View Full Version : How can the Yanks benefit from the Marlins firesale?
The pending Beckett-Blalock deal and the constant rumors about Juan Pierre, Mike Lowell and Carlos Delgado make it fairly obvious that the Marlins are looking to shed all of their expensive contracts. My question is how do the Yankees benefit from this?
I have two ideas:
I think we should trade for Ron Villone. He was great against lefties for 2 seasons in Seattle and got rocked for a 6 ERA in Florida because they were using him for 4-5 outs at a time. They owe him $2 million for next year and won't be too anxious about paying him considering what a mess he was down the stretch.
Another option I would like to explore is acquiring Paul Lo Duca. He provides solid defense and seems to work very well with a variety of pitchers. I know Jorge isn't going anywhere but he might benefit from only catching about 100 games and DHing for 15 more. Lo Duca could catch about 60 games and give us some depth with a couple starts at first base, a position he has started about 50 games at since 2001. The Marlins have Josh Willingham waiting in the wings and would probably kick in some of the $13 million Lo Duca is owed over the next two seasons just to help him out the door.
I could just as easily see the Yankees pursue Pierre and Delgado but I strongly think that the two guys I mentioned could be very useful for us in 2006.
[QUOTE=Mark19]The pending Beckett-Blalock deal and the constant rumors about Juan Pierre, Mike Lowell and Carlos Delgado make it fairly obvious that the Marlins are looking to shed all of their expensive contracts. My question is how do the Yankees benefit from this?
I have two ideas:
I think we should trade for Ron Villone. He was great against lefties for 2 seasons in Seattle and got rocked for a 6 ERA in Florida because they were using him for 4-5 outs at a time. They owe him $2 million for next year and won't be too anxious about paying him considering what a mess he was down the stretch.
Another option I would like to explore is acquiring Paul Lo Duca. He provides solid defense and seems to work very well with a variety of pitchers. I know Jorge isn't going anywhere but he might benefit from only catching about 100 games and DHing for 15 more. Lo Duca could catch about 60 games and give us some depth with a couple starts at first base, a position he has started about 50 games at since 2001. The Marlins have Josh Willingham waiting in the wings and would probably kick in some of the $13 million Lo Duca is owed over the next two seasons just to help him out the door.
QUOTE]
Villone is something I think the Yankees will look into. Lo Duca makes too much money to be the backup. We can't have 20 Million dollars going towards catcher.
Villone is something I think the Yankees will look into. Lo Duca makes too much money to be the backup. We can't have 20 Million dollars going towards catcher.
I want Lo Duca to be our starting catcher, not the backup. Then we can DH Posada and don't need to pay him $12M in 2007.
I want Lo Duca to be our starting catcher, not the backup. Then we can DH Posada and don't need to pay him $12M in 2007.
That won't happen especially with Torre as the manager. His loyalty is with Posada and he will make sure that Posada gets those 60 starts to get that 12M option for 2007.
Boricua21
11-20-05, 11:22 AM
The Yanks could gain huge leverage in a 3-way or whatever way to get players we need. Aaron Rowand is our guy. I would love Ichiro as well, so we could pull strings with the Marlins to get him. We need to definitely keep our ear to the street with the Marlins, because if Boston gets Becket or Delgado...ouch.
YankeeStripes
11-20-05, 12:06 PM
i want beckett.
Boricua21
11-20-05, 12:18 PM
i want beckett.
He's just so injury prone. In 2003, I did too. But now....I don't know.
He's just so injury prone. In 2003, I did too. But now....I don't know.
If the Yankees have the chance to get him, you get him as long as we are not giving up the whole farm. The Yankees don't have anyone in their system as good as Beckett. Maybe Hughes comes the closest but he's only at A ball and his stuff isn't as good as Beckett's. Beckett is 25, has great stuff, and so far he has had a solid major league career. He's also gradually building up the innings to be a 200 inning pitcher. He pitched about 180 in 2005.
Did the Marlins really ask for both Wang and Cano for Pierre?
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-20-05, 12:31 PM
once he leaves florida Beckett will be a beast. Good thing is the Rangers are likely to land him which means Boston wont get their dirty hands on him(they were interested)
once he leaves florida Beckett will be a beast. Good thing is the Rangers are likely to land him which means Boston wont get their dirty hands on him(they were interested)
I think he'll have a big 2006 season. He now has about 5 years experience to go along with his great stuff. I can see him winning about 18 games, 200 k's, and 200 innings in 2006.
once he leaves florida Beckett will be a beast. Good thing is the Rangers are likely to land him which means Boston wont get their dirty hands on him(they were interested)
Going to from a pitchers park to an extreme hitters park with worse defense behind him will make him a "beast"?
flymick24
11-20-05, 12:51 PM
Going to from a pitchers park to an extreme hitters park with worse defense behind him will make him a "beast"?
exactly.
he may have a lot of K's, but he's also a fly ball pitcher, which doesn't bode very well for him at Comerica.
exactly.
he may have a lot of K's, but he's also a fly ball pitcher, which doesn't bode very well for him at Comerica.
Comerica?? Who says he is going to Comerica?
exactly.
he may have a lot of K's, but he's also a fly ball pitcher, which doesn't bode very well for him at Comerica.
Comerica? Isn't he going to the Rangers?
27IsNext
11-20-05, 01:38 PM
How do we benefit? By avoiding Juan Pierre like the plague.
CaptainThurman
11-20-05, 01:45 PM
Beckett is from the Houston area....how about a 3-way deal with the Yankees getting Willy Taveras to lead off and play center?
Beckett is from the Houston area....how about a 3-way deal with the Yankees getting Willy Taveras to lead off and play center?
I would rather get Beckett than Taveras if it was possible.
flymick24
11-20-05, 01:56 PM
Comerica? Isn't he going to the Rangers?
sorry, i meant ameriquest
Beckett is from the Houston area....how about a 3-way deal with the Yankees getting Willy Taveras to lead off and play center?
You mean replace Jeter's 389 OBP with Taveras' 325 OBP in the leadoff spot?
sorry, i meant ameriquest
Ahh, don't worry I have problems with all these new ballparks too.
JeterRodriguezSheff
11-20-05, 02:13 PM
btw i said he would be a beast once out of florida because the only thing holding him back have been his blister problem and with lower humidity he SHOULD be healthy and it is of my opinion that when healthy he is one of the top pitchers in the game.
btw i said he would be a beast once out of florida because the only thing holding him back have been his blister problem and with lower humidity he SHOULD be healthy and it is of my opinion that when healthy he is one of the top pitchers in the game.
Texas isn't humid?
Yankyfan
11-20-05, 02:26 PM
Do they still Have Mota?
yanksphan
11-20-05, 02:47 PM
Do they still Have Mota?
Yup. They offered Mota and DeLuca to the Rockies for Brian Fuentes. :thatsodd:
NewEraYanks2527
11-20-05, 03:10 PM
Texas isn't humid?
I think Texas is dry heat, like Arizona.
CaptainThurman
11-20-05, 04:30 PM
I think Texas is dry heat, like Arizona.
No way. Texas is the muggiest spot on this planet, with mosquitos the size of small aircraft.
Yankees1962
11-20-05, 04:33 PM
I think Texas is dry heat, like Arizona.
I take it you guys haven't been to Texas. It's very humid, particularly Houston and Dallas can be bad at times too.
There's a reason that Lo Duca got moved out of LA in the first place. If folks think that Posada wears down, they've never seen Lo Duca play in August and September. His post ASB OPSs since 2002: .609, .575, .685, and .713.
NewEraYanks2527
11-20-05, 05:16 PM
No way. Texas is the muggiest spot on this planet, with mosquitos the size of small aircraft.
Oh, well I never been and unless the Yanks were playing the Rangers or Astros in the playoffs I'd have no reason to go.
ShaneTravis
11-20-05, 05:22 PM
I could just as easily see the Yankees pursue Pierre and Delgado but I strongly think that the two guys I mentioned could be very useful for us in 2006.
Pierre? I don't see that happening. Costs too much and I think the Yanks are down on him.
Delgado has 3 years at 16 mill each. What the heck---pick him up for middle prospects bat him @ DH, live with Bubba in Center......Yanks still score more runs than any team in the ML's.
Jeter
Arod
Sheff
Carlos
Jason
Matsui
Cano
Jorge
Bubba
rightfielder21
11-20-05, 06:09 PM
I was in Houston this past July... The humidity is insane...
ryanthe13th
11-20-05, 06:25 PM
You mean replace Jeter's 389 OBP with Taveras' 325 OBP in the leadoff spot?
Taveras is a rookie and is going to develope into a good CF if he keeps going like this. He can swipe bases, play the outfield, and has plenty of time to develope his bat. I'd take Taveras over Beckett anyday. Why do we need Beckett? That would still have us looking like:
- Randy Johnson
- Carl Pavano
- Jaret Wright
- Cien Ming Wang
- Shawn Chacon
- Mike Mussina
I'm assuming that we'd be giving up Pavano or Wright, and we'd just be filling their rotation spot with Beckett. The Yankees do not need starting pitching, they need a CF and bullpen help.
noneckwilliams
11-20-05, 06:28 PM
Tavera The Yankees do not need starting pitching, they need a CF and bullpen help.
I agree and nor should DelGado be anywhere near their radar screen.
Taveras is a rookie and is going to develope into a good CF if he keeps going like this. He can swipe bases, play the outfield, and has plenty of time to develope his bat. I'd take Taveras over Beckett anyday. Why do we need Beckett? That would still have us looking like:
- Randy Johnson
- Carl Pavano
- Jaret Wright
- Cien Ming Wang
- Shawn Chacon
- Mike Mussina
I'm assuming that we'd be giving up Pavano or Wright, and we'd just be filling their rotation spot with Beckett. The Yankees do not need starting pitching, they need a CF and bullpen help.
I don't want Beckett either. BUt I also don't see how we're getting Taveras, and if we do somehow get him(which we won't), why would he leadoff?
Taveras is a rookie and is going to develope into a good CF if he keeps going like this. He can swipe bases, play the outfield, and has plenty of time to develope his bat. I'd take Taveras over Beckett anyday. Why do we need Beckett? That would still have us looking like:
- Randy Johnson
- Carl Pavano
- Jaret Wright
- Cien Ming Wang
- Shawn Chacon
- Mike Mussina
I'm assuming that we'd be giving up Pavano or Wright, and we'd just be filling their rotation spot with Beckett. The Yankees do not need starting pitching, they need a CF and bullpen help.
Considering that Johnson and Mussina will only start declining because of age, the Yankees will need a new ace. I would take Beckett over any of those pitchers. Finding a young pitcher with Beckett's caliber is harder than finding a guy like Taveras. I doubt we will get Beckett because he'll cost the whole farm and he isn't worth that.
ryanthe13th
11-20-05, 06:51 PM
I agree and nor should DelGado be anywhere near their radar screen.
My only problem with Delgado is that if we sign him:
- We'd have to give up someone for him. They'd probably want Wang, Cano, or Chacon. Guys that fit the profile of their team: Young and Cheap.
- We'd be going against our "off season plan"(which is basically out the window now anyway) to spend less money. Delgado is not cheaper than Andy Phillips by any means, and he didn't have a down year. Florida won't eat a lot of his contract to send him out of Miami.
He's a luxury, not a neccesity.
ryanthe13th
11-20-05, 06:59 PM
Considering that Johnson and Mussina will only start declining because of age, the Yankees will need a new ace. I would take Beckett over any of those pitchers. Finding a young pitcher with Beckett's caliber is harder than finding a guy like Taveras.
Why not wait until Beckett becomes that 200 inning pitcher that you're speaking of? I think he has one more year left on his deal with the Marlins, and he can replace Mussina.
Taveras hit .291, stole 34 bases, scored 82 runs and had 29 RBIs. Taveas is the ultimate "role player" that people are always complaining the Yankees do not have. We're more than stacked with young pitching with Chacon, Wang, and Pavano.
Why not wait until Beckett becomes that 200 inning pitcher that you're speaking of? I think he has one more year left on his deal with the Marlins, and he can replace Mussina.
Taveras hit .291, stole 34 bases, scored 82 runs and had 29 RBIs. Taveas is the ultimate "role player" that people are always complaining the Yankees do not have. We're more than stacked with young pitching with Chacon, Wang, and Pavano.
Why would the astros trade Taveras?
Why not wait until Beckett becomes that 200 inning pitcher that you're speaking of? I think he has one more year left on his deal with the Marlins, and he can replace Mussina.
Taveras hit .291, stole 34 bases, scored 82 runs and had 29 RBIs. Taveas is the ultimate "role player" that people are always complaining the Yankees do not have. We're more than stacked with young pitching with Chacon, Wang, and Pavano.
He pitched 180 innings last year. Other teams won't wait, someone will trade for him if the Marlins make him available this offseason. Wang, Chacon, and Pavano are not on the same level as Beckett and Beckett is younger than all of them.
jonnyc39
11-20-05, 07:18 PM
Why not wait until Beckett becomes that 200 inning pitcher that you're speaking of? I think he has one more year left on his deal with the Marlins, and he can replace Mussina.
Taveras hit .291, stole 34 bases, scored 82 runs and had 29 RBIs. Taveas is the ultimate "role player" that people are always complaining the Yankees do not have. We're more than stacked with young pitching with Chacon, Wang, and Pavano.
Where on earth did this Taveras talk come from? Under what scenario would Houston send him to New York?
And you can't compare Chacon and Wang, or even Pavano, to Josh Beckett. Obviously the Yankees are much more in the market for CF than they are for SP, but ANY team with any chance of getting someone like Beckett should go for it, in my opinion. Also, the reason you go and get him now instead of waiting two years until he is a FA is that you get him for cheap, and give up only prospects who, no matter how highly they are ranked, will likely not become the player that Beckett will.
sundstrom
11-20-05, 07:19 PM
would you do beckett, mota, and delgado for wang and hughes where the yanks take all the money?
would you do beckett, mota, and delgado for wang and hughes where the yanks take all the money?
Let's give em' A-rod for free while we're at it.
Wang's Groundballs
11-20-05, 07:34 PM
Let's give em' A-rod for free while we're at it.
To be fair though, talent wise we'd be coming out ahead (not including A-Rod obviously). It doesn't make sense to add that much salary when we can improve ourselves just as much by signing Giles, Durazo, and a guy like Tavarez for practically the same money without giving up Wang or Hughes.
I love Delgado. He's a phenomenal hitter -- probably one of the 10 best in the majors. But the only way I trade for him is if Jason is going for him, and this comes from a huge, huge Jase-Face fan.
ryanthe13th
11-20-05, 07:49 PM
Where on earth did this Taveras talk come from? Under what scenario would Houston send him to New York?
And you can't compare Chacon and Wang, or even Pavano, to Josh Beckett. Obviously the Yankees are much more in the market for CF than they are for SP, but ANY team with any chance of getting someone like Beckett should go for it, in my opinion. Also, the reason you go and get him now instead of waiting two years until he is a FA is that you get him for cheap, and give up only prospects who, no matter how highly they are ranked, will likely not become the player that Beckett will.
The Taveras talk came of someone bringing him up. I'm not saying it's happening, I'm just talking about who I'd rather have on the team if the scenario presented itself.
Who would you give up for Beckett?
buntsalot2
11-20-05, 08:00 PM
IF...
Yanks could corral long lost Lowell...
moving ARod to SS...
moving DJ to 2B...
and moving Cano to CF,
then the firesale would be worth it aside from a burnt out AJ asking 50M!
IF...
Yanks could corral long lost Lowell...
moving ARod to SS...
moving DJ to 2B...
and moving Cano to CF,
then the firesale would be worth it aside from a burnt out AJ asking 50M!
Lowell is terrible.
Cano is a big question mark in CF.
And you waste Jeter's arm.
I agree and nor should DelGado be anywhere near their radar screen.
You wouldn't want to see Carlos Delgado's bat in the Yankees line-up? Sure beats the DH we dont have thus far. Then again, if the Yankees did land Delgado they'd likely ship him out again for a CF and bullpen help.
IF...
Yanks could corral long lost Lowell...
moving ARod to SS...
moving DJ to 2B...
and moving Cano to CF,
then the firesale would be worth it aside from a burnt out AJ asking 50M!
Why are you moving Jeter to 2b instead of CF?
The Yanks could gain huge leverage in a 3-way or whatever way to get players we need. Aaron Rowand is our guy. I would love Ichiro as well, so we could pull strings with the Marlins to get him. We need to definitely keep our ear to the street with the Marlins, because if Boston gets Becket or Delgado...ouch.
Im a big fan of Rowand
sugmasterflex
11-20-05, 10:01 PM
I would make a serious run at Mota. I think he is in his walk year and you know people in the last year of their contracts usually perform well.
sundstrom
11-20-05, 10:13 PM
You wouldn't want to see Carlos Delgado's bat in the Yankees line-up? Sure beats the DH we dont have thus far. Then again, if the Yankees did land Delgado they'd likely ship him out again for a CF and bullpen help.
this was what i was thinking in my thought of getting beckett, mota, and delgado.
let's say boston signs konerko. now the chisox are in the market for a bat. so you have this 3 way:
yanks get:
rowand
beckett
mota
chisox get:
delgado
marlins get:
hughes
wang
and yes, i make that deal if i'm the yanks. even if you want to bring up beckett's health, i could counter with wang's. and as good as wang could be, he'll never be an ace. beckett can. plus the yanks get the CF they need and another solid bullpen arm.
Kulish29
11-20-05, 10:21 PM
this was what i was thinking in my thought of getting beckett, mota, and delgado.
let's say boston signs konerko. now the chisox are in the market for a bat. so you have this 3 way:
yanks get:
rowand
beckett
mota
chisox get:
delgado
marlins get:
hughes
wang
and yes, i make that deal if i'm the yanks. even if you want to bring up beckett's health, i could counter with wang's. and as good as wang could be, he'll never be an ace. beckett can. plus the yanks get the CF they need and another solid bullpen arm.
No thanks. No way I trade Wang AND Huges to get an injury prone pitcher like Beckett and Rowand is not worth Hughes.
Beckett has never pitched 200+ innings in his career. His road ERA last year was 4.31. He'd get lit up in the AL.
Kulish29
11-20-05, 10:23 PM
I read the Marlins asked for Cano and Wang for Pierre.
I hope Cashman sat on the phone and laughed for about 5 minutes straight before asking who their dealer was and then hanging up.
SubwayFanatic
11-21-05, 12:09 AM
I think he is in his walk year and you know people in the last year of their contracts usually perform well.
They do?
NYDCYankee
11-21-05, 12:14 AM
I read the Marlins asked for Cano and Wang for Pierre.
I hope Cashman sat on the phone and laughed for about 5 minutes straight before asking who their dealer was and then hanging up.
It doesn't hurt for them to ask? I don't blame them they know how desperate we are and they know how much George loves Pierre.
I think they think they can have high demands for Pierre considering that Milwaukee got Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik.
SubwayFanatic
11-21-05, 12:52 AM
He pitched 180 innings last year. Other teams won't wait, someone will trade for him if the Marlins make him available this offseason. Wang, Chacon, and Pavano are not on the same level as Beckett and Beckett is younger than all of them.
You, my friend, are 100% on.
It's funny how a guy like Wang -- and don't get me wrong, I think he will be a solid pitcher -- who is going to be 26 in March, who has a very low strikeout rate, who also battled injuries this year, is deemed as "untouchable" or close to it by quite a few people.
Meanwhile, Beckett, who has much more dominant stuff, who has a longer track record of pitching in the big leagues, who has a very good strikeout rate, who has pitched well in the playoffs, somehow is not that intriguing.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 01:39 AM
It doesn't hurt for them to ask? I don't blame them they know how desperate we are and they know how much George loves Pierre.
I think they think they can have high demands for Pierre considering that Milwaukee got Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik.
The Yankees arent coming off as desperate as they have already said that they will put Bubba in CF if needed.
NYDCYankee
11-21-05, 01:53 AM
The Yankees arent coming off as desperate as they have already said that they will put Bubba in CF if needed.
But do people around baseball believe that. I don't think so. I think they are just hoping to appear not desperate.
this was what i was thinking in my thought of getting beckett, mota, and delgado.
let's say boston signs konerko. now the chisox are in the market for a bat. so you have this 3 way:
yanks get:
rowand
beckett
mota
chisox get:
delgado
marlins get:
hughes
wang
and yes, i make that deal if i'm the yanks. even if you want to bring up beckett's health, i could counter with wang's. and as good as wang could be, he'll never be an ace. beckett can. plus the yanks get the CF they need and another solid bullpen arm.
Of course you make the trade if you are the Yankee because its a one sided deal. Too bad the Marlins won't make it. The Rangers are offering Blalock. The Yankees don't have a player with the same caliber as Blalock to match Texas.
Offer Pavano for Delgado even up.
No thanks. No way I trade Wang AND Huges to get an injury prone pitcher like Beckett and Rowand is not worth Hughes.
Beckett has never pitched 200+ innings in his career. His road ERA last year was 4.31. He'd get lit up in the AL.
Not that I want to trade Wang or Hughes, but Beckett is better than both of them. If Hughes turned into a guy like Beckett, the Yankees would be ecstatic.
Not that I want to trade Wang or Hughes, but Beckett is better than both of them. If Hughes turned into a guy like Beckett, the Yankees would be ecstatic.
And foolish.
Yankees1962
11-21-05, 07:49 AM
And foolish.
Why would the Yankees be foolish because Beckett's injury-prone, Hughes might be better or because Wang and Huguhes will be cheaper?
Why would the Yankees be foolish because Beckett's injury-prone, Hughes might be better or because Wang and Huguhes will be cheaper?
Hughes is the next Seaver; he's untouchable.
Beckett has durability issues that may or may not resolve themselves, and he has shown signs of bad character (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=16004).
If the Marlins want to dump salary, the don't have the leverage to get our best assets.
Hughes is the next Seaver; he's untouchable.
Beckett has durability issues that may or may not resolve themselves, and he has shown signs of bad character (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=16004).
If the Marlins want to dump salary, the don't have the leverage to get our best assets.
I hope you are being sarcastic, but Hughes is not the next Seaver. Hughes is only in A ball. Hughes also has had the same problems. He still hasn't pitched a full season yet. Wang's has had major arm surgery, plus he was out for some time in 2005 because of arm problems. The main reason to keep Wang and Hughes is because they are cheap. But no way do they compare to Beckett talent wise.
I hope you are being sarcastic, but Hughes is not the next Seaver. Hughes is only in A ball. Hughes also has had the same problems. He still hasn't pitched a full season yet. Wang's has had major arm surgery, plus he was out for some time in 2005 because of arm problems.
Nope, Hughes has that kind of ability. He really hasn't had any problems according to an e-mail I receved from Cashman. Any time he was shut down it was merely for precautionary reasons. He throws a fastball, curve, change, and will be permitted to throw his slider this year.
Wang was the Yankees' best starter last year. Unless the doctors are aware that he is an injury risk, I'm not moving him.
would you do beckett, mota, and delgado for wang and hughes where the yanks take all the money?
I would but I don't know that the Yanks would. It's not a bottomless pit of money there.
Kluivert4Ever
11-21-05, 08:48 AM
I think most here knows how I feel about Josh Beckett.
He is my favourite non-Yankee player so having him in pinstripes would be a dream come true.
You, my friend, are 100% on.
It's funny how a guy like Wang -- and don't get me wrong, I think he will be a solid pitcher -- who is going to be 26 in March, who has a very low strikeout rate, who also battled injuries this year, is deemed as "untouchable" or close to it by quite a few people.
Meanwhile, Beckett, who has much more dominant stuff, who has a longer track record of pitching in the big leagues, who has a very good strikeout rate, who has pitched well in the playoffs, somehow is not that intriguing.
Ditto! Finally a couple of guys on this board who aren't wearing rose colored glasses.
You, my friend, are 100% on.
It's funny how a guy like Wang -- and don't get me wrong, I think he will be a solid pitcher -- who is going to be 26 in March, who has a very low strikeout rate, who also battled injuries this year, is deemed as "untouchable" or close to it by quite a few people.
Meanwhile, Beckett, who has much more dominant stuff, who has a longer track record of pitching in the big leagues, who has a very good strikeout rate, who has pitched well in the playoffs, somehow is not that intriguing.
You're overlooking the fact that the Marlins have very little leverage as a result of their dire financial straits.
Nope, Hughes has that kind of ability. He really hasn't had any problems according to an e-mail I receved from Cashman. Any time he was shut down it was merely for precautionary reasons. He throws a fastball, curve, change, and will be permitted to throw his slider this year.
Wang was the Yankees' best starter last year. Unless the doctors are aware that he is an injury risk, I'm not moving him.
Hughes might have the potential to be like Beckett, but then again he is in A ball. Stuff wise, Beckett is better than Hughes. Any scout will tell you that.
Wang had Tommy John Surgery a couple of years ago, plus he was out for a good time this year because of some shoulder problems.
I can understand if you want to keep them because they will be cheap for the next few years, but talent wise they don't compare to Beckett.
porsche986
11-21-05, 08:56 AM
Nope, Hughes has that kind of ability. He really hasn't had any problems according to an e-mail I receved from Cashman. Any time he was shut down it was merely for precautionary reasons. He throws a fastball, curve, change, and will be permitted to throw his slider this year.
Wang was the Yankees' best starter last year. Unless the doctors are aware that he is an injury risk, I'm not moving him.
Come on Rich, you are much more rational than this. There is no way you can predict this guys future. There are alot of pitchers with more ability than him who went through the system and failed. As good as Lester, Sanchez and Papelbon have been, I don't expect them to be the next Randy Johnson, Cy Young, or Roger Clemens. Even King Felix who has 3x the upside of Hughes still has a lot to prove. It's great to be excited about young kids, but it's unfair to make this guy into a HOF when he hasn't even gotten past A ball. He is on the right track to be a very good pitcher, perhaps a #1 or #2 from reports I have read. You would just hope for him to keep progressing.
Hughes might have the potential to be like Beckett, but then again he is in A ball. Stuff wise, Beckett is better than Hughes. Any scout will tell you that.
Wang had Tommy John Surgery a couple of years ago, plus he was out for a good time this year because of some shoulder problems.
I can understand if you want to keep them because they will be cheap for the next few years, but talent wise they don't compare to Beckett.
Anonymously, perhaps which means nothing. Hughes will likely be better (not to menion cheaper) than Beckett in a short time, and unlike Beckett, he's not a punk.
As if players don't fully recover from surgery. Please, Wang threw 96 mph when he returned.
Again, not true with regard to Hughes.
Wang's Groundballs
11-21-05, 09:02 AM
Anonymously, perhaps which means nothing. Hughes will likely be better (not to menion cheaper) than Beckett in a short time, and unlike Beckett, he's not a punk.
I love Hughes. I think he's one of the best pitching prospects in the game. But the only way he's ever as good as Beckett is if things go perfect. Neither one have had great health records either, but I actually feel that in Beckett's case it could be beneficial since the blister problem has prevented him from getting more wear on his arm. Hughes' injuries thus far may not be scary, but I am starting to get worried that he's been shut down 2 straight seasons.
I love Hughes. I think he's one of the best pitching prospects in the game. But the only way he's ever as good as Beckett is if things go perfect. Neither one have had great health records either, but I actually feel that in Beckett's case it could be beneficial since the blister problem has prevented him from getting more wear on his arm. Hughes' injuries thus far may not be scary, but I am starting to get worried that he's been shut down 2 straight seasons.
As Cashman has said, Hughes really hasn't had injury problems, they have just been overly cautious with him, as he makes the transition from high school to pro ball.
The kid had been dominant even without the benefit of his full compliment of pitches.
As for Beckett, he has character issues, and there is no guarantee that he will ever overcome his blister issues.
I'm not trading Hughes for Beckett, no matter what.
Anonymously, perhaps which means nothing. Hughes will likely be better (not to menion cheaper) than Beckett in a short time, and unlike Beckett, he's not a punk.
As if players don't fully recover from surgery. Please, Wang threw 96 mph when he returned.
Again, not true with regard to Hughes.
You question Beckett's durablity but he's never had major arm surgery. I think he's a lot more durable than Wang who has had Tommy John in the past and some shoulder problems this year.
Again, Beckett's stuff is better than Hughes. His stuff ranks as one of the best in the league, but Beckett still hasn't put it all together to be a dominate starting pitcher.
You're overlooking the fact that the Marlins have very little leverage as a result of their dire financial straits.
I have never seen Hughes pitch and am really not capable of evaluating his potential even if I did. I have never read injury reports on Wang, Hughes and Beckett. I am not in a position to compare them and their potential.
But I do know that this comment is completely wrong. The Marlins have a lot of suitors for Beckett and are currently playing the Rangers and Red Sox off against each other to get them not only to take on Lowell's ridiculous contract but also to give up one of their prime pitching prospects. The
Marlins have plenty of leverage. There is no way the Y's get the kid without giving up someone like Wang or Hughes or Clippard.
Wang's Groundballs
11-21-05, 09:17 AM
As Cashman has said, Hughes really hasn't had injury problems, they have just been overly cautious with him, as he makes the transition from high school to pro ball.
The kid had been dominant even without the benefit of his full compliment of pitches.
As for Beckett, he has character issues, and there is no guarantee that he will ever overcome his blister issues.
I'm not trading Hughes for Beckett, no matter what.
He's still had to be shut down 2 seasons in a row. I'm glad they're being careful with him, but no matter how serious the injury problems actually are at this point, it's not a good sign that he's being shut down.
It's still only A ball. Beckett has shown he can dominate at the major league level.
I'd much rather take a chance with blisters than someone with serious elbow or shoulder problems, though. And while Hughes hasn't had a serious injury yet, there's a strong chance he will just because he's such a young pitcher.
I would in a heartbeat.
You question Beckett's durablity but he's never had major arm surgery. I think he's a lot more durable than Wang who has had Tommy John in the past and some shoulder problems this year.
Again, Beckett's stuff is better than Hughes. His stuff ranks as one of the best in the league, but Beckett still hasn't put it all together to be a dominate starting pitcher.
I don't question it, I cite it as fact: he has yet to make 30 starts in his first 4 full major league seasons.
How viable is that statment when Hughes hasn't been permitted to throw his full compliment of pitches? None.
OK, I tell you what, trade Wang for Beckett even up, but Hughes, nfw.
BronxByTheBay
11-21-05, 09:18 AM
As for Beckett, he has character issues,
Can you expand on that? I hadn't heard of this prior to this thread.
He's still had to be shut down 2 seasons in a row. I'm glad they're being careful with him, but no matter how serious the injury problems actually are at this point, it's not a good sign that he's being shut down.
It's still only A ball. Beckett has shown he can dominate at the major league level.
I'd much rather take a chance with blisters than someone with serious elbow or shoulder problems, though. And while Hughes hasn't had a serious injury yet, there's a strong chance he will just because he's such a young pitcher.
I would in a heartbeat.
Cashman thinks otherwise. I have no reason to doubt him.
Beckett has also proven that he's a jerk (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=16004).
You don't give up a prospect with Seaver like ability for a salary dump.
Can you expand on that? I hadn't heard of this prior to this thread.
See the link in my post above.
Yankees1962
11-21-05, 09:27 AM
Hughes might have the potential to be like Beckett, but then again he is in A ball. Stuff wise, Beckett is better than Hughes. Any scout will tell you that.
Wang had Tommy John Surgery a couple of years ago, plus he was out for a good time this year because of some shoulder problems.
I can understand if you want to keep them because they will be cheap for the next few years, but talent wise they don't compare to Beckett.
I thought Wang had shoulder surgery not TJ?
I thought Wang had shoulder surgery not TJ?
You're right (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/328385p-280705c.html), shame on me for taking the bait.
Wang's Groundballs
11-21-05, 09:30 AM
Cashman thinks otherwise. I have no reason to doubt him.
Beckett has also proven that he's a jerk (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=16004).
You don't give up a prospect with Seaver like ability for a salary dump.
He's also not going to say anything that would put into question the status of one of his team's top prospects.
Beckett is not a salary dump. And if Hughes has Seaver like ability, Beckett has Clemens like ability.
He's also not going to say anything that would put into question the status of one of his team's top prospects.
Beckett is not a salary dump. And if Hughes has Seaver like ability, Beckett has Clemens like ability.
OTOH, he could have just ignored my e-mail.
Granting your point for the sake of argument, he's still a salary dump with character issues. I would rather watch the homegrown kid become a lifelong Yankeee.
Wang's Groundballs
11-21-05, 09:40 AM
OTOH, he could have just ignored my e-mail.
Granting your point for the sake of argument, he's still a salary dump with character issues. I would rather watch the homegrown kid become a lifelong Yankeee.
Which would have allowed you to speculate the worst, if you so chose.
He made $2.4 million last year. How on earth is this a salary dump?
Which would have allowed you to speculate the worst, if you so chose.
He made $2.4 million last year. How on earth is this a salary dump?
But anything I say doesn't matter.
What does he get in arbitration?
I relented on Wang. Assemble a deal around him.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 09:57 AM
Granting your point for the sake of argument, he's still a salary dump with character issues. I would rather watch the homegrown kid become a lifelong Yankeee.
I think Rich has finally shown his reasoning behind this whole exchange. I think you are romanticizing this a bit and maybe aren't looking at it completely rationally.
If you can trade a low-A pitcher for Josh Beckett, straight up, you do it. The chances are just so slim that he will ever be of Beckett's calibur.
And I think the whole "character issues" thing is pretty silly. He's too arrogant? Show me a 25 year old multi millionaire that isn't and I'll eat my foot.
Wang's Groundballs
11-21-05, 10:02 AM
But anything I say doesn't matter.
What does he get in arbitration?
I relented on Wang. Assemble a deal around him.
Well now, I don't agree with that. ;)
Maybe $5 million, at the most.
This is why I'm glad I'm not a GM. I would have a hard time trading Wang for anybody, but obviously if a deal came along for Beckett you'd have to do it.
Wang + ?. I don't know what they'd want along with him.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 10:04 AM
Whoever wouldn't trade Hughes for Beckett is completely out of their mind.
We are talking about a 25 year old pitcher who in his career has already taken his team on his back and basically won them a title. Hughes? what has he shown us?
And for all those who will say that Beckett is injury prone, take a look at your good old buddy Hughes. He isn't exactly man of steel this early on in his career either...
No brainer
Whoever wouldn't trade Hughes for Beckett is completely out of their mind.
We are talking about a 25 year old pitcher who in his career has already taken his team on his back and basically won them a title. Hughes? what has he shown us?
And for all those who will say that Beckett is injury prone, take a look at your good old buddy Hughes. He isn't exactly man of steel this early on in his career either...
No brainer
Beckett lost game 3, its amazing how people overlook that.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 10:18 AM
Beckett lost game 3, its amazing how people overlook that.
I think game 3 was plained under terrible rain conditions if I'm not mistaken...not your typical game to base a players performance on.
And anyway, pitching on 3 days rest, in a world series clinching game and going the distance at YS - I think that makes up for the game 3 loss, don't ya think?
Prickly Pete
11-21-05, 10:19 AM
Beckett lost game 3, its amazing how people overlook that.
Yeah, he really got smacked around that night: 7.1 IP, 3 hits, 2 ER, 10 Ks.
If he's going to pitch like that in the World Series, then the Yankees should go nowhere near him.
I think game 3 was plained under terrible rain conditions if I'm not mistaken...not your typical game to base a players performance on.
And anyway, pitching on 3 days rest, in a world series clinching game and going the distance at YS - I think that makes up for the game 3 loss, don't ya think?
Yeah, he really got smacked around that night: 7.1 IP, 3 hits, 2 ER, 10 Ks.
If he's going to pitch like that in the World Series, then the Yankees should go nowhere near him.
It still doesn't mean he took his team on his back and won the WS. This wasn't RJ or Schilling from 01'.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 10:26 AM
It still doesn't mean he took his team on his back and won the WS. This wasn't RJ or Schilling from 01'.
Ok Sam, he didn't take the team on his back the way Schilling or RJ did in 01 - but he sure showed how oblivious he is to pressure situations by winning the big one, on the big stage. That in itself would be reason enough to unload Hughes and others to aquire Beckett. He is only 25! - to put that in perspective, Wang is also 25...
It still doesn't mean he took his team on his back and won the WS. This wasn't RJ or Schilling from 01'.
But the question isn't whether he is as good as RJ or Schilling from '01, it is whether he is worth Hughes in a trade.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 10:30 AM
Beckett has a 2.11 ERA in 42.7 post-season innings.
But the question isn't whether he is as good as RJ or Schilling from '01, it is whether he is worth Hughes in a trade.
I was arguing the point that he took his team on his back and won the WS. Yes I'd trade Hughes or Wang for him, but that's no happening so I pass.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 10:32 AM
But the question isn't whether he is as good as RJ or Schilling from '01, it is whether he is worth Hughes in a trade.
Of course he is worth Hughes in a trade. A lot of us Yankee fans are very excited that we may have a potential solid pitching prospect in Hughes. But can anyone guarantee that Hughes at the top of his game will pan out to be as good as Beckett? No way.
With Beckett you know what you will get. With Hughes, who knows?
How many major pitching prospects don't pan out?? Just go ask the Mets Fans how the NYFinest crew of Wilson, Pulsipher and Issy(as starter) worked out for them.
Eventhough I think Beckett has the potential to be a great pitcher, I don't think the Yankees have enough to get him unless they give up the whole farm. We don't have a player in the caliber in Blalock to match Texas.
Of course he is worth Hughes in a trade. A lot of us Yankee fans are very excited that we may have a potential solid pitching prospect in Hughes. But can anyone guarantee that Hughes at the top of his game will pan out to be as good as Beckett? No way.
With Beckett you know what you will get. With Hughes, who knows?
How many major pitching prospects don't pan out?? Just go ask the Mets Fans how the NYFinest crew of Wilson, Pulsipher and Issy(as starter) worked out for them.
I agree with this rationale 100%.
It still doesn't mean he took his team on his back and won the WS. This wasn't RJ or Schilling from 01'.
He was better than Schilling in '01. Schilling was about to be the losing pitcher in Game 7, remember.
Beckett pitched better in the '03 series than Schilling did in the '01 Series. The only thing you can fault him for was getting smacked around against the Cubs- but he rebounded more than nicely from that start.
Beckett is a tremendous talent, who has shown a knack for rising up in his small sample of big games. He is, however, extremely injury prone, and has yet to really live up to his immense talent. Mostly due to injury.....but there is a question there.
That being said.....you deal for him. At his age, the potential for a decade-long ace is huge. Would I deal Duncan and Hughes for Beckett and Lowell? Yes. Lowell DH's and plays 1B.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 11:06 AM
He was better than Schilling in '01. Schilling was about to be the losing pitcher in Game 7, remember.
Beckett pitched better in the '03 series than Schilling did in the '01 Series. The only thing you can fault him for was getting smacked around against the Cubs- but he rebounded more than nicely from that start.
Beckett is a tremendous talent, who has shown a knack for rising up in his small sample of big games. He is, however, extremely injury prone, and has yet to really live up to his immense talent. Mostly due to injury.....but there is a question there.
That being said.....you deal for him. At his age, the potential for a decade-long ace is huge. Would I deal Duncan and Hughes for Beckett and Lowell? Yes. Lowell DH's and plays 1B.
I am very surprised we are not hearing that the Yankees are invloved in this Beckett deal. If they were to offer Duncan and Hughes I wonder how that would be received by the Marlins. I don't think it would be good enough considering that Hanley Ramirez is a much more highly touted prospect than Duncan as is Jon Lester more touted than Hughes, and the Red Sox offer has not even been accepted.
We would have to throw in more than that, possibly Cano.
I am very surprised we are not hearing that the Yankees are invloved in this Beckett deal. If they were to offer Duncan and Hughes I wonder how that would be received by the Marlins. I don't think it would be good enough considering that Hanley Ramirez is a much more highly touted prospect than Duncan as is Jon Lester more touted than Hughes, and the Red Sox offer has not even been accepted.
We would have to throw in more than that, possibly Cano.
It's also not close to the Rangers offer, either. Hanley Ramirez, right now, is probably even with Duncan on the prospect scale. Ramirez is still mostly "toolsy". Dangerous player to project, since more than half of these guys never live up to their billing. Duncan, while struggling a lot, has shown tremendous ability and is a little more "projectable".
Lester is more advanced than Hughes, no doubt.
If the Yanks could somehow get Pavano involved in a deal, receive $.75 on the dollar for him with someone the Marlins like....I could see that going down. Yanks would then be more able to swallow Lowell's $. I don't think he's done, either.
Mattingly's Stache
11-21-05, 11:12 AM
This talk is getting a little absurd, Houston is NOT moving Tavares and its going to cost quite a bit for Beckett. Boston is offering Hanley Ramirez and either Lester or Sanchez and taking Lowell back in the deal. So they are offering prospects #1 and #2/3 plus eating 8 million in Lowell's salary and Texas is offering Blalock and possibly Danks (the key to the deal). So it would take either Cano or Wang plus a top prospect like Cabrera to even begin discussions.
IronCaballo4
11-21-05, 11:20 AM
I think we should stick with what we have and avoid signing more pitchers with problems pitching 200 innings
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 11:24 AM
I don't see what everybody is so big on Beckett about. He's been in a very pitcher-friendly park his entire career, and on the road, he's been mediocre. In the National League. Move him into Yankee Stadium in the AL, and you're probably talking a 4.30era, or higher. (he was at 4.31 on the road this year, 4.14 for his career) I'm not giving up my best prospect, or a dirt-cheap quality pitcher like Wang for that. Especially when they would only be part of a deal.
I don't see what everybody is so big on Beckett about. He's been in a very pitcher-friendly park his entire career, and on the road, he's been mediocre. In the National League. Move him into Yankee Stadium in the AL, and you're probably talking a 4.30era, or higher. (he was at 4.31 on the road this year, 4.14 for his career) I'm not giving up my best prospect, or a dirt-cheap quality pitcher like Wang for that. Especially when they would only be part of a deal.
If he was 25 and had been dominating the minors for 2 and 1/2 years, then pitched like he did the last two years, he'd be an amazing talent with spectacular potential.
As it is, he has pitched in the majors now for 4 years. His peripheral numbers are excellent- he does pitch in a very good pitcher's park, but his hits ratio and strikeout ratio are excellent.
To top it off, his pure talent and stuff is elite of elite. He has the raw ability to be the best pitcher in the league, and he's still a baby.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 12:12 PM
If he was 25 and had been dominating the minors for 2 and 1/2 years, then pitched like he did the last two years, he'd be an amazing talent with spectacular potential.
As it is, he has pitched in the majors now for 4 years. His peripheral numbers are excellent- he does pitch in a very good pitcher's park, but his hits ratio and strikeout ratio are excellent.
To top it off, his pure talent and stuff is elite of elite. He has the raw ability to be the best pitcher in the league, and he's still a baby.
His peripheral numbers aren't "excellent." He's in the #1 strikeout park in baseball, and the last two years he's declined to an 8.36 k/9. Thats good, but in the NL, in Pro Player Stadium, its hardly excellent. His G/F ratio is about league average, and he's above average in terms of avoiding walks and home runs. And, as I said, he still has pitched at a very mediocre level outside of his home park. Still in the NL. I think that if he were traded to the Yankees, he post an ERA of about 4.30, and I doubt he'd be able to pitch a full season, based on his 9 DL trips in 4 years.
Regarding his "stuff," Matt Clement has the stuff to be the best pitcher in the league. So does Burnett. Beckett's statistical similarities to Burnett are incredible, except that Burnett has been able to throw 200ip twice. And I have zero interest in signing Burnett.
SubwayFanatic
11-21-05, 12:17 PM
I think we should stick with what we have and avoid signing more pitchers with problems pitching 200 innings
Why are some people so obsessed with pointing out that Beckett has not pitched 200 innings or more? Yes, we know this. And, yes, it is a concern. Yet his innings have increased over the last three years and he has proven that he is an above average pitcher. Oh, and he is only 25.
If Beckett were on the Yankees, virtually everyone would think this guy was untradable.
SubwayFanatic
11-21-05, 12:22 PM
I think that if he were traded to the Yankees, he post an ERA of about 4.30,
Which would probably make him the second or third best pitcher on the staff next year.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 12:22 PM
His peripheral numbers aren't "excellent." He's in the #1 strikeout park in baseball, and the last two years he's declined to an 8.36 k/9. Thats good, but in the NL, in Pro Player Stadium, its hardly excellent. His G/F ratio is about league average, and he's above average in terms of avoiding walks and home runs. And, as I said, he still has pitched at a very mediocre level outside of his home park. Still in the NL. I think that if he were traded to the Yankees, he post an ERA of about 4.30, and I doubt he'd be able to pitch a full season, based on his 9 DL trips in 4 years.
Regarding his "stuff," Matt Clement has the stuff to be the best pitcher in the league. So does Burnett. Beckett's statistical similarities to Burnett are incredible, except that Burnett has been able to throw 200ip twice. And I have zero interest in signing Burnett.
In all seriousness, what in the world is "a strikeout park"??
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 12:24 PM
If Beckett were on the Yankees, virtually everyone would think this guy was untradable.
1)If Beckett had produced his numbers with the Yankees, in the AL, he'd be a better pitcher.
2) If Beckett were on the Yankees, the cost to see if he can reach his potential is nothing. The cost to find out now is probably Hughes and Cano+. I am strongly against trading prospects for players who are perceived to be better than they actually are. Beckett's stock is very high because he kicked ass in the WS in 2003, and because he's a good body, good stuff pitcher moreso than it is because of his actual performance. It is much more cost-effecient to develop players like that than to get them from other teams.
His peripheral numbers aren't "excellent." He's in the #1 strikeout park in baseball, and the last two years he's declined to an 8.36 k/9. Thats good, but in the NL, in Pro Player Stadium, its hardly excellent. His G/F ratio is about league average, and he's above average in terms of avoiding walks and home runs. And, as I said, he still has pitched at a very mediocre level outside of his home park. Still in the NL. I think that if he were traded to the Yankees, he post an ERA of about 4.30, and I doubt he'd be able to pitch a full season, based on his 9 DL trips in 4 years.
Regarding his "stuff," Matt Clement has the stuff to be the best pitcher in the league. So does Burnett. Beckett's statistical similarities to Burnett are incredible, except that Burnett has been able to throw 200ip twice. And I have zero interest in signing Burnett.
Clement and Beckett's "stuff" isn't even comparable. Clement has a 92-94 fastball and mediocre, at best, breaking stuff. Beckett throws a moving 95-98 fastball with a fabulous curve. Burnett has a comparable fastball, but his breaking stuff is a bit behind Beckett.
I'm a little confused as to what constitutes a "strikeout park". Seems a silly statistic to me. I would think a staff with the arms like the Marlins would be at or near the top in that stat, simply because their pitchers are much more powerful than most other staffs. I don't know why a strikeout would be more measureable in a specific park than another. Seems silly.
As for Beckett/Burnett.....Beckett, aside from a likely slight advantage in stuff, has better command of the zone. He walks batters, but he is much better controlling the location of his pitches than Burnett is- and he is a much smarter pitcher, too. Burnett is still a bit of a thrower....great upside, though, and I'd love to have him (though long term contracts for injury prone pitchers is a good reason to stay away here).
Beckett's major issue, and it is a big one, is injury risk. But I would be hard-pressed to say he is more likely to get injured than someone like Wang or Hughes- two pitchers who have also shown signs of injury problems early in their careers.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 12:27 PM
Regarding his "stuff," Matt Clement has the stuff to be the best pitcher in the league. So does Burnett. Beckett's statistical similarities to Burnett are incredible, except that Burnett has been able to throw 200ip twice. And I have zero interest in signing Burnett.
Except that Beckett is three years younger and won't be commanding $10+M/year.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 12:28 PM
In all seriousness, what in the world is "a strikeout park"??
I asked the very same question the first time I heard that. The combination of small foul territory with very humid air is prone to increasing strikeouts. Also, in heavy pitcher's parks, like Pro Player, pitchers are more likely to challenge hitters without so much fear of allowing home runs, which results in more strikeouts. If you look at Marlin's games in Pro Player vs. Marlin's games on the road over the last few years, you'll likely see a fair discrepency in the number of K's.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 12:29 PM
In all seriousness, what in the world is "a strikeout park"??
Good question. First time I've ever heard that line.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 12:29 PM
Except that Beckett is three years younger and won't be commanding $10+M/year.
And that Beckett dominated the AL lineup known as the Yankees in the 03 WS. What has Burnett showed us that might suggest he won't be the next in line of NL pitchers who come to the AL and get smacked around?
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 12:29 PM
Except that Beckett is three years younger and won't be commanding $10+M/year.
Personally, I'd rather spend money than clean out the top levels of our farm system.
I asked the very same question the first time I heard that. The combination of small foul territory with very humid air is prone to increasing strikeouts. Also, in heavy pitcher's parks, like Pro Player, pitchers are more likely to challenge hitters without so much fear of allowing home runs, which results in more strikeouts.
in addition, different parks have different hitting backgrounds that effect how the batter sees the ball and, as a result, the number of strikes and walkouts.
I asked the very same question the first time I heard that. The combination of small foul territory with very humid air is prone to increasing strikeouts. Also, in heavy pitcher's parks, like Pro Player, pitchers are more likely to challenge hitters without so much fear of allowing home runs, which results in more strikeouts.
I would think these factors have a tiny influence- but nothing huge. Quality of the pitching is overridingly more important. Question- is SD, Detroit, and Oakland all at the top of this stat? Three parks with either huge foul territory or large outfield expanses?
I agree Pro Player is a pitcher friendly park. But strikeout measurements is taking stat evaluation a bit too far.
Personally, I'd rather spend money than clean out the top levels of our farm system.
I think thats a valid point. If Beckett will cost us the whole farm then he isn't worth it and I am a big Beckett fan.
I'm a little confused as to what constitutes a "strikeout park". Seems a silly statistic to me. I would think a staff with the arms like the Marlins would be at or near the top in that stat, simply because their pitchers are much more powerful than most other staffs. I don't know why a strikeout would be more measureable in a specific park than another. Seems silly.
The Yankees hit a lot of homeruns, but that doesn't make YS a homerun park. Like all park factors, you are not measuring how good or bad the home team is at a skill, but whether or not they can maintain that skill at other parks, whether or not visitors gain that skill when they come to that park, and so on and so forth.
I think thats a valid point. If Beckett will cost us the whole farm then he isn't worth it and I am a big Beckett fan.
I agree with this. But I don't agree with the argument that Beckett isn't special. He is. Just has a few factors that are worrisome- injury history and the fact he'd cost a ton.
Josh Beckett is in the elite few pitchers who can absolutely dominate a handful of game every year. "No chance" games. Pedro used to have a dozen or so a year, Clemens in his prime, RJ, etc. Santana now in the AL, but there aren't many. Beckett has that ability, and his raw natural talent is so good that I would love to have him on the Yanks. but there is a cost I woudl say no
I agree with this. But I don't agree with the argument that Beckett isn't special. He is. Just has a few factors that are worrisome- injury history and the fact he'd cost a ton.
Josh Beckett is in the elite few pitchers who can absolutely dominate a handful of game every year. "No chance" games. Pedro used to have a dozen or so a year, Clemens in his prime, RJ, etc. Santana now in the AL, but there aren't many. Beckett has that ability, and his raw natural talent is so good that I would love to have him on the Yanks. but there is a cost I woudl say no
I think Beckett is special too. His raw stuff is awesome. I would love to see him on the Yankees, but I feel the Marlins would ask for just too much.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 12:39 PM
I agree with this. But I don't agree with the argument that Beckett isn't special. He is. Just has a few factors that are worrisome- injury history and the fact he'd cost a ton.
Josh Beckett is in the elite few pitchers who can absolutely dominate a handful of game every year. "No chance" games. Pedro used to have a dozen or so a year, Clemens in his prime, RJ, etc. Santana now in the AL, but there aren't many. Beckett has that ability, and his raw natural talent is so good that I would love to have him on the Yanks. but there is a cost I woudl say no
I would have no problem trading what we have in our system for Beckett. Beckett is the player that you hope your minor leaguers turn out to be, so why take a chance and bank on our minor leaguers, when Beckett may be there for the taking.
As of right now, I am very nervous that the team we feild this year will be worse than the team we feilded last year (with the impending loss of Gordon, and lack of nice player to play cf). If I were the Yankees FO I would make this trade to make this coming season and the next 10 seasons brighter...
I would have no problem trading what we have in our system for Beckett. Beckett is the player that you hope your minor leaguers turn out to be, so why take a chance and bank on our minor leaguers, when Beckett may be there for the taking.
As of right now, I am very nervous that the team we feild this year will be worse than the team we feilded last year (with the impending loss of Gordon, and lack of nice player to play cf). If I were the Yankees FO I would make this trade to make this coming season and the next 10 seasons brighter...
It depends on who and how much we are trading. We can't just give up the whole farm for just one player that would be foolish. I would expect it to be a lot. Remember, the Yankees have to top Blalock and Danks.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 12:46 PM
I would think these factors have a tiny influence- but nothing huge. Quality of the pitching is overridingly more important. Question- is SD, Detroit, and Oakland all at the top of this stat? Three parks with either huge foul territory or large outfield expanses?
I agree Pro Player is a pitcher friendly park. But strikeout measurements is taking stat evaluation a bit too far.
I just checked some splits. You're free to research this further, but these are the first 8 players I looked at on the Marlins.
K/9
Beckett: Home, 8.70; Away, 7.91
Burnett: Home, 10.39; Away, 7.16 (as if I needed another reason to not want him)
Willis: Home, 7.00; Away, 5.86
Mota: Home, 8.23; Away, 7.87
AB/K
M. Cabrera: Home, 4.60; Away, 5.21
Lowell: Home, 7.94; Away, 9.65
LoDuca: Home, 12.41; Away, 16.71
Delgado: Home, 4.06; Away, 4.54
And keep in mind, that 7.91 is neutral park in the NL. So we're looking at it probably dropping to about 7.00-7.30 in the AL. Again, trading premium talent for Becket is not something that interests me.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 12:49 PM
I just checked some splits. You're free to research this further, but these are the first 8 players I looked at on the Marlins.
K/9
Beckett: Home, 8.70; Away, 7.91
Burnett: Home, 10.39; Away, 7.16 (as if I needed another reason to not want him)
Willis: Home, 7.00; Away, 5.86
Mota: Home, 8.23; Away, 7.87
AB/K
M. Cabrera: Home, 4.60; Away, 5.21
Lowell: Home, 7.94; Away, 9.65
LoDuca: Home, 12.41; Away, 16.71
Delgado: Home, 4.06; Away, 4.54
And keep in mind, that 7.91 is neutral park in the NL. So we're looking at it probably dropping to about 7.00-7.30 in the AL. Again, trading premium talent for Becket is not something that interests me.
How can we say that Duncan and Hughes are premium talent at this point in their minor league careers? I think these two players are vastly overated by our Yankee fanbase.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 12:53 PM
How can we say that Duncan and Hughes are premium talent at this point in their minor league careers? I think these two players are vastly overated by our Yankee fanbase.
Whoever we trade, its going to have to be someone good. I suspect Hughes and Cano will both have to be part of the deal, likely with another minor league prospect in our top 10. Hughes and Duncan are our two highest rated prospects, so to call them "premium talent," especially from the Yankees perspective, is not at all a stretch.
Here's the deal. You like Beckett's stuff and talent. It is impressive. But it has translated into "good" performance. Now you want to take that "good" performance out of a weak hitting park in a weak hitting division in a weak hitting league. Thats a tremendous risk, and its not one I'm willing to trade our top young talent for.
Whoever we trade, its going to have to be someone good. I suspect Hughes and Cano will both have to be part of the deal, likely with another minor league prospect in our top 10. Hughes and Duncan are our two highest rated prospects, so to call them "premium talent," especially from the Yankees perspective, is not at all a stretch.
Here's the deal. You like Beckett's stuff and talent. It is impressive. But it has translated into "good" performance. Now you want to take that "good" performance out of a weak hitting park in a weak hitting division in a weak hitting league. Thats a tremendous risk, and its not one I'm willing to trade our top young talent for.
I think it would take Wang, Cano, and Hughes.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 12:59 PM
I think it would take Wang, Cano, and Hughes.
I would never, ever, make that deal.
I just checked some splits. You're free to research this further, but these are the first 8 players I looked at on the Marlins.
K/9
Beckett: Home, 8.70; Away, 7.91
Burnett: Home, 10.39; Away, 7.16 (as if I needed another reason to not want him)
Willis: Home, 7.00; Away, 5.86
Mota: Home, 8.23; Away, 7.87
AB/K
M. Cabrera: Home, 4.60; Away, 5.21
Lowell: Home, 7.94; Away, 9.65
LoDuca: Home, 12.41; Away, 16.71
Delgado: Home, 4.06; Away, 4.54
And keep in mind, that 7.91 is neutral park in the NL. So we're looking at it probably dropping to about 7.00-7.30 in the AL. Again, trading premium talent for Becket is not something that interests me.
These are compelling statistics. However, before I subscribe to this, I would need to see an overview of players in their home parks. Those who play in "neutral" and other type of "strikeout" parks. They certainly look supportive, but unless it is measured against comparable numbers for the other parks it is hard to be swayed off of something that on the surface looks like a weak argument.
But I am now interested....
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 01:07 PM
These are compelling statistics. However, before I subscribe to this, I would need to see an overview of players in their home parks. Those who play in "neutral" and other type of "strikeout" parks. They certainly look supportive, but unless it is measured against comparable numbers for the other parks it is hard to be swayed off of something that on the surface looks like a weak argument.
But I am now interested....
Thats why I posted the hitters' numbers as well. This shows it isn't just an effect of playing at home, otherwise why would the Marlins' hitters strike out more often at home? Those numbers mean that opposing pitchers come into Pro Player and become better at striking hitters out.
I am forced to make my first post after reading this forum. I like the forums here and usually find them to be pretty informative and pretty reasonable. That was until today. To say that you would not trade Philip Hughes for Josh Beckett has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. The love affair that some people have with "prospects" befuddles me. Phillip Hughes is not the next Tom Seaver and the Yankees shouldn't waste 6-7 seasons to realize he is more like the next David West. If the Yankees could acquire a proven commodity like Beckett or Torii Hunter for a minor league player with "potential" why shouldn't they?? When is Eric Duncan going to be playing 3rd Base?? Oh yeah I forget when Jeter moves to CF and ARod moves to SS which will be quarter past never.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 01:25 PM
I am forced to make my first post after reading this forum. I like the forums here and usually find them to be pretty informative and pretty reasonable. That was until today. To say that you would not trade Philip Hughes for Josh Beckett has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. The love affair that some people have with "prospects" befuddles me. Phillip Hughes is not the next Tom Seaver and the Yankees shouldn't waste 6-7 seasons to realize he is more like the next David West. If the Yankees could acquire a proven commodity like Beckett or Torii Hunter for a minor league player with "potential" why shouldn't they?? When is Eric Duncan going to be playing 3rd Base?? Oh yeah I forget when Jeter moves to CF and ARod moves to SS which will be quarter past never.
Interesting first post.
I must say I mostly agree with all your comments, except trading for Hunter...
You hit it right on the button, potential isn't worth anything(Hughes) when you can have someone who is proven (beckett)...
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 01:26 PM
Interesting first post.
I must say I mostly agree with all your comments, except trading for Hunter...
You hit it right on the button, potential isn't worth anything(Hughes) when you can have someone who is proven (beckett)...
Beckett is proven to be what, exactly? I might trade Hughes for Beckett if that was all it took. But it would take a lot more than that, and it wouldn't be worth it.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 01:32 PM
People around here always stress how important it is for the Yankees to develop a starter like a Beckett themselves so they can stay competitive and not have to spend big bucks on FA's.
Now some of the same people want to trade the Yankees best prospect, and potential future Ace, for a guy who has had legit injury problems, has character/ego issues and costs/will cost more money. I dont get it.
My point was that someone suggested a 3 team trade ealier in this discussion and it got immediatly discounted becuase Hughes couldn't be included. IMO not only was that an excellent trade but one that if the Yankees got approached with they would be fools for not doing it. Do not try to sit here and tell me Josh Beckett is not a good pitcher because it will only make you look foolish. He is a dominant pitcher with excellent stuff who has had some minor injuries that led to DL trips. He has never required Tommy John surgery or anything of that magnitude. Whenever you don't make a trade for someone becuase you have "the next ......." you have a problem because Josh Beckett is already Josh Beckett.
Also feel free to post any listing from a reputable baseball magazine like Baseball America or someone like that that would give you the idea that Phillip Hughes is going to be some hugh prospect with endless ability. Until this happens he is just the product of hype in this forum.
SubwayFanatic
11-21-05, 01:40 PM
Beckett is proven to be what, exactly?
-An above average major league pitcher
-A guy who can strikeout close to a batter per inning
-A pitcher who can dominate in October
-A pitcher who has dominate stuff
In short, he has proven a hell of a lot more than the likes of Hughes or Wang.
When Pedro Martinez was Beckett's age, their career numbers were quite similar. Pedro had some pretty good looking numbers, but hadn't "broken out". Randy Johnson was barely in the majors at that age. Ron Guidry wasn't in the majors. Etc....
There are very few pitchers who dominate at the age of 25. There is generally a learning curve, and Beckett has certainly pitched well at an extremely young age.
The ONLY thing that worries me about him is injury- and that is a large concern. But if anyone thinks that a healthy Josh Beckett would not be worth two premium prospects- at least- is fooling themselves. Projecting a talented, injury prone kid in Single A is tough to do. Beckett is a mid-20's pitcher who has already tasted success at the major league level.
You can inspect his stats and break them down to where he looks average- but in some cases you can simply trust your eyes. He struggles after he returns from injury- but he has been in several grooves in his career where he simply became unhittable for stretches. If you break down his starts, he actually looks a lot better than his numbers. That's because he gets hammered in a few and pitches exceedingly well in most of the others. I'd prefer a pitcher to throw 7 innings of 1 run ball most of the time with the occasional 6 runs in 4 innings to someone who is the same steady pitcher.
He loses concentration and/or mechanics for short stretches. But a simple breakdown of Beckett's game logs shows a dominating pitcher beneath the surface of his good (though not great) statistics.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 01:41 PM
Beckett has a 2.11 ERA in 42.7 post-season innings.
Three year ERA away from Pro Player: 4.10 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6403&type=pitching3&three=1)
Three year ERA away from Pro Player: 4.10 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6403&type=pitching3&three=1)
But he's teh clutch!!111!
People around here always stress how important it is for the Yankees to develop a starter like a Beckett themselves so they can stay competitive and not have to spend big bucks on FA's.
Now some of the same people want to trade the Yankees best prospect, and potential future Ace, for a guy who has had legit injury problems, has character/ego issues and costs/will cost more money. I dont get it.
I love Hughes, but to project a pitcher who has pitched exactly one half of a season in the low minors (and who sustained an arm injury causing him to miss the final half) as a future ace seems a little premature. He is a premium prospect (for the Yanks), and should be treated as such. But to say he is not worth including in a deal for a 25-year old talent like Beckett is stretching it a bit too far.
Most talk of developing their own players is because many of the premium talent the Yanks have been acquiring have been on the downside of great careers. Beckett is certainly not in that class.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 01:45 PM
And that Beckett dominated the AL lineup known as the Yankees in the 03 WS. What has Burnett showed us that might suggest he won't be the next in line of NL pitchers who come to the AL and get smacked around?
He was dominant for two games. Two. A lot different from the 30 he might start in the offensivley superior AL.
I love Hughes, but to project a pitcher who has pitched exactly one half of a season in the low minors (and who sustained an arm injury causing him to miss the final half) as a future ace seems a little premature. He is a premium prospect (for the Yanks), and should be treated as such. But to say he is not worth including in a deal for a 25-year old talent like Beckett is stretching it a bit too far.
Most talk of developing their own players is because many of the premium talent the Yanks have been acquiring have been on the downside of great careers. Beckett is certainly not in that class.
But that's not what we're arguing here. Its gonna cost a lot more than Hughes to get Beckett and its just not worth it.
SubwayFanatic
11-21-05, 01:48 PM
Someone explain this to me....
If guys like Lidge and Gagne are compared to Mo, even though those two pitchers have a few years of dominate big league pitching under their belts, people automatically mock those comparisons because they'll say that these guys have not done it over the long haul like Mo has. In some regards, that's a fair point.
But along those lines, how the heck can people make the claims that a guy like Hughes is untouchable, the next Seaver, the next stupid pitcher, etc., considering he is probably a couple of years away from even sniffing the big leagues?
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 01:50 PM
He was dominant for two games. Two. A lot different from the 30 he might start in the offensivley superior AL.
Yes it was just two games. I'll tell you another thing though, if any pitcher can choose any two games to be dominant, you better believe it would be his two WS starts.
As Pavano, Weaver, Contreras and Vazquez have shown us, you gotta have guts to pitch in NY at YS. Beckett sure picked a solid two games to show us what he is capable of.
scull567
11-21-05, 01:52 PM
Three year ERA away from Pro Player: 4.10 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6403&type=pitching3&three=1)
I think people are looking too much into these splits. So do you truly believe that if Beckett were to pitch for a different team in the NL that he would be simply an average pitcher? That he is just the product of the ballpark? I just don't buy it. I just think people are picking apart Beckett too much, you are not going to find a perfect pitcher (young, durable, winning record, great stuff, perfect home/road splits, performed in postseason, performed in a big market, etc). Those pitchers just don't exist. On the list of pitchers I'd want for the 5 years, Beckett would be near the top of that list - faults and all. And to not give up hughes for him is ridiculous....if Cashman was offered a hughes for beckett deal there is no doubt that he would do that in a second.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 01:54 PM
I am forced to make my first post after reading this forum. I like the forums here and usually find them to be pretty informative and pretty reasonable. That was until today. To say that you would not trade Philip Hughes for Josh Beckett has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. The love affair that some people have with "prospects" befuddles me. Phillip Hughes is not the next Tom Seaver and the Yankees shouldn't waste 6-7 seasons to realize he is more like the next David West. If the Yankees could acquire a proven commodity like Beckett or Torii Hunter for a minor league player with "potential" why shouldn't they?? When is Eric Duncan going to be playing 3rd Base?? Oh yeah I forget when Jeter moves to CF and ARod moves to SS which will be quarter past never.
Why dont you read some of the facts that have been posted all through this thread and then think again.
Beckett plays in a extreme pitchers park, has an ERA that is 1.23 points higher away from Pro Player, is oft injured, has ego/character issues, and has never pitched 30 games or 200 innings for his career.
He's simply not worth Hughes. Not by a long shot.
Why dont you read some of the facts that have been posted all through this thread and then think again.
Beckett plays in a extreme pitchers park, has an ERA a full 2 points higher away from Pro Player, is oft injured, has ego/character issues, and has never pitched 30 games or 200 innings for his career.
He's simply not worth Hughes. Not by a long shot.
I'd trade Hughes for him.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 01:55 PM
Yes it was just two games. I'll tell you another thing though, if any pitcher can choose any two games to be dominant, you better believe it would be his two WS starts.
As Pavano, Weaver, Contreras and Vazquez have shown us, you gotta have guts to pitch in NY at YS. Beckett sure picked a solid two games to show us what he is capable of.
You have to play a full season to get to those games.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 01:58 PM
....if Cashman was offered a hughes for beckett deal there is no doubt that he would do that in a second.
I doubt he would.
Where are the character issues coming from? He does have a big ego- but he's reportedly pretty well-liked and respected in the clubhouse.
I want a kid like Beckett to have an ego. The opposite we've seen way too much- guys doubting their abilities. Clemens was a humongous ego as a kid in Boston- he turned into a pretty decent pitcher.
I agree that people are looking into Beckett's road numbers a little too much. How about considering that a 23/24/25 year old pitcher put up some pretty good major league numbers? And that he has a very large number of dominating starts to his credit already?
It's not like he's pitching 7 innings and surrendering 4 runs each time out. He's blowing teams out of the water in a lot of games, and then getting hit hard in a few games each year. That says "young, developing pitcher" to me.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 02:01 PM
-An above average major league pitcher
-A guy who can strikeout close to a batter per inning
-A pitcher who can dominate in October
-A pitcher who has dominate stuff
In short, he has proven a hell of a lot more than the likes of Hughes or Wang.
-A guy with numbers that look decidedly mediocre away from his cushy home park
-A guy with serious injury questions (9 DL trips in 4 seasons!!!)
-A guy with serious character questions
-A guy who pitches in the National League
He's not worth what it will take to get him. An optimistic guess is Hughes, Cano, and a Sean Henn level prospect.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 02:02 PM
I doubt he would.
If Cashman wouldn't make a straight up Hughes for Beckett trade, than he deserves to be fired.
I do not see under which circumstance you would doubt that Cashman would make that trade. Like I have said before in this thread, Beckett is the pitcher that YOU HOPE Hughes will turn out to be. Why not get the real thing and throw away the potential star for the realiztic star.
Wang's Groundballs
11-21-05, 02:02 PM
I Love Wang is right in that Pro Player is a good strikeout park. I ran the numbers from 2002-2005 and here are the following park factors for it:
rHF r1BF r2BF r3BF rHRF rBBF rSOF
0.976 0.987 0.958 1.074 0.920 1.035 1.047
So I ran Beckett's numbers while adjusting for park, then I took the park adjusted numbers and adjusted them for moving to the AL:
DATA IP H 1B 2B 3B HR SO BB HB DP SB CS BF SO/9 BB/9 HR/9 RC ERA
2005 179.7 153 99 34 6 14 166 58 7 17 6 7 728 8.314 2.905 0.701 69 3.45
A. 2005 176.6 160 102 36 6 16 159 56 7 17 6 7 728 8.080 2.856 0.790 71 3.64
AL 2005 176.4 165 105 37 6 17 148 52 7 18 6 7 728 7.537 2.649 0.854 73 3.71
I doubt he would.
Now, that's simply foolish. Cashman wouldn't trade a 20-year old kid with half a year of experience- who missed the whole second half with a shoulder injury- for a 25 year old fireballer who has already pitched AT WORST decently in his first few seasons and has dominated in the most pressure filled games of his career? A pitcher who out of high school was one of the only pitchers in the last 25 years to score perfect scores in just about every scouting category, who has dominated countless major league lineups at a young age, and has the ability to become a great pitcher?
You think he'd turn that down? If he did, he'd never get another job in baseball. But I'm not sure he could accept it, considering he might hit his head on the ceiling jumping for joy.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 02:03 PM
-A guy with numbers that look decidedly mediocre away from his cushy home park
-A guy with serious injury questions (9 DL trips in 4 seasons!!!)
-A guy with serious character questions
-A guy who pitches in the National League
He's not worth what it will take to get him. An optimistic guess is Hughes, Cano, and a Sean Henn level prospect.
This man with serious character issues used to bed Leann Tweeden on a nightly basis....I want those damn character issues!
I Love Wang is right in that Pro Player is a good strikeout park. I ran the numbers from 2002-2005 and here are the following park factors for it:
rHF r1BF r2BF r3BF rHRF rBBF rSOF
0.976 0.987 0.958 1.074 0.920 1.035 1.047
So I ran Beckett's numbers while adjusting for park, then I took the park adjusted numbers and adjusted them for moving to the AL:
DATA IP H 1B 2B 3B HR SO BB HB DP SB CS BF SO/9 BB/9 HR/9 RC ERA
2005 179.7 153 99 34 6 14 166 58 7 17 6 7 728 8.314 2.905 0.701 69 3.45
A. 2005 176.6 160 102 36 6 16 159 56 7 17 6 7 728 8.080 2.856 0.790 71 3.64
AL 2005 176.4 165 105 37 6 17 148 52 7 18 6 7 728 7.537 2.649 0.854 73 3.71
If you give me the above year as a 25-year old.......I get excited about the future.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 02:06 PM
I agree that people are looking into Beckett's road numbers a little too much. How about considering that a 23/24/25 year old pitcher put up some pretty good major league numbers? And that he has a very large number of dominating starts to his credit already?
How does it make sense to ignore prudent factual information (i.e. he benefits significantly from his home park, which he would no longer be pitching in, he pitches in the NL, he's been on the DL 9 times in 4 years, and he's had several run-ins with Marlins coaches and other staff) because it sounds nicer to say that he's put up some pretty good major league numbers. When we're talking about investing a huge amount of talent in Hughes, we're not going to gloss over relevant information so we can tell ourselves he'll be good. Yeah, he's put up some strong numbers. But if we really look into those numbers, there is serious concern about how he'd produce if he were on the Yankees.
This man with serious character issues used to bed Leann Tweeden on a nightly basis....I want those damn character issues!
He's not worth more than one prospect.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 02:07 PM
Now, that's simply foolish. Cashman wouldn't trade a 20-year old kid with half a year of experience- who missed the whole second half with a shoulder injury-
You made this up. Hughes did not have a shoulder injury.
-A guy with numbers that look decidedly mediocre away from his cushy home park
-A guy with serious injury questions (9 DL trips in 4 seasons!!!)
-A guy with serious character questions
-A guy who pitches in the National League
He's not worth what it will take to get him. An optimistic guess is Hughes, Cano, and a Sean Henn level prospect.
See...now here is the point that is worth arguing. That package....I would not do. Cano is major league talent- young, already pretty good, and it would hurt the team in the immediate future to deal him. Add Hughes and Henn, and it becomes too expensive in my mind.
Now...I MIGHT substitute Wang for Beckett...because in that scenario you would be replacing a middle of the rotation starter with a potential ace. Your team in the near future would be improved as a whole. I would still hesitate to make that deal, moreso because of what I believe you could deal Hughes for down the road if you decide to move him.
When Pedro Martinez was Beckett's age, their career numbers were quite similar. Pedro had some pretty good looking numbers, but hadn't "broken out".
Um. Pedro won his first CY at age 25. I'm pretty sure he had already broken out. He pitched 241 1/3 innings that year, striking out 305 (11.37/9), walked 67 (2.5/9), and allowed 16 HR (.60/9) with an ERA of 1.90 (and an ERA+ of 221).
Look, Beckett is a good pitcher with what could be a very good future. However, he has significant question marks compared to other good pitchers his age. I think there is a real question as to how effective he would be not only playing outside of his park, but also outside of his division, where because of the unbalanced schedule, he gets to play a lot of his road games in a bunch of other pitcher friendly parks. Bigger than that is the blister issue, both directly and indirectly. Not only is it a recurring problem, but it is a problem that has limited his IP his entire career. The first year he seems to have gotten over them, it would appear that his shoulder started to break down. This is a huge red light in my book.
If the Yankees are going to go down a road where they outbid the offers currently on the table for a pitcher, one would hope that it is for one that doesn't have these issues. Another team with more minor league depth might be able to absorb the risk a little better. The Yankees aren't that team.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 02:10 PM
He's not worth more than one prospect.
You can't be serious.
You are being wayyy too subjective here.
We are talking about a pitcher who:
1. is only 25
2. has not reached free agency yet
3. has already won a WS mvp
4. throws in the upper 90's
5. has a devestating curve
6. is more of a sure thing to become great than Hughes is
Come on man, take off your pinstriped eyeglasses and see things the way any MLB fan would.
scull567
11-21-05, 02:11 PM
I doubt he would.
Have you ever heard the phrase "There's no such thing as a pitching prospect"?
You can't be serious.
You are being wayyy too subjective here.
We are talking about a pitcher who:
1. is only 25
2. has not reached free agency yet
3. has already won a WS mvp
4. throws in the upper 90's
5. has a devestating curve
6. is more of a sure thing to become great than Hughes is
Come on man, take off your pinstriped eyeglasses and see things the way any MLB fan would.
Did you read I Love Wang's post at all?
BTW what does having a WS ring have to do with anything?
If you give me the above year as a 25-year old.......I get excited about the future.
If not for two issues, I'd get excited too, though the K rate is nothing to really write home about. The problem is:
1. Other teams won't do what WGB did. You have to outbid what those other teams would offer to get Beckett.
2. His shoulder trouble this year. The blisters are a concern, but they are a lot different kind of concern than this. He had a very light workload in the minors too. This is a guy who, if the blisters went away, should have had a fresh arm for his age, not a guy who broke down.
Have you ever heard the phrase "There's no such thing as a pitching prospect"?
It doesn't really matter in this context. What does matter is that Hughes has perceived value. The question then becomes, is Beckett the best way to spend that perceived value. Do you go after him simply because he's available, or do you hold onto Hughes to trade him for something better.
This isn't an issue of not wanting to trade prospects. It's an issue of, especially when the Yankees lack depth, not taking undue risk when you do decide to trade a prospect.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 02:16 PM
You can't be serious.
You are being wayyy too subjective here.
We are talking about a pitcher who:
1. is only 25
2. has not reached free agency yet
3. has already won a WS mvp
4. throws in the upper 90's
5. has a devestating curve
6. is more of a sure thing to become great than Hughes is
Come on man, take off your pinstriped eyeglasses and see things the way any MLB fan would.
I'd be surprised if half the people claiming that Hughes is untouchable had even seen him pitch (or Beckett more than twice, for that matter).
If Hughes were in AAA, or even AA, I might understand some fans not wanting to give him up. But the guy is so far from a sure thing it's ridiculous to even think about not doing a Hughes/Beckett trade and it would really make me doubt that person's credibility as a baseball fan.
To put things in perspective as a Sox fan, I would do the proposed Ramirez/Sanchez for Lowell/Beckett deal in a heartbeat. I'd think a bit harder about Ramirez/Lester, but I'd probably do that one too.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 02:19 PM
Did you read I Love Wang's post at all?
BTW what does having a WS ring have to do with anything?
I don't see where I wrote he has a ring...please reread my post...I said he won a WS MVP...slightly different
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-21-05, 02:19 PM
what kind of deal can get us juan perrie?
I don't see where I wrote he has a ring...please reread my post...I said he won a WS MVP...slightly different
Scott Brosius won a WS MVP, does that make him great?
Wang's Groundballs
11-21-05, 02:19 PM
If not for two issues, I'd get excited too, though the K rate is nothing to really write home about. The problem is:
1. Other teams won't do what WGB did. You have to outbid what those other teams would offer to get Beckett.
2. His shoulder trouble this year. The blisters are a concern, but they are a lot different kind of concern than this. He had a very light workload in the minors too. This is a guy who, if the blisters went away, should have had a fresh arm for his age, not a guy who broke down.
Those are my biggest concerns here.
If you offer me Beckett straight up for Hughes I'd probably make the deal. Unfortunately for us, the Marlins already have 2 offers better than that.
Oh, and I added ERA+ (really it's RA+ but just so people don't get confused) and Pitching Runs Above Average:
ERA+ PRAA
132 22
126 18
128 20
what kind of deal can get us juan perrie?
:lol:
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 02:22 PM
This isn't an issue of not wanting to trade prospects. It's an issue of, especially when the Yankees lack depth, not taking undue risk when you do decide to trade a prospect.
I agree with you here, though for some people it does seem to be an issue of not wanting to trade prospects.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-21-05, 02:22 PM
:lol:
I didn't mean to make you laugh. That was a serious question.
Um. Pedro won his first CY at age 25. I'm pretty sure he had already broken out. He pitched 241 1/3 innings that year, striking out 305 (11.37/9), walked 67 (2.5/9), and allowed 16 HR (.60/9) with an ERA of 1.90 (and an ERA+ of 221).
Look, Beckett is a good pitcher with what could be a very good future. However, he has significant question marks compared to other good pitchers his age. I think there is a real question as to how effective he would be not only playing outside of his park, but also outside of his division, where because of the unbalanced schedule, he gets to play a lot of his road games in a bunch of other pitcher friendly parks. Bigger than that is the blister issue, both directly and indirectly. Not only is it a recurring problem, but it is a problem that has limited his IP his entire career. The first year he seems to have gotten over them, it would appear that his shoulder started to break down. This is a huge red light in my book.
If the Yankees are going to go down a road where they outbid the offers currently on the table for a pitcher, one would hope that it is for one that doesn't have these issues. Another team with more minor league depth might be able to absorb the risk a little better. The Yankees aren't that team.
Splitting hairs....Pedro turned 25 a few days after the following season:
13-10, 3.70. 217-189-70-222. A few seasons like that. Beckett turned 25 in May of this year. 5 month difference in age for those two seasons.
Yes, Pedro was 25 in his first Cy Young season, but unless you are going to REALLY split hairs over a 5 month difference in age, it is easily argued that both of them have somewhat similar career paths. Pedro broke out at about the same time and age Beckett is currently.
I didn't mean to make you laugh. That was a serious question.
Oh, :(.
Big Daddy
11-21-05, 02:23 PM
Florida would laugh if the Yankees offered Hughes for Beckett.
highheat2014
11-21-05, 02:24 PM
But he's teh clutch!!111!
Stop making a fool of yourself. We all know you got that line from NoMaas and you're trying to stereotype an entire fanbase when you're nowhere close to the truth. A-Rod rightfully won the MVP; now stop making worthless comments like that and actually contribute something to the discussion.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 02:24 PM
Scott Brosius won a WS MVP, does that make him great?
No that does not make Scott Brosius great by any stretch.
For a 23 yr old pitcher to win a WS MVP is slightly different than a position player getting hot and winning the MVP.
I never said Beckett was great. I was pointing out that he is capable of thriving on the big stage.
Those are my biggest concerns here.
If you offer me Beckett straight up for Hughes I'd probably make the deal. Unfortunately for us, the Marlins already have 2 offers better than that.
Oh, and I added ERA+ (really it's RA+ but just so people don't get confused) and Pitching Runs Above Average:
ERA+ PRAA
132 22
126 18
128 20
Oh, I'd do Hughes straight up for him too, but that's not even a remote possibility.
I also hope that we can stop talking about Pedro Martinez when we talk about Beckett, cause it just aint there.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-21-05, 02:27 PM
Everyone should keep in mind, Beckett pitched in the NL (L)east.
If not for two issues, I'd get excited too, though the K rate is nothing to really write home about. The problem is:
1. Other teams won't do what WGB did. You have to outbid what those other teams would offer to get Beckett.
2. His shoulder trouble this year. The blisters are a concern, but they are a lot different kind of concern than this. He had a very light workload in the minors too. This is a guy who, if the blisters went away, should have had a fresh arm for his age, not a guy who broke down.
I agree. This whole thread, I've simply argued that Josh Beckett possesses amazing potential, and is already at the very least a pretty effective pitcher. I do not advocate mortgaging the future for him, or outbidding other teams. The Ranger offer is, on the surface, amazing for Florida and I wouldn't offer more than that (I don't think the Yankees could anyway).
The injury concerns are legit. My argument is that the man has as good an arm as anyone in the game, and has already shown signs that he can be dominant in stretches. He's pitched well in the spotlight, and would likely not be intimidated by NY. I would certainly want him on the Yanks.
Stop making a fool of yourself. We all know you got that line from NoMaas and you're trying to stereotype an entire fanbase when you're nowhere close to the truth. A-Rod rightfully won the MVP; now stop making worthless comments like that and actually contribute something to the discussion.
Tell a mod if you're so utterly offended by my remarks.
Wang's Groundballs
11-21-05, 02:29 PM
Oh, I'd do Hughes straight up for him too, but that's not even a remote possibility.
I also hope that we can stop talking about Pedro Martinez when we talk about Beckett, cause it just aint there.
I remember Beckett getting a lot of Clemens comps a couple years ago, but I think people will do that with any big fireballer from Texas.
Personally, I'm still waiting for Javy to turn into Pedro 2 for us. ;)
Florida would laugh if the Yankees offered Hughes for Beckett.
And that's why we shouldn't even try. BTW they(the marlins) asked for Wang and Cano for Pierre so I don't think they should be laughing.
Oh, I'd do Hughes straight up for him too, but that's not even a remote possibility.
I also hope that we can stop talking about Pedro Martinez when we talk about Beckett, cause it just aint there.
I used Pedro as an example of a pitcher who elevated to another level at around that time frame in his life and career. By no means would I compare anyone in terms of results to Pedro- you can't expect anyone to elevate to a once in a lifetime pitcher.
My argument was that 25/26 is not an uncommon age for a pitcher to significantly improve.
Here's a much better comparison- Ben Sheets. Bet we can go back in the archives and find people screaming not to trade for him when he was shopped in '03.....
Splitting hairs....Pedro turned 25 a few days after the following season:
There's a reason that the baseball calendar is seasonal based. Pedro was age 25 his first CY season. If you want to split hairs, you're splitting hairs with years of accepted baseball age tracking and we might as well toss it all out.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-21-05, 02:33 PM
And that's why we shouldn't even try. BTW they(the marlins) asked for Wang and Cano for Pierre so I don't think they should be laughing.
Oh so forget that
I used Pedro as an example of a pitcher who elevated to another level at around that time frame in his life and career. By no means would I compare anyone in terms of results to Pedro- you can't expect anyone to elevate to a once in a lifetime pitcher.
My argument was that 25/26 is not an uncommon age for a pitcher to significantly improve.
Here's a much better comparison- Ben Sheets. Bet we can go back in the archives and find people screaming not to trade for him when he was shopped in '03.....
Sheets was capable of actually pitching a whole season. Beckett may well be primed for a breakout. That isn't the problem.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 02:35 PM
Stop making a fool of yourself. We all know you got that line from NoMaas and you're trying to stereotype an entire fanbase when you're nowhere close to the truth. A-Rod rightfully won the MVP; now stop making worthless comments like that and actually contribute something to the discussion.
NoMass gives him permission to use that line.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-21-05, 02:36 PM
I used Pedro as an example of a pitcher who elevated to another level at around that time frame in his life and career. By no means would I compare anyone in terms of results to Pedro- you can't expect anyone to elevate to a once in a lifetime pitcher.
My argument was that 25/26 is not an uncommon age for a pitcher to significantly improve.
Here's a much better comparison- Ben Sheets. Bet we can go back in the archives and find people screaming not to trade for him when he was shopped in '03.....
Good argument, Zito won the Cy Young at 24.
There's a reason that the baseball calendar is seasonal based. Pedro was age 25 his first CY season. If you want to split hairs, you're splitting hairs with years of accepted baseball age tracking and we might as well toss it all out.
Without furthering this fruitless sidebar, all I was comparing was the general age and development stages for baseball players. Pedro went from a good to very good pitcher to a dominating one at an age that was a 5-month difference from Beckett's age this past year. Again, no comparing the man to Pedro- just used Pedro as an example of a player who had his breakout at about the same career time. It doesn't need to be exact- nobody is going to "find it" at exactly the same day- it was a general development spot, and 5 months is certainly acceptable for that.
Anyway.....I found a much better comparison in Ben Sheets anyway. All I am trying to show is that it is not unly not unheard of for top flight talent to all of a sudden break through the ceiling in their mid to late 20's, but that it is fairly common.
I remember Beckett getting a lot of Clemens comps a couple years ago, but I think people will do that with any big fireballer from Texas.
Personally, I'm still waiting for Javy to turn into Pedro 2 for us. ;)
Beckett's most similar through age 25:
# Lynn McGlothen (979)
# Jack McDowell (972)
# Jim Lonborg (972)
# Joel Pineiro (971)
# Hank Gastright (970)
# Rick Reuschel (969)
# Bill Stafford (969)
# Bob Knepper (965)
# Rick Rhoden (965)
# John Denny (965)
highheat2014
11-21-05, 02:37 PM
Tell a mod if you're so utterly offended by my remarks.
I'm not offended in the least; it's just you take a comment off a website and think it's so funny, which it isn't, especially considering it might've been used a million times already. It's absolutely worthless to the discussion about whether the Yankees should acquire Josh Beckett, and at what price.
I'm not offended in the least; it's just you take a comment off a website and think it's so funny, which it isn't, especially considering it might've been used a million times already. It's absolutely worthless to the discussion about whether the Yankees should acquire Josh Beckett, and at what price.
Tell a mod.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 02:38 PM
what kind of deal can get us juan perrie?
The kind of deal you avoid like the avian flu.
Sheets was capable of actually pitching a whole season. Beckett may well be primed for a breakout. That isn't the problem.
Again, agreed. We seem to be arguing some similar and some separate points. I fully agree that Beckett is indeed a risky proposition. But I am arguing (and you agree with me, it seems) that Josh Beckett certainly has the ability to improve significantly on the pitcher he currently is. I was arguing with those in this thread who claim he's not that good now, and won't be that good in the future.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-21-05, 02:39 PM
The kind of deal you avoid like the avian flu.
Yeah, they want Wang and Cano
Yeah, they want Wang and Cano
Imagine what they're gonna ask for Beckett.
Anyway.....I found a much better comparison in Ben Sheets anyway. All I am trying to show is that it is not unly not unheard of for top flight talent to all of a sudden break through the ceiling in their mid to late 20's, but that it is fairly common.
There's no comparision to Sheets. Sheets had just pitched 216, 220, and 237 innings ages 23 through 25.
In order to take advantage of said potential breakout, Beckett actually has to be on the mound. I don't think there's any indication that he will be.
The statistical arguments are more of a secondary issue dealing with what the real value of Beckett is relative to what other teams are offering and what the Yankees should offer.
The health concerns are more up front to me, and when you are the Yankees and you don't have much to trade, you better be as sure as you can be in baseball that you are making the right move.
Again, agreed. We seem to be arguing some similar and some separate points. I fully agree that Beckett is indeed a risky proposition. But I am arguing (and you agree with me, it seems) that Josh Beckett certainly has the ability to improve significantly on the pitcher he currently is. I was arguing with those in this thread who claim he's not that good now, and won't be that good in the future.
Sure, he could break out. I'm not sure I think his chances to do so are nearly as high as you do.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-21-05, 02:45 PM
There's no comparision to Sheets. Sheets had just pitched 216, 220, and 237 innings ages 23 through 25.
In order to take advantage of said potential breakout, Beckett actually has to be on the mound. I don't think there's any indication that he will be.
The statistical arguments are more of a secondary issue dealing with what the real value of Beckett is relative to what other teams are offering and what the Yankees should offer.
The health concerns are more up front to me, and when you are the Yankees and you don't have much to trade, you better be as sure as you can be in baseball that you are making the right move.
Since we are on the topic young pitchers. If Zito and Beckett was on the table, I would take Zito over Beckett
Kulish29
11-21-05, 02:45 PM
I'm not offended in the least; it's just you take a comment off a website and think it's so funny, which it isn't, especially considering it might've been used a million times already. It's absolutely worthless to the discussion about whether the Yankees should acquire Josh Beckett, and at what price.
Are you a mod? Who are you to tell a person what and what not to post?
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 02:46 PM
I just have such a big feeling we are going to make a monster trade this offseason....I just feel it guys.
This may be it, who knows?
There is no way we can go into the season without any significant improvements, no chance...
Imagine what they're gonna ask for Beckett.
Probably Wang, Cano, Hughes, and a 2nd tier prospect. That could probably top Blalock and Danks. But thats way too much for Beckett.
To sum up my thoughts on Josh Beckett and this discussion-
I believe Josh Beckett to be immensely talented and possessing the ability to be one of the top pitchers in the whole sport.
He has shown the propensity to become injured quite often. I do see this as a red flag.
I believe the offers the Marlins reportedly have on the table from the Rangers and Red Sox can absolutely not be matched by the Yankees. If they do, it would be with players I would certainly not deal.
So.....I'd love to add Beckett to the Yankees, but at a reasonable cost. If it were two prospects- whether it be Duncan and Hughes or any combination of two Yankee prospects- I would certainly do it. I like prospects, but the chance that Josh Beckett develops into a premier pitcher is certainly greater than a guy like Hughes does, and if you can trade for a #1 starter in his 20's than you can afford to deal an offensive prospect. That won't happen, though, since the Marlins can get more.
My whole arguments in this discussion have been to display my belief that the guy is extremely gifted and has a decent chance of becoming great if he could stay healthy.
Probably Wang, Cano, Hughes, and a 2nd tier prospect. That could probably top Blalock and Danks. But thats way too much for Beckett.
Exactly.
I like prospects, but the chance that Josh Beckett develops into a premier pitcher is certainly greater than a guy like Hughes does, and if you can trade for a #1 starter in his 20's than you can afford to deal an offensive prospect. That won't happen, though, since the Marlins can get more.
This is the big problem. If the Yankees are willing to trade Hughes and Duncan, then it shouldn't be for Beckett. I'm not trying to argue that you should hold onto prospects no matter what, just that, if you are willing to part with them for a guy you admit has red flags just because he suddenly becomes available, it's time to look around for a better deal.
I just have such a big feeling we are going to make a monster trade this offseason....I just feel it guys.
This may be it, who knows?
There is no way we can go into the season without any significant improvements, no chance...
There's no way we're in the running for Beckett.
BTW did you mean monster trade or FA signing?
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 02:55 PM
There's no way we're in the running for Beckett.
BTW did you mean monster trade or FA signing?
Monster trade (one that comes out of nowhere like the ARod deal).
No monster FA signings available in this poor, poor offseason.
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 02:56 PM
I Love Wang makes some excellent points and I agree with him wholeheartedly. Beckett is a bust waiting to happen.
Well this thread has exploded into a debate about the prospect worth of Beckett. My original hope was that we could come up with some creative ideas to acquire helpful players without breaking the minor league bank. What do you guys think about Mota, Delgado, LoDuca, Villone and the other potential dealable parts?
scull567
11-21-05, 02:57 PM
I Love Wang makes some excellent points and I agree with him wholeheartedly. Beckett is a bust waiting to happen.
?? I don't believe he said that.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 02:57 PM
I just have such a big feeling we are going to make a monster trade this offseason....I just feel it guys.
This may be it, who knows?
There is no way we can go into the season without any significant improvements, no chance...
With the way things are going right now and with Cashman's new 'power'. I dont see any big significant thing happening.
I see small moves here or there, but nothing really huge.
highheat2014
11-21-05, 03:01 PM
Are you a mod? Who are you to tell a person what and what not to post?
All I'm saying is what he said is a) unoriginal, b) a baseless stereotype, and c) worthless to the discussion? And regarding what Sam said, why would I need to tell a mod? I'm not going to "tell" on you, I'm just saying those comments are stupid and utterly worthless.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 03:01 PM
With the way things are going right now and with Cashman's new 'power'. I dont see any big significant thing happening.
I see small moves here or there, but nothing really huge.
For instance, who would have though that Beckett would become available this offseason?
At any point in the offseason, stars will be made available, and hopefully we can reep the benefits...
Well this thread has exploded into a debate about the prospect worth of Beckett. My original hope was that we could come up with some creative ideas to acquire helpful players without breaking the minor league bank. What do you guys think about Mota, Delgado, LoDuca, Villone and the other potential dealable parts?
I am a little shaky on Mota. He reminds me a bit of Benitez- the type of guy who seems to try a little too hard in big spots and gets whacked around when he does. I like the arm, but injury questions with him as well.
I love Delgado, I just don't see how he fits. Why give up value to improve something that isn't a weakness? And at that salary, if he gets hurt or goes downhill you are crippled a bit.
I like Loduca a little bit, but you'd have to deal Posada and I don't see that happening. Loduca's also moving towards his mid-30's as a catcher.....
Villone? He'd be functional in the pen, but I don't see giving up much to get a guy like him.
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 03:04 PM
?? I don't believe he said that.
I know. I did.
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 03:05 PM
I am a little shaky on Mota. He reminds me a bit of Benitez- the type of guy who seems to try a little too hard in big spots and gets whacked around when he does. I like the arm, but injury questions with him as well.
I love Delgado, I just don't see how he fits. Why give up value to improve something that isn't a weakness? And at that salary, if he gets hurt or goes downhill you are crippled a bit.
I like Loduca a little bit, but you'd have to deal Posada and I don't see that happening. Loduca's also moving towards his mid-30's as a catcher.....
Villone? He'd be functional in the pen, but I don't see giving up much to get a guy like him.
I wouldn't mind acquiring Delgado and then just have Giambi DH. Our offense does need help, contrary to popular belief.
Of course, Delgado is not going to come cheap and the chances of the Yankees getting him are slim to none.
Well this thread has exploded into a debate about the prospect worth of Beckett. My original hope was that we could come up with some creative ideas to acquire helpful players without breaking the minor league bank. What do you guys think about Mota, Delgado, LoDuca, Villone and the other potential dealable parts?
The Yankees don't have a lot of roster flexibility, so I'm not sure where Mota and Villone fit in until you start dumping other guys. For the two spots they still have in the pen, Mota and Villone aren't on my list. This isn't to say that they aren't useful pitchers, just that they have roles that the Yankees have already filled.
There's a whole thread about Delgado.
Someone will trade for Lo Duca to start. The problem is, he is useless in the second half year after year, much more so than Posada ever has been. I'll pass.
Well this thread has exploded into a debate about the prospect worth of Beckett. My original hope was that we could come up with some creative ideas to acquire helpful players without breaking the minor league bank. What do you guys think about Mota, Delgado, LoDuca, Villone and the other potential dealable parts?
Here's what I think, FWIW:
Offer Pavano, Duncan, & Cabrera for Delgado. Sign Washburn to replace Pavano in the rotation. Trade Delgado and cash to the White Sox for Rowand & Marte.
Fabien Brandy
11-21-05, 03:09 PM
Some see Beckett's lack of innings compared to a Ben Sheets as a point in his favor. Javy Vazquez got worked like a dog, whereas Beckett has been spared due to non-serious injuries. Now that he's more physically mature that lack of wear on his shoulder could be the key to his future.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 03:11 PM
I wouldn't mind acquiring Delgado and then just have Giambi DH. Our offense does need help, contrary to popular belief.
Of course, Delgado is not going to come cheap and the chances of the Yankees getting him are slim to none.
Delgado and Giambi are virtually the same player - and personally I think Jason is more valuable with his higher obp.
I don't really like the idea of having two "first baseman" who have the range of my grandma.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-21-05, 03:12 PM
I wouldn't mind acquiring Delgado and then just have Giambi DH. Our offense does need help, contrary to popular belief.
Of course, Delgado is not going to come cheap and the chances of the Yankees getting him are slim to none.
I agree that the Yankees offense needs help, not as much help as other teams, but they do need more offensive depth. And by definition, if the Marlins are as screwed financially as they seem to be now, it's a fire sale and you don't have to give up as much to get players, especially if the Yankees take on Delgado's contract. If the Giles thing falls through, then I think the Yankees are stuck with a zero bat/good defense option at center in 2006, and they'll need to make it up somewhere else, and considering the weak free agent market this year, Delgado is the most readily available, impact bat, who has a position waiting for him with the team.
How can the Yanks NOT benefit from the Marlins firesale?
edit: ok nevermind that joke does not translate well into text. Its all about the tone.
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 03:14 PM
Delgado and Giambi are virtually the same player - and personally I think Jason is more valuable with his higher obp.
I don't really like the idea of having two "first baseman" who have the range of my grandma.
Isn't Delgado slightly better than Giambi with the glove, though? Not a big improvement, but I like his bat and he is an upgrade (as small as it may be) at first.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 03:16 PM
Isn't Delgado slightly better than Giambi with the glove, though? Not a big improvement, but I like his bat and he is an upgrade (as small as it may be) at first.
Wow what a lineup that would be with Delgado added on....a video game lineup...just nuts!
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 03:16 PM
I agree that the Yankees offense needs help, not as much help as other teams, but they do need more offensive depth. And by definition, if the Marlins are as screwed financially as they seem to be now, it's a fire sale and you don't have to give up as much to get players, especially if the Yankees take on Delgado's contract. If the Giles thing falls through, then I think the Yankees are stuck with a zero bat/good defense option at center in 2006, and they'll need to make it up somewhere else, and considering the weak free agent market this year, Delgado is the most readily available, impact bat, who has a position waiting for him with the team.
The problem is that I can see a team that's really in need of a 1st basemen (the Mets and Red Sox come to mind) offering much more than the Yankees for Delgado. I know it's a firesale, but I would think that the Marlins would try to milk Delgado for all he's worth to these 2 teams.
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 03:17 PM
Wow what a lineup that would be with Delgado added on....a video game lineup...just nuts!
I liked what I saw from him here with the Marlins. He missed some time and still put up very solid numbers. He was the best 1st basemen not named Pujols or Lee in the NL.
ShaneTravis
11-21-05, 03:21 PM
I liked what I saw from him here with the Marlins. He missed some time and still put up very solid numbers. He was the best 1st basemen not named Pujols or Lee in the NL.
2005 .301 .399 .582 .981 plus 33 homers 115 rbi's
The guy was solid to say the least.
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 03:25 PM
2005 .301 .399 .582 .981 plus 33 homers 115 rbi's
The guy was solid to say the least.
Indeed. And the guys in front of him weren't getting on base too much either. He would be a GREAT addition.
I wonder if their closer (his name escapes me right now, dammit) will be available too? He did a fantastic job last season, and I wouldn't mind an extra arm in the BP.
THEBOSS84
11-21-05, 03:26 PM
Indeed. And the guys in front of him weren't getting on base too much either. He would be a GREAT addition.
I wonder if their closer (his name escapes me right now, dammit) will be available too? He did a fantastic job last season, and I wouldn't mind an extra arm in the BP.
Todd Jones
Delgado's a fabulous player...but the argument many have made against Beckett is even stronger against Delgado- if you are going to deal what you need to deal to get Delgado, why not address pressing needs first?
The Yankee lineup is going to be good to very good- almost by default since they have a bunch of spectacular bats at the top. Does it need to become a little more circular? Sure, it does.
But they have more pressing needs- a major league caliber centerfielder, a few dependeable arms in the pen, etc. I'd let someone else pay for Delgado- you don't need to be involved in every big name that becomes available, especially when that player would not fill a hole.
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 03:27 PM
Todd Jones
THANK YOU. Gah, I feel stupid.
True Yankee-ette13
11-21-05, 03:29 PM
Delgado's a fabulous player...but the argument many have made against Beckett is even stronger against Delgado- if you are going to deal what you need to deal to get Delgado, why not address pressing needs first?
The Yankee lineup is going to be good to very good- almost by default since they have a bunch of spectacular bats at the top. Does it need to become a little more circular? Sure, it does.
But they have more pressing needs- a major league caliber centerfielder, a few dependeable arms in the pen, etc. I'd let someone else pay for Delgado- you don't need to be involved in every big name that becomes available, especially when that player would not fill a hole.
I definitely don't feel it's a priority, but it would be a nice addition if we're talking offense (which was dowright PUTRID at times last season and during the post-season). I would address those needs you mentioned first, but I would definitely scoop Delgado up if by a miracle of God he was still available.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 03:29 PM
For instance, who would have though that Beckett would become available this offseason?
At any point in the offseason, stars will be made available, and hopefully we can reep the benefits...
Florida is in fire sale mode at this point because the owner is pissed that he cant get a new stadium/stadium of their own.
Other than them, there's no other team that seems to want to get rid of any players teams would want.
All of the discussion of trading for Beckett, IMO, is pointless because it looks like he is going to end up in Texas. And I couldnt be happier about that.
Delgado's a fabulous player...but the argument many have made against Beckett is even stronger against Delgado- if you are going to deal what you need to deal to get Delgado, why not address pressing needs first?
The Yankee lineup is going to be good to very good- almost by default since they have a bunch of spectacular bats at the top. Does it need to become a little more circular? Sure, it does.
But they have more pressing needs- a major league caliber centerfielder, a few dependeable arms in the pen, etc. I'd let someone else pay for Delgado- you don't need to be involved in every big name that becomes available, especially when that player would not fill a hole.
Pretty much. At least Giles is an offensive force that fills one of our holes.
ShaneTravis
11-21-05, 03:33 PM
Indeed. And the guys in front of him weren't getting on base too much either. He would be a GREAT addition.
I wonder if their closer (his name escapes me right now, dammit) will be available too? He did a fantastic job last season, and I wouldn't mind an extra arm in the BP.
I don't see this deal going down for the Yanks. But, I've said it in other posts....Add Carlos as DH and keep Bubba in center. A lineup that would have Jorge Posada bat 8th..... Yikes watch out the rest of the league.
The Yanks don't have the pieces to start trading, since all teams will mention Wang,Cano in any deal. And for any team to give anything more than middle prospects to a Florida team who is desperate to unload any and all contracts...well, shame on them. Carlos is owed 16 million a year for the next three years, that right there limits their trading partners to a handful.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 03:34 PM
All of the discussion of trading for Beckett, IMO, is pointless because it looks like he is going to end up in Texas. And I couldnt be happier about that.
Not according to ESPN:
Rangers aren't top contender to land Beckett (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2232211)
ShaneTravis
11-21-05, 03:36 PM
All of the discussion of trading for Beckett, IMO, is pointless because it looks like he is going to end up in Texas. And I couldnt be happier about that.
Contrary to numerous reports, the Texas Rangers aren't the leading contender to land Marlins starter Josh Beckett in a package deal with third baseman Mike Lowell.
Josh Beckett
Starting Pitcher
Florida Marlins
Profile
2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM W L BB K ERA
29 15 8 58 166 3.38
According to baseball officials who have been in contact with Florida, the Marlins have two other potential deals -- with Boston and an unnamed "mystery" team -- that team officials find more appealing than Texas' offer of third baseman Hank Blalock and one of the Rangers' two top pitching prospects, either Thomas Diamond or John Danks.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2232211
Kulish29
11-21-05, 03:41 PM
Not according to ESPN:
Rangers aren't top contender to land Beckett (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2232211)
Contrary to numerous reports, the Texas Rangers aren't the leading contender to land Marlins starter Josh Beckett in a package deal with third baseman Mike Lowell.
Josh Beckett
Starting Pitcher
Florida Marlins
Profile
2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM W L BB K ERA
29 15 8 58 166 3.38
According to baseball officials who have been in contact with Florida, the Marlins have two other potential deals -- with Boston and an unnamed "mystery" team -- that team officials find more appealing than Texas' offer of third baseman Hank Blalock and one of the Rangers' two top pitching prospects, either Thomas Diamond or John Danks.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2232211
I still say he ends up in Texas. Although it would be interesting to see who the 'mystery team' is.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-21-05, 03:43 PM
Not according to ESPN:
Rangers aren't top contender to land Beckett (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2232211)
Oh my goodness, ESPN discounting a competitor to the Red Sox in a big trade when everyone else is reporting the deal with Texas is close...I'm astonished... :giveup:
Kulish29
11-21-05, 03:45 PM
Marlins, Rangers set deadline for deal (http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051121&content_id=1271000&vkey=news_fla&fext=.jsp&c_id=fla)
A source familiar with the negotiations says Rangers executives worked diligently on Sunday, trying to agree on a key Minor League prospect believed to be the holdup in getting the trade completed.
....
The two clubs set a 48-hour deadline Sunday to work out a deal before Tuesday. It's unclear if that deadline is set in stone. One reason for the delay on Sunday was that Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria, who is in Europe, was not easily accessible. This is a unique trade because it is being negotiated by the owners of both clubs.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 03:52 PM
Oh my goodness, ESPN discounting a competitor to the Red Sox in a big trade when everyone else is reporting the deal with Texas is close...I'm astonished... :giveup:
It does ESPN or the Red Sox no service to claim they are the frontrunners (and then claiming there is another team involved) if they truely aren't.
I still say he ends up in Texas. Although it would be interesting to see who the 'mystery team' is.
They say they think its the Dodgers.
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