View Full Version : Juan Pierre?? (Is he a FA, and should we get him? -Mod)
Does this mean he is a free agent?
Juan Pierre of
4 years/$7.5M (2002-05)
$0.4M signing bonus ($0.2M in 2002, $0.2M in 2003)
02:$0.5M, 03:$0.9M, 04:$2.3M, 05:$3.4M ($3.7M with incentives)
may earn up to an additional $5.25M in incentives
agent: Mark Pieper, SFX
ML service: 4.056
I thought someone a lot of you on this forum said he was arbitration eligable? Well maybe he is but by the looks of this he is a FA.
27IsNext
10-11-05, 09:32 PM
Not enough years in the majors IIRC.
Either way, just say NO to Pierre.
YankeePride1967
10-11-05, 09:32 PM
Gets thrown out way too much for my taste.
surge511
10-11-05, 09:33 PM
Yeah, I don't want him. He had a terrible year this year. He would just turn into the next Womack/Lofton.
Crusadecat
10-11-05, 09:34 PM
I'm not a Pierre fan eithier
Then who? Let's be realistic with answers as well.
His OBP is too dependent on his AVG, and despite his speed he is only average, at best, defensively.
27IsNext
10-11-05, 09:39 PM
His OBP is too dependent on his AVG, and despite his speed he is only average, at best, defensively.
I saw him play when I got to go to two Braves games this summer vs. Florida. Gets a very poor jump on fly balls. Just say no.
His OBP is too dependent on his AVG, and despite his speed he is only average, at best, defensively.
Would you go after Jacque Jones then?? His OBP is not that great either.
Who is going to be our CF next year??
27IsNext
10-11-05, 09:43 PM
Would you go after Jacque Jones then?? His OBP is not that great either.
Jones is better defensively, and would be fine for a stop-gap until one of the farmhands is ready. Personally, I'd see what the Mets want for Mike Cameron.
Jones is better defensively, and would be fine for a stop-gap until one of the farmhands is ready. Personally, I'd see what the Mets want for Mike Cameron.
No thanks with Cameron he strikes out way too much. I also would love to have a leadoff hitter and have Derek return to the 2 hole. Let the booing begin since I said that because I know that is a touchy subject around here.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 09:46 PM
Jaque Jones > Juan Pierre
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 09:46 PM
Pierre fell off heavily this year, and is well below-average offensively and defensively. I'd trade for an undervalued player who won't cost a tremendous amount to trade for, like Brad Wilkerson.
No thanks with Cameron he strikes out way too much. I also would love to have a leadoff hitter and have Derek return to the 2 hole. Let the booing begin since I said that because I know that is a touchy subject around here.
Actually I take that back about Derek. His OBP was in the .380 range and he had 77 walks. So then my next question is how do we get a descent 2 hole hitter that can hit to the opposite field for hits and move runners over?
27IsNext
10-11-05, 09:47 PM
No thanks with Cameron he strikes out way too much. I also would love to have a leadoff hitter and have Derek return to the 2 hole. Let the booing begin since I said that because I know that is a touchy subject around here.
Strikeouts are meaningless. It just means you don't hit into a double play. A-Rod Ks a lot, and yet his offense is a big reason we made it to the post-season. Cameron's career OBP is around .340, and he plays great defense.
EDIT: Saw your take-back. Nevermind. :)
Would you go after Jacque Jones then?? His OBP is not that great either.
If he would accept a two year contract at reasonable money.
YankeePride1967
10-11-05, 09:49 PM
Juan Pierre was benched going down the stretch at times this year.
27IsNext
10-11-05, 09:50 PM
Wow, outside of Shea stadium, Cameron has a .377 OBP and a .519 SLG. That's a .896 away OPS. He'd be perfect.
OK who would everyone like to see in CF for our beloved Yankees next year? It's slim pickens and I don't want Johnny Damon, although he is a pesky leadoff hitter.
Actually I take that back about Derek. His OBP was in the .380 range and he had 77 walks. So then my next question is how do we get a descent 2 hole hitter that can hit to the opposite field for hits and move runners over?
Brian Giles.
Epy7280
10-11-05, 09:53 PM
i wish we could get andrew jones >_<
OK who would everyone like to see in CF for our beloved Yankees next year? It's slim pickens and I don't want Johnny Damon, although he is a pesky leadoff hitter.
Matsui in CF and Giles in LF and sign Jones for RF and have Sheff DH.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 09:56 PM
Matsui in CF and Giles in LF and sign Jones for RF and have Sheff DH.
If you have Jones, he should be in CF because he's the best defensive OF out of that group. Giles can play RF.
Epy7280
10-11-05, 09:58 PM
Matsui in CF and Giles in LF and sign Jones for RF and have Sheff DH.
what about Jason Giambi when he can't play 1st?
JeffWeaverFan
10-11-05, 10:00 PM
His OBP is too dependent on his AVG, and despite his speed he is only average, at best, defensively.
His AVG. is also highly dependent on his speed, and as he gets older, that speed will decrease. Since his batting average is so dependent on that speed (I remember reading he's something like a .230 hitter without his infield hits), even the slightest loss of speed will affect his game much more than it would affect any other player. Looking at his numbers this year, he might have already lost a tiny bit of speed. Also, his basestealing is not that great because he gets caught a good amount of the time. It was actually better this year than it was last year - when it was counterproductive. Either way, thankfully, he's not a free agent so we won't sign him to a bad deal.
I think the best answer in CF is Jacque Jones. He's an average offensive player that can catch the ball and would most likely only take a 2 year deal to sign.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:00 PM
what about Jason Giambi when he can't play 1st?
He should be at first daily. He hits much better there.
If you have Jones, he should be in CF because he's the best defensive OF out of that group. Giles can play RF.
:doh: You're right. Jones in CF and Giles in RF.
JeffWeaverFan
10-11-05, 10:05 PM
If you have Jones, he should be in CF because he's the best defensive OF out of that group. Giles can play RF.
Agreed.
what about Jason Giambi when he can't play 1st?
I'm sure Jason will be able to play first for the next couple years on a regular basis. Giles should only be signed to a 2 year deal if we sign him, and then you can DH Giambi.
Epy7280
10-11-05, 10:05 PM
He should be at first daily. He hits much better there.
true but this is Jason Giambi were talking about. You know sometime during the year is going to have a back back or a knee problem or something and they will have to DH him because he can't field 1st with those problems.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:07 PM
true but this is Jason Giambi were talking about. You know sometime during the year is going to have a back back or a knee problem or something and they will have to DH him because he can't field 1st with those problems.
Then you make adjustments. Ideally, Matsui or Giles would be able to play 1st base.
JeffWeaverFan
10-11-05, 10:08 PM
true but this is Jason Giambi were talking about. You know sometime during the year is going to have a back back or a knee problem or something and they will have to DH him because he can't field 1st with those problems.
This probably won't happen, but I think a good idea would be to teach Sheff to play first. Remember, he came up as an infielder so he should be able to scoop out balls. It is at least something that can be looked at in ST if you have those 4 outfielders.
NelsonMuntz
10-11-05, 10:11 PM
Then you make adjustments. Ideally, Matsui or Giles would be able to play 1st base.
Or you kill two birds with one stone by trading for Brad Wilkerson who plays CF and 1B and plays both position very well. Sorry, I'm on a Brad Wilkerson kick right now.
yanksphan
10-11-05, 10:11 PM
I think the best answer in CF is Jacque Jones. He's an average offensive player that can catch the ball and would most likely only take a 2 year deal to sign.
I think you're underestimating what it will take to get JJ. Remember, there's a team up north who's current CF is a FA asking for 5 years.
Let the bidding begin....
bigtimebomber
10-11-05, 10:13 PM
Jones is better defensively, and would be fine for a stop-gap until one of the farmhands is ready. Personally, I'd see what the Mets want for Mike Cameron.
This is the best suggestion I've heard. Cameron, I mean. One more year left on his deal, elite centerfielder, not bad hitter. Jacque Jones is not a good player, it would be terrible to lock ourselves into him for multiple years.
Babe Rules
10-11-05, 10:14 PM
His AVG. is also highly dependent on his speed, and as he gets older, that speed will decrease. Since his batting average is so dependent on that speed (I remember reading he's something like a .230 hitter without his infield hits), even the slightest loss of speed will affect his game much more than it would affect any other player. Looking at his numbers this year, he might have already lost a tiny bit of speed. Also, his basestealing is not that great because he gets caught a good amount of the time. It was actually better this year than it was last year - when it was counterproductive. Either way, thankfully, he's not a free agent so we won't sign him to a bad deal.
I think the best answer in CF is Jacque Jones. He's an average offensive player that can catch the ball and would most likely only take a 2 year deal to sign.
Well said.
Captain Yankee
10-11-05, 10:16 PM
The three main targets for the Yankees this offseason will probably be Damon, Konerko, and BJ Ryan. All three address needs for the Yankees. Damon will take Bernie's spot in CF. Konerko will allow Giambi to move to DH full time. BJ Ryan replaces Tom Gordon as the set up man.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:17 PM
The three main targets for the Yankees this offseason will probably be Damon, Konerko, and BJ Ryan. All three address needs for the Yankees. Damon will take Bernie's spot in CF. Konerko will allow Giambi to move to DH full time. BJ Ryan replaces Tom Gordon as the set up man.
Ryan is a good idea. The other two are terrible ideas. Damon takes Bernie's spot as the CFer who can't throw anybody out, and Konerko moves Giambi to a role where he has always failed. Giambi should be at 1st. Sheffield should DH next year.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:23 PM
Jeter SS
Giles RF
Giambi 1B
A-Rod 3B
Sheffield DH
Matsui LF
Cano 2B
Posada C
Jones CF
If we can swing that lineup for next year I will be very satisfied.
Jones is a better option than Johnny Pierre.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 10:26 PM
His AVG. is also highly dependent on his speed, and as he gets older, that speed will decrease. Since his batting average is so dependent on that speed (I remember reading he's something like a .230 hitter without his infield hits), even the slightest loss of speed will affect his game much more than it would affect any other player. Looking at his numbers this year, he might have already lost a tiny bit of speed. Also, his basestealing is not that great because he gets caught a good amount of the time. It was actually better this year than it was last year - when it was counterproductive. Either way, thankfully, he's not a free agent so we won't sign him to a bad deal.
I think the best answer in CF is Jacque Jones. He's an average offensive player that can catch the ball and would most likely only take a 2 year deal to sign.
I think Pierre would be a great fit, maybe the ideal fit. He's only 28 years old, so unless we sign him to a 5 or 6 year contract I wouldn't worry too much about the speed. He's also at this point an undervalued asset -- wouldn't it be nice to acquire one of those? Yes, he had a subpar year, and his OBP this year wasn't good, but his lifetime OBP is .355. And for a guy who's "lost a tiny bit of speed" he still managed to steal 57 bases in 74 attempts -- a 77% rate which is pretty darn good. He also doesn't strike out -- only 41 k's in over 650 at bats. That puts pressure on the defense (consider Figgins) and can force the type of mistakes the Yankees made in the ALDS.
As for his defense, I haven't seen him play that frequently, but according to the scouting report on ESPN.com: "His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie."
Wouldn't that be nice -- a guy who puts his bat on the ball, puts pressure on the defense, and can cover a massive amount of ground between Matsui and Sheffield. Plus, again, he's only 28 -- for a ballplayer that's the age when you enter your prime.
I'd be thrilled if we scored Pierre. Let's just hope the Marlin's non-tender.
JeffWeaverFan
10-11-05, 10:27 PM
I think you're underestimating what it will take to get JJ. Remember, there's a team up north who's current CF is a FA asking for 5 years.
Let the bidding begin....
I wonder. Damon is asking for 5 years, but he'll get 4. Damon's numbers are also much better than JJ's and Damon has played CF for his entire career. He bats for a high average, has a good OBP, has some pop, and posts OPS's of over .800. Jones, on the other hand, did not have a good year at the plate, batting only .249. His OBP was okay at .319 (which I like because it is pretty good compared to his batting average, which I think would increase), and his OPS was only .757. He has also played RF for most of his career. I think a 2 year deal could get it done.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:28 PM
I think Pierre would be a great fit, maybe the ideal fit. He's only 28 years old, so unless we sign him to a 5 or 6 year contract I wouldn't worry too much about the speed. He's also at this point an undervalued asset -- wouldn't it be nice to acquire one of those? Yes, he had a subpar year, and his OBP this year wasn't good, but his lifetime OBP is .355. And for a guy who's "lost a tiny bit of speed" he still managed to steal 57 bases in 74 attempts -- a 77% rate which is pretty darn good. He also doesn't strike out -- only 41 k's in over 650 at bats. That puts pressure on the defense (consider Figgins) and can force the type of mistakes the Yankees made in the ALDS.
As for his defense, I haven't seen him play that frequently, but according to the scouting report on ESPN.com: "His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie."
Wouldn't that be nice -- a guy who puts his bat on the ball, puts pressure on the defense, and can cover a massive amount of ground between Matsui and Sheffield. Plus, again, he's only 28 -- for a ballplayer that's the age when you enter your prime.
I'd be thrilled if we scored Pierre. Let's just hope the Marlin's non-tender.
He's an out-machine offensively, and ESPN is wrong. He ranks very poorly in all defensive metrics. A 77% success rate is not that good. His lifetime OBP is ok, but its unlikely that he'll stay there, since he'll probably continue to slide as a hitter.
ryanthe13th
10-11-05, 10:29 PM
Brian Giles.
Why do people keep bringing this guy up? He's 2 years younger than Bernie Williams, and he is going to want a 3 year deal worth a lot.
Jeter SS
Giles RF
Giambi 1B
A-Rod 3B
Sheffield DH
Matsui LF
Cano 2B
Posada C
Jones CF
If we can swing that lineup for next year I will be very satisfied.
:drool: :drool: :drool:
Too bad its gonna look like this:
CF Damon
SS Jeter
3B A-rod
RF Sheffield
1B Giambi
LF Matsui
DH Bernie
C Posada
2B Bret Boone(Because Cano got traded to Boston for Mike Stanton) :mad:
Captain Yankee
10-11-05, 10:31 PM
Ryan is a good idea. The other two are terrible ideas. Damon takes Bernie's spot as the CFer who can't throw anybody out, and Konerko moves Giambi to a role where he has always failed. Giambi should be at 1st. Sheffield should DH next year.
I don't think Sheffield will move out of the outfield next season. I can't see him DHing full time for this team. Unless you are looking to part with Cano or Wang---we aren't going to get Tori Hunter or Juan Pierre. Both remain under contract with their prospective teams. The only free agent Center fielders available are Damon or Preston Wilson. Unless you want to re-sign Bernie....One of those two are the most likely options in CF. The Yankees will not sign a corner outfielder to push Sheffield to DH. There really isn't anyone out there that would do a better job than Sheffield in RF. You can have Brian Giles. Its about a wash in the outfield between those two. Giles isn't a gold glove outfielder. Damon fits a clear need----leadoff hitting, center fielder. Konerko is a defensive upgrade over Giambi at first base (almost anyone is a defensive upgrade over Giambi at first). Giambi needs to DH next season. With regards to Sheffield, last year is the final year of his contract---so we might as well ride him out. As of next season----Sheffield won't kill you in RF as long as you have a Center Fielder with range (Damon). True Damon has no arm----but he will at least track down fly balls that Bernie couldn't get to. And at this point in his career---Damon is an offensive upgrade over Bernie.
Why do people keep bringing this guy up? He's 2 years younger than Bernie Williams, and he is going to want a 3 year deal worth a lot.
His best skills don't depend on age that much. A three year deal at a reasonable price wouldn't be bad. His offense would be HUGE for our line up.
JeffWeaverFan
10-11-05, 10:33 PM
Why do people keep bringing this guy up? He's 2 years younger than Bernie Williams, and he is going to want a 3 year deal worth a lot.
The reason why I would want him is because his numbers, especially away from Petco this year, were just sick. He had an OBP of .463 away from home. Simply amazing. I would offer him a 2 year deal with a team option for a 3rd year. If he doesn't accept it because he can get 3 guarenteed years somewhere else, then we move in another direction.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:33 PM
:drool: :drool: :drool:
Too bad its gonna look like this:
CF Damon
SS Jeter
3B A-rod
RF Sheffield
1B Giambi
LF Matsui
DH Bernie
C Posada
2B Bret Boone(Because Cano got traded to Boston for Mike Stanton) :mad:
:eek:
Dont scare me like that.
But seriously the lineup I posted is not far-fetched, all it takes is for us to sign Jones and Giles, that could and should be done.
Another question, how would you feel about signing Aaron Boone?
He is a FA I believe and he would make a good backup at 2nd and 3rd Base.
I don't think Sheffield will move out of the outfield next season. I can't see him DHing full time for this team. Unless you are looking to part with Cano or Wang---we aren't going to get Tori Hunter or Juan Pierre. Both remain under contract with their prospective teams. The only free agent Center fielders available are Damon or Preston Wilson. Unless you want to re-sign Bernie....One of those two are the most likely options in CF. The Yankees will not sign a corner outfielder to push Sheffield to DH. There really isn't anyone out there that would do a better job than Sheffield in RF. You can have Brian Giles. Its about a wash in the outfield between those two. Giles isn't a gold glove outfielder. Damon fits a clear need----leadoff hitting, center fielder. Konerko is a defensive upgrade over Giambi at first base (almost anyone is a defensive upgrade over Giambi at first). Giambi needs to DH next season. With regards to Sheffield, last year is the final year of his contract---so we might as well ride him out. As of next season----Sheffield won't kill you in RF as long as you have a Center Fielder with range (Damon). True Damon has no arm----but he will at least track down fly balls that Bernie couldn't get to. And at this point in his career---Damon is an offensive upgrade over Bernie.
What part of Giambi sucks as a DH don't you get (not being rude just asking)? Signing Damon would be an awful mistake because of his declining defensive skills (he's gonna be near Bernie pretty soon). Giles RF, Sheff DH and Giambi 1B is the best possible scenario.
ABQyankfan
10-11-05, 10:36 PM
Recognizing I'm way outside the box here: What would sell Jeter on following DiMaggio, Mantle and Bernie in CF? Anything? Then you have some leeway in either finding a SS or 3B and having A-Rod move over.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 10:36 PM
Jones is a better option than Johnny Pierre.
Jones is 2 years older, has an even lower career OBP (.327 vs. .355) strikes out over 3x as often (21% of at bats vs. 6% of the time), and isn't even a center fielder.
Why on Earth would we want Jones instead of Pierre? The only rationale that I can think of is his .080 advantage in slugging percentage, but I'll give that up for a somewhat higher OBP, far fewer strikeouts, far more steals, and to have an actual center fielder play center field. Jones would be yet another guy failing in his effort to hit a 2 run homer with the bases empty vs. the Angels. An upgrade vs. Bernie at this point, yes. Better than Pierre? No way.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:37 PM
Recognizing I'm way outside the box here: What would sell Jeter on following DiMaggio, Mantle and Bernie in CF? Anything? Then you have some leeway in either finding a SS or 3B and having A-Rod move over.
This has been discussed to death and while I think Jeter could make a good CF its to late for A-Rod to go back to SS now, he is 3rd baseman now.
If Jeter moves to CF we have to aquire a new SS, I much rather just sign Jones and Giles and then be done.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:37 PM
I don't think Sheffield will move out of the outfield next season. I can't see him DHing full time for this team.
He is a bad outfielder.
Unless you are looking to part with Cano or Wang---we aren't going to get Tori Hunter or Juan Pierre. Both remain under contract with their prospective teams.
Juan Pierre and Torii Hunter are both overrated players I have no interest in.
The only free agent Center fielders available are Damon or Preston Wilson.
Jacque Jones.
Unless you want to re-sign Bernie....One of those two are the most likely options in CF. The Yankees will not sign a corner outfielder to push Sheffield to DH. There really isn't anyone out there that would do a better job than Sheffield in RF. You can have Brian Giles. Its about a wash in the outfield between those two. Giles isn't a gold glove outfielder.
Giles is a universe better defensively than Sheffield.
Damon fits a clear need----leadoff hitting, center fielder.
We have a leadoff hitter. Giles would be a better leadoff hitter than Damon in any event.
Konerko is a defensive upgrade over Giambi at first base (almost anyone is a defensive upgrade over Giambi at first). Giambi needs to DH next season. With regards to Sheffield, last year is the final year of his contract---so we might as well ride him out. As of next season----Sheffield won't kill you in RF as long as you have a Center Fielder with range (Damon). True Damon has no arm----but he will at least track down fly balls that Bernie couldn't get to. And at this point in his career---Damon is an offensive upgrade over Bernie.
Sheffield will hurt a lot more in RF than Giambi will at 1B. He can scoop throws, which is more important than throwing. Its first base. It isn't hard. The defensive importance of 1B is minimal. Damon doesn't have as much range as you think, and he's going to be vastly overpaid for his overrated offense.
I want Brad Wilkerson.
:eek:
Dont scare me like that.
But seriously the lineup I posted is not far-fetched, all it takes is for us to sign Jones and Giles, that could and should be done.
Another question, how would you feel about signing Aaron Boone?
He is a FA I believe and he would make a good backup at 2nd and 3rd Base.
The line up you proposed would be PERFECT. P E R F E C T. Too bad the FO doesn' think like you do my friend.
BTW Aaron Boone won't come hear to be a bench player.
Wouldn't that be nice -- a guy who puts his bat on the ball, puts pressure on the defense, and can cover a massive amount of ground between Matsui and Sheffield. Plus, again, he's only 28 -- for a ballplayer that's the age when you enter your prime.
I'd be thrilled if we scored Pierre. Let's just hope the Marlin's non-tender.
You'd make a great salesman. I'm somewhat convince; unless someone else puts a convincing stat on Jacque Jones.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:38 PM
its to late for A-Rod to go back to SS now, he is 3rd baseman now.
What does this mean? He played SS for his entire life. You think 2 years of third base is enough to make him forget how to play SS?
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 10:39 PM
A 77% success rate is not that good.
Rickey Henderson's lifetime success rate was 81%. 77% ain't bad.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:40 PM
The line up you proposed would be PERFECT. P E R F E C T. Too bad the FO doesn' think like you do my friend.
BTW Aaron Boone won't come hear to be a bench player.
Thanks man, I just hope they do because it really is not that difficult to obtain this lineup, two signings and thats it, not even that high profiled signings either.
Regarding Boone, you are probably right but lets say for the sake of the argument that he would come here to be a bench player, would you want him?
yanksphan
10-11-05, 10:41 PM
I wonder. Damon is asking for 5 years, but he'll get 4. Damon's numbers are also much better than JJ's and Damon has played CF for his entire career. He bats for a high average, has a good OBP, has some pop, and posts OPS's of over .800. Jones, on the other hand, did not have a good year at the plate, batting only .249. His OBP was okay at .319 (which I like because it is pretty good compared to his batting average, which I think would increase), and his OPS was only .757. He has also played RF for most of his career. I think a 2 year deal could get it done.
No way Damon gets 4 years from the RS. Not with the condition his body is in. I think the Sox will be much wiser with their money, especially if they somehow unload Manny.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:41 PM
What does this mean? He played SS for his entire life. You think 2 years of third base is enough to make him forget how to play SS?
No he could make the adjustment back to SS but it would prolly take half a season, its not fair to juggle him like that. He has made the transition to 3rd base and he is gonna stay there.
JeffWeaverFan
10-11-05, 10:41 PM
I think Pierre would be a great fit, maybe the ideal fit. He's only 28 years old, so unless we sign him to a 5 or 6 year contract I wouldn't worry too much about the speed. He's also at this point an undervalued asset -- wouldn't it be nice to acquire one of those? Yes, he had a subpar year, and his OBP this year wasn't good, but his lifetime OBP is .355. And for a guy who's "lost a tiny bit of speed" he still managed to steal 57 bases in 74 attempts -- a 77% rate which is pretty darn good. He also doesn't strike out -- only 41 k's in over 650 at bats. That puts pressure on the defense (consider Figgins) and can force the type of mistakes the Yankees made in the ALDS.
If he had a better OBP and wasn't so dependent on his speed, then I would agree. The fact is that players that rely completely on their speed usually die out very quickly, because speed is the first thing you lose. The fact that his numbers were down this year is something that would concern me. He did have a much better year on the basepaths this year, but the year before he only stole 45 of 69. Now, I'm not sure if he lost a bit of speed this year, just throwing that out there as to why it was a down year. I do like that he doesn't K a lot.
As for his defense, I haven't seen him play that frequently, but according to the scouting report on ESPN.com: "His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie."
I might be wrong about this, but I think I read somewhere that he has a bad first step. I do know that if you look at his defense statistically, it isn't great.
Wouldn't that be nice -- a guy who puts his bat on the ball, puts pressure on the defense, and can cover a massive amount of ground between Matsui and Sheffield. Plus, again, he's only 28 -- for a ballplayer that's the age when you enter your prime.
I'd be thrilled if we scored Pierre. Let's just hope the Marlin's non-tender.
The key about his age is that for a ballplayer that relies so much on speed, while not for power at all, is that he isn't entering his prime anymore. He's exiting it IMO. The other thing is the contract that it would take to sign him. At least 4 years and I just think that he will start his decline.
Either way, the Marlins aren't going to non-tender him. That's for sure. This will be a conversation we can continue next year if we don't already have a CFer. It will be good to see how he responds to his 2005 down year.
JeffWeaverFan
10-11-05, 10:42 PM
No way Damon gets 4 years from the RS. Not with the condition his body is in. I think the Sox will be much wiser with their money, especially if they somehow unload Manny.
I think he will end up getting 4 years from the RS unless the RS trade Manny for a CFer (I've heard Beltran rumors). Either way, I think someone will offer Damon 4 years.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:43 PM
Rickey Henderson's lifetime success rate was 81%. 77% ain't bad.
Rickey Henderson isn't playing anymore. In the 1980's, when the average slugging percentage was somewhere in the .380 range, the ability to steal second base was extremely valuable. Now, when more and more players have a lot of extra-base power, making an out at second base is more costly. The break-even point of SB success has gone from about 2/3 to 3/4 or 4/5. And, just to clarify, Rickey Henderson was an on-base machine. Juan Pierre isn't close to being that. He's a bad fielder and a lousy hitter. And he's only going to get worse.
Thanks man, I just hope they do because it really is not that difficult to obtain this lineup, two signings and thats it, not even that high profiled signings either.
Regarding Boone, you are probably right but lets say for the sake of the argument that he would come here to be a bench player, would you want him?
I have no problem with Boone if he was a backup and backup only. And he also has to be cheap, preferebly below 2 mill per.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 10:44 PM
I think he will end up getting 4 years from the RS unless the RS trade Manny for a CFer (I've heard Beltran rumors). Either way, I think someone will offer Damon 4 years.
There's always a greater fool out there, no doubt. But I can't see why anyone in their right mind would give Damon 4 years at what he'll be looking for (say, $10 or $11mm per). Big mistake -- I hope we're not the one who ends up making it.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:45 PM
I have no problem with Boone if he was a backup and backup only. And he also has to be cheap, preferebly below 2 mill per.
:) Yay :)
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 10:47 PM
Rickey Henderson isn't playing anymore. In the 1980's, when the average slugging percentage was somewhere in the .380 range, the ability to steal second base was extremely valuable. Now, when more and more players have a lot of extra-base power, making an out at second base is more costly. The break-even point of SB success has gone from about 2/3 to 3/4 or 4/5. And, just to clarify, Rickey Henderson was an on-base machine. Juan Pierre isn't close to being that. He's a bad fielder and a lousy hitter. And he's only going to get worse.
We both just got finished watching a playoff series where a bunch of OPS machines (i.e., the New York Yankees) did diddlysquat vs. the Angels pitching. I totally agree that in most cases I'd rather have the higher OPS. But we've got plenty of power. We need someone who can change things up a bit, IMHO.
BTW, I'm in no way comparing Pierre to Rickey Henderson as a total package, just as a base stealer.
I'm willing to be convinced that Pierre isn't the right answer. But I don't see how Jones is possibly a better alternative.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:49 PM
We both just got finished watching a playoff series where a bunch of OPS machines (i.e., the New York Yankees) did diddlysquat vs. the Angels pitching. I totally agree that in most cases I'd rather have the higher OPS. But we've got plenty of power. We need someone who can change things up a bit, IMHO.
BTW, I'm in no way comparing Pierre to Rickey Henderson as a total package, just as a base stealer.
I'm willing to be convinced that Pierre isn't the right answer. But I don't see how Jones is possibly a better alternative.
Pierre will only change things up by getting out. He doesn't get on base, so his speed is of little value.
Jones is a better option because he'll cost less in terms of prospects and money, and can hit a little bit, unlike Pierre.
We both just got finished watching a playoff series where a bunch of OPS machines (i.e., the New York Yankees) did diddlysquat vs. the Angels pitching. I totally agree that in most cases I'd rather have the higher OPS. But we've got plenty of power. We need someone who can change things up a bit, IMHO.
BTW, I'm in no way comparing Pierre to Rickey Henderson as a total package, just as a base stealer.
I'm willing to be convinced that Pierre isn't the right answer. But I don't see how Jones is possibly a better alternative.
Jones is better because he'll come alot cheaper and less years will be involved.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:50 PM
Pierre will only change things up by getting out. He doesn't get on base, so his speed is of little value.
Jones is a better option because he'll cost less in terms of prospects and money, and can hit a little bit, unlike Pierre.
Yup, we would be better of getting the cheaper Jones and then throwing the money we make by choosing JJ instead of JP at BJ.
We both just got finished watching a playoff series where a bunch of OPS machines (i.e., the New York Yankees) did diddlysquat vs. the Angels pitching. I totally agree that in most cases I'd rather have the higher OPS. But we've got plenty of power. We need someone who can change things up a bit, IMHO.
BTW, I'm in no way comparing Pierre to Rickey Henderson as a total package, just as a base stealer.
I'm willing to be convinced that Pierre isn't the right answer. But I don't see how Jones is possibly a better alternative.
Career stats:
Henderson: .279 .401 .419
Pierre: .305 .355 .375
Leadoff hitter need to get on base to steal bases. Henderson got on base .046 more times. That is an immense differerence.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 10:54 PM
Pierre will only change things up by getting out. He doesn't get on base, so his speed is of little value.
Jones is a better option because he'll cost less in terms of prospects and money, and can hit a little bit, unlike Pierre.
You like a player like Jones, but want to save a little money? We've already got him. His name is Matt Lawton. :eek: In fact, stacked up against one another, Lawton looks pretty darn good although he is a couple years older.
Matt Lawton
Seasonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
8.17 162 580 92 155 33 2 17 77 83 75 20 8 .267 .368 .418 .786
Jacque Jones
Seasonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
6.02 162 580 82 162 31 2 22 79 38 122 11 7 .279 .327 .455 .782
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:55 PM
Lawton is probably a better hitter. But he can't play CF, and Jones can.
ICEBERG18
10-11-05, 10:55 PM
You like a player like Jones, but want to save a little money? We've already got him. His name is Matt Lawton. :eek: In fact, stacked up against one another, Lawton looks pretty darn good although he is a couple years older.
Matt Lawton
Seasonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
8.17 162 580 92 155 33 2 17 77 83 75 20 8 .267 .368 .418 .786
Jacque Jones
Seasonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
6.02 162 580 82 162 31 2 22 79 38 122 11 7 .279 .327 .455 .782
The outfielder to get is Giles.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:56 PM
Derek Jeter: OBP, 386
Brian Giles: OBP, 413
Jason Giambi: OBP, 413
Imagine having that kind of OBP before A-Rod, Sheff, Matsui and Cano?
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:56 PM
The outfielder to get is Giles.
Giles and Jones.
You like a player like Jones, but want to save a little money? We've already got him. His name is Matt Lawton. :eek: In fact, stacked up against one another, Lawton looks pretty darn good although he is a couple years older.
Matt Lawton
Seasonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
8.17 162 580 92 155 33 2 17 77 83 75 20 8 .267 .368 .418 .786
Jacque Jones
Seasonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
6.02 162 580 82 162 31 2 22 79 38 122 11 7 .279 .327 .455 .782
Defense matters:
UZR 2000-2003
Jones +11
Lawton -6
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 10:57 PM
The outfielder to get is Giles.
I'd like to get Giles to play RF and Wilkerson to play CF. But I would take Jones if Wilkerson proves difficult to obtain.
The outfielder to get is Giles.
I want Jones and Giles so Sheff can DH much more often.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 10:59 PM
Lawton and Bubba would make for a good outfield backup duo, but neither should start.
Derek Jeter: OBP, 386
Brian Giles: OBP, 413
Jason Giambi: OBP, 413
Imagine having that kind of OBP before A-Rod, Sheff, Matsui and Cano?
Please mail your post to George ASAP!!!
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 11:00 PM
I want Jones and Giles so Sheff can DH much more often.
Sheff should be a permanent DH.
Like I posted before.
Jeter
Giles
Giambi
A-Rod
Sheff
Matsui
Cano
Posada
Jones
Would be an ideal lineup.
ICEBERG18
10-11-05, 11:03 PM
Giles and Jones.
As long as we get Giles, i have no problem with getting Jones and DH'ing Sheff.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 11:04 PM
As long as we get Giles, i have no problem with getting Jones and DH'ing Sheff.
That would be the plan:)
As long as we get Giles, i have no problem with getting Jones and DH'ing Sheff.
I don't think the Yankee FO even knows that Giles is available.
ICEBERG18
10-11-05, 11:06 PM
Sheff should be a permanent DH.
Like I posted before.
Jeter
Giles
Giambi
A-Rod
Sheff
Matsui
Cano
Posada
Jones
Would be an ideal lineup.
Jeter
Giles
A-rod
Giambi
Sheff
Matsui
That would be my ideal top 6.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:08 PM
Defense matters:
UZR 2000-2003
Jones +11
Lawton -6
Where do you get those stats? Can you find the numbers for Pierre, Damon, and Preston Wilson?
NYDCYankee
10-11-05, 11:10 PM
Matsui in CF and Giles in LF and sign Jones for RF and have Sheff DH.
so you want to sign 2 guys past their prime? no thanks.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:13 PM
so you want to sign 2 guys past their prime? no thanks.
You're right, we should just sign 25 year old stars entering their primes.
Where do you get those stats? Can you find the numbers for Pierre, Damon, and Preston Wilson?
They are a little old.Pierre is already declining defensively, but here you go:
http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html
NYDCYankee
10-11-05, 11:17 PM
Or you kill two birds with one stone by trading for Brad Wilkerson who plays CF and 1B and plays both position very well. Sorry, I'm on a Brad Wilkerson kick right now.
Wilkerson had a very down year this year:
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2001 Mon 47 117 11 24 7 2 1 5 17 41 2 1 .205 .304 .325 .629
2002 Mon 153 507 92 135 27 8 20 59 81 161 7 8 .266 .370 .469 .839
2003 Mon 146 504 78 135 34 4 19 77 89 155 13 10 .268 .380 .464 .844
2004 Mon 160 572 112 146 39 2 32 67 106 152 13 6 .255 .374 .498 .872
2005 Was 148 565 76 140 42 7 11 57 84 147 8 10 .248 .351 .405 .756
Now I know it great to buy low on a player but in this current steroid era when I see a decline like this it makes me nervous about the player.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 11:17 PM
Jeter
Giles
A-rod
Giambi
Sheff
Matsui
That would be my ideal top 6.
OBP.
Giambi, 413
A-Rod, 385
Thats why I want A-Rod after Jason.
Why do you want Jason after A-Rod? Not trying to be a smartass just asking thats all:)
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:19 PM
Wilkerson had a very down year this year:
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2001 Mon 47 117 11 24 7 2 1 5 17 41 2 1 .205 .304 .325 .629
2002 Mon 153 507 92 135 27 8 20 59 81 161 7 8 .266 .370 .469 .839
2003 Mon 146 504 78 135 34 4 19 77 89 155 13 10 .268 .380 .464 .844
2004 Mon 160 572 112 146 39 2 32 67 106 152 13 6 .255 .374 .498 .872
2005 Was 148 565 76 140 42 7 11 57 84 147 8 10 .248 .351 .405 .756
Now I know it great to buy low on a player but in this current steroid era when I see a decline like this it makes me nervous about the player.
He was moving into a stadium that was hell for his home run stroke. He's a lefty pull hitter, and that doesn't work in RFK. It does in Yankee stadium.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:20 PM
Career stats:
Henderson: .279 .401 .419
Pierre: .305 .355 .375
Leadoff hitter need to get on base to steal bases. Henderson got on base .046 more times. That is an immense differerence.
Rickey Henderson is the greatest leadoff hitter in the history of the game. I will stipulate -- Juan Pierre is not the second coming of Rickey Henderson.
Would you take Chone Figgins as a leadoff hitter/CF right now? His OBP was .352 this year. How bout Scott Podsednik? His was .351. Rafael Furcal? .348. How about Johnny Damon? .366.
so you want to sign 2 guys past their prime? no thanks.
Two year deals won't kill anyone. Even in his decline Giles is better than a lot of "big name" hitters out there.
ryanm1058123
10-11-05, 11:20 PM
No! Juan Pierre is the best leadoff hitter in baseball! We can't win without him! He's a better leadoff hitter than Jeter!
/end Mike Francesa rant
jimmykey2
10-11-05, 11:20 PM
Why is everyone so down on Juan Pierre? His career numbers are as good as Johnny Damon's in every statistic except power/slugging areas. He won't be 30 until midway through the 2007 season, plus it's not like we'd give him a Bernie-esque 7 year offer. A solid 4 year deal should get the job done and I doubt the Marlins want him back. He had a bad season last year, but had 2 good years prior to that. I like Jacque Jones, but Pierre is better. I want no part of Brian Giles at all. Don't we have enough players like him already? How many number 3 hitters does this team need?
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:21 PM
so you want to sign 2 guys past their prime? no thanks.
When was JJ's prime?
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:22 PM
Why is everyone so down on Juan Pierre? His career numbers are as good as Johnny Damon's in every statistic except power/slugging areas. He won't be 30 until midway through the 2007 season, plus it's not like we'd give him a Bernie-esque 7 year offer. A solid 4 year deal should get the job done and I doubt the Marlins want him back. He had a bad season last year, but had 2 good years prior to that. I like Jacque Jones, but Pierre is better. I want no part of Brian Giles at all. Don't we have enough players like him already? How many number 3 hitters does this team need?
Whats wrong with Giles? He gets on base too much? That must be what you like about Pierre. Jacque Jones is better offensively and defensively that Pierre.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:24 PM
Rickey Henderson is the greatest leadoff hitter in the history of the game. I will stipulate -- Juan Pierre is not the second coming of Rickey Henderson.
Would you take Chone Figgins as a leadoff hitter/CF right now? His OBP was .352 this year. How bout Scott Podsednik? His was .351. Rafael Furcal? .348. How about Johnny Damon? .366.
I want Derek Jeter leading off. .386
And Pierre's was .324, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
NYDCYankee
10-11-05, 11:24 PM
This has been discussed to death and while I think Jeter could make a good CF its to late for A-Rod to go back to SS now, he is 3rd baseman now.
If Jeter moves to CF we have to aquire a new SS, I much rather just sign Jones and Giles and then be done.
Furcal?
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:25 PM
I want Derek Jeter leading off. .386
And Pierre's was .324, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Lifetime numbers. Granted he had a down year. That might be why we can get him.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:26 PM
Lifetime numbers. Granted he had a down year. That might be why we can get him.
He's declining. He's a one-tool player. Speed goes first. He will never have an OBP over .350 again, and he was still mediocre then.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 11:26 PM
Furcal?
Well then its Furcal and Giles/Jones versus Giles and Jones.
Also the latter alternative comes without the uncertainty of how well DJ translates into a CF.
Rickey Henderson is the greatest leadoff hitter in the history of the game. I will stipulate -- Juan Pierre is not the second coming of Rickey Henderson.
Would you take Chone Figgins as a leadoff hitter/CF right now? His OBP was .352 this year. How bout Scott Podsednik? His was .351. Rafael Furcal? .348. How about Johnny Damon? .366.
I would take him as a CFer, but I would still bat Jeter leadoff because his OBP is so much higher.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:29 PM
He's declining. He's a one-tool player. Speed goes first. He will never have an OBP over .350 again, and he was still mediocre then.
And what exactly is Jones? His last good year was 2003. And he's older.
jimmykey2
10-11-05, 11:29 PM
Whats wrong with Giles? He gets on base too much? That must be what you like about Pierre. Jacque Jones is better offensively and defensively that Pierre.
I like Jacque Jones, but when has he ever garnered any votes for MVP? Pierre managed to do that twice. People are getting very carried away over 1 bad season. Getting Brian Giles would be doing more of the same thing which hasn't gotten this team anywhere lately. He has a good OBP, but so what? This isn't the Red Sox where they live and die by OPS.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 11:31 PM
I like Jacque Jones, but when has he ever garnered any votes for MVP? Pierre managed to do that twice. People are getting very carried away over 1 bad season. Getting Brian Giles would be doing more of the same thing which hasn't gotten this team anywhere lately. He has a good OBP, but so what? This isn't the Red Sox where they live and die by OPS.
Jones is the better option because he comes cheaper, therefore there will be more money to invest in the likes of BJ Ryan which is one player we need to overpay to obtain.
NYDCYankee
10-11-05, 11:35 PM
When was JJ's prime?
2002 maybe?
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1999 Min 95 322 54 93 24 2 9 44 17 63 3 4 .289 .329 .460 .789
2000 Min 154 523 66 149 26 5 19 76 26 111 7 5 .285 .319 .463 .782
2001 Min 149 475 57 131 25 0 14 49 39 92 12 9 .276 .335 .417 .752
2002 Min 149 577 96 173 37 2 27 85 37 129 6 7 .300 .341 .511 .852
2003 Min 136 517 76 157 33 1 16 69 21 105 13 1 .304 .333 .464 .797
2004 Min 151 555 69 141 22 1 24 80 40 117 13 10 .254 .315 .427 .742
2005 Min 142 523 74 130 22 4 23 73 51 120 13 4 .249 .319 .438 .757
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:35 PM
I like Jacque Jones, but when has he ever garnered any votes for MVP? Pierre managed to do that twice. People are getting very carried away over 1 bad season. Getting Brian Giles would be doing more of the same thing which hasn't gotten this team anywhere lately. He has a good OBP, but so what? This isn't the Red Sox where they live and die by OPS.
Are you serious? Who the f*ck cares about f*cking MVP votes? Did you really just type that? I'm not getting carried away over 1 bad season. Pierre has been mediocre his entire career, except for his speed. His speed is declining, and he will probably stay bad. Jones is a BETTER PLAYER. I don't care if Retarded Jim Bob from the Oklahoma Daily News voting for Pierre for MVP because he doesn't f*cking understand how baseball works. PIERRE IS A BAD PLAYER AND HE IS DECLINING EARLY BECAUSE HE IS LOSING HIS ONLY ASSET. Getting Brian Giles would be cheaper than Pierre, because Pierre is under contract. And adding a guy to the lineup who makes very few outs is good, not bad. Pierre makes lots and lots of outs, and doesn't hit with any power, and plays bad defense. Brian Giles is actually the type of player that Gene Michael would have wanted, because he gets on base. I don't remember Gene Michael, who made the good Yankee teams good saying "Hey, we should trade good prospects for a lousy centerfielder who makes a ton of outs!" But then again, I've never garnered any MVP votes.
No! Juan Pierre is the best leadoff hitter in baseball! We can't win without him! He's a better leadoff hitter than Jeter!
/end Mike Francesa rant
I thought Francesa wanted Bernie to get a 10 year contract extension.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:37 PM
2002 maybe?
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1999 Min 95 322 54 93 24 2 9 44 17 63 3 4 .289 .329 .460 .789
2000 Min 154 523 66 149 26 5 19 76 26 111 7 5 .285 .319 .463 .782
2001 Min 149 475 57 131 25 0 14 49 39 92 12 9 .276 .335 .417 .752
2002 Min 149 577 96 173 37 2 27 85 37 129 6 7 .300 .341 .511 .852
2003 Min 136 517 76 157 33 1 16 69 21 105 13 1 .304 .333 .464 .797
2004 Min 151 555 69 141 22 1 24 80 40 117 13 10 .254 .315 .427 .742
2005 Min 142 523 74 130 22 4 23 73 51 120 13 4 .249 .319 .438 .757
Jones would be a big mistake. How 'bout my other idea (not in this thread) -- talk to Tampa Bay about Rocco Baldelli? He used to be able to fly, presumably he'll still be fast. He's got a rocket arm. And he's young. And with Tampa, he might be their 5th or 6th outfielder.
And what exactly is Jones? His last good year was 2003. And he's older.
And yet he's still a better option than Pierre.
Jones would be a big mistake. How 'bout my other idea (not in this thread) -- talk to Tampa Bay about Rocco Baldelli? He used to be able to fly, presumably he'll still be fast. He's got a rocket arm. And he's young. And with Tampa, he might be their 5th or 6th outfielder.
How about about Brian Giles and Jaque Jones and we save our prospects?
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:40 PM
How about about Brian Giles and Jaque Jones and we save our prospects?
With another year on Sheffield, we'd have the worst defensive outfield in baseball.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:41 PM
If the question of this thread is "Is Juan Pierre a free agent," then I can easily answer that: No. He isn't.
Pierre probably won't leave the Marlins until next year, as he's not a FA.
FA's- What about Jay Payton? I know the A's have an option, but will they pick it up? Jacque Jones isn't great, isn't bad, IS probably cheap. Preston Wilson is a last ditch resort as he won't get the same salary he had before. Encarnacion is even more last ditch than Wilson, but I'm pretty sure his OBP went UP this year, and he's fairly young. But there are a TON of downsides with him as well (and he seemed to have a better-than-average season in a FA year that's always a huge question mark).
Trades- Wilkerson interests me, and a down year may make it possible to get him for less. If he's decent enough defensively, and can hit somewhat, it's fine if we don't give up a ton. Torii Hunter intersts me as well, but the Twins want middle infielders, and there's no way they give up Cano (and there is no way the Twins take Womack + $ + prospects). The last possibility that was talked about was Milton Bradley. Yes, he's a "project" and yes he was injured... but he's young and could be very good (at least offensively). The Dodgers are in disarray, so maybe he could be "stolen", but I don't exactly know what they need right now (except... everything)
Other- No interest in Damon, no trading for Beltran. Damon has a horrible arm and was injured for most of the year. I want no part of Beltran's contract. Mike Cameron seemed like a nice fit at the right price... before he suffered a possible career threatening injury.
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:42 PM
With another year on Sheffield, we'd have the worst defensive outfield in baseball.
Sheffield would be DHing. The outfield would be Matsui, Jones, Giles. Light-years better than what we saw this year.
With another year on Sheffield, we'd have the worst defensive outfield in baseball.
We already have the worst OF in baseball. Sheff would DH with Giles in RF. Plus Giles is miles ahead of Sheff as a defensive RF.
NYDCYankee
10-11-05, 11:42 PM
He was moving into a stadium that was hell for his home run stroke. He's a lefty pull hitter, and that doesn't work in RFK. It does in Yankee stadium.
That is fair. And I think he would be a nice fit I really do, and I think he might come cheaply as well, but that quick decline concerns me. Of all things suggested in this thread I do think I like Wilkerson the best.
But let me suggest Ryan Church who the Nats are interested in moving.
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2004 Mon 30 63 6 11 1 0 1 6 7 16 0 0 .175 .257 .238 .495
2005 Was 102 268 41 77 15 3 9 42 24 70 3 2 .287 .353 .466 .819
Total -- 132 331 47 88 16 3 10 48 31 86 3 2 .266 .335 .423 .758
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 11:42 PM
With another year on Sheffield, we'd have the worst defensive outfield in baseball.
Sheffield would be the DH.
Matsui,Jones and Giles would be the outfield.
Not great but not bad either, Jones and Giles is certainly an upgrade over Bernie and Sheffield.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:43 PM
We already have the worst OF in baseball. Sheff would DH with Giles in RF. Plus Giles is miles ahead of Sheff as a defensive RF.
Point taken. I'm not hip to all these defensive stats. Is a UZR for a LF or RF comparable to a UZR for a CF?
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:43 PM
That is fair. And I think he would be a nice fit I really do, and I think he might come cheaply as well, but that quick decline concerns me. Of all things suggested in this thread I do think I like Wilkerson the best.
But let me suggest Ryan Church who the Nats are interested in moving.
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2004 Mon 30 63 6 11 1 0 1 6 7 16 0 0 .175 .257 .238 .495
2005 Was 102 268 41 77 15 3 9 42 24 70 3 2 .287 .353 .466 .819
Total -- 132 331 47 88 16 3 10 48 31 86 3 2 .266 .335 .423 .758
The Nationals are not interested in moving Ryan Church. Church is the reason they're moving Wilkerson. If they want to move Church, I'll gladly take him.
dabomb2045
10-11-05, 11:45 PM
Sheffield would be the DH.
Matsui,Jones and Giles would be the outfield.
Not great but not bad either, Jones and Giles is certainly an upgrade over Bernie and Sheffield.
I'm fully on the Giles bandwagon as well
he is an upgrade defensively in RF....Sheff can be a full-time DH...you could even slide Giles over to LF, Sheff to RF and give Matsui a game at DH occassionally
yanksphan
10-11-05, 11:47 PM
Point taken. I'm not hip to all these defensive stats. Is a UZR for a LF or RF comparable to a UZR for a CF?
No. You cannot compare a LF's UZR to a CF's UZR.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/main/article/lichtman_2003-03-14_0/
UZR rate is expressed as a fraction of 1, the same as a simple ZR (ZR). A UZR rate means essentially the same thing as a simple ZR � namely the number of balls fielded (turned into at least one out) divided by the number of chances; however, UZR rate is a weighted average of a player's ZR in each of several zones.
...
The entire field is broken down into 78 zones. These are the same zones you can find in the hit location diagram in the documentation section of the retrosheet website (www.retrosheet.org (http://www.retrosheet.org/)). Of these, UZR uses 64 of them. For infielders, only ground balls, including bunts, are looked at. Pop files caught or landing on an infield zone are excluded, as are line drives caught by an infielder or hit through the infield. For outfielders, all fair fly balls and line drives are included. None of the foul zones are used in UZR except for 3F and 3L, which are near the first and third base bags (for fair ground balls fielded in foul territory behind the bags). Catchers and pitchers are not included in UZR ratings.
more in that article. :)
NYDCYankee
10-11-05, 11:47 PM
The Nationals are not interested in moving Ryan Church. Church is the reason they're moving Wilkerson. If they want to move Church, I'll gladly take him.
They are interested because of that whole thing with the Nats chaplain and the Washington Post story. I have heard from several reporters in the news and on tv that they are looking to move him this winter. They could be wrong though.
Stupid Flanders
10-11-05, 11:48 PM
Please Lord, no Pierre.
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 11:48 PM
I'm fully on the Giles bandwagon as well
he is an upgrade defensively in RF....Sheff can be a full-time DH...you could even slide Giles over to LF, Sheff to RF and give Matsui a game at DH occassionally
Exactly, Sheff can still manage the RF occasionally just not full-time.
My outfielders for next year.
Starters:
Giles, Jones and Matsui
Backups:
Sheffield (when he is not DH:ing)
Lawton
Crosby
A good mix of defense (Bubba,Jones)
Power (Matsui,Sheffield)
and OBP (Lawton,Giles).
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:49 PM
They are interested because of that whole thing with the Nats chaplain and the Washington Post story. I have heard from several reporters in the news and on tv that they are looking to move him this winter. They could be wrong though.
Well paint me red and slap me silly. If they want to trade Ryan Church, I'd gladly take him. They're buffoons if they do.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:50 PM
No. You cannot compare a LF's UZR to a CF's UZR.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/main/article/lichtman_2003-03-14_0/
more in that article. :)
Thanks!
Then doesn't that mean that Jones' UZR rating as a corner outfielder doesn't mean he'd be a competant CF? I think the Yankees need a bona fide CF.
dabomb2045
10-11-05, 11:52 PM
Exactly, Sheff can still manage the RF occasionally just not full-time.
My outfielders for next year.
Starters:
Giles, Jones and Matsui
Backups:
Sheffield (when he is not DH:ing)
Lawton
Crosby
A good mix of defense (Bubba,Jones)
Power (Matsui,Sheffield)
and OBP (Lawton,Giles).
I'm down with that....then sign some middle relief help (BJ Ryan??) and we'll be good to go
I love Giles hitting in the #2 spot...perfect spot for him, and inables ARod to move down to the middle of the order where he belongs
Kluivert4Ever
10-11-05, 11:54 PM
I'm down with that....then sign some middle relief help (BJ Ryan??) and we'll be good to go
I love Giles hitting in the #2 spot...perfect spot for him, and inables ARod to move down to the middle of the order where he belongs
Exactly, I said all along that we dont really need to make many moves this off-season if we make the CORRECT ones.
Jones and Giles are enough as far as the lineup is concerend.
For the bullpen BJ Ryan is a necessity but after that we dont need much more (okey one more decent reliever couldn´t hurt but as long as we get Ryan Im satisfied with the bullpen, would love to promote a reliever from the farm as well).
So do you like my lineup? (See my sig)
I Love Wang
10-11-05, 11:55 PM
Thanks!
Then doesn't that mean that Jones' UZR rating as a corner outfielder doesn't mean he'd be a competant CF? I think the Yankees need a bona fide CF.
Jones has played a lot of CF. Were it not for Torii Hunter, he'd be in CF and nobody would care. For his career, he's 9 runs above average in CF. (159 games)
Thanks!
Then doesn't that mean that Jones' UZR rating as a corner outfielder doesn't mean he'd be a competant CF? I think the Yankees need a bona fide CF.
There isn't a good long time solution avalible so we gotta go with Jones as a stop gap until someone from the minors comes up or someone becomes avalible.
Ghost of Thurman
10-11-05, 11:55 PM
Exactly, I said all along that we dont really need to make many moves this off-season if we make the CORRECT ones.
Jones and Giles are enough as far as the lineup is concerend.
For the bullpen BJ Ryan is a necessity but after that we dont need much more (okey one more decent reliever couldn´t hurt but as long as we get Ryan Im satisfied with the bullpen).
So do you like my lineup? (See my sig)
Fantastic, except we don't have a center fielder. Wilson? Payton? Anyone?
Fantastic, except we don't have a center fielder. Wilson? Payton? Anyone?
Jones can play center.
dabomb2045
10-12-05, 12:01 AM
Exactly, I said all along that we dont really need to make many moves this off-season if we make the CORRECT ones.
Jones and Giles are enough as far as the lineup is concerend.
For the bullpen BJ Ryan is a necessity but after that we dont need much more (okey one more decent reliever couldn´t hurt but as long as we get Ryan Im satisfied with the bullpen, would love to promote a reliever from the farm as well).
So do you like my lineup? (See my sig)
I like the lineup alot (I wish there was a way we could trade Posada and sign Molina...but its not happening)
I'm not a huge Jones fan, but he is the best available CF..and he would be a stopgap solution until someone else is ready
I want Ryan badly...offer Gordon arbitration, and if he refuses at least we get the draft pick. I'd like to keep Leiter as a LOOGY/mid-relief/emergency starter, and I'd like to see Matt Smith get a look in Spring Training....Im also hoping JB Cox progresses quickly next season and perhaps can be a factor late in the season for us in the pen
I'm not sure what other relievers are available..but I'd like to see Ryan and maybe 1-2 other guys, so our pen has more depth...and we avoid overworking guys.
Wilson? Payton? Anyone?
I'd take either of these guys as a stop gap until we find out if Gardner or Melky can end up as ML players (or at least serviceable ML players until the wave of guys like Jackson and Tabata). Worse comes to worse, we stop gap and try the FA CF market again in a few years. Neither would be very expensive, both can field the position (and hit at least a little) and the majority of the offseason money can be used on getting a guy like Ryan. Payton is much better defensively than Wilson, Wilson is (supposedly) better offensively than Payton.
I wouldn't object to either one, provided it's a small deal, and the money is spent well in other places. As I said before, I like the ideas of trades for Wilkerson, Bradley or Hunter -- but they're going to cost prospects while Payton/Wilson may not even cost draft picks.
I like the lineup alot (I wish there was a way we could trade Posada and sign Molina...but its not happening)
I'm not a huge Jones fan, but he is the best available CF..and he would be a stopgap solution until someone else is ready
I want Ryan badly...offer Gordon arbitration, and if he refuses at least we get the draft pick. I'd like to keep Leiter as a LOOGY/mid-relief/emergency starter, and I'd like to see Matt Smith get a look in Spring Training....Im also hoping JB Cox progresses quickly next season and perhaps can be a factor late in the season for us in the pen
I'm not sure what other relievers are available..but I'd like to see Ryan and maybe 1-2 other guys, so our pen has more depth...and we avoid overworking guys.
We should also try to get Farnsworth. Hopefully his value dropped a little after his performance in the NLDS.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:04 AM
I wouldn't object to either one, provided it's a small deal, and the money is spent well in other places. As I said before, I like the ideas of trades for Wilkerson, Bradley or Hunter -- but they're going to cost prospects while Payton/Wilson may not even cost draft picks.
Wilkerson could be had for not prospects. I'd be willing to move Posada to get Wilkerson and Schneider in return.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:06 AM
I like the lineup alot (I wish there was a way we could trade Posada and sign Molina...but its not happening)
I'm not a huge Jones fan, but he is the best available CF..and he would be a stopgap solution until someone else is ready
I want Ryan badly...offer Gordon arbitration, and if he refuses at least we get the draft pick. I'd like to keep Leiter as a LOOGY/mid-relief/emergency starter, and I'd like to see Matt Smith get a look in Spring Training....Im also hoping JB Cox progresses quickly next season and perhaps can be a factor late in the season for us in the pen
I'm not sure what other relievers are available..but I'd like to see Ryan and maybe 1-2 other guys, so our pen has more depth...and we avoid overworking guys.
I agree, Molina would be an upgrade over Jorge but I think we will have to realise that Jorge is not going anywhere.
If we could ink Jones to a two year deal he would be the perfect stopgap for someone like Melky.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:07 AM
I agree, Molina would be an upgrade over Jorge but I think we will have to realise that Jorge is not going anywhere.
If we could ink Jones to a two year deal he would be the perfect stopgap for someone like Melky.
Why couldn't Posada go anywhere?
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:08 AM
We should also try to get Farnsworth. Hopefully his value dropped a little after his performance in the NLDS.
Great call, thats who I was thinking about, thank you.
Ryan and Farnsworth and we are good to go.
Mariano
Gordon (if he accepts attribation)
Ryan
Farnsworth
Leiter (Loggy)
Tanyon
Wright
"Someone promoted from the system"
Does that sound decent?
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:09 AM
Why couldn't Posada go anywhere?
I guess he could, I mean he could be at seven eleven right now as we speak.
But as far as trading him to another team goes, it will be difficult because of his contract.
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 12:09 AM
Are you serious? Who the f*ck cares about f*cking MVP votes? Did you really just type that? I'm not getting carried away over 1 bad season. Pierre has been mediocre his entire career, except for his speed. His speed is declining, and he will probably stay bad. Jones is a BETTER PLAYER. I don't care if Retarded Jim Bob from the Oklahoma Daily News voting for Pierre for MVP because he doesn't f*cking understand how baseball works. PIERRE IS A BAD PLAYER AND HE IS DECLINING EARLY BECAUSE HE IS LOSING HIS ONLY ASSET. Getting Brian Giles would be cheaper than Pierre, because Pierre is under contract. And adding a guy to the lineup who makes very few outs is good, not bad. Pierre makes lots and lots of outs, and doesn't hit with any power, and plays bad defense. Brian Giles is actually the type of player that Gene Michael would have wanted, because he gets on base. I don't remember Gene Michael, who made the good Yankee teams good saying "Hey, we should trade good prospects for a lousy centerfielder who makes a ton of outs!" But then again, I've never garnered any MVP votes.
Jacque Jones isn't a better player than Juan Pierre, despite Pierre's bad 2005 season. Jones has NEVER finished in the top 10 in ANY category in his ENTIRE career! In 6 seasons, Pierre has had an OBP under .350 twice. His career OBP is .355. Damon's is .353 and Jacque Jones is .327. Where did this idea come from that a 28 year old CF is losing speed?
Does everyone who's so enamored with Brian Giles realize this guy will be 35 years old when the 2006 season starts? That's 3 years older than Matsui! How much longer will he be playing the field? I thought this team needed to get younger and quicker. BTW, the Yanks problem isn't OBP. It's hitting with hitting w/RISP.
Wilkerson could be had for not prospects. I'd be willing to move Posada to get Wilkerson and Schneider in return.
Why would the Nationals take on $25 millon in contractual obligations in exchange for perhaps $6 million in salaries?
dabomb2045
10-12-05, 12:10 AM
We should also try to get Farnsworth. Hopefully his value dropped a little after his performance in the NLDS.
his value def dropped...we should be able to get him on the cheap
Great call, thats who I was thinking about, thank you.
Ryan and Farnsworth and we are good to go.
Mariano
Gordon (if he accepts attribation)
Ryan
Farnsworth
Leiter (Loggy)
Tanyon
Wright
"Someone promoted from the system"
Does that sound decent?
Good God, we can improve the team so much this offseason without spending insane amounts of money or giving up prospects left and right. Hopefully the FO reads nyyfans and not NYPOST.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:11 AM
Why would the Nationals take on $25 millon in contractual obligations in exchange for perhaps $6 million in salaries?
We just have to accept that unless we take on huge contract Posada is not tradeable.
The sooner we realise that and focus our efforts elsewhere the better.
Wilkerson could be had for not prospects. I'd be willing to move Posada to get Wilkerson and Schneider in return.
While that sounds nice, it also sounds very unrealistic to me. And I'm trying to be realistic this year when talking about trades, signings, etc. No more pipe dreaming.
yanksphan
10-12-05, 12:12 AM
Why couldn't Posada go anywhere?
Jorge Posada c
5 years/$51M (2002-06), plus $12M 07 club option
$15M signing bonus ($1.5M in 02, $2M in 03, $3M in 04, $4M in 05, $4.5M in 06)
02:$4M, 03:$5M, 04:$6M, 05:$8M, 06:$9M, 07:$12M club option ($4M buyout)
07 option guaranteed with 330 PAs as a catcher from 2004 to 2006
if option is exercised, Posada receives the buyout in 2008
Posada has right to opt out after 2004 season
1 year/$4.05M (2001), avoided arbitration 1/02
drafted 1990 (24- )
agents: Alan Nero, Luis Espinel
ML service: 8.085
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:12 AM
Good God, we can improve the team so much this offseason without spending insane amounts of money or giving up prospects left and right. Hopefully the FO reads nyyfans and not NYPOST.
Exactly, the only player we need to overpay to acquire is Ryan and Im willing to do that.
Guys like Jones and Farnsworth wont have us breaking any banks but still improve the team considerably.
We just have to accept that unless we take on huge contract Posada is not tradeable.
The sooner we realise that and focus our efforts elsewhere the better.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees eat one big contract in a trade. I'm just not sure that it will be Posada's.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:14 AM
Why do people keep bringing this guy up? He's 2 years younger than Bernie Williams, and he is going to want a 3 year deal worth a lot.
He's a great hitter, and he's not going to get a 3 year deal worth a lot. He'll probably only get offers for 2 years.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:16 AM
While that sounds nice, it also sounds very unrealistic to me. And I'm trying to be realistic this year when talking about trades, signings, etc. No more pipe dreaming.
The idea that we can move a switch-hitting catcher with power who gets on base for an inferior player at that same position and an outfielder who has no position and has fallen out of favor with the organization is hardly a pipe dream.
dabomb2045
10-12-05, 12:16 AM
Exactly, the only player we need to overpay to acquire is Ryan and Im willing to do that.
Guys like Jones and Farnsworth wont have us breaking any banks but still improve the team considerably.
agreed....I was all about saying lets rebuild last night, but now a day later when I'm calm and more rational...its very clear to see that if the right moves are made we can certainly contend for a title next year
the problem is...will the people in charge make the right moves?? or will they go ga-ga for someone like Pierre
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:17 AM
Why would the Nationals take on $25 millon in contractual obligations in exchange for perhaps $6 million in salaries?
Obviously we'd have to pay part of it. But they didn't score runs last year, and Posada is one of the best hitting catchers in baseball.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:18 AM
Jacque Jones isn't a better player than Juan Pierre, despite Pierre's bad 2005 season. Jones has NEVER finished in the top 10 in ANY category in his ENTIRE career! In 6 seasons, Pierre has had an OBP under .350 twice. His career OBP is .355. Damon's is .353 and Jacque Jones is .327. Where did this idea come from that a 28 year old CF is losing speed?
Does everyone who's so enamored with Brian Giles realize this guy will be 35 years old when the 2006 season starts? That's 3 years older than Matsui! How much longer will he be playing the field? I thought this team needed to get younger and quicker. BTW, the Yanks problem isn't OBP. It's hitting with hitting w/RISP.
Hitting with RISP is not a skill.
Juan Pierre is declining. And will cost something in a trade, and a contract he isn't worth.
28 year olds are slower than 25 year olds.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:23 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees eat one big contract in a trade. I'm just not sure that it will be Posada's.
Any suggestion to who´s contract that would be?
IF we were to eat a big contract who´s would make the most sense to eat?
Jaret Wright´s could be an option.
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 12:24 AM
We should also try to get Farnsworth. Hopefully his value dropped a little after his performance in the NLDS.
Except that EVERY team needs bullpen help, namely the team to the North which needs it more than we do. The prices for these relievers are going to be high.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:24 AM
agreed....I was all about saying lets rebuild last night, but now a day later when I'm calm and more rational...its very clear to see that if the right moves are made we can certainly contend for a title next year
the problem is...will the people in charge make the right moves?? or will they go ga-ga for someone like Pierre
Let me put it like this, if we DONT make the right moves this year we will be forced to rebuild in the near future.
We cannot afford another screw up like last winter.
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 12:24 AM
Hitting with RISP is not a skill.
Juan Pierre is declining. And will cost something in a trade, and a contract he isn't worth.
28 year olds are slower than 25 year olds.
How the heck is Pierre declining, yet we should sign Jones, whose decline extends beyond a single year? If it's so obvious that Jones is better than Pierre (which its not) why is it equally obvious that Jones can be had for a song while Pierre will cost the Boss is first born?
JeffWeaverFan
10-12-05, 12:25 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees eat one big contract in a trade. I'm just not sure that it will be Posada's.
Well, lets look at the big contracts we have and see who they could trade. I don't see much. Posada? No, he wouldn't accept a trade. Jeter? Nope. A-Rod? Nope. Sheff? He has already made his own no-trade clause and he isn't making much money for his production, so no. Matsui? I think we will re-sign him as he makes a ton of money for the organization.
That leads us to the pitchers. RJ? No chance. Mussina? No trade clause and he's pretty much untradeable. Wright? I don't see any team wanting him or giving us anything back if we did trade him so no, no point. Mo? Blasphemy. Pavano? Yes, he might be traded. I wonder how much we would get back and what we could get for him.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:25 AM
Except that EVERY team needs bullpen help, namely the team to the North which needs it more than we do. The prices for these relievers are going to be high.
If you are gonna overpay then it should to cover a necessary hole.
Not to sign a potenial 4th or 5th starter to a 21 million contract (Read Wright, Jaret).
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 12:25 AM
Hitting with RISP is not a skill.
Juan Pierre is declining. And will cost something in a trade, and a contract he isn't worth.
28 year olds are slower than 25 year olds.
One bad season makes a 28 year old player on the decline? I'm glad you weren't the GM when the Yanks traded for a 30 year old OF coming off a bad season. I'm sure the Reds thought Paul O'Neill was also "declining".
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 12:26 AM
Any suggestion to who´s contract that would be?
IF we were to eat a big contract who´s would make the most sense to eat?
Jaret Wright´s could be an option.
I think the contract we should eat would be either Wright or Pavano's and they should be sent to Tampa for one of their speedy outfielders. They NEED experienced pitching and we have some to spare, we need speedy outfielders and they have some to spare.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:26 AM
How the heck is Pierre declining, yet we should sign Jones, whose decline extends beyond a single year? If it's so obvious that Jones is better than Pierre (which its not) why is it equally obvious that Jones can be had for a song while Pierre will cost the Boss is first born?
Because Pierre is on another team. We'd have to trade for him. Also, he's a big name, thanks to all those MVP votes. Jones is an underrated player. Furthermore, Jones' entire value is not in an asset that typically declines sharply by age 30. He's a good outfielder because he knows how to play the outfield. Pierre is fast, and still a bad outfielder. He's just going to get worse.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:27 AM
I think the contract we should eat would be either Wright or Pavano's and they should be sent to Tampa for one of their speedy outfielders. They NEED experienced pitching and we have some to spare, we need speedy outfielders and they have some to spare.
I still got hopes for Pavano, in contrast to Wright. So if I had to choose I much rather see us trading Wright than Pavano.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:27 AM
One bad season makes a 28 year old player on the decline? I'm glad you weren't the GM when the Yanks traded for a 30 year old OF coming off a bad season. I'm sure the Reds thought Paul O'Neill was also "declining".
Paul O'Neill hit for power and got on-base by walking. Pierre doesn't do these things. When a player's only asset is speed, he'll decline very early.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:29 AM
Paul O'Neill hit for power and got on-base by walking. Pierre doesn't do these things. When a player's only asset is speed, he'll decline very early.
You are correct, sir.
Plus Pierre's prior leve of production wasn't particularly impressive either.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:31 AM
Plus Pierre's prior leve of production wasn't particularly impressive either.
I'm sayin.
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 12:35 AM
Paul O'Neill hit for power and got on-base by walking. Pierre doesn't do these things. When a player's only asset is speed, he'll decline very early.
O'Neill's OBP in Cinncy was never higher than .350. He also hit 14-16 HRs 4 of his 5 years on the Reds. Let's not act like that was a no brainer deal. You still haven't explained where you got the idea that his speed is declining. What did you base that on?
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 12:35 AM
Because Pierre is on another team. We'd have to trade for him. Also, he's a big name, thanks to all those MVP votes. Jones is an underrated player. Furthermore, Jones' entire value is not in an asset that typically declines sharply by age 30. He's a good outfielder because he knows how to play the outfield. Pierre is fast, and still a bad outfielder. He's just going to get worse.
Florida is in dire financial straits. They may need to trade Delgado to clear salary. So there may be some flexibility there.
Not to be too harsh on Jones, but I'm not sure what his "entire value" is. He's a hitting corner outfielder who hasn't batten over .254 since 2003. He strikes out a lot, and he doesn't walk much. His slugging percentage hasn't been over .438 for 2 years. He's just not that good. On what basis can you argue that he's underrated?
Florida is in dire financial straits. They may need to trade Delgado to clear salary. So there may be some flexibility there.
Not to be too harsh on Jones, but I'm not sure what his "entire value" is. He's a hitting corner outfielder who hasn't batten over .254 since 2003. He strikes out a lot, and he doesn't walk much. His slugging percentage hasn't been over .438 for 2 years. He's just not that good. On what basis can you argue that he's underrated?
He's a better option than Pierre.
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 12:40 AM
He's a better option than Pierre.
BASED ON WHAT? The fact he's a free agent? I like Jacque Jones, but the guy hasn't had a good career. He hasn't had even 1 big season.
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 12:42 AM
BASED ON WHAT? The fact he's a free agent? I like Jacque Jones, but the guy hasn't had a good career. He hasn't had even 1 big season.
Ditto. If you're gonna sign Giles, I'd rather move Matsui to center, sign Molina or Hernandez, and make Posada the DH than sign Jones. Posada can get some ABs at C and 1B as well.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:42 AM
BASED ON WHAT? The fact he's a free agent? I like Jacque Jones, but the guy hasn't had a good career. He hasn't had even 1 big season.
Based on potential salary.
Dooley Womack
10-12-05, 12:44 AM
Jacque Jones has played only a handful of games in CF. As a corner outfielder he's inconsistent and nothing to write home about. Why would anybody want him in CF, of all places, after all the failed experiments the Yanks went through this year in center?
I'd rather stick with Crosby if it came to a choice between Bubba and Jones. Why take on another salary, no matter how small, the Yanks will regret?
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:46 AM
O'Neill's OBP in Cinncy was never higher than .350. He also hit 14-16 HRs 4 of his 5 years on the Reds. Let's not act like that was a no brainer deal. You still haven't explained where you got the idea that his speed is declining. What did you base that on?
Speed declines as you approach 30. In all athletes in all sports. O'Neill TOOK WALKS and HIT FOR POWER. These skills often improve after age 30. O'Neill was a better player in NY than could reasonably have been expected based on his production in Cincinatti. Do you expect Pierre to suddenly become more patient at the plate and start hitting for power? O'Neill walked 77 and 73 times his last two seasons in Cincinatti, with 496 and 538 at-bats. Pierre has walked 45 and 41 times the last two years, with 678 and 656 at-bats. A huge quantity of his hits have been infield hits, but he declined from 52 last year to 31 this year. That indicates a loss of speed.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 12:47 AM
Jones has played only a handful of games in CF. As a corner outfielder he's inconsistent and nothing to write home about. Why would anybody want him in CF after all the failed experiments the Yanks went through this year in center?
I'd rather stick with Crosby if it came to a choice between Bubba and Jones. Why take on another salary, no matter how small, the Yanks will regret?
If I knew I would regret signing Jones I would not do it of course, but I think he would make a good CF here and an upgrade over Bubba both offensively and defensively. I would keep Bubba as a backup.
Now you say, where is your evidence that Jones will achieve this.
I dont got any, its just a hunch:)
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:48 AM
Jones has played only a handful of games in CF.
158
As a corner outfielder he's inconsistent and nothing to write home about.
He's ranked very highly defensively every year of his career. Thats consistent enough for me.
Why would anybody want him in CF after all the failed experiments the Yanks went through this year in center?
Because he's a better outfielder than any of them.
I'd rather stick with Crosby if it came to a choice between Bubba and Jones.
Crosby can't hit. If he could, he'd be a valid choice in CF.
Why take on another salary, no matter how small, the Yanks will regret?
The idea here is that he'll be a productive player. You, for reasons you invented, are the one who thinks they'll regret his salary.
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 12:52 AM
158
The idea here is that he'll be a productive player. You, for reasons you invented, are the one who thinks they'll regret his salary.
If he performs at the level he's performed every year of his career (except 2002) it will be regrettable UNLESS he's willing to sign for very little. What do you think it might cost to get him?
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:56 AM
If he performs at the level he's performed every year of his career (except 2002) it will be regrettable UNLESS he's willing to sign for very little. What do you think it might cost to get him?
Nonsense. If he plays a quality CF, while hitting more than well enough to be a #9 hitter, it won't be regrettable. He'll outhit Pierre anyway.
I would say a 2 year deal for 10million. He made 5 million this year, so that should do it.
Incidentally, I'd just like to point out that my first pick for CF is Brad Wilkerson. I'm just saying Jones would be better than Pierre.
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 12:57 AM
We might as well underpay for Lawton than overpay for Jones.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:58 AM
We might as well underpay for Lawton than overpay for Jones.
Lawton can't play CF.
And why do you think we'll be overpaying for him? Why do people keep making up crap for no reason?
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 12:59 AM
Nonsense. If he plays a quality CF, while hitting more than well enough to be a #9 hitter, it won't be regrettable. He'll outhit Pierre anyway.
I would say a 2 year deal for 10million. He made 5 million this year, so that should do it.
:eek: :scared: $5 million a year for him? I think Pierre would cost 6 or 7. At $5 million Jones would be a disaster -- unless of course we got lucky which is always possible (who knew Chacon would be such a stud?)
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:05 AM
:eek: :scared: $5 million a year for him? I think Pierre would cost 6 or 7. At $5 million Jones would be a disaster -- unless of course we got lucky which is always possible (who knew Chacon would be such a stud?)
Pierre would cost 7 for 4 years. Jones would cost 5 for 2. And Pierre would have to be traded for. Not to mention that Jones outhit Pierre this year, and is a better hitter and fielder ver their careers.
OPS+
Jones: 101
Pierre: 87
EqA
Jones: .268
Pierre: .257
27IsNext
10-12-05, 01:07 AM
:lol: :roflmao: :lol:
We're actually comparing Pierre to the great Paul O'Neill...
:(
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 01:08 AM
Pierre would cost 7 for 4 years. Jones would cost 5 for 2. And Pierre would have to be traded for. Not to mention that Jones outhit Pierre this year, and is a better hitter and fielder ver their careers.
OPS+
Jones: 101
Pierre: 87
EqA
Jones: .268
Pierre: .257
OPS and EqA don't incorporate 2 factors that I think are lacking on the Yankees and that Pierre would bring to bear -- speed and disruption. I know Jones has a higher OPS, but it's not enough higher to offset Pierre's benefits. My opinion, and we can agree to disagree. I will say that if it's not Pierre, I really hope it's not Jones. Just looking at the numbers as part of parrticipating in this discussion has convinced me that Jones would be a BAD sign, especially if we're relying on him to play center.
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 01:09 AM
:lol: :roflmao: :lol:
We're actually comparing Pierre to the great Paul O'Neill...
:(
In 1992, nobody would have referred to O'Neill as "great". Ever.
27IsNext
10-12-05, 01:10 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees eat one big contract in a trade. I'm just not sure that it will be Posada's.
Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if they did eat Po's contract, sign Molina, and tell him you can be backup/DH here or go to another team and start.
Would you consider Wright a big contract, taking into account the "X number of days on the DL" clause? I'm pretty sure they'll try and move him.
27IsNext
10-12-05, 01:11 AM
In 1992, nobody would have referred to O'Neill as "great". Ever.
That doesn't change the fact that it's a rediculous comparison. Paul O'Neill shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Pierre.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:12 AM
OPS and EqA don't incorporate 2 factors that I think are lacking on the Yankees and that Pierre would bring to bear -- speed and disruption. I know Jones has a higher OPS, but it's not enough higher to offset Pierre's benefits. My opinion, and we can agree to disagree. I will say that if it's not Pierre, I really hope it's not Jones. Just looking at the numbers as part of parrticipating in this discussion has convinced me that Jones would be a BAD sign, especially if we're relying on him to play center.
EqA does account for baserunning.
Jones is a better CFer than Pierre.
Jones is a better hitter than Pierre.
Pierre, a player whose only asset is speed, has already shown signs of decline in that area, and players of his type typically decline abruptly.
Please address each of these points.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 01:15 AM
Would you consider Wright a big contract, taking into account the "X number of days on the DL" clause? I'm pretty sure they'll try and move him.
Considering what you acctually get for Wright he could very well be the largest contract we have.
Dooley Womack
10-12-05, 01:15 AM
158
Of which 145 were played in years 1999 and 2000. Nice try, though!
He's ranked very highly defensively every year of his career. Thats consistent enough for me.
.859 and .905 in the two years he played CF. Hello Bernie! Nice try again!
Because he's a better outfielder than any of them.
Bubba this year: .966 ZR in 41 games. Smaller sample, but still trounces Jones. You're oh for 3 thus far.
Crosby can't hit. If he could, he'd be a valid choice in CF.
And Jacque's .319 OBP and career .327 excite you?????
The idea here is that he'll be a productive player. You, for reasons you invented, are the one who thinks they'll regret his salary.
Seems like you're the one trying to reinvent the wheel here. I suggest you do your homework next time you want to play the well-informed wisea$$.
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 01:15 AM
EqA does account for baserunning.
Jones is a better CFer than Pierre.
Jones is a better hitter than Pierre.
Pierre, a player whose only asset is speed, has already shown signs of decline in that area, and players of his type typically decline abruptly.
Please address each of these points.
Jones is not a center fielder.
I will accept that from a statistical perspective, a team made up a 9 JJs may be better than a team made up of 9 JPs. Given what we have already, I'll take JP any day.
There is no conclusive evidence that his speed has declined. At worst the evidence is mixed (infield hits down, but steal % up). He's 28, not 34. Not a concerns for a few more years.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 01:20 AM
Wow, Jaque Jones should see this thread, who ever thought he would get so much attention;)
For the record, despite Dooley´s and others great efforts I still want to sign him, but only for 2 years.
27IsNext
10-12-05, 01:22 AM
SS Jeter
RF Giles
1B Giambi
3B Rodriguez
DH Sheffield
LF Matsui
CF Cameron
C Molina
2B Cano
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 01:24 AM
SS Jeter
RF Giles
1B Giambi
3B Rodriguez
DH Sheffield
LF Matsui
CF Cameron
C Molina
2B Cano
We agree on the top 6.
I also agree on number 8th but I dont think its possible.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:26 AM
Of which 145 were played in years 1999 and 2000. Nice try, though!
Nice try yourself. You made up the lie that he'd only played a handful of games in CF. He played 159. (i typoed last time)
.859 and .905 in the two years he played CF. Hello Bernie! Nice try again!
Bernie wishes he could post a .905. And, using better stats, he's a +9 career in CF. For comparison, Pierre is a -28, Bernie is a -30.
Bubba this year: .966 ZR in 41 games. Smaller sample, but still trounces Jones. You're oh for 3 this far.
I said Crosby was a good outfielder. He still can't hit.
And Jacque's .319 OBP and career .327 excite you????? Jones career OPS+ of 101 is good enough to hit 9th.
Seems like you're the one trying to reinvent the wheel here. I suggest you do your homework next time you want to play the well-informed wisea$$.
Yeah, you really got me. And way to misuse the phrase "reinvent the wheel."
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 01:27 AM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spjon1012,0,4662476.column?page=1&coll=ny-top-headlines
Here Heyman goes calling for the trading of Cano and Wang.
Dooley Womack
10-12-05, 01:29 AM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spjon1012,0,4662476.column?page=1&coll=ny-top-headlines
Here Heyman goes calling for the trading of Cano and Wang.
Can you say, "putz?"
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:29 AM
Jones is not a center fielder. He was before Torii Hunter came along. Johnny Damon got moved out of CF for Carlos Beltran and moved back a few years later. He seems to have done all right.
I will accept that from a statistical perspective, a team made up a 9 JJs may be better than a team made up of 9 JPs. Given what we have already, I'll take JP any day. Given that this means Jones is a better player, you'll lose any day.
There is no conclusive evidence that his speed has declined. At worst the evidence is mixed (infield hits down, but steal % up). He's 28, not 34. Not a concerns for a few more years.
A 28 year old who has no real hitting skill, no power, no patience, but still most of his speed is a good bet to decline. Ask Willie Wilson.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spjon1012,0,4662476.column?page=1&coll=ny-top-headlines
Here Heyman goes calling for the trading of Cano and Wang.
Put the crack pipe DOWN!
Dooley Womack
10-12-05, 01:40 AM
Nice try yourself. You made up the lie that he'd only played a handful of games in CF. He played 159. (i typoed last time)
You get banned here for calling other members liars. 159 games in a 6 year career is a "handful" to me, especially when he's only played 13 games the past 5 years there.
Bernie wishes he could post a .905. And, using better stats, he's a +9 career in CF. For comparison, Pierre is a -28, Bernie is a -30.
Jones career ZR at CF is .874, Bernie's is .879 and that's including his decline over the past few years. Advantage Bubba. Yor stats also include Bernie in decline and possibly the worst CF in baseball over the past few years
I said Crosby was a good outfielder. He still can't hit.
And neither can Jones. Why spend money for yet another "fix" that has "failure" written all over it? Do I think Bubba is the answer? Of course not. But neither is Jones.
Jones career OPS+ of 101 is good enough to hit 9th.
Just what we need. Another CF who is only good enough to bat 9th and who strikes out 120 times a year and is far from impressive in the field! That's the ticket! Say hello to my friend, Tony Womack.
Yeah, you really got me. And way to misuse the phrase "reinvent the wheel."
The first time you're actually correct. Unfortunately, your attitude won't win you many friends around here, especially a "newbie" who we haven't had time to digest yet. Give it some time before you've earned the right to piss people off. ;)
Dooley Womack
10-12-05, 01:41 AM
Put the crack pipe DOWN! :roflmao:
Kulish29
10-12-05, 01:44 AM
4. Trade Chien-Ming Wang for A's starter Barry Zito.
The Yankees are extremely reticent to trade the youngsters who outperformed expectations. I say, sell high. Zito is at the same stage when Oakland traded pitchers Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson, and the colorful lefthander is a guy who could make it big in New York.
The whole article is dumb. But THAT quote is just straight up f*cking stupid.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:48 AM
You get banned here for calling other members liars. 159 games in a 6 year career is a "handful" to me, especially when he's only played 13 games the past 5 years there.
I didn't call you a liar. You said something that was patently untrue, and then pretended I was wrong when I called you on it. I doubt many people would consider 159 games "only a handful."
Jones career ZR at CF is .874, Bernie's is .879 and that's including his decline over the past few years. Advantage Bubba. Yor stats also include Bernie in decline and possibly the worst CF in baseball over the past few years
ZR is a shoddy stat that doesn't take park factors into account. RAA does, to some extent, and it says Jones is better than average. I agree that Bubba is probably at least his equal defensively.
And neither can Jones. Why spend money for yet another "fix" that has "failure" written all over it? Do I think Bubba is the answer? Of course not. But neither is Jones.
Jones is an average hitter. He won't cost much, so its not a big deal. Why do you keep bringing up Bubba if you agree he's not the answer?
Just what we need. Another CF who is only good enough to bat 9th and who strikes out 120 times a year! That's the ticket!
How many teams have an average hitter hitting 9th? Probably not many. Most have a well-below average hitter. What would you recommend instead? Trading for a CFer? Signing Damon?
The first time you're actually correct. Unfortunately, your attitude won't win you many friends around here, especially a "newbie" who we haven't had time to digest yet. Give it some time before you've earned the right to piss people off. ;)
My only point in supporting Jones is that he's better than Juan Pierre. Considerably better. My first pick, as I said, is to try to trade for a position-less Brad Wilkerson.
Dooley Womack
10-12-05, 01:50 AM
The whole article is dumb. But THAT quote is just straight up f*cking stupid.
The NY media is so ill-informed that it's not even funny. I was listening to Joe Benigno on the FAN this afternoon and I was astounded how little he knows about the Yanks, and sports in general (that doesn't pertain to the Mets and Jets) yet he thought he had a right to trash the Yanks, without knowing spit about them. I felt like calling him and trashing his ineptitude.
I have to say, that even though they are hard on their Sox, and create controversy, the Boston sports media is tremendously better and more informed than the NY media.
Kulish29
10-12-05, 01:58 AM
The NY media is so ill-informed that it's not even funny. I was listening to Joe Benigno on the FAN this afternoon and I was astounded how little he knows about the Yanks, and sports in general (that doesn't pertain to the Mets and Jets) yet he thought he had a right to trash the Yanks, without knowing spit about them. I felt like calling him and trashing his ineptitude.
I have to say, that even though they are hard on their Sox, and create controversy, the Boston sports media is tremendously better and more informed than the NY media.
When I visted NY in September, I listend to sports radio coming home from some Yankees games and got to 'schmooz' with Steve Somers. He was THE WORST sports talk radio guy I heard out there. All he did was trash the Yankees.
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 02:01 AM
5. Carl Pavano, not the guy for New York, should be traded.
Detroit seems like a good spot for him.
This seems to make a bit of sense to me, but what could we get back. Could we get Granderson for him? Could we get an arm like Verlander (doubtful)? I am just curious what kind of market there might be for him, even if we took some of the contract.
Dooley Womack
10-12-05, 02:02 AM
I didn't call you a liar. You said something that was patently untrue, and then pretended I was wrong when I called you on it. I doubt many people would consider 159 games "only a handful."
I wouldn't necessarily call it untrue. Maybe I should have said that he's played 158 games in CF over a 6 year career, 145 the first two and only 13 (a handful) over the last 5.
ZR is a shoddy stat that doesn't take park factors into account. RAA does, to some extent, and it says Jones is better than average. I agree that Bubba is probably at least his equal defensively.
I agree it's not the most reliable stat. Actually, I think anyone can misuse most stats to argue a case. At the very least Bubba is his equal, I agree, but I'm not sure that I want to take on Jacque's bat, hence another salary, hence another experiment. No doubt we need to do something, I'm just not sure he's the answer.
Jones is an average hitter. He won't cost much, so its not a big deal. Why do you keep bringing up Bubba if you agree he's not the answer?
Because I actually think Bubba is the better defender, and if we are going to go after a CF I want more defensively and offensively. Womack didn't cost much, but I'm sure you'll agree it was money and a spot wasted on the roster.
How many teams have an average hitter hitting 9th? Probably not many. Most have a well-below average hitter. What would you recommend instead? Trading for a CFer? Signing Damon?
Maybe I'm just spoiled by the position, particularly Bernie up until a couple of years ago. CF has always been a sacred position at Yankee Stadium. I just don't want an average at best fielder there who hits 9th.
If we could get Damon for 2 years I'd take hime in a heartbeat over Jones. But we won't so that's moot.
My only point in supporting Jones is that he's better than Juan Pierre. Considerably better. My first pick, as I said, is to try to trade for a position-less Brad Wilkerson.
Then that's a good point, though it is debatable, considering that Pierre has played CF to a greater extent the past few years. I don't think that should be overlooked; the fact that he'll just step in.
Actually, I don't want either, but the Yanks need to do something.
Dooley Womack
10-12-05, 02:06 AM
When I visted NY in September, I listend to sports radio coming home from some Yankees games and got to 'schmooz' with Steve Somers. He was THE WORST sports talk radio guy I heard out there. All he did was trash the Yankees.
Somers is a clown who is OK to listen to for light listening purposes. His "act" to incite Yanks fans got old a long time ago.
Kulish29
10-12-05, 02:12 AM
This seems to make a bit of sense to me, but what could we get back. Could we get Granderson for him? Could we get an arm like Verlander (doubtful)? I am just curious what kind of market there might be for him, even if we took some of the contract.
If they trade Pavano, it should be for a young catcher IMO. How about, Pavano to the Braves for Johnny Estrada?
Kulish29
10-12-05, 02:16 AM
If they trade Pavano, it should be for a young catcher IMO. How about, Pavano to the Braves for Johnny Estrada?
Nevermind, I though Estrada was younger.
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 02:20 AM
Nevermind, I though Estrada was younger.
No problem you have been unminded. What about McCann? though they will probably never give him up. I gotta think that Pavano could bring us some nice young players, I am just not sure what.
Kulish29
10-12-05, 02:27 AM
No problem you have been unminded. What about McCann? though they will probably never give him up. I gotta think that Pavano could bring us some nice young players, I am just not sure what.
I dont think they'll trade McCan. He's their future.
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 02:30 AM
I dont think they'll trade McCan. He's their future.
Yeah your right, I like the Detroit connection much better, what about Nook Logan and Carlos Pena for Pavano?
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 08:19 AM
"Please sign me."
http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2004/04/12/cxTMXfXq.jpg
TheScooter
10-12-05, 08:30 AM
Would trade Sean Henn and Bubba Crosby for Juan Pierre?
TheScooter
10-12-05, 08:32 AM
If they trade Pavano, it should be for a young catcher IMO. How about, Pavano to the Braves for Johnny Estrada?
I can really see the Braves paying Pavano $29 million/3 years :confused:
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 08:39 AM
Would trade Sean Henn and Bubba Crosby for Juan Pierre?
Definitely
RhodeyYankee2638
10-12-05, 08:40 AM
Would trade Sean Henn and Bubba Crosby for Juan Pierre?
Its not a bad price for a late inning pinch runner
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 08:57 AM
"Please sign me."
http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2004/04/12/cxTMXfXq.jpg
"Me too, please"
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050603/050603_ryan_vmed_11a.widec.jpg
yanksphan
10-12-05, 09:03 AM
It's Joel Sherman, but....
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/29366.htm
TRADE GARY SHEFFIELD TO ADDRESS CENTER FIELD: Sheffield remains a great hitter. But he embodies an overall Yankee problem of too much age and too many sourpusses, and the money-obsessed Sheffield is facing his walk year. The White Sox were interested in obtaining Ken Griffey during the season for his bat and now might lose their one power source, Paul Konerko, to free agency. Could Chicago start a package with defensive stud Aaron Rowand to get Sheffield?
The Blue Jays crave power and believe Alexis Rios can play center. Is there a mega-trade possible involving Sheffield for Vernon Wells? Can Sheffield be used to obtain pieces that could be redirected to Minnesota to liberate Torii Hunter? The Yanks must find out and then aggressively pursue free agent Brian Giles to play right. Giles is said to favor the West Coast, and should draw strong interest, as well, from the Cubs and Red Sox, if they can move Manny Ramirez.
GO GET B.J. RYAN: The Orioles' closer will be among the most in-demand free agents, and the Yanks cannot even offer the closer job. What they can offer is huge money and vague promises of succeeding the indomitable Rivera. The expiring pacts of useless relievers Steve Karsay, Felix Rodriguez, Paul Quantrill and Mike Stanton total roughly $15 million. The Yanks must use a chunk to get a southpaw who dominates lefties and has proved he can pitch in the AL East.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 09:04 AM
"Me too, please"
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050603/050603_ryan_vmed_11a.widec.jpg
I heard that, as an incentive, Big Stein told Cashman that if he comes back he'll give him a BJ.
Born in the Bronx
10-12-05, 09:15 AM
From everything I've seen and read about him, he is average defensively with a very poor arm.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 09:17 AM
It's Joel Sherman, but....
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/29366.htm
:lol:
Vernon Wells for Sheffield? I remember hearing on the radio, during NYYvsTor games, that Toronto's management was concerned about Rios and how he hadn't developed ANY type of power, even after a couple of seasons.
However, it IS kind of intruiguing considering Sheff comes off the books after next season, and it'd give the Jays even MORE money to throw around, as they've commited to over 100mil(ithink) for the next 2 years for free agents. Having an extra 13 mil off the books after next season would definetly be helpful in landing a big time FA.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 09:17 AM
It's Joel Sherman, but....
http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/29366.htm
I just posted this in the Sox thread:
I had a nightmare last night that the Red Sox somehow parlayed Ramirez and the loss of Damon to FA into Dunn, Giles, Cameron, and possibly top prospects.
I woke up trembling.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 09:24 AM
"Please sign me."
http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2004/04/12/cxTMXfXq.jpg
Let me repeat this little statistic :
119 walks
64 strikeouts
.463 OBP out of Petco
Giambi may very well become the second-best on-base threat of this team.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 09:25 AM
I just posted this in the Sox thread:
I had a nightmare last night that the Red Sox somehow parlayed Ramirez and the loss of Damon to FA into Dunn, Giles, Cameron, and possibly top prospects.
I woke up trembling.
WHIP frightened me in another thread with something like that.
My vote is for Juan Pierre. He may not be a great lead off hitter, but the truth is that you're not gonna find my lead off hitters on the open market. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the only FA lead off hitter type out there is Kenny Lofton this year? Either way I'd rather have Juan Pierre in CF than Matsui.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 09:28 AM
My vote is for Juan Pierre. He may not be a great lead off hitter, but the truth is that you're not gonna find my lead off hitters on the open market. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the only FA lead off hitter type out there is Kenny Lofton this year? Either way I'd rather have Juan Pierre in CF than Matsui.
Do you realize we probably have the best leadoff hitter in business?
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 09:29 AM
My vote is for Juan Pierre. He may not be a great lead off hitter, but the truth is that you're not gonna find my lead off hitters on the open market.
Can someone please explain to me again why the Yankees need a leadoff hitter?
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 09:29 AM
Can someone please explain to me again why the Yankees need a leadoff hitter?
Jeter retired? :dunno:
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 09:33 AM
Jeter retired? :dunno:
You're thinking of Messier again. ;)
I don't understand the Pierre fascination. I think it's another case of taking a small sample size of pesky success (2003 WS) and romanticizing it over a 4 or 5 year period. If you want Juan Pierre in CF we should just start Tony Womack there next year, same difference.
Deliver me Brian Giles please.
Do you realize we probably have the best leadoff hitter in business?
First off what I was saying was that Pierre is easily dismissed on this board because he doesn't have the 'ideal' lead-off hitter stats. I wasn't trying to imply that he SHOULD be our leadoff hitter. Quite frankly I don't care if Pierre bats 9th, but we need somebody that is pesky. But if you want to talk about Jeter leading off I'll tell you this, I think he would be much better suited for batting in the 2 hole. Jeet is good in the leadoff spot but I think we're almost wasting his talent there.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 09:41 AM
First off what I was saying was that Pierre is easily dismissed on this board because he doesn't have the 'ideal' lead-off hitter stats. I wasn't trying to imply that he SHOULD be our leadoff hitter. Quite frankly I don't care if Pierre bats 9th, but we need somebody that is pesky. But if you want to talk about Jeter leading off I'll tell you this, I think he would be much better suited for batting in the 2 hole. Jeet is good in the leadoff spot but I think we're almost wasting his talent there.
We are wasting his talent by giving him the most at-bats of the team?
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 09:44 AM
Can someone please explain to me again why the Yankees need a leadoff hitter?
Too late, mate.
We are wasting his talent by giving him the most at-bats of the team?
Let me re-state that, we're wasting opportunies for him to come on with a speady runner ahead of him. With Pierre and Jeet in the 1 and 2 hole, or 9 an 1 hole you'd have 2 players back to back that routinely get 200 hits a season. Jeter our leadoff hitter for good? Thats an awful lot of money to give somebody that's batting leadoff.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 09:49 AM
You're thinking of Messier again. ;)
I don't understand the Pierre fascination. I think it's another case of taking a small sample size of pesky success (2003 WS) and romanticizing it over a 4 or 5 year period. If you want Juan Pierre in CF we should just start Tony Womack there next year, same difference.
Deliver me Brian Giles please.
The interesting thing about Pierre is that his OBP has not been awful coming into 2005, but his skillset (relying on basehits to maintain productivity, as well as the employment of speed) coupled with the propensity for a nagging leg injury, point towards a risky signing.
He proved this himself this year, when he hit .276, and his OBP slipped from .374 to .326.
.326 is awful.
A guy like Giles, however, has a TERRIBLE year by his standards in 2004, seeing his average drop to .284, and his OBP PLUMMETED to...
.374.
That is just about as high as the BEST year of Juan Pierre's illustrious career (.378).
Why? Because Giles plate discipline is fantastic, and even better, plate discipline is a skill that does not erode as quickly or to the same extent that other, more physically oriented skills do.
The interesting thing about Pierre is that his OBP has not been awful coming into 2005, but his skillset (relying on basehits to maintain productivity, as well as the employment of speed) coupled with the propensity for a nagging leg injury, point towards a risky signing.
He proved this himself this year, when he hit .276, and his OBP slipped from .374 to .326.
.326 is awful.
A guy like Giles, however, has a TERRIBLE year by his standards in 2004, seeing his average drop to .284, and his OBP PLUMMETED to...
.374.
That is just about as high as the BEST year of Juan Pierre's illustrious career (.378).
Why? Because Giles plate discipline is fantastic, and even better, plate discipline is a skill that does not erode as quickly or to the same extent that other, more physically oriented skills do.
Giles is a GREAT player! But Giles is 34 and he doesn't solve our CF problem.
We need to do much better than just getting a corner outfielder and shifting Matsui to center. Pierre risky signing? I'll tell you this..If we're gonna take a risk, then why not take it on at 28 yr old as opposed to a 34 yrd? And come on guys, it's dumb to compare Womack to Pierre.
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 09:57 AM
The interesting thing about Pierre is that his OBP has not been awful coming into 2005, but his skillset (relying on basehits to maintain productivity, as well as the employment of speed) coupled with the propensity for a nagging leg injury, point towards a risky signing.
He proved this himself this year, when he hit .276, and his OBP slipped from .374 to .326.
.326 is awful.
A guy like Giles, however, has a TERRIBLE year by his standards in 2004, seeing his average drop to .284, and his OBP PLUMMETED to...
.374.
That is just about as high as the BEST year of Juan Pierre's illustrious career (.378).
Why? Because Giles plate discipline is fantastic, and even better, plate discipline is a skill that does not erode as quickly or to the same extent that other, more physically oriented skills do.
The fact that Pierre only walks an average of 41 times per year is also scary. His speed coupled with the fact he is able to put a lot of balls in play have lead to his MLB success. Speed kills, but as we have seen with our own Bernie speed can also leave very quickly due to age and injury. Top that with the fact that Bernie was a FAR FAR superior player to Juan Pierre and any long term contract becomes terrifying. Pierre already has the rag arm without shoulder surgeries.
The only downside to Giles is that he's 34 years old, but a two year contract with a team option for a third is not a giant risk. It's a much safer bet than assuming Pierre will stay as healthy and "pesky" into his 30s.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 10:01 AM
Let me re-state that, we're wasting opportunies for him to come on with a speady runner ahead of him. With Pierre and Jeet in the 1 and 2 hole, or 9 an 1 hole you'd have 2 players back to back that routinely get 200 hits a season. Jeter our leadoff hitter for good? Thats an awful lot of money to give somebody that's batting leadoff.
First misconception : the idea that the leadoff hitter somehow shouldn't be a very good hitter. What's wrong with giving a lot of money to someone who is going to go the plate more than any other player on your team?
Second misconception : speedy runner is fine and all but you just can't steal first. Over 700 PA's, the difference in times on base between a .380 Jeter and a .340 Pierre is 30. Do you really believe speed and 'grittiness' will make up for these 30 additional opportunities. I don't.
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 10:01 AM
This is Tony Womack with the Cards in 2004:
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
145 553 91 170 22 3 5 38 26 5 36 60 .307 .349 .385 213 8 6 1 3 6
This is Juan Pierre's 162 game averages:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
654 100 199 22 9 2 47 51 18 43 40 .305 .355 .375 245 13 2 1 8 8
I'd say it is not that much of a stretch.
The fact that Pierre only walks an average of 41 times per year is also scary. His speed coupled with the fact he is able to put a lot of balls in play have lead to his MLB success. Speed kills, but as we have seen with our own Bernie speed can also leave very quickly due to age and injury. Top that with the fact that Bernie was a FAR FAR superior player to Juan Pierre and any long term contract becomes terrifying. Pierre already has the rag arm without shoulder surgeries.
The only downside to Giles is that he's 34 years old, but a two year contract with a team option for a third is not a giant risk. It's a much safer bet than assuming Pierre will stay as healthy and "pesky" into his 30s.
This is more of the same mentallity that has gotten the Yankees to where they've been in the last few years. it's the same old....
'get an old guy, play him out of position, or make somebody else play out of position for him, etc..' The Yanks have got plenty of money and I for one would rather seem them take a risk at a younger player win or lose than to bring in a veteran. We need speed. This team has become an incredibly 1 dimensional station to station line up team.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 10:04 AM
Giles is a GREAT player! But Giles is 34 and he doesn't solve our CF problem.
We need to do much better than just getting a corner outfielder and shifting Matsui to center.
Yes that's the idea.
And if you look closely at the numbers, you'll see it's not that dumb to compare Pierre and Womack. Pierre is just younger, but he'll more than probably follow the same road.
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.7 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
0