides that and they only have him for 3 years it's not like a 5 year contract or something. 3 years @ about 7.7 mill a year = pretty good for a potential 40 hr guy. To be good you need to take risks you people probably bitched when the white sox traded carlos lee for podsednik. Also the whitesox have some of the best propsects in baseball in the outfield in Anderson, owens, young, sweeney...these guys have higher upside than rowand and all can play defense like rowand..along with good speed. Rowand last year hit .270 13 homers and drove in 70 rbi..with the addition of thome and if they re-sign konerko...the young outfielders they have to replace rowand won't even need to hit .250..just play solid defense. Most importantly the white sox still have 6 quality starters(McCarthy,Buerhle,Garland,Contreras,Garcia, El Duque) something no team can attest to having right now. This trade may not work out but it is by no means a dumb trade. What did you all expect the white sox to do with their outfield prospects/prospects in general...let them rot and waste their value or trade them like steinbrenner has forced us to do and make our farm system void of any talent?
C'mon were yank fans and new yorkers we know baseball...so lets act like it
You're my favorite poster ever.
:smokin: i honestly give up on you...you must think the white sox team won because of the bat of konerko or the amazing crede bat or just sheer dumb luck.
Great SP and sheer dumb luck.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:12 AM
:smokin: i honestly give up on you...you must think the white sox team won because of the bat of konerko or the amazing crede bat or just sheer dumb luck.
You know it. It was definitely the speedtasticness of Scott "Superman" Podsednik.
RobbiMan
11-24-05, 11:20 AM
Of course. When a team wins the World Series that means that every move they make and every person in the organization is perfect. We should try to steal their janitorial staff. After all, they're the janitors for a WORLD SERIES CHAMPION!
The fact is, this is a bad move. Philly had an immovable contract, and the White Sox just took a huge chunk of it, and gave them a quality player. How can you justify that? Because they just won a World Series?
I don't think it is prudent to say that it is a "fact" that this is a bad move. Sure, it looks like a bad move, but it won't factually become a bad move until Thome sucks during the season. On the other hand, Thome might benefit from playing in a less hostile environment and he can recover from his health woes.
I am not endorsing the proposition that a World Series victory equals front office genious. However, for as much as Ken Williams was mocked for picking up Jose Contreras, Jermaine Dye, trading Lee for Podsednik, acquiring Hermanson, etc.. it sure worked out pretty damn good, didn't it? Especially when you look at the White Sox performance in 2004. A poster earlier in this thread stated his/her frustration with flippant comments like, "he is dumb" or "he is a tool." I agree wholeheartedly with that poster. If someone wants to criticize a GM or a player, provide a factual basis for the assertion, otherwise it is just a waste of bandwidth.
Edit: Could it also be that you think the trade is dumb because Rowand, a player coveted by many on this board, did not end up with the Yankees?
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:25 AM
I don't think it is prudent to say that it is a "fact" that this is a bad move. Sure, it looks like a bad move, but it won't factually become a bad move until Thome sucks during the season. On the other hand, Thome might benefit from playing in a less hostile environment and he can recover from his health woes.
It is a bad move today because they gave up a lot more value than they got back. They gave up a quality player in a trade where the other team had no leverage. Thats why its a bad move. The point is, they could have gotten Thome for a lot less.
Edit: Could it also be that you think the trade is dumb because Rowand, a player coveted by many on this board, did not end up with the Yankees?
Ooh, you've really exposed me. Yes, I think Rowand is a good player. So, I think a deal where he is traded for a guy whose team is DESPERATE to move him is a bad deal. Why give up value for a guy that a team is dying to trade?
Little Big Sheff
11-24-05, 11:29 AM
:smokin: i honestly give up on you...you must think the white sox team won because of the bat of konerko or the amazing crede bat or just sheer dumb luck.
Garland, a 105 ERA+ pitcher, posts a 127 season.
Buehrle, a 128 ERA+ pitcher, posts a 143 season.
Contreras, a 106 ERA+ pitcher, posts a 123 season.
The ChiSox didn't win the World Series by chance, I am not saying that, but for them to win it all, a lot of things had to go right and they went right, like a pitcher who posted a 5.12 ERA for the season pitching two SHO innings with the bases loaded against arguably the most impressive offense in the American League.
When three of your main pitchers pitch more than 200IP and beat their career averages by roughly 20%, that doesn't make your GM a genius. Picking up a contract like Thome, while giving back a quality CF and two prospects, on the other hand, makes him look like an idiot.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:32 AM
Garland, a 105 ERA+ pitcher, posts a 127 season.
Buehrle, a 128 ERA+ pitcher, posts a 143 season.
Contreras, a 106 ERA+ pitcher, posts a 123 season.
The ChiSox didn't win the World Series by chance, I am not saying that, but for them to win it all, a lot of things had to go right and they went right, like a pitcher who posted a 5.12 ERA for the season pitching two SHO innings with the bases loaded against arguably the most impressive offense in the American League.
When three of your main pitchers pitch more than 200IP and beat their career averages by roughly 20%, that doesn't make your GM a genius. Picking up a contract like Thome, while giving back a quality CF and two prospects, on the other hand, makes him look like an idiot.
They did a feature on... some website (prospectus maybe?) where they ranked the "luckiest" teams of all time. It was based on things like really good out of context years, players outperforming their peripherals, and the W/L record being much better than the Runs Scored/Allowed ratio would indicate. The 2001 Mariners came out number 1, but I wonder where these White Sox would rank.
RobbiMan
11-24-05, 11:32 AM
It is a bad move today because they gave up a lot more value than they got back. They gave up a quality player in a trade where the other team had no leverage. Thats why its a bad move. The point is, they could have gotten Thome for a lot less.
How do you know this? Getting Philly to pay half his salary is a pretty big deal. You can't say that Philly fleeced the White Sox until after the 2006 season. Thome has been very valuable except for last season. He can be valuable again. He isn't dead. Regarding the value Chicago gave up; prospects are not sure things. This discussion has been had ad nauseum. Sure they may turn out to be the next Roger Clemens or they may turn out to be the next Paxton Crawford...teams just don't know. It's a game of risk management/allocation. Unless you have a flying DeLorean that has allowed you to see all of next season, you should probably wait before you write this deal off.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:39 AM
How do you know this? Getting Philly to pay half his salary is a pretty big deal. You can't say that Philly fleeced the White Sox until after the 2006 season. Thome has been very valuable except for last season. He can be valuable again. He isn't dead. Regarding the value Chicago gave up; prospects are not sure things. This discussion has been had ad nauseum. Sure they may turn out to be the next Roger Clemens or they may turn out to be the next Paxton Crawford...teams just don't know. It's a game of risk management/allocation. Unless you have a flying DeLorean that has allowed you to see all of next season, you should probably wait before you write this deal off.
You're not listening. Or... reading... properly. Or something.
The reason it is a bad move is because Thome could have been acquired, at a highly discounted price, for almost no value, because the Phillies were desperate to shed that money when they have Ryan Howard to play first base. So what the White Sox did is essentially give away Rowand.
If the Twins traded Johan Santana for Daniel Cabrera, it would be a HORRIBLE deal. But maybe Santana gets in a car accident and wrecks his arm, and Cabrera become a top 30 pitcher. It worked out in the Twins favor. But it was still a bad deal.
RobbiMan
11-24-05, 02:23 PM
You're not listening. Or... reading... properly. Or something.
The reason it is a bad move is because Thome could have been acquired, at a highly discounted price, for almost no value, because the Phillies were desperate to shed that money when they have Ryan Howard to play first base.
Who's the one not reading properly? HOW DO YOU KNOW that Thome could have been acquired for next to no value? HOW DO YOU KNOW this? You keep asserting it but it appears to be blind speculation. If he could have been had for nothing, then there would have been far more interest.
Saxmania
11-24-05, 02:32 PM
podsednik changed that offense
I agree. A 86 OPS+ from LF does have a way of changing an offense.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
PaidYoung
11-24-05, 02:51 PM
I agree. A 86 OPS+ from LF does have a way of changing an offense.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
i have no idea is that a good stat or a bad one but i do know this look at the white sox and the marlins ...the last two teams not named the red sox to win...they did it without all this statistical B.S. that moneyball has come up with...and please tell me how man world series champs has this moneyball way of thinking produced? One..thank you. The braves have had much more success in terms of playoffs and winning season with their philosophy than moneyball so it's not the end all. It was clear to see all year long that podsednik changed that team and had a positive impact, even whitesox players said so. When the whitesox were in their slump..podesednik was hurt and came back and was clearly not 100%. When he got healthy...well we saw him step up against the red sox and astros. Podsednik also played great defense his speed caught the balls that carlos lee could not..podsednik didnt have a great arm but covered left field like a hawk but watch u guys say no..and once again tell me white sox would have won if they had jason michaels man LF.
Ivoted4Kodos
11-24-05, 05:01 PM
and once again tell me white sox would have won if they had jason michaels man LF.
Contreras, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland
I think they could have done it.
Mystic Merlyn
11-24-05, 05:09 PM
i have no idea is that a good stat or a bad one but i do know this look at the white sox and the marlins ...the last two teams not named the red sox to win...they did it without all this statistical B.S. that moneyball has come up with...and please tell me how man world series champs has this moneyball way of thinking produced? One..thank you. The braves have had much more success in terms of playoffs and winning season with their philosophy than moneyball so it's not the end all. It was clear to see all year long that podsednik changed that team and had a positive impact, even whitesox players said so. When the whitesox were in their slump..podesednik was hurt and came back and was clearly not 100%. When he got healthy...well we saw him step up against the red sox and astros. Podsednik also played great defense his speed caught the balls that carlos lee could not..podsednik didnt have a great arm but covered left field like a hawk but watch u guys say no..and once again tell me white sox would have won if they had jason michaels man LF.
100 OPS+ is average.
Rowand stinks.
Saxmania
11-24-05, 05:10 PM
o..and once again tell me white sox would have won if they had jason michaels man LF.
The White Sox would have won if they had Jason Michaels man LF.
Man, that was easy. Seriously, Podsednik only managed to score 80 runs from the leadoff spot for the World Series champs, so how good a 'run manufacturer' is he? 68th in the majors in runs scored, behind such luminaries as Coco Crisp, Randy Winn, and Jeromy Burnitz. That's actually not very impressive, and you can tell he didn't make the offense all that good, because the White Sox weren't a particularly good offensive team. Look it up - 9th out of 14 in the AL in runs scored. Wow, Podsednik was amazing.
Just because commentators keep saying that he's great doesn't make it true. An OPS+ below 100 means that he was a below-average hitter compared to the rest of the league, and he did it all from one of the least demanding defensive positions on the field. Below-average offense from an easy defensive position - surely Podsednik must be the answer to the ChiSox' problems.
'All that stat BS' might bother you, but it would bother me far more to commentate in ignorance of the actual facts. Try looking at those pesky facts before forming an opinion.
Go on! It won't hurt.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Saxmania
11-24-05, 05:20 PM
9th (of 14) in the AL in hitting, and 1st in pitching. Clearly, the White Sox are indebted to Podsednik, and not their pitchers.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Little Big Sheff
11-24-05, 05:38 PM
and please tell me how man world series champs has this moneyball way of thinking produced? One..thank you.
The 96-00 Yankees were big time Moneyball teams.
Clemens831
11-24-05, 05:40 PM
Whose team just won the World Series. Yeah, he is definitely a tool. Man, if I was a fan of the White Sox, I would want to get Kansas City's GM. He helps that team so much...definitely not a tool.
To be fair, Allan Baird's hands are tied by David Glass' unwillingness to spend ANY money on the Royals. Really, its sad.
YankeePride1967
11-24-05, 05:52 PM
i have no idea is that a good stat or a bad one but i do know this look at the white sox and the marlins ...the last two teams not named the red sox to win...they did it without all this statistical B.S. that moneyball has come up with...and please tell me how man world series champs has this moneyball way of thinking produced? One..thank you. The braves have had much more success in terms of playoffs and winning season with their philosophy than moneyball so it's not the end all. It was clear to see all year long that podsednik changed that team and had a positive impact, even whitesox players said so. When the whitesox were in their slump..podesednik was hurt and came back and was clearly not 100%. When he got healthy...well we saw him step up against the red sox and astros. Podsednik also played great defense his speed caught the balls that carlos lee could not..podsednik didnt have a great arm but covered left field like a hawk but watch u guys say no..and once again tell me white sox would have won if they had jason michaels man LF.
An OPS+ of 100 is considered average. Over it is good, below it is bad so an OPS+ of 86 is quite bad.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 05:53 PM
Who's the one not reading properly? HOW DO YOU KNOW that Thome could have been acquired for next to no value? HOW DO YOU KNOW this? You keep asserting it but it appears to be blind speculation. If he could have been had for nothing, then there would have been far more interest.
There wouldn't have, because nobody wanted him. Even at a discount. Its still a bad contract, even with Philly picking up a chunk.
The fact is, every paper in the country was reporting that Philly wanted to dump Thome, and nobody thought it could happen. Not only did they dump him, but they got a quality CFer in return. That is a poor trade.
Little Big Sheff
11-24-05, 06:07 PM
An OPS+ of 100 is considered average. Over it is good, below it is bad so an OPS+ of 86 is quite bad.
To help people with this difficult concept that Podsednik is NOT a good hitter, Bernie Williams was a 81 this year.
Little Big Sheff
11-24-05, 06:10 PM
There wouldn't have, because nobody wanted him. Even at a discount. Its still a bad contract, even with Philly picking up a chunk.
The fact is, every paper in the country was reporting that Philly wanted to dump Thome, and nobody thought it could happen. Not only did they dump him, but they got a quality CFer in return. That is a poor trade.
To help people with this difficult concept that this is a bad trade, imagine if we had traded Kevin Brown (+cash) at the beginning of the season for say, Mark Kotsay and two A's prospects.
PaidYoung
11-24-05, 06:19 PM
The White Sox would have won if they had Jason Michaels man LF.
Man, that was easy. Seriously, Podsednik only managed to score 80 runs from the leadoff spot for the World Series champs, so how good a 'run manufacturer' is he? 68th in the majors in runs scored, behind such luminaries as Coco Crisp, Randy Winn, and Jeromy Burnitz. That's actually not very impressive, and you can tell he didn't make the offense all that good, because the White Sox weren't a particularly good offensive team. Look it up - 9th out of 14 in the AL in runs scored. Wow, Podsednik was amazing.
Just because commentators keep saying that he's great doesn't make it true. An OPS+ below 100 means that he was a below-average hitter compared to the rest of the league, and he did it all from one of the least demanding defensive positions on the field. Below-average offense from an easy defensive position - surely Podsednik must be the answer to the ChiSox' problems.
'All that stat BS' might bother you, but it would bother me far more to commentate in ignorance of the actual facts. Try looking at those pesky facts before forming an opinion.
Go on! It won't hurt.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
i recently moved to chicago and i saw the impact firsthand.. i want you to go to http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/index.php? and tell they would have won with jason michaels in lf and not podsednik...seriously the b.s. faith we put in stats kill me.
i recently moved to chicago and i saw the impact firsthand.. i want you to go to http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/index.php ("http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/index.php")? and tell they would have won with jason michaels in lf and not podsednik...seriously the b.s. faith we put in stats kill me.
The truth hurts, I know.
YankeePride1967
11-24-05, 06:24 PM
stats are evil, we need speedsters with worse stats, can't win without them. Need worse players.
stats are evil, we need speedsters with worse stats, can't win without them. Need worse players.
Yep, speed+guts=wins. You know it.
YankeePride1967
11-24-05, 06:28 PM
Yep, speed+guts=wins. You know it.
It is much better to steal 60 out 120 attempts than to steal 20 out of 22 attempts. 60 is more than 20. We need speed. And clutchness too.
BronxBaumer
11-24-05, 06:28 PM
i recently moved to chicago and i saw the impact firsthand.. i want you to go to http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/index.php? and tell they would have won with jason michaels in lf and not podsednik...seriously the b.s. faith we put in stats kill me.
Yeah man. I hate stats. I wish we had Tony Womack playing full time! That would be great...that man is a proven winner, with all those stolen bases and all those hard hits right to the pitchers mound and stuff. You know what I say man?
BronxBaumer
11-24-05, 06:29 PM
The Yanks need more speed...we need people to bunt more too...Man...bunts and small ball and stuff...woah man, we need Pierre because he can run so much man...
It is much better to steal 60 out 120 attempts than to steal 20 out of 22 attempts. 60 is more than 20. We need speed. And clutchness too.
Hello? Speed=clutchness, except for big papi, he's a special case. His heart=his clutchness.
BronxBaumer
11-24-05, 06:34 PM
Hello? Speed=clutchness, except for big papi, he's a special case. His heart=his clutchness.
Think we can trade Matsui for Podsednik?
Ivoted4Kodos
11-24-05, 06:38 PM
i recently moved to chicago and i saw the impact firsthand.. i want you to go to http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/index.php? and tell they would have won with jason michaels in lf and not podsednik...seriously the b.s. faith we put in stats kill me.
So you honestly believe it was more due to Podsednik than the pitching?
PaidYoung
11-24-05, 06:52 PM
So you honestly believe it was more due to Podsednik than the pitching?
obviously it was the pitching...but i tell you this take podsednik off of that team...and the way he set the top of the line up and matched ozzie's aggressive...smart philosophy...they would not win.
PaidYoung
11-24-05, 06:53 PM
The truth hurts, I know.
ok...tell white sox fans podsednik was nothing...go on that board and tell them please...and watch u get laughed the f outta here.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 06:54 PM
I heard that stats can turn you gay.
YankeePride1967
11-24-05, 06:59 PM
I heard that stats can turn you gay.
stats are pure evil, just because you have 20 home runs, doesn't mean you hit 20 home runs. All you need is one speedster and you will win everything. You don't need anything else.
Ivoted4Kodos
11-24-05, 07:26 PM
obviously it was the pitching...but i tell you this take podsednik off of that team...and the way he set the top of the line up and matched ozzie's aggressive...smart philosophy...they would not win.
They could have easily won without Podsednik. Chicago didn't win many games because of his ability to run fast.
27IsNext
11-24-05, 07:35 PM
I heard that stats can turn you gay.
Sincerely,
WIN MEATHOD.
AMYanks
11-24-05, 08:32 PM
Podsednik>Pujols
He's faster, so DUH!
Johnny O
11-24-05, 09:00 PM
obviously it was the pitching...but i tell you this take podsednik off of that team...and the way he set the top of the line up and matched ozzie's aggressive...smart philosophy...they would not win.
I know I'm late on this debate, and I don't want to add to the obvious acrimony, but the reality is Podsednik was one of the worst LFers in baseball in 2005. Almost anyone, including many minor leaguers, could have played LF for the White Sox and they still would have won. And I do believe that their championship was not a fluke, they had great pitching depth - far beyond any other playoff team, played excellent defense & hit enough HRs to offset the weak OBP.
As far as trading Rowand, I would have dealt Podsednik instead, but Rowand is still very replaceable. Anderson should match his '05 performance with little problem. Assuming Thome is healthy and factoring in his inevitable decline, 3 yrs @ $21M is a pretty good deal (albeit risky). Only time will tell ...
Johnny O
11-24-05, 09:06 PM
I'd like to add though that given the choice of Thomas for 1 yr - $10M and Thome for 3 yrs - $21M, I would have kept The Big Hurt & Rowand. You could still deal Rowand for an asset or two, and you save $11M.
Saxmania
11-25-05, 02:03 AM
ok...tell white sox fans podsednik was nothing...go on that board and tell them please...and watch u get laughed the f outta here.
'Oh yeah? I'm wrong? Well there are lots of other people who are wrong! Go troll on their message board and see what happens! Facts don't matter - it's what people say that's important, even though they're all fans of the team in question and have just won a World Series.'
Swift. Seriously, man, there's a difference between objective and subjective thought. Fanboyism is fun, but if you're trying to actually discuss baseball objectively, it's next to useless. Can you provide us with any facts that suggest Podsednik was a good LF, or is it just a matter of reciting back to us what other people think?
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
NYDCYankee
11-25-05, 02:33 AM
I'd like to add though that given the choice of Thomas for 1 yr - $10M and Thome for 3 yrs - $21M, I would have kept The Big Hurt & Rowand. You could still deal Rowand for an asset or two, and you save $11M.
I know I get blasted whenever I say this but I think the Yankees should sign Thomas for cheap to DH. He could put up HUGE numbers.
conkermaniac
11-25-05, 05:08 AM
I know I get blasted whenever I say this but I think the Yankees should sign Thomas for cheap to DH. He could put up HUGE numbers.
But the Yankees don't really need a full-time DH. I think it would be better if we got a good defensive 1B and made Giambi the full time DH (and giving Sheff the occasional half-day off).
conkermaniac
11-25-05, 05:16 AM
I know I'm late on this debate, and I don't want to add to the obvious acrimony, but the reality is Podsednik was one of the worst LFers in baseball in 2005. Almost anyone, including many minor leaguers, could have played LF for the White Sox and they still would have won.
I agree that Podsednik is overrated, but how do you figure that he was one of the "worst LFers in baseball in 2005"? I'd move Matsui to CF and take Podsednik's .290/.351 over the production we got from Bernie+Womack+Bubba. Sportsline ranks him 19th of 30 outfielders.
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/playerrankings/regularseason/LF
Saxmania
11-25-05, 06:33 AM
I agree that Podsednik is overrated, but how do you figure that he was one of the "worst LFers in baseball in 2005"? I'd move Matsui to CF and take Podsednik's .290/.351 over the production we got from Bernie+Womack+Bubba. Sportsline ranks him 19th of 30 outfielders.
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/playerrankings/regularseason/LF
I don't know how CBS arrives at their ratings, but if you look at .OPS, out of the 21 players that qualify at LF on ESPN.com, Podsednik was . . . 21st. Once you strip out platoon players, he really was pretty much the bottom of the barrel.
Now, his steals add some value back, but he only stole bases at a 72% success rate, which is (I believe) just over the break-even point. Outs are worth more than bases, so being caught stealing is bad more than stealing a base is good. Even including those steals, you're not going to move Podsednik up more than 2 or 3 spots on the list.
His defense at LF was pretty good, so he gets some more credit there, but overall Podsednik was certainly in the bottom third of regular MLB left-fielders, and perhaps as low as the bottom fifth. That's bad. Of course, if we keep saying that Podsednik was good, as some would have us do, maybe we'll forget those annoying facts that show otherwise.
Sorry, I just find it funny that the same poster who's railing at fellow forumers for using statistics and looking up information earlier posted that we should "do our research" and act like knowledgable fans. Apparently that research consists of regurgitating what other fans think.
Oh, and telling them to "stfu". "Statistics Trouble Forumer's Understanding"? Clearly.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
First, re Podsednik - he's the best lead-off hitter we've had since Tim Raines. His .350 OBP is averageish for that position, but a big improvement for us. Lead off hitters are impossible to find. You can't risk a rookie there. Maybe he shouldn't have been on the All Star team - but it's just desserts as Torre left off numerous deserving Sox players over the years, and put on several undeserving Yankees over the years.
The Sox paid a high price player wise. But they get Thome for $6.5 million a year, a price well below market if he returns to form. (The Sox have a budget). In dealing Rowand, the Sox dealt from strength - they have players in the minors who can provide what Rowand provided defensively, without much risk.
Rowand's a solid player; he plays a deep CF and covers a lot of ground back there (not as adept at snaring bloops). When did he become so well-regarded? Frankly, after the Yankee Stadium series - the Yankees raved about him, and then everyone began to take notice. Well, now the cv really overrates him. He declined offensively in 2005. He is one of the better CFs in MLB; but it's also true that, overall, CF is a weak position in MLB - a few really good ones and that's it.
The Sox are on a budget. They replaced (guessing) $13 mill Konerko and $5 mill Rowand with $6.5 Mill Thome and $.5 mill Anderson. That's a net gain of $11 Mill. Couple that with a budget increase, and the Sox have $15-$20 mill more to spend to improve the club.
SINCE77 2
11-25-05, 12:02 PM
First, re Podsednik - he's the best lead-off hitter we've had since Tim Raines. His .350 OBP is averageish for that position, but a big improvement for us. Lead off hitters are impossible to find. You can't risk a rookie there. Maybe he shouldn't have been on the All Star team - but it's just desserts as Torre left off numerous deserving Sox players over the years, and put on several undeserving Yankees over the years.
The Sox paid a high price player wise. But they get Thome for $6.5 million a year, a price well below market if he returns to form. (The Sox have a budget). In dealing Rowand, the Sox dealt from strength - they have players in the minors who can provide what Rowand provided defensively, without much risk.
Rowand's a solid player; he plays a deep CF and covers a lot of ground back there (not as adept at snaring bloops). When did he become so well-regarded? Frankly, after the Yankee Stadium series - the Yankees raved about him, and then everyone began to take notice. Well, now the cv really overrates him. He declined offensively in 2005. He is one of the better CFs in MLB; but it's also true that, overall, CF is a weak position in MLB - a few really good ones and that's it.
The Sox are on a budget. They replaced (guessing) $13 mill Konerko and $5 mill Rowand with $6.5 Mill Thome and $.5 mill Anderson. That's a net gain of $11 Mill. Couple that with a budget increase, and the Sox have $15-$20 mill more to spend to improve the club.
Well put. Posednik was a part of a larger change on the WS. Getting rid of Lee, letting Magglio walk, and using Thomas in a limited role changed their offensive modus operandi. They went from a team always waiting for the three run dinger to a team that forced the issue on the basepaths and kept the opposing offense stagnant with their improved defense. Sometimes less is more.
I Love Wang
11-25-05, 12:30 PM
Well put. Posednik was a part of a larger change on the WS. Getting rid of Lee, letting Magglio walk, and using Thomas in a limited role changed their offensive modus operandi. They went from a team always waiting for the three run dinger to a team that forced the issue on the basepaths and kept the opposing offense stagnant with their improved defense. Sometimes less is more.
But, usually, less is less. The changes to the White Sox offense had the fantastic effect of decreasing the effectiveness of their offense from 865 runs to 741 runs. The 2004 White Sox offense was significantly superior to the 2005 version. However, the 2005 White Sox pitching staff gave up 645 runs, compared to 831 runs by the 2004 White Sox pitching staff. The improvement of Garland, Buerhle, and Politte the turnaround of Contreras, and the development of Jenks, and Cotts were far more instrumental in the improvement of the White Sox. The defense helped, for sure, but Podsednik's offensive performance, given his position, was a net negative over the course of the year.
By the way, they still hit 200 home runs this year.
And Ray Durham was a much better leadoff hitter than Podsednik.
Johnny O
11-25-05, 12:38 PM
Well put. Posednik was a part of a larger change on the WS. Getting rid of Lee, letting Magglio walk, and using Thomas in a limited role changed their offensive modus operandi. They went from a team always waiting for the three run dinger to a team that forced the issue on the basepaths and kept the opposing offense stagnant with their improved defense. Sometimes less is more.
Huh? The White Sox offense worked exactly the opposite, they relied heavily on hitting the 3-run HR, and hitting 200 HRs, good for 4th in the AL. The HRs helped offset the low OBP of .322 and the low 67% stolen base rate. They cost themselves more runs by caught stealing than they generated by stealing bases. If they had a league average LFer instead of Podsednik, they would have scored more runs.
I Love Wang
11-25-05, 12:39 PM
Huh? The White Sox offense worked exactly the opposite, they relied heavily on hitting the 3-run HR, and hitting 200 HRs, good for 4th in the AL. The HRs helped offset the low OBP of .322 and the low 67% stolen base rate. They cost themselves more runs by caught stealing than they generated by stealing bases. If they had a league average LFer instead of Podsednik, they would have scored more runs.
You clearly have miscalculated. Podsednik's Speedalaciousnesstasticnessosity completely offsets the fact that he's a mediocre player.
Podsednik's OBP was higher than his slugging pctg this year. If he got on base at a .400 or so clip, fine. But he was mediocre, at best, at getting on base. Combined with 0 power, he was not a great player. He also stole bases right around the break even point for production- so his speed, while disruptive at times, was not as large an asset as it would seem.
He's a mid-level player, probably leaning towards below average. I would want no part of Scott Podsednik- heck, if Bubba Crosby got 500 ab's I bet his effectiveness would likely approach Podsednik's.
I wonder where PaidYoung went.
AMYanks
11-25-05, 02:04 PM
I wonder where PaidYoung went.
http://www.scottpodsednikisgod.com
http://www.scottpodsednikisgod.com ("http://www.scottpodsednikisgod.com")
I thought he went to www.scottpodsednikisgodstfu.com
AMYanks
11-25-05, 02:20 PM
I thought he went to www.scottpodsednikisgodstfu.com (http://www.scottpodsednikisgodstfu.com)
I stand corrected. Never the less, his infatuation with speed is quite admirable.
Little Big Sheff
11-25-05, 11:26 PM
I wonder where PaidYoung went.
And Since77 ?
please tell me how man world series champs has this moneyball way of thinking produced? One..thank you.
Five world series since 1996, is, I think the answer that you're looking for. Before the book, before the Red Sox, before all of that, the Yankees were busy acquiring guys for the offense who were high OPS guys. That's the single most important stat for moneyballer offense. And that's what the four WS champion Yankee teams were built around, offensively.
Five world series since 1996, is, I think the answer that you're looking for. Before the book, before the Red Sox, before all of that, the Yankees were busy acquiring guys for the offense who were high OPS guys. That's the single most important stat for moneyballer offense. And that's what the four WS champion Yankee teams were built around, offensively.
You mean we didn't with smallball? It wasn't Knoblauch's speed that won us those rings?
YankeePride1967
11-26-05, 06:06 PM
You mean we didn't with smallball? It wasn't Knoblauch's speed that won us those rings?
come on, weren't you watching? Clearly we would have won no titles without the clutch contributions of Mariano Duncan, Rey Sanchez and Ricky Ledee.
come on, weren't you watching? Clearly we would have won no titles without the clutch contributions of Mariano Duncan, Rey Sanchez and Ricky Ledee.
My bad, I should've known.
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