Why not get Wagner and Ryan? [Archive]

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SINCE77 2

10-24-05, 01:50 PM

I for one am more than willing to give up some offense(hence my desire to have low cost players like Wilkerson and Hairston/Matos in the OF) in return for defense and an airtight bullpen. IIRC, Mo will be coming into the last year of his contract and might just decide to call it a career. Gordon wants to close (although wanting and getting are two different things). Wagner can be promised split closing time in 2006 and FT closing status in 2007. Splitting closing time would allow him to slowly adapt into his role here. BJ Ryan would replace Gordon or at worse slot Gordon into a Tanyon Stuze role should the Yankees choose to retain his services. We have a bunch of 3.5 ERA starters which when combined with a bullpen topped of by Mo and Wagner should make for many late inning yawners. Your thoughts.

Saxmania

10-24-05, 01:53 PM

shotgun_sam

10-24-05, 01:55 PM

Wagner has said that he just as well might retire, i seriously doubt he'll want to split time. And what, you're going to promise him and Ryan "future closes"? I'm sorry, but these two guys are elite relief pitchers, we can count our blessings if we can talk Ryan to play here. I think this is a bit of a pipe dream.

Panamaniac42

10-24-05, 01:56 PM

Wagner & Ryan? Not going to happen, sorry. If you want to go that route then let's just put packages together for Gagne and Lidge as well.

Wagner has been closing out games for the last 10 seasons, he'll continue to close in Philly or for the Mets, or elsewhere.

Sam18

10-24-05, 01:57 PM

a)Wagner wants to close
b)He's too old
c)would cost a lot of money

shotgun_sam

10-24-05, 01:57 PM

The only way this is happening is on your MLB 2006 video game.

Yankeeah

10-24-05, 02:03 PM

Everyone has already summed it up.

Ryan might come here because he wants to play for a winner. I haven't read anything, but same might be with Wagner. However, both of them wouldn't make sense in terms of money, draft picks and being used.

I'm all for BJ Ryan, but no on Wagner

shotgun_sam

10-24-05, 02:04 PM

Stupid Flanders

10-24-05, 02:04 PM

I think Wagner's going to Boston

THEBOSS84

10-24-05, 02:07 PM

Sam18

10-24-05, 02:10 PM

I think Wagner's going to Boston

I hope they give him a 10 year contract.

Dr. Gonzo

10-24-05, 02:21 PM

Sam18

10-24-05, 02:23 PM

I Love Wang

10-24-05, 02:40 PM

everyone is calling ryan 'elite' already. Be careful, this was his first stellar year, many relievers are streaky, and many pitchers have problems after throwing alot of innings during thsi exceptional seasons.

B.J. Ryan is elite. Over the last two seasons, he has a 2.35era with 222 strikeouts in in 157.3 innings. Why would you say things without even bothering to verify them? Certainly no one could reasonably look at his career numbers and call 2005 his first stellar year. What are you going by? Saves?

JeterRodriguezSheff

10-24-05, 02:48 PM

B.J. Ryan is elite. Over the last two seasons, he has a 2.35era with 222 strikeouts in in 157.3 innings. Why would you say things without even bothering to verify them? Certainly no one could reasonably look at his career numbers and call 2005 his first stellar year. What are you going by? Saves?

from 99-02 he was crappy, in 03 he was decent. 2005 wasnt his first good year but he isnt proven by any means imo

CaptainThurman

10-24-05, 02:48 PM

Let's see, both World Series teams have absolutely loaded bullpens, almost all home grown, and total salary of about a third of the Yankees'......that's a trend we should all want.....

Joe Pepitone

10-24-05, 02:52 PM

from 99-02 he was crappy, in 03 he was decent. 2005 wasnt his first good year but he isnt proven by any means imo
So, from age 23-26, he was so-so... in '03, he was good. In '04 and '05, he was excellent. That is a fairly normal trajectory for a pitcher. The fact that he has 2-3 years of recent strong performance indicates it isn't a fluke. Anyways, ILW was merely responding to the post that Ryan has only had one elite year. His '04 was better than his '05.

JeffWeaverFan

10-24-05, 03:23 PM

Two reasons why I wouldn't want Wagner and one reason why he wouldn't come here. Firstly, the two reasons. 1. It will take a 3 year deal at about $9 million per which is way too much for a relief pitcher. 2. I'm worried about his injury history.

One reason why he wouldn't come here. He wants to close.

Just get Ryan and a guy like Kyle Farnsworth and we should be fine. Farnsworth is fantastic for a 7th inning guy and you can't do any better than BJ Ryan as your 8th inning guy. (Of course, those two can switch up depending on if it is 3 leftys you are facing in the 7th and rightys in the 8th).

goin for 27

10-24-05, 03:51 PM

everyone is calling ryan 'elite' already. Be careful, this was his first stellar year, many relievers are streaky, and many pitchers have problems after throwing alot of innings during thsi exceptional seasons.

I consider Ryan elite.

If you worry about that, then call him "best available". That works as well.

He is a very good pitcher.

I agree with you about overuse the following year, but he was even better two seasons ago, and threw more innings than this year.

nycdoc999

10-24-05, 04:05 PM

Wagner makes little sense, for reasons already outlined. He wants to close. He can't do that here. Won't sniff a save situation. There's no way he's coming.

What we need to do is make BJ Ryan our #1 offseason priority. It will take closer money to sign him. And he should know that in 2 years when Mo retires, he's our closer. So a 3 year deal with a team option for a 4th would work. The money amount is gonna have to be at least $5m per, maybe more if there's a bidding war with the Sox and O's.

After Ryan is in the fold, we should offer Gordon arbitration, which he will likely accept b/c that's the way he gets the most money. He won't get that same money closing for Kansas City, Pittsburgh, or the other middle and lower market teams that need closers. And none of the big market teams are gonna take a 2 year flier on a guy who's pushin 40, has pitched alot of innings in the past 2 years, and has a dubious post-season record in pressure situations.

If Gordon accepts - fine. If not, he walks and we get picks and use that money to sign Farnsworth.

Keep Sturtze, Small, and Matt Smith and we have our pen for 2006:

Rivera - closer
BJ Ryan - 8th inning guy
Gordon/Farnsworth - 7th inning guy
Matt Smith - LOOGY
Sturtze - Keep it close in the event of a 5/5 game in the 5th/6th inning guy
Small - Spot starter/Long man

THe rotation would look like this:

Johnson
Pavano
Wang
Chacon
Mussina

Of course, I'm not sure what we do with Jaret Wright, but the odds are he'll probably be hurt so it won't matter. If we could dump him for a bucket of balls, even eating part of his salary, I would do cartwheels. What a terrible signing! Even we all knew he was a flash in the pan and would suck big-time for us....

:(

YankeePride1967

10-24-05, 04:31 PM

Having Wagner and Ryan would not make sense. Are we going to pay somoene $8 million to pitch the middle innings? And why would they want to come here under those conditions?

Evil Empire

10-24-05, 04:34 PM

Are either even willing to set up?

JeffWeaverFan

10-24-05, 04:41 PM

Are either even willing to set up?
BJ Ryan is.

ZYanksRule

10-24-05, 04:43 PM

Let's see, both World Series teams have absolutely loaded bullpens, almost all home grown, and total salary of about a third of the Yankees'......that's a trend we should all want.....

That's exactly my thought too... I would love to have both of them. It would completely shore up our pen, and really get us to where we need to be, I think.

Mr. Mxylsplk

10-24-05, 04:59 PM

Wagner can be promised split closing time in 2006 and FT closing status in 2007. Splitting closing time would allow him to slowly adapt into his role here.
Aside from the point already made that Wagner wouldn't come here, how could Wagner be promised this? Coming off a year when he may win the Cy Young, and will certainly finish no lower than 3rd, Mariano Rivera is suddenly going to split closing time? And be told that he's not welcome as our closer even if he wants to come back after next season? Mo's not going to be here forever, and looking ahead to the future makes sense. But pushing him aside when he's still basically the best closer in baseball doesn't make any sense. Especially when it's in favor of a guy who's all of 2 years younger and will be practically as expensive.

yanksphan

10-24-05, 05:20 PM

Let's see, both World Series teams have absolutely loaded bullpens, almost all home grown, and total salary of about a third of the Yankees'......that's a trend we should all want.....

Don't get carried away here. The White Sox have NO homegrown relief pitchers, and the Astros have just 2 - both of whom pretty much suck.

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 196pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="261"> <col style="width: 61pt;" width="81"> <col style="width: 76pt;" width="101"> <col style="width: 59pt;" width="79"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 61pt;" height="17" width="81">Name</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 76pt;" width="101">2005 Salary</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 59pt;" width="79">Drafted by</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">White Sox</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Hermanson</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="2000000">$2,000,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Pirates</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Hernandez</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="3500000">$3,500,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Yankees</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Jenks</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="316000">$316,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Angels</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Marte</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="1250000">$1,250,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Mariners</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Politte</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="1000000">$1,000,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Cardinals</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Vizcaino</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="1300000">$1,300,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Athletics</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">TOTAL:</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="9366000" x:fmla="=SUM(B3:B8)">$9,366,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Astros</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Astacio</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="316000">$316,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Phillies</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Gallo</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="345000">$345,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Astros</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Lidge</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="500000">$500,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Giants</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Qualls</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="316000">$316,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Blue Jays</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Rodriguez</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="316000">$316,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Astros</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Springer</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="550000">$550,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Yankees</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Wheeler</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="365000">$365,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Devil Rays</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">TOTAL:</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="2708000" x:fmla="=SUM(B12:B18)">$2,708,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
The salaries are ridiculous though as Mo makes 10.5 mil on his own, and Alan F'n Embree makes more than the entire Astros' BP. :lol:

BW51

10-24-05, 05:24 PM

Aside from the point already made that Wagner wouldn't come here, how could Wagner be promised this? Coming off a year when he may win the Cy Young, and will certainly finish no lower than 3rd, Mariano Rivera is suddenly going to split closing time? And be told that he's not welcome as our closer even if he wants to come back after next season? Mo's not going to be here forever, and looking ahead to the future makes sense. But pushing him aside when he's still basically the best closer in baseball doesn't make any sense. Especially when it's in favor of a guy who's all of 2 years younger and will be practically as expensive.

Agreed

come on, as long as joe's there and Mo is Mo, he aint exactly going to be splitting time as closer

and my guess is because I think Mo isn't going to hang aorund just to hang around the game, Mo is gonna be Mo until his last game pitched

27IsNext

10-24-05, 05:37 PM

It would cost too much money, and draft picks.

Go for Ryan. Say no to Wagner.

38Special

10-24-05, 05:39 PM

lets sign everyone on the free agent market and fill up our minor league teams

Babe Rules

10-24-05, 05:52 PM

ppa79

10-24-05, 05:52 PM

Don't get carried away here. The White Sox have NO homegrown relief pitchers, and the Astros have just 2 - both of whom pretty much suck.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 196pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=261 border=0 x:str=""><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 61pt" width=81><COL style="WIDTH: 76pt" width=101><COL style="WIDTH: 59pt" width=79><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="WIDTH: 61pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt" width=81 height=17>Name</TD><TD class=xl25 style="WIDTH: 76pt" width=101>2005 Salary</TD><TD class=xl24 style="WIDTH: 59pt" width=79>Drafted by</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>White Sox</TD><TD class=xl25>

</TD><TD class=xl24>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Hermanson</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="2000000">$2,000,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Pirates</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Hernandez</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="3500000">$3,500,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Yankees</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Jenks</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="316000">$316,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Angels</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Marte</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="1250000">$1,250,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Mariners</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Politte</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="1000000">$1,000,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Cardinals</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Vizcaino</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="1300000">$1,300,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Athletics</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>TOTAL:</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="9366000" x:fmla="=SUM(B3:B8)">$9,366,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD class=xl25>

</TD><TD class=xl24>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Astros</TD><TD class=xl25>

</TD><TD class=xl24>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Astacio</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="316000">$316,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Phillies</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Gallo</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="345000">$345,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Astros</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Lidge</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="500000">$500,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Giants</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Qualls</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="316000">$316,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Blue Jays</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Rodriguez</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="316000">$316,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Astros</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Springer</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="550000">$550,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Yankees</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Wheeler</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="365000">$365,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>Devil Rays</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>TOTAL:</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="2708000" x:fmla="=SUM(B12:B18)">$2,708,000.00</TD><TD class=xl24>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The salaries are ridiculous though as Mo makes 10.5 mil on his own, and Alan F'n Embree makes more than the entire Astros' BP. :lol:

Isn't Cotts homegrown?

yanksphan

10-24-05, 05:56 PM

Isn't Cotts homegrown?

Wow - missed him.

He was drafted by the A's though, and makes $330,000

ppa79

10-24-05, 05:57 PM

Wow - missed him.

He was drafted by the A's though.

Then technically he wouldn't count. I guess it depends on what your definition of home grown is.

yanksphan

10-24-05, 05:59 PM

Then technically he wouldn't count. I guess it depends on what your definition of home grown is.

according to thebaseballcube.com - he spent 2 years in OAK farm system, then half a season with CHW AA team before hitting the MLB.

http://i23.ebayimg.com/01/i/05/38/b3/70_1.JPG

Prickly Pete

10-24-05, 06:30 PM

Don't get carried away here. The White Sox have NO homegrown relief pitchers, and the Astros have just 2 - both of whom pretty much suck.
Lidge was drafted by the Giants out of high school but never signed there. He was drafted by the Astros out of college, signed with them and came up through their minor league system, so he should be considered "homegrown" as well.

Rich

10-24-05, 06:33 PM

a)Wagner wants to close
b)He's too old
c)would cost a lot of money

I agree with that.

ring403

10-24-05, 06:46 PM

1. It will take a 3 year deal at about $9 million per which is way too much for a relief pitcher.
Wagner has already passed on a deal that size from the Phillies: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/sports/baseball/mlb/philadelphia_phillies/12967224.htm
Wagner, 34, is believed to be seeking a three-year, $30 million contract with a no-trade clause. The Phillies made their latest offer Tuesday, which was believed to have approached $27 million, with two years guaranteed and an option for a third.

Kulish29

10-24-05, 06:49 PM

Because BJ Ryan and Scott Eyre would be less expensive.

Johnny O

10-24-05, 07:13 PM

a)Wagner wants to close
b)He's too old
c)would cost a lot of money

Agreed - as an addendum to point c), it's a terrible misallocation of resources. That cash could be much better spent elsewhere on a roster that has quite a few holes.

Johnny O

10-24-05, 07:26 PM

from 99-02 he was crappy, in 03 he was decent. 2005 wasnt his first good year but he isnt proven by any means imo

I agree, the list of relievers who maintain dominance (ie who are "elite") over a long period of time is very small relative to the historical reliever population. Ryan has been very good, the last two seasons but I would be careful about the size and term of the contract, as well as expectations. I do understand that you have to pay for reliability and consistency in the league, but how nice would it be to have cheap, quality internal bullpen options?

highheat2014

10-24-05, 07:41 PM

because this is Major League Baseball, not fantasy baseball. People don't just sign the yankees because we want them to.

dkman

10-24-05, 09:15 PM

Sam18

10-24-05, 09:17 PM

Agreed - as an addendum to point c), it's a terrible misallocation of resources. That cash could be much better spent elsewhere on a roster that has quite a few holes.

I agree.

Sam18

10-24-05, 09:21 PM

I agree that Wagner would be tough, but I worry about Ryan. He wasn't exactly lights out against the yankees or the Red Sox. And he lost some off his fastball at the end of this year. This is not good for a team that might have to make a stretch run and play long playoff series. Yes, his stats are great, but that was for the Orioles.

If I remember correctly, Ryan pitched two bad games against the sox this year out of 7 or 8 no? Not every relief pitcher is gonna be like Mo. BJ could help our bullpen immensly because:
a)he's damn good
b)he's young(prime years are ahead of him)
c)he's insurance if Mo retires after two years
d)he's cheaper than Wagner

utopiapkwy

10-25-05, 07:28 AM

IIRC, Mo will be coming into the last year of his contract and might just decide to call it a career.

Mo's contract has a club option for 2007, so really this isnt the last year of his contract.

Babe Rules

10-25-05, 07:50 AM

Mo's contract has a club option for 2007, so really this isnt the last year of his contract.

IIRC, it's a player's option for 2007.

surge511

10-25-05, 08:25 AM

The reasons are because they both are going to want closer's money, and Wagner wants to close. There is no point to getting both of them. Ryan is young and can become the future closer. Get Gordon or Farnsworth to complement Ryan. With that setup, the bullpen is set for a while, with JB Cox not far behind in the minors.

Born in the Bronx

10-25-05, 08:54 AM

I have a great idea. We should get Ryan, Wagner, and Lidge.

Lidge can pitch the 6th, Ryan the 7th, Wagner the 8th, and Rivera the 9th. This way, we only need five solid innings out of our starters.

apehandle

10-25-05, 08:57 AM

The only way this is happening is on your MLB 2006 video game.

I second that. And like someone else said, we should package Lidge and Gagne...how about also adding Smoltz? He was a closer but can give us a few more innings than the typical closer. That way, we can bypass our starters altogether and start the game with a closer.;)

Sam18

10-25-05, 09:01 AM

I second that. And like someone else said, we should package Lidge and Gagne...how about also adding Smoltz? He was a closer but can give us a few more innings than the typical closer. That way, we can bypass our starters altogether and start the game with a closer.;)

Gagne is injured no?

yanksphan

10-25-05, 09:57 AM

Lidge was drafted by the Giants out of high school but never signed there. He was drafted by the Astros out of college, signed with them and came up through their minor league system, so he should be considered "homegrown" as well.

I stand corrected! :)

OK, so the Astros have a $2mil bullpen with a few homegrown kids, and the White Sox have a $9mil bullpen full of mercenaries.

Who's up 2-0 right now again? ;)

Mr. Mxylsplk

10-25-05, 10:46 AM

IIRC, it's a player's option for 2007.
No, it's a team option that become guaranteed if he finishes 60 games next season, or 114 games combined next season and this season.
link (http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/03/24/red2nte.html)

I'm not sure how many games he finished this year, but with 43 saves and 11 decisions, it was probably around 55. (I'm assuming post-season doesn't count).

Edit: He appeared in 71 games, and was probably removed from very few, so it must be more than 60 games finished.

Yanksagain

10-25-05, 12:04 PM

I truly believe that scouting plays a big part in building a sucessful bullpen. The Yankees organization continues to fail when it comes to scouting other team's bullpens. They have not addressed the need for a lefty who can get outs as well as a hard throwing righthander in the 95+ range over the past few offseasons. As you can see from an earlier post that the 2 World Series teams have bullpens that came from another organization. Starters are bred from within the organization, while the bullpen is built on another teams failure to recognize (or the misuse of) the talent they have on their own team.

Babe Rules

10-25-05, 12:18 PM

No, it's a team option that become guaranteed if he finishes 60 games next season, or 114 games combined next season and this season.
link (http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/03/24/red2nte.html)

I'm not sure how many games he finished this year, but with 43 saves and 11 decisions, it was probably around 55. (I'm assuming post-season doesn't count).

Edit: He appeared in 71 games, and was probably removed from very few, so it must be more than 60 games finished.

Thanks for the very good info!

Babe Rules

10-25-05, 12:19 PM

Gagne is injured no?

He'll probably be ready for Spring Tranning.

Mr. Mxylsplk

10-25-05, 12:32 PM

As you can see from an earlier post that the 2 World Series teams have bullpens that came from another organization. Starters are bred from within the organization, while the bullpen is built on another teams failure to recognize (or the misuse of) the talent they have on their own team.
The 2 WS teams mostly have starters that came from other organizations - only 1 each, Oswalt and Buehrle, are home bred (2 for Houston if you count Wandy Rodriguez). All those championship yankee teams had 1, and over the last 10 seasons, only 3 homegrown pitchers have been regular starters for the yanks - Pettitte, Lilly for 1.5 seasons, Wang for 1.

Relievers move around a lot because, except for closers, they're inexpensive and seen as pretty replaceable. But there's really not much evidence that starters are particularly homegrown.

gold23

10-25-05, 01:10 PM

I would be surprised if either Wagner or Ryan came to the Yanks. More surprised by Wagner, as he is looking to get out of baseball in a few years. Why would you come to the Yanks? I'd want to close, and they both could close for contending teams- or teams that SHOULD contend- next season.

No way both would sign, ever. I could POSSIBLY see a guy like Ryan signing, getting paid closer money, and closing for good in a few years.

Sam18

10-25-05, 01:17 PM

He'll probably be ready for Spring Tranning.

If he was on my team I wouldn't be comfortable with him coming off an injury.

highheat2014

10-25-05, 03:22 PM

i think we should get rid of every starter and just sign the following:
lidge
cordero
hoffmon
gagne
ryan
wagner
todd jones
isringhausen
k-rod
guardado
jenks
street

because if we all want them to come to new york, they are going to, even if it is against their personal interests, they will come here, just because we want them too, i don't see why they sign contracts with anyone but the yankees if they are all going to end up here anyway

then we will just have them pitch one inning a night and we will go 162-0, just like my MVP 05 franchise

Mr. Mxylsplk

10-25-05, 03:37 PM

If he was on my team I wouldn't be comfortable with him coming off an injury.
Well sure, but injury riddled pitchers seems to be the yankee way.

rightfielder21

10-25-05, 05:20 PM

Why not?

It has nothing to do with money, age or the Yankees...

If the Yankees do sign one, the other would not sign with the Yankees...

Why would they sign up to be the third man in the chain when they could be the first else where... I can see one being set up to Rivera, but why would the third guy want to be behind Rivera and the other pitcher?

Thinking before posting goes a long way...

Rich

10-25-05, 06:17 PM

Brent

10-25-05, 06:30 PM

while we are at it lets trade Henn for Santana and trade Cabera for Bay.

YankeePride1967

10-25-05, 06:31 PM

maybe we can get Albert Pujols, D. Lee and Paul Konerko to improve our 1B situation too.

swityak11

10-25-05, 06:52 PM

maybe we can get Albert Pujols, D. Lee and Paul Konerko to improve our 1B situation too.But only if we dont have to give our blue chip prospects. I heard they were going to be non-tendered anyways.

SouthbayyankeeD

10-25-05, 07:12 PM

Don't get carried away here. The White Sox have NO homegrown relief pitchers, and the Astros have just 2 - both of whom pretty much suck.

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 196pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="261"> <col style="width: 61pt;" width="81"> <col style="width: 76pt;" width="101"> <col style="width: 59pt;" width="79"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 61pt;" height="17" width="81">Name</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 76pt;" width="101">2005 Salary</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 59pt;" width="79">Drafted by</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">White Sox</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Hermanson</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="2000000">$2,000,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Pirates</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Hernandez</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="3500000">$3,500,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Yankees</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Jenks</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="316000">$316,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Angels</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Marte</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="1250000">$1,250,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Mariners</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Politte</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="1000000">$1,000,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Cardinals</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Vizcaino</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="1300000">$1,300,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Athletics</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">TOTAL:</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="9366000" x:fmla="=SUM(B3:B8)">$9,366,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Astros</td> <td class="xl25">
</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Astacio</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="316000">$316,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Phillies</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Gallo</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="345000">$345,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Astros</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Lidge</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="500000">$500,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Giants</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Qualls</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="316000">$316,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Blue Jays</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Rodriguez</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="316000">$316,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Astros</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Springer</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="550000">$550,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Yankees</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Wheeler</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="365000">$365,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">Devil Rays</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">TOTAL:</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="2708000" x:fmla="=SUM(B12:B18)">$2,708,000.00</td> <td class="xl24">
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
The salaries are ridiculous though as Mo makes 10.5 mil on his own, and Alan F'n Embree makes more than the entire Astros' BP. :lol:

Thank you for bringing sanity to the discussion.

I think if the Yankeees want to build their bullpen, they should look from within. Stop bringing in the Gabe Whites and Buddy Grooms, who are past their prime. That point was never brought home to me more than the eighth inning of game one. Jenks (who was in the Angels farm system) and Cotts came in blew the Astros away. That's what the Yanks need..some live and young arms.

BW51

10-25-05, 07:19 PM

I have a great idea. We should get Ryan, Wagner, and Lidge.

Lidge can pitch the 6th, Ryan the 7th, Wagner the 8th, and Rivera the 9th. This way, we only need five solid innings out of our starters.

don't forget Gagne

gold23

10-26-05, 03:34 PM

Thank you for bringing sanity to the discussion.

I think if the Yankeees want to build their bullpen, they should look from within. Stop bringing in the Gabe Whites and Buddy Grooms, who are past their prime. That point was never brought home to me more than the eighth inning of game one. Jenks (who was in the Angels farm system) and Cotts came in blew the Astros away. That's what the Yanks need..some live and young arms.

If those arms existed in their system, I'd agree. Jenks has been legendary in his stuff- he's just an alcoholic who until this year was out of control. And Cotts was a high pick who was blowing people away in the minors until he got to the bigs two years ago. He had a year and a half adjustment period, and is now equal to his stuff.

The Yanks don't have many pitchers at all in the minors who have both above average stuff and results. Either or. And with those, it is much more inconsistent with results at the major league level.

jpao89

10-26-05, 03:40 PM

a) Would they want to come here? Neither would close to begin with. Other teams can and will offer them a lot of money. In your plan, Ryan would never get to be the Yankee closer.
b) We're acquiring Wagner for the tail-end of his career. Doesn't mean he can't be effective, but it's not a pleasing trend.
c) We lose draft picks galore (although the system might protect us a bit from losing all our top ones)
d) They're still pretty expensive, which limits flexibility elsewhere on the payroll.

One day, we'll be able to actually develop relievers from within again. I look forward to that day.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Or just develop any good pitching talent and put it to use where it is needed. Mo came up as a starter and didn't make it. They still found a use for him. It seems to me that the Yankees are in this "starter or reliever" mode. If a guy comes up as a starter and doesn't make it, thats it and vice-a-versa with a reliever. They need to get their best pitching talent to the majors in one form or another. If that means a minor leaguer designated as a starter pitches out of the pen, so be it.

Twenty6WS

11-04-05, 04:24 PM

Everyone is high on Wagner and Ryan, but they are going to cost too much. I don't even know why anyone is considering Wagner; he is a closer and won't cosider any other position. Ryan seems like a great catch, but he is going to be expensive and want closer money. There are some other good bullpen options on the market...

Hector Carrasco(88 IP, 2.04 ERA, 75 K) - why hasn't his name been brought up?
Scott Eyre(68.1 IP, 2.63 ERA, 65 K) - a slightly popular fellow around these parts
Kyle Farnsworth(42.2 IP, 2.32 ERA, 55 K) - almost as popular as Wagner and Ryan
Roberto Hernandez(69.2 IP, 2.58 ERA, 61 K)
Trevor Hoffman(57.2 IP, 2.97 ERA, 54 K) - another closer, since we can easily get Wagner...:P
Bob Howry(73 IP, 2.47 ERA, 48 K)
Todd Jones(73 IP, 2.10 ERA, 62 K) - again, since all closers want to set up...:P
Steve Karsay(21.2 IP, 7.06 ERA, 14 K) - haha, just kidding
Al Reyes(62.2 IP, 2.15 ERA, 67 K)
Rudy Seanez(60.1 IP, 2.69 ERA, 84 K)
Bob Wickman(62 IP, 2.47 ERA, 41 K) - let's get as many closers as possible...:P

MattUNC2003

11-04-05, 04:40 PM

Kyle Farnsworth(42.2 IP, 2.32 ERA, 55 K) - almost as popular as Wagner and Ryan

After Kyle Farnsworth's 2 HR performance in Game 4 of the NLDS, he's gonna have to do a ton of good to make me not worry about his ability to handle playoff pressure. I fear he might have a Tom Gordon complex (or do I dare say, Brad Lidge?).

I'd rather pursue Ryan and Al Reyes.

I Love Wang

11-04-05, 04:45 PM

After Kyle Farnsworth's 2 HR performance in Game 4 of the NLDS, he's gonna have to do a ton of good to make me not worry about his ability to handle playoff pressure. I fear he might have a Tom Gordon complex (or do I dare say, Brad Lidge?).

I'd rather pursue Ryan and Al Reyes.

Brad Lidge was a fantastic pitcher in the playoffs for Houston in 2004. Did he forget how to get people out in October?