View Full Version : Yanks preparing offer for Gordon
Enter_Sandman_42
11-05-05, 03:48 PM
Yankees: Team preparing an offer for Gordon
by Fanball Staff - Fanball.com
Saturday, November 5, 2005
WWW.fanball.com
News
The Yankees are preparing a free-agent offer to right-hander Tom Gordon, who has been Rivera's primary setup man for the past two seasons. But Gordon is expected to draw interest from other teams, possibly including the Mets, who are looking for a closer, reports the Newark Star-Ledger. "We'd love to have Tommy Gordon back if at all possible," Cashman said. "But we're going to have a lot of competition for him."
jbauer2485
11-05-05, 03:53 PM
Gordon - Ryan - MO
Sounds good to me.
Enter_Sandman_42
11-05-05, 03:54 PM
Gordon - Ryan - MO
Sounds good to me.
indeed, we'd go from probably one of the worst pens, to one of the best
7th/8th/9th Gordon-Ryan-Mo? LIGHTS OUT BABY
They better be offering him arbitration.
rightfielder21
11-05-05, 04:43 PM
They better be offering him arbitration.
Agreed...
JeffWeaverFan
11-05-05, 05:20 PM
They better be offering him arbitration.
They will.
27IsNext
11-05-05, 05:26 PM
The Yankees are incompetent if it's not an offer of arbitration.
yank4life2005
11-05-05, 05:52 PM
Let Gordon walk as the Mets are interested in him. If he signs with the Mets then we get there #18 Draft pick.
Enter_Sandman_42
11-05-05, 05:55 PM
Let Gordon walk as the Mets are interested in him. If he signs with the Mets then we get there #18 Draft pick.
I would rather a dominant bullpen than an 18th overall draft pick
yank4life2005
11-05-05, 06:00 PM
I would rather a dominant bullpen than an 18th overall draft pick
Gordon will turn 38 and we need to get younger. He will probably want at least a 2 year deal. There are better options besides Gordon to fill the 7th inning once we get BJ Ryan for the 8th.
Guys like Howry, Farnsworth & Tavarez.
Let's see how this plays out. I'm still on the fence about Gordon. While he has been a great set-up man and makes our bullpen strong, I'm almost tempted to get the draft picks and sign a FA. I don't know though...
yankeebot
11-05-05, 06:32 PM
Gordon will turn 38 and we need to get younger. He will probably want at least a 2 year deal. There are better options besides Gordon to fill the 7th inning once we get BJ Ryan for the 8th.
Guys like Howry, Farnsworth & Tavarez.Ryan is certainly not a sure thing. I would like to retain Gordon and if we do end up with Ryan consider using Gordon in a trade later. I would hate to pass on keeping Gordon only to fail in the FA hunt.
Gordon is in decline.
Offer him arbitration, but then let him go and take the draft pick.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-05-05, 06:42 PM
I can't see Gordon staying around this year considering what other teams are probably offering. Offer arb and take the picks...
Fabien Brandy
11-05-05, 06:44 PM
Are the Mets likely to sign another top free agent? If they grab a Konerko or someone higher than Gordon than that pick would lose some value.
I'm definitely on board with letting Gordon either accept arbitration (nice one-year deal) or sign elsewhere for picks. A two-year deal with his age and workload is a bad idea.
32elston
11-05-05, 08:24 PM
I'd rather have Gordon back. A draft pick may not even make it to the majors, first round or not. You're talking about someone that hasn't even used a wooden bat if it is a hitter, may not have even moved out of the family home and you don't know what kind of lifestyle they make take up that could be bad for the team. Prospects are one thing, you can guage things better, but a draft pick is only potential and potential means squat.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 08:32 PM
I could'nt agree more with you.
I'd rather have Gordon back. A draft pick may not even make it to the majors, first round or not. You're talking about someone that hasn't even used a wooden bat if it is a hitter, may not have even moved out of the family home and you don't know what kind of lifestyle they make take up that could be bad for the team. Prospects are one thing, you can guage things better, but a draft pick is only potential and potential means squat.
indeed, we'd go from probably one of the worst pens, to one of the best
7th/8th/9th Gordon-Ryan-Mo? LIGHTS OUT BABY
Yup---and be able to go after 6 innining SP's :D
indeed, we'd go from probably one of the worst pens, to one of the best
7th/8th/9th Gordon-Ryan-Mo? LIGHTS OUT BABY
It is a wishful thinking. Gordon staying or not depends on Yankees signing B.J. Ryan or not. He wants to stay at Yankees only if he is the setup, not a 7 inning guy. B.J. Ryan also only go to Yankees if he is the setup under Mo. So we need to choose between Gordon or Ryan and I think the answer is pretty clear.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 09:05 PM
B.J is because Gordon has said that he wants a closers role, And they both have good numbers so it's a win win road right :looking:
It is a wishful thinking. Gordon staying or not depends on Yankees signing B.J. Ryan or not. He wants to stay at Yankees only if he is the setup, not a 7 inning guy. B.J. Ryan also only go to Yankees if he is the setup under Mo. So we need to choose between Gordon or Ryan and I think the answer is pretty clear.
AMYanks
11-05-05, 09:07 PM
I'm sure Cashman will make the offer thru arbitration.
However, I hope they only intend on him coming back as the 7th inning middle reliever. We need to push for Ryan at all costs, and now having Mazzilli and Guidry on the staff, that should only help us in our pursuit for him.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 09:11 PM
So you rather have B.J. as the setup man?
I'm sure Cashman will make the offer thru arbitration.
However, I hope they only intend on him coming back as the 7th inning middle reliever. We need to push for Ryan at all costs, and now having Mazzilli and Guidry on the staff, that should only help us in our pursuit for him.
YankeeStripes
11-05-05, 09:12 PM
I still think that they should bring Sturtze back, too.
Sturtze, Gordon, Ryan, Rivera = unstoppable.
AMYanks
11-05-05, 09:13 PM
So you rather have B.J. as the setup man?
Yep. Ryan would only come here as the setup man, and we need him. He gives us an option that can take over for Rivera, he's a lot younger than Gordon, he's a lefty, etc. etc. etc.
AMYanks
11-05-05, 09:15 PM
I still think that they should bring Sturtze back, too.
Sturtze, Gordon, Ryan, Rivera = unstoppable.
Considering this would mean less work for Sturtze (he was very good for us before he was overworked), then I like this four man group.
It was posted a few days ago on this forum that the team was interested in Tavarez, someone who is pretty similar to Sturtze; and is probably a better pitcher than Sturtze, but would likely have relatively the same price tag. Either one would be a good piece to have.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 09:21 PM
Great point, after what happen to him this season at the end of it due to being over worked.
Considering this would mean less work for Sturtze (he was very good for us before he was overworked), then I like this four man group.
It was posted a few days ago on this forum that the team was interested in Tavarez, someone who is pretty similar to Sturtze; and is probably a better pitcher than Sturtze, but would likely have relatively the same price tag. Either one would be a good piece to have.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 09:24 PM
Me to, we all saw what he did the start of th season.
I still think that they should bring Sturtze back, too.
Sturtze, Gordon, Ryan, Rivera = unstoppable.
27IsNext
11-05-05, 09:46 PM
Sadly, I fear Torre's overuse of Tanyon Sturtze will have a lasting effect on him next season, much like what happened to Quantrill.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 09:51 PM
Could be, but Joe has always like Tanyon, He believes that Tanyon has good stuff from the start of the season and last.
Sadly, I fear Torre's overuse of Tanyon Sturtze will have a lasting effect on him next season, much like what happened to Quantrill.
AMYanks
11-05-05, 09:54 PM
Sadly, I fear Torre's overuse of Tanyon Sturtze will have a lasting effect on him next season, much like what happened to Quantrill.
It's quite possible.
38Special
11-05-05, 09:58 PM
While at the same time realizing that Sturtze had a career of less than mediocrity, before having a stretch of maybe 2 months of above average pitching
AMYanks
11-05-05, 10:01 PM
While at the same time realizing that Sturtze had a career of less than mediocrity, before having a stretch of maybe 2 months of above average pitching
He did have an amazing month of May. Other than that, no, he was not very good (pretty good June).
Although I think Torre overused Sturtze similar to the way he overused Quantrill in 2004, I don't want him back.
I'd like the Yanks to sign Howry instead of Sturtze.
Babe Rules
11-05-05, 10:41 PM
Gordon is in decline.
Offer him arbitration, but then let him go and take the draft pick.
Agreed.
27IsNext
11-05-05, 11:45 PM
While at the same time realizing that Sturtze had a career of less than mediocrity, before having a stretch of maybe 2 months of above average pitching
He was lights out up until the start vs. Baltimore.
ring403
11-06-05, 12:07 AM
Gordon is in decline.
Offer him arbitration, but then let him go and take the draft pick.As long as there is a suitable 7th inning option signed.
Even if the Yankees land Ryan, that still leaves Sturtze and company for anything prior to the 8th, and we all know how that worked out this season.
Arbitration + Omar Minaya's signing of Tom Gordon's 8 mil per year for 2-3 years to be a closer when he has lost half his fastball and 3/4 the break on his curve = Draft picks + my drunkenen happiness
As long as there is a suitable 7th inning option signed.
Even if the Yankees land Ryan, that still leaves Sturtze and company for anything prior to the 8th, and we all know how that worked out this season.
I want to sign Dotel and Farnsworth. I was concerned that in an article in Saturday's Star-Ledger (http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1131173732142230.xml&coll=1&thispage=2), a Yankee official was quoted as saying:
"...One team official said the team believed that it could fill the rest of its bullpen needs from within the organization if it were able to sign Ryan to a free-agent deal."
___
I can't imagine that there are enough quality major league ready arms to be able to do that.
27IsNext
11-06-05, 01:06 AM
I want to sign Dotel and Farnsworth. I was concerned that in an article in Saturday's Star-Ledger (http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1131173732142230.xml&coll=1&thispage=2), a Yankee official was quoted as saying:
"...One team official said the team believed that it could fill the rest of its bullpen needs from within the organization if it were able to sign Ryan to a free-agent deal."
___
I can't imagine that there are enough quality major league ready arms to be able to do that.
I don't want anything to do with one-year wonder Farnsworth. We tried that with Pavano and Wright. I wouldn't be opposed to signing Dotel.
If the Yankees are smart enough to convert Henn to a reliever, I think he'd do great. Hopefully the likes of Beam, Cox, and Schmidt (as well as Hoover if he's healthy and MAYBE Matt Smith) can move through the minors fairly quicky.
Matsui55 suggested signing a bunch of non-tendered FA relievers and letting them duke it out in Spring Training. Let's see if we can find another Sturtze or Small.
I don't want anything to do with one-year wonder Farnsworth. We tried that with Pavano and Wright. I wouldn't be opposed to signing Dotel.
If the Yankees are smart enough to convert Henn to a reliever, I think he'd do great. Hopefully the likes of Beam, Cox, and Schmidt (as well as Hoover if he's healthy and MAYBE Matt Smith) can move through the minors fairly quicky.
Matsui55 suggested signing a bunch of non-tendered FA relievers and letting them duke it out in Spring Training. Let's see if we can find another Sturtze or Small.
Farnsworth has a great arm. He would be able to pitch the 7th inning without much pressure. I wouldn't give him a huge deal, like Pavano or Wright. In order to replace Mo (that day is likely coming sooner than we would like to admit), we need as many quality arms as possible.
Sadly, Bean is never getting a shot here, and Cox and Schmidt are probably not ready.
Not tenders are far more of a crap shoot than Farnsworth. You can sign one or two in addition to Farnsworth and Dotel, not instead of.
27IsNext
11-06-05, 01:36 AM
Farnsworth has a great arm. He would be able to pitch the 7th inning without much pressure. I wouldn't give him a huge deal, like Pavano or Wright. In order to replace Mo (that day is likely coming sooner than we would like to admit), we need as many quality arms as possible.
Sadly, Bean is never getting a shot here, and Cox and Schmidt are probably not ready.
Not tenders are far more of a crap shoot than Farnsworth. You can sign one or two in addition to Farnsworth and Dotel, not instead of.
He's still only had one good year. That's the problem with relievers, they mostly tend to be random from year to year, which is why spending a lot of money and losing picks on them is not the smartest way to run a team. I'm sure he has a great arm (you're probably better at seeing that sort of thing than I), but I still wonder about his psyche, especially since he blew several games this year, according to some posters.
T.J. Beam, not AAA's Coulter Bean. Sleeper reliever who is doing a great job in the AFL. But I agree, he along with Cox and Schmidt probably aren't ready. However, they should be in the foreseeable future, re-enforcing my belief that overpaying for relievers isn't a good idea.
I do think we need two reliable arms in addition to Ryan, plus the non-tendered projects.
Clemens831
11-06-05, 02:17 AM
Gordon - Ryan - MO
Sounds good to me.
Well...except for the postseaon, maybe, when we find Flash puking in the 'pen.
Yankees1962
11-06-05, 02:24 AM
Farnsworth has a great arm. He would be able to pitch the 7th inning without much pressure. I wouldn't give him a huge deal, like Pavano or Wright. In order to replace Mo (that day is likely coming sooner than we would like to admit), we need as many quality arms as possible.
Sadly, Bean is never getting a shot here, and Cox and Schmidt are probably not ready.
Not tenders are far more of a crap shoot than Farnsworth. You can sign one or two in addition to Farnsworth and Dotel, not instead of.
What is your definition of a big deal? I think Farnsworth is looking to cash in as much as possible which means he's looking for a closer job or closer money. There are more than a few teams looking for a closer and unless you're going to pay that type of money then I don't think you're going to sign Farnsworth for the 7th inning. Off the top of my head, the following teams might need a closer.
Padres
Cubs
Mets
Phillies
Braves
Tigers
Indians
Blue Jays
Orioles
With such a market, guys like Hoffman, Ryan, Wagner, Gordon and Farnsworth are going to get good contracts and in some cases, more money then they deserve.
32elston
11-06-05, 02:37 AM
We should sign Gordon minus a no-trade and give Ryan an offer and if we can land him trade Gordon for prospects or a major leaguer. An 18th pick doesn't guarantee us anything.
Yankees1962
11-06-05, 02:40 AM
We should sign Gordon minus a no-trade and give Ryan an offer and if we can land him trade Gordon for prospects or a major leaguer. An 18th pick doesn't guarantee us anything.
Can the Yankees trade Gordon right after signing him because he did declare for free agency?
DontHateOnNumber2
11-06-05, 03:06 AM
I would love to get Gordon back. It's quite understood that he wants to be the closer and with Mo here it will not happen. I would like to think that the prospect of winning consistently and going deep into the postseason (which will hopefully happen this year) takes precedence over his wanting to be the closer.
Dooley Womack
11-06-05, 03:18 AM
The Yanks won't be able to carry both Gordon and BJ, even if they wanted to. Why would Gordon suddenly be interested in pitching the middle innings before BJ is handed the ball in the 8th (Gordon's old slot) when he's already stated he wants to close? He doesn't want to set-up Mo, let alone be a middle to 7th inning guy.
If the Yanks sign Gordon to a contract, I think that it's a sign that they aren't going after BJ, which is a huge mistake. If they are truly interested in BJ then Gordon will be out of the picture. Don't get your hopes up too high for a Gordon-BJ-Moe combo, because it's not happening.
He's still only had one good year. That's the problem with relievers, they mostly tend to be random from year to year, which is why spending a lot of money and losing picks on them is not the smartest way to run a team. I'm sure he has a great arm (you're probably better at seeing that sort of thing than I), but I still wonder about his psyche, especially since he blew several games this year, according to some posters.
T.J. Beam, not AAA's Coulter Bean. Sleeper reliever who is doing a great job in the AFL. But I agree, he along with Cox and Schmidt probably aren't ready. However, they should be in the foreseeable future, re-enforcing my belief that overpaying for relievers isn't a good idea.
I do think we need two reliable arms in addition to Ryan, plus the non-tendered projects.
Not a lot (in relative terms). Around what Gordon received when he signed here. On the Yankees, he wouldn't have to worry about big time pressure; he could pitch the seventh inning. In other words, he would be a well paid support guy.
Damn, I'm getting near-sighted. OK, but I don't think he's likely to get a shot this year. Same with Cox, Schmidt, and Smith. I hope I'm wrong. It's kind of ironic that Torre, who is often more concerned with experience than ability, wanted Guidry as his pitching coach even though he has no experience. I hope he is able to move past his own myopia when it comes to developing relievers, but I see no indication that he will.
In light of the fact that the pen has done the Yankees in over the last few seasons, I want to see a redundant bullpen for the upcoming season. As I said above, we don't know how long Mariano can continue to pitch at an elite level.
What is your definition of a big deal? I think Farnsworth is looking to cash in as much as possible which means he's looking for a closer job or closer money. There are more than a few teams looking for a closer and unless you're going to pay that type of money then I don't think you're going to sign Farnsworth for the 7th inning. Off the top of my head, the following teams might need a closer.
Padres
Cubs
Mets
Phillies
Braves
Tigers
Indians
Blue Jays
Orioles
With such a market, guys like Hoffman, Ryan, Wagner, Gordon and Farnsworth are going to get good contracts and in some cases, more money then they deserve.
Two years, $6 to 7 million in total. If he doesn't want it, he can sign elsewhere and enjoy the pressure of being a savior. On the Yankees, at least for next year, he would be just another quality arm.
On more than one occasion this year I looked up Gordon's stats and was shocked at how good they were. He just seemed to be not as good last year, and he must have allowed a lot of inherited runners to score.
Stupid Flanders
11-06-05, 08:03 AM
Gordon will turn 38 and we need to get younger. He will probably want at least a 2 year deal. There are better options besides Gordon to fill the 7th inning once we get BJ Ryan for the 8th.
Guys like Howry, Farnsworth & Tavarez.
All three? Ok.
Stupid Flanders
11-06-05, 08:06 AM
I would love to get Gordon back. It's quite understood that he wants to be the closer and with Mo here it will not happen. I would like to think that the prospect of winning consistently and going deep into the postseason (which will hopefully happen this year) takes precedence over his wanting to be the closer.
Gordon = great
Giles = crap.
OK dude
longtimeyankeefan
11-06-05, 02:07 PM
We should sign Gordon minus a no-trade and give Ryan an offer and if we can land him trade Gordon for prospects or a major leaguer. An 18th pick doesn't guarantee us anything.
If the Yankees sign Gordon to a contract, they can not trade his contract until June 15th without his consent - MLB CBA Article XX B (6)(a)
(6) Miscellaneous
(a) Any Club signing a contract after the expiration of the election
period with a Player under this Section B may not assign his
contract until after the next June 15. However, notwithstanding the
foregoing, such contract may be assigned for other Player contracts
and/or cash consideration of $50,000 or less prior to the next June
16 if the Player gives written consent to such transaction.
Yankees1962
11-06-05, 03:05 PM
If the Yankees sign Gordon to a contract, they can not trade his contract until June 15th without his consent - MLB CBA Article XX B (6)(a)
That's what I thought.
32elston
11-06-05, 06:07 PM
That's what I thought.
Yeah, I thought that too, but my feeling is Gordon would have more value at that point anyway.....someone is going to need him. The thing is once we have him we can negotiate whatever we want. We may even be able to convince him to give a run at a championship and stay the whole year. If we can come out of the box dominant maybe he would put the label of "set-up" "closer" or whatever aside for # 27
DaddyYankee279
11-06-05, 06:12 PM
Thats a good point he still got a few in him, the closer role can wait if he wants the ring more. I now that with the work the yankees are going to do this offseason #27 is here.
Yeah, I thought that too, but my feeling is Gordon would have more value at that point anyway.....someone is going to need him. The thing is once we have him we can negotiate whatever we want. We may even be able to convince him to give a run at a championship and stay the whole year. If we can come out of the box dominant maybe he would put the label of "set-up" "closer" or whatever aside for # 27
All three? Ok.
Any of those 3 would be fine for the 7th. Add Scott Eyre also to that mix.
just-blaze
11-07-05, 10:26 AM
So you rather have B.J. as the setup man?
Cotts=trade
Hermanson=FA
Politte=FA
Vizcaino=trade
Marte=trade
Jenks=Waivers
Name the set up man in this dominant bullpen.
There is none. They all work to get to Jenks. Before they all worked to get to Hermanson. But none of them were called "the set up man".
Ryan would join Sturtze and two others we sign? to create a flexible and solid
bullpen THAT WOULD NOT GET WORE OUT.
Id advocate Farnsworth, Dotel, Ryan, but it would be hard to net all three.
And Ive heard Howry, Gordon, and Eyre. All good options, but depth in the bullpen equals playoff team.
nydeano
11-07-05, 10:49 AM
[QUOTE=just-blaze]Cotts=trade
Hermanson=FA
Politte=FA
Vizcaino=trade
Marte=trade
Jenks=Waivers
Name the set up man in this dominant bullpen.
There is none. They all work to get to Jenks. Before they all worked to get to Hermanson. But none of them were called "the set up man".
QUOTE]
Exactly. To have a pen that included Ryan, Flash, & Co. would be awesome-on paper. The problem arises when you have defined roles and egos-something the White Sox worked through. Obviously we have to sign these guys, but with Flash already expressing being a closer, it is not as likely. The questions is, do they sacrifice for a potentially lethal pen and possible WS run, or take the $$.
Yankees1962
11-07-05, 11:57 AM
Here's an interesting article that Yankee fans should be aware of because other free agent pitchers might feel the same way about coming to the Yankees.
Having Sauerbeck back fills a hole that the Indians probably couldn't have filled on the free agent market anyway, a market that is thin on left-handed relievers. The other option for the Tribe would have been its farm system, but the organization has no proven left-handed relievers there to pick from.
That made trying to get Sauerbeck back into the fold somewhat of a priority, although not as high a priority as trying to re-sign Kevin Millwood, Bob Howry or Bob Wickman. Still, the Indians viewed Sauerbeck as a piece they didn't want to lose.
He didn't want to leave, either.
"My options were: I could sign a two-year deal with the Yankees and be a left-handed specialist for two years; or have a chance to set up and earn my way back," said Sauerbeck, who turns 34 on Wednesday. "I was like, 'I don't want to lose again, but I don't want to get locked up in being a specialist.'
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051107&content_id=1265123&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
just-blaze
11-07-05, 10:45 PM
Here's an interesting article that Yankee fans should be aware of because other free agent pitchers might feel the same way about coming to the Yankees.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051107&content_id=1265123&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Cleveland is going to lose?
Saurbeck also needs to look at the bullpen that Cleveland has and realize that he will not be their "set up man"
A bit confusing to me.
Actually, after looking at 58 games and 35 innings that Saurbeck pitched, isnt that about what a specialist does.
Also the article indicated that the Indians needed a lefty reliever. Rhodes?
I dont understand that at all. I just wonder why Saurbeck would say something like that.
SINCE77 2
11-08-05, 12:32 PM
Here's an interesting article that Yankee fans should be aware of because other free agent pitchers might feel the same way about coming to the Yankees.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051107&content_id=1265123&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
This is also the reason why it is nearly impossible for the Yankees to build a good bench. When you have stars at virtually every position, they don't get many days off and they don't get pinch hit for irrespective of the matchup. This is one of my primary reasons for wanting just a few guys in the starting lineup who the manager isn't afraid to rest or pinch hit for due to their status. This is why players like Lofton, Trammel and others voiced there disenchantment with the Yankees and especially the manager. No one will want to come here if they aren't going to play, money be damned.
sugmasterflex
11-08-05, 04:33 PM
I wonder how much of this posturing by Cashman?
If Gordon is not back Wright may be a candidate for the 7th, as well as Henn. If they can get Ryan locked up, Cashman will eventually find a good reliever for the 7th, be it in or out of the organization. Priority is Ryan, we have time to find the 7th inning guy.
George Steinbrenner
11-09-05, 04:29 PM
the benefits of being able to MIX and MATCH our way to Rivera with 2 closers as setup man LH Ryan and RH Gordon makes our pen unstoppable. In Postseason, We could turn games in a 6 inning rush to score runs or face Gordon for the 6th, Ryan for the 7th, Rivera for the 8th and 9th. Imagine. After Matsui the #1 Priority must be to sign BJ Ryan. We should RE SIGN Flash Gordon at (big money if neccessary) draft picks be damned our pen would be deep and unstoppable.
Sierra Mist
11-09-05, 04:59 PM
I hope Flash gets re-signed
Evil Empire
11-09-05, 05:00 PM
I hope Flash gets re-signed
Heeeey. Sierra Mist's back! :)
JeffWeaverFan
11-09-05, 05:48 PM
While at the same time realizing that Sturtze had a career of less than mediocrity, before having a stretch of maybe 2 months of above average pitching
His stuff got worse after the overuse. He than suffered from a tired arm. That's on Torre.
Yankees1962
11-09-05, 09:32 PM
His stuff got worse after the overuse. He than suffered from a tired arm. That's on Torre.
Torre's not the blame for him sucking for his entire career.
This is also the reason why it is nearly impossible for the Yankees to build a good bench. When you have stars at virtually every position, they don't get many days off and they don't get pinch hit for irrespective of the matchup. This is one of my primary reasons for wanting just a few guys in the starting lineup who the manager isn't afraid to rest or pinch hit for due to their status. This is why players like Lofton, Trammel and others voiced there disenchantment with the Yankees and especially the manager. No one will want to come here if they aren't going to play, money be damned.
LOfton voiced his duspleasure because he's an a**hole. He never did anything here to merit more playing time. I know Torre is awful in using the talent on the bench, but in this case, he was right. Lofton's defense was no better than Bernie's- and that's not a high benchmark
27IsNext
11-10-05, 12:48 PM
Torre's not the blame for him sucking for his entire career.
He is to blame, however, for overusing Tanyon and starting him vs. Baltimore. Tanyon was a totally different pitcher after Mo taught him the cutter.
That being said, I don't want Sturtze back.
Yankeeah
11-10-05, 12:55 PM
He is to blame, however, for overusing Tanyon and starting him vs. Baltimore. Tanyon was a totally different pitcher after Mo taught him the cutter.
That being said, I don't want Sturtze back.
I'll take Tanyon back in a heartbeat. If we have BJ and Gordon then Tanyon won't get over worked as much
27IsNext
11-10-05, 01:02 PM
I'll take Tanyon back in a heartbeat. If we have BJ and Gordon then Tanyon won't get over worked as much
Sadly, I think the overuse will affect him this next season, much like what happened to Quantrill. As such, I don't want him back.
He is to blame, however, for overusing Tanyon and starting him vs. Baltimore. Tanyon was a totally different pitcher after Mo taught him the cutter.
That being said, I don't want Sturtze back.
Do you even remember what the middle relief was like last year? I don't think he had a choice other than to over use alot of people.
27IsNext
11-10-05, 01:07 PM
Do you even remember what the middle relief was like last year? I don't think he had a choice other than to over use alot of people.
I remember completely. Explain putting Tanyon in blowout games.
Granted, Joe got better with this toward the end of the season. That's why Gordon was still somewhat effective. It was already too late for Sturtze.
Yankees1962
11-10-05, 01:13 PM
He is to blame, however, for overusing Tanyon and starting him vs. Baltimore. Tanyon was a totally different pitcher after Mo taught him the cutter.
That being said, I don't want Sturtze back.
It's not Torre's fault he needed a substitute starting pitcher due to injury.
Some of you guys need to stop blaming Torre for every little thing that goes wrong with the Yankees.
27IsNext
11-10-05, 01:17 PM
It's not Torre's fault he needed a substitute starting pitcher due to injury.
Some of you guys need to stop blaming Torre for every little thing that goes wrong with the Yankees.
Where was Proctor at the time? He did a good job starting vs. Texas, IIRC. Sturtze was already overused up to that point. Asking him to go five innings was a horrible decision.
We don't blame Torre for every little thing, but some complaints are legit.
Yankees1962
11-10-05, 01:20 PM
Where was Proctor at the time? He did a good job starting vs. Texas, IIRC. Sturtze was already overused up to that point. Asking him to go five innings was a horrible decision.
We don't blame Torre for every little thing, but some complaints are legit.
Unless you know all of the details as to why Torre used Sturtze that day, I think you're grasping at straws to criticize him for that decision.
The only pitcher who consistently pitched a lot of innings last season was RJ. If we get some quality innings from Pavano, Wang, Moose and Chacon (and/or Wright, Small), then our bullpen is going to seem that much stronger, especially late in the season during the final playoff push.
27IsNext
11-10-05, 01:21 PM
Unless you know all of the details as to why Torre used Sturtze that day, I think you're grasping at straws to criticize him for that decision.
Again, I'm asking who else was available. Proctor? Where was Small at the time? Anything was a better choice than bringing in an overuse Sturtze.
JfromJersey
11-10-05, 01:27 PM
Unless they are getting bad vibes about signing BJ, I can't see why the Yankees would want Gordon back.
TheBamTino24
11-10-05, 01:28 PM
If you sign BJ Ryan he becomes the setup man. Fine. What's the trouble, if Ryan is here, of bringing back Gordon and Sturtze in reduced roles? Who else is there? Howry?
Plus, Gordon in a reduced role would be very beneficial given his age and Torre's habit of overusing his key setup man (Ryan). I wouldn't have any qualms if we started 2006 with Ryan and Gordon setting up Rivera with Sturtze and another lefty plus Small in the 'pen.
cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 01:49 PM
We have to re-sign him. We need pitchers who know what their doing in front of Mo.
I think Flash did a good job last year. Don't be spoiled by how good Mo is. Nobody else can be that perfect.
If you sign BJ Ryan he becomes the setup man. Fine. What's the trouble, if Ryan is here, of bringing back Gordon and Sturtze in reduced roles? Who else is there? Howry?
Plus, Gordon in a reduced role would be very beneficial given his age and Torre's habit of overusing his key setup man (Ryan). I wouldn't have any qualms if we started 2006 with Ryan and Gordon setting up Rivera with Sturtze and another lefty plus Small in the 'pen.
The issue then is that Gordon probably doesn't want to be #3.
Quite frankly, considering his likely monetary demands, I could go without FLash. He's never, ever been good in pressure spots- he gets too amped up, and misses all over the place. Had the Angels series been in YS, he would have lost Game 1 on two bombs, and he was shaky in every other outing except for Game 5. And his career in October isn't poor- it's horrifically bad.
That being said, he's extremely valuable in getting to October. I'd like to have him back, but if they sign Ryan I could live with saving a ton of money and filling in the blanks with lesser- but still competent- arms.
By the way, Ryan got very tired late summer last year and struggled for a bit.
To me, losing Gordon but getting BJ Ryan only makes the bullpen a little better - not much better. Having Gordon and Ryan, surrounded by less flashy but durable arms, makes it a poweful bullpen. While I don't consider BJ Ryan a consolation prize by any means, getting him doesn't excite me about next year if we don't keep Gordon (or find a suitable replacement for him).
cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 02:23 PM
The issue then is that Gordon probably doesn't want to be #3.
Quite frankly, considering his likely monetary demands, I could go without FLash. He's never, ever been good in pressure spots- he gets too amped up, and misses all over the place. Had the Angels series been in YS, he would have lost Game 1 on two bombs, and he was shaky in every other outing except for Game 5. And his career in October isn't poor- it's horrifically bad.
That being said, he's extremely valuable in getting to October. I'd like to have him back, but if they sign Ryan I could live with saving a ton of money and filling in the blanks with lesser- but still competent- arms.
By the way, Ryan got very tired late summer last year and struggled for a bit.
Then who do we get to replace him for less than what he's asking?
32elston
11-10-05, 02:27 PM
We just need to go ahead and sign whoever is willing to do the job. If we wait too long we won't have either.
TheBamTino24
11-10-05, 02:29 PM
The issue then is that Gordon probably doesn't want to be #3.
Then adios, Tom. I agree with every point you made.
Yankees1962
11-10-05, 03:07 PM
Again, I'm asking who else was available. Proctor? Where was Small at the time? Anything was a better choice than bringing in an overuse Sturtze.
Please, Sturtze wasn't overused at that point of the season. Secondly, if you want to know who was available then do a little research instead of asking me or somebody else to do it for you.
ComeBackShane47
11-10-05, 03:20 PM
Apparently people don't see the Tom Gordon that I saw last year. The Tom Gordon who was one of the worst pitchers in the AL at letting in inheritted runners, the Tom Gordon whose K/BB ratio declined for yet another year, the 38 year old Tom Gordon. He wants to be a closer, some dumb team will be willing to pay him as such for multiple years, the Yankees should not be that team. He is good, no doubt but he is geting a little bit worse every year, and it is not worth investing that kind of money and more than one year in a guy who is heading in the wrong direction. Thank you Tom for all that you have done, but it is time to move on. BJ Ryan is the guy the Yankees should go after, high strikeouts, lefty, and 9 years younger than Tom Gordon.
Then who do we get to replace him for less than what he's asking?
I don't know. And it is not going to be the same quality as Tom Gordon. However, I read today that he was looking for a Ryan Dempster (terrible contract) type of deal- I believe it was ballpark $5 million per for a few years.
Signing Gordon to a 3-year deal is simply dumb- age and durability is going to catch up to him. He's been healthier the past two years than at any point in recent history- and he is likely to break down over the course of three years. Extremely likely.
Plus, spending that type of cash for a #2 or #3 guy in a pen isn't prudent. He was very effective this year- for the most part- but I think his stuff was clearly inferior to even '04. Workload + age + history? Bad stuff.
Wouldn't it be something, however, if the Yanks decide they want to try and blow everyone out of the water relief-wise? Say, sign Ryan AND another closer? Hoffman or Wagner? They'd certainly need to extreme overpay for those other guys to lure them (and I doubt it could happen), but at the very least you would jack up their price for the other clubs.
And.....if you DID happen to sign two of them, could you imagine a bullpen of Rivera/Wagner/Ryan or Rivera/Hoffman/Ryan? I mean....talk about game over.
27IsNext
11-10-05, 03:23 PM
Please, Sturtze wasn't overused at that point of the season. Secondly, if you want to know who was available then do a little research instead of asking me or somebody else to do it for you.
Yes, he was. He was Torre's first victim of overuse. The question as to where those two were was a rhetorical, as they were both under the Yankees control.
Yankees1962
11-10-05, 04:58 PM
Yes, he was. He was Torre's first victim of overuse. The question as to where those two were was a rhetorical, as they were both under the Yankees control.
He was not overused on July 4th and if you think he was then you don't know what you're talking about.
yanksphan
11-10-05, 05:09 PM
Yes, he was. He was Torre's first victim of overuse. The question as to where those two were was a rhetorical, as they were both under the Yankees control.
He logged more innings in 2004 before the ASB than 2005.
27IsNext
11-10-05, 05:10 PM
He was not overused on July 4th and if you think he was then you don't know what you're talking about.
I vividly remember thinking by the second week of the season, "Sturtze is this year's victim of Torre overuse, mark it down." In other words, Torre was already showing that he intended to use Sturtze more than one would usually use a reliever. By July 4th, he had already been in a number of games that he shoud not have been, IIRC. Of course, the game itself didn't help either way.
Wow, I must've really hit a nerve with you. I do apologize, I have nothing against Torre. In fact, because he's such a class act, I idolize the man. I just happen to disagree with a number of in-game moves he makes.
terminator
11-10-05, 05:28 PM
Personally, I'm a little skeptical - fine, I'm very skeptical of the "overuse" theory. However, I do recall Snatch Catch making a case, which I call the "Mediocrity in small doses can be effective" theory. In other words - Sturtze is, was, and will always be fairly mediocre as a reliever - however by using him in limited encounters (limiting the number of innings/games he pitches in), he can be effective. I can see the merits in the argument - though I do think that Cinderella's carriage was bound to become a pumpkin at some point.
(Snatch Catch - if I have misrepresented your views on Sturtz, I apologise - and feel free to make the necessary clarifications)
My question however is this: Will Sturtze be effective next year, even if Torre uses him the way his ardent fans advocate. :) Or did the clock strike 12 on this guy, and the Yankees would be better off not relying on him making an impact next year?
cuban_yanksfan
11-10-05, 05:52 PM
Personally, I'm a little skeptical - fine, I'm very skeptical of the "overuse" theory. However, I do recall Snatch Catch making a case, which I call the "Mediocrity in small doses can be effective" theory. In other words - Sturtze is, was, and will always be fairly mediocre as a reliever - however by using him in limited encounters (limiting the number of innings/games he pitches in), he can be effective. I can see the merits in the argument - though I do think that Cinderella's carriage was bound to become a pumpkin at some point.
(Snatch Catch - if I have misrepresented your views on Sturtz, I apologise - and feel free to make the necessary clarifications)
My question however is this: Will Sturtze be effective next year, even if Torre uses him the way his ardent fans advocate. :) Or did the clock strike 12 on this guy, and the Yankees would be better off not relying on him making an impact next year?
Sturtz has a +90's fastball, decent command, veteran experience, and the heart of a lion.
He'll get the job done with proper use
ring403
11-11-05, 07:53 AM
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1131688068268670.xml&coll=1
The Yankees have made a two-year contract offer to reliever Tom Gordon, who spent the past two years as the team's set-up man. According to one Yankees official, the Yankees' effort to keep Gordon will not keep them from pursuing free-agent lefty B.J. Ryan -- they are open to signing both.
Gordon, who prefers to close, wants to hear what other teams have to offer (teams can begin making offers to outside free agents today). Philadelphia, which will need a closer if it cannot re-sign Billy Wagner, has shown strong interest in Gordon.
rightfielder21
11-11-05, 07:56 AM
Draft picks...
27IsNext
11-11-05, 02:01 PM
Was it an offer of arbitration?
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-11-05, 02:07 PM
Was it an offer of arbitration?
The Yankees have made a two-year contract offer to reliever Tom Gordon, who spent the past two years as the team's set-up man.
Thats not arb...
27IsNext
11-11-05, 02:07 PM
Thats not arb...
The Yankees are stupid.
Steph19
11-11-05, 02:15 PM
Can the Yankees still offer him arbitration? It'd be ridiculous if they didn't.
Yankees1962
11-11-05, 02:18 PM
The Yankees are stupid.
Please, explain????????
27IsNext
11-11-05, 04:37 PM
Please, explain????????
Offering him arby means when he declines (he will), we get a first round pick from whoever signs him plus a supplemental pick. If he does accept, that means we have our 7th inning man.
Not offeirng arby was beyond moronic. Between this and overpaying for Matsui, I'm not liking the start of this offseason. :(
Yankees1962
11-11-05, 05:03 PM
Offering him arby means when he declines (he will), we get a first round pick from whoever signs him plus a supplemental pick. If he does accept, that means we have our 7th inning man.
Not offeirng arby was beyond moronic. Between this and overpaying for Matsui, I'm not liking the start of this offseason. :(
Dude, the Yankees have to December 7th to offer him arbitration.
27IsNext
11-11-05, 05:06 PM
Dude, the Yankees have to December 7th to offer him arbitration.
Oh, I thought the deadline was this month sometime, I must be confused. Is it regular practice to initially make a free agent offer, then push for arbitration at the last minute? I can't remember us doing that last year with anyone.
Yankees1962
11-11-05, 05:10 PM
Oh, I thought the deadline was this month sometime, I must be confused. Is it regular practice to initially make a free agent offer, then push for arbitration at the last minute? I can't remember us doing that last year with anyone.
Some teams don't offer a player arbitration until after he's signed with another. Anyway, if you're upset with the 4th year for Matsui then signing Gordon for 3 years should make you nuts because I wouldn't sign Gordon for that many years.
27IsNext
11-11-05, 05:23 PM
Gordon for any more than a year is outrageous.
terminator
11-11-05, 05:25 PM
Does anyone have any metrics which show where Gordon ranked among AL relievers for the last 2 years?
scull567
11-11-05, 05:31 PM
Some teams don't offer a player arbitration until after he's signed with another. Anyway, if you're upset with the 4th year for Matsui then signing Gordon for 3 years should make you nuts because I wouldn't sign Gordon for that many years.
I don't believe you can offer a player arbitratrion after he signs with another club. ???
I don't believe you can offer a player arbitratrion after he signs with another club. ???
might be helpful:
http://www.jamsadr.com/arbitration/defined.asp
might be helpful:
http://www.jamsadr.com/arbitration/defined.asp
What does it say?
What does it say?
Short overview of arbitration :)
Yankee Clipper
11-11-05, 07:32 PM
Does anyone have any metrics which show where Gordon ranked among AL relievers for the last 2 years?
All I know is he had ERAs of 2.21 and 2.57 in back to back years of over 80 IP. I love that. Only stat that concerns me is his K's dropped almost 30 last year. I'm not sure if that's him trying to be less facist or if he's lost a little zip on the fastball and little bite on the curve? I'd still like ot have him back, he's been great, besides 2004 ALCS.
Short overview of arbitration :)
I'm too lazy to read it. Does it answer scull567's post?
TommyK8
11-11-05, 09:15 PM
If a free agent signs with another team prior to the December 7th deadline for offering arbitration, the team that loses the free agent will get the associated draft picks just as they would have if the player signed after December 7th and his former team had offered him arbitration.
Here's a brief overview of how it works. A team has until December 7th to offer their free agents arbitration. If a team does not offer their free agent arbitration, they effectively lose him, because they may not negotiate with him until the following May 1. A team which does not offer their free agent arbitration does not get draft picks in return when that player signs with another team. If a team offers their free agent arbitration, they may continue to negotiate with him until January 8. If a player is offered arbitration, he has until December 19 to decide whether to accept it. If the player does accept it, he is essentially signed to a one year contract with the salary to be determined by the arbitrator. If the player declines arbitration, he can continue to negotiate with all clubs, but with his former club only until January 8. It the player who is then signed by another club, the team who loses him gets draft picks, based on whether the player is a Type A, Type B, or Type C free agent.
nyg02005
11-11-05, 11:00 PM
I think offering a player a contract constitute offering an arbitration. The team gets a draft pick if they were not able to signed the player
TheScooter
11-12-05, 09:12 AM
Offering him arby means when he declines (he will), we get a first round pick from whoever signs him plus a supplemental pick. If he does accept, that means we have our 7th inning man.
Not offeirng arby was beyond moronic. Between this and overpaying for Matsui, I'm not liking the start of this offseason. :(
Would you rather them lose Matsui over an extra year?
PittsburghYankeeFan
11-12-05, 09:53 AM
Offering him arby means when he declines (he will), we get a first round pick from whoever signs him plus a supplemental pick. If he does accept, that means we have our 7th inning man.
Not offeirng arby was beyond moronic. Between this and overpaying for Matsui, I'm not liking the start of this offseason. :(
Gordon will be offered arb if he is not signed by Dec 7th, and the Yankees will get their draft pick. If he is signed before the arb deadline by someone else, they get the pcik anyway. They are not stupid--this is GM 101.
In terms of Matsui, think of him in terms of the total franchise revenue. In one year, the money the Y's get in Japanese revenue with Matsui here likely exceeds the $50 million/4 years they will pay him. As a baseball decision, to give $12-13 million in year four to a (then) 35 year old is somewhat questionable. As a financial decision for a business, its a no brainer. They easily get the money back, even if Matsui is subpar (and I suspect he is proud enough to retire if he can't deliver).
Bloodshot
11-18-05, 07:53 AM
Interesting analysis:
http://stats.mostvaluablenetwork.com/pitching/the-slow-decline-of-tom-gordon/
A closer examination of Gordon’s recent trends reveal a picture of an old pitcher who will inevitably be overpaid by a team looking for a good bullpen solution ... CONTINUED ...
NelsonMuntz
11-18-05, 08:46 AM
With Ryan apparently not interested in the Yankees, I think signing Gordon is now imperative. Without Gordon we essentially have a one-man bullpen. My caveat to this is that it would be stupid to sign him for more than two years.
yankees76
11-18-05, 03:52 PM
Not clear how badly Gordon wants to close again, or if that is just a negotiating ploy. But, if he really does want to close again, he is going to get the chance from someone. Too many teams need closers.
IronCaballo4
11-18-05, 05:03 PM
With Ryan apparently not interested in the Yankees, I think signing Gordon is now imperative. Without Gordon we essentially have a one-man bullpen. My caveat to this is that it would be stupid to sign him for more than two years.
a two-year contract for Gordon is nuts, in my opinion
Yankees1962
11-18-05, 07:29 PM
a two-year contract for Gordon is nuts, in my opinion
I'm fine with giving him two years, but I would never sign him for three years.
a two-year contract for Gordon is nuts, in my opinion
for a team like the Yankees, with their resources, it depends upon the other realistic options; they can afford the risk. if Ryan's available to them, they they can be selective; but if he's not, then who's out there to be the 2nd banana in the bullpen?
Gordon's had a couple of big playoff failures, but his presence in 2004-2005 was a big improvement over the "burning bridge to Mariano" in 2003. he's risky - innings logged recently, arm trouble - but if there's no Ryan, they have to pay the man.
now i'd like to see them blow Ryan away with a ridiculous offer, pronto; make him an offer he can't refuse.
drjeckyl
11-20-05, 07:38 AM
But yesterday, Gordon's agent, Rick Thurman, said eight to 10 teams have told him Gordon would be their closer. He indicated some of those teams are considering three-year deals.
The Yankees, as of yesterday, were still absolutely unwilling to offer Gordon three years. Thurman was asked if this would be a deal-breaker.
"Is it absolutely necessary?" Thurman said. "Well, it's a probability that he'll get a three-year deal.
"I suppose it depends on what a two-year deal would be. If you give a number in two years that you would get over three, that would probably [remedy] the situation."
NYPost (http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/57914.htm)
The reality of this market for Gordon is that there are enough teams looking for a closer that would offer him a three year deal. So, the Yankees have to compete with that if they truly want to keep him. Remember, these teams will not only offer the three years, they can also make him their closer.
Like it or not, if the Yankees truly want to keep him, they will have to offer that third year, or grossly overpay for two years in order to keep him as their setup guy. In the end, it will cost them alot to keep Gordon regardless of whether or not he's worth it.
yankeebot
11-20-05, 07:43 AM
"Is it absolutely necessary?" Thurman said. "Well, it's a probability that he'll get a three-year deal. Yep, if his agent says he will probably get a 3 yr deal it must be true. (insert roll-eyes smiley here)
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