View Full Version : Rumor:Ichiro has grown tired of the Mariners' losing (should we try to get him?)
Epy7280
11-02-05, 06:22 PM
Rumor has it Ichiro has grown tired of the Mariners' losing ways and wants out, but Seattle-area reporters aren't publicizing it because they like dealing with the Japanese hitting star on a daily basis. They're hoping the All-Star changes his mind before his request for a trade becomes a demand.
Believe it: The Mariners are accepting offers right now for the standout leadoff hitter, and the price is only going to go up if/when Ichiro's true feelings about wanting out become public, prompting more teams to get Bill Bavasi on the phone.
http://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_3168307
I dont know if it is true or not. But you think the yankees could package something to get him and play him as our CenterFielder. I think once Torre played him in CF in the All star game. It wasn't to long ago when he played A-rod at 3rd base at the all star game and look where he is now :P.
chanman7483
11-02-05, 06:27 PM
I say no... b/c
1) Imagine the price Ichiro would come at? He's a huge name... definetly would cost top prospects. I understand the Japanese connection would be nice, but not for top prospects...
2) I think he's a great player, but could he be on the decline? He's going to be 33 very soon and last year, he had a monster drop off in his hitting #s.
Actually, after typing that and looking at his stats, it woudln't hurt to at least give Seattle's GM a call :D
yankees76
11-02-05, 06:31 PM
Well, if his numbers tail-spinned last year solely from boredom, maybe (how does a guy go from nearly hitting .400 to hitting under .300 in that short a time??).
Of course, we don't necessarily need him for his offense, and he still has a gun, so maybe this works.
(Btw, article is unclear on one point: usually, once a player has stated his desire to leave, the club loses leverage and his price goes down. I think what the writer meant was, once word gets out, a bidding war could start, which would drive the price up.
Babe Rules
11-02-05, 06:34 PM
What is his contract status?
mjdlight
11-02-05, 06:40 PM
What is his contract status?
Signed thru 2007
2006: 12.5 million
2007: 13.5 million
Per Hardball Dollars (http://russells.freeshell.org/ddollars/team.php?team=mariners&name=Mariners)
Mr. Mxylsplk
11-02-05, 06:41 PM
What is his contract status?
Due $26M over the next two seasons.
surge511
11-02-05, 06:46 PM
I would give up top prospects for Ichiro. I don't really like his me-first attitude sometimes, but he would make our OF defense much better, and he would be awesome for the top of the lineup, terrorizing teams with Jeter, Arod, Sheff, Giambi, Matsui, and Cano behind him. Imagine the lineup:
Ichiro
Jeter
Arod
Giambi
Sheff
Matsui
Cano
Posada
Tino
That is what you call a balanced lineup. With solid defense, that may be exactly what we should try and do. Then after 2 years, we could see where he is at, and decide if we should keep him or hand it over to another prospect. But considering Sheff's contract is up after next year, OF is going to start becoming a more and more serious issue. Most of our good prospects are a few years away, so all we need are good holdovers until the young guys can show through. Ichiro would be exactly that, if not more.
Bernie Inferno
11-02-05, 06:46 PM
I know they were interested in Pavano...
yankees76
11-02-05, 06:47 PM
I know they were interested in Pavano...
That's hard to see until Pavano demonstrates he is healthy. Are teams allowed to trade guys who are on the DL? Are you still on the DL once the season ends?
mjdlight
11-02-05, 06:54 PM
The Marniers wanted Mr. Wang.
I'm sure trade talks for Ichiro start with his name.
As much as I love watching Ichiro play because of his unique style, at that point, Cash has got to say, "Thanks, but no thanks."
Babe Rules
11-02-05, 06:56 PM
Signed thru 2007
2006: 12.5 million
2007: 13.5 million
Per Hardball Dollars (http://russells.freeshell.org/ddollars/team.php?team=mariners&name=Mariners)
Due $26M over the next two seasons.
Thank you!
The Marniers wanted Mr. Wang.
I'm sure trade talks for Ichiro start with his name.
As much as I love watching Ichiro play because of his unique style, at that point, Cash has got to say, "Thanks, but no thanks."
I would definetly try and get this guy but I wouldn't give up Wang or Cano.
Maybe we could trade Sheffield and spin that into something the Mariners might want?
I'd worry about the communication in the OF with Matsui.
Lets do A-Rod for Ichiro and King Felix :P
In all seriousness though if you can get Ichiro without having to give up top prospects you gotta find a way to do it. The profile of the Yankees in Japan would get even bigger with 2/3rds of the outfield Japanese. His numbers have declined last year but maybe playing in New York will light a fire in him. How would he translate in CF? Does he have the range?
Kulish29
11-02-05, 07:02 PM
Although I like the idea because it would fill the CF hole, he would cost way too much.
vin777b
11-02-05, 07:16 PM
I am Wang's #1 fan on this board. That said, i would have no problem including Wang in a deal for Ichiro (provided he has no problem playing CF). Wang, Pavano, and a B prospect. Done.
everything considered, we could NOT do better than Ichiro. I love his game.
yankees76
11-02-05, 07:19 PM
I would consider trading Wang for Suzuki. Ichiro is in great shape and I can't see any reason he won't play at a high level for another five or six years. He's an All-Star, a super star, even if he is 33. Wang is young, and he is good, and he is currently cheap. But Wang isn't great, and Wang isn't ever going to be great. He is a No. 3, at best, not a No. 1, and if you can get an everyday player with All-Star potential for him, I say make the trade.
Mr. Mxylsplk
11-02-05, 07:20 PM
Although I like the idea because it would fill the CF hole, he would cost way too much.
He doesn't play center, and has specifically resisted moving there when asked by the M's. If he's really tired of losing, perhaps he'd change his mind given an opportunity to move to a winner, but I imagine there will be enough interest in him that he can find a competitive team that will let him stay in right.
I am Wang's #1 fan on this board. That said, i would have no problem including Wang in a deal for Ichiro (provided he has no problem playing CF). Wang, Pavano, and a B prospect. Done.
everything considered, we could NOT do better than Ichiro. I love his game.
If we give up both Wang and Pavano then we'd need a pitcher? :-whistle-
Ghost of Dan Pasqua
11-02-05, 07:22 PM
One thing doesn't make sense in that article, why would his price go up if he makes his demands to get traded public? Kinda hurts the M's leverage with other teams if they know that they have an unhappy Ichiro and he wants out, especially considering the financial impact to bring him over. Same deal as to why the Sox were pissed when Manny's trade demand was leaked, it hurt their leverage as well.
All in all, the reality is that Ichiro will have a heavy price tag. Not sure how much more money the Yankees could make out of Ichiro to go along with Matsui, but I'd suppose that the entire country would be wearing pinstripes if it happened. But he's going to cost a very steep price in prospects, plus you'd have to absorb that salary. I really don't know Seattle's prospect situation, but I'd dangle Pavano (who went there as part of his Carlpolooza tour last year) and Duncan, but you know they will ask for Cano, Wang, and Hughes. If indeed he does get traded, the Yankees should be at the list to get him though, he would fill a number of needs and would also hit 20+ home runs in Yankee Stadium. Will Ichrio play center?
I am Wang's #1 fan on this board. That said, i would have no problem including Wang in a deal for Ichiro (provided he has no problem playing CF). Wang, Pavano, and a B prospect. Done.
everything considered, we could NOT do better than Ichiro. I love his game.
So we are only out 2 starting pitchers, both of which are 30 or younger, for an 33 year old outfielder whose entire good but not great hitting game is based on his about-to-decline speed who makes just as much as the 2 pitchers combined. Plus a prospect.
Way to not be an incredible homer, but I think we'd have to do a lot better if we wanted to not get gouged.
If it was Pavano for Ichiro straight up I'd probably do it. I don't know who else I would trade for him just because he makes a ton, definitely a good amount more than he is worth. Pavano's salary would pretty much match up with Ichiro's and we can probably afford to lose Pavano so that would work. In any case I doubt Seattle would agree to this, mostly due to Pavano's incredible injury problems.
he would also hit 20+ home runs in Yankee Stadium.
I doubt that. He doesn't really lift balls (in games, I know he does it in BP), almost everything off his bat is a grounder, a bloop, or a low line drive. He'd hit a few more but I dont think he'd be a consistent 20+ HR guy. And if he could somehow also hit all those HR in games just like in BP I'd have to see it to believe it.
Now is not the time to destroy the farm system.
nnysiny
11-02-05, 07:34 PM
Ichiro would do wonders for the Yankees:
-shore up CF defense (he might even be better than Torii at this point)
-legit leadoff hitter who's impossible to strike out
that being said, the Ms love Wang, so i would say "no." as tempting as Ichiro is, this must be an offseason where salary must go down and no young talent is traded
38Special
11-02-05, 07:35 PM
Now is not the time to destroy the farm system.
Or our pitching staff? Wang AND Pavano? Gimme a break.
Or our pitching staff? Wang AND Pavano? Gimme a break.
Huh?
___
DiMaggio5CF
11-02-05, 07:36 PM
Imagine Matsui and Ichiro on the same team. The money is probably irrelevant because the way the Yankees can market that in Japan is probably worth at least three times what Ichiro makes.
Wang's Groundballs
11-02-05, 07:38 PM
Of course we should try for him, especially if he'd move to CF. But like Rich said, now is not the time to destroy the farm. I don't want to deal Wang or Cano for him either.
38Special
11-02-05, 07:39 PM
Huh?
___
Earlier post in the thread.
Wang's Groundballs
11-02-05, 07:39 PM
Huh?
___
The suggestion that we should trade Wang and Pavano for him. We'd have no pitching staff left.
Earlier post in the thread.
I wouldn't trade Wang for him. RJ is old, Moose could be in his last year, Wright and Pavano are huge question marks.
WebsterMulligan
11-02-05, 07:45 PM
I would deal Pavano and Wright for Suzuki straight up.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-02-05, 07:45 PM
I really like Wang and would have trouble parting with him for Ichiro. Anyone else in our rotation I'd be fine with (RJ is pretty much untradeable with his contract though).
If these reports are true, I expect the Sox to try and take a strong run at him
RobbiMan
11-02-05, 07:50 PM
I would deal Pavano and Wright for Suzuki straight up.
You probably wouldn't be getting Ichiro then.
Epy7280
11-02-05, 07:52 PM
I wouldn't trade Wang for him. I would trade Pavano or Wright. But not both of them. But I would try to get Ichiro anyway we can. Great Leadoff hitter. Would be a good 1-2 combo with Jeter. He would hit alot more home runs even though that wouldn't be his job too.
TheWarrior21
11-02-05, 08:08 PM
I would deal Pavano and Wright in a heartbeat for Ichiro and put him in RF, with Matsui in CF, and Sheffield in LF. They could then possibly sign Millwood for a SP spot, use Small there, or sign a mid-level FA.
I'm more willing to give up Wang and Sheff plus cash (portion of Sheff's contract). We need a real leadoff hitter, we'd be off the hook in two years when Ichiro really starts his decline, and as much as I enjoyed watching Wang this year, he can't just keep getting outs with his lousy K numbers and lack of velocity. In terms of raw stuff, Wang has less than Pavano.
Pavano's location was terrible, so I gotta believe that's fixable if he's healthy and that may be possible with the new pitching coaches. I want to see what they can do with Wright as well.
We've seen the best Wang has to give and I'm not sure how much that is worth in the long term, frankly. IMO he's a future Ramiro Mendoza and I'd certainly give that up for a good leadoff hitter/improved OF defense. Would the Ms take Small?
This is certainly worth exploring as one of several OF options.
I'm more willing to give up Wang and Sheff plus cash (portion of Sheff's contract). We need a real leadoff hitter, we'd be off the hook in two years when Ichiro really starts his decline, and as much as I enjoyed watching Wang this year, he can't just keep getting outs with his lousy K numbers and lack of velocity. In terms of raw stuff, Wang has less than Pavano.
Pavano's location was terrible, so I gotta believe that's fixable if he's healthy and that may be possible with the new pitching coaches. I want to see what they can do with Wright as well.
We've seen the best Wang has to give and I'm not sure how much that is worth in the long term, frankly. IMO he's a future Ramiro Mendoza and I'd certainly give that up for a good leadoff hitter/improved OF defense. Would the Ms take Small?
This is certainly worth exploring as one of several OF options.
The Yankees have a real lead off hitter.
Flatten78
11-02-05, 08:10 PM
I would trade sheff, pavano, and maybe henn or a B class minor leaguer for ichiro. How would unloading sheff's and pavano's salary (over the whole length of pavano's contract) compare to ichiro's. If we trade sheff, reggie sanders, or jacque jones are available, and are reasonably solid players. Ichiro is that speedy, lead off hitter we havent had for a few years now and hits .300 consistantly. With that being said, i doubt the trade would happen.
TheWarrior21
11-02-05, 08:11 PM
What from Wang tells you that he can only be a middle reliever in the long term?
38Special
11-02-05, 08:11 PM
I would trade sheff, pavano, and maybe henn or a B class minor leaguer for ichiro. How would unloading sheff's and pavano's salary (over the whole length of pavano's contract) compare to ichiro's. If we trade sheff, reggie sanders, or jacque jones are available, and are reasonably solid players. Ichiro is that speedy, lead off hitter we havent had for a few years now and hits .300 consistantly. With that being said, i doubt the trade would happen.
hahahahahaha
Trade away a productive hitter for a singles hitter on the wrong side of 30 with 26 million due to him, AND then on top of that a starting pitcher and prospect
sweet dude :cool:
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 08:22 PM
I don't think the rumors are true. I just don't see the M's trading away Ichiro.
It's probably a moot point cause even if they do, he wouldn't be coming to the Yankees. If he's traded, he would cost a lot; he's a good player (sometimes great) who will make his team a lot of money, no matter how much his contract is. There are teams out there that would be able to offer much better packages than the Yankees.
I would really hate to see the Sox replace Damon with Ichiro.
drjeckyl
11-02-05, 08:22 PM
That's hard to see until Pavano demonstrates he is healthy. Are teams allowed to trade guys who are on the DL? Are you still on the DL once the season ends?
Didn't the Yanks get Gabe Paul from Cincy in 03 while he was on the DL?
YankeePride1967
11-02-05, 08:29 PM
Like Matsui here, Ichiro brings in a lot of money for the Mariners. I think the cost for him would be Matsui (assuming Matsui was tradable).
The Yankees have a real lead off hitter.
I forgot about Ichiro's lousy .350 OBP, and his P/PA is similar to Jeter's, so point taken, sort of. Both lack some of the skills normally associated with leadoff guys.
We still need a real outfielder, and Ichiro is that. Again, I see him as an option worth exploring, not necessarily the one we should settle on.
yankees76
11-02-05, 08:41 PM
I forgot about Ichiro's lousy .350 OBP, and his P/PA is similar to Jeter's, so point taken, sort of. Both lack some of the skills normally associated with leadoff guys.
We still need a real outfielder, and Ichiro is that. Again, I see him as an option worth exploring, not necessarily the one we should settle on.
His career OBP is .377, which is not brilliant, but better than last year. Career OPS is .819. That's a huge improvement in CF if we could get him, which I think is pretty remote at this point.
I say no... b/c
1) Imagine the price Ichiro would come at? He's a huge name... definetly would cost top prospects. I understand the Japanese connection would be nice, but not for top prospects...
2) I think he's a great player, but could he be on the decline? He's going to be 33 very soon and last year, he had a monster drop off in his hitting #s.
Actually, after typing that and looking at his stats, it woudln't hurt to at least give Seattle's GM a call :D
on your number 2 point
when you break the major league single season record for hits, it's kind of hard to have anywhere to go but down
interesting idea...
altho we all know ichiro in pinstripes means goodbye wang and/or cano one would have to think
also, does ichiro want to share the spotlight with hideki?
If the rumor is true, and Ichiro is that unhappy, then that advertising revenue might dwindle. The "product" would be a miserable and unhappy Ichiro - "Drink Sapporo!". Doesn't work.
Just say no to Ichiro because we can't trade for him without getting totally raped in a deal.
Epy7280
11-02-05, 08:48 PM
Well a thought came across my mind. I think Andrew Jones is a Free Agent next year. And Sheffield only has one more year on his contract. If we can get Ichiro and we can play him at CF next season, then in 2007 we can sign Andrew Jones to play CF and move Ichiro back to RF and let go of Sheffield unless we want to bring him back as a DH. With Jones and Ichiro we can have one of the best defensive and offensive Outfields in baseball.
yankees76
11-02-05, 08:48 PM
interesting idea...
altho we all know ichiro in pinstripes means goodbye wang and/or cano one would have to think
also, does ichiro want to share the spotlight with hideki?
Ichiro will be sharing the spotlight with more than Matsui. There are much bigger stars on the team (RJ, Sheff, A-Rod, Jeter, Mo). His life vis-a-vis the Japanese media won't be much different, I think. He is still a former Japanese star on a U.S. baseball team. He's been "sharing the spotlight" with Hasegawa on the Mariners lately. Not sure what the issue is here.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 08:50 PM
also, does ichiro want to share the spotlight with hideki?
I would guess no. These guys don't really get along too well it seems.
What from Wang tells you that he can only be a middle reliever in the long term?
His K/9 is 3.64 (260th in the AL!), his K/BB 1.47. He doesn't have a good FB that he can blow past guys, or even use to set up an off speed pitch, and he can't go up the ladder. He is basically a one pitch pitcher, that pitch being the sinker. All hitters have to do is lay off and force him to keep it in the zone and see if they can get it past the Yankee infield - not that difficult a task - or beat out a dribbler or chopper for a hit, which the Angels did.
Anything that's not below the knees will get hit. He doesn't fool hitters at all, but I think he's got a cool head that make him well suited for a reliever role/spot starter.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-02-05, 08:55 PM
Who wouldn't want Ichiro?
Who wouldn't want Ichiro?
Given the likely cost, me.
I Love Wang
11-02-05, 09:01 PM
His K/9 is 3.64 (260th in the AL!), his K/BB 1.47. He doesn't have a good FB that he can blow past guys, or even use to set up an off speed pitch, and he can't go up the ladder. He is basically a one pitch pitcher, that pitch being the sinker. All hitters have to do is lay off and force him to keep it in the zone and see if they can get it past the Yankee infield - not that difficult a task - or beat out a dribbler or chopper for a hit, which the Angels did.
Anything that's not below the knees will get hit. He doesn't fool hitters at all, but I think he's got a cool head that make him well suited for a reliever role/spot starter.
That fastball that he can't blow past guys hit 96 this year. He was a solid K pitcher in the minors. He'll be a very good starter in the majors.
And to the major point, Ichiro! is one of the top 5 most overrated players in baseball. He is going to have a humugous price tag, and I'm not interested in that.
surge511
11-02-05, 09:02 PM
His K/9 is 3.64 (260th in the AL!), his K/BB 1.47. He doesn't have a good FB that he can blow past guys, or even use to set up an off speed pitch, and he can't go up the ladder. He is basically a one pitch pitcher, that pitch being the sinker. All hitters have to do is lay off and force him to keep it in the zone and see if they can get it past the Yankee infield - not that difficult a task - or beat out a dribbler or chopper for a hit, which the Angels did.
Anything that's not below the knees will get hit. He doesn't fool hitters at all, but I think he's got a cool head that make him well suited for a reliever role/spot starter.
I don't care what the numbers say, I like pitchers who can get outs, and that is what Wang did all year. Ground balls, flyouts, or strikeouts, I don't care. What I do know is that Wang was one of our best pitchers, and definitely proved himself to be more than a capable starter in his rookie year.
Epy7280
11-02-05, 09:05 PM
His K/9 is 3.64 (260th in the AL!), his K/BB 1.47. He doesn't have a good FB that he can blow past guys, or even use to set up an off speed pitch, and he can't go up the ladder. He is basically a one pitch pitcher, that pitch being the sinker. All hitters have to do is lay off and force him to keep it in the zone and see if they can get it past the Yankee infield - not that difficult a task - or beat out a dribbler or chopper for a hit, which the Angels did.
Anything that's not below the knees will get hit. He doesn't fool hitters at all, but I think he's got a cool head that make him well suited for a reliever role/spot starter.
Well Wang isn't as bad as you make him out to be but I do believe he needs to learn a off-speed pitch or 2.
Johnny O
11-02-05, 09:05 PM
Just say no to Ichiro because we can't trade for him without getting totally raped in a deal.
Exactly - you'd be paying for Ichiro! but you'd really be getting Suzuki - a player who's entire offensive value is tied into his batting average, and when he doesn't hit .370 he's not worth it. His 2001 MVP season was one of the biggest jokes in recent baseball memory - Giambi's OPS was .300 point higher!
jimmyclark
11-02-05, 09:07 PM
I am interested. I would want to trade off Carl "The Pain is in my Head" Pavano and eat 1/2 his salary. Wang I am doubtful. I know his numbers aren't great but he did look good this year. Calm and collected. One thing that people have always wondered about is how well Ichiro and Matsui get along. In public they say all the right things but people have doubts. Supposedly Ichiro, a 4th round draft choice who played for a smaller marke team, resents the national hero out of high school who played for The Team in Japan, the Yomouri Giants. Although they didn't really know each other over there, having played in an exhibition series once. But remember two years ago there were reports Kaz Matsui didn't want to be on the same team as Hideki Matsui so he went to the Mets (no great loss as it turned out).
I think Ichiro will age pretty well. All he has to do is just make contact and he can beat out a lot of hits. Bobby Cox says he is the best defensive RF he has ever seen so you think he could play center if he wanted to.
Extreme GB pitchers don't need to have high K rates.
as i said before, a trade like that might cost cano or wang
in which case, while they both showed that they have talent,
wang has just shown such poised. i mean, the guy was our game 2 pitcher in the alds. and really it was a game he and the team could've won. based on some of our recent pitching aquisitions, you can't buy someone who'll respond well in NY, but from the farm, wang has.
so, i would say do not trade wang...even if for ichiro
Johnny O
11-02-05, 09:14 PM
I am interested. I would want to trade off Carl "The Pain is in my Head" Pavano and eat 1/2 his salary. Wang I am doubtful. I know his numbers aren't great but he did look good this year. Calm and collected. One thing that people have always wondered about is how well Ichiro and Matsui get along. In public they say all the right things but people have doubts. Supposedly Ichiro, a 4th round draft choice who played for a smaller marke team, resents the national hero out of high school who played for The Team in Japan, the Yomouri Giants. Although they didn't really know each other over there, having played in an exhibition series once. But remember two years ago there were reports Kaz Matsui didn't want to be on the same team as Hideki Matsui so he went to the Mets (no great loss as it turned out).
I think Ichiro will age pretty well. All he has to do is just make contact and he can beat out a lot of hits. Bobby Cox says he is the best defensive RF he has ever seen so you think he could play center if he wanted to.
Players who primarily rely on speed tend to collapse quickly as they age. Unless the deal was highly favorable (and I don't know Suzuki's contract), I would say no.
Johnny O
11-02-05, 09:23 PM
Extreme GB pitchers don't need to have high K rates.
Agreed, but Wang's was ridiculously low. That being said, his minor league stats do indicate that his K rate will rise quite a bit and that the low K rate this year was a fluke. If he can get the K rate to 5.5 to 6 per 9, he'll have a very nice career considering his great GB ratio. And barring injury, of course.
shotgun_sam
11-02-05, 09:34 PM
I'm AMAZED at the posts on this subject so far...well then again, maybe not. Allllllllllll year the topics of OF defense and Bernie's lack of range and arm were driven into the ground, and wheter Jeter was a good enough leadoff guy, and who in the world we could get to replace, from Kotsay (earlier this summer) to now Hunter, Wilkerson, and god forbid, Damon.
Ichiro Suzuki might want out of Seattle????
And you people DON'T want him???
The best OF glove in the AL.
An arm so good that he was used as a pitcher in the Japanese All-Star game.
Hits leadoff, and hits ALOT.
oh yeah, had 14 home runs this year.
moves faster than that girl from "The Ring"
and even better, his natural position in Japan was CF. Not even mentioning how much the country of Japan would go off with its two biggest stars playing on the same team.
And yet...I'm reading "too much money", "he's getting old", "declining"....whatever, that's bull, Ichiro is an elite player, and is worth aquiring...IMO people on this board regard Duncan and some of our minor leaguers a little too highly, not too mention the deity-status Cano and Wang hold. Just think about the lineup with Ichiro leading off, and yeah...i'd say trade whatever minor leaguers it took to get him, and we don't have to hand out a fortune to a free agent this year.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 09:36 PM
Exactly - you'd be paying for Ichiro! but you'd really be getting Suzuki - a player who's entire offensive value is tied into his batting average, and when he doesn't hit .370 he's not worth it. His 2001 MVP season was one of the biggest jokes in recent baseball memory - Giambi's OPS was .300 point higher!
People used to complain about this all the time a few years ago. For some reason I don't hear it as much these days. ;)
And barring injury, of course.
Bingo. Did Wang hit 96 after coming back from the DL?
I'm not saying Wang is a bad pitcher, I'm just saying that he's not untradable. He has clear vulnerabilities that teams will exploit now that they've seen him, and his future as a starter is less clear than it's been made out to be by many who were impressed by his results this year, without looking too closely has how he achieved those results.
Back to Ichiro - his 'decline' IMO is because the league has adjusted to him. There's a book on how to pitch Ichiro now so he'll never reach the heights he did early on, but I don't expect him to fall off a cliff. And at 33, I don't see his speed disappearing in the next two years.
There might be better options out there, but losing one SP - whether Pavano, Wright or Wang (or Small plus a prospect) - for Ichiro or another speedy OF with a decent bat would not be a terrible deal IMO.
The real problem with all this is 1) its a rumor and 2) I'm reluctant to move any pitching until mid-season or at least ST. Let the coaching staff have at 'em first.
NYDCYankee
11-02-05, 09:47 PM
Let's resign Matsui and then trade him for Ichiro.
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 09:47 PM
All I can say is, if this is true that Ichiro wants out of Seatlle, you better believe we should be first in line to attempt to trade for him.
I would pack Wang's bags for him if he had to be included in this trade.
With his speed/batting average/range/gun for an arm, he is EVERYTHING we need in a center fielder. Sure his batting average was relatively low for Ichiro's standards this season, but come on guys this is one of the most dynamic players of the last 5 years we are talking about here. One of the most professional hitters this league has seen since Pete Rose. This is an oppertunity that must be taken advantage of if we are luckily given the chance.
And for all of you who say a trade like this "might" cost us cano or wang, it WILL cost us one of those and it will be a trade that will certainly be worth it.
YankeePride1967
11-02-05, 09:51 PM
Players who primarily rely on speed tend to collapse quickly as they age. Unless the deal was highly favorable (and I don't know Suzuki's contract), I would say no.
He has 2/26 left.
it WILL cost us one of those and it will be a trade that will certainly be worth it.
Cano, no, wouldn't be worth it IMO.
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 09:56 PM
Cano, no, wouldn't be worth it IMO.
Well this guy will certainly wont come free, and we cant expect the Mariners to trade their lone attraction, their franchise player for peanuts.
If we can somehow get Pavano involved in this trade along with cash (and other players as well of course)I would do backflips
ring403
11-02-05, 09:59 PM
Players who primarily rely on speed tend to collapse quickly as they age. Unless the deal was highly favorable (and I don't know Suzuki's contract), I would say no.
Ichiro Suzuki of
4 years/$44M (2004-07)
* $6M signing bonus
* 04:$5M, 05:$11M, 06:$11M, 07:$11M; avoided arbitration 12/03
* housing allowance ($28,000 in 04, $29,000 in 05, $30,000 in 06, $31,000 in 07)
* interpreter, trainer, ground transportation for Spring Training & regular season
* 4 annual round-trip airline tickets from Seattle to Japan
* $1.5M in incentives for PAs:
o $50,000 each for 400 PAs, 2004-06
$0.1M each for 500 & 600 PAs, 2004-06
$0.1M for 400 PAs, 2007
$0.2M for 500 & 600 PAs, 2007
* $50,000 All Star incentive
* 3 years/$14.088M (2001-03)
* $5M signing bonus, 01:$5M, 02:$2M, 03:$3M
* $7M deferred with interest ($4M of bonus, $2M of 2001 salary, $1M of 2003 salary)
* incentives: 01:$2M, 02:$3M, plus $0.125M All Star incentive
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005_01_11_mlbcontracts_archive.html
NYDCYankee
11-02-05, 10:00 PM
Well this guy will certainly wont come free, and we cant expect the Mariners to trade their lone attraction, their franchise player for peanuts.
If we can somehow get Pavano involved in this trade along with cash (and other players as well of course)I would do backflips
They have other attractions. I predict they have next years CY Young winner.
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 10:04 PM
They have other attractions. I predict they have next years CY Young winner.
I totally forgot about King Felix, my bad.
This helps us out believe it or not
flymick24
11-02-05, 10:10 PM
I'd worry about the communication in the OF with Matsui.
i thought you were funnier when you didn't try so hard
27IsNext
11-02-05, 10:14 PM
Will they take him straight up for Pavano or Wright? If not, pass.
I Love Wang
11-02-05, 10:15 PM
Bingo. Did Wang hit 96 after coming back from the DL?
Yes, he did.
ANSKYcm
11-02-05, 10:19 PM
First, I would offer: Pavano, Henn, Womack (and pay his salary, dont they need a 2B?), and Kevin Thompson
If they say no= Wang, Pavano/Wright, Thompson
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 10:22 PM
Will they take him straight up for Pavano or Wright? If not, pass.
No chance they take Pavano or Wright straight up for Ichiro - thats the stuff dreams are made of
surge511
11-02-05, 10:25 PM
People who think Pavano could be traded straight up with cash for Ichiro are kidding themselves. At least one bluechip prospect would have to be included in the deal for the Ms to even consider it.
I Love Wang
11-02-05, 10:26 PM
The Mariners would ask for a king's ransom for Ichiro!, and they'll get it from someone. And I don't want it to be us.
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 10:29 PM
How about a nice Sheff, Pavano and Henn deal along with cash...this allows the Mariners to still be competitive even though they are giving up their best player, and it allows us to get younger (assuming we play Ichiro in right) and dump Pavano's bad contract as well as Henn's unpredictbale future.
I Love Wang
11-02-05, 10:33 PM
How about a nice Sheff, Pavano and Henn deal along with cash...this allows the Mariners to still be competitive even though they are giving up their best player, and it allows us to get younger (assuming we play Ichiro in right) and dump Pavano's bad contract as well as Henn's unpredictbale future.
Wjat dp we gain by playing Ichiro! over Sheffield? Sheffield is better.
27IsNext
11-02-05, 10:35 PM
If we're going to give up Sheffield, it better be for a young star in the making.
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 10:37 PM
Wjat dp we gain by playing Ichiro! over Sheffield? Sheffield is better.
Sheff is a better power hitter but we have enough of those already. Ichiro is a great situational hitter, he is younger, faster, has more range, and a better arm(although sheff's is well above average)..so I guess thats what we get by playing Ichiro over Sheff. Need anything else??
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 10:38 PM
If we're going to give up Sheffield, it better be for a young star in the making.
Why would a team give up a young star in the making for and old veteran on the decline, who proved to us that he will most likely carry a nagging injury at the end of every season at the time we need him most
shotgun_sam
11-02-05, 10:40 PM
If there's a scenario where we can dump Pavano and land Ichiro, then do it. He's worth a high level prospect.
Oh, and people saying no: you think Hunter won't cost just as much?
We have to have a CF.
27IsNext
11-02-05, 10:42 PM
Why would a team give up a young star in the making for and old veteran on the decline, who proved to us that he will most likely carry a nagging injury at the end of every season at the time we need him most
Because he's one of the best hitters in the game? It doesn't have to be the next A-Rod, Pujols, et al, but if we're going to trade him (and likely pay a chunk of his salary), we'd better get a lot more back than Torii Hunter and some retread minor leaguer, for example.
Just because we're the Yankees doesn't give other teams the right to fleece us on deals.
ring403
11-02-05, 10:44 PM
Why would a team give up a young star in the making for and old veteran on the decline
That's exactly why the Yankees should not give up Wang and others for Ichiro.
I Love Wang
11-02-05, 10:45 PM
Sheff is a better power hitter but we have enough of those already. Ichiro is a great situational hitter, he is younger, faster, has more range, and a better arm(although sheff's is well above average)..so I guess thats what we get by playing Ichiro over Sheff. Need anything else??
Sheff also gets on base more. He's a better player.
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 10:46 PM
That's exactly why the Yankees should not give up Wang and others for Ichiro.
How can you say Ichiro is an old veteran on the decline?
I need some stats to back up the fact that he is on the decline
27IsNext
11-02-05, 10:47 PM
Players tend to decline in their thirties?
I Love Wang
11-02-05, 10:47 PM
How can you say Ichiro is an old veteran on the decline?
I need some stats to back up the fact that he is on the decline
.786 OPS last year.
.786 OPS last year.
.819 for his career. He's definitely overrated and overpaid.
ring403
11-02-05, 10:54 PM
.786 OPS last year.
A full 105 points lower than the aging and declining Gary Sheffield.
I Love Wang
11-02-05, 10:54 PM
.819 for his career. He's definitely overrated and overpaid.
But he Plays The Game The Right Way.
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 11:02 PM
Players tend to decline in their thirties?
Would you agree that Ichiro is an elite player? and with that I mean top 7-15 players in the game...
He is 33 right now, and barring injury I cant see why this guy cant be outstanding in his 36-38 age period. He is so fast that even if he loses a step he would still be one of the faster players in the game. And his baseball instincts are excellent..again this is barring any injury
I Love Wang
11-02-05, 11:07 PM
Would you agree that Ichiro is an elite player? and with that I mean top 7-15 players in the game...
No. He's not.
He is 33 right now, and barring injury I cant see why this guy cant be outstanding in his 36-38 age period. He is so fast that even if he loses a step he would still be one of the faster players in the game. And his baseball instincts are excellent..again this is barring any injury
Unfortunately he has very little power, and doesn't walk enough. So when he loses a step, he'll become average. Kind of like this year.
He also seems too willing to put personal statistical accomplishments ahead of team goals.
ryanthe13th
11-02-05, 11:24 PM
Get him, but keep Wang and Cano in the process.
NYDCYankee
11-02-05, 11:24 PM
He also seems too willing to put personal statistical accomplishments ahead of team goals.
But he wants to win right? Isn't that why he is complaining about the current state of the M's?
THEBOSS84
11-02-05, 11:25 PM
He also seems too willing to put personal statistical accomplishments ahead of team goals.
If you are referring to him trying to break the hits record two seasons ago, I dont see how he put himself before the team
AMYanks
11-02-05, 11:26 PM
Pavano and Wright for Ichiro. Nothing more.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:26 PM
.819 for his career. He's definitely overrated and overpaid.
I'll agree with the overrated, but not with overpaid. Maybe if all he brought was his baseball game, but he is probably the top player who brings in revenue off the field.
JeffWeaverFan
11-02-05, 11:26 PM
Not a chance in hell for two reasons. 1. He is extremely overated. 2. He would cost a whole sh*tload in prospects.
JeffWeaverFan
11-02-05, 11:27 PM
If you are referring to him trying to break the hits record two seasons ago, I dont see how he put himself before the team
Because he wants to be a leadoff hitter to get the most AB's during the course of the season and because he tries to hit singles instead of hitting for power (which he can do) and getting on base with walks.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:28 PM
Pavano and Wright for Ichiro. Nothing more.
Perhaps we can get Lidge for Womack too.
mickey mantle
11-02-05, 11:30 PM
Perhaps we can get Lidge for Womack too.
maybe not after what i saw lidge do in the playoffs
Bingo. Did Wang hit 96 after coming back from the DL?
I'm not saying Wang is a bad pitcher, I'm just saying that he's not untradable. He has clear vulnerabilities that teams will exploit now that they've seen him, and his future as a starter is less clear than it's been made out to be by many who were impressed by his results this year, without looking too closely has how he achieved those results.
Back to Ichiro - his 'decline' IMO is because the league has adjusted to him. There's a book on how to pitch Ichiro now so he'll never reach the heights he did early on, but I don't expect him to fall off a cliff. And at 33, I don't see his speed disappearing in the next two years.
There might be better options out there, but losing one SP - whether Pavano, Wright or Wang (or Small plus a prospect) - for Ichiro or another speedy OF with a decent bat would not be a terrible deal IMO.
The real problem with all this is 1) its a rumor and 2) I'm reluctant to move any pitching until mid-season or at least ST. Let the coaching staff have at 'em first.
He did hit 95-96 after his injury. There was nothing wrong with his sinker, velocity or movement-wise.
Chien-Ming Wang has a chance to be a good to very good young pitcher that plays for us for the league-minimum salary. This is the type of player that we always see other teams have while we have the 37 year old that makes $14 mil, making us all wish we had a better farm system or had made better deals in the past. Chien-Ming Wang is an extremely desired commodity, the kind we have been wishing for for 3 or so years. I would say if it werent for the history of shoulder inflammation (and maybe being 3 years older) he would be much more valuable than Robinson Cano.
Other teams wont take our older high-priced veterans for their young, league-minimum salary pitchers (and we all wish they would) so why should we do something similar?
Ichiro Suzuki didn't hit his heights early on. 2004, his 4th season, was his best (he had an .865 OPS breaking the record for hits in a season, he won't do that again). 2005, his 5th season, was his worst. Its not really pitchers adjusting to him, he just slaps the ball around. It was him making slightly worse contact and beating out slightly less plays, probably resulting from being a little slower (but mainly due to the random chance that affects all singles hitters).
Ichiro is a good hitter, but not great and definitely not that good for a corner outfielder. Being a great defensive outfielder makes him a better than average player, and if he was a center fielder for us he'd almost be worth the money. I'd still trade for him in a second if the deal was right, but definitely no young possible future stars.
I would definitely trade Carl Pavano for Ichiro. Seattle would probably not do this deal because Pavano is about as high an injury risk there is besides JD Drew (and Jaret Wright, but his contract isn't quite as big), and they both have dumb long guaranteed contracts. Pavano may also be fairly young still and have as good stuff as Wang at best, but the point is he makes a ton of money and Wang makes almost none. That makes Wang A) much easier on our payroll, freeing up cash for everything and B) much more tradeable for another player than Pavano.
AMYanks
11-02-05, 11:32 PM
Perhaps we can get Lidge for Womack too.
My point was that he's not worth anything of great value. Obviously we wouldn't get him for that, but we should not be trading any of our prospects for an overrated player like Ichiro.
I'll agree with the overrated, but not with overpaid. Maybe if all he brought was his baseball game, but he is probably the top player who brings in revenue off the field.
While you may well be correct that his off the field appeal makes his contract more reasonable, as I fan rather than a stockholder, I tend to focus solely on baseball considerations.
But he wants to win right? Isn't that why he is complaining about the current state of the M's?
He may well believe that his approach to the game dovetails with winning. If so, I would disagree.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:36 PM
My point was that he's not worth anything of great value. Obviously we wouldn't get him for that, but we should not be trading any of our prospects for an overrated player like Ichiro.
But many teams would. I don't think he is a good fit with the Yankees either. He's a better fit with a team that has a boatload of good prospects and wouldn't miss them as much as well as trying to break into the Japanese market.
AMYanks
11-02-05, 11:38 PM
But many teams would. I don't think he is a good fit with the Yankees either. He's a better fit with a team that has a boatload of good prospects and wouldn't miss them as much as well as trying to break into the Japanese market.
Ok, then hopefully someone will trade an abundance of prospects for him. Like you said, it's not a good fit for us. Plus, we already have our Japanese cash cow.
If you are referring to him trying to break the hits record two seasons ago, I dont see how he put himself before the team
I think he would be more valuable if he utilized his power (in the general sense of SLG, not merely HR power) more often, instead of merely cuing the ball up to put it in play.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:38 PM
While you may well be correct that his off the field appeal makes his contract more reasonable, as I fan rather than a stockholder, I tend to focus solely on baseball considerations.
Then any player's salary shouldn't matter at all. Ichiro will make whatever team he is on money. How he does that shouldn't matter IMO.
Then any player's salary shouldn't matter at all. Ichiro will make whatever team he is on money. How he does that shouldn't matter IMO.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm saying that I think he is overpaid given his on the field production, irrespective of the off the field income he generates.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:40 PM
Ok, then hopefully someone will trade an abundance of prospects for him. Like you said, it's not a good fit for us. Plus, we already have our Japanese cash cow.
Exactly, as long as we have Matsui, Ichiro isn't worth as much to us. I would hate seeing him in Boston though since it would lead to the Sox becoming the most popular team in Japan. :mad:
AMYanks
11-02-05, 11:42 PM
Exactly, as long as we have Matsui, Ichiro isn't worth as much to us. I would hate seeing him in Boston though since it would lead to the Sox becoming the most popular team in Japan. :mad:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Matsui considered the more popular player in Japan?
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:44 PM
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm saying that I think he is overpaid given his on the field production, irrespective of the off the field income he generates.
Would it be better if he was underpaid on the field, but brought in no money for the team? He's still a good value for the team in the bottomline. Any team trading for him isn't going to worry about his contract at all.
TEPLimey
11-02-05, 11:44 PM
My (realistic) proposal?
Pavano, Small/Henn, Melky, and cash for Ichiro. Sign Matsuzaka. Sign Vernon Wells in 2008.
Pavano is dead weight, in my opinion. Small and Henn are what they are. Henn has hit his top value... he's a B+ prospect at best. Small is 10-0, but is a career AAAA player. Melky... well, he's expendable if we get Ichiro and Wells. I will take the proven player over the unproven prospect any day of the week (provided that player isn't over the hill) and twice on Sundays.
This proposal covers CF for the next 6-7 years with all-stars for a bust, a peaking overachiever (or Henn), a decent prospect, and cash. What's not to like?
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:46 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Matsui considered the more popular player in Japan?
They are very close, but also appeal to different fan bases.
I wrote about this on another board once. I'll see if I can find it, although it's just my opinion.
Matt_Nokes
11-02-05, 11:48 PM
Ichiro was asked after the Mariners' final game if he would ever consider asking for a trade. His answer, through interpreter Allen Turner, was quick: "No."
Tony Attanasio (Ichiro's Agent) said, "Asking for a trade doesn't come into it. That is not something Japanese players do."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2002567480_ichiro18.html
Even if Ichiro does demand a trade, I don't see the Mariners doing it without getting a huge return. Wang and Cano would just be the starting point.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:48 PM
Can't seem to get the edit to work.
-----------------------------------
It's really hard to compare Ichiro and Matsui and determine who is more popular. It's not clear cut at all since they are very different.
Matsui played for the Tokyo Giants. They are both the most popular team in Japan while also the most hated team. If you go to Tokyo, Matsui is far, far more popular. In west Japan, I would say Ichiro is.
Beyond that, they appeal to different people. Japan really is a changing nation and Matsui appeals to the middle aged men, the so called salaryman then Ichiro. Matsui is more like them: stoic, quiet, loyal, obsessed with porn. He's a good representative middle aged Japan.
To the older people, Ichiro is seen more of being cocky, a punk, a showboater, but to the younger people he is seen as cool and flashy.
You can definitely see it in their advertising.
Matsui advertises for Car stuff/airplanes/beer and vegetable juice.
Ichiro advertises for sports and vitamin drinks beer (every famous Japanese person will) sunglasses and clothes.
If I had to make a choice, I think Ichiro is more popular these days. I've never lived in Tokyo so it might just be my opinion from living in West Japan though.
Would it be better if he was underpaid on the field, but brought in no money for the team? He's still a good value for the team in the bottomline.
From my perspective as a fan, yes it would. Every team, including the Yankees, has a budget. Consequently, by signing players at as low a contract as is possible affords a team more flexibility to sign other good players.
Any team trading for him isn't going to worry about his contract at all.
I disagree. Most teams can't afford him.
JapanJobbers
11-02-05, 11:59 PM
From my perspective as a fan, yes it would. Every team, including the Yankees, has a budget. Consequently, by signing players at as low a contract as is possible affords a team more flexibility to sign other good players.
Most overpaid players do what they do on the field and that's all they bring to the table. Ichiro adds to the revenue stream. There are a lot of bad contracts out there. I just don't see Ichiro's being a problem. The M's won't have to eat any of it to trade him.
Most overpaid players do what they do on the field and that's all they bring to the table. Ichiro adds to the revenue stream. There are a lot of bad contracts out there. I just don't see Ichiro's being a problem. The M's won't have to eat any of it to trade him.
They will if they want to trade to all but a handful of teams.
ryanthe13th
11-03-05, 12:21 AM
People in this thread are criticizing him for hitting .303 w/ 15 HRs, 68 RBIs and 111 Runs Scored. I am speechless.
NYDCYankee
11-03-05, 12:25 AM
People in this thread are criticizing him for hitting .303 w/ 15 HRs, 68 RBIs and 111 Runs Scored. I am speechless.
It must be because he didn't break his own hits record this year.
ryanthe13th
11-03-05, 12:33 AM
It must be because he didn't break his own hits record this year.
Bingo.
People in this thread are criticizing him for hitting .303 w/ 15 HRs, 68 RBIs and 111 Runs Scored. I am speechless.
Those stats don't measure production anywhere near as well as EQA and OPS. His EQA was .279. His OPS was .786. Those aren't great stats.
ryanthe13th
11-03-05, 01:01 AM
Those stats don't measure production anywhere near as well as EQA and OPS. His EQA was .279. His OPS was .786. Those aren't great stats.
I am just noticing a trend on these boards that whenever a gifted athlete that has a slightly high price tag is brought up in regards to coming here, suddenly there are a million reasons why this person should not be a Yankee or why they're overrated. You can't argue that Ichiro is an above average(to say the least) hitter and fielder. It's absurd to do so, and to knock him for having a 'down year' while still hitting over .300 is insane.
I am just noticing a trend on these boards that whenever a gifted athlete that has a slightly high price tag is brought up in regards to coming here, suddenly there are a million reasons why this person should not be a Yankee or why they're overrated. You can't argue that Ichiro is an above average(to say the least) hitter and fielder. It's absurd to do so, and to knock him for having a 'down year' while still hitting over .300 is insane.
Perhaps that is because some of us believe that the key to the team that won the four rings was the development of a home grown core, and to trade for Ichiro, much of the upcoming group of prospects and young players that can form the next homegrown core would have to be sacrificed.
Although I place more importance on OBP and SLG than AVG, I do acknowledge that Ichiro is an above average player. He's just not worth cost in assets that it would take to acquire him.
NYDCYankee
11-03-05, 01:33 AM
Although I place more importance on OBP and SLG than AVG, I do acknowledge that Ichiro is an above average player. He's just not worth cost in assets that it would take to acquire him.
We don't know what it will cost yet. I think it should be explored at least.
yankeesAZ
11-03-05, 01:43 AM
I haven't heard any chatter out here at all about this rumor other than on the M's boards quoting the same article. Here's what some locals think:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/forum/boards/viewtopic.asp?topicid=69182
To say the least, it would not go over well with the fans here if he were to leave.
We don't know what it will cost yet. I think it should be explored at least.
I wouldn't give up Cano, Wang, or one top prospect for him. I cannot conceive that a package can be assembled, given those restrictions, that would get it done.
Also, the Yankees want to cut payroll. Acquring a player with Ichiro's contract makes that goal very hard to achieve.
Stupid Flanders
11-03-05, 03:21 AM
I want nothing to do with him. He's a one dimensional hitter with no power whose only real asset is speed. He's 33. Expect a huge decline.
Yankee Steve
11-03-05, 04:53 AM
I want nothing to do with him. He's a one dimensional hitter with no power whose only real asset is speed. He's 33. Expect a huge decline.
Surely, you are kidding. Ichiro's overwhelming majority of hits are not of the infield variety. They are line drives. To say he has no power is also not true. Many have mentioned the fact that the guy is a homerun machine in BP, and that Ichiro CHOOSES to be a slap hitter because he believes that hitting for average is more important, much like Wade Boggs. If he decided, with the short porch in RF at the Stadium, to hit for more power, I believe he could. Yes, he can run, but why detract from that asset? I am not saying we should sacrifice the farm for him, but to say that he is one-dimensional is a bit far-fetched. Having him batting leadoff for the Yankees and having his defense in the OF (whether it is RF or CF), would clearly be a huge boon to this team.
Saxmania
11-03-05, 05:52 AM
Many have mentioned the fact that the guy is a homerun machine in BP, and that Ichiro CHOOSES to be a slap hitter because he believes that hitting for average is more important, much like Wade Boggs. If he decided, with the short porch in RF at the Stadium, to hit for more power, I believe he could.
A nice trick if true. If Ichiro hit .280/.360/.520, he would be more valuable to his team than hitting .340/.380/.400. And his defense would be of far more value to the Yankees in CF than in RF. If Ichiro agreed to come to New York to play CF, and it only cost prospects of the order of Henn (or some cash), then I'd do it. But that won't happen, so I'm against trading for him.
And for the love of all that is good, will people please stop insisting on Ichiro leading off instead of Jeter in the hypothetical situation that he's a Yankee. Derek Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro Suzuki. Derek Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than he is a number 2 hitter. The combination of these two facts mean that Jeter should hit 1, and Ichiro 2.
Not that this will happen, of course.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
While Ichiro might be an above-average hitter, I respectfully submit that the Yankees have nothing to do with him.
As with some of the other trade proposals on this board recently, this one also defies economic principles; principles of business: cost.
Cost, cost, cost. What will acquiring Mr. Suzuki cost us, the Yankees? Several proposals on this board will have us trading Pavano and/or Wright and/or Wang and/or Melky and/or Thompson (?) and/or the infamous "top prospect".
Please hang on a second while I gag.
The problem with the above mentioned proposals is that we are giving up significant pitching.
Our rotation stands as follows (and think of the question marks in terms of stars - you know, one ? being the lowest risk and 5 being the highest)
Randy Johnson - ???
Mike Mussina - ?????
Shawn Chacon - ??
Wang - ??
Wright - ???
Small - ????
As you can see, there is not a SINGLE sure-fire bet in our starting rotation. Each pitcher has small to significant issues. To suggest that we give up one/two/three starters in return for Jeter II, is not prudent.
The asking price for Ichiro is too high. We cannot give up Sheffield, who is arguably the second best hitter in this lineup. If we give up SP, we need to find replacements. Who are they? I'm not hanging my hat on Millwood. Our pitching prospects are atleast a year away.
Clearly, the money, the cost and the replacement players drive us in only one direction: Away from Ichiro.
Thank you.
Babe Rules
11-03-05, 06:46 AM
Food for thought:
Ichiro had .298 AVG and .850 OPS with RISP this season.
From 2002-2004 he had .337 AVG and .896 OPS with RISP including .367 and 1.017 with RISP 2 outs.
MTYankee23
11-03-05, 07:27 AM
While Ichiro might be an above-average hitter, I respectfully submit that the Yankees have nothing to do with him.
As with some of the other trade proposals on this board recently, this one also defies economic principles; principles of business: cost.
Cost, cost, cost. What will acquiring Mr. Suzuki cost us, the Yankees? Several proposals on this board will have us trading Pavano and/or Wright and/or Wang and/or Melky and/or Thompson (?) and/or the infamous "top prospect".
Please hang on a second while I gag.
The problem with the above mentioned proposals is that we are giving up significant pitching.
Our rotation stands as follows (and think of the question marks in terms of stars - you know, one ? being the lowest risk and 5 being the highest)
Randy Johnson - ???
Mike Mussina - ?????
Shawn Chacon - ??
Wang - ??
Wright - ???
Small - ????
As you can see, there is not a SINGLE sure-fire bet in our starting rotation. Each pitcher has small to significant issues. To suggest that we give up one/two/three starters in return for Jeter II, is not prudent.
The asking price for Ichiro is too high. We cannot give up Sheffield, who is arguably the second best hitter in this lineup. If we give up SP, we need to find replacements. Who are they? I'm not hanging my hat on Millwood. Our pitching prospects are atleast a year away.
Clearly, the money, the cost and the replacement players drive us in only one direction: Away from Ichiro.
Thank you.
Tough to completely dismiss trading for him unless you postively know what they're asking for. The money isn't that big of a deal IN THIS PARTICULAR case, because the revenue they'd generate due to having 2 Japanese megastars would more than make up for it.
Of course the unseen problem here is that the media crunch in the clubhouse would get much much worse for that same reason.
In all honesty though, if I knew he could play a good defensive CF. He's worth Pavano and a prospect (save Hughes, maybe Duncan).
Tough to completely dismiss trading for him unless you postively know what they're asking for. The money isn't that big of a deal IN THIS PARTICULAR case, because the revenue they'd generate due to having 2 Japanese megastars would more than make up for it.
Of course the unseen problem here is that the media crunch in the clubhouse would get much much worse for that same reason.
In all honesty though, if I knew he could play a good defensive CF. He's worth Pavano and a prospect (save Hughes, maybe Duncan).
I would give up nothing more than a B- prospect. Maybe. What you're suggesting is giving up a solid #3 pitcher and anything lower than our #1 prospect (which includes #2, #3.. you get the idea).
We have some TERRIFIC prospects in the minors that will/should join the major-league team in the next few years; prospects that will be the mainstay of this lineup and rotation for years to come. Enough with the giving up solid prospects for quick fixes.
rightfielder21
11-03-05, 07:38 AM
Enough with the giving up solid prospects for quick fixes.
Agreed... We can get a very nice player to play CF for the nest few seasons, without giving up much...
The problem is that some think only "big name" players can fill the spot...
MTYankee23
11-03-05, 07:39 AM
I would give up nothing more than a B- prospect. Maybe.
We have some TERRIFIC prospects in the minors that will/should join the major-league team in the next few years; prospects that will be the mainstay of this lineup and rotation for years to come. Enough with the giving up solid prospects for quick fixes.
Haha, I don't think a B- prospect and Carl Pavano are all that much to trade away. This is probably best saved for another forumn, but that was one of the worst FA signings I've ever seen. 1 good season, on a great defensive team, and a guy who doesn't strike out many people at all. If our Front Office realizes before another front office that this past season was the norm and '04 the fluke the better off we'll be.
I Love Wang
11-03-05, 07:40 AM
We don't know what it will cost yet. I think it should be explored at least.
What we do know is that Ichiro!'s reputation is more substantial than his production. As a result, aquiring him will cost more than he's worth. He is considered to be an "elite" player, and simply is not. You'd be paying for a superstar and getting someone who, realistically, isn't close to that.
35Knucklecurve
11-03-05, 07:51 AM
I am a huge fan of Ichiro, but I cannot see parting with Cano or Wang to get him. Yes, it would give the Yankees a proven lead-off hitter (not that they don't already have one of the best) but right now, besides re-signing Matsui, the biggest concern is pitching. Who would they replace Wang with if he were to be traded? The pool of dependable, quality starters is pretty shallow right now. The White Sox just proved that you win with great pitching and the Yankees just proved that you can't bash your way to a championship.
Epy7280
11-03-05, 08:04 AM
Agreed... We can get a very nice player to play CF for the nest few seasons, without giving up much...
The problem is that some think only "big name" players can fill the spot...
I dont think we need a "Big name" for every positiion, but i always love Ichiro style of play. I think he would do very good things with the yankees.
1) Will catch balls that bernie wouldn't have reached.
2) more range, improves Defense, saves runs
3) less runners going to third from 1st on a base hit.
4) Hit for Avg.
5) Most importantly we no longer have to juggle who is the 2 hitter in the lineup. It will be Jeter's slot. Putting Arod in 3rd in the lineup where he belongs.
6)Short RF will be good for him if he decide he wants to hit for power.
7) We can get him and then next season have the option to move him to RF when Sheffield becomes a Free Agent and Sign Andrew Jones for Cf and then we will have one of the best defensive and offensive outfields in baseball.
8) We can finally see a play at the plate come from CF :P
Martini6196
11-03-05, 08:16 AM
I could see the Yankees giving up Pavano for Ichiro and then Pavano coming back to haunt us later on. I don't want to give up on Pavano just yet.
I could see the Yankees giving up Pavano for Ichiro and then Pavano coming back to haunt us later on. I don't want to give up on Pavano just yet.
I feel the same way. Ichiro has me curious, but not enough to give up on a starter before I see what the new coaching staff can do with them.
TheTinoMobile
11-03-05, 08:45 AM
I dont want Ichiro......he will take the spotlight off of Matsui......our dear and porven friend.
MTYankee23
11-03-05, 08:51 AM
I could see the Yankees giving up Pavano for Ichiro and then Pavano coming back to haunt us later on. I don't want to give up on Pavano just yet.
I don't think we have to worry about Pavano coming back to haunt anybody, he really isn't that good. I would LOVE him to prove me wrong here, but I don't see it.
Saxmania
11-03-05, 09:19 AM
5) Most importantly we no longer have to juggle who is the 2 hitter in the lineup. It will be Jeter's slot. Putting Arod in 3rd in the lineup where he belongs.
AAARRRGGHHH!!
Say with me: Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro. Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro. Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro.
This obsession with getting Derek Jeter, Yankee Captain fewer at-bats so that worse hitters can get more at-bats has to stop.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
I Love Wang
11-03-05, 09:28 AM
AAARRRGGHHH!!
Say with me: Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro. Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro. Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro.
This obsession with getting Derek Jeter, Yankee Captain fewer at-bats so that worse hitters can get more at-bats has to stop.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
BUT DON'T YOU THINK THAT JETER IS BETTER AS S #2 LOL ?!?!?!?!!!!!11111ONEONEELEVEN :D:D:D:D:D
the japanese media would eat this up if it ever happened, i dont think we can put anything up that wouldnt be damaging in the future for Ichiro
A nice trick if true. If Ichiro hit .280/.360/.520, he would be more valuable to his team than hitting .340/.380/.400. And his defense would be of far more value to the Yankees in CF than in RF. If Ichiro agreed to come to New York to play CF, and it only cost prospects of the order of Henn (or some cash), then I'd do it. But that won't happen, so I'm against trading for him.
And for the love of all that is good, will people please stop insisting on Ichiro leading off instead of Jeter in the hypothetical situation that he's a Yankee. Derek Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro Suzuki. Derek Jeter is a better leadoff hitter than he is a number 2 hitter. The combination of these two facts mean that Jeter should hit 1, and Ichiro 2.
Not that this will happen, of course.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
If Ichiro comes here he's batting 1st. I know that Jeter has better lead off numbers but Ichiro is more distracting to the pitchers and that's why I'm 100% sure that if he came here Torre would bat him first. You might not like it but that's where Torre would put him.
If Ichiro comes here he's batting 1st. You might not like it but that's where Torre would put him.
That is pretty much true.
I'm not so sure it would be easy to suddenly become a 20-25+ HR guy either, just because he is playing with the short RF. BP <<<<< Major League Pitching. It could happen, but I'd really have to see this first.
parkerstrong
11-03-05, 09:45 AM
Just say no to Ichiro because we can't trade for him without getting totally raped in a deal.
raped is to do so without consent. If we traded for Ichiro we are consenting for a trade. Please be careful with how you use that word.
iWant27
11-03-05, 09:53 AM
I would trade Wang for Ichiro . Wang had shoulder problems and you never know if its going to come back again . Ichiro is a proven leadoff hitter and great OF . And yankees need both . Derek is not bad as leadoff but i think he will be better in the 2 hole with A-Rod and Sheff behind him . Ichiro and Derek in front of them , one of them will be on base most of the time .
I say if they are asking for Wang , yankees should atleast listen to it .
I Love Wang
11-03-05, 09:58 AM
raped is to do so without consent. If we traded for Ichiro we are consenting for a trade. Please be careful with how you use that word.
Its an expression. Would "sodomized" make you happier?
parkerstrong
11-03-05, 10:01 AM
Its an expression. Would "sodomized" make you happier?
It is an horrible expression. You obvouisly dont know the implications of it to the victim and their friends and family. Sodomized is also a bad word to use. How about ripped off? That couldnt get the point across?
Why can't people get it into their heads that Jeter was the best leadoff hitter in baseball last year?
WE DON'T NEED A LEADOFF HITTER!!!!
It is an horrible expression. You obvouisly dont know the implications of it to the victim and their friends and family. Sodomized is also a bad word to use. How about ripped off? That couldnt get the point across?
I'm sorry if it offended you. People use the word all the time and I didn't think anyone would have a problem with it.
mjdlight
11-03-05, 10:07 AM
Why can't people get it into their heads that Jeter was the best leadoff hitter in baseball last year?
WE DON'T NEED A LEADOFF HITTER!!!!
Yeah, but...its all media hype...umm. Yeah.
destiNY
11-03-05, 10:08 AM
http://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_3168307
I dont know if it is true or not. But you think the yankees could package something to get him and play him as our CenterFielder. I think once Torre played him in CF in the All star game. It wasn't to long ago when he played A-rod at 3rd base at the all star game and look where he is now :P.
Ichiro can play CF and I would trade for Duncan for him.
Ichiro can play CF and I would trade for Duncan for him.
Why would you trade one of our top prospects for a 33 y/o OF who's entire game is based on speed?
parkerstrong
11-03-05, 10:14 AM
I'm sorry if it offended you. People use the word all the time and I didn't think anyone would have a problem with it.
I didnt mean to attack you personally. I just think that expression shouldnt be used at all.
I didnt mean to attack you personally. I just think that expression shouldnt be used at all.
Ok.
...
Saxmania
11-03-05, 10:20 AM
If Ichiro comes here he's batting 1st. I know that Jeter has better lead off numbers but Ichiro is more distracting to the pitchers and that's why I'm 100% sure that if he came here Torre would bat him first. You might not like it but that's where Torre would put him.
I would think Ichiro's antics would be more useful to the team with another runner on base ahead of him. Seriously, the player with arguably the best bat control in the game - you wouldn't want him able to hit and run with Jeter on 1st? Just because Ichiro's hitting fits a certain style shouldn't mark him for the one place in the order where the pitcher's nearly guaranteed not to have any runners on to worry about!
Not saying you disagree, but this is beginning to wind me up. Ichiro surely fits the model of a #2 hitter better than Jeter does, and Jeter fits the mold of a #1 hitter better than Ichiro does. Jeter walks. Ichiro hit-and-runs him to 3rd. A-Rod doubles. Giambi homers.
But I don't want Ichiro here anyway at the price it'll take, so never mind.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Saxmania
11-03-05, 10:21 AM
Ichiro is a proven leadoff hitter and great OF . And yankees need both . Derek is not bad as leadoff but i think he will be better in the 2 hole with A-Rod and Sheff behind him.
Again, Jeter's a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro, and has hit better at #1 than #2.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
I would think Ichiro's antics would be more useful to the team with another runner on base ahead of him. Seriously, the player with arguably the best bat control in the game - you wouldn't want him able to hit and run with Jeter on 1st? Just because Ichiro's hitting fits a certain style shouldn't mark him for the one place in the order where the pitcher's nearly guaranteed not to have any runners on to worry about!
Not saying you disagree, but this is beginning to wind me up. Ichiro surely fits the model of a #2 hitter better than Jeter does, and Jeter fits the mold of a #1 hitter better than Ichiro does. Jeter walks. Ichiro hit-and-runs him to 3rd. A-Rod doubles. Giambi homers.
But I don't want Ichiro here anyway at the price it'll take, so never mind.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
If Ichiro comes to NY he's gonna bat leadoff, thats where I would put him and that's where Torre would put him. Jeter's career OBP is only 10 points higher than Ichiro. Jeter isn't the speedster that Ichiro is and that's really the deciding factor in the whole thing. Jeter isn't gonna run as often as Ichiro or be as succesful in his base steeling attempts as Ichiro. Any any other scenario you'd bat Jeter leadoff but not if Ichiro is on your team, it just isn't gonna happen.
parkerstrong
11-03-05, 10:28 AM
Jeter can handle the bat pretty well in regards to hitting and running so him batting second behind Ichiro isnt necessarily a bad thing. I would like Ichiro to be a Yankee, but it depends on who we give up.
If Ichiro comes to NY he's gonna bat leadoff, thats where I would put him and that's where Torre would put him. Jeter's career OBP is only 10 points higher than Ichiro. Jeter isn't the speedster that Ichiro is and that's really the deciding factor in the whole thing. Jeter isn't gonna run as often as Ichiro or be as succesful in his base steeling attempts as Ichiro. Any any other scenario you'd bat Jeter leadoff but not if Ichiro is on your team, it just isn't gonna happen.
Speed doesn't do sh*t when you can't get on base, plus Jeter's a better base stealer:
Jeter: 57 CS out of 215
Ichiro: 56 CS out of 190
So not only does Ichiro makes more outs than Jeter at the plate, he also makes more outs on the bases.
apolansk
11-03-05, 10:42 AM
I want nothing to do with him. He's a one dimensional hitter with no power whose only real asset is speed. He's 33. Expect a huge decline.
Psst...as a lefty in Safeco Field he hit 15 HRs last year. Yankee Stadium is a little bit of a smaller park for a left hitter, don't ya think?
ChinMusic
11-03-05, 10:49 AM
If the rumor is true, and Ichiro is that unhappy, then that advertising revenue might dwindle. The "product" would be a miserable and unhappy Ichiro - "Drink Sapporo!". Doesn't work.
I guess you didnt hear that a Jewish consortium has bought Sapporo beer. The new ad slogan is "Drink Shapiro".
yanksphan
11-03-05, 10:54 AM
Speed doesn't do sh*t when you can't get on base, plus Jeter's a better base stealer:
Jeter: 57 CS out of 215
Ichiro: 56 CS out of 190
So not only does Ichiro makes more outs than Jeter at the plate, he also makes more outs on the bases.
190 stolen base attempts? I'd say he gets on base pretty damn well...
190 stolen base attempts? I'd say he gets on base pretty damn well...
No, that's 190 SB in his career with 56 CS. Jeter's is 215 SB in his career with 57 CS. That means Jeter steals bases at a better clip.
Kolbenschlag
11-03-05, 11:03 AM
Speed doesn't do sh*t when you can't get on base, plus Jeter's a better base stealer:
Jeter: 57 CS out of 215
Ichiro: 56 CS out of 190
So not only does Ichiro makes more outs than Jeter at the plate, he also makes more outs on the bases.
You forgot to mention that Jeter's been playing 5 years longer than Ichiro. So while Jeter has 215 SB in 1525 games, Ichiro has 190 in 796 games.
So for an average season, Ichiro Steals base 39 times, and has 11 CS,
While jeter takes 23 and is CS 6.
To make a statement implying that Ichiro's speed "doesn't do Sh*t" takes away all credibility you have. It makes me think that you've never seen him play. "when you can't get on base"?? I don't beleive we are watching the same guy here. Sure, Jeter has a higher OBP but just look at Ichiros AVG numbers.
I love Derek Jeter, but would I rather have Ichiro Lead off and Jeter in the 2 spot? In a heartbeat, and anyone who says otherwise is
You forgot to mention that Jeter's been playing 5 years longer than Ichiro. So while Jeter has 215 SB in 1525 games, Ichiro has 190 in 796 games.
So for an average season, Ichiro Steals base 39 times, and has 11 CS,
While jeter takes 23 and is CS 6.
To make a statement implying that Ichiro's speed "doesn't do Sh*t" takes away all credibility you have. It makes me think that you've never seen him play. "when you can't get on base"?? I don't beleive we are watching the same guy here. Sure, Jeter has a higher OBP but just look at Ichiros AVG numbers.
I love Derek Jeter, but would I rather have Ichiro Lead off and Jeter in the 2 spot? In a heartbeat, and anyone who says otherwise is
Jeter has a better CS% as in if Jeter attempts to steal a base he's more likely to steal it than Ichiro. I have seen Ichiro play, he's fun to watch but the reality is that speed isn't useful when you aren't on base. For a leadoff hitter(or any hitter for that matter) OBP is far more important than AVG.
and anyone who says otherwise is
Is what? Say it.
yanksphan
11-03-05, 11:12 AM
No, that's 190 SB in his career with 56 CS. Jeter's is 215 SB in his career with 57 CS. That means Jeter steals bases at a better clip.
I understand that, but you opened your post with "Speed doesn't do sh*t when you can't get on base" - in response to a post regarding their respective OBP having just a 10 point differential (nominal).
I took that as you implying that Ichiro doesn't get on base.
EDIT: as did someone else.
I took that as you implying that Ichiro doesn't get on base.
Oh no not at all. He does get on base but Jeter is just better at it than he is. And Ichiro's OBP is dependant on speed which will likely decline faster than DJ's eye.
SoCal Pinstriper
11-03-05, 11:40 AM
Wow, 24hrs away from the computer, and we have a hot stove subforum, and an Ichiro discussion. What a great time of year!
I came to this discussion without much of an opinion on Ichiro as a potential Yankee because I never thought it was even remotely possible that he'd leave the Northwest. I've waded through all 5 pages of this thread and come to the following opinions.
It is important to keep in mind that the Yankees are both a baseball team and a business.
1.) I cannot see a scenario in which the acquisition of Ichiro via trade really makes baseball sense for the Yankees. The cost, in terms of prospects, would be greater than the return in production.
2.) I can, however, see a scenario in which the acquisition of Ichiro would make business sense for the Yankees. In all the time I've been reading this board, I've seen many references to the overseas revenue driven into the yankees coffers by Matsui, but I've never seen any hard numbers quantifying that (Please post 'em if you've got 'em).
Even with Matsui, who I understand is the bigger star in Japan, we've been sharing that market's attention with Ichiro (who was first and, I'm sure has plenty of his own fans). If by acquiring Ichiro, we could grab the lions share of the attention and $$$$ from the Japanese market, it might be a situation that more than made up for any adverse effect on payroll. Without hard numbers it is impossible to evaluate accurately.
If that were the case, I could see the Yankees coughing up the prospects in a move that would look horrible when evaluated from a baseball standpoint, but might be impossible to pass up from a business point of view.
Captain Yankee
11-03-05, 11:47 AM
Is there any substance to this rumor?
yanksphan
11-03-05, 11:53 AM
And Ichiro's OBP is dependant on speed
I don't think this is necessarily true either.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=400085&statType=1
This is a link to his hitting chart. Click on "singles" and you'll see he had 83 at Safeco this year. Only 20 of them (hard to count, but about that) were of the infield variety (requiring exceptional speed).
Changing the year to 2004 (his monster year) doesn't change the results much either. 105 singles (at Safeco) with 22 being of the infield variety.
I think the "speed game" is overblown a bit....
surge511
11-03-05, 12:08 PM
Ichiro is a great fielder and leadoff hitter, there is no way around it. I do not like him that much, but if he is available, the Yankees should at least call Seattle and consider a deal.
ShaneTravis
11-03-05, 12:08 PM
Is there any substance to this rumor?
Any substance to the Hilton sisters?
surge511
11-03-05, 12:16 PM
Is there any substance to this rumor?
Not really. I think there was one article that suggested that Ichiro was getting tired of losing in Seattle. However, any rumors of him getting traded exist only on this forum and some Seattle forums. I highly doubt it would ever happen.
Speed doesn't do sh*t when you can't get on base, plus Jeter's a better base stealer:
Jeter: 57 CS out of 215
Ichiro: 56 CS out of 190
So not only does Ichiro makes more outs than Jeter at the plate, he also makes more outs on the bases.
That isn't a fair comparison since his base stealing stats in Japan aren't included. Also there is NO WAY that you're telling me that Jeter disrupts the pitchers as much as Ichiro does. Ichiro adds a dimension to the running game that Jeter just doesn't. Errors from the opposing team are much more likely when Ichiro is running, Ichiro beats out a good number of ground outs, etc..
THEBOSS84
11-03-05, 01:54 PM
I wish this rumor is true but Im led to believe that since we have not heard this via any major news/sports outlets,it just cant be true
Saxmania
11-03-05, 01:56 PM
Ichiro is a great fielder and leadoff hitter
But he'd be a better number 2 hitter. Consider:
Ichiro strikes out less than Jeter, so he'd advance Jeter from 1st more often than Jeter would advance Ichiro
Ichiro has better bat control than Jeter, so he'd execute a hit-and-run or a sacrifice better
Jeter gets on base more often than Ichiro, so the Yankees would start more innings 1 on and none out, rather than 1 out and no-one on
The reason we're calling Ichiro a lead-off hitter is that that's where he hits now. But if you want the Yankees to score more runs, and by extension win more games, you would want a hypothetical Jeter-Ichiro lineup to start with Jeter.
Those who are arguing otherwise really need to provide some more information than 'But Ichiro's a lead-off hitter!' and 'Jeter's a number 2 hitter!' Explain why, please, and why that's the way it should be done to help the Yankees win ballgames, before I do something bad to my computer monitor.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Saxmania
11-03-05, 01:57 PM
That isn't a fair comparison since his base stealing stats in Japan aren't included. Also there is NO WAY that you're telling me that Jeter disrupts the pitchers as much as Ichiro does. Ichiro adds a dimension to the running game that Jeter just doesn't. Errors from the opposing team are much more likely when Ichiro is running, Ichiro beats out a good number of ground outs, etc..
Stolen base attempts apparently distract the hitters about as much as the fielders and pitchers. Hitters hit worse with a base-stealer on first than with a non-base stealer on first. I'll look for the information if you're interested.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Hitman23
11-03-05, 01:58 PM
I'd worry about the communication in the OF with Matsui.:roflmao:
never fails.
I'd be for getting him if the price tag wasn't too high.
Crusadecat
11-03-05, 02:01 PM
Ichiro is a special player for sure. I'd love to see him as a Yankee. I guess i'd need to see what kind of players the M's would be looking for in return. He would fill a few holes bringing speed, good fielding, etc. One of the few players out there that is worth dealing our elite prospects for in my opinion.
THEBOSS84
11-03-05, 02:01 PM
But he'd be a better number 2 hitter. Consider:
Ichiro strikes out less than Jeter, so he'd advance Jeter from 1st more often than Jeter would advance Ichiro
Ichiro has better bat control than Jeter, so he'd execute a hit-and-run or a sacrifice better
Jeter gets on base more often than Ichiro, so the Yankees would start more innings 1 on and none out, rather than 1 out and no-one on
The reason we're calling Ichiro a lead-off hitter is that that's where he hits now. But if you want the Yankees to score more runs, and by extension win more games, you would want a hypothetical Jeter-Ichiro lineup to start with Jeter.
Those who are arguing otherwise really need to provide some more information than 'But Ichiro's a lead-off hitter!' and 'Jeter's a number 2 hitter!' Explain why, please, and why that's the way it should be done to help the Yankees win ballgames, before I do something bad to my computer monitor.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Great post
You made some excellent points that have actually changed my thought process of the potential batting order with Ichiro on the team
NYYRocket
11-03-05, 02:59 PM
This is where we shop Sheff, Chacon and Wang
Crusadecat
11-03-05, 03:01 PM
I'd love to see Ichiro in the 2 slot and the yanks doing some hit and run.
HouseThatRingsBuild
11-03-05, 03:04 PM
It would be great PR.
Stolen base attempts apparently distract the hitters about as much as the fielders and pitchers. Hitters hit worse with a base-stealer on first than with a non-base stealer on first. I'll look for the information if you're interested.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
You make very good points and I understand where you're coming from, however I still disagree. Either way I do think that regardless of where Ichiro would bat the bottom line is that I think he would be a great acquisition for the Yankees provided we don't get fleeced.
27IsNext
11-03-05, 03:07 PM
You make very good points and I understand where you're coming from, however I still disagree. Either way I do think that regardless of where Ichiro would bat the bottom line is that I think he would be a great acquisition for the Yankees provided we don't get fleeced.
But that's exactly the problem. We will get fleeced. We're better off just saying no.
But that's exactly the problem. We will get fleeced. We're better off just saying no.
Maybe but we just can't say 'we'll get fleeced' and never look into it.
Ichiro is definetly worth looking into. My thought however is that when it's all said and done Ichiro stays in Seattle or gets traded to a team team that gives them atleast 2 or 3 top tier prospects i.e not the Yankees.
Wang's Groundballs
11-03-05, 04:25 PM
Stolen base attempts apparently distract the hitters about as much as the fielders and pitchers. Hitters hit worse with a base-stealer on first than with a non-base stealer on first. I'll look for the information if you're interested.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Really? If you do have that info. I'd love to see that.
rightfielder21
11-03-05, 04:26 PM
This is where we shop Sheff, Chacon and Wang
Sheff I can see, but you want to tade 2/5 of our starting rotation, who are both young and very good, for a RF... That is not a smart move...
Wang's Groundballs
11-03-05, 04:26 PM
Maybe but we just can't say 'we'll get fleeced' and never look into it.
Ichiro is definetly worth looking into. My thought however is that when it's all said and done Ichiro stays in Seattle or gets traded to a team team that gives them atleast 2 or 3 top tier prospects i.e not the Yankees.
He's certainly worth that. I personally would love to have him in CF, but I can almost guarantee what I'd be willing to offer wouldn't even come close to what it would take, i.e. Pavano, Steven White or Sean Henn, and Kevin Thompson.
Wang's Groundballs
11-03-05, 04:28 PM
This is where we shop Sheff, Chacon and Wang
So you can focus solely on football come October?
Saxmania
11-03-05, 05:21 PM
Really? If you do have that info. I'd love to see that.
A quick Google reveals this:
http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2005/04/15/conventional-wisdom-vs-sabermetrics/
as a decent starting point. The relevant post is from 'mgl', an analyst who's done a lot of work on defensive metrics:
I can’t comment on BP’s research, but both myself and my partner did independent research looking at the affect of a fast runner on first on the batter. We both concluded that there is NO effect, as compared to an average or even a slow runner on first. Bascially, the only advantage to the batter is a combination of more fastballs and perhaps some distraction to the pitcher. That is completely negated however (in the data), most likely due to the batter taking some pitches to allow the runner to steal and perhaps some distraction to the batter as well. There is no “disruption” of the defense (other than the pitcher) to speak of.
That's not a blanket denial, but it is something to think about. The pitcher may still use a slide-step, but other than that the fielding team doesn't appear to get rattled easily - unless, of course, they are the 2002-5 Yankees.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
YankeePride1967
11-03-05, 05:23 PM
Why would a team give up a young star in the making for and old veteran on the decline, who proved to us that he will most likely carry a nagging injury at the end of every season at the time we need him most
Then why should WE trade one of our best players if we aren't getting that back?
Snatch Catch
11-03-05, 05:30 PM
But he'd be a better number 2 hitter. Consider:
Ichiro strikes out less than Jeter, so he'd advance Jeter from 1st more often than Jeter would advance Ichiro
Ichiro has better bat control than Jeter, so he'd execute a hit-and-run or a sacrifice better
Jeter gets on base more often than Ichiro, so the Yankees would start more innings 1 on and none out, rather than 1 out and no-one on
The reason we're calling Ichiro a lead-off hitter is that that's where he hits now. But if you want the Yankees to score more runs, and by extension win more games, you would want a hypothetical Jeter-Ichiro lineup to start with Jeter.
Those who are arguing otherwise really need to provide some more information than 'But Ichiro's a lead-off hitter!' and 'Jeter's a number 2 hitter!' Explain why, please, and why that's the way it should be done to help the Yankees win ballgames, before I do something bad to my computer monitor.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
On target as usual, Saxy boy.
YankeePride1967
11-03-05, 05:31 PM
Speed doesn't do sh*t when you can't get on base, plus Jeter's a better base stealer:
Jeter: 57 CS out of 215
Ichiro: 56 CS out of 190
So not only does Ichiro makes more outs than Jeter at the plate, he also makes more outs on the bases.
:clap: :clap: Great post. And this is what the "we need speedsters" crowd doesn't understand. SBs and taking the extra base are great, but you cannot look at those two stats (positives) and ignore the negatives (CS and getting thrown out trying to take the extra base).
YankeePride1967
11-03-05, 05:33 PM
You forgot to mention that Jeter's been playing 5 years longer than Ichiro. So while Jeter has 215 SB in 1525 games, Ichiro has 190 in 796 games.
So for an average season, Ichiro Steals base 39 times, and has 11 CS,
While jeter takes 23 and is CS 6.
To make a statement implying that Ichiro's speed "doesn't do Sh*t" takes away all credibility you have. It makes me think that you've never seen him play. "when you can't get on base"?? I don't beleive we are watching the same guy here. Sure, Jeter has a higher OBP but just look at Ichiros AVG numbers.
I love Derek Jeter, but would I rather have Ichiro Lead off and Jeter in the 2 spot? In a heartbeat, and anyone who says otherwise is
The length of time it takes the player to reach those stats isn't the issue, Jeter still has a better percentage of success.
Snatch Catch
11-03-05, 05:35 PM
The length of time it takes the player to reach those stats isn't the issue, Jeter still has a better percentage of success.
Certainly. Creating outs in a baseball game is destructive anytime it happens.
The few extra steals that Ichiro has have such little bearing on his contribution towards winning.
I have a question, why is everyone so eager to trade Wang?
Kolbenschlag
11-03-05, 06:30 PM
The length of time it takes the player to reach those stats isn't the issue, Jeter still has a better percentage of success.
I just feel that those numbers (and the way there were presented) are very decieving.
So I'll ask you this. You are an opposing team. Bottom nine, 1 out man on first. As an opposing team you'd rather have ichiro on the bases than Jeter?
Jeter is one of the best runners in the game, but he is flat out slower than ichiro. I don't care what those stats say.
I know from just watching the yankees play seattle, that when that guy is on base, you don't feel good about it.
Kolbenschlag
11-03-05, 06:32 PM
Also, let me clear this up:
--I couldn't be a bigger fan of Jeter's
--I'm against trading Wang, Cano, and Chacon, even for Ichiro
--I don't think the Yankees should give up too much for him
I just have a problem with people not giving him credit when it is most certainly due.
YankeePride1967
11-03-05, 06:35 PM
I just feel that those numbers (and the way there were presented) are very decieving.
So I'll ask you this. You are an opposing team. Bottom nine, 1 out man on first. As an opposing team you'd rather have ichiro on the bases than Jeter?
Jeter is one of the best runners in the game, but he is flat out slower than ichiro. I don't care what those stats say.
I know from just watching the yankees play seattle, that when that guy is on base, you don't feel good about it.
More stolen bases does not mean one is faster. I look at the percentage of successful steals more so than SB. Take Juan Pierre for instance. He is lightning fast, faster than both Ichiro and Jeter, but with a SB% success rate in the high 60's, despite the fact Pierre is faster, I'd much rather have Jeter or Ichiro on because they are more apt to be smarter when deciding to steal. If a guy gets on by single and gets caught stealing, then he may as well have popped out. It's not about faster/slower as much as it is about intelligence and knowing when to steal or take the extra base. While Jeter and Ichiro are not that far apart stat wise, the stats show he is more judicious in when he tries to steal.
Snatch Catch
11-03-05, 06:40 PM
I just feel that those numbers (and the way there were presented) are very decieving.
So I'll ask you this. You are an opposing team. Bottom nine, 1 out man on first. As an opposing team you'd rather have ichiro on the bases than Jeter?
That's a VERY specific situation, and hardly one that is worthy of basing the baserunning skills of a player on.
That being said, I can't say that I would choose Ichiro.
Kolbenschlag
11-03-05, 06:44 PM
More stolen bases does not mean one is faster. I look at the percentage of successful steals more so than SB. Take Juan Pierre for instance. He is lightning fast, faster than both Ichiro and Jeter, but with a SB% success rate in the high 60's, despite the fact Pierre is faster, I'd much rather have Jeter or Ichiro on because they are more apt to be smarter when deciding to steal. If a guy gets on by single and gets caught stealing, then he may as well have popped out. It's not about faster/slower as much as it is about intelligence and knowing when to steal or take the extra base. While Jeter and Ichiro are not that far apart stat wise, the stats show he is more judicious in when he tries to steal.
I do understand your point. And to a certain degree, I agree with you. Jeter is one of if not the smartest baserunner in the game. However, I hope you aren't implying that Ichiro is not.
It also can be said that Jeter takes the chance of stealing a bag a lot less than Ichiro.
Like I said earlier: Jeter has 215 SB in 1525 games
Ichiro has 190 in 796 games.
Ichiro Steals twice as much as Jeter.
And also, you didn't answer the question.. :D
Kolbenschlag
11-03-05, 06:48 PM
That's a VERY specific situation, and hardly one that is worthy of basing the baserunning skills of a player on.
That being said, I can't say that I would choose Ichiro.
It is a very specific question. And if you don't agree, I respect that. None of us are managers, players, gms, etc, so our opinions don't matter. I just wanted to raise the point using something other than other than stats. Stats show a lot, but not everything. Personally I fear Ichiro on the bases a lot more than Jeter.
YankeePride1967
11-03-05, 06:50 PM
I do understand your point. And to a certain degree, I agree with you. Jeter is one of if not the smartest baserunner in the game. However, I hope you aren't implying that Ichiro is not.
It also can be said that Jeter takes the chance of stealing a bag a lot less than Ichiro.
Like I said earlier: Jeter has 215 SB in 1525 games
Ichiro has 190 in 796 games.
Ichiro Steals twice as much as Jeter.
And also, you didn't answer the question.. :D
I don't make decisions based upon one scenario. Because they can be bent to look at a narrow area that may be higher. Sort of like if I said we're down by 3 runs with 2 outs in the 9th and two on, would you rather have Ichiro or Sheffield up? I didn't say that Jeter was by far a better base stealer than Ichiro, but the stats do show that he is a better one. Mickey Mantle didn't steal and he was faster than both of them. Just because Jeter doesn't steal as much as Ichiro doesn't mean he can't if he NEEDED to. But to steal that much with A-Rod, Giambi and Sheffield batting behind you can take you out of a lot of innings.
YankeePride1967
11-03-05, 06:52 PM
But if for that one narrow scenario, I'd take either. But for the rule of 162 games on an overall basis I'll take Jeter.
As an opposing team you'd rather have ichiro on the bases than Jeter?
I'd rather have Ichiro on base because there's a higher chance he gets thrown out than Jeter.
Kolbenschlag
11-03-05, 08:23 PM
There is also a higher chance of him stealing a base. Right along with the chance of him getting thrown out.
Also, GORocket, I have to disagree with this statement:
"But to steal that much with A-Rod, Giambi and Sheffield batting behind you can take you out of a lot of innings."
That seems to me like the Mark Bellhorn approach to hitting, let every pitch go by and youre sure to walk a lot.
You dont think a guy that can steal 40 plus bases would help the lineup? Funny, no one had a problem when soriano was doing it. Now we're talking about a guy who not only can steal a ton of bases, but it one of the best AVG. hitters ever, and just happens to be one of the top 5 defensive outfeilders in the game, with a rocket of an arm, and everyone wants to avoid him like the plague. I just dont understand it.
I wouldnt go trading away everything for him, but if the chance comes up, the Yankees should try to make a move on this.
YankeePride1967
11-03-05, 08:27 PM
There is also a higher chance of him stealing a base. Right along with the chance of him getting thrown out.
Also, GORocket, I have to disagree with this statement:
"But to steal that much with A-Rod, Giambi and Sheffield batting behind you can take you out of a lot of innings."
That seems to me like the Mark Bellhorn approach to hitting, let every pitch go by and youre sure to walk a lot.
You dont think a guy that can steal 40 plus bases would help the lineup? Funny, no one had a problem when soriano was doing it. Now we're talking about a guy who not only can steal a ton of bases, but it one of the best AVG. hitters ever, and just happens to be one of the top 5 defensive outfeilders in the game, with a rocket of an arm, and everyone wants to avoid him like the plague. I just dont understand it.
I wouldnt go trading away everything for him, but if the chance comes up, the Yankees should try to make a move on this.
How does it improve a team's scoring by getting thrown out stealing? I am not saying don't steal, I'm saying get on and steal when the opportunity presents it self. Maximize the opportunity. Give me a player that goes 20-24 in SB attempts over somoene who steals 60 of 90 every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Stealing 40 bases a year is a meaningless stat if he's also getting thrown out 20 times. You can't look at SB with out looking at CS. That's like looking at batting average by ignoring the outs and looking only at hits. I'm not saying I don't want Ichiro, but I don't want him at the cost it would be and for economic reasons I think the one player to get it done would be Matsui.
Crusadecat
11-04-05, 10:02 AM
I'd trade Wang for Ichiro too.
I'd trade Wang for Ichiro too.
Let's throw in Mo and A-rod while we're at it. I mean its Ichiro!, he's got the SPEED!!!!
SINCE77 2
11-04-05, 12:35 PM
I'd trade Wang for Ichiro too.
I wouldn't. Pavano OTOH, I would drive to the airport.
SINCE77 2
11-04-05, 01:19 PM
I think that before we look at simple SB/CS statistics of guys like Pierre and Ichiro, we need to look at the the reason why they attempt to steal so many bases. The Marlins and especially the Mariners have weak offenses and well documented issues with regard to scoring runs consistently. Many times it the bench calling for these risky steal attempts in order to scratch out a run here and there. Someone like Jeter has the luxury of choosing the most opportune time to steal considering that he has Arod, Sheff, Giambi , and Matsui behind him. I'd be conservative too. No need to take risk in such situations. Beltre and Sexson were mediocre at best so Ichiro had no choice but to constantly put himself into ideal scoring positions for his team. More steal attempts= more caught stealing. Pierre is in the same situation, although imo he is less accomplished than Ichiro. Does anyone really think that Torre would let Ichiro run rampant on the basepaths and take unneccessary risk with such a prodigious lineup hitting behind him? I don't. Also the SB/CS stat doesn't tell what the situation of the game was nor which base the runner was thrown out at. I wonder how many times Ichiro tried to steal 3B after successfully stealing 2B and was thrown out? The percentages don't answer this. Would Ichiro steal 3B after a successful steal at 2B if he were on the Yankees? Don't think so. Gotta look at the bigger picture.
I think that before we look at simple SB/CS statistics of guys like Pierre and Ichiro, we need to look at the the reason why they attempt to steal so many bases. The Marlins and especially the Mariners have weak offenses and well documented issues with regard to scoring runs consistently. Many times it the bench calling for these risky steal attempts in order to scratch out a run here and there. Someone like Jeter has the luxury of choosing the most opportune time to steal considering that he has Arod, Sheff, Giambi , and Matsui behind him. I'd be conservative too. No need to take risk in such situations. Beltre and Sexson were mediocre at best so Ichiro had no choice but to constantly put himself into ideal scoring positions for his team. More steal attempts= more caught stealing. Pierre is in the same situation, although imo he is less accomplished than Ichiro. Does anyone really think that Torre would let Ichiro run rampant on the basepaths and take unneccessary risk with such a prodigious lineup hitting behind him? I don't. Also the SB/CS stat doesn't tell what the situation of the game was nor which base the runner was thrown out at. I wonder how many times Ichiro tried to steal 3B after successfully stealing 2B and was thrown out? The percentages don't answer this. Would Ichiro steal 3B after a successful steal at 2B if he were on the Yankees? Don't think so. Gotta look at the bigger picture.
So you are saying Ichiro won't pick up big SB #'s because our power-heavy offense will not require him to attempt it alot. Therefore his big SB #'s aren't even an asset as they won't happen here, and he is no more of a stolen base threat than Jeter (who is a definite threat but not a game-changing one, for lack of a better way to put that).
I don't really know what you are advocating but your point doesn't make Ichiro's base stealing abilities any more appealing to the Yankees.
I think he's saying that on the Yankees, Ichiro could be a smarter base stealer - taking off in less risky scenarios. Sounds like a valid point... basically allowing Ichiro to complement the offense rather than try to BE the offense.
SINCE77 2
11-04-05, 02:37 PM
So you are saying Ichiro won't pick up big SB #'s because our power-heavy offense will not require him to attempt it alot. Therefore his big SB #'s aren't even an asset as they won't happen here, and he is no more of a stolen base threat than Jeter (who is a definite threat but not a game-changing one, for lack of a better way to put that).
I don't really know what you are advocating but your point doesn't make Ichiro's base stealing abilities any more appealing to the Yankees.
No. What I'm saying is that one should look at the bigger picture before putting forth SB/CS stats and claiming them to be the end all when determining the value of one of a players strengths. What I'm advocating is not to simply look at the stats on MLB.COM or ESPN but try to understand what the myriad situations in the game were. Was the team slumping at the time or in an extended losing streak? Was Ichiro reckless because of disenchantment with his team or did the bench call a lot of the steals? Also which base was the player attempting to steal when he was caught? Stealing 3B is an obviously higher risk than 2B, but maybe Ichiro or the team thought it was worth it to get the team going. Again, look at the bigger picture before determining a players worth. Ask why.
Furthermore, I sure the Yankees interest (if any) would be based on Ichiros' other attributes, which are many beside his SB totals.
SINCE77 2
11-04-05, 02:39 PM
I think he's saying that on the Yankees, Ichiro could be a smarter base stealer - taking off in less risky scenarios. Sounds like a valid point... basically allowing Ichiro to complement the offense rather than try to BE the offense.
Thank you for getting the point. The same would probably apply to Pierre as well (No, I don't want him). The Yankees are looking for cogs, not mainsprings.
I think he's saying that on the Yankees, Ichiro could be a smarter base stealer - taking off in less risky scenarios. Sounds like a valid point... basically allowing Ichiro to complement the offense rather than try to BE the offense.
That's fine, so he sounds like Jeter and A-Rod on the basepaths to me (20-35 steals and a 80%+ success rate). Basically I'm just saying people are building him up as this speed player that we don't have on the bases, and if he did just what SINCE77 said he'd be something we do have.
I realize he has other pluses, but I am not referring to them in this post.
NYYRocket
11-04-05, 03:26 PM
Sheff I can see, but you want to tade 2/5 of our starting rotation, who are both young and very good, for a RF... That is not a smart move...
Chacon was not a young phenom, he just got out of Col. With the money we have in Jaret and Pavano, they will be hard to move. We are talking Ichiro here, don't think Chacon and Wang deserve the untouchable tag
32elston
11-04-05, 03:34 PM
I understand that ichiro won't steal as many bases, but the threat of him doing so will improve the offense. If he is on base, the pitcher is going to throw more fastballs. DJ and A-Rod are agressive hitters. The pitcher will no longer be able to throw those first pitch breaking balls to those guys. You also can't affor to put one of those guys on with a walk. Ichiro on 2nd and DJ on first? Ball in the gap might just score 2.
YankeeStripes
11-04-05, 03:40 PM
i would trade just about any prospect we have, besides cano, for Ichiro. I'd even give them Hughes AND Duncan.
I still think they should sign Garciaparra as a DH
i would trade just about any prospect we have, besides cano, for Ichiro. I'd even give them Hughes AND Duncan.
I still think they should sign Garciaparra as a DH
I like Ichiro but he isn't worth the Yankees two best prospects.
Chacon was not a young phenom, he just got out of Col. With the money we have in Jaret and Pavano, they will be hard to move. We are talking Ichiro here, don't think Chacon and Wang deserve the untouchable tag
I understand that ichiro won't steal as many bases, but the threat of him doing so will improve the offense. If he is on base, the pitcher is going to throw more fastballs. DJ and A-Rod are agressive hitters. The pitcher will no longer be able to throw those first pitch breaking balls to those guys. You also can't affor to put one of those guys on with a walk. Ichiro on 2nd and DJ on first? Ball in the gap might just score 2.
i would trade just about any prospect we have, besides cano, for Ichiro. I'd even give them Hughes AND Duncan.
I still think they should sign Garciaparra as a DH
OH MY GOD.
I Love Wang
11-04-05, 04:47 PM
I like Ichiro but he isn't worth the Yankees two best prospects.
You mean you don't think its worth our two best prospects to get a corner outfielder with a 109 OPS+?
You mean you don't think its worth our two best prospects to get a corner outfielder with a 109 OPS+?
Yes, if we traded those guys our farm would be devasted. Duncan and Hughes are two of our highest ceiling prospects we've had since Jeter. I would only trade them if we were getting a young stud back in return, definitely not for a 32 year old outfielder. I think the Yankees should explore it because he's a good hitter and he could play center, but no way Duncan or Hughes should be involved in the trade.
I Love Wang
11-04-05, 04:58 PM
Yes, if we traded those guys our farm would be devasted. Duncan and Hughes are two of our highest ceiling prospects we've had since Jeter. I would only trade them if we were getting a young stud back in return, definitely not for a 32 year old outfielder. I think the Yankees should explore it because he's a good hitter and he could play center, but hands off our top prospects.
I was being facetious.
32elston
11-04-05, 05:01 PM
Ichiro is worth us trying to acquire but not at the price of 2 good prospects. If we have an infielder we can unload and maybe another prospect. Otherwise the price is too high. I'm tired of seeing guys that played for us or the sytem playing later into October than we do.
Cold Shad
11-05-05, 03:18 PM
I was under the Impression Ichiro didNt want to be on the same team as Matsui, possibly because of endorsement deals in Japan
I was under the Impression Ichiro didNt want to be on the same team as Matsui, possibly because of endorsement deals in Japan
Even if that could be overcome, I think his massive ego wouldn't be able to deal with Matsui's presence. The two couldn't be more different kinds of guys..
tatanka9
11-08-05, 08:21 AM
The Seattle interest is in Pavano! Also, why did you all spend so much time on SB #'s. Ichiro's cannon arm, quick and direct jump on the ball and ability to get on bases enough to score 100 runs for a bad team negates OPS concerns and SB's. If He can hold runners to 1 base and be on base enough to get 100+ runs, he'll make an impact.
The Seattle interest is in Pavano! Also, why did you all spend so much time on SB #'s. Ichiro's cannon arm, quick and direct jump on the ball and ability to get on bases enough to score 100 runs for a bad team negates OPS concerns and SB's. If He can hold runners to 1 base and be on base enough to get 100+ runs, he'll make an impact.
His OBP skills will decline rapidly because they depend on speed.
yanksphan
11-08-05, 09:48 AM
His OBP skills will decline rapidly because they depend on speed.
That's not true at all. He's not Juan Pierre...
Read this post... http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=2863736&postcount=187
That's not true at all. He's not Juan Pierre...
Read this post... http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=2863736&postcount=187
Ok, so what would his OBP be without those 20 infield hits?
yanksphan
11-08-05, 10:45 AM
Ok, so what would his OBP be without those 20 infield hits?
It certainly wouldn't effect it to the point where you could say that his OBP is dependent on speed.
My point is - the guy has AMAZING bat control. Even if all he did was slap the ball around the infield more than most player, I'm sure you understand how difficult that is to do against big league pitching.
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