View Full Version : How can the Yanks benefit from the Marlins firesale?
Where are the character issues coming from? He does have a big ego- but he's reportedly pretty well-liked and respected in the clubhouse.
I want a kid like Beckett to have an ego. The opposite we've seen way too much- guys doubting their abilities. Clemens was a humongous ego as a kid in Boston- he turned into a pretty decent pitcher.
.
"A Year In The Life Of Josh Beckett
Last October, Dan Le Batard shared the following story about Josh Beckett:
Quote:
Josh Beckett's overt arrogance has resulted in teammate Mike Mordecai angrily dumping a basket of baseball in Beckett's locker after Beckett didn't help pick up balls after batting practice.
This past June, the Sun Sentinel News ran a story that included the following:
Quote:
Still steamed over getting placed on the disabled list immediately after a blister forced him out of Sunday's game, Beckett used the terms "jackass" and "idiot" to describe a team trainer. [Manager] McKeon didn't find it amusing
And, now, in a Palm Beach Post story we have more news on Beckett:
Quote:
After coming out of a start against the Braves in September, Beckett was stewing over a hit that had been credited to Rafael Furcal.
If Furcal had reached on an error, Beckett would have gotten a quality start. Sitting in the dugout, Beckett demanded Rosenthal call the press box — during the game — and persuade the official scorer to change the call to an error. (Never mind how many plays shortstop Alex Gonzalez had made for Beckett all year.)
Rosenthal refused, so Beckett called the press box himself, then bad-mouthed the pitching coach to his teammates.
Now, I know that Beckett is just a 24 year old kid - and kids do stupid things out of a lack of maturity. Still, someone close to Beckett has to tell him that pitchers who have yet to win 10 games in a big league season should be seen and not heard. Yes, he was a post-season hero in 2003 and carried the Marlins to a ring. But, he's just 26-26 in the big leagues since arriving in 2001 and that's not all that and a box of Cracker Jacks.
He needs a wake up call, and quick. Marlins, are you listening?"
__________________
Steve, Forum Admin
It does ESPN or the Red Sox no service to claim they are the frontrunners (and then claiming there is another team involved) if they truely aren't.
It's jsut a reflex on the part of espn
"Josh Beckett's overt arrogance has resulted in teammate Mike Mordecai angrily dumping a basket of baseball in Beckett's locker after Beckett didn't help pick up balls after batting practice.
I found this amusing. :lol: :lol:
Stupid Flanders
11-21-05, 05:03 PM
I found this amusing. :lol: :lol:
I'm just surprised to learn that Arizona sent said bag of baseballs to Florida.
I mean after all, they acquired it for a 21 game winner.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 06:25 PM
Well we can end the Beckett discussion. Beckett and Lowell dealt to the Sox for H. Ramirez, A. Sanchez and one other mLer.
Stupid Flanders
11-21-05, 06:29 PM
Well we can end the Beckett discussion. Beckett and Lowell dealt to the Sox for H. Ramirez, A. Sanchez and one other mLer.
Uh, no.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051121&content_id=1271198&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp
BRNXBMRS
11-21-05, 06:33 PM
Espn just reported it.
Stupid Flanders
11-21-05, 06:34 PM
Espn just reported it.
Not as a done deal.
This sounded about as confirmed as the Blalock trade
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2232211
Well we can end the Beckett discussion. Beckett and Lowell dealt to the Sox for H. Ramirez, A. Sanchez and one other mLer.
Come on, Florida can't do any better than Ramirez and Sanchez. For crying out load, they are asking for Wang and Cano for Pierre. :-po'd-:
goin for 27
11-21-05, 06:43 PM
Well we can end the Beckett discussion. Beckett and Lowell dealt to the Sox for H. Ramirez, A. Sanchez and one other mLer.
If true, that would be a tremendous coup for the Red Sox. Too good to be true that the Sox fade, this gets the juices flowing for some NYY signings!
Stupid Flanders
11-21-05, 06:45 PM
Come on, Florida can't do any better than Ramirez and Sanchez. For crying out load, they are asking for Wang and Cano for Pierre. :-po'd-:Yankee tax
Yankee tax
If this deal goes down, Selig better start looking into this instead of worrying about how much Cashman makes. :mad:
Depends on who the third player is, but as I think I noted earlier, the Sox had the depth in the upper minors where this is less of a risk than it would be otherwise.
nyg02005
11-21-05, 06:47 PM
I wonder how girardi is feeling right now. As it turned out, the devil rays will have a better team that the marlins for the coming season.
Depends on who the third player is, but as I think I noted earlier, the Sox had the depth in the upper minors where this is less of a risk than it would be otherwise.
It better be Lester or Hanson (but I don't think the Red Sox can trade him right now if they wanted to).
It better be Lester or Hanson (but I don't think the Red Sox can trade him right now if they wanted to).
It's a player who, in the minds of the Marlins, makes up the difference for taking Sanchez instead of Lester.
I've heard Shoppach might be the guy pending a Lo Duca trade. If they can't move Lo Duca, the Marlins would take someone else off a list of players like that.
Munson's 'Stash
11-21-05, 06:57 PM
According to Gammons/ESPN, the PTBNL is not currently on the Red Sox 40 man roster, which Lester, Shoppach, and Hansen are (and they couldn't trade Hansen anyway). Don't the Fish have their own C prospect who they're high on?
It is probably a low minors B prospect, which is completely insignificant.
Also, as a point of information, Delgado had a +12 UZR in '04 according to some numbers mgl leaked. He's surprisingly good around the bag, and definitely better than Giambi.
nyg02005
11-21-05, 06:57 PM
we can not even get rowand and the sox got beckett.
Munson's 'Stash
11-21-05, 07:00 PM
we can not even get rowand and the sox got beckett.
Have you seen the Yankee farm system lately?
we can not even get rowand and the sox got beckett.
This reflects the state of the upper part of the two minor league systems. Ramirez will start for the Marlins. The Y's have nothing like him to offer, unless it is Cano.
According to Gammons/ESPN, the PTBNL is not currently on the Red Sox 40 man roster, which Lester, Shoppach, and Hansen are (and they couldn't trade Hansen anyway). Don't the Fish have their own C prospect who they're high on?
It is probably a low minors B prospect, which is completely insignificant.
Also, as a point of information, Delgado had a +12 UZR in '04 according to some numbers mgl leaked. He's surprisingly good around the bag, and definitely better than Giambi.
I will be pissed if this deal goes down. The Red Sox got Beckett for their 4th best pitching prospect (assuming Papelbon, Lester, and Hanson are above Sanchez) and their best positional prospect who didn't have a great year in AA.
nyg02005
11-21-05, 07:06 PM
Have you seen the Yankee farm system lately?
The problem with the yankess this offseason is that they are not willing to trade cano or wang even for a young player. The FA market is too thin for the yankees needs (CF, RP) but has some infielders that are good(in the case of cano) and some good SP(in the case of wang).
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 07:11 PM
Uh, no.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051121&content_id=1271198&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp
Uh, from that link:
Instead, the two popular Marlins reportedly will be headed to Boston.
The deal is done pending physicals.
So it wasn't Theo after all, just the Yankee tax. Hopefully Cash doesn't make any stupid moves in retaliation to this.
So it wasn't Theo after all, just the Yankee tax. Hopefully Cash doesn't make any stupid moves in retaliation to this.
I'm sure Cashman will keep his cool, but I'm worried about Steinbrenner. He might go crazy. He better not go out and do a Cano & Wang for Pierre trade. Or a Cano & Wang for Hunter trade.
Uh, no.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051121&content_id=1271198&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp
I used to be a big fan of Josh Beckett. I loved watching him pitch, but now I wish he crashes and burns. I hate you Josh Beckett. Hughes will become 10 times the pitcher that you are. :-po'd-:
StatenIslandYankee
11-21-05, 07:23 PM
Can we get Willis :D
So basically, they appear to be haggling over how much cash Florida sends and, in turn, what third player they get back. More cash, better player, obviously.
I'm sure Cashman will keep his cool, but I'm worried about Steinbrenner. He might go crazy. He better not go out and do a Cano & Wang for Pierre trade. Or a Cano & Wang for Hunter trade.
Poor George doesn't realize this is good for the Yankees.
So basically, they appear to be haggling over how much cash Florida sends and, in turn, what third player they get back. More cash, better player, obviously.
WTF!?!?! Florida sends Cash and only gets Ramirez and Sanchez for Beckett. What kind of deal is that?
WTF!?!?! Florida sends Cash and only gets Ramirez and Sanchez for Beckett. What kind of deal is that?
No, what third player they get back. The third player already exists to make up the difference between Sanchez and Lester. How good he is after that seems to still be a negotiating point coupled to Florida sending some cash.
Big Daddy
11-21-05, 09:15 PM
I'm sure Cashman will keep his cool, but I'm worried about Steinbrenner. He might go crazy. He better not go out and do a Cano & Wang for Pierre trade. Or a Cano & Wang for Hunter trade.
I can see a Cano and Wang for Hunter trade and maybe throw an a** load of money at Furcal to get him to play second as a response. If that happens, it wouldn't be the worse thing in the world.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-21-05, 09:20 PM
So it wasn't Theo after all, just the Yankee tax. Hopefully Cash doesn't make any stupid moves in retaliation to this.
The stupidest retaliation move won't be from Cashman. Sadly, you can see this one coming from miles away, watch the Yankees sign Damon. Giles will go back to SD, Boston snags the 2003 World Series MVP in Beckett, Ryan refuses to sign with the Yankees and George will want to somehow respond to the Sox move. He's going to be told that the Yankees only have Tike Redman or Milton Bradley as options for center and he's going to decide that the best way to get back at Boston is to sign their original "idiot". Boras must have been high fiving the Marlins' front office staff when they made this trade, George is going to do something stupid, you can feel it.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 09:25 PM
Since we are on the topic young pitchers. If Zito and Beckett was on the table, I would take Zito over Beckett
I'm not that high on Zito, and I still agree. He's pitched in the AL, and he's been far more durable. But, judging by what Beane extracted for Mark Mulder, I fear dealing for Zito, because he'll likely cost a king's ransom. If Mulder is a fair comparison, I'm guessing Wang, Duncan, and Small. If we negotiate as well as Jon Schuerholz did for Tim Hudson, then more like Henn, Proctor, and Kevin Thompson. The second deal I would do it an amount of time faster than a second. The first, I probably wouldn't.
I can see a Cano and Wang for Hunter trade and maybe throw an a** load of money at Furcal to get him to play second as a response. If that happens, it wouldn't be the worse thing in the world.
It would be close though.
jimmykey2
11-21-05, 09:43 PM
It would be close though.
That might be the smartest thing I've read all night. Torri Hunter isn't worth Cano or Wang. As for Furcal, I'm really not into trying guys out at positions they've never player before AFTER signing them to long-term deals.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 09:43 PM
I really, really hope that Cashman is fooling me and really, really has a master plan and is not asleep at the wheel while teams in his division strengthen their pitching by giving up very little; teams with no "official" GM, for chrissakes and who have been VERY busy looking to fill that spot.
Do the Yanks counter this winter with some career NL 6.70 ERA who he thinks shows "promise" (because he can't work anything else out via trade or free agency) or does he impress us with stellar moves? I hope Cashman passes the test.
jimmykey2
11-21-05, 09:46 PM
I'm not that high on Zito, and I still agree. He's pitched in the AL, and he's been far more durable. But, judging by what Beane extracted for Mark Mulder, I fear dealing for Zito, because he'll likely cost a king's ransom. If Mulder is a fair comparison, I'm guessing Wang, Duncan, and Small. If we negotiate as well as Jon Schuerholz did for Tim Hudson, then more like Henn, Proctor, and Kevin Thompson. The second deal I would do it an amount of time faster than a second. The first, I probably wouldn't.
You wouldn't trade those guys for Barry Zito? I'd do that deal in a second. Wang is great, but he has a history of shoulder problems. I'm not high on Duncan at all and would like to flip him immediately for a top player. BTW, Torii Hunter isn't a top player. Zito, Beckett, etc. are...
NewEraYanks2527
11-21-05, 09:47 PM
Well since it looks like Beckett is going so cheap, really Womack and a bag of bats for Pierre seems to all but be a matter of pulling the trigger. Then simply we trade Henn for Delgado and the lineup is set. Seriously Florida, what are you thinking?
noneckwilliams
11-21-05, 09:53 PM
I really, really hope that Cashman is fooling me and really, really has a master plan and is not asleep at the wheel while teams in his division strengthen their pitching by giving up very little.
Do the Yanks counter this winter with some career NL 6.70 ERA who he thinks shows "promise" (because he can't work anything else out via trade or free agency) or does he impress? I hope Cashman passes the test.
The last thing the Yankees should do is respond to the RS possible acquisition of Beckett. Beckett is not Roger Clemens or Pedro Martinez or even Curt Schilling. He's never pitched 200 innings for cripe's sake. The Yankees are playing their hand well this offseason by re-signing Matsui and exploring lots of options for upgrading the bullpen and the OF. I don't believe they've been in the market for a starter and they shouldn't be now just because the RS acquired Beckett.
I really, really hope that Cashman is fooling me and really, really has a master plan and is not asleep at the wheel while teams in his division strengthen their pitching by giving up very little.
Regardless of your impressions of Ramirez and Sanchez/Lester (as the Palm Beach Post indicates that the deal is not done yet and they Marlins still want Lester), they are generally perceived as not only good prospects, but, at least, top 50 prospects. In addition, one of them fills an immediate need, as the Marlins starting shortstop is a free agent. In addition, the Red Sox took on an albatross contract. I'm not seeing how that's 'nothing'. I'm not a big Hanley fan, but I still understand that others disagree.
noneckwilliams
11-21-05, 09:57 PM
Regardless of your impressions of Ramirez and Sanchez/Lester (as the Palm Beach Post indicates that the deal is not done yet and they Marlins still want Lester), they are generally perceived as not only good prospects, but, at least, top 50 prospects. In addition, one of them fills an immediate need, as the Marlins starting shortstop is a free agent. In addition, the Red Sox took on an albatross contract. I'm not seeing how that's 'nothing'. I'm not a big Hanley fan, but I still understand that others disagree.
Seems to me the RS have deviated from their long range plans in an effort to get some positive news going on Yawkey Way. Beckett is far from a sure thing.
ryanthe13th
11-21-05, 09:59 PM
The Yankees front office really needs to stop dragging ass.
NelsonMuntz
11-21-05, 09:59 PM
I really, really hope that Cashman is fooling me and really, really has a master plan and is not asleep at the wheel while teams in his division strengthen their pitching by giving up very little; teams with no "official" GM, for chrissakes and who have been VERY busy looking to fill that spot.
I'm with you Dooley. So far this offseason has been nothing but worrisome.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 09:59 PM
The last thing the Yankees should do is respond to the RS possible acquisition of Beckett. Beckett is not Roger Clemens or Pedro Martinez or even Curt Schilling. He's never pitched 200 innings for cripe's sake. The Yankees are playing their hand well this offseason by re-signing Matsui and exploring lots of options for upgrading the bullpen and the OF. I don't believe they've been in the market for a starter and they shouldn't be now just because the RS acquired Beckett.
Beckett has the potential to be an ace. A very dominating ace. I wouldn't mind taking chances like that with George's money. It's not mine.
As a matter of fact I'm hoping the Yanks go after AJ. Not in retaliation for what the Sox did, but to show some balls picking up someone with a live arm. If he fails, he fails. But, with the right adjustment he too can be a dominating ace-type pitcher.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 10:00 PM
I will be pissed if this deal goes down. The Red Sox got Beckett for their 4th best pitching prospect (assuming Papelbon, Lester, and Hanson are above Sanchez) and their best positional prospect who didn't have a great year in AA.
I wouldn't say Papelbon or Hanson are better pitching prospects than Sanchez. Certainly not from a ceiling standpoint. Sanchez is 2 years ahead of where Papelbon was. Sanchez will probably start next year in AAA, at age 22. Papelbon started in AAA last year, and age 24. And Hanson is a reliever. Lester was, and is still, the Sox best pitching prospect, and they smartly kept him. And Sanchez was closer to him than people think. However, if Hanley Ramirez is the Marlins' starting SS next year, people better not be expecting much offense out of him. He's going to remind a lot of people of Rey-Rey Ordonez. Super glove, lousy bat.
I think that, considering the perceived value of Beckett, the Sox did well. I still think he's overrated, and I would be very surprised if he posted an ERA under 4 next year. In Marlins' home games last year, there were 1103k's, compared to 940 on the road. Thats 17% more strikeouts at home than on the road. Fenway was very neutral for k's, however: 1010 at home to 993 on the road. Thats less than 2% more, which could be simply statistical variance. He's also going from a park that last year was 16% more likely to avoid XBHs to one that was 13% more likely to produce them. Not to mention going from the NL East to the AL East.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 10:01 PM
Regardless of your impressions of Ramirez and Sanchez/Lester (as the Palm Beach Post indicates that the deal is not done yet and they Marlins still want Lester), they are generally perceived as not only good prospects, but, at least, top 50 prospects. In addition, one of them fills an immediate need, as the Marlins starting shortstop is a free agent. In addition, the Red Sox took on an albatross contract. I'm not seeing how that's 'nothing'. I'm not a big Hanley fan, but I still understand that others disagree.
Ramirez's value to the Sox has diminished the past couple of years. Most good and honest Sox fans deemed him expendable. I don't think that Sanchez has been officially announced as part of the deal, unless I'm wrong.
yanks710
11-21-05, 10:01 PM
The Yankees front office really needs to stop dragging ass.
Yea. Well I'm down for trading Pavano for some prospects, then maybe Sheffield for some prospects. Then ship them all off to Minnesota for Santana. But yea, never happening.
The Yankees front office really needs to stop dragging ass.
What are you talking about? We've got Jose Veras!
Seems to me the RS have deviated from their long range plans in an effort to get some positive news going on Yawkey Way. Beckett is far from a sure thing.
I don't think so at all. Hanley was trade bait as soon as Renteria was signed. From a statistical standpoint, his peformance just doesn't match his perceived value from a more traditional scouting standpoint, and he did nothing this past year to change that.
In Delcarmen, Paplebon, Lester, and Sanchez, the Red Sox have depth in the high minors at starting pitching. No team, or at least no team that wants to contend, is going to try to break in all of these guys all at once.
Is Beckett a risk? Yes, I've said that throughout this thread. But, he's a risk that the Red Sox can take because they have a guy they think is overhyped and they have pitching depth in the high minors. The Yankees really can't take that risk. If they trade Hughes, they don't have 2 other Hugheses.
This is exactly why you 'build the farm'. By all accounts, it's Shipley and Hoyer pulling the strings on this deal, and it makes sense to me in terms of the long term planning.
ryanthe13th
11-21-05, 10:05 PM
We don't need another starting pitcher, for the last time. We need a CF and we need relief pitching. We already lost Eyre and Ryan, we can't afford losing Howry, Gordon, or even the dreaded Farnsworth.
NelsonMuntz
11-21-05, 10:08 PM
In Marlins' home games last year, there were 1103k's, compared to 940 on the road. Thats 17% more strikeouts at home than on the road. Fenway was very neutral for k's, however: 1010 at home to 993 on the road. Thats less than 2% more, which could be simply statistical variance.
How would a park have any impact on strikeouts? :confused:
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 10:08 PM
I forgot about Lowell. That makes it a lot more in favor of Florida. If he doesn't bounce back, that contract sucks. Also, he likely steals playing time from a productive Youkilis. I wonder how much money they're going to be able to spend on their outfield and in their bullpen now. I think we might see Boston hoping that Foulke turns it around with Timlin as their fallback plan at closer, with a couple other decent-but-not-great relievers to fill in the gaps.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 10:09 PM
I'm with you Dooley. So far this offseason has been nothing but worrisome.
And I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope I'm wrong and that it's too early to make the judgment, but everything I'm reading has a negative twist to it. It's the Yanks job to turn them into positives before it looks even more pathetic than it is.
noneckwilliams
11-21-05, 10:10 PM
Beckett has the potential to be an ace. A very dominating ace. I wouldn't mind taking chances like that with George's money. It's not mine.
As a matter of fact I'm hoping the Yanks go after AJ. Not in retaliation for what the Sox did, but to show some balls picking up someone with a live arm. If he fails, he fails. But, with the right adjustment he too can be a dominating ace-type pitcher.
I've always liked Burnett more than Beckett but the Yankees should not be in the market for a SP. They have sufficient quality and depth there to survive the inevitable health breakdowns but I expect they will be healthier there this season.
Ramirez's value to the Sox has diminished the past couple of years. Most good and honest Sox fans deemed him expendable. I don't think that Sanchez has been officially announced as part of the deal, unless I'm wrong.
that's the whole point. while the red sox fo may have soured on hanley due to lack of production, the traditional scouting types still love him. the high point of his value is how these guys perceive him. I wouldn't be shocked if he ends up a top 25 BA propect again, for example. I'm not saying I agree with that, merely that someone out there does.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 10:11 PM
How would a park have any impact on strikeouts? :confused:
I went over this earlier, but certain parks have consistently produced more strikeouts at a higher rate than simple statistical variance could account for.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 10:12 PM
We don't need another starting pitcher, for the last time. We need a CF and we need relief pitching. We already lost Eyre and Ryan, we can't afford losing Howry, Gordon, or even the dreaded Farnsworth.
Starting pitching question marks include Mussina, Pavano, Wright, Wang (was he a one year wonder?) and a 42 year old RJ (though I have the most confidence in him). I'll even add Chacon to the mix; does he revert to the troubles he's had in Colorodo where his walk to K ratio was unbearable? Yes, other teams have question marks, but what's wrong with the Yanks trying to eliminate some of them?
sundstrom
11-21-05, 10:12 PM
why does everyone say the yanks lost ryan. until he actually signs somewhere else, i can't say that they lost him.
ryanthe13th
11-21-05, 10:12 PM
Beckett's road ERA is almost a 5.00, so that is encouraging.
How would a park have any impact on strikeouts? :confused:
Answered earlier in the thread, but to summarize:
1. Different hitter's backgrounds
2. Different sizes of foul territory
3. Weather
4. Homerun threat (i.e. how able a pitcher is to challenge a hitter without getting severly punished for it)
all can have an effect on strikeout rates. these things do differ from park to park.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 10:14 PM
I've always liked Burnett more than Beckett but the Yankees should not be in the market for a SP. They have sufficient quality and depth there to survive the inevitable health breakdowns but I expect they will be healthier there this season.
See my remarks on SP. Even if they have to replace Wright with AJ and take the loss, I'll be happy.
NelsonMuntz
11-21-05, 10:16 PM
And I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope I'm wrong and that it's too early to make the judgment, but everything I'm reading has a negative twist to it. It's the Yanks job to turn them into positives before it looks even more pathetic than it is.
Agreed. Like you mentioned earlier, I'm at the point where I'm almost hoping that they do try to sign Burnett. That would make it more palatable if they had to trade Pavano or Chacon for a centerfielder. Just do something. We can't go into 2006 with the same crappy bullpen and Bubba Crosby in CF.
Nothing terribly exciting should happen until after the tender/non-tender deadline, so I'm not sure why anyone is worried.
NelsonMuntz
11-21-05, 10:21 PM
Answered earlier in the thread, but to summarize:
1. Different hitter's backgrounds
2. Different sizes of foul territory
3. Weather
4. Homerun threat (i.e. how able a pitcher is to challenge a hitter without getting severly punished for it)
all can have an effect on strikeout rates. these things do differ from park to park.
Other than altitude (i.e., Colorado), I'm not buying it. Not saying I'm right, but I just don't believe that any of these factors can have a statistically significant impact on strikeouts.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 10:22 PM
It will be interesting to see what Boston does with their remaining holes. If they keep Damon in CF at about 10 or 11 per, I suspect you'll be looking at a bullpen of Foulke, Timlin, Delcarmen, Papelbon, and some filler with Hanson on alert 5, and Youkilis and Lowell at the corners of the infield. Pedroia probably takes over at second. The rotation, if Schilling is healthy, would be Schilling, Beckett, Wakefield, Clement, and Arroyo if they trade Wells. Maybe they trade Wells for Dave Roberts to play CF, and spend the extra money on relievers. I'm curious to see how they handle this.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 10:23 PM
Other than altitude (i.e., Colorado), I'm not buying it. Not saying I'm right, but I just don't believe that any of these factors can have a statistically significant impact on strikeouts.
Ok, they why do some parks so consistently produce more strikeouts than others?
NelsonMuntz
11-21-05, 10:23 PM
Nothing terribly exciting should happen until after the tender/non-tender deadline, so I'm not sure why anyone is worried.
You're probably right, but everyday that goes by without us upgrading CF and the bullpen, the more nervous I get. Last offseason left a very bad taste in my mouth.
Other than altitude (i.e., Colorado), I'm not buying it. Not saying I'm right, but I just don't believe that any of these factors can have a statistically significant impact on strikeouts.
Park factors already indicate that the variances are real from park to park...they aren't made up if it's really happening.
I'd venture that the hitter's backgrounds have the biggest effect. How well you can see the ball widely from park to park.
I Love Wang
11-21-05, 10:26 PM
Maybe the home team has consistently better starting rotations, e.g., the Atlanta Braves.
When I'm talking about park strikeout rates, I'm referring to the rate that team strikes out hitters at home versus the on the road, and the rate at which that team's hitters strike out at home versus on the road. These are consistently higher in for the Marlins in Pro Player than on the road.
Maybe the home team has consistently better starting rotations, e.g., the Atlanta Braves.
That's not how park factors are calculated. As discussed earlier, it's why Yankee Stadium is known to depress run scoring despite the fact that the Yankees score a lot of runs. They basically compare the rate at which players perform in one stadium versus how the same players perform against the same competition in another stadium.
NelsonMuntz
11-21-05, 10:30 PM
When I'm talking about park strikeout rates, I'm referring to the rate that team strikes out hitters at home versus the on the road, and the rate at which that team's hitters strike out at home versus on the road. These are consistently higher in for the Marlins in Pro Player than on the road.
Eh, forget it. I'm too tired to argue. You're probably right anyway.
NelsonMuntz
11-21-05, 10:31 PM
That's not how park factors are calculated. As discussed earlier, it's why Yankee Stadium is known to depress run scoring despite the fact that the Yankees score a lot of runs. They basically compare the rate at which players perform in one stadium versus how the same players perform against the same competition in another stadium.
Yeah I figured I probably missed the point. I should probably delete my post or tomorrow there will be a zillion responses from the more statistically-inclined forumers calling me a dumbass.
Yeah I figured I probably missed the point. I should probably delete my post or tomorrow there will be a zillion responses from the more statistically-inclined forumers calling me a dumbass.
Nope, don't worry about it.
Dumbass ;)
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 10:32 PM
Nothing terribly exciting should happen until after the tender/non-tender deadline, so I'm not sure why anyone is worried.
True. But, I wish I hade more faith in the Yanks, many of their decisions over the past couple of years and their sudden penchant for becoming thrifty, or at least stressing their need to stay within their "budget" at the wrong time, like last year with Beltran when they needed a young CF (though I am not a huge Beltran fan). Plus, when their rival is active, it spurs impatience.
noneckwilliams
11-21-05, 10:34 PM
And I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope I'm wrong and that it's too early to make the judgment, but everything I'm reading has a negative twist to it. It's the Yanks job to turn them into positives before it looks even more pathetic than it is.
From Daily News
The Yankees apparently had a chance to bid for Beckett when the Marlins called them yesterday, according to three other baseball executives. But the Yanks did not want to part with Chien-Ming Wang or Robinson Cano, both of whom the Marlins asked for and the Yanks have vowed not to trade. At one point, Florida wanted Wang, Double-A infielder Eric Duncan and a third prospect, one official said.
The Yankees also did not want to absorb the $18 million owed Lowell over the next two years, the same official said. "They (the Marlins) called everybody, but you had to take Lowell and give up substantial prospects, too," the official said. "The Yankees can't take on $18 million and a player that doesn't fit (Lowell) when they're trying to cut some payroll and still have needs in center field and the bullpen.
"They (the Yankees) would've loved to be in this, but under those criteria, it doesn't make much sense."
The Marlins, who want to slash their payroll below $50 million, were prepared to expand the deal with the Yankees to include Luis Castillo and Juan Pierre for Wang, Cano, Duncan and another prospect, an executive said. But that would have meant the Yanks would have to take on additional payroll - Pierre and Castillo combined to make nearly $9 million last season.
Yanks GM Brian Cashman did not return a call seeking comment, but other baseball officials said the Yanks had concerns about Beckett's health. He has been on the disabled list seven times in the last four years, most often for blister problems.
The Yankees could not make it work.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 10:37 PM
The Yankees could not make it work.
Lately, they rarely seem to be able to. I'm not saying that they should give up any player at another team's demands, but that's why they have a GM, not just a figurehead to stand there and claim that all teams are looking to rob the Yanks rendering them helpless. Hell, I can do that and for a hell of a lot less money.
They couldn't get Burkett, fine, then go after AJ and they won't have to give up anyone. Seems they're interested in pitching. Why not?
NelsonMuntz
11-21-05, 10:37 PM
Nope, don't worry about it.
Dumbass ;)
I deserved that :lol:
sundstrom
11-21-05, 10:38 PM
if it had to be lowell, then it just couldn't happen. no problem with me. but if it could've been delgado and NOT Cano, I would've done it.
To be honest, the only Marlins I think could actually fit into our 2006 plans are Guillermo Mota and Ron Villone.
ICEBERG18
11-21-05, 10:51 PM
From Daily News
The Yankees apparently had a chance to bid for Beckett when the Marlins called them yesterday, according to three other baseball executives. But the Yanks did not want to part with Chien-Ming Wang or Robinson Cano, both of whom the Marlins asked for and the Yanks have vowed not to trade. At one point, Florida wanted Wang, Double-A infielder Eric Duncan and a third prospect, one official said.
The Yankees also did not want to absorb the $18 million owed Lowell over the next two years, the same official said. "They (the Marlins) called everybody, but you had to take Lowell and give up substantial prospects, too," the official said. "The Yankees can't take on $18 million and a player that doesn't fit (Lowell) when they're trying to cut some payroll and still have needs in center field and the bullpen.
"They (the Yankees) would've loved to be in this, but under those criteria, it doesn't make much sense."
The Marlins, who want to slash their payroll below $50 million, were prepared to expand the deal with the Yankees to include Luis Castillo and Juan Pierre for Wang, Cano, Duncan and another prospect, an executive said. But that would have meant the Yanks would have to take on additional payroll - Pierre and Castillo combined to make nearly $9 million last season.
Yanks GM Brian Cashman did not return a call seeking comment, but other baseball officials said the Yanks had concerns about Beckett's health. He has been on the disabled list seven times in the last four years, most often for blister problems.
The Yankees could not make it work.
Is that going to be in tomorrow's Daily News?
27IsNext
11-21-05, 11:08 PM
Lately, they rarely seem to be able to. I'm not saying that they should give up any player at another team's demands, but that's why they have a GM, not just a figurehead to stand there and claim that all teams are looking to rob the Yanks rendering them helpless. Hell, I can do that and for a hell of a lot less money.
They couldn't get Burkett, fine, then go after AJ and they won't have to give up anyone. Seems they're interested in pitching. Why not?
At the moment, we don't have the farm system to make this work. And do you really want to part with Wang, Cano, Duncan and probably Hughes for the likes of Juan Pierre, Mike Lowell (where would we play him?), an often-injured Beckett? Castillo is the only guy on that list that I'd even consider, but he's still over 30 and Cano makes the league minimum.
Also, do you realize it's not even Thanksgiving yet? I know the lack of news is making everyone antsy, but still...
As for Burnett, he's going to be too expensive. I'm not convinced he can stay healthy either.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 11:18 PM
Also, do you realize it's not even Thanksgiving yet? I know the lack of news is making everyone antsy, but still...
It's more a case of TOO much news thus far, mostly negative.
jonnyc39
11-21-05, 11:19 PM
And I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope I'm wrong and that it's too early to make the judgment, but everything I'm reading has a negative twist to it. It's the Yanks job to turn them into positives before it looks even more pathetic than it is.
Hey Dooley, just think how quickly this off season just turned around for Sox fans. Ya never know.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 11:19 PM
Hey Dooley, just think how quickly this off season just turned around for Sox fans. Ya never know.
Not when I see a GM as wishy washy as this one. No way. Lucchino owns him and goes for the kill. George once had balls like that, but he's an old man now.
27IsNext
11-21-05, 11:20 PM
Not when I see a GM as wishy washy as this one. No way.
...?
Am I missing something?
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 11:24 PM
...?
Am I missing something?
One day it's Giles, next day it's Damon. Then back to Giles, Joe leaving 40 messages, but now he's not a good fit. Now Damon might be a good fit. Where's the meeting with BJ? All I hear is BJ doesn't want to be a Yank. Then he's not seeking a 1B because he believes Philips can do the job. Then he claims that if he can't get a set-up man, that maybe Proctor can do the job. On and on. I do not like his way of thinking, and if he's bluffing, who is he fooling exactly when even the least informed fan knows the Yanks needs? It's becoming a circus.
WebsterMulligan
11-21-05, 11:28 PM
One day it's Giles, next day it's Damon. Then back to Giles, Joe leaving 40 messages, but now he's not a good fit. Now Damon might be a good fit. Where's the meeting with BJ? All I hear is BJ doesn't want to be a Yank. Then he's not seeking a 1B because he believes Philips can do the job. Then he claims that if he can't get a set-up man, that maybe Proctor can do the job. On and on. I do not like his way of thinking, and if he's bluffing, who is he fooling exactly when even the least informed fan knows the Yanks needs? It's becoming a circus.
Exactly.
Sooo ... how many days before pitchers and catcher report?
27IsNext
11-21-05, 11:29 PM
One day it's Giles, next day it's Damon. Then back to Giles, now he's not a good fit. Where's the meeting with BJ? All I hear is BJ doesn't want to be a Yank. Then he's not seeking a 1B because he believes Philips can do the job. Then he claims that if he can't get a set-up man, that maybe Proctor can do the job. On and on. I do not like his way of thinking, and if he's trying to bluff, who is he fooling exactly?
This is Cashman, or "sources close to blah blah blah blah?" Maybe he's just keeping his options open? (Granted, Damon would be a horrible idea.) He's not seeking a BACKUP 1Bman because he thinks Phillips can do the job, and rightfully so. Do you honestly believe he thinks Proctor is the answer as the set-up man?
Finally, get this through your head:
B.J. RYAN DOES NOT WANT TO PLAY FOR THE YANKEES. HE DOES NOT WANT TO SET-UP, HE WANTS TO CLOSE.
What is Cashman suppose to do, hold his family hostage until he reconsiders? Quite frankly, if he doesn't want to play in NY, then I don't want him to be here.
SubwayFanatic
11-21-05, 11:30 PM
They couldn't get Burkett, fine,
If the Yankees do indeed get Burkett, there is no way in hell I am rooting for them next year. :mad: ;)
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 11:33 PM
This is Cashman, or "sources close to blah blah blah blah?" Maybe he's just keeping his options open? (Granted, Damon would be a horrible idea.) He's not seeking a BACKUP 1Bman because he thinks Phillips can do the job, and rightfully so. Do you honestly believe he thinks Proctor is the answer as the set-up man?
Finally, get this through your head:
B.J. RYAN DOES NOT WANT TO PLAY FOR THE YANKEES. HE DOES NOT WANT TO SET-UP, HE WANTS TO CLOSE.
What is Cashman suppose to do, hold his family hostage until he reconsiders? Quite frankly, if he doesn't want to play in NY, then I don't want him to be here.
And you spoke to BJ about this? If you did, that's probably more than the Yanks have. Explain to me the Giles/Damon circus act as well and how utterly ridiculous the Yanks are looking.
WebsterMulligan
11-21-05, 11:33 PM
Hey Dooley, just think how quickly this off season just turned around for Sox fans. Ya never know.
It is imperative for the Red Sox to make a big splash quick, to overcome the Theo Epstein public relations backlash, IMO.
27IsNext
11-21-05, 11:37 PM
And you spoke to BJ about this? If you did, that's probably more than the Yanks have. Explain to me the Giles/Damon circus act as well and how utterly ridiculous the Yanks are looking.
Have you read any of the recent articles on the subject?
I call it keeping options open, and trying to drive up the price on Damon.
Rediculous? Okay, sure.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 11:44 PM
Exactly.
Sooo ... how many days before pitchers and catcher report?
Cashman lacks direction. I've seen how he's built the pen, the bench - the less "sexy" signings and trades George and Tampa don't involve themselves with and some of the choices he's made with the starting pitching - most notably some bonehead trades. I've seen the players he's replaced Stick's 4 ring team with.
I'll bet that come that day pitchers and catchers report, that deep down inside most Yankees fans won't be happy with the team and his moves. I'm just as adamant about saying he's a poor GM (as a talent evaluator - he CAN crunch numbers) as the anti-Tampa faction is about their beliefs. Of course, I think I'm right. ;)
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 11:46 PM
Have you read any of the recent articles on the subject?
I call it keeping options open, and trying to drive up the price on Damon.
Rediculous? Okay, sure.
Let's see what the Yanks wind up with. That's all I'm saying and that's the bottom line.
The Yanks should concern themselves less with playing games and more with concentrating on improving the team.
Kulish29
11-21-05, 11:51 PM
Watching ESPN just now. The bottom line says the trade is official.
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 11:52 PM
Watching ESPN just now. The bottom line says the trade is official.
Did they mention all the players involved?
MiamiKat
11-22-05, 12:00 AM
Let's see what the Yanks wind up with. That's all I'm saying and that's the bottom line.
The Yanks should concern themselves less with playing games and more with concentrating on improving the team.
How? By trying to match the Red Sox deal for deal?
And what games are the Yankee FO playing?
It's not even Thanksgiving yet...
Dooley Womack
11-22-05, 12:07 AM
And what games are the Yankee FO playing?
I was responding to a post saying the Yanks are doing this and that to drive up prices. I'm saying to just get on with the job and improve the team.
How? By trying to match the Red Sox deal for deal?
Have you ever thought about who the Sox acquired for their pen over the past few years while the Yanks got one....just ONE good reliever in Gordon? Foulke, Williamson, Timlin, Embree (yeah he was once good), Sauerbeck, Myers....on and on. Yeah, it's impt to keep up.
Archer1979
11-22-05, 12:11 AM
Did they mention all the players involved?
No... just that Boston really made out really well and that Gammons has a woody the size of Idaho right now.
Dooley Womack
11-22-05, 12:11 AM
No... just that Boston really made out really well and that Gammons has a woody the size of Idaho right now.
They did and he should.
27IsNext
11-22-05, 12:18 AM
They did and he should.
I would be pissed if I was a Boston fan right now. Not about Hanley so much as Sanchez though.
Archer1979
11-22-05, 12:24 AM
I would be pissed if I was a Boston fan right now. Not about Hanley so much as Sanchez though.
I'm not pissed... more indifferent than anything else. This ain't a Schilling-type trade where fireworks are going off by any stretch... so I disagree with Dooley there. On the flip side, this doesn't smell like a Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell deal either.
It's more trading potential for an immediate impact. It only works if it pays off. Nobody's going to be able to adequately judge this trade on it's actual merits until 2007/2008.
MiamiKat
11-22-05, 12:26 AM
As an example, have you thought about who the Sox acquired for their pen over the past few years while the Yanks got one....just ONE good reliever in Gordon? Foulke, Williamson, Timlin, Embree (yeah he was once good), Sauerbeck, Myers....on and on. Yeah, it's impt to keep up.
Except for Timlin, every single one of those guys you mentioned for the Sox ended up injured or traded or let go within a few seasons, if that long. (Myers was let go then brought back.)
As for the Yankees, Quantrill was nails for most of 2004 until Torre ground his arm into something resembling silt. Believe it or not, Sturtze was good for 1/2 a season or so. It's too late at night for me to quickly recall if there were any others. Probably not, but...so what. The Yankees were run by a committee until now, largely a committee of fools and Steinbrenner yes-men. I really don't care what happened before.
I really think you're letting the Beckett deal get to you. Don't. It was a deal that made NO sense for the Yankees and plenty for the Red Sox (although I'm not as high on Beckett as some here are).
And what looks from the outside like inertia on behalf of the Yankee FO doesn't mean nothing is going on or they're confused or lost. If it's heading into ST, and they still have done nothing or worse made some awful deals, then I'll be equally pissed off. Right now, I'm in "wait and see" mode.
(Remember too...the A-Rod trade was around Valentine's Day. Today is November 22nd.)
Kulish29
11-22-05, 12:32 AM
Did they mention all the players involved?
All the original players with a minor league pitcher added to the end.
"The Yankees would like to be able to lure center fielder Aaron Rowand from the Chicago White Sox, but as of yesterday the White Sox were working on a deal that would send Rowand to the Florida Marlins for center fielder Juan Pierre".
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1132641043208490.xml&col
Yanks should try to get Pierre and redirect it for Rowand
I Love Wang
11-22-05, 01:42 AM
"The Yankees would like to be able to lure center fielder Aaron Rowand from the Chicago White Sox, but as of yesterday the White Sox were working on a deal that would send Rowand to the Florida Marlins for center fielder Juan Pierre".
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1132641043208490.xml&col
Yanks should try to get Pierre and redirect it for Rowand
The problem is that Pierre is incredibly overrated. I could put together a package that was worth Juan Pierre, say, Tony Womack and a jar of pickles. The dill spears, not that sweet and sour crap. Unfortunately, Florida thinks Pierre is worth a good pitcher and a second baseman who is younger, cheaper, and better than Pierre. Somehow Chicago thinks trading a better player in Rowand plus a good lefty reliever for Pierre is a good idea. Kenny Williams might be legally retarded. Apparently they think they're still short on crappy slap hitters who make a crapload of outs. We should trade Womack to them, he's got Kenny Williams written all over him.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-22-05, 01:57 AM
"The Yankees would like to be able to lure center fielder Aaron Rowand from the Chicago White Sox, but as of yesterday the White Sox were working on a deal that would send Rowand to the Florida Marlins for center fielder Juan Pierre".
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1132641043208490.xml&col
Yanks should try to get Pierre and redirect it for Rowand
That makes absolutely no sense for both parties...
effdamets
11-22-05, 07:54 AM
The problem is that Pierre is incredibly overrated. I could put together a package that was worth Juan Pierre, say, Tony Womack and a jar of pickles. The dill spears, not that sweet and sour crap. Unfortunately, Florida thinks Pierre is worth a good pitcher and a second baseman who is younger, cheaper, and better than Pierre. Somehow Chicago thinks trading a better player in Rowand plus a good lefty reliever for Pierre is a good idea. Kenny Williams might be legally retarded. Apparently they think they're still short on crappy slap hitters who make a crapload of outs. We should trade Womack to them, he's got Kenny Williams written all over him.
Why do you think Rowand is a better player than Pierre? Rowand's career BA is much lower, his career OBP is much lower and he strikes out WAY, WAY more than Pierre, and way more than you would like any player to strike out? Pierre is faster and can steal more bases, plus, Pierre can be the pesty leadoff hitter that Rowand cannot be....
Yanks Lifer
11-22-05, 08:34 AM
I may get crucified for this, but feel the Yankees could benefit from Loduca and Mota. Mota was very good in his setup role in LA, maybe he could thrive in that role again. The Yanks do need a backup catcher, plus LoDuca has played OF and 1B. His defense isn't great and his salary is higher, but he has a better bat than what's availableat backup C. Obviously it would depend on the price.
PerfectCone
11-22-05, 08:37 AM
Why do you think Rowand is a better player than Pierre? Rowand's career BA is much lower, his career OBP is much lower and he strikes out WAY, WAY more than Pierre, and way more than you would like any player to strike out? Pierre is faster and can steal more bases, plus, Pierre can be the pesty leadoff hitter that Rowand cannot be....
Forget it man, you show any interest in Pierre on these boards and you get crucified and told he is a horrible player. Trust me, I have tried.
I would defnitely take LoDuca.
Am I being foolish or would anyone else have pulled the trigger on Wang, Cano and Duncan for Pierre, Castillo and Beckett?
Beckett is younger and measurably better than Wang. Castillo makes Cano look like a bush leaguer at second and Pierre could've solved our centerfield issues. I know everyone is in love with prospects, but my theory has always been that prospects are suspects. ie: Hensley Muelens, Brien Taylor, the list goes on and on.
In my opinion, taking on the salary of guys like Lowell, Pierre, and Castillo is exactly the type of thing we (hopefully) won't be doing anymore. Sure, it would have been nice to get Beckett, but not if you have to pay Lowell and give away 2 cheap, young starters and one of our best prospects.
By not making these deals, we can hang on to our prospects. After next year, we'll be getting out of some big contracts (Posada, Shef, Moose, Wright), and it will just allow us to be more flexible in the future.
effdamets
11-22-05, 09:11 AM
Forget it man, you show any interest in Pierre on these boards and you get crucified and told he is a horrible player. Trust me, I have tried.
I would defnitely take LoDuca.
Am I being foolish or would anyone else have pulled the trigger on Wang, Cano and Duncan for Pierre, Castillo and Beckett?
Beckett is younger and measurably better than Wang. Castillo makes Cano look like a bush leaguer at second and Pierre could've solved our centerfield issues. I know everyone is in love with prospects, but my theory has always been that prospects are suspects. ie: Hensley Muelens, Brien Taylor, the list goes on and on.
I like Castillo because he doesn't strikeout and his defense is great. Not good, great! I think the Yankees have been lacking a little on the defensive side of the ball the last few years... LoDuca would be a bad move, period.
The only factor would be, would Florida have done the deal? (Wang-Cano-Duncan for Pierre-Castillo-Beckette)
Believe me, Cano and Wang are no Hensley Muelens or Brien Taylor. However, Castillo and Pierre are MILES better than what we have right now...
nyg02005
11-22-05, 09:46 AM
In my opinion, taking on the salary of guys like Lowell, Pierre, and Castillo is exactly the type of thing we (hopefully) won't be doing anymore. Sure, it would have been nice to get Beckett, but not if you have to pay Lowell and give away 2 cheap, young starters and one of our best prospects.
By not making these deals, we can hang on to our prospects. After next year, we'll be getting out of some big contracts (Posada, Shef, Moose, Wright), and it will just allow us to be more flexible in the future.
You can remove posada from your list. He will be with the yankees for the 2007 season.
Stupid Flanders
11-22-05, 10:12 AM
Pierre can be the pesty leadoff hitter... what?
... what?
He means for the team that has Pierre. I think.
9 pages and no one has mentioned Willis. I know he's relatively cheap and they are looking to dump salary. But wouldn't this be the one Marlin that is worth giving up people of value for? There has to be something we could offer that would at least make them raise their eyebrows.
effdamets
11-22-05, 11:21 AM
... what?
You know.. A pest? In the leadoff spot? Certainly, it's something that the Yankees haven't had since Chuck Knoblach!
He means for the team that has Pierre. I think.
Actually yes, whatever team he is on, but more in comparison to Rowand. Such as if either would come to the Yankees.
People are under some kind of impression that this Rowand is the next coming of Willie Mays. He's not that special. Is he better than what we have? Probably! Especially defensively. Would I trade Wang for him? A big fat NO! I might think about trading Wang for Pierre though. I happen to like Pierre. It's just personal preference.
knickfan23
11-22-05, 11:23 AM
9 pages and no one has mentioned Willis. I know he's relatively cheap and they are looking to dump salary. But wouldn't this be the one Marlin that is worth giving up people of value for? There has to be something we could offer that would at least make them raise their eyebrows.
He's not even up for arbitration. Why would the Marlins trade him? It's not like they are going to trade the whole team.
You know.. A pest? In the leadoff spot? Certainly, it's something that the Yankees haven't had since Chuck Knoblach!
Actually yes, whatever team he is on, but more in comparison to Rowand. Such as if either would come to the Yankees.
People are under some kind of impression that this Rowand is the next coming of Willie Mays. He's not that special. Is he better than what we have? Probably! Especially defensively. Would I trade Wang for him? A big fat NO! I might think about trading Wang for Pierre though. I happen to like Pierre. It's just personal preference.
Ok first of all I wouldn't trade Wang for either of them. And second of all Rowand is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pierre. Juan is just a notch above Tony Womack.
knickfan23
11-22-05, 11:32 AM
I may get crucified for this, but feel the Yankees could benefit from Loduca and Mota. Mota was very good in his setup role in LA, maybe he could thrive in that role again. The Yanks do need a backup catcher, plus LoDuca has played OF and 1B. His defense isn't great and his salary is higher, but he has a better bat than what's availableat backup C. Obviously it would depend on the price.
I would definitely look into the Mota thing as well.
It looks like the Yanks wont get Ryan. Eyre is with the Cubs, Howry hasnt been on the radar yet. Farnsworth is there, but I dont like him. This offseason, it appears that trades are the priority and signing free agents are the fallback position.
The only way you are going get relievers are by trading for them, because the other options outside of Ryan are fishy at best.
I would definitely look into the Mota thing as well.
It looks like the Yanks wont get Ryan. Eyre is with the Cubs, Howry hasnt been on the radar yet. Farnsworth is there, but I dont like him. This offseason, it appears that trades are the priority and signing free agents are the fallback position.
The only way you are going get relievers are by trading for them, because the other options outside of Ryan are fishy at best.
I'm not high on Mota. He reminds me of F-Rod.
StatenIslandYankee
11-22-05, 11:34 AM
9 pages and no one has mentioned Willis. I know he's relatively cheap and they are looking to dump salary. But wouldn't this be the one Marlin that is worth giving up people of value for? There has to be something we could offer that would at least make them raise their eyebrows.
They are not moving him.
9 pages and no one has mentioned Willis. I know he's relatively cheap and they are looking to dump salary. But wouldn't this be the one Marlin that is worth giving up people of value for? There has to be something we could offer that would at least make them raise their eyebrows.
They are looking to dump salary in part because they want to be able to sign Willis and Cabrera long term.
NewEraYanks2527
11-22-05, 11:36 AM
The Yankees can not benefit from anyone's firesale, no one wants to trade with the Yankees no one wants to sign with the Yankees and I'm starting to get pissed off about it.
effdamets
11-22-05, 11:40 AM
Ok first of all I wouldn't trade Wang for either of them. And second of all Rowand is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pierre. Juan is just a notch above Tony Womack.
Are you comparing the same two players that I am comparing?
Pierre's Career: (avg season)
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
654 100 199 22 9 2 47 51 18 43 40 .305 .355
Rowand's Carreer:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
461 71 130 27 3 15 59 11 3 27 87 .283 .337
Is it the 13 homers that is throwing off?
Oh... Defensively? Rowand fielding percentage: .986, Pierre: .989
So how is Rowand sooooo much better than Pierre? He's not as durable. He's more apt to score less runs, have less hits, have less stole bases and a lower OBP, while playing virtually the same centerfield defensively.
Would it be bad to have a leadoff hitter, which Rowand is not, that gets 200 hits per season, which Rowand doesn't do, and have someone that can distract the opposing pitcher with the extreme threat of a stolen base?
The Yankees can not benefit from anyone's firesale, no one wants to trade with the Yankees no one wants to sign with the Yankees and I'm starting to get pissed off about it.
I say forget them all then. We'll still be in the playoffs next year while Ryan and Giles are watching us on TV.
NewEraYanks2527
11-22-05, 11:46 AM
I say forget them all then. We'll still be in the playoffs next year while Ryan and Giles are watching us on TV.
Most likely so, we just need to fill in those holes in Center and the bullpen in order to go anywhere in the playoffs, oh maybe there is some gold in the farm system that can perform on this level, like Cox or Matt Smith who people are high about. I dunno I'm just grasping.
whalers
11-22-05, 11:49 AM
I say forget them all then. We'll still be in the playoffs next year while Ryan and Giles are watching us on TV.
Same here.
Clemens831
11-22-05, 11:51 AM
Are you comparing the same two players that I am comparing?
Pierre's Career: (avg season)
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
654 100 199 22 9 2 47 51 18 43 40 .305 .355
Rowand's Carreer:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
461 71 130 27 3 15 59 11 3 27 87 .283 .337
Is it the 13 homers that is throwing off?
Oh... Defensively? Rowand fielding percentage: .986, Pierre: .989
So how is Rowand sooooo much better than Pierre? He's not as durable. He's more apt to score less runs, have less hits, have less stole bases and a lower OBP, while playing virtually the same centerfield defensively.
Would it be bad to have a leadoff hitter, which Rowand is not, that gets 200 hits per season, which Rowand doesn't do, and have someone that can distract the opposing pitcher with the extreme threat of a stolen base?
No, it's mostly the defense that sets them apart. I can't believe you're giving fielding percentage as a presumably accurate measure of defensive ability. Please.
Are you comparing the same two players that I am comparing?
Pierre's Career: (avg season)
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
654 100 199 22 9 2 47 51 18 43 40 .305 .355
Rowand's Carreer:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
461 71 130 27 3 15 59 11 3 27 87 .283 .337
Is it the 13 homers that is throwing off?
Oh... Defensively? Rowand fielding percentage: .986, Pierre: .989
So how is Rowand sooooo much better than Pierre? He's not as durable. He's more apt to score less runs, have less hits, have less stole bases and a lower OBP, while playing virtually the same centerfield defensively.
Would it be bad to have a leadoff hitter, which Rowand is not, that gets 200 hits per season, which Rowand doesn't do, and have someone that can distract the opposing pitcher with the extreme threat of a stolen base?
I don't know where to begin this one...
I Love Wang
11-22-05, 11:55 AM
Are you comparing the same two players that I am comparing?
Pierre's Career: (avg season)
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
654 100 199 22 9 2 47 51 18 43 40 .305 .355
Rowand's Carreer:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
461 71 130 27 3 15 59 11 3 27 87 .283 .337
Is it the 13 homers that is throwing off?
Oh... Defensively? Rowand fielding percentage: .986, Pierre: .989
So how is Rowand sooooo much better than Pierre? He's not as durable. He's more apt to score less runs, have less hits, have less stole bases and a lower OBP, while playing virtually the same centerfield defensively.
Would it be bad to have a leadoff hitter, which Rowand is not, that gets 200 hits per season, which Rowand doesn't do, and have someone that can distract the opposing pitcher with the extreme threat of a stolen base?
Pierre is a crummy leadoff hitter, because he doesn't get on base enough. And Rowand is 1000% better on defense than Pierre. Also, he has a career 103 OPS+ to Pierre's 87. Rowand is definitely the better player.
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:00 PM
No, it's mostly the defense that sets them apart. I can't believe you're giving fielding percentage as a presumably accurate measure of defensive ability. Please.
Is this new Range Factor stat good enough?
Because...
Rowand: 1.95 and Pierre: 2.35
Rowand is not '95 Ken Griffey Jr. here... Neither is Pierre, but, the difference is very small. So small that you would have to see who brings the better offense and who offers other skills you are looking for, to determine who would be better for your team.
Are you comparing the same two players that I am comparing?
Pierre's Career: (avg season)
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
654 100 199 22 9 2 47 51 18 43 40 .305 .355
Rowand's Carreer:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP
461 71 130 27 3 15 59 11 3 27 87 .283 .337
Is it the 13 homers that is throwing off?
Oh... Defensively? Rowand fielding percentage: .986, Pierre: .989
So how is Rowand sooooo much better than Pierre? He's not as durable. He's more apt to score less runs, have less hits, have less stole bases and a lower OBP, while playing virtually the same centerfield defensively.
Would it be bad to have a leadoff hitter, which Rowand is not, that gets 200 hits per season, which Rowand doesn't do, and have someone that can distract the opposing pitcher with the extreme threat of a stolen base?
Fielding pctg for an OF? Really? Many excellent fielding OF get their errors on throws, since they have a decent arm and create closer plays at bases where the ball may skip by the receiving fielder.
Anyway, ROwand is head and shoulders above Pierre in the field. In just about every aspect- initial jump, range, arm.
He's a more dangerous hitter- he has pop and isn't a singles hitter who doesn't walk like Pierre. Rowand at least has the ability to punish a pitcher. He also scores runs at a pretty decent clip considering his spot in the batting order.
He's Pierre's superior in just about everything but SB. And since Pierre is not an overly efficient basestealer (and Rowand has speed and is relatively good at swiping a base), that isn't the greatest of factors.
Carlos Beltran before last year was the perfect example of a weapon on the bases. Pierre is more of a wash.
Is this new Range Factor stat good enough?
Because...
Rowand: 1.95 and Pierre: 2.35
Rowand is not '95 Ken Griffey Jr. here... Neither is Pierre, but, the difference is very small. So small that you would have to see who brings the better offense and who offers other skills you are looking for, to determine who would be better for your team.
Way to skew that one.....that takes into account his playing time in the corner spots, where range factors are significantly lower. The last two years (his ONLY two years as a starter), he's been above the league average range factor, and comfortably above average using other more reliable measuring tools as well.
I Love Wang
11-22-05, 12:04 PM
Is this new Range Factor stat good enough?
Because...
Rowand: 1.95 and Pierre: 2.35
Rowand is not '95 Ken Griffey Jr. here... Neither is Pierre, but, the difference is very small. So small that you would have to see who brings the better offense and who offers other skills you are looking for, to determine who would be better for your team.
No. Range Factor is also a terrible stat. They have much more comprehensive numbers for this. BP's fielding runs had Rowand as 13 runs better than Pierre last year. Win Shares has Rowand at 7.6 with Pierre at 2.9. Pierre is a bad fielder. Rowand is a great one. He's also a better hitter, by a fair margin. He's a much, much, better player.
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:07 PM
Pierre is a crummy leadoff hitter, because he doesn't get on base enough. And Rowand is 1000% better on defense than Pierre. Also, he has a career 103 OPS+ to Pierre's 87. Rowand is definitely the better player.
Doesn't get on base? Compared to who? Ricky Henderson? Pierre's OBP is better than Rowand's. Aren't we comparing the two? Is Johnny Damon a good lead-off hitter? His OBP is only .353 for his career. Two words... A hundred runs scored....
So what you are syaing is you would rather have a guy that strikes out 100 times a year as opposed to a guy that puts the ball in play and can make things happen with his speed? All of this because he made a few nice catches during his visit to Yankee Stadium this season...
Oh, the OPS favors Rowand because he hits more homeruns. Just what the Yankees need another guy swinging for the downs every at bat! Let's see, stockpiling homerun hitters over the last 5 years has gotten us how many championships?
No. Range Factor is also a terrible stat. They have much more comprehensive numbers for this. BP's fielding runs had Rowand as 13 runs better than Pierre last year. Win Shares has Rowand at 7.6 with Pierre at 2.9. Pierre is a bad fielder. Rowand is a great one. He's also a better hitter, by a fair margin. He's a much, much, better player.
What he said......also, as mentioned above, the range factor numbers he quoted were career numbers that took into account time in the corner spots- where RF numbers are significantly lower.
There's no fail-safe way to measure fielding- but a combination of several measurements usually yields a solid view- and it is clear that Rowand is significantly better than Pierre.
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:09 PM
No. Range Factor is also a terrible stat. They have much more comprehensive numbers for this. BP's fielding runs had Rowand as 13 runs better than Pierre last year. Win Shares has Rowand at 7.6 with Pierre at 2.9. Pierre is a bad fielder. Rowand is a great one. He's also a better hitter, by a fair margin. He's a much, much, better player.
Which stat tells me that Rowand is a better hitter than Pierre?
Stupid Flanders
11-22-05, 12:10 PM
You know.. A pest? In the leadoff spot? Certainly, it's something that the Yankees haven't had since Chuck Knoblach!
What is so "pesty" about a guy who doesn't get on base and makes outs all the time?
Doesn't get on base? Compared to who? Ricky Henderson? Pierre's OBP is better than Rowand's. Aren't we comparing the two? Is Johnny Damon a good lead-off hitter? His OBP is only .353 for his career. Two words... A hundred runs scored....
So what you are syaing is you would rather have a guy that strikes out 100 times a year as opposed to a guy that puts the ball in play and can make things happen with his speed? All of this because he made a few nice catches during his visit to Yankee Stadium this season...
Oh, the OPS favors Rowand because he hits more homeruns. Just what the Yankees need another guy swinging for the downs every at bat! Let's see, stockpiling homerun hitters over the last 5 years has gotten us how many championships?
Aaron Rowand, for his career, is one of the best hitters with RISP. With 2 outs and RISP, he's phenonmenal- I believe in the .340 range. He's pretty widely regarded as one of the tougher outs in that Chicago lineup in a big spot.
He is clearly a better offensive player than Pierre. Pierre has two things that look nice- batting average and SB. The SB are some years complimentary to an offense in his case and in others detrimental. In '04, for example, he killed the Marlins on offense because he got caught WAY too many times compared to his success. Rowand hits for what is a comparable average the past few years, with significantly more power.
Again, Pierre would be an improvement over the current Yankee CF situation. But he's not in Rowand's class. Not close.
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:14 PM
What is so "pesty" about a guy who doesn't get on base and makes outs all the time?
Well, he is more pesty than a guy that gets on base less than he does and strikes out 100 time a season in 200 less at bats!
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Bases Empty 461 977 30 258 61 5 30 30 54 196 0 0 .264 .320 .429 .749
Runners On 422 670 225 208 36 4 24 181 42 114 38 12 .310 .361 .484 .845
RISP 332 365 183 110 15 2 14 147 29 66 7 0 .301 .363 .468 .831
RISP w/2 Outs 205 182 69 59 7 2 7 76 14 34 2 0 .324 .400 .500 .900
Bases Loaded 58 30 31 6 0 0 1 18 1 9 0 0 .200 .206 .300 .506
The last two years are the ones where I mentioned his .340ish avg., but these are career numbers. Pretty decent sample size suggesting he is clearly a better hitter with runners on base in front of him. I would think that is exactly the type of player the Yanks could use near the bottom of their order.
I Love Wang
11-22-05, 12:19 PM
Which stat tells me that Rowand is a better hitter than Pierre?
Career OPS+
Rowand: 103
Pierre: 87
I Love Wang
11-22-05, 12:20 PM
Doesn't get on base? Compared to who? Ricky Henderson? Pierre's OBP is better than Rowand's. Aren't we comparing the two? Is Johnny Damon a good lead-off hitter? His OBP is only .353 for his career. Two words... A hundred runs scored....
So what you are syaing is you would rather have a guy that strikes out 100 times a year as opposed to a guy that puts the ball in play and can make things happen with his speed? All of this because he made a few nice catches during his visit to Yankee Stadium this season...
Oh, the OPS favors Rowand because he hits more homeruns. Just what the Yankees need another guy swinging for the downs every at bat! Let's see, stockpiling homerun hitters over the last 5 years has gotten us how many championships?
Pierre's OBP was worse than Rowand's this year. A .326 OBP for a leadoff man is horrible. Really really horrible. I'm getting tired of these posts.
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:20 PM
Aaron Rowand, for his career, is one of the best hitters with RISP. With 2 outs and RISP, he's phenonmenal- I believe in the .340 range. He's pretty widely regarded as one of the tougher outs in that Chicago lineup in a big spot.
He is clearly a better offensive player than Pierre. Pierre has two things that look nice- batting average and SB. The SB are some years complimentary to an offense in his case and in others detrimental. In '04, for example, he killed the Marlins on offense because he got caught WAY too many times compared to his success. Rowand hits for what is a comparable average the past few years, with significantly more power.
Again, Pierre would be an improvement over the current Yankee CF situation. But he's not in Rowand's class. Not close.
Well, the RISP stat is not fair because Pierre has been a lead off hitter and it is not his job to drive in runs....
Regarded by who, as a tough out?
People need to stop making Rowand out to be Joe Dimaggio as well as making Pierre out to be Oscar Azocar. Rowand is not a special player. He doesn't make enough contact at the plate and his defense, while good, does not make up for his awful short comings at the plate. Like swinging and missing.
Soriambi
11-22-05, 12:21 PM
Anyway, ROwand is head and shoulders above Pierre in the field. In just about every aspect- initial jump, range, arm.
On this note, specifcally the arm one, I read an interesting article the other day which attempted to quantify outfield arms beyond throwing assists by breaking the field down into many different quadrants, finding out how often baserunners advanced when the ball was hit into those quadrants, and how often outfielders stopped those runners from advancing as compared to the expected amount of times they'd stop. The worst arm in baseball according to the study? Johnny Damon? No, he's third. Bernie Williams? No, he's the second worst. The worst was Juan Pierre:
http://www.protrade.com/insight/InsightArticleDesjardinsBestOutfieldArm.html
MTYankee23
11-22-05, 12:22 PM
So what you are syaing is you would rather have a guy that strikes out 100 times a year as opposed to a guy that puts the ball in play and can make things happen with his speed? All of this because he made a few nice catches during his visit to Yankee Stadium this season...
Yes, I would rather Have Jeter than David Eckstein.
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:23 PM
Pierre's OBP was worse than Rowand's this year. A .326 OBP for a leadoff man is horrible. Really really horrible. I'm getting tired of these posts.
You cannot base a comparison like this on one season... Otherwise you would have run A-Rod out of town last season when he only hit .286. And Rowand's was only .329.... So that is a wash...
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:24 PM
Yes, I would rather Have Jeter than David Eckstein.
We are not comparing Jeter to Eckstein. And Jeter doesn't strike out 100 times a year.
I Love Wang
11-22-05, 12:26 PM
You cannot base a comparison like this on one season... Otherwise you would have run A-Rod out of town last season when he only hit .286. And Rowand's was only .329.... So that is a wash...
I don't run players out of town based on batting average. A-Rod still had the best season of any third baseman in Yankee history. Any more brilliant comments?
Regarding Rowand and Pierre's OBP, it was about a wash this year. But Rowand is better in every other aspect of the game. Thats why he's a better player.
MTYankee23
11-22-05, 12:26 PM
We are not comparing Jeter to Eckstein. And Jeter doesn't strike out 100 times a year.
No kidding, but you're talking about strikeout guys as if a strikeout is any more/less productive than any other out. On the whole, just looking at strikeouts is a terrible way to judge a hitter. I used Jeter as an example of a great hitter who strikes out a lot.
Soriambi
11-22-05, 12:27 PM
We are not comparing Jeter to Eckstein. And Jeter doesn't strike out 100 times a year.
You're right-he averages 116 Ks per 162 games, so it's actually more than 100. Other than the year he was injured and only Ked 88, the next lowest Jeter strikeout total is 99, which he did three times. In all of the other years, he Ked more then 100 times.
You cannot base a comparison like this on one season... Otherwise you would have run A-Rod out of town last season when he only hit .286. And Rowand's was only .329.... So that is a wash...
Huh? Pierre's ONLY plus ability offensively happens when he gets on base. He doesn't do anything except reach first base (no power), so OBP is his most important statistic since he has no other way of contributing.
You picked probably the worst player in the league for your comparison. A-rod can hit .240 for average and still be light years better than Pierre offensively. He'll still walk enough to have a semi-decent OBP, and his power production would dwarf anything Pierre did. Bad comparison.
You say Rowand's OBP was a wash with Pierre? Fine. Then....look at how else each player helps an offense. Pierre's stops after the OBP. He can't do anything else. Rowand can, and does. It's a bad argument to make, and you can't win.
Is Pierre a much better offensive player than Adam Dunn, since DUnn K's an amazingly high number of times and hits for a low average?
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:35 PM
No kidding, but you're talking about strikeout guys as if a strikeout is any more/less productive than any other out. On the whole, just looking at strikeouts is a terrible way to judge a hitter. I used Jeter as an example of a great hitter who strikes out a lot.
After calling up Jeter's stats, I stand corrected... He does strike out about 100 times a season. My apologies. I'm not judging Pierre as a hitter, per say, because he only strikes out about 6 percent of the time. What I am saying is that he makes more contact, which is something that the Yankees lack. I'd rather have a guy that hits the ball for an out than a guy that strikes out. More things can happen when the ball is put into play. Remember the times back in the late 90's when the Yankees would constantly put pressure on the defense by putting the ball in play?
And, I hate to say this, but... Since Jeter has been leading off (regularly), how many championships have the Yankees won? Maybe it's because they have a leadoff hitter that strikeouts 100 times a year...
MTYankee23
11-22-05, 12:40 PM
After calling up Jeter's stats, I stand corrected... He does strike out about 100 times a season. My apologies. I'm not judging Pierre as a hitter, per say, because he only strikes out about 6 percent of the time. What I am saying is that he makes more contact, which is something that the Yankees lack. I'd rather have a guy that hits the ball for an out than a guy that strikes out. More things can happen when the ball is put into play. Remember the times back in the late 90's when the Yankees would constantly put pressure on the defense by putting the ball in play?
And, I hate to say this, but... Since Jeter has been leading off (regularly), how many championships have the Yankees won? Maybe it's because they have a leadoff hitter that strikeouts 100 times a year...
Those yankee teams 1-9 were amongst some of the most patient in baseball. There's a difference between striking out because you're flailing away a pitches vs. working the count. Which Jeter does as well as anyone. An underated aspect of those teams was they were also very good defensively if I recall correctly.
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:40 PM
Huh? Pierre's ONLY plus ability offensively happens when he gets on base. He doesn't do anything except reach first base (no power), so OBP is his most important statistic since he has no other way of contributing.
You picked probably the worst player in the league for your comparison. A-rod can hit .240 for average and still be light years better than Pierre offensively. He'll still walk enough to have a semi-decent OBP, and his power production would dwarf anything Pierre did. Bad comparison.
You say Rowand's OBP was a wash with Pierre? Fine. Then....look at how else each player helps an offense. Pierre's stops after the OBP. He can't do anything else. Rowand can, and does. It's a bad argument to make, and you can't win.
Well, 200 hits per season is a pretty good way of 'contributing', no?
As for A-Rod, YOU took him as a comparison, player to player. What I was saying, if you read the post correctly was, that you cannot take ONE season and say that is the norm. You have to look more closely at the career numbers as it is more likely a player will achieve those numbers than any one season.
Again, 200 hits per season (its actually 199) tells me that he puts the bat on the ball and he has played in a pitcher friendly park.
What I was saying, if you read the post correctly was, that you cannot take ONE season and say that is the norm. You have to look more closely at the career numbers as it is more likely a player will achieve those numbers than any one season.
That's not really true, as recent performance is always going to carry more weight.
The issue with Pierre was never the player he was at his peak. It's the player he's likely to be from here on out. In other words, how was he succesful in the past and what skills does he have to be succesful as he ages?
After calling up Jeter's stats, I stand corrected... He does strike out about 100 times a season. My apologies. I'm not judging Pierre as a hitter, per say, because he only strikes out about 6 percent of the time. What I am saying is that he makes more contact, which is something that the Yankees lack. I'd rather have a guy that hits the ball for an out than a guy that strikes out. More things can happen when the ball is put into play. Remember the times back in the late 90's when the Yankees would constantly put pressure on the defense by putting the ball in play?
And, I hate to say this, but... Since Jeter has been leading off (regularly), how many championships have the Yankees won? Maybe it's because they have a leadoff hitter that strikeouts 100 times a year...
So you think that if Jeter only struck out 40 times a year and those other 60 outs were groundouts or flyouts we would have won those World Series?
In any case, I'm pretty sure we made the playoffs anyway in all of those years, so Jeter's regular season Ks had nothing to do with not winning championships. I seem to recall a lot more of losing because Mariano gave up runs (2001, 2004), starting pitching absolutely fell apart (2002, 2005), 3,4,5 hitters such as Arod, Sheff, and Matsui failing (2004, 2005), etc.
effdamets
11-22-05, 12:53 PM
That's not really true, as recent performance is always going to carry more weight.
The issue with Pierre was never the player he was at his peak. It's the player he's likely to be from here on out. In other words, how was he succesful in the past and what skills does he have to be succesful as he ages?
Then we better get rid of Giambi because the trend says that he was never the player he was when he was at his peak...
Then we better get rid of Giambi because the trend says that he was never the player he was when he was at his peak...
As with Pierre, the question is not a question of peak, it's a question of what happens from here on out. Giambi possesses a different skill set than Pierre (one that is more condusive to aging btw.).
Well, 200 hits per season is a pretty good way of 'contributing', no?
As for A-Rod, YOU took him as a comparison, player to player. What I was saying, if you read the post correctly was, that you cannot take ONE season and say that is the norm. You have to look more closely at the career numbers as it is more likely a player will achieve those numbers than any one season.
Again, 200 hits per season (its actually 199) tells me that he puts the bat on the ball and he has played in a pitcher friendly park.
First, the park Pierre plays in is likely a contributing factor to the type of offense he creates as opposed to a negative one.
Secondly....I could not care less how many singles he gets per year. Tell me how often Juan Pierre gets on base. Once on, how many times he gets thrown out- and the percentage at which he does so- is also a major factor. He's been anywhere from good to acceptable to atrocious in that regard, depending on the year. That's it for him.
Last year, Pierre's OPS was under .700. I mean, that's horrific for just about anyone.
Fabien Brandy
11-22-05, 02:37 PM
Since Jeter has been leading off (regularly), how many championships have the Yankees won? Maybe it's because they have a leadoff hitter that strikeouts 100 times a year...
If there's ever a time when a strikeout is the same as any other out, I'd think it would be leading off an inning, wouldn't it?
Kulish29
11-22-05, 04:47 PM
God I wish the Rockies would've just kept Juan Pierre.
Sorry to go off on a whole other subject but personally I'm pretty upset if the Yankees actually passed up on an offer from the Marlins of Beckett for Wang and Duncan as reported by the Daily News. I absolutely love Duncan, and to not pull the trigger on that offer in my opinion would be a mistake given the talent on the table.
Dr. Gonzo
11-22-05, 05:32 PM
Sorry to go off on a whole other subject but personally I'm pretty upset if the Yankees actually passed up on an offer from the Marlins of Beckett for Wang and Duncan as reported by the Daily News. I absolutely love Duncan, and to not pull the trigger on that offer in my opinion would be a mistake given the talent on the table.
Wang and Beckett are the same age, essentially. Beckett has a longer record and that WS stint, but Wang did prove himself well.
Lowell and Duncan in no way match, youth and future vs. bad contract and faltering.
In no way do I see that being fair.
Wang + B level for Beckett makes more sense to me.
Sorry to go off on a whole other subject but personally I'm pretty upset if the Yankees actually passed up on an offer from the Marlins of Beckett for Wang and Duncan as reported by the Daily News. I absolutely love Duncan, and to not pull the trigger on that offer in my opinion would be a mistake given the talent on the table.
Thank God the Yankees didn't pull the trigger!!
ring403
11-22-05, 06:38 PM
Sorry to go off on a whole other subject but personally I'm pretty upset if the Yankees actually passed up on an offer from the Marlins of Beckett for Wang and Duncan as reported by the Daily News. I absolutely love Duncan, and to not pull the trigger on that offer in my opinion would be a mistake given the talent on the table.
Taking on Lowell's remaining $18 million, in addition to Beckett's upcoming raise in salary, while trading away young core players, and addressing none of the team's identified need postions, would have been a foolish, short-sighted move by Cashman.
BillBuckner
11-22-05, 06:42 PM
Wang and Beckett are the same age, essentially. Beckett has a longer record and that WS stint, but Wang did prove himself well.
Lowell and Duncan in no way match, youth and future vs. bad contract and faltering.
In no way do I see that being fair.
Wang + B level for Beckett makes more sense to me.
If it was a question of trading Wang for Beckett straight up, then I would definently do it. The problem is, Florida wants more.
YankeeFan1
11-22-05, 06:48 PM
Sorry to go off on a whole other subject but personally I'm pretty upset if the Yankees actually passed up on an offer from the Marlins of Beckett for Wang and Duncan as reported by the Daily News. I absolutely love Duncan, and to not pull the trigger on that offer in my opinion would be a mistake given the talent on the table. Considering that the Marlins got a better offer from the Rangers (Blalock and their top pitching prospect) and turned it down for the lesser Red Sox offer, the Yankees even less appealing offer of Wang and Duncan probably didn't stand a change.
Considering that the Marlins got a better offer from the Rangers (Blalock and their top pitching prospect) and turned it down for the lesser Red Sox offer, the Yankees even less appealing offer of Wang and Duncan probably didn't stand a change.
Why is Blalock and Diamond/Danks more appealing? Neither Diamond nor Danks is as good as Sanchez. Blalock plays a position that they want Cabrera to play and is coming off a horrible year. Ramirez plays a position that was unfilled. Ramirez makes less money than Blalock (obviously now a consideration).
whalers
11-22-05, 10:13 PM
What about Todd Jones. I guees he isn't part of the fire sale since he is a free agent but he would be a definite upgrade in the bullpen. I could see him working the 7th inning if the Yankees could keep Gordon. He's not exciting but he is very effective.
ring403
11-22-05, 10:57 PM
Well this thread has exploded into a debate about the prospect worth of Beckett. My original hope was that we could come up with some creative ideas to acquire helpful players without breaking the minor league bank. What do you guys think about Mota, Delgado, LoDuca, Villone and the other potential dealable parts?
http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1123,0,1128232.story?coll=nyc-sports-headlines
Just as the Red Sox capitalized on the Marlins' fire sale, the Yankees held discussions with Florida, who have a pair of veteran relievers in Guillermo Mota and Ron Villone and a centerfielder in Juan Pierre. The relievers appear to be the more likely target.
nyg02005
11-22-05, 11:06 PM
getting villone and mota is better for the yankees than getting beckett.
NewEraYanks2527
11-22-05, 11:16 PM
getting villone and mota is better for the yankees than getting beckett.
How about that, maybe a good lefty and a good righty in the pen? Well I'll be damned, dont that just solve a few problems and fix a few holes. I'm not saying the bullpen would be complete but it is a step in the right direction. Considering what the Sox got for Beckett and Lowell, Mota and Villone should come over for Womack and Wayne Franklin.
Kulish29
11-22-05, 11:22 PM
I'm LOVING the idea of getting Villone and Mota. If they cant get both, I'd choose Mota.
He could set-up for Mo and then possibly take over when Mo retires.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-22-05, 11:26 PM
I'm LOVING the idea of getting Villone and Mota. If they cant get both, I'd choose Mota.
He could set-up for Mo and then possibly take over when Mo retires.
I'd love to have them both as well, but did you watch Mota when he was closing for Florida? He fell on his face and forced them to dreg up Todd Jones to save games (and he did a nice job). Some setup men can become very good closers (like Mo and K-Rod), others just don't get the job done as well (like Dotel, prior to getting hurt, and based on last year, Mota). I think that Villone might be the easier get of the 2.
Steph19
11-22-05, 11:26 PM
Villonne/Mota would be nice... I wonder how much they make and what you all think they would cost to get here?
NewEraYanks2527
11-22-05, 11:30 PM
I'd love to have them both as well, but did you watch Mota when he was closing for Florida? He fell on his face and forced them to dreg up Todd Jones to save games (and he did a nice job). Some setup men can become very good closers (like Mo and K-Rod), others just don't get the job done as well (like Dotel, prior to getting hurt, and based on last year, Mota). I think that Villone might be the easier get of the 2.
Mota is best suited in the setup role, no question about it. Villone would probably the easier of the two to get but I'd like to have them both. Then maybe sign another bullpen arm (Farnsworth, Looper) a lefty specialist (Myers, Rincon) and the bullpen would be in pretty good shape without paying an arm and a leg. Also promote from within, give Colter Bean a shot as a 5th-6th inning guy see what the guy has. I really think the Yankee can produce a very effective bullpen without paying a king's ransom and with Cahsmen in the drivers seat I think things will be fine.
ring403
11-22-05, 11:33 PM
Villonne/Mota would be nice... I wonder how much they make and what you all think they would cost to get here?
Mota made $2.6 million last season, and is arbitration eligible.
Villone is signed through 2006 for $2 million.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005_01_19_mlbcontracts_archive.html
If it was a question of trading Wang for Beckett straight up, then I would definently do it. The problem is, Florida wants more.
Its not that Florida wanted more. They had no real desire to get rid of Josh Beckett. The real motivation behind trading Beckett was getting rid of Lowell's salary, and dangling Beckett is the only way Florida could get another team to take Lowell. They never even conceived of trading away Beckett without Lowell being involved.
Considering that the Marlins have a grand total of 2 starters ready for 2006 (Willis and Vargas) -- we can assume that they will want pitching in exchange for those relievers. Perhaps Aaron Small, Matt DeSalvo or Sean Henn can be used.
knickfan23
11-23-05, 12:48 AM
If it was a question of trading Wang for Beckett straight up, then I would definently do it. The problem is, Florida wants more.
Here was what FLA was looking for:
Still, when the Marlins closed in on a deal over the weekend - first with Texas before the Red Sox met the Marlins' asking price - the Yankees did investigate. The Marlins asked for starter Chien-Ming Wang in addition to prospects, including the Class AA third baseman Eric Duncan, but indicated that they still preferred the Red Sox deal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/23/sports/baseball/23yanks.html
ryanthe13th
11-23-05, 02:38 AM
Do you think that Florida, since they're trying to shed their high priced contracts, would be willing to deal D-Train of Miguel Cabrera?
Yankees1962
11-23-05, 02:40 AM
Do you think that Florida, since they're trying to shed their high priced contracts, would be willing to deal D-Train of Miguel Cabrera?
Neither player is making a lot of money so the answer is no.
I Love Wang
11-23-05, 02:41 AM
Do you think that Florida, since they're trying to shed their high priced contracts, would be willing to deal D-Train of Miguel Cabrera?
Between them they made $758,500 this year. There is no way either of them are traded.
ryanthe13th
11-23-05, 02:50 AM
Between them they made $758,500 this year. There is no way either of them are traded.
Wow. I thought they were raking in a lot more dough. When do they become Free Agents? :)
Yankees1962
11-23-05, 03:20 AM
Wow. I thought they were raking in a lot more dough. When do they become Free Agents? :)
How about after the 2009 season?
ryanthe13th
11-23-05, 03:40 AM
How about after the 2009 season?
I guess I can put that on the back burner for a while.
ring403
11-23-05, 06:49 AM
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/11327247436360.xml&coll=1
The Yankees do not have interest in Delgado, Castillo or Lo Duca, but they are interested in a pair of Marlins relief pitchers -- right-hander Guillermo Mota and left-hander Ron Villone. Frustrated by their inability so far to convince top free-agent relievers such as B.J. Ryan, Scott Eyre, Bob Howry and Jose Mesa to sign with them, the Yankees are exploring trade options and have told the Marlins to keep them in mind if and when they decide to deal Mota or Villone.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1132701011126&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&t=TS_Home
This author says Yanks may try and see what Delgado costs....(bottom of article)
I'm not sure I like the idea of having a ton of DH's but if we get Delgado, he needs to be DH, Giambi is better hitter when hes playing both ways
jnewmark
11-23-05, 07:39 AM
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/11327247436360.xml&coll=1
Jose Mesa ? WTF !!!!!!!!!!!
The Dynasty
11-23-05, 09:07 AM
Villone is the only guy that intrigues me on that team that's available.
As with Pierre, the question is not a question of peak, it's a question of what happens from here on out. Giambi possesses a different skill set than Pierre (one that is more condusive to aging btw.).
Pierre is an offensive player who needs the ability to slap at the ball, and run hard. As he ages, his legs get a bit heavier, and he slows down. It happens to everyone. So his other offensive skills need to come in play, and he really does not have any others, once his legs slow down.
And forget him defensively. He runs a lot of stuff down, but Bernie has a much better arm.
Taking on Lowell's remaining $18 million, in addition to Beckett's upcoming raise in salary, while trading away young core players, and addressing none of the team's identified need postions, would have been a foolish, short-sighted move by Cashman.
And that's why he did not do it.
Bosox added Beckett and Lowell. They may lose Damon, probably trade away Wells, and may trade Manny, with no hope of getting equal value back.
Does not sound like they added much, especially when who knows what they get from Schilling here on out.
The Dynasty
11-23-05, 09:33 AM
Now that I think about it, I want nothing from that firesale, unless we can flip 'em for something better.
sounds like the yanks arent benefitting from the sale at all at this point
Mota made $2.6 million last season, and is arbitration eligible.
Villone is signed through 2006 for $2 million.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005_01_19_mlbcontracts_archive.html
Mota is 32, and Vallone is 35. Actually, that was last year, so make that 33 and 36 for 2006.
I would love Vallone, although Mota was a fine set-up guy. He could not handle the closers role, but otherwise, he is excellent in the set-up role.
sounds like the yanks arent benefitting from the sale at all at this point
I'd rather not benefit from the sale than get ripped off.
NYDCYankee
11-23-05, 09:57 AM
Any idea what they might demand for these two?
whalers
11-23-05, 10:12 AM
I know he's not flashy but what would be the harm in trying to sign Todd Jones. He was very effective closing last year after Mota went down and he would add needed depth to the bullpen. Dont get me wrong I like the idea of trading for Villone or Mota but this might cost less.
Yanks Lifer
11-23-05, 11:33 AM
Any idea what they might demand for these two?
Well considering it's the Yankees and the Marlins just traded a 3B and SP ... HHHMMM .... A-Rod and Mussina of course!! But, the Yanks WILL have to pick up 99.99995% of the salaries. :-notfunny
ShaneTravis
11-24-05, 07:00 AM
"Others apparently on their way out are Juan Pierre, Guillermo Mota and Ron Villone. The Yankees have initiated contact with the Marlins about acquiring the two relievers, who combined will make approximately $5.5 million in 2006."
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-marlspec24nov24,0,4180547.story?coll=sfla-sports-front
AMYanks
11-24-05, 10:03 PM
You can cross Mota off the list of Marlins the Yankees are interested. He's been included in the Beckett trade to the Sox.
ICEBERG18
11-24-05, 10:03 PM
"Others apparently on their way out are Juan Pierre, Guillermo Mota and Ron Villone. The Yankees have initiated contact with the Marlins about acquiring the two relievers, who combined will make approximately $5.5 million in 2006."
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-marlspec24nov24,0,4180547.story?coll=sfla-sports-front
The Boston Red Sox and Florida Marlins tonight announced a trade in which the Red Sox will receive right-handed pitcher Josh Beckett, third baseman Mike Lowell and righthander Guillermo Mota in exchange for infielder Hanley Ramirez, righthander Anibal Sanchez, righthander Jesus Delgado and righthander Harvey Garcia.
NewEraYanks2527
11-24-05, 10:37 PM
................ the Marlins, glad to see they basically are throwing in Mota for the hell of it. I would have liked to see him come to the Yanks, but oh well, maybe he continues his downward spiral, but seriously ................ the Marlins.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-24-05, 10:38 PM
The Boston Red Sox and Florida Marlins tonight announced a trade in which the Red Sox will receive right-handed pitcher Josh Beckett, third baseman Mike Lowell and righthander Guillermo Mota in exchange for infielder Hanley Ramirez, righthander Anibal Sanchez, righthander Jesus Delgado and righthander Harvey Garcia.
Yeah, that got a giant WTF! from me when I saw it. But I'm sure this is all just part of what Cashman was saying when he was discussing that nothing that has occured this off-season was surprising to him. Wonder if it's the same surprise that the captain of the Titanic had after he hit the iceberg. "That we are taking on water and will sink soon isn't a surprise to me". Is this supposed to be comforting?
Murcer'swerebest
11-24-05, 10:50 PM
Count me as not worried about Guillermo Mota going to Boston. They guy's 2 years from having been really good. He's 33 years old next year. He's pitched in 386 games in his career. He walked almost 4.5 guys per 9 innings last year and he couldn't beat out Todd Jones for the Marlins' closer job. I said this in another thread. Guillermo Mota = Felix Rodriguez. Is that so scary for Boston's opponents?
Yankees1962
11-24-05, 10:51 PM
Yeah, that got a giant WTF! from me when I saw it. But I'm sure this is all just part of what Cashman was saying when he was discussing that nothing that has occured this off-season was surprising to him. Wonder if it's the same surprise that the captain of the Titanic had after he hit the iceberg. "That we are taking on water and will sink soon isn't a surprise to me". Is this supposed to be comforting?
We'll see how Mota does away from those big NL ballparks he pitched in. This is no biggie to me, but I see some Yankee fans getting nervous. How about that?
Yeah, that got a giant WTF! from me when I saw it. But I'm sure this is all just part of what Cashman was saying when he was discussing that nothing that has occured this off-season was surprising to him. Wonder if it's the same surprise that the captain of the Titanic had after he hit the iceberg. "That we are taking on water and will sink soon isn't a surprise to me". Is this supposed to be comforting?
Yeah you are right, this offseason is exactly like the Titanic sinking.
Not only was his quote before this happened, but what would you have liked the Yankees to have done?
I see options.....
A) Wang, Cano, Duncan, Hughes go to Florida. It doesn't matter who we get, but that the Sawx don't get Beckett and Mota.
B) The Yankees launch a covert (or public) operation to kill Beckett and Mota so their trade value decreases
C) The Yankees file a protest to complain about how retarded the Marlins were to not just go back to Texas with Beckett instead of giving the Red Sox a free Mota
D) Cashman instead says, "I actually didn't see that one coming," to make you happy
The Scooby Doo Option) Wilma and Shaggy find documents lying on the ground that prove collusion between the Sox and Marlins. John McCain goes batsh*t insane
Whatever unbelievable leverage the Red Sox seem to have with the Marlins this offseason has nothing to do with the Yankees, as we are trying not to trade Wang and Cano just in any old random deal just to frustrate John Henry. The Sox's gamble (or maybe not such a gamble) worked, and theres nothing we can do about it except achieve our own goals this offseason.
The Marlins gave away Mota for NOTHING. It is impossible for me to understand how every team in baseball will charge the Yankees Cano and Wang for their worst minor leaguer yet the Marlins simply cannot pile enough talent on the Red Sox.
Baseball defies the basic rule of economics. There is such a thing as a free lunch and it is called a phone call to the Marlins office. Apparently the less you offer the more they give you.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-24-05, 10:59 PM
We'll see how Mota does away from those big NL ballparks he pitched in. This is no biggie to me, but I see some Yankee fans getting nervous. How about that?
Regardless, this was a player the Yankees have apparently targeted, and now that is off the board. Personally, I'm not nervous in as much as I'm getting pissed because the best options, to me at least, seem to be disappearing off the boards on several fronts, and the Yankees have some significant holes that need to be filled and they are either going to overpay for the wrong thing (like Johnny Damon) or bring in someone who isn't that good and try to play it off (I'm sorry, I"m not on this Jason Michaels bandwaggon). The Yankees need setup help, and Mota was one of the better available options. And he was essentially, thrown in to this Boston trade, as we sit around and keep "monitoring" things. This was a weak class to begin with in free agency and trades, and what scraps were available to help are quickly dissappearing, and we are sitting on our hands and pretending to act as if Bubba Crosby in center and Jaret Wright as a setup man are really the things this team needs to be better in 2006. I know it's only Thanksgiving, but I'm not seeing alot of hope thus far.
The Marlins gave away Mota for NOTHING. It is impossible for me to understand how every team in baseball will charge the Yankees Cano and Wang for their worst minor leaguer yet the Marlins simply cannot pile enough talent on the Red Sox.
Baseball defies the basic rule of economics. There is such a thing as a free lunch and it is called a phone call to the Marlins office. Apparently the less you offer the more they give you.
The only thing I can really think of is that the Marlins were trying to dump Mota's salary anyway. Even knowing this, its hard to believe they didn't just call Boston's bluff, if it wasn't a bluff do the Texas trade, and then pry something out of the Yanks for Mota. They could have gotten more than they did, and I have no idea how they didn't see it.
Regardless, this was a player the Yankees have apparently targeted, and now that is off the board. Personally, I'm not nervous in as much as I'm getting pissed because the best options, to me at least, seem to be disappearing off the boards on several fronts, and the Yankees have some significant holes that need to be filled and they are either going to overpay for the wrong thing (like Johnny Damon) or bring in someone who isn't that good and try to play it off (I'm sorry, I"m not on this Jason Michaels bandwaggon). The Yankees need setup help, and Mota was one of the better available options. And he was essentially, thrown in to this Boston trade, as we sit around and keep "monitoring" things. This was a weak class to begin with in free agency and trades, and what scraps were available to help are quickly dissappearing, and we are sitting on our hands and pretending to act as if Bubba Crosby in center and Jaret Wright as a setup man are really the things this team needs to be better in 2006. I know it's only Thanksgiving, but I'm not seeing alot of hope thus far.
We were already asking about Mota. Trying our best to get him. What do you suggest we should have done??
SINCE77 2
11-24-05, 11:01 PM
None of this bothers me.Yankees need a setup man, a solid middle relief guy, a CF, and a DH/4th OF. We can't afford any more oft injured pitchers, we have a 3B, and Mota doesn't appear to be a good fit for NY. I don't see a problem here. Stay the course Brian.
All I'm saying is that the Marlins now have to give us Ron Villone for whatever piece of gum we find on the floor of the Clippers restroom.
We were already asking about Mota. Trying our best to get him. What do you suggest we should have done??
Apparently we should have given them a really bad offer and they would have thrown in Dontrelle.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-24-05, 11:04 PM
Yeah, the fact that they just threw in Mota was just stupid. They could of gotten something of value for him...
SINCE77 2
11-24-05, 11:06 PM
All I'm saying is that the Marlins now have to give us Ron Villone for whatever piece of gum we find on the floor of the Clippers restroom.
He will also cost Cano and Wang.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-24-05, 11:13 PM
We were already asking about Mota. Trying our best to get him. What do you suggest we should have done??
I'm thinking for the dog@#$@# that Mota was apparently thrown into that deal for, the Yankees could have put up something else to bring in a Villone and Mota at the same time. I have to believe that Florida was going to take someone other than Cano, Wang, Hughes, or Duncan. When Jose friggin Mesa is turning you down, and the Yankees are making despiration inquiries to the A's about Kotsay (knowing full well what they are going to say), than to me, things just are not going well.
I'm thinking for the dog@#$@# that Mota was apparently thrown into that deal for, the Yankees could have put up something else to bring in a Villone and Mota at the same time. I have to believe that Florida was going to take someone other than Cano, Wang, Hughes, or Duncan. When Jose friggin Mesa is turning you down, and the Yankees are making despiration inquiries to the A's about Kotsay (knowing full well what they are going to say), than to me, things just are not going well.
As is stated in articles posted not too much earlier in this very thread, we were offering somebody for Mota and Villone. As you know Cano and Wang are untouchable and trading Duncan or Hughes for relievers that aren't BJ Ryan or better quality is retarded, who do you think we should have given up? There's nothing we can do about other people making a deal. We can only offer more money to beat the Red Sox when competing for free agents (Contreras, Matsui, etc).
I'm thinking for the dog@#$@# that Mota was apparently thrown into that deal for, the Yankees could have put up something else to bring in a Villone and Mota at the same time. I have to believe that Florida was going to take someone other than Cano, Wang, Hughes, or Duncan. When Jose friggin Mesa is turning you down, and the Yankees are making despiration inquiries to the A's about Kotsay (knowing full well what they are going to say), than to me, things just are not going well.
If Cashman hasn't pieced a good roster together by January I think we may need to stage a coup and install a provisional administration.
JapanJobbers
11-24-05, 11:30 PM
All I'm saying is that the Marlins now have to give us Ron Villone for whatever piece of gum we find on the floor of the Clippers restroom.
I'm sure he's available. I think he ends up back in Seattle though.
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-24-05, 11:35 PM
As is stated in articles posted not too much earlier in this very thread, we were offering somebody for Mota and Villone. As you know Cano and Wang are untouchable and trading Duncan or Hughes for relievers that aren't BJ Ryan or better quality is retarded, who do you think we should have given up? There's nothing we can do about other people making a deal. We can only offer more money to beat the Red Sox when competing for free agents (Contreras, Matsui, etc).
I agree with you, however, apparently Harvey Garcia was the one name in the deal who wasn't there before, so my assumption is that Garcia was added to get Mota thrown in (possibly with some money considerations) and while I wouldn't know Harvey Garcia if I tripped over him, a quick look at some Red Sox prospect rankings that I've done show he's not even a top 20 prospect in their organization (though he was officially added to their 40 man roster a few weeks ago). The fact is, the Yankees could have gotten some more names thrown around from Florida, or at least you'd think that they should have. If the Yankee tax remains in effect, than there isn't much we can do but jump in on free agency...where free agents don't seem to be too eager to take our money.
ring403
11-24-05, 11:47 PM
When Jose friggin Mesa is turning you down, and the Yankees are making despiration inquiries to the A's about Kotsay (knowing full well what they are going to say), than to me, things just are not going well.
That is the way Cashman has operated for years. He talks to the agents for every single FA player who the Yankees have some level of interest in, and speaks to virtually every GM about any potential trade possibilities. He wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't. Of course, not every player is going to want to come to New York, and not every trade proposal is going to be accepted. The Yankees have put together a list of players they want, and how much they will be willing to pay for each in terms of money and/or players. Cashman's job is to stick to the plan they have laid out, and not be distracted by what the Red Sox, or Mets, or anyone else is doing. I have every confidence that he is doing just that.
(The Scooby Doo Option) Wilma and Shaggy find documents lying on the ground that prove collusion between the Sox and Marlins. John McCain goes batsh*t insane
:-rofl-: :-rofl-: :-rofl-:
I found a serious flaw with this option......first of all Velma is the nerdy chick from Scooby Doo & everyone knows that when the gang splits up Shag and Scoob always stick together and Velma always goes with Fred & Daphne to make sure Fred "keeps it in his pants".
None of this bothers me.Yankees need a setup man, a solid middle relief guy, a CF, and a DH/4th OF. We can't afford any more oft injured pitchers, we have a 3B, and Mota doesn't appear to be a good fit for NY. I don't see a problem here. Stay the course Brian.
AMEN! Everyone is worrying about nothing. All 3 of the players that Boston picked up have some sort of issue - Beckett with the blisters, & Lowell & Mota have declined in recent years. Had the Yankees blown the farm on these 3 guys there would be 10 threads whining and crying about the move. I have full faith in Cash (remember he is the guy everyone cried about re-signing just a couple short weeks ago?) that we will have a decent CF and a refurbished pen come spring training.
AMYanks
11-25-05, 12:54 AM
That is the way Cashman has operated for years. He talks to the agents for every single FA player who the Yankees have some level of interest in, and speaks to virtually every GM about any potential trade possibilities. He wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't. Of course, not every player is going to want to come to New York, and not every trade proposal is going to be accepted. The Yankees have put together a list of players they want, and how much they will be willing to pay for each in terms of money and/or players. Cashman's job is to stick to the plan they have laid out, and not be distracted by what the Red Sox, or Mets, or anyone else is doing. I have every confidence that he is doing just that.
I agree. While many people will be upset with the lack of "action" by the Yankees thus far, I fully believe Cashman has a plan. Just because you hear rumors about names that might not be attractive (Mesa), it doesn't mean that we are interested in signing that certain player. I like that he is touching all his bases, and getting a feel for all of the free agents.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 03:46 AM
There is a report in one of the Boston papers that after reviewing Beckett's medical records, Boston had some concern so the Marlins threw in Mota in the deal, who they didn't want anyway in order to get the the deal done. IMO, I don't think Mota is a big deal and after we whack him around a few times, the rest of you will feel the same way.
Yanks21
11-25-05, 09:26 AM
Mota could be a huge pick-up, if he reverts to pre-2005 form...
27IsNext
11-25-05, 09:58 AM
The more I read, the more I'm thrilled about this trade. The Sox gave up Sanchez and another valuable trade chip to the Marlins for an injury-prone Beckett, a question mark and huge salary in Lowell, and Mota, a.k.a. F-Rod the Sequal. Thanks Boston.
No to Villone and his career 4.75 ERA.
Fabien Brandy
11-25-05, 10:02 AM
Mota could be a huge pick-up, if he reverts to pre-2005 form...
And Lowell could be a huge pick-up, if he reverts to pre-2005 form...
I agree with you, however, apparently Harvey Garcia was the one name in the deal who wasn't there before, so my assumption is that Garcia was added to get Mota thrown in (possibly with some money considerations) and while I wouldn't know Harvey Garcia if I tripped over him, a quick look at some Red Sox prospect rankings that I've done show he's not even a top 20 prospect in their organization (though he was officially added to their 40 man roster a few weeks ago). The fact is, the Yankees could have gotten some more names thrown around from Florida, or at least you'd think that they should have. If the Yankee tax remains in effect, than there isn't much we can do but jump in on free agency...where free agents don't seem to be too eager to take our money.
Mota was thrown in so the Marlins do not have to cut the deal with the Bosox. The Bosox have concerns with Beckett's injury history (9 times on the DL the past 5 years, 7 for blisters, and 2 for tendonitis in the shoulder - the right one). So Mota is the "sweetner" to get the deal to become official.
Not a big deal. I guarantee that Beckett will be DLed at least once, if not twice, in 2006. And Mota pitching outside of LA and Florida (some really big parks) will be interesting, to say the least.
highheat2014
11-25-05, 10:42 AM
The more I read, the more I'm thrilled about this trade. The Sox gave up Sanchez and another valuable trade chip to the Marlins for an injury-prone Beckett, a question mark and huge salary in Lowell, and Mota, a.k.a. F-Rod the Sequal. Thanks Boston.
No to Villone and his career 4.75 ERA.
Well there's talk of trading Clement to MIL for Overbay (the Brewers have to trade him due to Fielder), meaning either Lowell/Youkilis will be traded. Even if they have to eat some of the money I'd trade Lowell to MIN and hopefully get Scott Baker in return. Hopefully Beckett comes into his own with the Sox, and in 2003-trade deadline 04 Mota was arguably the best setup man in the game. Gordon was probably a little better in 04. Mota had a 1.86 ERA in 10 apperances this year before being shelved and then came back and stunk up the joint, so it remains to be seen what Mota the Sox are getting.
Mota could be a huge pick-up, if he reverts to pre-2005 form...
You mean like 2000, 2001, or 2002? It seems to me that Mota had a good 170 inning run (perhaps because of ballpark or pitching coach or some combination), wasn't all that great before that, got worked real hard in the process, and now that he's out of that ideal situation, he's turned into what he was before, but with more walks.
He isn't FROD II. FROD is basically a fastball only pitcher who faded when the fastball faded but was consistently good before then.
Even if they have to eat some of the money I'd trade Lowell to MIN and hopefully get Scott Baker in return.
I think the Baker rumor basically involves someone paying not part, but basically all of Lowell's contract...it would be like drafting a player and giving him a $15M signing bonus, and that's if the rumor is even true and the guy who wrote the article wasn't just making up names.
AMEN! Everyone is worrying about nothing. All 3 of the players that Boston picked up have some sort of issue - Beckett with the blisters, & Lowell & Mota have declined in recent years. Had the Yankees blown the farm on these 3 guys there would be 10 threads whining and crying about the move. I have full faith in Cash (remember he is the guy everyone cried about re-signing just a couple short weeks ago?) that we will have a decent CF and a refurbished pen come spring training.
You are right (especially about the whining threads if we would have made this deal). We will be fine!
Yankyfan
11-25-05, 03:33 PM
It s over Johnnie!! It's over!! Sometimes the best moves turn out to be the ones you don't make.
highheat2014
11-25-05, 04:38 PM
Lowell and Mota haven't declined gradually. They just had one year of absolute suckitude so it remains to be seen if they can bounce back. An example of gradually declining would be Piazza; the team that signs him knows what to expect.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 04:43 PM
Lowell and Mota haven't declined gradually. They just had one year of absolute suckitude so it remains to be seen if they can bounce back. An example of gradually declining would be Piazza; the team that signs him knows what to expect.
Mota had suck years around 2000/2001 seasons and now, he's going to be pitching in a hitter's ballpark against stronger lineups. In time, we'll see how good he really is.
ring403
11-26-05, 09:02 AM
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1132987693122660.xml&coll=1
The Yankees made no serious efforts to get Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell from the Marlins before they were traded to the division-rival Red Sox, but they were disappointed to see the Marlins include right-handed reliever Guillermo Mota in the deal as a late throw-in. The Yankees had been in discussions with the Marlins about Mota, whom they viewed as a possible solution to their need for a setup reliever. But the Red Sox, citing concerns about Beckett's shoulder, threatened to back out of the deal at the last minute if the Marlins did not include Mota.
The Yankees continue to express interest in left-handed Marlins reliever Ron Villone. But it's unclear how much more cost-cutting the Marlins need to do, since the Boston deal and the deal that sent Carlos Delgado to the Mets have combined to clear about $30 million from their 2006 payroll already.
YankeeFan1
11-26-05, 09:10 AM
I'm surprised the Marlins didn't add Villone to their deal with the Red Sox since they were basically giving players away.
BronxByTheBay
11-26-05, 10:04 AM
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1132987693122660.xml&coll=1
The Marlins are such morons. God knows that if the Sox backed out, NO ONE else in baseball would have possibly been interested in Beckett.
I swear, if it weren't for dumb franchises, the Red Sox would have no luck at all.
ring403
11-26-05, 10:08 AM
The Marlins are such morons. God knows that if the Sox backed out, NO ONE else in baseball would have possibly been interested in Beckett.
I swear, if it weren't for dumb franchises, the Red Sox would have no luck at all.
Agreed. It was a nice bluff by the Sox. I have little doubt that they would still have went through with the deal if Florida had refused to include Mota.
Agreed. It was a nice bluff by the Sox. I have little doubt that they would still have went through with the deal if Florida had refused to include Mota.
Yet you honestly have to question why the Red Sox would want to pay $4M or so to Mota. Sure, they got an extra major leaguer, but is he a) actually any good and b) worth what he is going to make.
Yet you honestly have to question why the Red Sox would want to pay $4M or so to Mota. Sure, they got an extra major leaguer, but is he a) actually any good and b) worth what he is going to make.
Mota was only paid 2.6M in 2005, is he making more than that in 2006? It's a decent gamble...it's very unlikely that he's worse than Mantei, or Halama, or Embree, so even if he replicates his 2005 performance, he's an improvement over what the sox had last year.
Munson's 'Stash
11-26-05, 01:54 PM
If the BJ Ryan signing goes down as rumored, getting Mota will probably wind up being a good move. The market for releivers is already going nuts (thank the Cubs for this one); teams are going to wind up paying league average releivers far too much for too many years. Getting a cost controlled player on a short term obligation is not a bad move (especially when it costs "dogsh*t").
From what I've read, the Marlins are very high on Hanley Ramirez. He's going to start at SS for the Marlins, and given the SS market this year I don't see them wanting to haggle too much to keep from throwing in a RP they didn't care much for anyway.
But a couple of other teams have been interested in Mota (the Rangers wanted him back if they included extra prospects), so the Red Sox could probably flip him without too much effort.
diehardyankeefan
11-26-05, 02:09 PM
Mota was only paid 2.6M in 2005, is he making more than that in 2006? It's a decent gamble...it's very unlikely that he's worse than Mantei, or Halama, or Embree, so even if he replicates his 2005 performance, he's an improvement over what the sox had last year.
Mota did horrible last year and he had a shot to be the Marlins closer but he failed to do that. Mota is a better set up man then a closer. Mota's era was 4.70 and a 1.45 WHIP which is not good.
Mota was only paid 2.6M in 2005, is he making more than that in 2006? It's a decent gamble...it's very unlikely that he's worse than Mantei, or Halama, or Embree, so even if he replicates his 2005 performance, he's an improvement over what the sox had last year.
He is arbitration eligible and will get a healthy raise becuase that's just the way it works. The issue then becomes not whether he's better than Mantei, but if there was a better way to spend all of that money. Mota has basically had one solid 1.5 year stretch in his career, and he got worked really hard in that stretch.
diehardyankeefan
11-26-05, 02:16 PM
He is arbitration eligible and will get a healthy raise becuase that's just the way it works. The issue then becomes not whether he's better than Mantei, but if there was a better way to spend all of that money. Mota has basically had one solid 1.5 year stretch in his career, and he got worked really hard in that stretch.
Yeah, he did well in Los Angeles as a setup man for Gagne, but Foulke is not as good as Gagne.
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