View Full Version : The only scenario that I would POSSIBLY trade Cano...
Rafael Furcal has indicated that he could play 2B. In this scenario, if the Yankees could sign Furcal, he would essentially be the switch-hitting leadoff man, dropping Jeter down to #2. You would then be able to trade Cano for a defensive CF.
Granted, I am still against trading Robinson Cano, but this is the ONLY scenario that I could see it happening.
Here is the link to the Furcal info:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=rotowire-afaelurcalillingtola&prov=rotowire&type=lgns
Stupid Flanders
11-01-05, 12:55 PM
There is no available CF worth trading for, so the point is moot
There is no available CF worth trading for, so the point is moot
The question is whether a Crosby/Cano combo or a Hunter/Furcal combo is better should be considered. I do not want to trade Cano because he is only 22 and could potentially win MANY batting titles, but in this ONE scenario, I think it would work.
Stupid Flanders
11-01-05, 01:09 PM
A Matsui/Cano combo > Furcal/Hunter
yankeebot
11-01-05, 01:09 PM
The question is whether a Crosby/Cano combo or a Hunter/Furcal combo is better should be considered. I do not want to trade Cano because he is only 22 and could potentially win MANY batting titles, but in this ONE scenario, I think it would work.But you would need to trade Cano to get Hunter as well as to get Furcal. Cloning?
Wang's Groundballs
11-01-05, 01:10 PM
The question is whether a Crosby/Cano combo or a Hunter/Furcal combo is better should be considered.
No, the question is whether a Cano/CF who won't cost Cano + lots more cash > Furcal/CF that will cost Cano.
I know, move Jeter to CF :P
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-01-05, 01:12 PM
I'd trade Cano and Pavano for Crawford. I wonder if Nomar would play second...
Rocketman
11-01-05, 01:18 PM
But you would need to trade Cano to get Hunter as well as to get Furcal. Cloning?
Furcal is a free agent. He's also the best shortstop on the market (and likely the best position player) by far. He will command a MASSIVE salary, and it's probably not wise for the Yankees to sign him and trade for Torii Hunter when we have a cheap, terrific, young second baseman in Cano. We can deal otherwise for a centerfielder - it would cost less and could well pay more dividends in the future.
The question is whether a Crosby/Cano combo or a Hunter/Furcal combo is better should be considered.
there is no way in hell the new york yankees go into next year with bubba crosby as the starting centerfielder..
Dr. Gonzo
11-01-05, 01:18 PM
I would trade cano if the deal made sense.
I also don' think he will blossom into the stud people predict. I like him alot, but his value maybe at its highest now. For some reason he reminds me of sojo (maybe because sojo looked amazing the same as him, body shape wise)
SuperMario66
11-01-05, 01:19 PM
there is no way in hell the new york yankees go into next year with bubba crosby as the starting centerfielder..
God help us. That OF would be terrifying.
yankeebot
11-01-05, 01:20 PM
Furcal is a free agent. He's also the best shortstop on the market (and likely the best position player) by far. He will command a MASSIVE salary, and it's probably not wise for the Yankees to sign him and trade for Torii Hunter when we have a cheap, terrific, young second baseman in Cano. We can deal otherwise for a centerfielder - it would cost less and could well pay more dividends in the future.Gotcha. Thanks. And agreed.
ANSKYcm
11-01-05, 01:26 PM
I totally agree...I wouldn't want to trade Cano at all, but at least Furcal would give us a legit switch hitting leadoff hitter.
rightfielder21
11-01-05, 01:41 PM
I don't believe Cano is worth Hunter...
Saxmania
11-01-05, 01:45 PM
if the Yankees could sign Furcal, he would essentially be the switch-hitting leadoff man, dropping Jeter down to #2.
Honest question - what is the obsession with getting Derek Jeter fewer at-bats? Jeter's a better hitter than Rafael Furcal, Juan Pierre, Ichiro!, and almost anyone else leading off in MLB today. Dropping him down to the 2nd spot means:
1) He gets fewer trips to the plate, so a less productive hitter spends more time there,
2) He sacrifice bunts more often, giving away an out when the odds are in favor of him hitting away
3) He'll be forced to take strikes to allow the leadoff hitter to steal 2nd if/when he reaches first, depressing his ability to hit
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
THEBOSS84
11-01-05, 01:45 PM
What you guys arent factoring in is the fact that the Yankees are looking to cut payroll this offseason. Furcal would cost $10 mil atleast and then theoretically we would be trading Cano who is making around $400k for Hunter who is making $10 mil. That is around $20 mil atleast right there, and they still would have to build a bullpen and sign backups for C, and 1b.
The question is whether a Crosby/Cano combo or a Hunter/Furcal combo is better should be considered. I do not want to trade Cano because he is only 22 and could potentially win MANY batting titles, but in this ONE scenario, I think it would work.
Let's see. A Crosby/Cano combo will cost you about $600k, while a Hunter/Furcal combo will cost you about $22 million and Hunter will be a free agent after he plays for one year with the Yanks. Is a Hunter/Furcal combo THAT much better than a Crosby?Cano combo? I don't think so.
jcan411
11-01-05, 01:49 PM
I don't believe Cano is worth Hunter...
I'm a little worried about the second year effect on rookies. they kill rookie year and then the good ones keep going while the bad ones fall off a cliff.
Cano had a great year, but he's no where near a healthy hunter IMO.
As I have said before Hunter has hit over 20 homers almost every year he's totally healthy and plays a great CF. Only 5% of batters in the MLB hit over 20 HRs. He's a known talent...
Cano has been great, but he is not known. If money is no object then Furcal would be amazing with Hunter in CF. It might be the best time to trade Cano while his value is so high (especially on this board!!!!!).
I'd trade him if the Twins gave up their cather Joe Mauer.
If we're just fantasizing that is.
surge511
11-01-05, 01:52 PM
With the committment by Cahsman to becoming younger and cheaper, I higly doubt Cano will be traded. What they do for CF, though, is beyond me.
As for Crosby becoming the everyday CFer, I don't think so. He is not an everyday player. I know we won't know what he has until he does it, but I really don't feel he is a viable everyday option. If that is the route we take though, Konerko we may have to go get, and wait and see what Cabrera does in the minors before giving him another look.
rightfielder21
11-01-05, 01:54 PM
Let's see. A Crosby/Cano combo will cost you about $600k, while a Hunter/Furcal combo will cost you about $22 million and Hunter will be a free agent after he plays for one year with the Yanks. Is a Hunter/Furcal combo THAT much better than a Crosby?Cano combo? I don't think so.
Thank you...
YankClipper5
11-01-05, 01:55 PM
Furcal and the Mets supposedly have interest in eachother. That said, we would need to win a bidding war to get him which in itself is not worth it. Then adding in the fact that Cano wouldn need to be traded makes it almost silly. I honestly could deal with Crosby in CF next year, over an entire season I think he would bat around .250 or so which I can deal with out of the 9 hole, not to mention he has speed, albeit unrefined, still could cause a problem on the basepaths. By cutting salary and spending wisely to resign Gordon if the price is right and if not signing a second tier solid reliever and getting a pick, and signing BJ Ryan, I think we would be as, if not more competitive as this past season, not to mention retooling for the long term by allowing our farm to develop and therefore better evaluate whether to trade or hold.
rightfielder21
11-01-05, 01:56 PM
I'm a little worried about the second year effect on rookies. they kill rookie year and then the good ones keep going while the bad ones fall off a cliff.
Cano had a great year, but he's no where near a healthy hunter IMO.
As I have said before Hunter has hit over 20 homers almost every year he's totally healthy and plays a great CF. Only 5% of batters in the MLB hit over 20 HRs. He's a known talent...
Cano has been great, but he is not known. If money is no object then Furcal would be amazing with Hunter in CF. It might be the best time to trade Cano while his value is so high (especially on this board!!!!!).
Okay, I'm not... In my opinion he going to be a top flight player for years to come...
Key is "when healthy"...
The salary difference as well as age difference between the two is more than enough for me to say no thanks...
YankClipper5
11-01-05, 01:59 PM
Okay, I'm not... In my opinion he going to be a top flight player for years to come...
Key is "when healthy"...
The salary difference as well as age difference between the two is more than enough for me to say no thanks...
Not to mention Hunter is on the wrong side of 30, coming off a season ending injury, and playing an all out style in a tough position which is torture on his body, youth and cash wins here in my opinion.
jcan411
11-01-05, 02:00 PM
Okay, I'm not... In my opinion he going to be a top flight player for years to come...
Key is "when healthy"...
The salary difference as well as age difference between the two is more than enough for me to say no thanks...
All i'm saying is that Cano could be worth dirt next year. He has god tools, but his high strike outs and no walking worry me, as there is nothing to hang your hat on when you are struggling. For a young player, that pitchers have seen already a few times now, that could be a deadly combo...
Sell high - get a needed position and fill another with a FA in Furcal if he's willing. Cano is not a can't miss talent though, no matter what anyone says.
jcan411
11-01-05, 02:01 PM
Not to mention Hunter is on the wrong side of 30, coming off a season ending injury, and playing an all out style in a tough position which is torture on his body, youth and cash wins here in my opinion.
And Damon isn't - how do you fix center then????
SINCE77 2
11-01-05, 02:07 PM
All i'm saying is that Cano could be worth dirt next year. He has god tools, but his high strike outs and no walking worry me, as there is nothing to hang your hat on when you are struggling. For a young player, that pitchers have seen already a few times now, that could be a deadly combo...
Sell high - get a needed position and fill another with a FA in Furcal if he's willing. Cano is not a can't miss talent though, no matter what anyone says.
68 strikeouts in 522 at-bats could hardly be considered a high number of strikeouts. Considering that he has a short/level compact stroke the odds of that number increasing much is small.
rightfielder21
11-01-05, 02:12 PM
All i'm saying is that Cano could be worth dirt next year. He has god tools, but his high strike outs and no walking worry me, as there is nothing to hang your hat on when you are struggling. For a young player, that pitchers have seen already a few times now, that could be a deadly combo...
Sell high - get a needed position and fill another with a FA in Furcal if he's willing. Cano is not a can't miss talent though, no matter what anyone says.
And all I'm saying is I disagree with you...
As since77 pointed out the stats do not back up what you are trying to prove...
So the stats disagree with you as well...
I am not the type of fan who wants to trade off young cheap talent for older over priced players... I don't believe that is the best way to run a franchise...
Cano "may" be a bust, but I will take my chances with him (as will Cashman) no matter what anyone says... :)
Evil Empire
11-01-05, 02:16 PM
I'd trade Cano for a stud pitcher and maybe Pujols(Even though we have the log jam of 1B/DH types. I'd prolly stick him in left anyway.)
I Love Wang
11-01-05, 02:25 PM
Jeter is a better leadoff man than Furcal.
Evil Empire
11-01-05, 02:27 PM
Jeter is a better leadoff man than Furcal.
But would he be better as a number 2 hitter? (Jeter that is )
I Love Wang
11-01-05, 02:31 PM
But would he be better as a number 2 hitter? (Jeter that is )
No.
Career:
Batting 1st - .317/.390/.472
Batting 2nd - .313/.386/.465
What you guys arent factoring in is the fact that the Yankees are looking to cut payroll this offseason. Furcal would cost $10 mil atleast and then theoretically we would be trading Cano who is making around $400k for Hunter who is making $10 mil. That is around $20 mil atleast right there, and they still would have to build a bullpen and sign backups for C, and 1b.
Cutting payroll sounds nice but think about it for a minute. How can they? Their farm system is not that good, contrary to what a lot of people think on this board. I have news for you all, some 27 yr old rookie at double A is not the next Mickey Mantle. He's a 27 yr old rookie at double A, and for good reason. So the only alternatives are trade and free agents. Your trade options are limited because you have no farm system to speak of, no wants to take on your contracts without you paying most of the freight, you have a history of overpaying and you're supposedly "cutting payroll". So either you go with what didn't win last year or you add through free agency which more than likely means... more payroll. You can't expect to fix your bullpen and center field problems and resign Matsui and also cut payroll. Cashman is a decent GM but he's not a miracle worker.
27IsNext
11-01-05, 02:36 PM
One of this offseason's goals is to cut payroll. Consequently, Cano isn't going anywhere for anything less than a superstar.
One of this offseason's goals is to cut payroll. Consequently, Cano isn't going anywhere for anything less than a superstar.
And how is that cutting payroll?
I Love Wang
11-01-05, 02:38 PM
I have news for you all, some 27 yr old rookie at double A is not the next Mickey Mantle. He's a 27 yr old rookie at double A, and for good reason.
What is the purpose of posting something like this? And, furthermore, who is the person that disagreed with this?
Kulish29
11-01-05, 02:38 PM
I totally agree...I wouldn't want to trade Cano at all, but at least Furcal would give us a legit switch hitting leadoff hitter.
Jeter is not a legit leadoff hitter?
Evil Empire
11-01-05, 02:39 PM
No.
Career:
Batting 1st - .317/.390/.472
Batting 2nd - .313/.386/.465
How many At bats per spot?
What is the purpose of posting something like this? And, furthermore, who is the person that disagreed with this?
Because a lot here seem to over value the Yankees prospects and undervalue all others. Therefore the purpose is a Reality Check. The list would be to long make.
27IsNext
11-01-05, 02:40 PM
And how is that cutting payroll?
It would be a scenario where you just can't pass up the deal, even if it costs a lot. I.E. Cano for Johan Santana.
Moot point, because that will never happen. Cano isn't going anywhere.
YankClipper5
11-01-05, 02:41 PM
And Damon isn't - how do you fix center then????
I didn't mention Damon. In fact if you read a few posts back I supported leaving Crosby there to see how he performs, while saving money and prospects at the same time. I don't think the CF market is favorable in the slightest and I would rather suffer than pay high when in a season or two the market will be flooded with the likes of Vernon Wells, Andruw Jones for top tier and Matos on the lower end, and Hunter as a stop gap if all it takes is cash. Not to mention Melky may still show he can develop in to a decent CF. Give it time, with a few bullpen changes this team will be as, if not more, competitive than last year. I have mentioned before there is no long term reliable CF solution available so I wouldn't be opposed to trading Pavano and paying his salary either straight up or tied to a mid level prospect for the likes of Corey Patterson, Gary Matthews Jr., or Baldelli. The only potential long term solution that is available, IMO, is Milton Bradley but that would be a high stakes gamble.
I Love Wang
11-01-05, 02:41 PM
How many At bats per spot?
#1 - 1830
#2 - 3462
Kulish29
11-01-05, 02:42 PM
Their farm system is not that good, contrary to what a lot of people think on this board.
Do you know what you're talking about? Do you know about the farm system? I suspect the answer is a 'no'.
The Yankees do not have a bunch of prospects at the high levels, no. But the lower levels have tons of talent developing. To say that the farm system is not that good is incorrect. AA and AAA are barren, yes. But A+ on down there is plenty of talent.
I Love Wang
11-01-05, 02:42 PM
Because a lot here seem to over value the Yankees prospects and undervalue all others. Therefore the purpose is a Reality Check. The list would be to long make.
No, you're full of it. There is no 27 year old in AA who anyone thinks is the next Mickey Mantle. I don't think there is any player in the Yankee minor leagues who anyone has said is the nex Mickey Mantle, or Lou Gehrig, or any other great player. There are some quality prospects, however.
YankClipper5
11-01-05, 02:50 PM
Do you know what you're talking about? Do you know about the farm system? I suspect the answer is a 'no'.
The Yankees do not have a bunch of prospects at the high levels, no. But the lower levels have tons of talent developing. To say that the farm system is not that good is incorrect. AA and AAA are barren, yes. But A+ on down there is plenty of talent.
Not that I disagree at all, in fact I am in favor of keeping and developing this and sacrificing a season or 2 rather than trade, the reason that talent holds such little value is because of how much it takes to develop an A ball stud into a Major League stud, and all of the potential roadblocks in between. That said, I think if we can keep Tampa out of the fray and hang on for 2 seasons, we may have one of the better systems in the league.
Do you know what you're talking about? Do you know about the farm system? I suspect the answer is a 'no'.
Why would you suspect that? I do know what I'm talking about. Just because you have a couple of blue chippers i.e. Hughes and Duncan well so does everyone else. Look at any of the sites that objectively rank teams and their farm systems, the Yanks and in the lower half.
I Love Wang
11-01-05, 02:55 PM
Why would you suspect that? I do know what I'm talking about. Just because you have a couple of blue chippers i.e. Hughes and Duncan well so does everyone else. Look at any of the sites that objectively rank teams and their farm systems, the Yanks and in the lower half.
The Yankees being in the lower half is totally different than saying that they have nothing of value. And, as expected, you've proven that you know nil about the farm system by only citing the two most recognizable names.
fredgmuggs
11-01-05, 02:56 PM
I would think long and hard about trading Cano (or Wang, for that matter). I'm not going to suggest that Cano will be a perenial all-star... but geez we finally develop a 22 year old that shows promise and you want to trade him? Granted you have to give up something to get something... but I would prefer to see what he can do for us in the years ahead, instead watching him do it for somebody else.
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 02:57 PM
yup you beat me to starting this thread. If we can sign Furcal (GREAT leadoff hitter, GREAT D) then Robbie becomes expendable. And Im sure hed rather play for us than the Mets. But Cano would only be moved for a star like Tori Hunter
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 03:00 PM
there is no way in hell the new york yankees go into next year with bubba crosby as the starting centerfielder..
obviously
and Furcal is young, so what is the argument now going to be from the "rebuilders" faction? :dunno: Too much money? :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 03:02 PM
Honest question - what is the obsession with getting Derek Jeter fewer at-bats? Jeter's a better hitter than Rafael Furcal, Juan Pierre, Ichiro!, and almost anyone else leading off in MLB today.
Saxmania
whoa dont go crazy on me. hes not a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro. Better player, yes.
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 03:07 PM
Furcal and the Mets supposedly have interest in eachother. That said, we would need to win a bidding war to get him which in itself is not worth it. Then adding in the fact that Cano wouldn need to be traded makes it almost silly. I honestly could deal with Crosby in CF next year, over an entire season I think he would bat around .250 or so which I can deal with out of the 9 hole, not to mention he has speed, albeit unrefined, still could cause a problem on the basepaths. By cutting salary and spending wisely to resign Gordon if the price is right and if not signing a second tier solid reliever and getting a pick, and signing BJ Ryan, I think we would be as, if not more competitive as this past season, not to mention retooling for the long term by allowing our farm to develop and therefore better evaluate whether to trade or hold.
fair enough. I agree I didnt think of the bidding war we'd have to wage with the Mets (we'd win it but overpay). But no way is Crosby a starting center fielder next year Im sorry. Hunter, Bradley, Pierre or any other legit centerfielders with range and a glove is what we need. I like Bubba but he's a bench player nothing more.
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 03:11 PM
All i'm saying is that Cano could be worth dirt next year. He has god tools, but his high strike outs and no walking worry me, as there is nothing to hang your hat on when you are struggling. For a young player, that pitchers have seen already a few times now, that could be a deadly combo...
Sell high - get a needed position and fill another with a FA in Furcal if he's willing. Cano is not a can't miss talent though, no matter what anyone says.
agreed. I love him but almost all rookies fall off a cliff in their 2nd year, and his value is at the highest point now that it will probably ever be. I think he'll level off as a .290-.300 hitter with 10+ homers a year, with very good range and an above average glove and arm. A good player, not a great one as we all want him to be.
YankClipper5
11-01-05, 03:12 PM
obviously
and Furcal is young, so what is the argument now going to be from the "rebuilders" faction? :dunno: Too much money? :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
We lose a pick if we sign Furcal for starters. Secondly, yes money. He will be vastly overpaid if we go for him because of his talent he will attract a bidding war. Not only those factors but we are asking him to change positions which only gives him more leverage in negotiating. Further to that, assume Cano is traded for Hunter as that seems to be the prevailing idea, Hunter is coming off of injury and is a free agent next year who is on the wrong side of 30. Outside of Hunter I can not think of a CF who could be traded for Cano, in a somewhat BALANCED trade.
*I apologize, did not see your earlier concession on the bidding war
27IsNext
11-01-05, 03:15 PM
Their farm system is not that good, contrary to what a lot of people think on this board.
Are you familiar with a guy by the name of Steven White?
27IsNext
11-01-05, 03:17 PM
yup you beat me to starting this thread. If we can sign Furcal (GREAT leadoff hitter, GREAT D) then Robbie becomes expendable. And Im sure hed rather play for us than the Mets. But Cano would only be moved for a star like Tori Hunter
George, you didn't get the memo. Your GM is trying to cut payroll. As a result, there will be no trading of Cano for Hunter, and signing Furcal.
YankClipper5
11-01-05, 03:17 PM
fair enough. I agree I didnt think of the bidding war we'd have to wage with the Mets (we'd win it but overpay). But no way is Crosby a starting center fielder next year Im sorry. Hunter, Bradley, Pierre or any other legit centerfielders with range and a glove is what we need. I like Bubba but he's a bench player nothing more.
I only suggest Bubba because as I said, he may hit 250ish and that would be serviceable in this lineup. He would also give us flexibility to trade at the deadline if we must rather than gamble now. I would not be opposed to Bradley, but his cost would be the key, how cheap can he come with his well known problems? Pierre is not the answer and Hunter is too costly as I only see him being a stopgap. Corey Patterson is someone who interests me because I think he may come cheap but yet another gamble. Ideally I would like to see us get a serviceable stop gap (bubba, gary matthews jr) and hold out 2 seasons to see where Melky stands and if not try and make a run at Vernon Wells, or Andruw Jones, when the market on OFs cools because of the new talent.
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 03:18 PM
Cutting payroll sounds nice but think about it for a minute. How can they? Their farm system is not that good, contrary to what a lot of people think on this board. I have news for you all, some 27 yr old rookie at double A is not the next Mickey Mantle. He's a 27 yr old rookie at double A, and for good reason. So the only alternatives are trade and free agents. Your trade options are limited because you have no farm system to speak of, no wants to take on your contracts without you paying most of the freight, you have a history of overpaying and you're supposedly "cutting payroll". So either you go with what didn't win last year or you add through free agency which more than likely means... more payroll. You can't expect to fix your bullpen and center field problems and resign Matsui and also cut payroll. Cashman is a decent GM but he's not a miracle worker.
bingo
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
bravo my friend people on this board are dellusional about our "prospects". We have 3-4 years before anybody of value is even ready to contribute in the majors. Duncan aint coming for atleast 2 more years and Hughes and Clippard will take another 3 or 4. We cant cut payroll, get younger AND stay competitive (meaning Championship caliber competitive not above .500 competitive) all at once. Damn young'ns with your wild imaginations.
FURCAL + HUNTER in their prime = drastically improved defense. not a minor upgrade, drastically better. the only loser here is the payroll.
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 03:19 PM
George, you didn't get the memo. Your GM is trying to cut payroll. As a result, there will be no trading of Cano for Hunter, and signing Furcal.
yea? well I say we're raisin' ticket prices and we're expanding payroll to win.... BI-YATCH! ;)
27IsNext
11-01-05, 03:22 PM
yea? well I say we're raisin' ticket prices and we're expanding payroll to win.... BI-YATCH! ;)
You're not the real George...
rightfielder21
11-01-05, 03:23 PM
Luckily, Furcal and Hunter won't happen...
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 03:26 PM
I only suggest Bubba because as I said, he may hit 250ish and that would be serviceable in this lineup. He would also give us flexibility to trade at the deadline if we must rather than gamble now. I would not be opposed to Bradley, but his cost would be the key, how cheap can he come with his well known problems? Pierre is not the answer and Hunter is too costly as I only see him being a stopgap. Corey Patterson is someone who interests me because I think he may come cheap but yet another gamble. Ideally I would like to see us get a serviceable stop gap (bubba, gary matthews jr) and hold out 2 seasons to see where Melky stands and if not try and make a run at Vernon Wells, or Andruw Jones, when the market on OFs cools because of the new talent.
Agreed I also want Melky to get another shot. And to me, Pierre IS a stopgap. He's got another 2 years left in him to steal 40+ and play a solid center field.
Corey Patterson I would love to have but we dont have the prospects.
Milton Bradley is not a cancer, he is passionate about winning and has stated many times he's not in the bigs to make friends he's just here to win. I doubt he would cost us too much, and Sheff would take him under his wing and settle him down a bit.
Hunter is probably the hottest topic on this board and my feelings are known. He's entering the prime productivity years of his carreer right now, so in my opinion he's worth the money. As many times as people want to say he's a product of ESPN it dont matter. ESPN doesnt make him rob home runs left and right and jump through walls to make the catch. Hes the real deal, the 2nd best cefensive outfielder in baseball (behind Andruw) and .265, 20 HRs and 70 RBIs aint too shabby either. Worth the cash.
Andruw Jones and Vernon Wells, in my dreams.
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 03:30 PM
You're not the real George...
:(
thats low...
Evil Empire
11-01-05, 03:34 PM
You're not the real George...
:lol:
Saxmania
11-01-05, 03:40 PM
whoa dont go crazy on me.
After you.
hes not a better leadoff hitter than Ichiro. Better player, yes.
The job of a lead-off hitter? To get on base. Ichiro!'s OBP the last three years:
2003: .352
2004: .414
2005: .350
Derek Jeter's:
2003: .393
2004: .352
2005: .389
Career OBP:
Ichiro!: .377
Jeter: .386 (including his development phase, which in Ichiro!'s case didn't happen in MLB, artificially raising his career OBP)
Jeter remains a better lead-off hitter. And I, for the moment, remain sane.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
27IsNext
11-01-05, 03:41 PM
bingo
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
bravo my friend people on this board are dellusional about our "prospects". We have 3-4 years before anybody of value is even ready to contribute in the majors. Duncan aint coming for atleast 2 more years and Hughes and Clippard will take another 3 or 4. We cant cut payroll, get younger AND stay competitive (meaning Championship caliber competitive not above .500 competitive) all at once. Damn young'ns with your wild imaginations.
FURCAL + HUNTER in their prime = drastically improved defense. not a minor upgrade, drastically better. the only loser here is the payroll.
The problem is, he is only looking at things in a rebuilding scenario--one that people like myself find both impossible without resulting in a few down years, and altogether unnecessary. I'm sure that Cashman and co. realizes that with the majority of talent in the lower levels (as you said), that rebuilding would be quite a project, one that wouldn't suit the nature of this team.
However, the team could do quite well if it allows the older guys like Mussina, Sheffield, Posada, and Giambi, etc. while intergrating youth as they develop. They could also potentially trade some of the older guys (Sheffield being the best trading chip we have that fits this description) for a younger, faster, better defensive player, assuming we eat a huge chunk of the salary.
Also, lesser names in the system could still make an impact--Henn as a lefty out of the pen, Matt Smith as a LOOGY (although granted, he's been having a tough time as a starter), Matt DeSalvo as a 5th starter, etc. We could also potentially put a trade together like Henn + DeSalvo for a guy like Brad Wilkerson, who could be a CF stopgap until someone in the farm is ready. Finally, there are some guys down there who could contribute in the very near future, that he fails to mention. Steven White, who has the upside of a number 3 starter, J.B. Cox and Jason Schmidt as relievers, Brett Gardner as an OFer and leadoff hitter (great arm, great D). Remember, Cano and Wang weren't on anybody's radar, and look how that turned out.
Crusadecat
11-01-05, 03:41 PM
I'd be interested if people would put Cano in a deal for Soriano.
nickzcool51
11-01-05, 03:42 PM
Here's a question...could Cano play Left Field? I don't know if it'd be worth it but the fact is that we have the DH spot open if he can't and we could use Cano at DH. We'd have to bring back Bubba and maybe sign someone like Reggie Sanders as well in case it didn't work out. The benefit is a younger, better defensive outfield with Cano, Mats, and Sanders. The negetive is that Cano is a young 2B who can hit and those don't come around too often. But Furcal is definitely better than any of the outfielders avaliable.
nickzcool51
11-01-05, 03:44 PM
I'd be interested if people would put Cano in a deal for Soriano.
No...That would make no sense at all.
Hunter is probably the hottest topic on this board and my feelings are known. He's entering the prime productivity years of his carreer right now, so in my opinion he's worth the money. As many times as people want to say he's a product of ESPN it dont matter. ESPN doesnt make him rob home runs left and right and jump through walls to make the catch. Hes the real deal, the 2nd best cefensive outfielder in baseball (behind Andruw) and .265, 20 HRs and 70 RBIs aint too shabby either. Worth the cash.
1. Hunter is 30, past the prime for most baseball players (which doesn't mean he's bad, just likely past his prime, not entering it). Do you have any evidence to support that he is different, especially given that he does not really possess a lot of strong old player skills to fall back on? His offensive peak appears to have been around 26, which is entirely normal.
2. There's more to playing centerfield than being able to jump over the wall. When people say that he is a product of ESPN, they are merely pointing out that while highlight reel plays are great, there are a hell of a lot more non-highlight plays that a centerfielder has to make every day. Hunter does not make those plays as well as his reputation suggests. Is he an above average centerfielder? Yes. Is he a top centerfielder? No.
3. He's coming off of a serious leg injury which will inevitably effect his play. You might be healthy after that kind of injury, but you are never the same. How much it effects him is an open question that won't be answered overnight or, frankly, even in ST. As such, you are taking a big risk that he won't be greatly effected. The Yankees have the resources where they should not be taking those kinds of risks.
27IsNext
11-01-05, 03:45 PM
I'd be interested if people would put Cano in a deal for Soriano.
That would be quite possibly the worst deal ever.
Saxmania
11-01-05, 03:46 PM
Here's a question...could Cano play Left Field?
Shoving a young player who can apparently hit around the field is not a good way to develop them in an MLB organisation. Cano was voted the best defensive 2B in the league at one of the minor-league levels. Throwing money at Rafael Furcal to move him from his optimum position, and then move Cano from his is no way to run a railroad. It is a good way to turn defensive assets into liabilities.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Crusadecat
11-01-05, 03:47 PM
R.E. Bradley"Sheff would take him under his wing and settle him" - Thats like saying Brown could take John Rocker under his wing and settle him. We don't need two guys spouting thier mouth off in the press every time they have thier feelings hurt.
27IsNext
11-01-05, 03:51 PM
1. Hunter is 30, past the prime for most baseball players (which doesn't mean he's bad, just likely past his prime, not entering it). Do you have any evidence to support that he is different, especially given that he does not really possess a lot of strong old player skills to fall back on? His offensive peak appears to have been around 26, which is entirely normal.
2. There's more to playing centerfield than being able to jump over the wall. When people say that he is a product of ESPN, they are merely pointing out that while highlight reel plays are great, there are a hell of a lot more non-highlight plays that a centerfielder has to make every day. Hunter does not make those plays as well as his reputation suggests. Is he an above average centerfielder? Yes. Is he a top centerfielder? No.
3. He's coming off of a serious leg injury which will inevitably effect his play. You might be healthy after that kind of injury, but you are never the same. How much it effects him is an open question that won't be answered overnight or, frankly, even in ST. As such, you are taking a big risk that he won't be greatly effected. The Yankees have the resources where they should not be taking those kinds of risks.
Not to mention, his career OPS is mediocre. His career-.321 OBP can stay in Minnesota.
nickzcool51
11-01-05, 03:54 PM
Yea i guess it was a bit wild...I don't want Sheff playing RF next year if he's still around. I'd like us to aquire 2 new outfielders. Someone like Aaron Rowand or Carl Crawford then sign a Reggie Sanders type to play RF.
Evil Empire
11-01-05, 03:54 PM
Shoving a young player who can apparently hit around the field is not a good way to develop them in an MLB organisation. Cano was voted the best defensive 2B in the league at one of the minor-league levels. Throwing money at Rafael Furcal to move him from his optimum position, and then move Cano from his is no way to run a railroad. It is a good way to turn defensive assets into liabilities.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
I agree.
That's displacing two players, not good at all. We should stop doing that.
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 04:11 PM
1. Hunter is 30, past the prime for most baseball players (which doesn't mean he's bad, just likely past his prime, not entering it). Do you have any evidence to support that he is different, especially given that he does not really possess a lot of strong old player skills to fall back on? His offensive peak appears to have been around 26, which is entirely normal.
2. There's more to playing centerfield than being able to jump over the wall. When people say that he is a product of ESPN, they are merely pointing out that while highlight reel plays are great, there are a hell of a lot more non-highlight plays that a centerfielder has to make every day. Hunter does not make those plays as well as his reputation suggests. Is he an above average centerfielder? Yes. Is he a top centerfielder? No.
3. He's coming off of a serious leg injury which will inevitably effect his play. You might be healthy after that kind of injury, but you are never the same. How much it effects him is an open question that won't be answered overnight or, frankly, even in ST. As such, you are taking a big risk that he won't be greatly effected. The Yankees have the resources where they should not be taking those kinds of risks.
we are debating apples and oranges. Im not saying he's gonna bust 30 hrs and 100 rbis for the next 4 years. Maybe he doesnt hit anything more than his standard 20 hrs and 70 rbis a season, and has a .330 ob%. Thats really not important, because our lineup is alreadyCHOCK FULL'O HITTERS.
Hes coming here to catch the ball. To chase down would be doubles and make them outs instead. I dont care how many times you tell me he's overrated defensively, I aint gonna believe it. Every game I see him play he makes you say WOW! I dont remember him butchering any flyballs, or taking a wrong first step. Hes elite with the glove. He's much better than above average, hes GREAT defensively. Tell me 5 guys who are better defensive centerfielders. NAME 5. I want to know what 5 guys push him the from elite ranks to just above average. I'll even help you out. Andruw Jones, Vernon Wells, Jim Edmonds. Who else compares to his pure range and glove work? Of those 3, Id still say only Jones is better defensively. So go look up the UZR and the ABC and come back and let me know what 5 guys are better centerfielders than Torri Hunter. This oughta be good.
The only valid point against him is the ankle injury, but Im willing to bet he'll be fine. Time will tell, but I think he's in pinstripes next year and I love it.
Rafael Furcal has indicated that he could play 2B. In this scenario, if the Yankees could sign Furcal, he would essentially be the switch-hitting leadoff man, dropping Jeter down to #2. You would then be able to trade Cano for a defensive CF.
Granted, I am still against trading Robinson Cano, but this is the ONLY scenario that I could see it happening.
Here is the link to the Furcal info:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=rotowire-afaelurcalillingtola&prov=rotowire&type=lgns
Like who, Willie Mays?
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 04:15 PM
wow, its damn trendy to trade Sheff again.
Chairman-of-TheBoard
11-01-05, 04:19 PM
I still say hold on to Cano. There is just far too mauch potential there to trade, and I don't like the CF market enough to wager that talent.
YankClipper5
11-01-05, 04:26 PM
we are debating apples and oranges. Im not saying he's gonna bust 30 hrs and 100 rbis for the next 4 years. Maybe he doesnt hit anything more than his standard 20 hrs and 70 rbis a season, and has a .330 ob%. Thats really not important, because our lineup is alreadyCHOCK FULL'O HITTERS.
Hes coming here to catch the ball. To chase down would be doubles and make them outs instead. I dont care how many times you tell me he's overrated defensively, I aint gonna believe it. Every game I see him play he makes you say WOW! I dont remember him butchering any flyballs, or taking a wrong first step. Hes elite with the glove. He's much better than above average, hes GREAT defensively. Tell me 5 guys who are better defensive centerfielders. NAME 5. I want to know what 5 guys push him the from elite ranks to just above average. I'll even help you out. Andruw Jones, Vernon Wells, Jim Edmonds. Who else compares to his pure range and glove work? Of those 3, Id still say only Jones is better defensively. So go look up the UZR and the ABC and come back and let me know what 5 guys are better centerfielders than Torri Hunter. This oughta be good.
The only valid point against him is the ankle injury, but Im willing to bet he'll be fine. Time will tell, but I think he's in pinstripes next year and I love it.
You said it completely when you said he is coming here to catch the ball! Why trade away so much for someone who can catch the ball? I say get someone with serviceable defense, we don't even need sterling defense at this point, anything would be an improvement over last year. Hunter in too old to sacrifice a cheap talent like Cano. He is coming off injury which hurts a CFs premier asset, his legs, and he is hitting the decline years.
George Steinbrenner
11-01-05, 04:33 PM
You said it completely when you said he is coming here to catch the ball! Why trade away so much for someone who can catch the ball? I say get someone with serviceable defense, we don't even need sterling defense at this point, anything would be an improvement over last year. Hunter in too old to sacrifice a cheap talent like Cano. He is coming off injury which hurts a CFs premier asset, his legs, and he is hitting the decline years.
well we disagree. You want premier offense and sevicable defense in center, I want premier defense and servicable offense. Hunter is not old. He has 5 good years left and Furcal is a young replacement. Bottom line Im not trading Cano for Hunter unless we've already signed Furcal, so calm down. Duncan or Melky for Hunter, yes. Hughes for Hunter, no. This thread is kinda far fetched anyway but Furcal and Hunter are a better combo for the next 5 years than Cano and a stopgap.
El Moose
11-01-05, 04:38 PM
Trading Cano for Torii Hunter - as has been occasionally suggested - is sheer lunacy. I can't believe anyone is taking that idea seriously.
All Hunter has proven is that he's an average hitter (750ish career OPS) at an above average price. He's also injured and is a huge health risk going forward.
Do we then sign another $10mln man to play 2nd?
This trade just does not work because of the economics.
27IsNext
11-01-05, 05:06 PM
we are debating apples and oranges. Im not saying he's gonna bust 30 hrs and 100 rbis for the next 4 years. Maybe he doesnt hit anything more than his standard 20 hrs and 70 rbis a season, and has a .330 ob%. Thats really not important, because our lineup is alreadyCHOCK FULL'O HITTERS.
I'd debate your other points, but I've done so countless times in other threads. However, I should point out to you that the lack of a good hitter who got on base a good amount of the time was a GLARING weakness for this team past the five-hole.
Is there any possible way that we could fool the Twins into taking Womack?
JeffWeaverFan
11-01-05, 06:04 PM
Furcal is better than Cano, but we would have to give Furcal a ton of money to get him to sign and Cano is very cheap. So, instead of using that money in other places, we are using it to have a slight upgrade over the improving Cano. If Jeter was willing to move to CF, then yes, I would love to trade Furcal but there isn't any point of bringing that up as it won't happen. Just sign Jacque Jones to a 2 year deal and we've got a guy that can play CF well enough.
JeffWeaverFan
11-01-05, 06:06 PM
This trade just does not work because of the economics.
And people are seeming to forget this when they say that Cano is expendable in the right situation. He is extremely important for him because instead of spending $8 to $10 million a year on a second baseman like Furcal, we are getting one for much cheaper and therefore can use that money in other places.
Wow there are some really funny posts in this thread.
YankeePride1967
11-01-05, 06:10 PM
And people are seeming to forget this when they say that Cano is expendable in the right situation. He is extremely important for him because instead of spending $8 to $10 million a year on a second baseman like Furcal, we are getting one for much cheaper and therefore can use that money in other places.
And as we saw last off season, our budget is not endless.
JeffWeaverFan
11-01-05, 06:17 PM
And as we saw last off season, our budget is not endless.
Yep, and I believe that we are going to cut payroll by about $10 million this year. Even for George and the Yankees, there is always a budget. Which, subsequently, is the reason why we need to not trade away Cano, Wang, or any of the top prospects. If we do, the Yankee downfall will happen very shortly.
YankeePride1967
11-01-05, 06:21 PM
Yep, and I believe that we are going to cut payroll by about $10 million this year. Even for George and the Yankees, there is always a budget. Which, subsequently, is the reason why we need to not trade away Cano, Wang, or any of the top prospects. If we do, the Yankee downfall will happen very shortly.
Exactly, the more prominent roles that can be filled successfully at a low cost, the better.
Babe Rules
11-01-05, 06:23 PM
I'd trade Cano for a stud pitcher and maybe Pujols(Even though we have the log jam of 1B/DH types. I'd prolly stick him in left anyway.)
For Pujols is a no brainer IMO.
Babe Rules
11-01-05, 06:26 PM
Furcal is better than Cano.
Right now I agree. But in a couple of years I belive Cano will be much better then Furcal.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-01-05, 06:42 PM
I'd trade Cano for David Wright, move A-Rod to short and Jeter to center. Thats in a perfect world
I'd trade Cano for David Wright, move A-Rod to short and Jeter to center. Thats in a perfect world
I thought Cano was overrated?
goin for 27
11-01-05, 06:48 PM
For Pujols is a no brainer IMO.
Way to go out on a limb. ;)
Can we stop these silly rumors (http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4MDY0NjImeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2):
With general manager Brian Cashman committed to paring payroll and increasing the Yankees' youth, expect Robinson Cano and Chien-Ming Wang to be in pinstripes when the 2006 season begins.
Dealing these one-time prospects who made significant contributions during the Yankees' run to the AL East title "doesn't make any sense,'' Cashman said Monday, adding that it "wouldn't be valid to speculate'' about such a transaction.
Can we stop these silly rumors:
Ha! Good luck with that Rich.
Evil Empire
11-01-05, 06:57 PM
For Pujols is a no brainer IMO.
That was my point actually.
Kulish29
11-01-05, 07:17 PM
Why would you suspect that? I do know what I'm talking about. Just because you have a couple of blue chippers i.e. Hughes and Duncan well so does everyone else. Look at any of the sites that objectively rank teams and their farm systems, the Yanks and in the lower half.
I know more about the Yankees farm system then just the blue chippers. Do you? You can look at any of the sites and they all say the same thing, "Not a lot in the upper levels. All of the talent is in the lower levels."
The Yankees dont just have "a couple of blue chippers". Steven White, CJ Henry, Austin Jackson, Brett Gardner, Josh Schimdt, Jose Tabata, Tyler Clippard, Matt DeSalvo, Christian Garcia and the list goes on.
The prospects are developing. They just need time. Trading prospects for a CF who is not even average offensivley and is going to be a question defensivley after coming back from major surgery is extremley short sighted.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-01-05, 07:25 PM
I thought Cano was overrated?
why do you think i want to trade him????
32elston
11-01-05, 07:29 PM
Furcal isn't really all that good. His best years were his rookie year, where he didn't bat leadoff and last year a contract year. His defense improve a lot this year, but living here in Atlanta I've seen most of the games he's played and he's really scary. When he makes an error it is a throwing error and he throws so hard it is going to be more than one base. He isn't the type of guy to make the pitcher work either and his games is totally dependant on speed. Furcal pulls a hammy and he's useless. Too much money for the risk.
why do you think i want to trade him????
Yeah but teams don't want our bad players.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-01-05, 08:44 PM
Yeah but teams don't want our bad players.
if we can trade a 22 year old with a .320 OBP for a 23 year old with a 900 ops, i think that would be pretty cool.
ZYanksRule
11-01-05, 08:49 PM
Brian Cashman will NOT trade Robbie Cano.
if we can trade a 22 year old with a .320 OBP for a 23 year old with a 900 ops, i think that would be pretty cool.
Me too but that's not happening.
apolansk
11-01-05, 09:50 PM
I thought Cano was overrated?
Wright is so much better then Cano, that the Mets would assume it was a joke if we even asked.
YankClipper5
11-01-05, 09:55 PM
well we disagree. You want premier offense and sevicable defense in center, I want premier defense and servicable offense. Hunter is not old. He has 5 good years left and Furcal is a young replacement. Bottom line Im not trading Cano for Hunter unless we've already signed Furcal, so calm down. Duncan or Melky for Hunter, yes. Hughes for Hunter, no. This thread is kinda far fetched anyway but Furcal and Hunter are a better combo for the next 5 years than Cano and a stopgap.
It is not at all what I am saying, I agree all we need is someone to catch the ball, why trade Cano for him if we can get a lesser name who can get the defensive job done. The CF market will be ripe in 2 seasons, lets not gamble the future for someone who is coming here as we agree, to only catch the ball. As for Furcal, waste of money with Cano as a talent, the money is better spent on the bullpen and keeping the payroll less than it was last year. In 2 seasons we will know if Melky is for real, and if he isnt, a hot OF free agent market is upon us. If we make any deal for the OF I support either getting a cheap defensive guy or signing Jacque Jones for 3 years. I would most prefer to take my chances with Bubba, although it wont happen and I understand why, and make a trade at the deadline if need be.
I Love Wang
11-01-05, 10:01 PM
if we can trade a 22 year old with a .320 OBP for a 23 year old with a 900 ops, i think that would be pretty cool.
Why would we be able to trade Cano for Wright?
JeffWeaverFan
11-01-05, 10:13 PM
Right now I agree. But in a couple of years I belive Cano will be much better then Furcal.
You have no disagreement from me there. Robbie's power is going to increase in the coming years and hopefully so will his eye and his OBP. If his OBP goes to around .350 or better, we've got ourselves a great player.
Wright is so much better then Cano, that the Mets would assume it was a joke if we even asked.
I know.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-02-05, 08:03 AM
Why would we be able to trade Cano for Wright?
we are discussing "only sceario that I would possibly trade cano in." I think that would be a situation where i would trade Cano, but I realize the Mets brass isn't braindead
jcan411
11-02-05, 09:38 AM
You have no disagreement from me there. Robbie's power is going to increase in the coming years and hopefully so will his eye and his OBP. If his OBP goes to around .350 or better, we've got ourselves a great player.
I have no idea why his power will increase. Even the most optimistic projections have him being a todd walker type with possibly a little more power. It is so hard for players to learn OBP in the majors. Look at millar and youkilis on the sox. both were OBP and walk machines in the minors. They are good with OBP but no where near their projections and reality.
Cano is a decnet 2nb baseman. He will always be serviceable. But a superstar he's not. he had a 778 OPS as a rookie. Not bad I have to say, and a 297 average is great, but average means less and less these days.
Lets look at some other OPS
Cantu 808
luis castillo 765
counsell 726
durham 785
figgins 749
M. Giles 826
hudson 728
iguchi 780
kennedy 724
Kent 889
polanco 846
roberts 903
soriano 821
vidro 763
utley 915
walker 829 (355 OBP)
weeks 727
and finally
furcal 777 27 years old
hunter 788 30 years old
these guys are not old, and have added value for being good offensively in traditionally defensive positions. Trading cano for hunter really is not that unequal, since hunter + furcal is better than cano + random FA CF. Obviously the gold standard for 2nd basemen are soriano, roberts, utley, palanco (who is vastly underrated), kent, giles, and cantu. That pretty much leaves cano in the middle of the pack although still above average. There's also the "yankee factor" in terms of the line-up (lots of protection for any 2nb baseman we would have), and the fact that there are a lot of great one year rookies (see hinkse, berroa). It can be very hard ofr a player the second go around especially with just 16 walks for the season. Again this coud mean long dry spells. His defense is also very suspect at this point...
We need a CF and Hunter, if healthy, is one of the better ones and still has at least 3 solid years in his prime. Why would this trade be a problem for anyone? at best cano turns into a slightly more powerful furcal, and then we would also have Hunter....
JeffWeaverFan
11-02-05, 11:20 AM
jcan411, even if I were to agree with you that Cano will not improve, I would still not deal him simply because of the economics of a deal like that. As I previously mentioned, Cano (and Wang for that matter) is so important because instead of paying $8 to $10 million for a guy like Furcal to play 2B, we are not paying Cano much so we can use that money in other places. The Yankees do have a budget which is why it is so important to have at least (at the very least) a few players that are making the minimum and producing.
And, for the record, I disagree that Cano will not improve. At 22, his power should increase. Look at most every players HR production at the age of 22 and it will almost always be much lower than his average HR production. Mickey Mantle, for example, hit 27 HR's as a 22 year old. Roberto Alomar his 6. Joe Morgan hit 5. All these guys greatly increased their HR production. And, I am not comparing him to any of them, just those were the first guys that popped in my head that I decided to look up.
Saxmania
11-02-05, 11:31 AM
We need a CF and Hunter, if healthy, is one of the better ones and still has at least 3 solid years in his prime. Why would this trade be a problem for anyone? at best cano turns into a slightly more powerful furcal, and then we would also have Hunter....
What your data says to me is that Robinson Cano, in his first year in the majors, nearly out-hit established stars Torii Hunter and Rafael Furcal for less than 1/20th of their cost! Wouldn't it be smarter to leave Cano where he is (for 500k) and then spend some of the remaining $19.5m on another CF, rather than move Furcal from SS to 2B for $10m/year (estimated) for multiple years, and gamble on Hunter being healthy next year for $10m/year?
In other words:
Cano + $19.5m > Furcal + Hunter
Even more so when you remember that Cano is likely to get better, especially defensively, Furcal's never played 2nd in the majors, and Hunter's coming off a serious injury. Plus we'd be locked in to Furcal and Hunter, while we can cut Cano loose if needed. And because Cano's making so little, we can even trade him on afterwards for someone better than Hunter! Bargain!
This isn't just about saving money, it's about spending money wisely to get the most bang for your buck. Using Cano at 2nd gives us more room to get better elsewhere. Not only are Furcal and Hunter not that great, but they limit our options elsewhere.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
jcan411
11-02-05, 12:41 PM
What your data says to me is that Robinson Cano, in his first year in the majors, nearly out-hit established stars Torii Hunter and Rafael Furcal for less than 1/20th of their cost! Wouldn't it be smarter to leave Cano where he is (for 500k) and then spend some of the remaining $19.5m on another CF, rather than move Furcal from SS to 2B for $10m/year (estimated) for multiple years, and gamble on Hunter being healthy next year for $10m/year?
In other words:
Cano + $19.5m > Furcal + Hunter
Even more so when you remember that Cano is likely to get better, especially defensively, Furcal's never played 2nd in the majors, and Hunter's coming off a serious injury. Plus we'd be locked in to Furcal and Hunter, while we can cut Cano loose if needed. And because Cano's making so little, we can even trade him on afterwards for someone better than Hunter! Bargain!
This isn't just about saving money, it's about spending money wisely to get the most bang for your buck. Using Cano at 2nd gives us more room to get better elsewhere. Not only are Furcal and Hunter not that great, but they limit our options elsewhere.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
I agree in many ways, although I have to say that the money saved for the center fielder is unusable since there is such a thin crop this year in FA.
In some ways getting a stop gap this year for CF and keeping Cano will be optimal. But, we have to be prepared for games where there will be serious offensive holes for two batting positions when Cano goes into slumps. I just feel Furcal and Hunter have proven track records so that is more the way to go for next year. Its tough though
27IsNext
11-02-05, 01:13 PM
*Sigh*
CANO AND WANG ARE GOING NOWHERE. CASHMAN HAS ALREADY SAID TRADING THEM "DOESN'T MAKE MUCH SENSE."
Seriously, we know Hunter is amazing. We know he's 4570493875029483750928437 times better for this team than Cano. We know that his offense is so incredibly good, and that .321 career-OBP is just bound to go waaaaaaay up next year. We know at age 30 he's only going to get even better, and that injury will for sure not cause any problems.
WE GET IT. WE KNOW. But since Cano is untouchable, Hunter will never be in pinstripes, ever, period. Can we please move on?
rightfielder21
11-02-05, 01:22 PM
I have no idea why his power will increase.
It is so hard for players to learn OBP in the majors.
Yes because all powers hitters hit their most home runs their rookie years, and never surpass those totals...
Does anyone else see the irony in wanting to trade a 23 year old with one year experience with a .320 OBP for a 30 year old with 7 years experience with a .321 OBP...
rightfielder21
11-02-05, 01:23 PM
But since Cano is untouchable
I wouldn't say Cano is untouchable, in the right deal anyone can be moved... Hunter is not that deal though...
27IsNext
11-02-05, 01:32 PM
Cano isn't going anywhere for anything less than a superstar. Consequently, Cano isn't going anywhere.
Btw, I'm sigging that part about Cano vs. Hunter...
rightfielder21
11-02-05, 01:36 PM
Cano isn't going anywhere for anything less than a superstar. Consequently, Cano isn't going anywhere.
Btw, I'm sigging that part about Cano vs. Hunter...
Agreed...
I'm honored... :P Although I edited it... Cano recently turned 23
27IsNext
11-02-05, 01:38 PM
I'm honored... :P
I should've thought of it first.
P.S. It's "irony." ;)
rightfielder21
11-02-05, 01:42 PM
I should've thought of it first.
P.S. It's "irony." ;)
Fine... :giveup:
rightfielder21
11-02-05, 01:53 PM
We need a CF and Hunter, if healthy, is one of the better ones and still has at least 3 solid years in his prime. Why would this trade be a problem for anyone? at best cano turns into a slightly more powerful furcal, and then we would also have Hunter....
We would not be paying Cano $10 million dollars, that we would have to pay Furcal for the same, if not slightly worse production, that is the difference...
Add that to the fact that we will be paying $10 million for Hunter....
This is the type of business the Yankees need to get away from...
Iknowcool
11-02-05, 03:12 PM
Trade Cano straight up for Albert Pujols.
YankClipper5
11-02-05, 03:21 PM
Trade Cano straight up for Albert Pujols.
And then come over here and hang out with the rest of us in reality.
George Steinbrenner
11-02-05, 05:12 PM
we are discussing "only sceario that I would possibly trade cano in." I think that would be a situation where i would trade Cano, but I realize the Mets brass isn't braindead
im not so sure about that. Scott Kazmir? :D
effdamets
11-03-05, 07:15 AM
Would anyone trade Cano for Manny? The Red Sox have a hole to fill at 2nd base and the Yankees could move Matsui (likely to re-sign) to CF.
Manny has asked for a trade, no? And I'm sure the money would be worked out to where it is "fair" for both sides.
mjdlight
11-03-05, 07:46 AM
Would anyone trade Cano for Manny? The Red Sox have a hole to fill at 2nd base and the Yankees could move Matsui (likely to re-sign) to CF.
No way in a million, billion years this ever happens.
Furcal and the Mets supposedly have interest in eachother.
Although, with two short stops on the major league roster, why would the Metes want another?
goin for 27
11-03-05, 08:13 AM
im not so sure about that. Scott Kazmir? :D
That was prior Mets Management.
We're lucky to have Cano so should probably keep him for a while. The Yankees free up enough payroll this year to start an expansion team. We're going to have to stick with using the payroll flexibility to sign some FAs, and attempting to trade a bat for some gloves. I'd sooner absorb a bad contract before trading away Cano. I'm off the 'Cano for Hunter' wagon.
TheTinoMobile
11-03-05, 08:34 AM
ok the only thing that should have possibly followed this topics title was... "if an angry large woman had a gun to my head"
YankClipper5
11-03-05, 11:01 AM
Although, with two short stops on the major league roster, why would the Metes want another?
As I pointed out before, I can try and find a link if you guys want, I believe it was either MLB.com or NYDAILYNEWS.com that reported Furcal as being willing to play 2b for the Mets.
As I pointed out before, I can try and find a link if you guys want, I believe it was either MLB.com or NYDAILYNEWS.com that reported Furcal as being willing to play 2b for the Mets.
Furcal would be stupid to do that as he's a better SS than Reyes.
Captain Yankee
11-03-05, 11:49 AM
Furcal is one of the best defensive SSs in baseball. He would be REALLY stupid to switch to 2nd base for Reyes. I think he's just using the Mets for leverage.
YankClipper5
11-03-05, 11:54 AM
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051031&content_id=1263013&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051031&content_id=1263013&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym)
Some Mets personnel are aware of indications that Furcal is not opposed to playing second base and he is interested in playing with the Mets.
I will edit in the link from the Mets website stating the above, although after looking I believe the article was with the Daily News that I had referenced earlier. Minaya has a pretty hot commodity over there and he is making a push to sign talented Hispanic players. That new image is a lot of what is probably attracting them.
Anyone mention that if Furcal came to the Yanks and played 2B, they'd have two SS who would be better defensively than the two-time reigning Gold Glove winner in Jeter?
If it has been brought up- excuse me. Was too lazy to look back. :)
27IsNext
11-03-05, 02:45 PM
Anyone mention that if Furcal came to the Yanks and played 2B, they'd have two SS who would be better defensively than the two-time reigning Gold Glove winner in Jeter?
If it has been brought up- excuse me. Was too lazy to look back. :)
Yes. It's bad enough that A-Rod is playing third.
BobbyMurcerFan
11-03-05, 02:50 PM
A Matsui/Cano combo > Furcal/HunterMatsui will never be our fulltime CFer. He can't play CF EVERYDAY in the ML; he'd be dead. And even when fully rested, he doesn't have the speed to cover the larger outfields like YS's.
Yes. It's bad enough that A-Rod is playing third.
Damn, you beat me to it. ;)
Can Furcal play CF?
YankClipper5
11-03-05, 04:59 PM
I am basically opposed to trading Cano, chiefly because their is nothing available in return that is both young enough to man CF for a while or talented enough to warrant trading a young and cheap Cano. If I were to form a deal centered around Cano, it would have to be a blockbuster and would likely fail to meet the organizations goals of cutting payroll. This is probably not within the realm of possibility but what about something like:
Cano/Henn/(Posada or Sheff)/Melky/(one or two mid-level prospects, Sardinha maybe, or Aaron Small) for Vernon Wells/Hudson
I would more likely try to move JoPo as there are more decent catchers available than OF. This is offering a lot but it would need to be an overwhelming deal to pry Wells. Further to that move, I would say the payroll hit comes in because it would require signing a catcher, I would go for Ramon Hernandez with Molina as an alternative plan. This is a real whopper but something I would go for. I dont think there is an alternative CF trade involving Cano I would pull the trigger on. This move probably could/will never happen but I like it in that while losing a lot, we acquire a young top 5 CF who can man YS for years, pretty much a wash in talent with Hudson over Cano and Henn should be decent bait along with Melky who has potential. I may even be inclined to add Duncan to the mix if it landed this deal. While it does give up a lot in the farm, it is for young talent.
George Steinbrenner
11-03-05, 09:18 PM
Matsui will never be our fulltime CFer. He can't play CF EVERYDAY in the ML; he'd be dead. And even when fully rested, he doesn't have the speed to cover the larger outfields like YS's.
Exactly. Matsui has average range, good mechanics, slow speed, and an average acurate arm. Hunter has great range, good mechanics, fast acceleration, and a good accurate arm. (ankle injury is not serious) We need a stud out there.
Torri Hunter is worth Cano ONLY IF we can first sign Furcal or possibly send Pavano back (and pay some of his bill) to Florida for Luis Castillo. I want a leadoff hitter and most importantly an elite Centerfielder out there. Id even support he addition of Mike Cameron or Wilkerson (not for Cano Duncan Hughes anybody like that Sheffield? :roflmao:) Yeah right.) If we cant get a decent stop gap I'd plug Melky in Center in spring training and see if he impresses us. No Bubba, please.
George Steinbrenner
11-03-05, 09:23 PM
Furcal is better than Cano, but we would have to give Furcal a ton of money to get him to sign and Cano is very cheap. So, instead of using that money in other places, we are using it to have a slight upgrade over the improving Cano. If Jeter was willing to move to CF, then yes, I would love to trade Furcal but there isn't any point of bringing that up as it won't happen. Just sign Jacque Jones to a 2 year deal and we've got a guy that can play CF well enough.
Jacque Jones is below average defensively in center and a worse hitter than Hunter.
27IsNext
11-03-05, 11:12 PM
Jacque Jones is below average defensively in center and a worse hitter than Hunter.
Actually, they're virtually identical offensively. His RATE2 as a CFer is 108, which is 8 above average. His career FRAR is 24 (exactly average for a CFer) and his career FRAA is 13. He's fine defensively.
Saxmania
11-04-05, 01:33 AM
I want a leadoff hitter
We've got one.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
JeffWeaverFan
11-04-05, 08:04 PM
Jacque Jones is below average defensively in center and a worse hitter than Hunter.
Compared to what we have had in CF for the last few years, he's a huge upgrade and yes, he is a worse hitter than Hunter, but only by a little bit. The difference between them is not which is the better player though, it is that Jones costs only money while Hunter costs more money plus prospects, and possibly Cano.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 12:57 PM
THere's only one possible scenario in which trading Cano is a good idea which is that of getting Hunter in center. I don't care of any other possible way of getting a fair trade with him, because they are so many other ways of getting a centerfielder this offseason like signing free agents like Johnny Damon and Brian Gils, And we still have Bubba Crosby which I think if they give him the playng time he could shap up to be a great player he already is a good fielder.
THere's only one possible scenario in which trading Cano is a good idea which is that of getting Hunter in center. I don't care of any other possible way of getting a fair trade with him, because they are so many other ways of getting a centerfielder this offseason like signing free agents like Johnny Damon and Brian Gils, And we still have Bubba Crosby which I think if they give him the playng time he could shap up to be a great player he already is a good fielder.
Trading Cano for Hunter is a horrible idea.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 02:53 PM
rigth but it's more possible then any other scenario
Trading Cano for Hunter is a horrible idea.
rigth but it's more possible then any other scenario
But you said its a good idea.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 03:05 PM
as something I will not kill myself over.
But you said its a good idea.
as something I will not kill myself over.
You wouldn't be upset if the Yankees made the horrible decision of trading Cano for Hunter?
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 03:10 PM
upset yes but we will not throw another WS out the window because of.
You wouldn't be upset if the Yankees made the horrible decision of trading Cano for Hunter?
upset yes but we will not throw another WS out the window because of.
Well ofcourse not. You said it was a good idea to trade Cano for Hunter and then agreed with me when i said it would eb a horrible move. I was a little confused.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-05-05, 05:11 PM
Trading Cano for Hunter is a horrible idea.
Trading anything remotely of value for Hunter is a horrible idea...
27IsNext
11-05-05, 05:44 PM
Trading anything remotely of value for Hunter is a horrible idea...
Agreed.
Trading anything remotely of value for Hunter is a horrible idea...
Agreed.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 07:14 PM
How so he's not a bad player with a great bat. How do you see him?
Agreed.
How so he's not a bad player with a great bat. How do you see him?
He used to be a good defensive CF with an average bat. Now with him coming off an ankle injury who knows where his defense will go.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 07:20 PM
The ankle injury does'nt make him useless he is still a great fielder and you don't know until we him on the field and doing what he does so well.
He used to be a good defensive CF with an average bat. Now with him coming off an ankle injury who knows where his defense will go.
27IsNext
11-05-05, 08:26 PM
The ankle injury does'nt make him useless he is still a great fielder and you don't know until we him on the field and doing what he does so well.
He has a career-.321 OBP. His defense will only get worse as he ages. Pass.
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 08:30 PM
He is not there yet. Who you had in mind for Center?
He has a career-.321 OBP. His defense will only get worse as he ages. Pass.
AMYanks
11-05-05, 09:09 PM
Trading anything remotely of value for Hunter is a horrible idea...
So true.
27IsNext
11-05-05, 09:43 PM
He is not there yet. Who you had in mind for Center?
Brad Wilkerson, Milton Bradley, Gary Matthews Jr. if he becomes a non-tendered free agent. Heck, I'd rather have Bubba in CF than overpay for Torii Hunter.
Hunter is mediocre, and should not be anywhere near Yankee Stadium unless he's visiting as a Minnesota Twin. (Or hopefully, a Boston Red Sock, assuming they gave up something of value for him.)
DaddyYankee279
11-05-05, 09:54 PM
:-rofl-: Thats funny, but what about Ryan Church or Preston Wilson?
Brad Wilkerson, Milton Bradley, Gary Matthews Jr. if he becomes a non-tendered free agent. Heck, I'd rather have Bubba in CF than overpay for Torii Hunter.
Hunter is mediocre, and should not be anywhere near Yankee Stadium unless he's visiting as a Minnesota Twin. (Or hopefully, a Boston Red Sock, assuming they gave up something of value for him.)
longtimeyankeefan
11-05-05, 10:37 PM
The ankle injury does'nt make him useless he is still a great fielder and you don't know until we him on the field and doing what he does so well.
No one has any idea how Hunter will recover from the ankle injury.
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