View Full Version : Juan Pierre?? (Is he a FA, and should we get him? -Mod)
161 and River Ave.
10-12-05, 10:05 AM
Screw Pierre and Giles and Damon, and lets roll the dice and work a trade to get Rocco Baldelli here. Thats right Rocco Baldelli. The Devil Rays are loaded in the outfield with Cantu, Crawford, Gathwright and Huff; so a deal for a guy coming off Tommy John surgery and making less than $500,000 can't be that hard. And you know what if he sucks, he sucks. IMO he's worth the risk, and if it doesnt work out, then we wait until 2007 when Melky might be ready.
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 10:05 AM
This is more of the same mentallity that has gotten the Yankees to where they've been in the last few years. it's the same old....
'get an old guy, play him out of position, or make somebody else play out of position for him, etc..' The Yanks have got plenty of money and I for one would rather seem them take a risk at a younger player win or lose than to bring in a veteran. We need speed. This team has become an incredibly 1 dimensional station to station line up team.
At 28 Pierre is already showing signs of decline because his one skill is removed from the equation with any kind of leg injuries. Look at the above comparison with his stats and Womack's they aren't that different of a baseball player.
Matsui was a CFer in Japan so we've already moved him out of position for two years. Putting Giles in LF would put them both in their natural positions.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 10:09 AM
Giles is a GREAT player! But Giles is 34 and he doesn't solve our CF problem.
We need to do much better than just getting a corner outfielder and shifting Matsui to center. Pierre risky signing? I'll tell you this..If we're gonna take a risk, then why not take it on at 28 yr old as opposed to a 34 yrd? And come on guys, it's dumb to compare Womack to Pierre.
The chances that Pierre will have an OBP in the .326 range, as oppossed to the .366 range, going forward are great.
Hideki in CF will not be a great defensive option, but the runs created/prevented with Giles/Matsui as opposed to Giles/Pierre isn't even debatable.
Giles' 2005 VORP: 65.1 (higher than any other RF not named Vlad, including Sheffield and Abreu)
Pierre's 2005 VORP: 20.5 (Thats good for 19th best CF in the Majors)
But Giles had a great year, and Pierre had an off one, right?
Fine- what about last year when Pierre had a great year, and GILES had an off one?
Pierre's 2004 VORP: 44.6
Giles' 2004 VORP: 50.8
Oh- the only players in MLB with more Win Shares than Brian Giles (35) last year were named:
Albert Pujols (38)
Alex Rodriguez (37)
Derrek Lee (37)
The net effect of bringing Giles aboard would be enormous.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 10:10 AM
This is more of the same mentallity that has gotten the Yankees to where they've been in the last few years. it's the same old....
'get an old guy, play him out of position, or make somebody else play out of position for him, etc..' The Yanks have got plenty of money and I for one would rather seem them take a risk at a younger player win or lose than to bring in a veteran. We need speed. This team has become an incredibly 1 dimensional station to station line up team.
Speaking of same logic, this "we need speed" motto is the same logic that brought us Tony Womack.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 10:15 AM
The net effect of bringing Giles aboard would be enormous.
Preach on brother. You've made me a believer.
Kluivert4Ever
10-12-05, 10:15 AM
Screw Pierre and Giles and Damon, and lets roll the dice and work a trade to get Rocco Baldelli here. Thats right Rocco Baldelli. The Devil Rays are loaded in the outfield with Cantu, Crawford, Gathwright and Huff; so a deal for a guy coming off Tommy John surgery and making less than $500,000 can't be that hard. And you know what if he sucks, he sucks. IMO he's worth the risk, and if it doesnt work out, then we wait until 2007 when Melky might be ready.
Cost for Giles, money.
Cost for Baldelli, prospects.
Unless we can convince Tampa to take on Wright or Pavano (with us eating a a major portion of the salary) I rather keep the prospects and go for Giles.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 10:21 AM
Preach on brother. You've made me a believer.
LBS and I (among others- I know IR is in the fold) would just like to make it clear that this is certainly not the best possible defensive allignment.
In fact, it is probably still a relatively poor one (except for the fact that Giles has a Matsui like arm, only stronger).
However, it is the best possible option available to the Yankees out there currently.
Giles is so far under the radar, that people don't even realize that he is among the elite hitters in the league. This guy put up production that was, by most metrics, GREATER THAN MANNY RAMIREZ'S.
If I told you that the Yankees had the chance to sign Manny Ramirez, but without the headaches and brain cramps, and WITH grit, hustle and a better arm, what do you think most Yankee fans would say?
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 10:21 AM
To add to Snatch Catch's point :
Giles EqA : .326 (better than Miguel Cabrera, Brian Roberts, Gary Sheffield and Mark Teixeira)
Pierre EqA : .256
I want solid defense and youth as much as anyone of the Pierre defenders, but there is NO WAY the defensive gap between a Matsui in CF and a Pierre in CF offsets the massive difference at the plate.
Plus, with the amount of young outfielders we have in the minors, the stop gap solution is a sound one, especially when the stop-gap is one of the ten best hitters in his league (and an adequate corner outfielder).
161 and River Ave.
10-12-05, 10:23 AM
Cost for Giles, money.
Cost for Baldelli, prospects.
Unless we can convince Tampa to take on Wright or Pavano (with us eating a a major portion of the salary) I rather keep the prospects and go for Giles.
Ok so by getting Giles we get another aging star who can make $6 for us until he is 40? Who is gonna play CF?
The successor to the Center Field job already is on the team.
Move A-Rod to Center. It's easier to replace the 3rd base position with younger home grown talent. It may even be a positive stroke to A-Rods ego for succeed Bernie in the chain of great center fielders.
Stupid Flanders
10-12-05, 10:30 AM
have I posted "PIERRE NO" yet here?
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 10:30 AM
LBS and I (among others- I know IR is in the fold) would just like to make it clear that this is certainly not the best possible defensive allignment.
In fact, it is probably still a relatively poor one (except for the fact that Giles has a Matsui like arm, only stronger).
However, it is the best possible option available to the Yankees out there currently.
Giles is so far under the radar, that people don't even realize that he is among the elite hitters in the league. This guy put up production that was, by most metrics, GREATER THAN MANNY RAMIREZ'S.
If I told you that the Yankees had the chance to sign Manny Ramirez, but without the headaches and brain cramps, and WITH grit, hustle and a better arm, what do you think most Yankee fans would say?
This must be very clear indeed : signing Giles has bad aspects (on the defensive side especially). But youth and defense mean nothing to me if there isn't actual talent behind them. Plus, the fact that Giles is a criminally underrated hitter, playing in an EXTREME pitcher park will probably lead to a contract that is going to underestimate his actual value.
There are flaws in the sign Giles plan, but there are many more flaws in the sign Jones, Damon, Pierre plans (in decreasing order of baseball sense).
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 10:31 AM
The successor to the Center Field job already is on the team.
Move A-Rod to Center. It's easier to replace the 3rd base position with younger home grown talent. It may even be a positive stroke to A-Rods ego for succeed Bernie in the chain of great center fielders.
Jeter to CF, Alex back to SS is a much better move.
I like Giles, but he is 34. He'll be 35 to start next season. Its time to get younger. I don't want Pierre either, but there have to be better options out there somewhere.
NYMeggi
10-12-05, 10:32 AM
How about they just pick up a CF and a bullpen? That is all that needs to be addressed. I am with everyone that said that Damon is not the answer there. While I love his bat, he is not that great in the field. I think Cameron would be a much better bet. He is young and I think he can only get better. He is great in the field, although a little weaker with a bat. BJ Ryan would be great as a set up guy. I know that Gordon's contract is up this year. I like him and what he has done this year, but his stuff is not as good as it once was. They'll need more in the bullpen, though. I have to look at the FA market. I don't remember who is open.
What I DO NOT want to see is the Yankees come back with an all new line up and pitching rotation. That has caused a lot of issues in the past. This team is starting to function as a unit. What has hurt them all year is the lack of a regular line up. Every night there is a different DH or CF. It is time to address that problem and get a set line up. I think that the team overall is great. I will be upset if GS goes crazy in the offseason and they end up with a whole new team again. They just need to address those 2 issues and let it be.
Pierre is definitely not the answer in CF. I hope they don't look that way.
Big Hugs! :)
:NY:Meggi
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 10:34 AM
This must be very clear indeed : signing Giles has bad aspects (on the defensive side especially). But youth and defense mean nothing to me if there isn't actual talent behind them. Plus, the fact that Giles is a criminally underrated hitter, playing in an EXTREME pitcher park will probably lead to a contract that is going to underestimate his actual value.
There are flaws in the sign Giles plan, but there are many more flaws in the sign Jones, Damon, Pierre plans (in decreasing order of baseball sense).
Agreed and our OF defense would STILL be better than it was this year (which admittedly isn't that hard to accomplish.) Ideally there would be a stud FA CF in the prime of his career that we wouldn't have to overpay for based on two great weeks. (So please don't start the Beltran stuff again.) That isn't happening. Jones, Damon, and Pierre would all be a more crippling and less optimum signing than taking on Giles.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 10:35 AM
I like Giles, but he is 34. He'll be 35 to start next season. Its time to get younger. I don't want Pierre either, but there have to be better options out there somewhere.
Sheffield was 35 when we signed him. I don't think anyone complains about that acquisition.
And I want to emphasize the fact that there is a very good case that Brian Giles is a better hitter than Gary Sheffield (as well as a better, or should I say more decent, fielder)
To add to Snatch Catch's point :
Giles EqA : .326 (better than Miguel Cabrera, Brian Roberts, Gary Sheffield and Mark Teixeira)
Pierre EqA : .256
I want solid defense and youth as much as anyone of the Pierre defenders, but there is NO WAY the defensive gap between a Matsui in CF and a Pierre in CF offsets the massive difference at the plate.
Plus, with the amount of young outfielders we have in the minors, the stop gap solution is a sound one, especially when the stop-gap is one of the ten best hitters in his league (and an adequate corner outfielder).
Who are the Pierre defenders?
Sheffield was 35 when we signed him. I don't think anyone complains about that acquisition.
And I want to emphasize the fact that there is a very good case that Brian Giles is a better hitter than Gary Sheffield (as well as a better, or should I say more decent, fielder)
I'm worried about these guys breaking down. Even Sheffield is a liability now.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 10:43 AM
I'm worried about these guys breaking down. Even Sheffield is a liability now.
Thats a very fair point, but would you rather worry about guys breaking down and becoming bad, or guys just being bad from the beginning and getting worse?
DontHateOnNumber2
10-12-05, 10:49 AM
Not enough years in the majors IIRC.
Either way, just say NO to Pierre.
Exactly! This Pierre Madness is running rampant within the minds of imbecile GMs who see him as a modern-day Rickey Henderson. We must plot to ruin his career....somebody get Tony Womack to face him in a foot race, THEN we'll see who gets the respect! :soapbox:
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 10:53 AM
I'm worried about these guys breaking down. Even Sheffield is a liability now.
Sheffield may be injured from time to time, he may have been awful this postseason, but you can't say he is a liability with a straight face.
He was #2 in AL Win Shares, and in the top 15 in VORP.
prcyankee
10-12-05, 11:00 AM
Can someone please explain to me again why the Yankees need a leadoff hitter?
EXACTLY!!!!
We don't need a lead-off hitter.
We need a good defensive CF!!!
DANG! :mad:
ICEBERG18
10-12-05, 11:05 AM
Can someone please explain to me again why the Yankees need a leadoff hitter?
Because Mike Lupica said so, now give it a rest. ;)
5. No leadoff man
Once again Monday night, Jeter was the heart and soul of the team and the most dangerous guy in the world to the Angels. He's still not a leadoff man. He wants to swing and hit it hard. The Yankees haven't had a real leadoff man since Chuck Knoblauch.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/354867p-302487c.html
chanman7483
10-12-05, 11:22 AM
Because Mike Lupica said so, now give it a rest. ;)
5. No leadoff man
Once again Monday night, Jeter was the heart and soul of the team and the most dangerous guy in the world to the Angels. He's still not a leadoff man. He wants to swing and hit it hard. The Yankees haven't had a real leadoff man since Chuck Knoblauch.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/354867p-302487c.html
What is he using for your definition of leadoff man? Someone who doesn't want to swing hard?
Crusadecat
10-12-05, 11:22 AM
You gotta think that Damon will eithier stay in Boston or he will be here.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 11:22 AM
Because Mike Lupica said so, now give it a rest. ;)
5. No leadoff man
Once again Monday night, Jeter was the heart and soul of the team and the most dangerous guy in the world to the Angels. He's still not a leadoff man. He wants to swing and hit it hard. The Yankees haven't had a real leadoff man since Chuck Knoblauch.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/354867p-302487c.html
Wow.
Wow.
As much of an idiot as Lupica has been over the years, I CANNOT remember a piece of his that greater illuminated how incredibly irrational, and quite frankly STUPID, the man is.
Wow.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 11:24 AM
Wow.
Wow.
As much of an idiot as Lupica has been over the years, I CANNOT remember a piece of his that greater illuminated how incredibly irrational, and quite frankly STUPID, the man is.
Wow.
Knoblauch's OBP in his 4 seasons as a yankee:
.361
.393
.366
.339
Jeter's OBP as a leadoff man last year:
.389
Also:
Knoblauch's BB totals as a yankee:
76
83
46
58
Jeter's BB total as a leadoff man:
77
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 11:26 AM
Knoblauch's OBP in his 4 seasons as a yankee:
.361
.393
.366
.339
Jeter's OBP as a leadoff man last year:
.389
But but but...he was pesky!
I loved what Knobby contributed, but make no mistake Derek is a far superior leadoff man at this point in his career.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 11:45 AM
By the way- I have a very unsettling feeling that Giles ends up in Boston.
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 11:49 AM
By the way- I have a very unsettling feeling that Giles ends up in Boston.
Stop saying that!
I still say Pierre!! Pierre!! Pierre!! I always loved Giles but he's older and we still need more speed on this team. I know figgins didn't hit but figgins was like the biggest threat on that team. Who didn't hold their breath everytime he lead off an inning? Why? Why did we hold our breath? Because we knew the distraction he could cause on the basepaths. The Yankees don't have anyone that creates that same sense of angst against opposing pitchers.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 11:57 AM
Who didn't hold their breath everytime he lead off an inning?
Chone Figgins is the HYBC*!
Bassically you're saying that you don't want results, you want the appearance of the potential for results...
*Hold Your Breath Champion
ICEBERG18
10-12-05, 11:59 AM
By the way- I have a very unsettling feeling that Giles ends up in Boston.
I just hope that the Yankees don't screw this offseason up.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:01 PM
Definitely
I don't want Pierre on the team, so Henn is too large a price. I look at him and I see a player who produces way too many outs offensively, and is a poor defender, and growing into a horrid one.
RIyankee
10-12-05, 12:01 PM
I'd rather have Bubby Crosby.
Pass.
GimeMoMuny
10-12-05, 12:03 PM
I still say Pierre!! Pierre!! Pierre!! I always loved Giles but he's older and we still need more speed on this team. I know figgins didn't hit but figgins was like the biggest threat on that team. Who didn't hold their breath everytime he lead off an inning? Why? Why did we hold our breath? Because we knew the distraction he could cause on the basepaths. The Yankees don't have anyone that creates that same sense of angst against opposing pitchers.That's it.
Word for word.
That's how it's going down...
:(
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:09 PM
If we could trade Sheffield for Vernon Wells and Sign Giles, I would not be angry. I'd be hoping Wells got back to hitting like he did in 2003, but he's a good enough hitter, and young enough, that we will survive there no matter what. For Rowand, I would want another player, probably one of their relievers. Giles is a much better fielder than Sheffield. Giles is about average at the corners, and a little below average in CF.
Sheffield for Rowand and Neil Cotts I would do in a second.
Soriambi
10-12-05, 12:20 PM
I'm perfectly happy with Jeter as the leadoff man for the Yankees, and I don't think Pierre would help at all. Take a look at this, which I just compiled:
MLB Leadoff hitters as compared to Jeter:
DEREK JETER: .839 OPS, .389 OBP
Rafael Furcal: .777 OPS, .348 OBP
Brian Roberts: .902 OPS, .387 OBP
Johnny Damon: .805 OPS, .366 OBP
Scott Podsednik: .700 OPS, .351 OBP
Grady Sizemore: .832 OPS, .348 OBP
Juan Pierre: .680 OPS, .326 OBP
David DeJesus: .804 OPS, .359 OBP
Chone Figgins: .749 OPS, .352 OBP
Jose Reyes: .686 OPS, .300 OBP
Jimmy Rollins: .769 OPS, .338 OBP
Dave Roberts: .784 OPS, .356 OBP
Ichiro Suzuki: .786 OPS, .350 OBP
David Eckstein: .758 OPS, .363 OBP
Carl Crawford: .800 OPS, .331 OBP
David Dellucci: .880 OPS, .367 OBP
Brad Wilkerson: .756 OPS, .351 OBP
Matt Lawton: .813 OPS, .380 OBP
Those were the guys who led their team in ABs from the leadoff hole, and who I felt were notable (and my definition of notable was anyone who didn't have a completely terrible OPS of like .650 from the leadoff hole, UNLESS they're considered by the media to be a good leadoff hitter (Reyes, Pierre). I have bolded all of the players who had OPSs higher than Jeter (note that Pierre isn't bolded, just in bigger font because this discussion is in regards to him), and I have italicized those who had higher OBPs. There are two bolded names (Dellucci and Roberts) and NO italicized names, meaning that Derek Jeter had the highest OBP of ANY leadoff hitter in MLB in 2005. The only ones who are close to what Jeter did this year in the leadoff hole are Roberts (Who was better this year, I believe, but it could have been a career year) and Dellucci, who kind of came out of nowhere. It is critical that a leadoff man get on base, and Jeter was leaps and bounds better than "traditional" leadoff guys like Pierre, Furcal, Podsednik, Ichiro, Chone Figgins, and Jose Reyes in 2005. In fact, I think that a case could be made that Derek Jeter is the best leadoff hitter in baseball going into 2005, if he stays in that posistion.
apolansk
10-12-05, 12:30 PM
Do not sign Juan Pierre. Period. It's that simple.
NelsonMuntz
10-12-05, 12:32 PM
I'm perfectly happy with Jeter as the leadoff man for the Yankees, and I don't think Pierre would help at all. Take a look at this, which I just compiled:
MLB Leadoff hitters as compared to Jeter:
DEREK JETER: .839 OPS, .389 OBP
Rafael Furcal: .777 OPS, .348 OBP
Brian Roberts: .902 OPS, .387 OBP
Johnny Damon: .805 OPS, .366 OBP
Scott Podsednik: .700 OPS, .351 OBP
Grady Sizemore: .832 OPS, .348 OBP
Juan Pierre: .680 OPS, .326 OBP
David DeJesus: .804 OPS, .359 OBP
Chone Figgins: .749 OPS, .352 OBP
Jose Reyes: .686 OPS, .300 OBP
Jimmy Rollins: .769 OPS, .338 OBP
Dave Roberts: .784 OPS, .356 OBP
Ichiro Suzuki: .786 OPS, .350 OBP
David Eckstein: .758 OPS, .363 OBP
Carl Crawford: .800 OPS, .331 OBP
David Dellucci: .880 OPS, .367 OBP
Brad Wilkerson: .756 OPS, .351 OBP
Matt Lawton: .813 OPS, .380 OBP
Those were the guys who led their team in ABs from the leadoff hole, and who I felt were notable (and my definition of notable was anyone who didn't have a completely terrible OPS of like .650 from the leadoff hole, UNLESS they're considered by the media to be a good leadoff hitter (Reyes, Pierre). I have bolded all of the players who had OPSs higher than Jeter (note that Pierre isn't bolded, just in bigger font because this discussion is in regards to him), and I have italicized those who had higher OBPs. There are two bolded names (Dellucci and Roberts) and NO italicized names, meaning that Derek Jeter had the highest OBP of ANY leadoff hitter in MLB in 2005. The only ones who are close to what Jeter did this year in the leadoff hole are Roberts (Who was better this year, I believe, but it could have been a career year) and Dellucci, who kind of came out of nowhere. It is critical that a leadoff man get on base, and Jeter was leaps and bounds better than "traditional" leadoff guys like Pierre, Furcal, Podsednik, Ichiro, Chone Figgins, and Jose Reyes in 2005. In fact, I think that a case could be made that Derek Jeter is the best leadoff hitter in baseball going into 2005, if he stays in that posistion.
EXCELLENT post Soriambi. Pierre may very well be the most overrated player in MLB. If Tony Womack took slightly better routes to flyballs in the outfield, he would be the equivilant of Juan Pierre. We don't need him. Jeter gets on base better than anyone. And it's not like he is clogging up the bases. The man has wheels. There's just no need to attempt a steal in the first inning when you have A-Rod, Giambi, and Sheffield coming up to bat. I want a centerfielder with a strong arm who can play some D. Pierre is not that guy.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:32 PM
Those were the guys who led their team in ABs from the leadoff hole, and who I felt were notable (and my definition of notable was anyone who didn't have a completely terrible OPS of like .650 from the leadoff hole, UNLESS they're considered by the media to be a good leadoff hitter (Reyes, Pierre). I have bolded all of the players who had OPSs higher than Jeter (note that Pierre isn't bolded, just in bigger font because this discussion is in regards to him), and I have italicized those who had higher OBPs. There are two bolded names (Dellucci and Roberts) and NO italicized names, meaning that Derek Jeter had the highest OBP of ANY leadoff hitter in MLB in 2005. The only ones who are close to what Jeter did this year in the leadoff hole are Roberts (Who was better this year, I believe, but it could have been a career year) and Dellucci, who kind of came out of nowhere. It is critical that a leadoff man get on base, and Jeter was leaps and bounds better than "traditional" leadoff guys like Pierre, Furcal, Podsednik, Ichiro, Chone Figgins, and Jose Reyes in 2005. In fact, I think that a case could be made that Derek Jeter is the best leadoff hitter in baseball going into 2005, if he stays in that posistion.
Excellent work. I would bet Roberts year appears out-of-context in a few years. In Delucci's case, he started off the season like a monster, but declined badly in the second half, to the tune of a .234 BA and a .317 on-base. So its pretty reasonable to think that Jeter is the best leadoff hitter in baseball.
Soriambi
10-12-05, 12:38 PM
While I'm at it:
There were 148 batting qualifiers in MLB this year. OPS-wise, Pierre stood at #137, meaning that there were exactly eleven players who qualified who had a worse OPS than Pierre.
Defensively, his Range Factor was dead last this year among MLB qualifying CFs. It was lower than Bernie Williams by a considerable amount. His Zone Rating is better, but he still ranks 12th out of 20 qualifiers.
(While I was looking through these stats, I noticed that Pudge Rodriguez had a .290 OBP this year. I knew he was having a down year, but I didn't realize that it was that down. Just thought that was interesting.)
apolansk
10-12-05, 12:38 PM
Excellent work. I would bet Roberts year appears out-of-context in a few years. In Delucci's case, he started off the season like a monster, but declined badly in the second half, to the tune of a .234 BA and a .317 on-base. So its pretty reasonable to think that Jeter is the best leadoff hitter in baseball.
Roberts did also. He was the early MVP in April. In april he was hitting .379/.459/.726 with 8 homers 10 stolen bases.
i wish we could get andrew jones >_<
Andruw*
SINCE77 2
10-12-05, 12:42 PM
As a former Pierre defender, I have to now say that I no longer want him on the team. If you don't hit for power, then you better get a lot of hits and get on base in order to use your speed. Pierre has taken quite the hit this year offensively and imo may not be worth a long term commitment. Jacque Jones is the better option and can probably be gotten for a shorter time frame.
We should change the thread title to "Juan Pierre, How much can he suck". I'm afraid some Yankee FO people are gonna just look at the thread title and get ideas.
As a former Pierre defender, I have to now say that I no longer want him on the team. If you don't hit for power, then you better get a lot of hits and get on base in order to use your speed. Pierre has taken quite the hit this year offensively and imo may not be worth a long term commitment. Jacque Jones is the better option and can probably be gotten for a shorter time frame.
He also plays better CF and hits better. And won't cost us prospects.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:47 PM
(While I was looking through these stats, I noticed that Pudge Rodriguez had a .290 OBP this year. I knew he was having a down year, but I didn't realize that it was that down. Just thought that was interesting.)
11 walks.
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 12:51 PM
We should change the thread title to "Juan Pierre, How much can he suck". I'm afraid some Yankee FO people are gonna just look at the thread title and get ideas.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to those people killing Pierre. They think Jacque Jones is better despite the fact his last 2 seasons have been worse than Pierre's "bad" season of 2005. Those same people also think adding a 35 year-old Brian Giles is a good move for an old team. People still haven't proven how Pierre's speed is on the decline. Using OPS for a player who isn't a power hitter doesn't prove a thing.
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 12:55 PM
He also plays better CF and hits better. And won't cost us prospects.
How is he a better hitter? Jones' BA and OBP the past 2 seasons were lower than Pierre's bad year of 2005. If Jones was such a great CF, why did the Twins play the immortal LEW FORD so much in CF after Torii Hunter's injury?
I wouldn't pay too much attention to those people killing Pierre. They think Jacque Jones is better despite the fact his last 2 seasons have been worse than Pierre's "bad" season of 2005. Those same people also think adding a 35 year-old Brian Giles is a good move for an old team. People still haven't proven how Pierre's speed is on the decline. Using OPS for a player who isn't a power hitter doesn't prove a thing.
I'm one of the people killing Pierre because he's vastly overrated. People want an older Giles because his skills (OBP) doesn't decline with age while Pierre's skill(speed) has already shown signs of decline. Giles and Jones are the better option by a LOT for the next two years over Pierre for the next five.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 12:56 PM
I wouldn't pay too much attention to those people killing Pierre. They think Jacque Jones is better despite the fact his last 2 seasons have been worse than Pierre's "bad" season of 2005. Those same people also think adding a 35 year-old Brian Giles is a good move for an old team. People still haven't proven how Pierre's speed is on the decline. Using OPS for a player who isn't a power hitter doesn't prove a thing.
Someone please reply to this. I don't feel like repeating what we've been talking about for the past 7 pgaes of the thread.
Jimmykey2, did you read anything in this thread before posting that? BTW, 50% of OPS is on base percentage. If you have a crappy OPS, chances are either your OBP or your SLG sucks. In Pierre's case it is both.
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 12:57 PM
I wouldn't pay too much attention to those people killing Pierre. They think Jacque Jones is better despite the fact his last 2 seasons have been worse than Pierre's "bad" season of 2005. Those same people also think adding a 35 year-old Brian Giles is a good move for an old team. People still haven't proven how Pierre's speed is on the decline. Using OPS for a player who isn't a power hitter doesn't prove a thing.
Ah, so the metrics showing Pierre to be the worst defensive CF in baseball, the fact his OBP is terrible for a guy that has no pop whatsoever, and the fact he battled leg injuries all years equals exactly what the Yankees need?
Sounds like the new math.
I don't want Juan Pierre on this team. But I have a feeling Steinbrenner and the Tampa crew is gonna get him. :(
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 12:59 PM
I wouldn't pay too much attention to those people killing Pierre. They think Jacque Jones is better despite the fact his last 2 seasons have been worse than Pierre's "bad" season of 2005. Those same people also think adding a 35 year-old Brian Giles is a good move for an old team. People still haven't proven how Pierre's speed is on the decline. Using OPS for a player who isn't a power hitter doesn't prove a thing.
He also doesn't get on base, or play CF well. EqA, which includes baserunning, still has Jones ranked the better player for their careers, and every individual season except 2004, which was probably a career year for Pierre. Juan Pierre isn't "immune" to OPS. He is a poor on-base guy with no power, and his speed will decline as he approaches 30. Short of timing his 40 yard dash, how would you recommend that I "prove" his speed is declining? Pretty much every player slows down as they reach 30. Pierre typically got about 50+ infield hits a year, and this year got only 31. Predictably, he had a terrible season. You seem to be convinced that he will get that number back up to the mid-50's. Because that is what it will take to make him an adequate (not a good) hitter again.
Soriambi
10-12-05, 12:59 PM
I wouldn't pay too much attention to those people killing Pierre. They think Jacque Jones is better despite the fact his last 2 seasons have been worse than Pierre's "bad" season of 2005. Those same people also think adding a 35 year-old Brian Giles is a good move for an old team. People still haven't proven how Pierre's speed is on the decline. Using OPS for a player who isn't a power hitter doesn't prove a thing.
Just for the record, I don't really want Jacque Jones, either. I do, however, want Brian Giles very much.
I don't want Juan Pierre on this team. But I have a feeling Steinbrenner and the Tampa crew is gonna get him. :(
The Tampa morons running the team is the equivalent to having redsox fans running the team.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:00 PM
I've changed my focus to the potential acquisitions of Aaron Rowand or Vernon Wells for CF, at the cost of Gary Sheffield.
I've changed my focus to the potential acquisitions of Aaron Rowand or Vernon Wells for CF, at the cost of Gary Sheffield.
You really think that's possible?
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 01:02 PM
I'm one of the people killing Pierre because he's vastly overrated. People want an older Giles because his skills (OBP) doesn't decline with age while Pierre's skill(speed) has already shown signs of decline. Giles and Jones are the better option by a LOT for the next two years over Pierre for the next five.
I seriously doubt the Yanks would have to sign Pierre to a 5 year deal. As far as Giles' OBP, when did players getting on base become a problem with the Yanks... a problem that needed a 35 year-old player to address it? The Yankees get on base as well as any team in baseball. The key is finding players who can drive those guys in. I just don't want a 35 year-old OF. Jacque Jones doesn't meet any of the criteria for hitting that anyone wants. The guy hasn't broken .320 in OBP in 2 years!
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 01:03 PM
I seriously doubt the Yanks would have to sign Pierre to a 5 year deal. As far as Giles' OBP, when did players getting on base become a problem with the Yanks... a problem that needed a 35 year-old player to address it? The Yankees get on base as well as any team in baseball. The key is finding players who can drive those guys in. I just don't want a 35 year-old OF. Jacque Jones doesn't meet any of the criteria for hitting that anyone wants. The guy hasn't broken .320 in OBP in 2 years!
Brian Giles production is the equivalent of Manny Ramirez. He'll do just fine for a couple of years.
I seriously doubt the Yanks would have to sign Pierre to a 5 year deal. As far as Giles' OBP, when did players getting on base become a problem with the Yanks... a problem that needed a 35 year-old player to address it? The Yankees get on base as well as any team in baseball. The key is finding players who can drive those guys in. I just don't want a 35 year-old OF. Jacque Jones doesn't meet any of the criteria for hitting that anyone wants. The guy hasn't broken .320 in OBP in 2 years!
For the last time Giles, Matusi, Jones (with Sheff as DH)> Pierre, Matusi, Sheffield. Defensively and offensively. Its not even close.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:05 PM
I seriously doubt the Yanks would have to sign Pierre to a 5 year deal.
It would cost more than Jones, which is likely a 2 year deal.
As far as Giles' OBP, when did players getting on base become a problem with the Yanks... a problem that needed a 35 year-old player to address it?
We had several holes in our lineup that could be filled with a very good hitter in Giles. OBP is important. So we want people who are good at getting on base.
The Yankees get on base as well as any team in baseball. The key is finding players who can drive those guys in. I just don't want a 35 year-old OF. Jacque Jones doesn't meet any of the criteria for hitting that anyone wants. The guy hasn't broken .320 in OBP in 2 years!
Giles is also good at driving runners in. Jones is good enough at it. Pierre, however, is terrible.
SINCE77 2
10-12-05, 01:06 PM
I seriously doubt the Yanks would have to sign Pierre to a 5 year deal. As far as Giles' OBP, when did players getting on base become a problem with the Yanks... a problem that needed a 35 year-old player to address it? The Yankees get on base as well as any team in baseball. The key is finding players who can drive those guys in. I just don't want a 35 year-old OF. Jacque Jones doesn't meet any of the criteria for hitting that anyone wants. The guy hasn't broken .320 in OBP in 2 years!
Pierre is not a FA, ergo he will cost prospects. Jones just cost money and could probably be made to take a 2 year deal allowing the Yankees to groom their own CF, which imo is the way things should be. I do however agree with you about Giles.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:06 PM
Brian Giles production is the equivalent of Manny Ramirez. He'll do just fine for a couple of years.
Giles is a great hitter, but this is pushing it.
I seriously doubt the Yanks would have to sign Pierre to a 5 year deal. As far as Giles' OBP, when did players getting on base become a problem with the Yanks... a problem that needed a 35 year-old player to address it? The Yankees get on base as well as any team in baseball. The key is finding players who can drive those guys in. I just don't want a 35 year-old OF. Jacque Jones doesn't meet any of the criteria for hitting that anyone wants. The guy hasn't broken .320 in OBP in 2 years!
AMEN!!(not that pierre can drive in runs, but anyhow Jim is 100% correct on this)
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 01:07 PM
Giles is a great hitter, but this is pushing it.
Look at the adjusted OPS stats. He's right there with Manny. He plays half his home games in an extreme pitcher's park.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 01:08 PM
The key is finding players who can drive those guys in. I just don't want a 35 year-old OF. Jacque Jones doesn't meet any of the criteria for hitting that anyone wants
I agree that Jacque Jones should not ever be anywhere near a Yankee uniform.
I also agree that the Yankees need someone who can drive in guys who got on base. Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Hideki Matsui, Gary Sheffield, and Jorge Posada are on the team already. The Yanks got bounced in the first round because they left 40 men on base. Who can the Yanks pick up that are better than the 5 guys I just mentioned?
prcyankee
10-12-05, 01:08 PM
Nothing is going to happen until after the WS and probably the winter meetings as well. We do NOT need to be trading away our ML talent for older or questionable stop-gap solutions. I PRAY the Yankee FO will be smart and evaluate the FA talent as it would fit into our needs.
Look twice, if not a dozen times at any posibliity of type of trade and act accordingly. Whats to say that the talent we now possess won't rise to the challenge and become the answer we seek? Is it not possible for Crosby to improve both defensively and offensively? and if I remember correctly, as of last week he is still a young prospect. We obviously need to address CF and middle BP.
As of right now everyone who is still with us goes to camp, gets evaluated there, and gets weeded out as necessary.
Nothing is going to happen until after the WS and probably the winter meetings as well. We do NOT need to be trading away our ML talent for older or questionable stop-gap solutions. I PRAY the Yankee FO will be smart and evaluate the FA talent as it would fit into our needs.
Look twice, if not a dozen times at any posibliity of type of trade and act accordingly. Whats to say that the talent we now possess won't rise to the challenge and become the answer we seek? Is it not possible for Crosby to improve both defensively and offensively? and if I remember correctly, as of last week he is still a young prospect. We obviously need to address CF and middle BP.
As of right now everyone who is still with us goes to camp, gets evaluated there, and gets weeded out as necessary.
Who told you Crosby was young or a prospect?
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:10 PM
Look at the adjusted OPS stats. He's right there with Manny. He plays half his home games in an extreme pitcher's park.
Its comparable, but Ramirez is definitely a better hitter.
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 01:11 PM
Apparently, quite a few of you disagree with me on how this team should be built. I'm just not in favor of adding 35 year-old OFs to the team. This team's problem isn't hitting. It's never been hitting. Jacque Jones shouldn't even be considered to be a starter on this team. His offensive numbers have tanked 2 years in a row. Plus, he doesn't remind anyone of Torii Hunter.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:11 PM
Nothing is going to happen until after the WS and probably the winter meetings as well. We do NOT need to be trading away our ML talent for older or questionable stop-gap solutions. I PRAY the Yankee FO will be smart and evaluate the FA talent as it would fit into our needs.
Look twice, if not a dozen times at any posibliity of type of trade and act accordingly. Whats to say that the talent we now possess won't rise to the challenge and become the answer we seek? Is it not possible for Crosby to improve both defensively and offensively? and if I remember correctly, as of last week he is still a young prospect. We obviously need to address CF and middle BP.
As of right now everyone who is still with us goes to camp, gets evaluated there, and gets weeded out as necessary.
As of last week, Crosby was 29 years old. He is definitely NOT a prospect.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 01:12 PM
Its comparable, but Ramirez is definitely a better hitter.
Give me a second here...
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 01:13 PM
Apparently, quite a few of you disagree with me on how this team should be built. I'm just not in favor of adding 35 year-old OFs to the team. This team's problem isn't hitting. It's never been hitting. Jacque Jones shouldn't even be considered to be a starter on this team. His offensive numbers have tanked 2 years in a row. Plus, he doesn't remind anyone of Torii Hunter.
I don't really see anybody touting Jacque Jones except to say he's a better overall player than Pierre. I want to stay far away from both guys.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:13 PM
Apparently, quite a few of you disagree with me on how this team should be built. I'm just not in favor of adding 35 year-old OFs to the team. This team's problem isn't hitting. It's never been hitting. Jacque Jones shouldn't even be considered to be a starter on this team. His offensive numbers have tanked 2 years in a row. Plus, he doesn't remind anyone of Torii Hunter.
And yet you want to add Pierre, who is a worse hitter and fielder than Jones.
What I want to do is trade Sheffield for Vernon Wells or a package of Aaron Rowand and Neil Cotts, and sign Giles. Giles, replaces Sheffield's bat and age, and we get a top youngish CFer for the next several years. Trading anything of value for an unproductive nothing like Juan Pierre is insane. I'd rather sign Jones than do that.
SINCE77 2
10-12-05, 01:16 PM
Nothing is going to happen until after the WS and probably the winter meetings as well. We do NOT need to be trading away our ML talent for older or questionable stop-gap solutions. I PRAY the Yankee FO will be smart and evaluate the FA talent as it would fit into our needs.
Look twice, if not a dozen times at any posibliity of type of trade and act accordingly. Whats to say that the talent we now possess won't rise to the challenge and become the answer we seek? Is it not possible for Crosby to improve both defensively and offensively? and if I remember correctly, as of last week he is still a young prospect. We obviously need to address CF and middle BP.
As of right now everyone who is still with us goes to camp, gets evaluated there, and gets weeded out as necessary.
Crosby imo is not the answer. If the Yankees were seeking a reclamation project, then the better choice is Corey Patterson (Cubs) who can probably be gotten on the cheap. I'd send Patterson down to Tampa to rework his stroke with Donnie and hope for the best.
In light of Jimmy's comments.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/12/s...ll/12chass.html
Yankees Are Running in Place Behind Mets
By MURRAY CHASS
Published: October 12, 2005
IN the end, the Mets had a better season than the Yankees. Yes, the Yankees won yet another division championship and the Mets only tied for third place in their division, but the Mets still had a better season.
That assessment will not make George Steinbrenner happy, but why should he be unhappy about what I think when he has been made miserably unhappy by the people he pays exorbitantly to win? They're the ones who are responsible for yet another postseason failure. I only watched.
Steinbrenner, the Yankees' principal owner, was characterized yesterday as being "very, very disappointed," as well he should be, considering he paid those guys $203 million (and that doesn't include Manager Joe Torre's $6 million salary) and got one round of the playoffs for his money.
The Yankees are slipping into the Atlanta Braves' world. The Braves have won 14 consecutive division championships, the best streak ever, but only one World Series. The Yankees have won eight division titles in a row, the second-best streak ever, with four World Series championships but none in the last five years.
Both teams were knocked out of the postseason in the first round this year, but the comparison of the teams ends there. The Yankees were supposed to finish in first place and did, but they clinched their expected spot on the next-to-last day of the season.
The next day, the Red Sox finished the season with the same 95-67 record the Yankees had, but the Yankees were awarded first place because they had won the season series between the teams.
The Braves, on the other hand, won in a tougher division (all five National League East teams finished .500 or better) and won with a vast assortment of rookies in key roles. The Yankees had one rookie, Robinson Cano. Not that the Yankees have the minor league talent to stock their team with rookies, but would they have edged the Red Sox with an array of rookies?
The Braves played with the 12th-highest payroll in the major leagues, $75 million. Quick, class. How many times does 75 go into 203?
Manager Bobby Cox did not have a lineup of cleanup hitters, as other teams have described the Yankees. When the Braves sustained injuries, they didn't fill the holes by acquiring players and their contracts from other teams. They called up another rookie, whom Cox inserted into the lineup and watched produce.
The best part of the Yankees' season was the work of the pitchers who replaced their injured starters. No one expected Aaron Small, Shawn Chacon and Chin-Mien Wang to pitch as well as they did. They, not Randy Johnson or Mike Mussina, saved the Yankees' season.
Steinbrenner disappointed? He has a right to be. He paid Johnson and Mussina a combined $34 million, and they pitched a combined five and two-thirds innings in Games 3 and 5 of the division series. The Angels won both games. Steinbrenner paid Alex Rodriguez $20.7 million. He batted .133 (2 for 15) and didn't drive in a run.
Before the final game of the division series, Torre was asked to compare this team with the teams that won the World Series.
"We had a different type of lineup," he said. "We had more of the type of lineup probably that the Angels have, where guys aren't known for their power. We have more of a power-laden ball club now than we had in those years.
"When you get to postseason play, it's not how far you hit it; it's how often you hit it."
The Yankees hit .253 in the series, the Angels .275.
When the Angels dumped the Yankees in the division series in 2002, they amassed 56 hits in four games; their hitters were relentless.
After Game 5 of this series, Mussina, who gave up a 2-0 lead and five runs in two and two-thirds innings, talked about how the Angels got to him by doing "small stuff."
"Small stuff wins games a lot of times in the postseason," he said.
If the Yankees aren't capable of playing that type of game, maybe they should find some players who can generate playoff-winning baseball. There must be room in that $203 million payroll for such players. But Steinbrenner needs his fix of All-Stars. He went awry in the early 1980's, stocking the team with multiple stars at the same positions, and maybe he has done it again.
Or perhaps Torre has to challenge himself and figure out how to manufacture runs with his existing lineup rather than sitting back and waiting for his power hitters to unload.
Steinbrenner willing, Brian Cashman or his replacement as general manager could make his off-season priority the acquisition of an Angels-type hitter or two. Cashman's contract expires at the end of the month. At the moment, his return seems to be more up to him than to Steinbrenner.
As much speculation as there will be about Torre, who is owed $13.2 million for two more years, Steinbrenner hasn't made any noise internally about firing him. But then, the Yankees' playoff body is barely cold.
The Yankees won half a dozen fewer regular-season games than they did last year, fewer than 100 for the first time in four years, and they didn't advance as far in the postseason. The Mets won a dozen more games than they did last year and finished one place higher. They have more work to do to become a playoff team next year; a lot of work, in fact.
But the Mets can feel better about their season, and they can feel good knowing they are headed in the right direction. The Yankees are running in place, and it's not the place the team or Steinbrenner wants to be.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:20 PM
Murray Chass proves again that he's a moron. What a horrendous article.
IntangiblesRule
10-12-05, 01:21 PM
Murray Chass is a well known fool. His entire article is a foolish premise winning the division is always a better season than finishing in third place and fading from the playoff race down the stretch.
Juan Pierre is a horrible CF worse than 37 year old Bernie. He does one thing well, he runs fast. That's it. He brings nothing else to the table. The numbers are right there in front of you.
ryanm1058123
10-12-05, 01:22 PM
Murray Chass is a moron, but I really don't think thats news.
Or you kill two birds with one stone by trading for Brad Wilkerson who plays CF and 1B and plays both position very well. Sorry, I'm on a Brad Wilkerson kick right now.
Although he had a mediocer(sp) year i believe that he will be a star player, not a superstar but a very good player. He fits the Yankee style of play.
Murray Chass is a well known fool. His entire article is a foolish premise winning the division is always a better season than finishing in third place and fading from the playoff race down the stretch.
Juan Pierre is a horrible CF worse than 37 year old Bernie. He does one thing well, he runs fast. That's it. He brings nothing else to the table. The numbers are right there in front of you.
Yeah, I agree with you there. He did definetly say some bone head things, however what was on the money was his assesment of the lineup and the hitting. We need more that just OBP guys and sluggers!
Murray Chass is an embarrassment.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 01:25 PM
In light of Jimmy's comments.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/12/s...ll/12chass.html
Yankees Are Running in Place Behind Mets
By MURRAY CHASS
Published: October 12, 2005
.
Disgruntled Mets fan -> Murray Chase :soapbox:
:-n00b-: :-banned-:
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 01:25 PM
And yet you want to add Pierre, who is a worse hitter and fielder than Jones.
What I want to do is trade Sheffield for Vernon Wells or a package of Aaron Rowand and Neil Cotts, and sign Giles. Giles, replaces Sheffield's bat and age, and we get a top youngish CFer for the next several years. Trading anything of value for an unproductive nothing like Juan Pierre is insane. I'd rather sign Jones than do that.
BASED ON WHAT ARE YOU CALLING HIM A BETTER HITTER? Slugging percentage and extra base hits? Nothing else even remotely qualifies you making a statement like that. Jacque Jones is a TERRIBLE offensive baseball player. He's also over 30 years old. Is Johnny Damon an unproductive nothing? The money he will make in free agency is going to say no. Pierre's career offensive stats are equal in EVERY statistic to Damon with the exception of power/slugging.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:26 PM
Yeah, I agree with you there. He did definetly say some bone head things, however what was on the money was his assesment of the lineup and the hitting. We need more that just OBP guys and sluggers!
What do you think we need? Guys who don't get on base or hit for power, like Juan Pierre?
prcyankee
10-12-05, 01:27 PM
Who told you Crosby was young or a prospect?
Maybe prospect is a strech. :o
He's only 29. Showed he has good range in CF, but no experience. The collision showed that as well as when he lets Matsui and Sheff call him off at times. But the potential to improve is there. His offensive production will seal his fate. Im just sayin maybe we don't need Jones or Pierre or Giles or Wilkerson or Joe Centerfielder. Maybe the answer is already here. We just got to allow it to happen. :-cents-:
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:29 PM
BASED ON WHAT ARE YOU CALLING HIM A BETTER HITTER? Slugging percentage and extra base hits? Nothing else even remotely qualifies you making a statement like that. Jacque Jones is a TERRIBLE offensive baseball player. He's also over 30 years old. Is Johnny Damon an unproductive nothing? The money he will make in free agency is going to say no. Pierre's career offensive stats are equal in EVERY statistic to Damon with the exception of power/slugging.
EqA and OPS+ say that Jones is the better offensive player. And, as I've said, EqA includes baserunning. Damon has a career EqA of .277, Jones' is .268, Pierre's is .258. Damon is going to get overpaid based on his last two years. The three years before that, he was really nothing special offensively. And now that his defense is below average, I personally have zero interest in him.
NelsonMuntz
10-12-05, 01:30 PM
Look at the adjusted OPS stats. He's right there with Manny. He plays half his home games in an extreme pitcher's park.
Not Quite:
Giles OPS+
2003: 148
2004: 126
2005: 148
Ramirez OPS+
2003: 160
2004: 152
2005: 156
Still, Giles would be silly in our lineup.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 01:31 PM
BASED ON WHAT ARE YOU CALLING HIM A BETTER HITTER? Slugging percentage and extra base hits? Nothing else even remotely qualifies you making a statement like that. Jacque Jones is a TERRIBLE offensive baseball player. He's also over 30 years old. Is Johnny Damon an unproductive nothing? The money he will make in free agency is going to say no. Pierre's career offensive stats are equal in EVERY statistic to Damon with the exception of power/slugging.
From what I've seen in recent(past 10 years) of player signings, the criteria for judging a player when signing them to a big contract has more to do with PERCEPTION and the market than actual performance.
See: Derek Jeter's contract
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:31 PM
Maybe prospect is a strech. :o
He's only 29. Showed he has good range in CF, but no experience. The collision showed that as well as when he lets Matsui and Sheff call him off at times. But the potential to improve is there. His offensive production will seal his fate. Im just sayin maybe we don't need Jones or Pierre or Giles or Wilkerson or Joe Centerfielder. Maybe the answer is already here. We just got to allow it to happen. :-cents-:
Crosby has been playing minor league baseball for some time, and has done nothing to indicate that he would ever be a productive major leaguer. He cannot hit major league pitching, and no one has ever learned to do so at 30 years old. Bubba Crosby is absolutely not the answer, and after 30, he is much more likely to decline than improve.
SINCE77 2
10-12-05, 01:32 PM
What do you think we need? Guys who don't get on base or hit for power, like Juan Pierre?
Actually I think Blaze means guys like Jorge Cantu/ Julio Lugo/ Toby Hall . Guys who don't walk much, but are difficult to strikeout and use the entire field to their advantage. Basically linedrive/gap type hitters of the hardnose variety.
wileedog
10-12-05, 01:39 PM
Actually I think Blaze means guys like Jorge Cantu/ Julio Lugo/ Toby Hall . Guys who don't walk much, but are difficult to strikeout and use the entire field to their advantage. Basically linedrive/gap type hitters of the hardnose variety.
Cano could develop into that type of guy.
SINCE77 2
10-12-05, 01:41 PM
Cano could develop into that type of guy.
I think he is well on his way. Now all we need is a CF with similar characteristics.
NelsonMuntz
10-12-05, 01:45 PM
Although he had a mediocer(sp) year i believe that he will be a star player, not a superstar but a very good player. He fits the Yankee style of play.
Hey, we got another Yankee fan on the Wilkerson bandwagon. A career 111 OPS+ hitter who plays solid D, both at CF and 1B. He'd be a perfect fit. He did have a down year but he was playing with a wrist injury for most of the season. He also played his home games at the abyss that is RFK stadium. I think every player in the Nationals lineup saw their offensive numbers decline this season due to the park factor.
SINCE77 2
10-12-05, 01:48 PM
Hey, we got another Yankee fan on the Wilkerson bandwagon. A career 111 OPS+ hitter who plays solid D, both at CF and 1B. He'd be a perfect fit. He did have a down year but he was playing with a wrist injury for most of the season. He also played his home games at the abyss that is RFK stadium. I think every player in the Nationals lineup saw their offensive numbers decline this season due to the park factor.
Be even better to grab Wilkerson and NJ so that we can DH Giambi.
I Love Wang
10-12-05, 01:49 PM
Be even better to grab Wilkerson and NJ so that we can DH Giambi.
Giambi hits poorly at DH.
Nick Johnson is their best hitter, and, likely unavailable. They seem to want to re-sign Preston Wilson, which would leave Wilkerson w/o a position.
[QUOTE=I Love Wang]Giambi hits poorly at DH.
QUOTE]
Giambi better start learn how to hit better while he is a DH because he is horrible in the field. Plus his knees won't allow him to play most of his games in the field.
SINCE77 2
10-12-05, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=I Love Wang]Giambi hits poorly at DH.
QUOTE]
Giambi better start learn how to hit better while he is a DH because he is horrible in the field. Plus his knees won't allow him to play most of his games in the field.
exactly.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 02:06 PM
By the way- I have a very unsettling feeling that Giles ends up in Boston.
"From Petco to Fenway, the formidable journey of the criminally underrated lefty"
Frankly there are two outfielders in the majors that I don't want to become Sox : Giles and Dunn.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 02:09 PM
I still say Pierre!! Pierre!! Pierre!! I always loved Giles but he's older and we still need more speed on this team. I know figgins didn't hit but figgins was like the biggest threat on that team. Who didn't hold their breath everytime he lead off an inning? Why? Why did we hold our breath? Because we knew the distraction he could cause on the basepaths. The Yankees don't have anyone that creates that same sense of angst against opposing pitchers.
Pierre talks in 2005 = Milton talks in 2004.
People just don't realize how much this guy is going to suck very soon.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 02:11 PM
This is based solely on offensive numbers- nothing about defensive contributions:
Manny Giles
’99 OPS+ 174 157
’00 OPS+ 185 158
’01 OPS+ 162 153
’02 OPS+ 190 173
’03 OPS+ 160 148
’04 OPS+ 152 126
’05 OPS+ 156 148
’99 VORP 70.7 73.5 (CF)
’00 VORP 74.3 80.9 (CF)
’01 VORP 66.6 74.2 (LF)
’02 VORP 74.3 81.6 (LF)
’03 VORP 69.0 49.9 (LF)
’04 VORP 68.6 50.8 (RF)
’05 VORP 68.6 65.1 (RF)
Giles actually had the 4th most Win Shares (which factor in defense) in baseball last year, ahead of both Manny AND Ortiz.
He'll be a steal for whomever it is that signs him.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 02:12 PM
"From Petco to Fenway, the formidable journey of the criminally underrated lefty"
Frankly there are two outfielders in the majors that I don't want to become Sox : Giles and Dunn.
I told you my nightmare from last night...
SINCE77 2
10-12-05, 02:16 PM
"From Petco to Fenway, the formidable journey of the criminally underrated lefty"
Frankly there are two outfielders in the majors that I don't want to become Sox : Giles and Dunn.
The Sox can have Dunn for all I care.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 02:17 PM
The Sox can have Dunn for all I care.
Dunn in Fenway - :scared:
Trust me, you do not want this.
ICEBERG18
10-12-05, 02:22 PM
This is based solely on offensive numbers- nothing about defensive contributions:
Manny Giles
’99 OPS+ 174 157
’00 OPS+ 185 158
’01 OPS+ 162 153
’02 OPS+ 190 173
’03 OPS+ 160 148
’04 OPS+ 152 126
’05 OPS+ 156 148
’99 VORP 70.7 73.5 (CF)
’00 VORP 74.3 80.9 (CF)
’01 VORP 66.6 74.2 (LF)
’02 VORP 74.3 81.6 (LF)
’03 VORP 69.0 49.9 (LF)
’04 VORP 68.6 50.8 (RF)
’05 VORP 68.6 65.1 (RF)
Giles actually had the 4th most Win Shares (which factor in defense) in baseball last year, ahead of both Manny AND Ortiz.
He'll be a steal for whomever it is that signs him.
It better be us, or im going to have a mental breakdown.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 02:24 PM
People still haven't proven how Pierre's speed is on the decline. Using OPS for a player who isn't a power hitter doesn't prove a thing.
So you would advocate playing Womack everyday, and at leadoff.
I mean, his speed is not declining, and his OPS doesn't matter
chanman7483
10-12-05, 02:28 PM
BTW, if 200 million worth of "sluggers" to drive guys in isn't going to do the job, the Yanks have bigger problems than we all think.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 02:32 PM
Giles is a great hitter, but this is pushing it.
Career OPS+
Manny : 156
Giles : 146
Career EqA
Manny : .320
Giles : .320
2005 EqA
Manny : .329
Giles : .326
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 02:37 PM
Not Quite:
Giles OPS+
2003: 148
2004: 126
2005: 148
Ramirez OPS+
2003: 160
2004: 152
2005: 156
Still, Giles would be silly in our lineup.
He's basically Manny-lite, with baserunning abilities, adequate fielding, and will probably cost something like 12 Mill per less than Ramirez.
It's not the defense route, it's not the youth route, it's not the "speed" route, but when all is said and done, and all FA options evaluated, it's still the better route.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 02:38 PM
BTW, if 200 million worth of "sluggers" to drive guys in isn't going to do the job, the Yanks have bigger problems than we all think.
Ah, but its NOT $200 million of sluggers.
Around $50 million of that was Brown, Mussina, Pavano and Wright.
And salary is really irrelevant when discussing production. Not that it isn't important, but it doesn't have a role when analyzing the run creation capabilities of an offense.
yanksphan
10-12-05, 02:39 PM
Giles was on the radio here this morning in San Diego (AM1090) and said he would VERY much like to return to San Diego - it's up to Sandy Alderson and Kevin Towers to make it happen.
Sorry to burst the Giles love-fest, but I have a feeling he stays in SD. He was born and raised here, has a bad-ass house on the ocean, and loves playing for the Padres.
We'll see though...money talks.
[QUOTE=Little Big Sheff]He's basically Manny-lite, with baserunning abilities, adequate fielding, and will probably cost something like 12 Mill per less than Ramirez.
IQUOTE]
Plus you won't have to worry about all of Manny's Moments like him cutting off the cut off man.
flymick24
10-12-05, 02:40 PM
Giles was on the radio here this morning in San Diego (AM1090) and said he would VERY much like to return to San Diego - it's up to Sandy Alderson and Kevin Towers to make it happen.
Sorry to burst the Giles love-fest, but I have a feeling he stays in SD. He was born and raised here, has a bad-ass house on the ocean, and loves playing for the Padres.
We'll see though...money talks.
he has also said that he would like to stay in the NL.
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 02:41 PM
The Sox can have Dunn for all I care.
I know your opinions about this type of players, but you wouldn't believe how much damage Dunn could make in Fenway, in front of Ortiz. Trust me on that one.
wileedog
10-12-05, 02:45 PM
he has also said that he would like to stay in the NL.
And rumors he'd like to play in Atlanta with his brother, though he'd have to take substantially less money to do so.
i really don't think we get him here with a 2 year deal with an option. I think it will minimally take 3 years with a 4th, or possibly even 4 guaranteed. At that point he becomes a whole lot less appealing.
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 02:49 PM
Giles was on the radio here this morning in San Diego (AM1090) and said he would VERY much like to return to San Diego - it's up to Sandy Alderson and Kevin Towers to make it happen.
Sorry to burst the Giles love-fest, but I have a feeling he stays in SD. He was born and raised here, has a bad-ass house on the ocean, and loves playing for the Padres.
We'll see though...money talks.
Yeah- he seems like the Kotsay type.
If the Yanks can't get him, I would like to make sure that he doesn't end up with their division rivals...
yanksphan
10-12-05, 02:54 PM
Yeah- he seems like the Kotsay type.
If the Yanks can't get him, I would like to make sure that he doesn't end up with their division rivals...
Fire up the van Kev...
Snatch Catch
10-12-05, 03:02 PM
Fire up the van Kev...
Get the cholrophy...uh...chloroFORM ready...
yanksphan
10-12-05, 03:06 PM
Get the cholrophy...uh...chloroFORM ready...
:lol: - hell get em both ready - he's a big guy!
I know your opinions about this type of players, but you wouldn't believe how much damage Dunn could make in Fenway, in front of Ortiz. Trust me on that one.
Bring it on. Adam Dunn would be much more effective AHEAD of Ortiz than behind him. But that would be bad for Ortiz.
Dunn can be pitched to. He K's like nobody else, and he hits for a generally low average. Tons of power and good patience. But that's fine. If he sits behind Ortiz, he'll have his moment and opportunities....but it won't be like Manny. Not even close.
I love OPS, think it's a fabulous tool. but with a guy like Dunn, it is misleading a bit.
jimmykey2
10-12-05, 03:09 PM
So you would advocate playing Womack everyday, and at leadoff.
I mean, his speed is not declining, and his OPS doesn't matter
Let's talk about Pierre seriously. Only twice in his career was Tony Womack's OBP HIGHER than Pierre's career low posted in 2005. If you looked at Womack's numbers, you could see it was a terrible move signing him to be a leadoff hitter. Pierre has finsihed top 10 in hits 4 separate times and just 2 years ago was top 10 in times on base. Despite pronouncements to the contrary, Juan Pierre is not a bad player. He had a bad season last year by his standards.
It's hilarious! This must be like the 5th Pierre thread since last July before the trade deadline. And each Pierre thread is more heated then the last, LOL. I predict we'll have atleast 3 or 4 more Pierre threads. :D
Shaun4013
10-12-05, 03:37 PM
Wow by the looks of things it looks like I am one of the few who actually want Pierre.
prcyankee
10-12-05, 03:39 PM
Crosby has been playing minor league baseball for some time, and has done nothing to indicate that he would ever be a productive major leaguer. He cannot hit major league pitching, and no one has ever learned to do so at 30 years old. Bubba Crosby is absolutely not the answer, and after 30, he is much more likely to decline than improve.
AND
I Love Wang:
"What I want to do is trade Sheffield for Vernon Wells or a package of Aaron Rowand and Neil Cotts, and sign Giles. Giles, replaces Sheffield's bat and age, and we get a top youngish CFer for the next several years. Trading anything of value for an unproductive nothing like Juan Pierre is insane. I'd rather sign Jones than do that."
First of all, let me say this: I don't know the answer nor do I pretend to. My stand is to just wait till after the winter meetings and see from there.
Seems to me that Pierre and Jones are pretty much No Go's. Trading Sheffield for Wells seems like changing a $5 bill for 5 ones. Basically the same thing in different form. Shef for Rowand and Cotts, same deal, only when you walk away it feels like you've just dealt with a short change artist. Wells and Rowand are only 10 and 9 years younger than Shef and not the threat he is or was. Now Wilkerson may be good defensively but he only played CF 16 times this season and his track record shows he plays less and less CF each year and his offensive numbers are the lowest of the three. Cotts is nothing to crow about, just another pitcher, the jury is still out on him. Are there any top youngish CF out there to be gotten? And at what price to our farm system? After reading all this I feel we are back where we started: Bernie, Crosby, and Matsui platooning in CF depending on who's hot and who's not. Trade winds say Giles is leaning to the west coast and we may end up in a bidding war for him anyway. Then there's that age thing again (he's 34). Thats alot of ifs and maybees to address a problem we may be able to fix at home. But back to my first sentence: I don't know the answer nor do I pretent to. I say we take a long, hard, look before we act. :-2cents-: :NY: :NY:
Little Big Sheff
10-12-05, 03:41 PM
Bring it on. Adam Dunn would be much more effective AHEAD of Ortiz than behind him. But that would be bad for Ortiz.
Dunn can be pitched to. He K's like nobody else, and he hits for a generally low average. Tons of power and good patience. But that's fine. If he sits behind Ortiz, he'll have his moment and opportunities....but it won't be like Manny. Not even close.
I love OPS, think it's a fabulous tool. but with a guy like Dunn, it is misleading a bit.
He would bat in front of Ortiz.
.400 OBP, followed by the elite slugger of the AL.
Wow by the looks of things it looks like I am one of the few who actually want Pierre.
No way! I want Pierre too!! :D
I seriously doubt the Yanks would have to sign Pierre to a 5 year deal. As far as Giles' OBP, when did players getting on base become a problem with the Yanks... a problem that needed a 35 year-old player to address it? The Yankees get on base as well as any team in baseball. The key is finding players who can drive those guys in. I just don't want a 35 year-old OF. Jacque Jones doesn't meet any of the criteria for hitting that anyone wants. The guy hasn't broken .320 in OBP in 2 years!
Giles and RISP
3 HRs 62 RBIs .360 BA .478 OBP 38 BB (174 Plate Appearances)
Giles and RISP 2 outs
0 HR 24 RBIs .379 BA .532 OBP 19BB (77 Plate Appearances)
His numbers this year were off the charts. If you look at his averages for 2002-2004 they are still very good with .306BA for both and .432 .483 OBP, respectively.
I'll take him in a flash, despite his age for a 2, maybe 3 year contract.
Giles and RISP
3 HRs 62 RBIs .360 BA .478 OBP 38 BB (174 Plate Appearances)
Giles and RISP 2 outs
0 HR 24 RBIs .379 BA .532 OBP 19BB (77 Plate Appearances)
His numbers this year were off the charts. If you look at his averages for 2002-2004 they are still very good with .306BA for both and .432 .483 OBP, respectively.
I'll take him in a flash, despite his age for a 2, maybe 3 year contract.
I think we all mostly agree on what the Yanks need although we've all got different ideas on how that's achieved. Flat out we need people that can hit and drive in runs, not just sluggers. The question is what will the FO do? I just get this weird feeling that we'll end up with another slugger type hitter. Who knows, maybe next season Griffey JR is playing CF. Lately there really doesn't seem to be a premeditated strategy for aquiring people for the lineup. it's like they hope Jeter or Cano will get on base and hopefully one of the other 7 guys will knock him/them in on a homer. So it's essentially 2 batters and 7 cleanup hitters. Lucky for us that Matsui isn't another pure slugger, eventhough when they signed him you know that's what they were going for.
If Giles is saying that he wants to stay in San Diego, then he'll probably stay there. It's not like he has any trade value to the Padres, as he's a FA... so why wouldn't they try to sign one of their better players so they can continue to compete in the horrible NL West. If he leaves, he'll take a pay cut to play with his brother in Atlanta. He would be a nice fit to the lineup... however, I really don't see it happening.
If the Nats are really trying to dump Wilkerson, maybe we could get him for next to nothing. The K numbers aren't great (147), but they're actually DOWN from the previous three years, and a line of .248/.351/.405 is nothing to write home about (though compared to avg, the OBP number isn't terrible.). He was also injured a lot... and strangely hit better against LHP than RHP, despite being a lefty.
As for Jones, he had a higher SLG, but lower OBP and similar avg. (.249/.319/.438). He also had fewer strikeouts and had two seasons (2002 and 2003) at .300 (though all OBP numbers are worse than the past year of Wilkerson's). He's also 2 years older. He played significantly better vs. RHP than LHP (only .201). The positive is that he's a FA and would only cost money and (hopefully) low draft picks.
For all of Juan Pierre's bad .OBP, in a terrible season, it was actually better than Jones'.... however, his BA was better and SLG was worse. He hits better both during the day and on turf (which makes sense due to the speed factor) and also hit better vs. LHP. He's a career .305 hitter who had a terrible season (also due to injuries), but may be more expensive than Wilkerson and is probably worse defensively.
Lastly, there's the scrap heap hopefully cheap Juan Encarnacion. I know he was brought up midseason to "he's terrible" (which I agree with). He also had what might appeared to be a "career year" with Free Agency in mind (.287/.349/.447 were all above his career averages). Should be looked at as a possible bench player, although he'd probably rather start on a really crappy team.
I'm not going to include Jay Payton because he had a weird season (Boston to Oakland and being a part time player) -- but he's should be taken a look at if only for defense. If Torii Hunter is going to cost Cano (which he probably will), forget it. Cameron would also likely cost Cano and also had a career threatening injury.
From the looks of it, Wilkerson could possibly be had in a Chacon-esque deal (for some reason I thought he was younger or had a slightly better season than he did -- I think I watched too much of the Nationals earlier rather than later), but if they asked too much, I'd go with Payton and lastly Jones.
chanman7483
10-12-05, 06:49 PM
The question is what will the FO do? I just get this weird feeling that we'll end up with another slugger type hitter. Who knows, maybe next season Griffey JR is playing CF. .
If your predicition comes true, I will light myself on fire.
NYDCYankee
10-12-05, 06:51 PM
The Braves, on the other hand, won in a tougher division (all five National League East teams finished .500 or better) and won with a vast assortment of rookies in key roles. The Yankees had one rookie, Robinson Cano. Not that the Yankees have the minor league talent to stock their team with rookies, but would they have edged the Red Sox with an array of rookies?
This is my favorite part of the article...looks like Mr. Chass forgot that Wang was a rookie.
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 07:28 PM
Wow by the looks of things it looks like I am one of the few who actually want Pierre.
I'm with you.
Ghost of Thurman
10-12-05, 07:34 PM
AND
I Love Wang:
"Trading Sheffield for Wells seems like changing a $5 bill for 5 ones. Basically the same thing in different form.
That's a deal I'd do if I were the Yankees in a millesecond. I love Sheff, but I have no idea why the Blue Jays would even consider this deal.
George Steinbrenner
10-12-05, 07:52 PM
Please no Juan Pierre!!!
Vote yes on Juan Pierre!
I will never go away Im George f--kin Steinbrenner.
AMYanks
10-12-05, 08:54 PM
The more stats I see concerning Giles, the more I want him, and the more upset I will be if he decides to stay put in San Diego.
MassNYYfan
10-12-05, 09:26 PM
The more stats I see concerning Giles, the more I want him, and the more upset I will be if he decides to stay put in San Diego.
I'm in the same boat. Home from work today and I think I pulled up his stats about 50 times. :lol:
rightfielder21
10-12-05, 09:29 PM
Just Say No!
Agreed, great av!
27IsNext
10-12-05, 10:19 PM
Just Say No!
I feel like I'm in fifth grade with the cop teaching D.A.R.E. to us...
AMYanks
10-12-05, 10:35 PM
Just Say No!
Look at the avatar folks, it will steer you in the right direction!
Little Big Sheff
10-13-05, 04:55 AM
I'm in the same boat. Home from work today and I think I pulled up his stats about 50 times. :lol:
The more stats I see concerning Giles, the more I want him, and the more upset I will be if he decides to stay put in San Diego.
I am telling you : we are convincing the world! We are convincing the world !!!
* Little Big Sheff presses the repeat button *
64 strikeouts
119 walks
Players with a higher OPS+ than him in the NL :
Lee, Pujols, Delgado, Cabrera.
Players with a higher EqA (takes into account baserunning) in the majors :
ARod, Lee, Hafner, Giambi, Pujols, Ortiz, Guerrero, Winn (240 PA only), Delgado, Manny, Bay.
Giles basically has the same (if not better) plate discipline than Jason Giambi.
Yankees1962
10-13-05, 04:59 AM
I like to see the Yankees sign Giles, put Sheffield at DH and play Bubba in CF. I think Crosby can hit around .270 and play a good enough CF while batting 9th. For those that think the bottom third of our lineup is weak with Cano, Posada and Crosby, just look at the teams left in the playoffs and evaluate their bottom third of their order.
I Love Wang
10-13-05, 08:15 AM
I like to see the Yankees sign Giles, put Sheffield at DH and play Bubba in CF. I think Crosby can hit around .270 and play a good enough CF while batting 9th. For those that think the bottom third of our lineup is weak with Cano, Posada and Crosby, just look at the teams left in the playoffs and evaluate their bottom third of their order.
Why do you think Crosby would be able to hit .270? Would he walk at all? Or hit for any power?
Crosby does not have the necessary skills to be an everyday player. NOW is the time to resolve the CF situation, and giving the job to a mediocre career minor leaguer is ludicrous. He'd probably hit about .240/.280/.340 in a full season, and that is an unacceptable drain on a lineup.
I would rather have Giles than Pierre
Scary times in Yankeeville. Stick and Cashman in limbo. Torre all alone in the Yankee Dugout. The Tampa Boys possibly gaining even more control.
This offseason could make or break the next 5 years or so.
Aquiring Pierre would be a very bad sign. Very bad. It would be interesting to see the reaction around here if the Yankees went through an extended period of no postseason play.
I'm hopeful, yet afraid of the next 4 months.
Kluivert4Ever
10-13-05, 09:13 AM
Scary times in Yankeeville. Stick and Cashman in limbo. Torre all alone in the Yankee Dugout. The Tampa Boys possibly gaining even more control.
This offseason could make or break the next 5 years or so.
Aquiring Pierre would be a very bad sign. Very bad. It would be interesting to see the reaction around here if the Yankees went through an extended period of no postseason play.
I'm hopeful, yet afraid of the next 4 months.
I agree, If the Tampa fiction gains totall say in baseball operations the foursome of Hughes,Cano,Wang and Duncan are all in the danger of being traded. Which would spell the end for this organisation and put us towards several years of mediocrisity.
I Love Wang
10-13-05, 09:15 AM
Wow by the looks of things it looks like I am one of the few who actually want Pierre.
There's a reason for that.
George Steinbrenner
10-13-05, 04:43 PM
Matsui in CF and Giles in LF and sign Jones for RF and have Sheff DH.
thats still a very weak defensive outfield.
George Steinbrenner
10-13-05, 04:49 PM
NEWSFLASH:
WE NEED A LEADOFF HITTER
Jeter & 8 cleanup hitters does not work in the playoffs.
Pierre in 06 the official campaign (Speed! Defense! Bunt Hits!! You know you want those bunt hits!!)
MassNYYfan
10-13-05, 04:53 PM
(Speed! Defense! Bunt Hits!! You know you want those bunt hits!!)
Sounds like it could be Bubba Crosby.
Snatch Catch
10-13-05, 05:04 PM
NEWSFLASH:
WE NEED A LEADOFF HITTER
Jeter & 8 cleanup hitters does not work in the playoffs.
Pierre in 06 the official campaign (Speed! Defense! Bunt Hits!! You know you want those bunt hits!!)
Look everybody, Big Stein just released another idiotic statement!
Little Big Sheff
10-13-05, 05:27 PM
Look everybody, Big Stein just released another idiotic statement!
Newsflash :
We need a closer.
IntangiblesRule
10-13-05, 07:02 PM
Look everybody, Big Stein just released another idiotic statement!
He needs his calzones for brain food. Where the hell is Costanza!?!
surge511
10-13-05, 08:05 PM
I used to be a big Pierre guy, but his OBP is just not what we need on this team. I guarantee that by May he would be the #9 hitter, with everyone mad at him, just like Lofton and Womack the past 2 years. People would not be happy with his production.
AMYanks
10-13-05, 10:03 PM
He needs his calzones for brain food. Where the hell is Costanza!?!
Big Stein wants an eggplant calzone!!!
apalradio
10-13-05, 10:13 PM
I used to be a big Pierre guy, but his OBP is just not what we need on this team. I guarantee that by May he would be the #9 hitter, with everyone mad at him, just like Lofton and Womack the past 2 years. People would not be happy with his production.
I continue to be high on this guy. First of all, he's only 28 years old, so he's still not in his prime. His lifetime BA is .305, so I can live with his lifetime OBP of .355. It's not spectacular, but for a guy who stole 57 bases last year and is approaching 300 in his career, we can live with that. Defensively, his lifetime fielding percentage exceeds the league average. He can turn into an exciting player for us.
PaulieIsAwesome
10-13-05, 10:55 PM
I continue to be high on this guy. First of all, he's only 28 years old, so he's still not in his prime. His lifetime BA is .305, so I can live with his lifetime OBP of .355. It's not spectacular, but for a guy who stole 57 bases last year and is approaching 300 in his career, we can live with that. Defensively, his lifetime fielding percentage exceeds the league average. He can turn into an exciting player for us.
Building a baseball team is not about excitement. It's about winning.
Juan Pierre is not going to get us that many wins. Not that good an OBP, not that good a SB rate, not that good a defender.
All he's good at is bunt hits, and that's not that good.
I Love Wang
10-13-05, 11:52 PM
I continue to be high on this guy. First of all, he's only 28 years old, so he's still not in his prime. His lifetime BA is .305, so I can live with his lifetime OBP of .355. It's not spectacular, but for a guy who stole 57 bases last year and is approaching 300 in his career, we can live with that. Defensively, his lifetime fielding percentage exceeds the league average. He can turn into an exciting player for us.
A player like Pierre probably peaks at about 25 or 26. He won't be a better player at 30 because he isn't developing skills like plate discipline or power. He's just slowing down, and his below-average defense is going to become awful defense. He's going to be a marginal player within two years. Willie Wilson's career followed the exact same path.
Fielding percentage is a joke of a stat.
jimmykey2
10-14-05, 01:04 AM
A player like Pierre probably peaks at about 25 or 26. He won't be a better player at 30 because he isn't developing skills like plate discipline or power. He's just slowing down, and his below-average defense is going to become awful defense. He's going to be a marginal player within two years. Willie Wilson's career followed the exact same path.
Fielding percentage is a joke of a stat.
HOW IS HE SLOWING DOWN? WHAT ARE YOU BASING THIS ON? Are there any statistics to back this up or is it just your opinion? I realize we've been going back and forth over Pierre this entire thread and I probably won't change your mind. Maybe you could change mine if you based your argument on something other than slugging percentage and a comparison to a KC Royal from 20 years ago. I would trade decent prospects for him, but not top ones. I would offer him a 4-year deal and he shouldn't be expensive. He had a bad year in 2005 after a career season the year before. Why would I think a 27 year-old is dropping off the face of the earth now? If the other options are Jacque Jones (who's slightly better than Matt Lawton although the numbers don't say so), Matsui, or Giles in CF, I'll take Pierre.
I know Giles has wonderful offensive numbers, but what direction are the Yanks going in if they get him? Adding a 35 year-old player and another OPS machine solves what problem the Yanks had this season? I'm more interested in filling needs for this team as opposed to improving strengths.
Although I don't like fielding percentage, I'm also no fan of sabremetric defensive stats. Any stat that says Johnny Damon is a top CF despite the fact guys score from 2nd on sac. flies against him doesn't mean much IMO.
I Love Wang
10-14-05, 01:21 AM
HOW IS HE SLOWING DOWN? WHAT ARE YOU BASING THIS ON? Are there any statistics to back this up or is it just your opinion? I realize we've been going back and forth over Pierre this entire thread and I probably won't change your mind. Maybe you could change mine if you based your argument on something other than slugging percentage and a comparison to a KC Royal from 20 years ago. I would trade decent prospects for him, but not top ones. I would offer him a 4-year deal and he shouldn't be expensive. He had a bad year in 2005 after a career season the year before. Why would I think a 27 year-old is dropping off the face of the earth now? If the other options are Jacque Jones (who's slightly better than Matt Lawton although the numbers don't say so), Matsui, or Giles in CF, I'll take Pierre.
I know Giles has wonderful offensive numbers, but what direction are the Yanks going in if they get him? Adding a 35 year-old player and another OPS machine solves what problem the Yanks had this season? I'm more interested in filling needs for this team as opposed to improving strengths.
Although I don't like fielding percentage, I'm also no fan of sabremetric defensive stats. Any stat that says Johnny Damon is a top CF despite the fact guys score from 2nd on sac. flies against him doesn't mean much IMO.
Pierre is slowing down because thats what people do when they get older.
Pierre does not fill a need. We don't need a bad hitting/bad fielding pinch runner. We already have Womack.
RAA says Johnny Damon is a below average outfielder. The UZR numbers are dated. He used to be good.
I posted this on another thread:
Since he was 24:
EQA:
2002: .234
2003: .272
2004: .276
2005: .256
RAA:
2002: 5
2003: -14
2004: -11
2005: -6
Soriambi
10-14-05, 01:34 AM
I know Giles has wonderful offensive numbers, but what direction are the Yanks going in if they get him? Adding a 35 year-old player and another OPS machine solves what problem the Yanks had this season? I'm more interested in filling needs for this team as opposed to improving strengths.
It would help in two areas:
A.) It would improve our OF defense in two spots, as I believe that Matsui is a better defensive CF than Bernie, and Giles is a better defensive LF than Matsui. Sure, it wouldn't give us a super defensive CF, but there's no one on the market who's that stupendous defensively and who I would be interested in.
B.) It would replace the Yankees hitter who had the lowest OPS in the order of any Yankee regular in 2005 with a tremendous bat.
Giles would strengthen both the offense and defense for us. I believe that Pierre is better than Bernie defensively, but most defensive metrics seem tioindicate that Pierre is below average defensively, so I believe that moving to a player who is above average defensively as a corner OF, and replacing a very poor defensive OF in Bernie with a better OF, even if he's not spectacular, in Matsui, and adding the run production and the far more valuable offense of Giles will win you far more games than adding Pierre.
PaulieIsAwesome
10-14-05, 01:45 AM
HOW IS HE SLOWING DOWN? WHAT ARE YOU BASING THIS ON? Are there any statistics to back this up or is it just your opinion?
...
Although I don't like fielding percentage, I'm also no fan of sabremetric defensive stats. Any stat that says Johnny Damon is a top CF despite the fact guys score from 2nd on sac. flies against him doesn't mean much IMO.
Pierre's Batting Average on Balls In Play in his career:
2000: 0.333
2001: 0.341
2002: 0.314
2003: 0.32
2004: 0.34
2005: 0.293
Lowest in his career, by far. That's below league average, in fact. This from a guy with great bunting skills. His Batting Average on Balls in Play should be much higher than most other players.
Look at other players with Pierre's skill set, and their BABIP last year:
Ichiro: .319, Gathright: .341, Alex Sanchez: .415 on TB, .324 on SF, Podsednik: .340, Figgins: .334, Crawford: .328, Lew Ford: .305, Willy Tavares: .348, Furcal: .310, Rollins: .310, Ray Durham: .310, Eckstein: .306, Jose Reyes: .300.
He was 95th in all of baseball in a stat he should absolutely dominate.
And, as Rich mentions, Damon has fallen in the sabr fielding stats.
Little Big Sheff
10-14-05, 03:15 AM
I can't believe we have a 10 pages thread about Juan Freaking Pierre.
Unbelievable.
IntangiblesRule
10-14-05, 07:02 AM
I can't believe we have a 10 pages thread about Juan Freaking Pierre.
Unbelievable.
He's fast and he bunts!!!
Are you guys aware the Juan Pierre has never struck out more than 52 times in a season! I'm sorry but I'm in awe of that stat.
jorman318
10-14-05, 10:41 AM
Juan Pierre is the best FA out there for the outfield position. He's quick and has a good glove. He struggled this year but I like his speed and age. The other option would be Brian Giles and having Matsui play center. A lot of people have mentioned Mike Cameron and I think he'd be a great fit as well but I'd definitely pass on Johnny Damon. Why substitute a little bit younger no arm outfielder for the one the yanks had? I'm sorry no Johnny, I watched a game this year where Crawford for the Rays tagged up from 2nd and scored on Damon.
ICEBERG18
10-14-05, 10:47 AM
Juan Pierre is the best FA out there for the outfield position. He's quick and has a good glove. He struggled this year but I like his speed and age.
That's like saying Charles Oakley, (Juan Pierre) is the best free agent out there for the Power foward spot when Kevin Garnett, (Giles) is a free agent with him.
Snatch Catch
10-14-05, 10:49 AM
That's like saying Charles Oakley, (Juan Pierre) is the best free agent out there for the Power foward spot when Kevin Garnett, (Giles) is a free agent with him.
But Oakley scowls and throws elbows!
Little Big Sheff
10-14-05, 10:59 AM
Are you guys aware the Juan Pierre has never struck out more than 52 times in a season! I'm sorry but I'm in awe of that stat.
Making contact is fine and all, but actually getting on the base is better.
ICEBERG18
10-14-05, 10:59 AM
But Oakley scowls and throws elbows!
We definitely need to add that dimension to the Yankees. ;)
I'll tell you one guy who's, more than likely, hoping the Yankees sign Juan Pierre...
...Melky Cabrera.
Little Big Sheff
10-14-05, 11:00 AM
That's like saying Charles Oakley, (Juan Pierre) is the best free agent out there for the Power foward spot when Kevin Garnett, (Giles) is a free agent with him.
And with the second pick, the Portland Trailblazers pick .... Sam Bowie.
Little Big Sheff
10-14-05, 11:01 AM
I'll tell you one guy who's, more than likely, hoping the Yankees sign Juan Pierre...
...Melky Cabrera.
:lol:
NCpinstripes
10-14-05, 11:01 AM
Whomever they get, I hope they go with someone who has speed to burn, great defensive skills, and is in their 20's or or around 30. We need someone who can help us out and stay awhile...
Snatch Catch
10-14-05, 11:20 AM
Making contact is fine and all, but actually getting on the base is better.
I bet Pierre and Neifi Perez hang out.
ICEBERG18
10-14-05, 11:23 AM
And with the second pick, the Portland Trailblazers pick .... Sam Bowie.
Ouch....
Little Big Sheff
10-14-05, 11:23 AM
By the way, since Pierre is not a FA, who do people suggest we should send to Florida?
I Love Wang
10-14-05, 11:39 AM
Are you guys aware the Juan Pierre has never struck out more than 52 times in a season! I'm sorry but I'm in awe of that stat.
You're right! We should get him! Also, Aaron Ledesma, because he's never struck out more than fifty-ONE times ina season!
yanksphan
10-14-05, 06:26 PM
another Brian Giles update for the Juan Pierre thread....:wtf:
from Ken Rosenthal (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/4989438)...
Padres left fielder Brian Giles plans to file for free agency, according to his agent, Joe Bick, but the two sides apparently have made progress on a long-term deal.
Giles, 34, would be one of the most attractive hitters available if he hit the open market. Bick, who met with Padres general manager Kevin Towers in San Diego during the final week of the season, says the difference between the sides is "significant" but "not vast." "His preference is to stay there, if the money is right, if they intend to be a competitive team," Bick says.
As a free agent, Giles would be certain to draw interest from the Cubs and probably the Cardinals, who will be looking to replace right fielder Larry Walker.
It is doubtful he would join his younger brother Marcus in Atlanta, given the Braves' financial constraints and their surplus of young corner outfielders.
George Steinbrenner
10-14-05, 07:04 PM
OK OK lets bring this discussion back to Juan Pierre. Giles wants to stay in San Diego and if we did sign him he would play leftfield.
We need a defensive centerfielder and a real leadoff hitter, and Juan Pierre is both. I have yet to read a non sarcastic legitmate case against him. The only arguments thus far are that he will slow down when he gets old (dont we all?), he had a .355 OB%, and he cant handle the pressure of NY. My response is that he is 28, he stole over 50 bases last season, he's got very good range (but a weak arm) in center and is a career .300 hitter. The guy will cause all sorts of problems for opposing pitchers and would ignite this ridiculously lopsided fantasy team lineup.
ICEBERG18
10-14-05, 07:33 PM
We need a defensive centerfielder and a real leadoff hitter,
A real leadoff hitter? I guess Jeter better overcome that Impostor Syndrome, After all, he's not a "real lead off hitter". :dunno:
27IsNext
10-14-05, 07:36 PM
Pierre will slow down very soon (speed players decline in late 20s--Pierre is 28).
His OBP is declining rapidly, and is far too dependent upon his average at this point in his career.
He is not a good defender. He gets poor jumps on fly balls.
He gets thrown out a lot.
Pierre is not the answer.
Stay away from him.
Let the Sox trade for him.
Please, for the love of all that is good in this world, DO NOT TRADE FOR JUAN PIERRE.
jimmykey2
10-14-05, 07:50 PM
Pierre will slow down very soon (speed players decline in late 20s--Pierre is 28).
His OBP is declining rapidly, and is far too dependent upon his average at this point in his career.
He is not a good defender. He gets poor jumps on fly balls.
He gets thrown out a lot.
Pierre is not the answer.
Stay away from him.
Let the Sox trade for him.
Please, for the love of all that is good in this world, DO NOT TRADE FOR JUAN PIERRE.
WHAT?
His OBP was down from last season. That tends to happen when a guy has a bad year. In no way does that mean his OBP is declining rapidly. Based on what do you get the idea that he will slow down soon? He stole 12 more bases in 2005 while improving his SB percentage by 12 points. In 2004, he was top 10 in the NL in times reaching base.
George Steinbrenner
10-14-05, 08:15 PM
WHAT?
In 2004, he was top 10 in the NL in times reaching base.
dont bother, jimmy. Most of this board are Pierre-haters, insistent that he is in decline. His contributions go beyond the numbers. He puts pressure on the pitcher and pressure on the defense when he puts the ball in play (which he always does) He forces errors. He has tough at bats and fouls pitches off left and right. He's a sparkplug that can wake up this team.
Speedy players start to decline during the late 20s--right now, in Pierre's case. That may be what we are seeing as far as his drop in offensive production from this past year.
1.) Pierre is not a "good glove" in CF. I have personally seen him play. He gets a very poor jump on fly balls. His 2004 UZR was like -1 or something btw.
2.) Batting average is a very poor statistic to use in judging offensive value. OBP is the best, followed closely by SLG. Generally, you want the guys who get on base the most at the top of your lineup. As for the leadoff hitter specifically, he needs to get on base A LOT. Pierre's declining OBP skills (which depend largely upon his average at this point in his career) just won't cut it. Also, he gets thrown out quite a bit, negating your "steal a base" arguement.
Jeter is our leadoff man, period. As for Pierre, he is a very poor choice for CF, especially since we have a guy a lot like him, Brett Gardner, in our minor leagues. And Gardner appears to be very good at getting on base, plus he has a slightly better power projection than Juan ever did.
First of all, I dont see 1 bad year as a sign that he is in an unavoidable decline.
1) I have also personally seen him play plenty of times since the 03 WS (I have Extra Innings). I disagree. He doesnt always get a good jump, but his speed allows him to run down the ball. Finally, I dont put any stock into defensive stats. Call me old fashioned. If a guy has a good glove and good range you can see it with your eyes you dont need a stat to tell you. He made plenty of "Web Gems" taking away hits this season.
2) You are right and wrong. Batting average is an overated stat for most players, Ill give you that. OB% and SLG (OPS) is the best indicator of a great power hitter.
BUT...when you are consistently hitting for a .300 average (every year except 05) and you are a great contact hitter (watch his atbats, he constantly fouls the ball off until he can put it in play) this somewhat negates the need to draw 100 walks. In an ideal world, yes he would walk more. In a typical season, he'll hit around .300 with a .365-.370 OB% But he puts together good atbats and rarely strikes out.
Finally, this argument that his stolen base % means he is slowing down is nonsense. For example, in 2001 at the innocent age of 24 in Colorado, he stole 46 bases and was thrown out 17 times. Fast forward to 2005, now at the ripe old age of 28 he stole 57 bases and was again thrown out 17 times. Has he gotten faster since 2001? No. Has he gotten slower since 2001? No. He has attracted a lot more attention from pitchers and catchers since 2003 when he lead the league in steals with 65 and lead the Marlins to the Championship.
Soriambi
10-14-05, 08:39 PM
OK OK lets bring this discussion back to Juan Pierre. Giles wants to stay in San Diego and if we did sign him he would play leftfield.
We need a defensive centerfielder and a real leadoff hitter, and Juan Pierre is both. I have yet to read a non sarcastic legitmate case against him. The only arguments thus far are that he will slow down when he gets old (dont we all?), he had a .355 OB%, and he cant handle the pressure of NY. My response is that he is 28, he stole over 50 bases last season, he's got very good range (but a weak arm) in center and is a career .300 hitter. The guy will cause all sorts of problems for opposing pitchers and would ignite this ridiculously lopsided fantasy team lineup.
How is Derek Jeter not a "real" leadoff hitter? Do you think that Pierre is a better leadoff hitter than Jeter? As for defense, I agree that you can tell a lot about defense from the naked eye in most cases, as long as you're wary of the fact that some guys get worse jumps and make easy plays look spectacular....IF you watch every single one of that team's games, or close to every one. If not, I think that defensive metrics are the best way of determining how strong a player is defensively, and all of Pierre's defensive metrics have him as a below average CF.
The combination of Giles and Matsui in LF and CF would make this team a lot better than Matsui and Pierre. I don't even think it's close.
"The only arguments thus far are that he will slow down when he gets old (dont we all?), "
Yes, we all do. I don't see how that's defending that point. As Giles slows down more and more (as, at the age of 34, he surely has already) he'll still have his eye and his hitting ability (at least for the next few years). Pierre will have nothing when he loses his speed, even a little bit.
"He has an OBP of .355"
Actually, it was just over .320 this year. It's .355 for his career, which isn't bad, but the fact that it's so larely dependent on his speed is a cause for major concern. He's a .300 hitter on his career, but if he slows down due to age or injury and loses half of his IF hits, it would drop to around .250-.260 with no power whatsoever, not much of a batting eye, and less SB. He would be an extremely unwise investment, whether there is a player like Giles on the market or not.
George Steinbrenner
10-14-05, 08:43 PM
one more thing to add about the OB% factor
In 1998, the "dream team" season that began the 3 consecutive World Series Championships, our leadoff man was Chuck Knoblauch. His #s?
.265 avg, .361 Ob%, 31 steals.
1999 (his best season)
.292 avg, .393 Ob%, 28 steals
2000
.283 avg, .366 Ob%, 15 steals
Now Im not saying Knobby was why we won the 3 championships. Of course the stellar rotation and Rivera were the main reasons.
But is it merely a coincidence that in 1998 a gritty, contact hitter shows up and magically the offense clicked? His OB% was also dependent on his average, but he had tough, drawn out atbats and ran once he got on base.
George Steinbrenner
10-14-05, 08:53 PM
How is Derek Jeter not a "real" leadoff hitter? Do you think that Pierre is a better leadoff hitter than Jeter? As for defense, I agree that you can tell a lot about defense from the naked eye in most cases, as long as you're wary of the fact that some guys get worse jumps and make easy plays look spectacular....IF you watch every single one of that team's games, or close to every one. If not, I think that defensive metrics are the best way of determining how strong a player is defensively, and all of Pierre's defensive metrics have him as a below average CF.
The combination of Giles and Matsui in LF and CF would make this team a lot better than Matsui and Pierre. I don't even think it's close.
"The only arguments thus far are that he will slow down when he gets old (dont we all?), "
Yes, we all do. I don't see how that's defending that point. As Giles slows down more and more (as, at the age of 34, he surely has already) he'll still have his eye and his hitting ability (at least for the next few years). Pierre will have nothing when he loses his speed, even a little bit.
"He has an OBP of .355"
Actually, it was just over .320 this year. It's .355 for his career, which isn't bad, but the fact that it's so larely dependent on his speed is a cause for major concern. He's a .300 hitter on his career, but if he slows down due to age or injury and loses half of his IF hits, it would drop to around .250-.260 with no power whatsoever, not much of a batting eye, and less SB. He would be an extremely unwise investment, whether there is a player like Giles on the market or not.
Jeter is not a "real" leadoff hitter because he's at his best when he's allowed to be agressive at the plate. Yes, he can hit 1st in the order, put up his standard yearly numbers and run the bases excellently. But hes better suited as a #2 hitter in my opinon. He gets more fastballs, he will always move the runner over, and he just can swing at the first pitch more often, which usually leads to good things for him.
Obviously, a tandem of Giles and Matsui is better offensively than Pierre and Matsui, but (a) I hear Giles wants to finish his career in San Diego (b) Im thinking the bigger priority right now is to improve the outfield defense rather than add another bopper.
As for Pierre having nothing left when he loses his speed, you are correct. He will be out of the league when he doesnt have the speed to chase down those flyballs and to swipe 50 bags. Im not advocating signing him to a 7 year big $ contract! What I am telling you is his speed has not declined ONE BIT and will not decline drastically in the next few years. He is just as fast now as he was in 2003. Pitchers and catchers are paying a lot more attention to him now and thats why his steals % is down, not some abrubt physical collapse.
27IsNext
10-14-05, 08:55 PM
What I am telling you is his speed has not declined ONE BIT and will not decline drastically in the next few years.
History disagrees with you.
Soriambi
10-14-05, 08:59 PM
one more thing to add about the OB% factor
But is it merely a coincidence that in 1998 a gritty, contact hitter shows up and magically the offense clicked? His OB% was also dependent on his average, but he had tough, drawn out atbats and ran once he got on base.
In 1998, Knoblauch saw 4.09 pitches per PA. That would have been in the top 20 in MLB in 2005. Pierre saw 3.69 P/PA in 2005, which stood at 89th. His career P/PA is 3.42. Knoblauch's OBP and SLG%s in 1998 were higher than Pierre's were in 2005, and Knoblauch's OBP and SLG% in 1998 was higher than Pierre's career OBP and SLG%. In addition, Knoblauch showed some power in 1998 with 17 homers. I think that Pierre and Knoblauch are two very different players, and that Knoblauch was better at just about everything in 1998 than Pierre is not, other than running fast and stealing bases.
George Steinbrenner
10-14-05, 09:03 PM
History disagrees with you.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO scaaaaaary. In 3 years he will slow down drastically and become a 25-30 steal player. but for the next couple seasons he'll be a 40-50 threat count on it.
George Steinbrenner
10-14-05, 09:12 PM
In 1998, Knoblauch say 4.09 pitches per PA. That would have been in the top 20 in MLB in 2005. Pierre saw 3.69 P/PA in 2005, which stood at 89th. His career P/PA is 3.42. Knoblauch's OBP and SLG%s in 1998 were higher than Pierre's were in 2005, and Knoblauch's OBP and SLG% in 1998 was higher than Pierre's career OBP and SLG%. In addition, Knoblauch showed some power in 1998 with 17 homers. I think that Pierre and Knoblauch are two very different players, and that Knoblauch was better at just about everything in 1998 than Pierre is not, other than running fast and stealing bases.
dammit time flies when youre addicted to arguing baseball with strangers.
To me SLG% and power hitting is not a consideration for the leadoff spot. Thats all gravy.
Of course Knoby's OB% will dwarf Pierre's 2005 numbers, he had an off year. Next year he will be back to his customary .300 range and his numbers will be comparable with Knoblauchs, with slightly lower on base % but doube the stolen base potential.
I agree Knoblauch was a better player in his prime. Knoblauch was a little more patient and usually took his walks, whereas Pierre is basically up there fouling balls off until he gets a pitch he likes and can smack the ball into the ground and beat it out. But they are similar in that they are both contact hitters who make the pitcher work and who rarely strikeout.
Soriambi
10-14-05, 09:14 PM
Jeter is not a "real" leadoff hitter because he's at his best when he's allowed to be agressive at the plate. Yes, he can hit 1st in the order, put up his standard yearly numbers and run the bases excellently. But hes better suited as a #2 hitter in my opinon. He gets more fastballs, he will always move the runner over, and he just can swing at the first pitch more often, which usually leads to good things for him.
Jeter as a #1 hitter: 1830 AB, .317 BA, .390 OBP, .472 SLG, .862 OPS, 54 HR (HR per 33.88 AB)
Jeter as a #2 hitter: 3462 AB, .313 BA, .386 OBP, .465 SLG, .851 OPS, 100 HR (HR per 34.62 AB)
I just don't see how the numbers indicate that. They seem just about equal to me, and, if anything, a slight bit better as a leadoff man. It doesn't seem that batting leadoff makes him less aggressive, as he hits HRs at a greater rate as a leadoff man and gets extra base hits at a greater rate as a leadoff man. His career P/PA is 3.76, and in 2005 it was 3.82, which is a negligible difference, like the other #1 vs #2 stats. (Though, again, they're almost identical, but there's nothing there that suggests to me that it really changes his approach a significant amount at ALL to lead off.
George Steinbrenner
10-14-05, 09:27 PM
Jeter as a #1 hitter: 1830 AB, .317 BA, .390 OBP, .472 SLG, .862 OPS, 54 HR (HR per 33.88 AB)
Jeter as a #2 hitter: 3462 AB, .313 BA, .386 OBP, .465 SLG, .851 OPS, 100 HR (HR per 34.62 AB)
I just don't see how the numbers indicate that. They seem just about equal to me, and, if anything, a slight bit better as a leadoff man. It doesn't seem that batting leadoff makes him less aggressive, as he hits HRs at a greater rate as a leadoff man and gets extra base hits at a greater rate as a leadoff man. His career P/PA is 3.76, and in 2005 it was 3.82, which is a negligible difference, like the other #1 vs #2 stats. (Though, again, they're almost identical, but there's nothing there that suggests to me that it really changes his apprach a significant amount at ALL to lead off.
The numbers dont indicate it. Maybe its just me, but I prefer him as the #2 hitter. Like I said, he can play the leadoff role with out a problem because hes such a great player. I guess its just a personal preference to see him in the 2 spot.
I Love Wang
10-14-05, 10:23 PM
dont bother, jimmy. Most of this board are Pierre-haters, insistent that he is in decline. His contributions go beyond the numbers. He puts pressure on the pitcher and pressure on the defense when he puts the ball in play (which he always does) He forces errors. He has tough at bats and fouls pitches off left and right. He's a sparkplug that can wake up this team.
First of all, I dont see 1 bad year as a sign that he is in an unavoidable decline.
1) I have also personally seen him play plenty of times since the 03 WS (I have Extra Innings). I disagree. He doesnt always get a good jump, but his speed allows him to run down the ball. Finally, I dont put any stock into defensive stats. Call me old fashioned. If a guy has a good glove and good range you can see it with your eyes you dont need a stat to tell you. He made plenty of "Web Gems" taking away hits this season.
2) You are right and wrong. Batting average is an overated stat for most players, Ill give you that. OB% and SLG (OPS) is the best indicator of a great power hitter.
BUT...when you are consistently hitting for a .300 average (every year except 05) and you are a great contact hitter (watch his atbats, he constantly fouls the ball off until he can put it in play) this somewhat negates the need to draw 100 walks. In an ideal world, yes he would walk more. In a typical season, he'll hit around .300 with a .365-.370 OB% But he puts together good atbats and rarely strikes out.
Finally, this argument that his stolen base % means he is slowing down is nonsense. For example, in 2001 at the innocent age of 24 in Colorado, he stole 46 bases and was thrown out 17 times. Fast forward to 2005, now at the ripe old age of 28 he stole 57 bases and was again thrown out 17 times. Has he gotten faster since 2001? No. Has he gotten slower since 2001? No. He has attracted a lot more attention from pitchers and catchers since 2003 when he lead the league in steals with 65 and lead the Marlins to the Championship.
No matter how many times you say its not true, Pierre is a bad outfielder. He is 28 runs below average for his career. And he has a horrendous arm.
You are insane if you think Chuck Knoblauch OBP was average dependant. His isoPD was about 100 in his first two (read: only good) seasons with the Yankees. Pierre's has been around 50 the last two years. Incidentally, Knoblauch's speed fell off a cliff in his age 29 season. He would have become a totally useless player if his game was based entirely on it. Knoblauch also had decent power. Pierre's game is based entirely on his speed. He will have elite speed maybe one or two more years, if that. His ability to run his way on base was WAY down this year, and his average and OBP with it.
I Love Wang
10-14-05, 10:24 PM
The numbers dont indicate it. Maybe its just me, but I prefer him as the #2 hitter. Like I said, he can play the leadoff role with out a problem because hes such a great player. I guess its just a personal preference to see him in the 2 spot.
Your personal preferences are arbitrary and silly. Jeter gets on base and runs well. He is a perfect leadoff hitter.
apalradio
10-15-05, 08:14 AM
I don't understand the argument I see here with some regularity that speed players like Pierre peak in their mid twenties and are in decline by their late twenties. I looked at the top 100 stolen base leaders in the game, and no one fits that profile. Lou Brock, for example, stole 118 bases at the ripe old age of 35! Maury Wills swiped 52 at that age. Even a marginal player like Otis Nixon posted 42 at that age, and went on to steal 226 more bases over the next five years. I think Pierre, especially at his still young age, is a good risk and brings a different dimension to this team that it has lacked for a long time.
Snatch Catch
10-15-05, 08:28 AM
I don't understand the argument I see here with some regularity that speed players like Pierre peak in their mid twenties and are in decline by their late twenties. I looked at the top 100 stolen base leaders in the game, and no one fits that profile. Lou Brock, for example, stole 118 bases at the ripe old age of 35! Maury Wills swiped 52 at that age. Even a marginal player like Otis Nixon posted 42 at that age, and went on to steal 226 more bases over the next five years. I think Pierre, especially at his still young age, is a good risk and brings a different dimension to this team that it has lacked for a long time.
Lou Brock? You mean Hall Of Famer Lou Brock?
Wills also got caught twenty-one times that year.
Otis Nixon doesn't count because coke will make you very fast for very long srtetches.
The loss of speed is not so much reflected in their steal totals. Its shown more in:
1) Decrease in OBP and BA due to an inability to beat out hits they used to.
2) Decrease of range in the OF.
3) If the SB totals don't fall off that much, the CS will certainly increase.
The great basestealers aren't just fast, they are skillful at picking up signs and reading pithers. That skill doesn't really erode, but it is evident in other parts of their game. Especially when dealing with one dimensional players like Pierre.
I don't want Pierre.
Pierre = Womack 2
I don't want Pierre.
Pierre = Womack 2
No he isnt, i'm so sick of this comparison. Womack is a career .270 hitter and hes a 2B. Pierre is a .300 hitter who and a Center fielder. Oh and 8 years younger. He is at least a better/younger version of Womack, which is exactly what this offense needs.
IntangiblesRule
10-15-05, 02:54 PM
No he isnt, i'm so sick of this comparison. Womack is a career .270 hitter and hes a 2B. Pierre is a .300 hitter who and a Center fielder. Oh and 8 years younger. He is at least a better/younger version of Womack, which is exactly what this offense needs.
One is a BAD CFer the other is a bad second baseman. The only real difference between the two is Pierre has had a better batting average. Their walk rates are horrifyingly similar.
Last year Pierre was pretty much a normal career year for Tony Womack.
He's just what we need if you want another bad fielding, fast guy who isn't very good.
Wade_Taylor
10-15-05, 03:07 PM
One is a BAD CFer the other is a bad second baseman. The only real difference between the two is Pierre has had a better batting average. Their walk rates are horrifyingly similar.
Last year Pierre was pretty much a normal career year for Tony Womack.
He's just what we need if you want another bad fielding, fast guy who isn't very good.
Not only that but if you compare his stats with Jeter's only once last year did his OBP top Jeter's. This past year Pierre had a .329 OBP and he is average in CF and does not posses as good throwing arm.
One is a BAD CFer the other is a bad second baseman. The only real difference between the two is Pierre has had a better batting average. Their walk rates are horrifyingly similar.
Last year Pierre was pretty much a normal career year for Tony Womack.
He's just what we need if you want another bad fielding, fast guy who isn't very good.
Pierre isnt bad in center, he has a bad arm, but his range is better than avg. His zone rating is better than Johnny Damon's and is the same as Carlos Beltran. He isnt as bad as some of you people think he is. Marlin fans actually say this guy is a good outfielder and he has a lot of ground to cover in Dolphins stadium in florida.
Just a look at some players and their zone rating
Jeremy Reed .943
Aaron Rowand .939
Jim Edmonds .888
Carlos Beltran .887
Juan Pierre .882
Johnny Damon .874
Andruw Jones .873
Bernie Williams .862
Pierre isnt bad in center, he has a bad arm, but his range is better than avg. His zone rating is better than Johnny Damon's and is the same as Carlos Beltran. He isnt as bad as some of you people think he is. Marlin fans actually say this guy is a good outfielder and he has a lot of ground to cover in Dolphins stadium in florida.
Just a look at some players and their zone rating
Jeremy Reed .943
Aaron Rowand .939
Jim Edmonds .888
Carlos Beltran .887
Juan Pierre .882
Johnny Damon .874
Andruw Jones .873
Bernie Williams .862
Does anyone have the real UZR for 2004 for Centerfielders? I don't think I can believe anything that says Beltran, Pierre, and Edmonds has a better zone rating than Andruw Jones.
SINCE77 2
10-15-05, 04:23 PM
Pierre is not a good option to lead off as we have a superior leadoff hitter in Jeter. That being the case, Pierre might be interesting as a #2 hitter with his ability to bunt and potentially avoid DP's with his speed. I still prefer Wilkerson as our #2 hitter/CF over Pierre. Bunts and singles combined with speed is nice, but I like Wilkersons ability to drive the ball into the gap for doubles even better.
b_joseph
10-15-05, 04:26 PM
well considering the our options are rather limited. And Pierre would be an improvemtn over Bernie.
I dont see a problem with having him for a couple years.
well considering the our options are rather limited. And Pierre would be an improvemtn over Bernie.
I dont see a problem with having him for a couple years.
I don't think so.
In this article, Juan Pierre has a RAA (runs above average) of -20 for 2004. Bernie has a RAA of -22.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/measuring-range/
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 04:27 PM
Can people answer that question that has been asked a few times now but always went ignored : who do we send to the Marlins for Pierre?
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 04:29 PM
If we land Pierre, the only upside I see from a fan point of view is when we'll get to see JDPNYY's over/under lines for him.
IntangiblesRule
10-15-05, 04:29 PM
Can people answer that question that has been asked a few times now but always went ignored : who do we send to the Marlins for Pierre?
Joe Girardi. ;)
SINCE77 2
10-15-05, 04:31 PM
Does anyone have the real UZR for 2004 for Centerfielders? I don't think I can believe anything that says Beltran, Pierre, and Edmonds has a better zone rating than Andruw Jones.
Getting good jumps and taking appropriate routes to the ball (Jones) is different from range. Look at it this way, Jeter isn't the fastest in the game on the bases, but he is the best baserunner in the game. Instincts and baseball smarts can makeup for lack of range.
Snatch Catch
10-15-05, 04:31 PM
Pierre might be interesting as a #2 hitter with his ability to bunt and potentially avoid DP's with his speed.
You forgot the "and make a sh*t ton of outs" part.
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 04:33 PM
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO scaaaaaary. In 3 years he will slow down drastically and become a 25-30 steal player. but for the next couple seasons he'll be a 40-50 threat count on it.
I am wondering if his ability to steal first will stay the same going forward.
SINCE77 2
10-15-05, 04:34 PM
You forgot the "and make a sh*t ton of outs" part.
We really can't predict how he would do with the Yankee lineup behind him.
IntangiblesRule
10-15-05, 04:40 PM
We really can't predict how he would do with the Yankee lineup behind him.
It's not like anybody is pitching around him now...
Snatch Catch
10-15-05, 04:41 PM
Does anyone have the real UZR for 2004 for Centerfielders? I don't think I can believe anything that says Beltran, Pierre, and Edmonds has a better zone rating than Andruw Jones.
2004 UZR:
Edmonds: -24
Jones: -2
Snatch Catch
10-15-05, 04:42 PM
We really can't predict how he would do with the Yankee lineup behind him.
Sure we can. It will have minimal, if any, effect on his rates.
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 04:43 PM
dammit time flies when youre addicted to arguing baseball with strangers.
To me SLG% and power hitting is not a consideration for the leadoff spot. Thats all gravy.
Of course Knoby's OB% will dwarf Pierre's 2005 numbers, he had an off year. Next year he will be back to his customary .300 range and his numbers will be comparable with Knoblauchs, with slightly lower on base % but doube the stolen base potential.
I agree Knoblauch was a better player in his prime. Knoblauch was a little more patient and usually took his walks, whereas Pierre is basically up there fouling balls off until he gets a pitch he likes and can smack the ball into the ground and beat it out. But they are similar in that they are both contact hitters who make the pitcher work and who rarely strikeout.
Knoblauch also had an off year in 1998 (or was it the beginning of his sudden decline). He had a much better year in 1999 then irremediably declined.
Actually, Knoblauch is a very good example of what some people are trying to say about Pierre : even though he had an horrible year from a BAvg point of view, he still drew 70 walks (Pierre's career best : 55, and career average : 43) that helped him getting on base at a .361 clip.
Knoblauch was able to add 90-100 points to his batting average to get to his OBP. Pierre's ability in that department is limited to 50 points. When he can't hit, he simply can't get on base either. I am sorry, but that's a recipe for trouble at the top of a lineup.
2004 UZR:
Edmonds: -24
Jones: -2
Andruw Jones went from a +15 (2003) to a -2 (2004). WOW.
When it comes to UZR, trends are more telling that the stats from any given season.
SINCE77 2
10-15-05, 04:49 PM
Sure we can. It will have minimal, if any, effect on his rates.
While I defend Pierre and players of his ilk, I still prefer someone like Wilkerson in CF and batting in the #2 hole. Guys like Jay Peyton and even Gary Matthews Jr. are better options to Pierre.
Snatch Catch
10-15-05, 04:50 PM
Andruw Jones went from a +15 (2003) to a -2 (2004). WOW.
While UZR isn't rock solid year to year, it may serve to support the notion that defense goes with age, beginning quite early on in a player's career.
Jones has not lost his unearthly instincts that aid him in getting superhuman reads and jumps, but he may just not have the speed anymore to get to all those balls that previously would have seen him "robbing" a hitter.
Snatch Catch
10-15-05, 04:50 PM
I still prefer someone like Wilkerson in CF and batting in the #2 hole. Guys like Jay Peyton and even Gary Matthews Jr. are better options to Pierre.
This I will certainly agree with you on.
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 04:52 PM
Over 700 plate appearances, replacing career Jeter (.386 OBP) by career Pierre (.355 OBP) results in 22 less on-base appearances for the Yankees leadoff man; replacing 2005 Jeter (.389) by 2005 Pierre (.326) results in 44 less 'man on' opportunities for the rest of our lineup.
I am sorry, but there is absolutely no basis whatsoever behind the notion that Pierre is a more ideal leadoff hitter than Jeter. It's a ridiculous concept.
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 04:54 PM
We really can't predict how he would do with the Yankee lineup behind him.
He won't become a .380 OBP guy overnight.
Pitchers will just have an easier out right in the heart of the lineup.
Chairman-of-TheBoard
10-15-05, 04:54 PM
I would go after Jaques Jones first, then give Pierre a chance.
I want anyone who can bunt for a base hit whenever he wants to.
Yankee purists will undoubtedly cite the fact that Pierre had his worst season in '05 and that despite whatever positive traits he posesses, he simply isn't the next Williams/Mantle/DiMaggio. For any fans who think the next Yankee CF is going to carry that banner without missing a beat is sadly mistaken.
I like the speed and plate versatility of Jones and Pierre, not to mention their leadoff capabilities. If they can leadoff and take that pressure off of Jeter, both are worth considering.
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 04:58 PM
I like the speed and plate versatility of Jones and Pierre, not to mention their leadoff capabilities. If they can leadoff and take that pressure off of Jeter, both are worth considering.
What do you mean by "plate versatility" and by "leadoff capabilities"?
Chairman-of-TheBoard
10-15-05, 05:00 PM
What do you mean by "plate versatility" and by "leadoff capabilities"?
"Plate versatility" means hitting to opposite fields and bunting. I think "leadoff capabilities" is self-defining.
Galapagos
10-15-05, 05:01 PM
What do you mean by "plate versatility" and by "leadoff capabilities"?
He's "fast" and "fast."
He's "fast" and "fast."
But can he steal 1B?
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 05:09 PM
"Plate versatility" means hitting to opposite fields and bunting. I think "leadoff capabilities" is self-defining.
I'd say Pierre is everything but someone with plate versatility. No walks, no XBH. He is basically a singles hitter. And when he doesn't hit (like this year), he can't get on base since he doesn't have any plate discipline.
What is self-defining? BAvg-heavy OBP? 73% stealing percentage? Below league average hitting abilities?
And sorry to repeat myself, but who do we send to the Marlins?
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 05:11 PM
He's "fast" and "fast."
Sadly, some people's obsession with Speed™ and Things™ will never end.
A lead-off hitter should be this :
Your personal preferences are arbitrary and silly. Jeter gets on base and runs well. He is a perfect leadoff hitter.
... and nothing else.
Snatch Catch
10-15-05, 05:11 PM
"Plate versatility" means hitting to opposite fields and bunting.
Check out Brian Giles' hit chart:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?playerID=114789&statType=1
Tee-hee.
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 05:16 PM
Check out Brian Giles hit chart:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?playerID=114789&statType=1
Tee-hee.
I'd like to print the doubles + flyouts + triples chart, and make a surimpression with the Stadium.
Petco is murder on the lefties. 411, that's absolutely insane !!!
AMYanks
10-15-05, 05:49 PM
Check out Brian Giles' hit chart:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?playerID=114789&statType=1
Tee-hee.
Wow, he lost a lot of HRs there. Would have had a few more at Yankee Stadium :D .
Jeremy Reed .943
Aaron Rowand .939
Jim Edmonds .888
Carlos Beltran .887
Juan Pierre .882
Johnny Damon .874
Andruw Jones .873
Bernie Williams .862
Heres the link..... ESPN.com 2005 ZR for Centerfielders (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?seasonType=2&sortOrder=true&split=84&groupId=9&season=2005&qualified=null&sortColumn=zoneRating)
Snatch Catch
10-15-05, 07:47 PM
I'd like to print the doubles + flyouts + triples chart, and make a surimpression with the Stadium.
I was just taking a look at it, and I'm not sure it would effect the actual data that much.
HOWEVER, if you go back across the years and look at his hitting in Pittsburgh, you can see that he pulled the ball significantly more with the different field configuration.
What this says to me is that he has the ability to adjust like the majority of elite hitters.
All the more reason to bring him aboard.
jimmykey2
10-15-05, 07:51 PM
I don't want Pierre.
Pierre = Womack 2
I've seen this silly statement enough times on this thread. Look up Tony Womack's career numbers before you compare the 2. Womack, based on his career, was a TERRIBLE signing by the Tampa idiots. He NEVER had a good OBP over his entire career and was an old player coming off a career year. Pierre doesn't strike out. Does that sound like Tony Womack? Based on the last 2 years, it's not unreasonable to think Pierre could steal 65 bases at an 80% clip. The Yanks need players who can create. They don't need more players who get to first and STAY at first if no one gets a hit.
I've always liked Jacque Jones, but you can't look at his numbers and say he's a better fit than Pierre. It's just not logical. His BA and OBP have declined the past 2 years, why would anyone think he could get better?
As far as Brian Giles, am I the only one who doesn't like replacing a 37 year-old CF with a 35 year-old OF? I know he has good numbers, but I still don't like it.
I've seen this silly statement enough times on this thread. Look up Tony Womack's career numbers before you compare the 2. Womack, based on his career, was a TERRIBLE signing by the Tampa idiots. He NEVER had a good OBP over his entire career and was an old player coming off a career year. Pierre doesn't strike out. Does that sound like Tony Womack? Based on the last 2 years, it's not unreasonable to think Pierre could steal 65 bases at an 80% clip. The Yanks need players who can create. They don't need more players who get to first and STAY at first if no one gets a hit.
I've always liked Jacque Jones, but you can't look at his numbers and say he's a better fit than Pierre. It's just not logical. His BA and OBP have declined the past 2 years, why would anyone think he could get better?
As far as Brian Giles, am I the only one who doesn't like replacing a 37 year-old CF with a 35 year-old OF? I know he has good numbers, but I still don't like it.
The similarity between Womack and Pierre is that neither are high OBP guys (which is what you want in a leadoff hitter), and their OBP is overly dependent on their AVG. Also, both have a pitiful SLG. Is Pierre a little better, yes, but not nearly enough to make him an attractive option.
Jones is a FA, unlike Pierre. Consequently, no players would have to be sacrificed to acquire him, and he would almost definitely accept a shorter contract, and a reduced role.
Pierre's stats (both offensive and defensive) are declining as well as I posted on this thread.
Signing Giles, who has better stats than Sheff, to a short term contract makes perfect sense.
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 08:08 PM
Based on the last 2 years, it's not unreasonable to think Pierre could steal 65 bases at an 80% clip. The Yanks need players who can create. They don't need more players who get to first and STAY at first if no one gets a hit.
Pierre has stolen 65 bases once in his career and never reached 80% (career average is 73%) so yes, it's unreasonable to think that.
I am all for people who can create, but you have to reach base to create, and reaching base is not Pierre's first ability. And if no one gets a hit, speed or no speed, creative or not, you won't score.
Let's not forget too that Jeter, because of a vastly superior SLG, gets past first now and then (double, homer) without even needing to steal a base (that is, without even risking to make an additional out).
jimmykey2
10-15-05, 08:24 PM
Pierre has stolen 65 bases once in his career and never reached 80% (career average is 73%) so yes, it's unreasonable to think that.
I am all for people who can create, but you have to reach base to create, and reaching base is not Pierre's first ability. And if no one gets a hit, speed or no speed, creative or not, you won't score.
Let's not forget too that Jeter, because of a vastly superior SLG, gets past first now and then (double, homer) without even needing to steal a base (that is, without even risking to make an additional out).
I'm using the same idiotic logic that everyone else uses when saying he's on the decline (AFTER 1 BAD SEASON). Doesn't a player have to have 2 consecutive bad years or be in his mid-30s to be labeled on the decline? Pierre's SB percentage improved by 12% from 2004 to 2005.
My mindset is fixing some of the problems we saw in losing in the playoffs for the 2nd consecutive year. While it improved somewhat this season, this team is still like Billy Beane's late 90s A's. We always seem to have guys on base, but are often left waiting for the 3 run HR. We don't get singles when we need runs. Why can't we create havoc on the basepaths. Why can't we add a player who puts pressure on the infield defense and on the pitcher/catcher? Why not add a player who can steal 2nd, get moved over to 3rd by a Jeter groundball, then score on a medium fly ball by A-Rod (or even a ground ball)? Pierre never strikes out, so hit and runs might occur more often. IMO, we don't need to add players (and waste money) who just improve strengths like power and OBP.
27IsNext
10-15-05, 08:28 PM
We don't need players that get on base?!
Is that you, Bill Emslie?
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 08:29 PM
The effect of stolen bases on Juan Pierre statistics :
The methodology is simple : add a base to his TB number for every SB (slugging goes up) and add an out for every CS (OBP goes down).
Career averages adjusted for speed : .305 / .330 / .453
So basically, Pierre stealing bases brings him as far from home plate (that's what SLG is all about when you think about it) than a non-stealing Jeter. And then you are left with this 60 points difference in OBP adjusted for CS, which means that Jeter manages 42 more opportunities than Pierre to get that same distance from home plate.
Little Big Sheff
10-15-05, 08:30 PM
And again, who do people suggest we send to Fla?
Can someone please answer that question?
And again, who do people suggest we send to Fla?
Can someone please answer that question?
Woemack.
And again, who do people suggest we send to Fla?
Can someone please answer that question?
Pavano
27IsNext
10-15-05, 08:35 PM
Duncan, probably. That would be the most insulting thing in the world...
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