View Full Version : BJ Ryan interested in Yankees / Ryan signs with Toronto
What exact point did you make weeks ago? Furthermore, I don't see the Yankees bumping up Mo's salary, unless, they're going to discuss another contract extension.
That the Yankees wouldn't give Ryan more than Mo without bumping up Mo. It was made after the report that the Mets could offer Wagner $15 million per year for three years.
No extension, more per year.
If we don't get Ryan, as a consolation prize, can we get a real pitching coach?
MiamiKat
11-21-05, 11:25 AM
winning in 1996 was the most gratifying of all the championship bec. of the payroll and few if any big names in the lineup. The point here is there is no guarantee that you will win a championship with the yankees and if he did, he will not have a lot of credits. But the money that he will command in the future if he continues to be a successful closer is far greater than setting up for the yankees.
There are other teams beside detroit the needs a closer. Who knows the red sox may need a closer?
There are no guarantees that Ryan will win a World Series with any team with which he signs. But the Yankees have made the playoffs every year since 1995, and they're looking to be equally competitive again in 2006. Unlike the other teams (Mets, Detroit & Toronto) previously mentioned as his top suitors.
And, if the Yankees pay Ryan closer money now and he's successful in the setup role (which will include some opportunities to close games, BTW), how do you know he won't command just as much in the FA market when his contract is up? There are so many other factors -- namely the quality of other available relievers & wildcard spenders like Minaya -- that affect each year's market that I don't believe you can make a definitive prediction as to future salary.
Furthermore, if Ryan believes that, given equal compensation, closing for the Tigers or the Blue Jays or the Mets is a better career move than apprenticing for the premier closer in MLB in the biggest media market in the country for the team with the biggest brand recognition worldwide, I think he's getting bad advice.
Cashman needs to do whatever he can to convince Ryan that the Yankees are the right team for him. If Ryan then still chooses to go to a smaller-market team (or the Mets), then he simply just didn't want the pressure of playing for the Yankees.
(FWIW, I actually found the 1998 WS victory the most gratifying because it was sheer domination unlike that seen in a long time in MLB. Point being, that's a subjective label.)
The Q Bomb
11-21-05, 06:58 PM
There are no guarantees that Ryan will win a World Series with any team with which he signs. But the Yankees have made the playoffs every year since 1995, and they're looking to be equally competitive again in 2006. Unlike the other teams (Mets, Detroit & Toronto) previously mentioned as his top suitors.
And, if the Yankees pay Ryan closer money now and he's successful in the setup role (which will include some opportunities to close games, BTW), how do you know he won't command just as much in the FA market when his contract is up? There are so many other factors -- namely the quality of other available relievers & wildcard spenders like Minaya -- that affect each year's market that I don't believe you can make a definitive prediction as to future salary.
Furthermore, if Ryan believes that, given equal compensation, closing for the Tigers or the Blue Jays or the Mets is a better career move than apprenticing for the premier closer in MLB in the biggest media market in the country for the team with the biggest brand recognition worldwide, I think he's getting bad advice.
Cashman needs to do whatever he can to convince Ryan that the Yankees are the right team for him. If Ryan then still chooses to go to a smaller-market team (or the Mets), then he simply just didn't want the pressure of playing for the Yankees.
(FWIW, I actually found the 1998 WS victory the most gratifying because it was sheer domination unlike that seen in a long time in MLB. Point being, that's a subjective label.)
Wow - great post; great points. I agree about the '98 Series victory - although 2000 wasn't too shabby either. When I saw Bernie kneel in CF I thought, "Now I can die a happy woman." God, I'm going to miss Bernie!
NewEraYanks2527
11-21-05, 07:55 PM
Great post MiamiKat, really great.
BroadwayBomber55
11-21-05, 08:06 PM
There are no guarantees that Ryan will win a World Series with any team with which he signs. But the Yankees have made the playoffs every year since 1995, and they're looking to be equally competitive again in 2006. Unlike the other teams (Mets, Detroit & Toronto) previously mentioned as his top suitors.
And, if the Yankees pay Ryan closer money now and he's successful in the setup role (which will include some opportunities to close games, BTW), how do you know he won't command just as much in the FA market when his contract is up? There are so many other factors -- namely the quality of other available relievers & wildcard spenders like Minaya -- that affect each year's market that I don't believe you can make a definitive prediction as to future salary.
Furthermore, if Ryan believes that, given equal compensation, closing for the Tigers or the Blue Jays or the Mets is a better career move than apprenticing for the premier closer in MLB in the biggest media market in the country for the team with the biggest brand recognition worldwide, I think he's getting bad advice.
Cashman needs to do whatever he can to convince Ryan that the Yankees are the right team for him. If Ryan then still chooses to go to a smaller-market team (or the Mets), then he simply just didn't want the pressure of playing for the Yankees.
(FWIW, I actually found the 1998 WS victory the most gratifying because it was sheer domination unlike that seen in a long time in MLB. Point being, that's a subjective label.)
110% agreed.
JeffWeaverFan
11-21-05, 08:14 PM
While B.J. Ryan's agent tells the Yankees they're still alive, Ryan's telling folks he wants to close (and he doesn't love Lee Mazzilli.)
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-sphey194519466nov20,0,1212022.column?coll=ny-sports-print
Why the hell did we sign Mazzilli? He was a horrible coach with the Orioles and Ryan doesn't like him. Idiotic move.
flymick24
11-21-05, 08:15 PM
Why the hell did we sign Mazzilli? He was a horrible coach with the Orioles and Ryan doesn't like him. Idiotic move.
i really don't think mazzilli being on the team was a deciding factor... if anything, it's his desire to close
but again, i believe that if yankees offer him enough money, he may be open to setting up again...
JeffWeaverFan
11-21-05, 08:21 PM
i really don't think mazzilli being on the team was a deciding factor... if anything, it's his desire to close
but again, i believe that if yankees offer him enough money, he may be open to setting up again...
The only reason to have signed Mazzilli would be, IMO, if he had a good relationship with Ryan and gave us the inside edge. Mazzilli has done nothing to prove to me that he deserves to be the bench coach.
I agree with your post, I just don't understand why Mazzilli was signed unless he and Ryan got along well.
YankeePride1967
11-21-05, 08:23 PM
The only reason to have signed Mazzilli would be, IMO, if he had a good relationship with Ryan and gave us the inside edge. Mazzilli has done nothing to prove to me that he deserves to be the bench coach.
I agree with your post, I just don't understand why Mazzilli was signed unless he and Ryan got along well.
To me, he hasn't disproven anything either. THe situation in Baltimore was a joke. Not only did he not get to choose any of his coaches, they shoved the guys that Lee beat out for the job down his throat on the staff. Not to mention they had little talent.
JeffWeaverFan
11-21-05, 08:33 PM
To me, he hasn't disproven anything either. THe situation in Baltimore was a joke. Not only did he not get to choose any of his coaches, they shoved the guys that Lee beat out for the job down his throat on the staff. Not to mention they had little talent.
My friend who is an Oriole fan made complaints about Mazzilli that were similar to Torre's weaknesses. That didn't make me feel good when we signed him to be our bench coach.
My friend who is an Oriole fan made complaints about Mazzilli that were similar to Torre's weaknesses. That didn't make me feel good when we signed him to be our bench coach.
Torre never pays any attentio to the bench coach anyway
Dooley Womack
11-21-05, 09:55 PM
I'm sick and tired of the Yankess headlines filled with who doesn't want to come here, who might or might not come here, etc. Give me a headline that shows some creativity on the Yanks part, where they blow us away with a great pickup via a good trade (see Boston) or free agent. Give me the unexpected. Don't tell me who spoke to whom on the phone and who's playing phone tag with whom. Just do something.
Yankee Clipper
11-21-05, 10:18 PM
My friend who is an Oriole fan made complaints about Mazzilli that were similar to Torre's weaknesses. That didn't make me feel good when we signed him to be our bench coach.
So leading that team to first place in the first half of the season is bad? Just because that team came down to earth, doesn't make it Mazzili's fault. They had very little pitching and it caught up to them. But it was Mazzili's choice to make BJ a closer, he let Brian Roberts become an everyday player, etc. He led the O's to a record of 6 games under .500 and they were great for the first half, but pitching and distractions (Palmerio and Sosa) killed this team. Mazzili is better than you think.
ICEBERG18
11-23-05, 07:46 AM
SLIPPING AWAY: B.J. Ryan, a reliever the Yanks are interested in, visited Cleveland yesterday. The Indians, who would use Ryan as their closer, put a picture of Ryan in an Indians' cap on the Jacobs Field scoreboard, according to an Associated Press report. Ryan and his wife also had dinner with Tribe GM Mark Shapiro Monday night, the news service said. The Yankees would want Ryan as a setup man for Mariano Rivera, so he appears to be a longshot for them, though his camp recently called the Yankees to say he was still interested in them, according to a baseball official. Still, Yankee officials believe Ryan would prefer to close elsewhere....
I'm sick and tired of the Yankess headlines filled with who doesn't want to come here, who might or might not come here, etc. Give me a headline that shows some creativity on the Yanks part, where they blow us away with a great pickup via a good trade (see Boston) or free agent. Give me the unexpected. Don't tell me who spoke to whom on the phone and who's playing phone tag with whom. Just do something.
That would be entirely up to the media, which obviously feels they can sell more newspapers by spewing negativity about the Yankees rather than the alternative. Judging by your reaction and many others, they're probably right.
They never get a nickle of my money.
Dooley Womack
11-23-05, 08:15 AM
That would be entirely up to the media, which obviously feels they can sell more newspapers by spewing negativity about the Yankees rather than the alternative. Judging by your reaction and many others, they're probably right.
They never get a nickle of my money.
Look at what's happening cross-town at Shea. That's not necessarily the media drumming anything up, but the fact that more and exciting news is coming from that part of town. I will tell you that I haven't bought the Post or News (physically, I've read it online) in weeks, so they aren't depending on my money.
But yeah, the media DOES like to report the negative, but that seems to be the only thing coming out of the Yank's camp and the players they are supposedly pursuing or suspiciously haven't met yet.
Look at what's happening cross-town at Shea. That's not necessarily the media drumming anything up, but the fact that more and exciting news is coming from that part of town. I will tell you that I haven't bought the Post or News (physically, I've read it online) in weeks, so they aren't depending on my money.
But yeah, the media DOES like to report the negative, but that seems to be the only thing coming out of the Yank's camp and the players they are supposedly pursuing or suspiciously haven't met yet.
At this point in the offseason, it's a lot easier to generate 'positive' news when you are, for example, in the market for a closer and there are guys who want to close on the market. Just like teams wait, players are going to wait to see what happens to a guy like Wagner before they settle on the market.
Look at what's happening cross-town at Shea. That's not necessarily the media drumming anything up, but the fact that more and exciting news is coming from that part of town. I will tell you that I haven't bought the Post or News (physically, I've read it online) in weeks, so they aren't depending on my money.
But yeah, the media DOES like to report the negative, but that seems to be the only thing coming out of the Yank's camp and the players they are supposedly pursuing or suspiciously haven't met yet.
You know Womack, it is impatient fans like you who cause management to make stupid moves and to over pay for free agents to get headlines. It is catering to fans like you that caused the Yankees of the late 80s, and to a lesser extent the last few years, to make mistakes.
You need to relax. The games are not played in the off season. Wait until all the Yankees moves are made. Perhaps we might even have to wait longer until the Yankee payroll can come down more to avoid excessive luxury tax. But as Yankee fans we should be thankful for the great players that we have here.
When you get a little older you will have more patience and have a better time perspective.
YankeePride1967
11-24-05, 07:57 AM
You know Womack, it is impatient fans like you who cause management to make stupid moves and to over pay for free agents to get headlines. It is catering to fans like you that caused the Yankees of the late 80s, and to a lesser extent the last few years, to make mistakes.
You need to relax. The games are not played in the off season. Wait until all the Yankees moves are made. Perhaps we might even have to wait longer until the Yankee payroll can come down more to avoid excessive luxury tax. But as Yankee fans we should be thankful for the great players that we have here.
When you get a little older you will have more patience and have a better time perspective.
I agree. As I indicated in the other tread, panic moves or moves to respond to Boston and moves to address next year at the expense of future years are a piss-poor way to run a team. "Hey, Boston and the Mets made a trade, so let's go out and sign Jarrod Washburn, AJ Burnett and Kevin Millwood to five year deals, that'll show them!" No thanks. And opening day is in April, not November. We need to calm down and see the plan unfold.
You know Womack, it is impatient fans like you who cause management to make stupid moves and to over pay for free agents to get headlines. It is catering to fans like you that caused the Yankees of the late 80s, and to a lesser extent the last few years, to make mistakes.
You need to relax. The games are not played in the off season. Wait until all the Yankees moves are made. Perhaps we might even have to wait longer until the Yankee payroll can come down more to avoid excessive luxury tax. But as Yankee fans we should be thankful for the great players that we have here.
When you get a little older you will have more patience and have a better time perspective.
HA!!! :lol: Rajah, I bet Dooley is older than you. I guarentee it. Also, do you really think that the Yankee organization listens to any of us on how they should pursue their future transactions? Maybe back in the 80's they may have done that but since then I don't think so. If you do or anyone else does then you are blind and they are as well. I for one hope the Yankees make some moves soon before they are left out in the cold but I would not be surprised if this year Cashman gets what he wants and that is to not sign huge superstars and realistically lowers the payroll for his organization. Now, do I really think that is going to happpen? No. Not as long as Steinbrenner is around. This offseason the Yankees may not make huge noise on the FA or trade market but they will make at least one significant deal.
Yankees1962
11-24-05, 09:15 AM
HA!!! :lol: Rajah, I bet Dooley is older than you. I guarentee it. Also, do you really think that the Yankee organization listens to any of us on how they should pursue their future transactions? Maybe back in the 80's they may have done that but since then I don't think so. If you do or anyone else does then you are blind and they are as well. I for one hope the Yankees make some moves soon before they are left out in the cold but I would not be surprised if this year Cashman gets what he wants and that is to not sign huge superstars and realistically lowers the payroll for his organization. Now, do I really think that is going to happpen? No. Not as long as Steinbrenner is around. This offseason the Yankees may not make huge noise on the FA or trade market but they will make at least one significant deal.
I think Steinbrenner is committed (probably with the level-headed help of Swindal) to Cashman, in giving him this off-season to prove his plan that the Yankees can get better results following a well executed course of action drawn up by Cashman.
Archer1979
11-24-05, 09:22 AM
When you get a little older you will have more patience and have a better time perspective.
If he gets any older, he'll have change his name to Methuselah and move to Florida.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 10:26 AM
You know Womack, it is impatient fans like you who cause management to make stupid moves and to over pay for free agents to get headlines. It is catering to fans like you that caused the Yankees of the late 80s, and to a lesser extent the last few years, to make mistakes.
Do you honestly think the team made bad moves while scrambling to avoid pissing off a guy on a message board? The team made bad moves because George was impatient and irrational. Not because Dooley is.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-24-05, 10:31 AM
When you get a little older you will have more patience and have a better time perspective.
6 years to George Steinbrenner is 56 in human years
Do you honestly think the team made bad moves while scrambling to avoid pissing off a guy on a message board? The team made bad moves because George was impatient and irrational. Not because Dooley is.
I certainly do not think that the Y's made moves to cater to this or any other message board, which of course did not even exist in the late 80s. If you have read other posts of mine, you will know I often remind people that their posts are simply vetting and have no effect.
But I do believe that Steinbrenner reacted in the past to the moves of other teams, especially the Mets, to command the back page of the tabloids. He wanted the Y's to have attention in the winter because he knew that is the way they could sell tickets to guys like Womack. Am I not right?
If he gets any older, he'll have change his name to Methuselah and move to Florida.
If Dooley is truly that old, then his lack of perspective is pitiful. On the other hand, maybe ihe s so old that his unwillingness to wait until April or let alone next year is more understandable.
Dooley Womack
11-24-05, 10:48 AM
If Dooley is truly that old, then his lack of perspective is pitiful. On the other hand, maybe ihe s so old that his unwillingness to wait until April or let alone next year is more understandable.
I can guaranty you that my "pitiful" "lack of perspective" is not as pitiful as your naivety and simple-mindedness, at least when it comes to this team.
The Yanks were never able to function before Cashman came along. Look at their sorry record, history and inability to win a championship that rivals the Sox drought. All Steinbrenner's fault! Oh wait, you'll tell me that any successes were in *spite* of him. I know people like you like a book.
By the way, Cashman's won how many World Series since he's tried to rebuild the team that Stick and Watson built and handed off to him?
flymick24
11-24-05, 10:52 AM
everyone needs to chill out and show some patience... bitching about the moves (or lack of moves) that the yankees are making won't make this off-season go any smoother
why can't we all just enjoy a nice thanksgiving? :D
RhodeyYankee2638
11-24-05, 10:59 AM
The Yanks were never able to function before Cashman came along. Look at their sorry record, history and inability to win a championship that rivals the Sox drought. All Steinbrenner's fault! Oh wait, you'll tell me that any success was in *spite* of him. I know people like you like a book.
Well, we did win 23 championships without Cashman, and 1 in the 90's without him.
Dooley Womack
11-24-05, 11:07 AM
Well, we did win 23 championships without Cashman, and 1 in the 90's without him.
Cashman took over a team that was already put into place, at least the core players. My how time flies. How's his success rate since some of those key players retired? How do you like the piching staff he's been happy with the past couple of years; the pen; the bench players?
Dooley Womack
11-24-05, 11:13 AM
But as Yankee fans we should be thankful for the great players that we have here.
:roflmao: :roflmao:
You mean like Sheff? Matsui? Giambi? A-Rod? RJ, Mussina? etc. etc. Ummmm.....none are Cashman players.
He did give us Weaver, Brown, Javy, Loaiza, Osuna, F-Rod, just to name a few, though!
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:15 AM
:roflmao: :roflmao:
You mean like Sheff? Giambi? A-Rod? RJ, Mussina? etc. etc. Ummmm.....none are Cashman players.
He did give us Weaver, Brown, Javy, Loaiza, Osuna, F-Rod, just to name a few, though!
Cashman negotiated the Giambi deal, traded for A-Rod, traded for Johnson, and he was definitely pushing for Mussina, and made that deal, too.
RhodeyYankee2638
11-24-05, 11:16 AM
Cashman took over a team that was already put into place, at least the core players. My how time flies. How's his success rate since some of those key players retired? How do you like the piching staff he's been happy with the past couple of years; the pen; the bench players?
I'm confused, from your last post I thought you were defending cashman???
MiamiKat
11-24-05, 11:18 AM
If he gets any older, he'll have change his name to Methuselah and move to Florida.
Watch it, buddy.
;)
Dooley Womack
11-24-05, 11:18 AM
Cashman negotiated the Giambi deal, traded for A-Rod, traded for Johnson, and he was definitely pushing for Mussina, and made that deal, too.
ILW, you're forgetting the link I sent you showing you that Cashman himself admitted that it wasn't he who came up with the A-Rod idea. Yeah, he probably negotiated hin contract AFTER the deal was in place. I will say I have to respect his honesty (he does have a lot of integrity) for not taking credit when credit was given to him.
As for RJ, GS was salivating for him for a decade. Yeah, I'll give Cashman credit for making the deal, but at George's request.
ring403
11-24-05, 11:19 AM
:roflmao: :roflmao:
You mean like Sheff? Giambi? A-Rod? RJ, Mussina? etc. etc. Ummmm.....none are Cashman players.
He did give us Weaver, Brown, Javy, Loaiza, Osuna, F-Rod, just to name a few, though!
We're all very well aware of how incompetent you feel that Brian Cashman is. It's really not necessary to reiterate the same sentiment, ad nauseum, in virtually every offseason thread.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:20 AM
ILW, you're forgetting the link I sent you showing you that Cashman himself admitted that iot wasn't he who came up with the A-Rod deal. Yeah, he probably negotiated hin contract AFTER the deal was in place. I will say I have to respect his honesty (he does have a lot of integrity) for not taking credit when credit was given to him.
Suggesting A-Rod in a meeting and actually brokering the deal are completely different. The story changed a dozen times, but apparently it was Levine who was the one who noticed that A-Rod was a great player. Cashman is the one who talked to Boras about him moving, and then engineered a trade in which we gave up a vastly inferior player (Soriano) and got them to eat a HUGE piece of A-Rod's deal.
JeffWeaverFan
11-24-05, 11:21 AM
:roflmao: :roflmao:
You mean like Sheff? Matsui? Giambi? A-Rod? RJ, Mussina? etc. etc. Ummmm.....none are Cashman players.
He did give us Weaver, Brown, Javy, Loaiza, Osuna, F-Rod, just to name a few, though!
You are forgetting that he wanted Vlad instead of Sheff.
You also forget about a guy like Shawn Chacon last year. Just the first that come to head.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:22 AM
As for RJ, GS was salivating for him for a decade. Yeah, I'll give Cashman credit for making the deal, but at George's request.
Is the value of a GM in noticing that future hall of famers are good? I thought it was in actually getting those players on your team. Cashman did bring Chacon, who was incredibly undervalued, and proceeded to be our best pitcher for the duration of the season. But what do you think happens? Steinbrenner says "Hey, Randy Johnson is a really good pitcher, we should get him." And then Cashman says "Holy crap, I never though of that. I'll just do the easy part now, and get his team to give him to us."
Dooley Womack
11-24-05, 11:24 AM
We're all very well aware of how incompetent you feel that Brian Cashman is. It's really not necessary to reiterate the same sentiment, ad nauseum, in virtually every offseason thread.
Maybe I'm just caught in a loop responding to those who are making comment about my perspective or responding to my Cashman posts?
Many of the people who are up in arms are the very same people who trash George, Tampa, Mel and Torre at the drop of a hat when things aren't going the way they want them to go and with the very same passion as I'm displaying.
But, you're the mod, and if it's disturbing you I'll refrain from responding to any posts I made regarding Cashman or to those making disparaging remarks toward me because I have the nerve for having a different opinion.
Happy Thanksgiving. It actually isn't worth bringing negativity to the board, especially today.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:26 AM
Maybe I'm just caught in a loop responding to those who are making comment about my perspective or responding to my Cashman posts?
Many of the people who are up in arms are the very same people who trash George, Tampa, Mel and Torre at the drop of a dime when things aren't going the way they want them to go and with the very same passion as I'm displaying.
But, you're the mod, and if it's disturbing you I'll refrain from responding to any posts I made regarding Cashman or making disparaging remarks toward me because I have the nerve for having a differing opinion.
Happy Thanksgiving. It actually isn't worth bringing negativity to the board, especially today.
Respond to me first.
Dooley Womack
11-24-05, 11:30 AM
You are forgetting that he wanted Vlad instead of Sheff.
You also forget about a guy like Shawn Chacon last year. Just the first that come to head.
Is the value of a GM in noticing that future hall of famers are good? I thought it was in actually getting those players on your team. Cashman did bring Chacon, who was incredibly undervalued, and proceeded to be our best pitcher for the duration of the season. But what do you think happens? Steinbrenner says "Hey, Randy Johnson is a really good pitcher, we should get him." And then Cashman says "Holy crap, I never though of that. I'll just do the easy part now, and get his team to give him to us."
If you keep picking up bad apples, eventually you'll come up with a good one. Ironically, Cashman was the first one to admit he didn't expect much from Chacon-that he was brought here for spot starting and 5th at best, but was a pleasant surprise instead. Sort of like Theo getting Ortiz to a much lesser extent. Neither expected the outcome. But, I credit Cashman for that and many other good moves. Unfortunately, I don't have the faith in him some of you have, but that's ok...we're entitled to differ.
As for Vlad, NOBODY wanted him, his demands and his bad back except the Mets, O's and finally the Angels. He wanted no part of NY until nobody was pursuing him and the O's dropped out; only then did he welcome the Mets to talk to him. His own mother, who he lives with, didn't want him to come to NY. Sheff wasn't exactly an awful move, and though he's older his numbers are up there with Vlad's if not better.
On that note, I'll respect the boards wishes and keep my trap shut and start getting things done for the holiday. Happy Thanksgiving.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:35 AM
If you keep picking up bad apples, eventually you'll come up with a good one. In addition, Cashman was the first one to admit he didn't expect much from Chacon-that he was brought here for spot starting and 5th at best, but was a pleasant surprise instead. Sort of like Theo getting Ortiz to a much lesser extent. Neither expected the outcome. But, I credit Cashman for that and many other good moves. Unfortunately, I don't have the faith in him some of you have, but that's ok...we're entitled to differ.
On that note, I'll respect the boards wishes and keep my trap shut and start getting things done for the holiday. Happy Thanksgiving.
I still don't understand how you value suggesting acquiring hall of famers over the actual ability to acquire them. And, beyond that, Mussina was DEFINITELY a Cashman guy. I remember that Steinbrenner was high on Manny Ramirez, and Cashman wanted Mussina instead, and fought for him. But Sheffield is the only deal that Steinbrenner put together. And he paid him a lot more than he was going to be offered by anyone else. The Johnson and Rodriguez deals were "suggested" by Steinbrenner and Levine in the sense that each said they should be acquired, which any kook on this site can do. Cashman put together the deals, which, in the case of Rodriguez, was extremely lopsided in our favor.
ring403
11-24-05, 11:39 AM
Happy Thanksgiving. It actually isn't worth bringing negativity to the board, especially today.
I echo those sentiments.
Let's please try to keep the conversations civil. (And I'm speaking to everyone.)
Dooley Womack
11-24-05, 11:40 AM
I still don't understand how you value suggesting acquiring hall of famers over the actual ability to acquire them. And, beyond that, Mussina was DEFINITELY a Cashman guy. I remember that Steinbrenner was high on Manny Ramirez, and Cashman wanted Mussina instead, and fought for him. But Sheffield is the only deal that Steinbrenner put together. And he paid him a lot more than he was going to be offered by anyone else. The Johnson and Rodriguez deals were "suggested" by Steinbrenner and Levine in the sense that each said they should be acquired, which any kook on this site can do. Cashman put together the deals, which, in the case of Rodriguez, was extremely lopsided in our favor.
How's this. I don't think you or I actually know what went down. We aren't privy to anything but slanted newspaper stories and an occasional quote.
I'm almost playing the game that George haters love to play - all good deals are Cashman's, all bad ones are George and Tampa. Nobody here truly knows how any trades or signings transpired. All I know is that since many of the 4 ring players have sailed off into the sunset, a lot of the players who replaced them were questionable and bombed. Either they were George or Cashman choices, but responsibilty has to lie on Cashman's sholders to a large extent since he IS the GM. That's only natural.
As for George, he ain't going nowhere till he dies. GM's are dispensible and come and go.
Dooley Womack
11-24-05, 11:43 AM
Later guys. Enjoy.
I Love Wang
11-24-05, 11:51 AM
How's this. I don't think you or I actually know what went down. We aren't privy to anything but slanted newspaper stories and an occasional quote.
I'm almost playing the game that George haters love to play - all good deals are Cashman's, all bad ones are George and Tampa. Nobody here truly knows how any trades or signings transpired. All I know is that since many of the 4 ring players have sailed off into the sunset, a lot of the players who replaced them were questionable and bombed. Either they were George or Cashman choices, but responsibilty has to lie on Cashman's sholders to a large extent since he IS the GM. That's only natural.
As for George, he ain't going nowhere till he dies. GM's are dispensible and come and go.
Ignoring the idea of who suggested what players though, we know that Cashman was the one who put together the A-Rod deal, and is the one who got Boras to convince him to move to 3B. I know that Cashman values youth, and athleticism, and wants to protect prospects.
whalers
11-24-05, 02:46 PM
Ignoring the idea of who suggested what players though, we know that Cashman was the one who put together the A-Rod deal, and is the one who got Boras to convince him to move to 3B. I know that Cashman values youth, and athleticism, and wants to protect prospects.
It has also been acknowledged in the media that Tampa was behind the Wright and Womack signings. Cashman has had his bad deals as well...Kevin Brown comes to mind.
ILW, you're forgetting the link I sent you showing you that Cashman himself admitted that it wasn't he who came up with the A-Rod idea. Yeah, he probably negotiated hin contract AFTER the deal was in place. I will say I have to respect his honesty (he does have a lot of integrity) for not taking credit when credit was given to him.
As for RJ, GS was salivating for him for a decade. Yeah, I'll give Cashman credit for making the deal, but at George's request.
Actually Randy Levine had a lot to do with getting RJ over here.
BobbyMurcerFan
11-25-05, 03:52 AM
You are forgetting that he wanted Vlad instead of Sheff.
You also forget about a guy like Shawn Chacon last year. Just the first that come to head.And forgetting that Cash is the reason Cano was promoted to the bigs. That move by itself was gutsy and saved the season.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 04:09 AM
And forgetting that Cash is the reason Cano was promoted to the bigs. That move by itself was gutsy and saved the season.
He brought Wang up to instead of going the trade route while refusing to make trades throughout the season that would've cost the Yankees their best prospects.
ICEBERG18
11-25-05, 06:21 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/369023p-313970c.htm
Snatch Catch
11-25-05, 06:22 PM
The Jays are going to be prih-tay, prih-tay, prih-tay good next year.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 06:31 PM
The Jays are going to be prih-tay, prih-tay, prih-tay good next year.
J.P. is going to dish out those five year contracts. Anyhow, I'm sure this signing is not a surprise to Cashman or the Yankees.
The Jays are going to be prih-tay, prih-tay, prih-tay good next year.
They should be decent. They have a front of the rotation stud in Halladay and now a solid closer in Ryan. He's not an elite closer, but he's a good one.
Anyway....they still have depth problems in the rotation. I would expect Chacin to be, at best, the pitcher he was this year- but a good chance he is worse. His stuff is mediocre, and the second and third time the East teams saw him they were a lot more comfortable with his strange motion.
They have a bunch of questions in the pen, as do most teams, but their offense simply isn't that good. They are building towards a good team, but I would be suprised if they contended as early as next year. Should be an 85-90 win team, though.
I still don't understand how you value suggesting acquiring hall of famers over the actual ability to acquire them. And, beyond that, Mussina was DEFINITELY a Cashman guy. I remember that Steinbrenner was high on Manny Ramirez, and Cashman wanted Mussina instead, and fought for him. But Sheffield is the only deal that Steinbrenner put together. And he paid him a lot more than he was going to be offered by anyone else. The Johnson and Rodriguez deals were "suggested" by Steinbrenner and Levine in the sense that each said they should be acquired, which any kook on this site can do. Cashman put together the deals, which, in the case of Rodriguez, was extremely lopsided in our favor.
Cashman also supposedly preferred Vlad to Sheffield, based on age. Not much of a difference the past two seasons, though I would safely assume that is going to favor Vlad long-term. I understand the injury questions, but he came back from the back injury the year before and raked for a few months- with power.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 06:39 PM
Burnett will probably sign with them, but he doesn't scare me. I like it when other teams besides the Yankees start handing out five year contracts.
hellonewman
11-25-05, 06:40 PM
J.P. is going to dish out those five year contracts. Anyhow, I'm sure this signing is not a surprise to Cashman or the Yankees.That seems to be our offseason strategy: Not being surprised. :P
27IsNext
11-25-05, 06:40 PM
The Jays look to be putting together a good team. It'll probably be them and the Yankees competing for first place next season.
scull567
11-25-05, 06:42 PM
The Jays look to be putting together a good team. It'll probably be them and the Yankees competing for first place next season.
:lol:
AMYanks
11-25-05, 06:44 PM
Oh well, sounded like he wasn't going to come here, anyway.
ring403
11-25-05, 06:46 PM
A guaranteed 5 year contract at top dollar for a closer with one year of experience is stunning. I can see why Ryan signed. I don't think any other team in the league would have been willing to go there. Wow!
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 06:46 PM
Oh well, sounded like he wasn't going to come here, anyway.
It was a pipe dream since the Yankees were not about to give him a 50M five year contract.
The Jays look to be putting together a good team. It'll probably be them and the Yankees competing for first place next season.
No until they add some solid bat. In 2005 their highest OPS+ guy is Frank Catalanotto, 115. Shea Hillenbrand is second, 108.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 06:49 PM
A guaranteed 5 year contract at top dollar for a closer with one year of experience is stunning. I can see why Ryan signed. I don't think any other team in the league would have been willing to go there. Wow!
I think you're right, but Toronto has to do so in order to get players to come to Canada and play. The same thing is going to happen with Burnett.
YankeeFan1
11-25-05, 06:51 PM
I think Ryan is now making almost as much money as Mariano. Amazing. Good for him. We'll see if the Blue Jays bring it this season.
NYDCYankee
11-25-05, 06:51 PM
Their bullpen is going to be nasty. I'm jealous.
The Jays have a finite payroll. These things are good- a non-premiere closer getting paid that much (again, he was good this year, not great), and possibly a talented and underperforming and injury prone pitcher who will get paid for his potential and not production? Go get 'em. When they can no longer afford to pay Vernon Wells, they'll either dump him or let him walk.
Their bullpen is going to be nasty. I'm jealous.
With who? Seriously, their bullpen is still not that good. Some good arms, but inconsistency down the line. I would shy far away from the term "nasty"...maybe settle on "potential to be good", or "decent"..
The Jays have a finite payroll. These things are good- a non-premiere closer getting paid that much (again, he was good this year, not great), and possibly a talented and underperforming and injury prone pitcher who will get paid for his potential and not production? Go get 'em. When they can no longer afford to pay Vernon Wells, they'll either dump him or let him walk.
Agreed on all points. I see the positive in this.
AMYanks
11-25-05, 07:01 PM
The Jays have a finite payroll. These things are good- a non-premiere closer getting paid that much (again, he was good this year, not great), and possibly a talented and underperforming and injury prone pitcher who will get paid for his potential and not production? Go get 'em. When they can no longer afford to pay Vernon Wells, they'll either dump him or let him walk.
Ryan was better than "good". "Great" would not be a word to describe him, but I would say somewhere in between.
YankeePride1967
11-25-05, 07:02 PM
well, I think we can agree that there is no failure on Brian's part. I would not give a five year deal to a closer with ONE year experience. The Yankees have never even gone 5 years with Rivera.
NYDCYankee
11-25-05, 07:02 PM
With who? Seriously, their bullpen is still not that good. Some good arms, but inconsistency down the line. I would shy far away from the term "nasty"...maybe settle on "potential to be good", or "decent"..
What? Adding Ryan to Frasor, Speier, Schoenweiss, Chulk, and with the potential of League, makes for a nasty bullpen in my book. Especially when you look around the AL.
nyg02005
11-25-05, 07:02 PM
I guess he got his money. There goes the theory that he needs the yankees to get the money.
Their bullpen is going to be nasty. I'm jealous.
It really will. They will be a strong contender in the AL East. I see this being another three-way fight for the title.
terminator
11-25-05, 07:05 PM
So, I figure this means that Gordon gets his 3 year deal, right?
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 07:06 PM
It really will. They will be a strong contender in the AL East. I see this being another three-way fight for the title.
It's much too early for me to consider them a real threat yet. Their lineup can be pitched to and their pitching staff is mainly made up with guys that have never been in a pennant race.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 07:07 PM
So, I figure this means that Gordon gets his 3 year deal, right?
I hope not!
It really will. They will be a strong contender in the AL East. I see this being another three-way fight for the title.
No until they add some solid bats. In 2005 their highest OPS+ guy is Frank Catalanotto, 115. Shea Hillenbrand is second, 108.
nyg02005
11-25-05, 07:12 PM
If they can not signed any 2 more good reliever(lefty and righty), I am against overpaying for gordon. But I am guessing that they will overpay for gordon since they have no choice and even overpaying will not guarantee them in bringing back gordon now.
Johnny O
11-25-05, 07:13 PM
It's much too early for me to consider them a real threat yet. Their lineup can be pitched to and their pitching staff is mainly made up with guys that have never been in a pennant race.
Halladay is easily better than any Yankee starter.
Bill_theBluejayfan
11-25-05, 07:15 PM
Halladay is easily better than any Yankee starter.
If not the best pitcher in the AL, hopefully he gets back to his Cy Young form after his injury, with all signs point to yes.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 07:15 PM
Halladay is easily better than any Yankee starter.
When I see him pitch well in meaningful games then I'll give him his prompts. He can still lose a 2-1 or 3-2 game since his lineup isn't as productive as the Yankees.
YankeeFan1
11-25-05, 07:17 PM
Halladay isn't better than RJ, but he is definitely better than all the Red Sox starters.
terminator
11-25-05, 07:18 PM
I hope not!
Well if not from the Yankees, then from some other team.
I would guess that Cashman will give him a 2 year deal, with an incentive based option for the 3rd.
Any free-agent pitcher who was decent last year, just sent a "thank you card" to
JP. Not only was he overpaid in terms of $/yrs - but he also got a 5 year deal, which correct me if I'm wrong, has not been given to a reliever in the recent past?
MassNYYfan
11-25-05, 07:20 PM
So, he just wanted to play for the team that had his initials then....
5 years, $47M. Can see why he'd take that deal. :eek:
AMYanks
11-25-05, 07:20 PM
Halladay isn't better than RJ, but he is definitely better than all the Red Sox starters.
You would honestly take RJ over Halladay?
BeantownYankee
11-25-05, 07:21 PM
Burnett will probably sign with them, but he doesn't scare me. I like it when other teams besides the Yankees start handing out five year contracts.
But then after a year or two they look for teams like the Yankees to bail them out by taking on those contracts (see Marlins for latest example). Let's hope we don't this time.
nyg02005
11-25-05, 07:22 PM
Add burnett to halladay and a more experienced chacin, then you will have a very good and young 1-2-3 stuff. Based on last yr performance, the yankees have a questionable no. 1(Randy), a doubtable no. 2 (Mussina), an unnerved no. 3 (Pavano), an inexperienced no. 4(Wang) and an unproven no. 5 (chacon).
Bill_theBluejayfan
11-25-05, 07:24 PM
Halladay isn't better than RJ, but he is definitely better than all the Red Sox starters.
:-whistle- Rightttttttttttt. 28 years old versus 40 something old aging lefty.
JeffWeaverFan
11-25-05, 07:26 PM
Wow, the relief market this year is just ridiculous.
Ryan was very good, I am not saying that. But he wasn't elite- he isn't amongst the top 5 or 6 closers I would take in the game. Heck, he wasn't the best closer on the market this winter, though he is younger than Wagner.
Anyway....Frasor is a good arm that can be a little wild and gives up the HR. Solid middle/late guy, but nothing overly special. Speier is a veteran home run machine who had his best season last year in a mediocre relieving career. Chulk is another decent middle guy who tends to give up HR and doesn't strike anyone out. His numbers were likely a bit of luck last year, and should more closely resemble his first year.
League has a great arm...But he has BlueJay disease as well with the long ball...and I could pick out a great arm in every organization that has yet to have success in the majors. A 6.56 era last year tells me he is still all potential.
All in all? Potential to be good. But the same potential to revert to career norms or not advance....and turn into a poor pen.
Additionally....the Jays have absolutely no offense. They should be a decent team if Halladay and Ryan are healthy the whole year....but a house of cards.
Halladay isn't better than RJ, but he is definitely better than all the Red Sox starters.
Huh? Halladay is not RJ in his prime...but healthy he is as good a pitcher as there is in the AL. He's superior to Johnson at the point- clearly.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 07:30 PM
Add burnett to halladay and a more experienced chacin, then you will have a very good and young 1-2-3 stuff. Based on last yr performance, the yankees have a questionable no. 1(Randy), a doubtable no. 2 (Mussina), an unnerved no. 3 (Pavano), an inexperienced no. 4(Wang) and an unproven no. 5 (chacon).
I wouldn't exactly call Burnett nor Chacin proven commodities.
YankeePride1967
11-25-05, 07:31 PM
:-whistle- Rightttttttttttt. 28 years old versus 40 something old aging lefty.
At this stage it's Halladay and it's a no brainer.
nyg02005
11-25-05, 07:33 PM
I wouldn't exactly call Burnett nor Chacin proven commodities.
I will take the two over mussina and pavano.
Yankees1962
11-25-05, 07:34 PM
I will take the two over mussina and pavano.
Go ahead, but we'll see in due time how good those guys really are.
Where or when did Pavano seem unnerved? Seriously...he had a huge game when healthy against the Sox early in the year (first or second start?), and pitched very well and fairly poorly against everyone. He just seemed to get hurt after pitching decently for a few months, then not come back.
And if I had to bet against one rookie pitcher from last year, Chacin would be head and shoulders above everyone else- I don't like his stuff at all.
Bill_theBluejayfan
11-25-05, 07:40 PM
Ricciardi says no
http://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article.jsp?content=20051125_194301_4524
nyg02005
11-25-05, 07:42 PM
Where or when did Pavano seem unnerved? Seriously...he had a huge game when healthy against the Sox early in the year (first or second start?), and pitched very well and fairly poorly against everyone. He just seemed to get hurt after pitching decently for a few months, then not come back.
And if I had to bet against one rookie pitcher from last year, Chacin would be head and shoulders above everyone else- I don't like his stuff at all.
How about no doctor was able to diagnose what is ailing pavano. Pavano has an injury that he only knows.
How about no doctor was able to diagnose what is ailing pavano. Pavano has an injury that he only knows.
No....they saw inflammation, but it didn't seem to be as much as he claimed. Which isn't unheard of. His velocity was significantly down....from 93-94 to 89-91. Something was up.
Not really defending him....but the way I saw things was that he pitched decently until his arm starting bothering him...he pitched terribly and then shut it down. I would certainly say there are injury questions with the man, but I saw nothing that showed him unnerved. Maybe some third party comments from August that have recently been run again by the Ledger....but not much else.
YankeeFan1
11-25-05, 07:49 PM
How about no doctor was able to diagnose what is ailing pavano. Pavano has an injury that he only knows. This is exactly how the Cubs and many of their fans have reacted to many of Kerry Wood's injuries. He would say that he felt something, the doctors would find nothing substantial, they send him back out there to pitch, and then the injury would get get worse until they have shut him down because it finally showed up in the MRI.
nyg02005
11-25-05, 07:51 PM
No....they saw inflammation, but it didn't seem to be as much as he claimed. Which isn't unheard of. His velocity was significantly down....from 93-94 to 89-91. Something was up.
Not really defending him....but the way I saw things was that he pitched decently until his arm starting bothering him...he pitched terribly and then shut it down. I would certainly say there are injury questions with the man, but I saw nothing that showed him unnerved. Maybe some third party comments from August that have recently been run again by the Ledger....but not much else.
I am not against Pavano but Prior pitched with injury for most of last year and prior came back from a much worse injury. Prior came back even if his team has little chance to make the playoff while Pavano could have been the reason if the yankees did not make the playoff.
nyg02005
11-25-05, 07:52 PM
This is exactly how the Cubs and many of their fans have reacted to many of Kerry Wood's injuries. He would say that he felt something, the doctors would find nothing substantial, they send him back out there to pitch, and then the injury would get get worse until they have shut him down because it finally showed up in the MRI.
come on even doctor andrews can not find something that can prevent him from pitching.
I am not against Pavano but Prior pitched with injury for most of last year and prior came back from a much worse injury. Prior came back even if his team has little chance to make the playoff while Pavano could have been the reason if the yankees did not make the playoff.
I disagree that is was "a much worse injury". In fact, Prior's injury was not a muscular or ligament injury- the worst for pitchers. It was an elbow injury that resulted from a batted ball- I'd prefer waiting for that to heal than to feel pain or weakness in the shoulder.
YankeeFan1
11-25-05, 07:57 PM
come on even doctor andrews can not find something that can prevent him from pitching.You know what, I done with this whole stupid topic. I've really had enough of it.
Wade_Taylor
11-25-05, 07:58 PM
So lets see Billy Wagner who is a very good but injury riddled reliever will get between $10 and $11 million a year. B.J. Ryan, a tough lefty who has about a year of closing experience gets roughly 9.4 million a year. Wow, Mariano at $10.5 million a year has got to be the bargain of the year.
nyg02005
11-25-05, 08:02 PM
I disagree that is was "a much worse injury". In fact, Prior's injury was not a muscular or ligament injury- the worst for pitchers. It was an elbow injury that resulted from a batted ball- I'd prefer waiting for that to heal than to feel pain or weakness in the shoulder.
When prior got injured, everybody was reporting that his season was over while in the case of pavano, the team was saying that it would take 2 weeks then 3 weeks then 4 weeks then all of us already knows.
When prior got injured, everybody was reporting that his season was over while in the case of pavano, the team was saying that it would take 2 weeks then 3 weeks then 4 weeks then all of us already knows.
Ok....last time I will comment on this. With pitchers, it is pretty common for them to feel something before it shows up on an MRI. Whether tightness, fatigue, or actual pain. He was throwing low to mid 90's for 2 years, and then is in the high 80's this year for no reason other than you believe he was scared and didn't want to pitch in NY? Please.
Additionally, the fact that a guy like Mark Prior came back from a non-structural or muscular injury before the timetable for his return has absolutely nothing to do with Carl Pavano. I guess if they had the same diagnosis for the same injury, you coudl compare. But to insinuate that Pavano didn't want to pitch, you'd need to be a LOT closer to the situation than you are.
noneckwilliams
11-25-05, 08:36 PM
The Jays are going to be prih-tay, prih-tay, prih-tay good next year.
It's hard for me to see the BJs handing out 5 yrs and $47 mil to Ryan. I'll believe it when the ink is dry.
If they do I predict they'll be looking to deal him by June 2007.
Is it possible that someone at the Daily News heard it wrong, and the offer was to AJ and not BJ? I just can't fathom that Toronto made such a huge offer.
AMYanks
11-25-05, 09:03 PM
Is it possible that someone at the Daily News heard it wrong, and the offer was to AJ and not BJ? I just can't fathom that Toronto made such a huge offer.
That would be hillarious. The King of all embarassments.
With pitchers, it is pretty common for them to feel something before it shows up on an MRI. .
Not necessarliy true, but regardless really not relevant in this case. The MRI's were done at the end of the season after he had been not pitching for months. There are a lot of questions about his condition and until he shows that it's not an issue of his desire, right or wrong, the questions will breed scepticism
ring403
11-25-05, 09:12 PM
Is it possible that someone at the Daily News heard it wrong, and the offer was to AJ and not BJ?
Not if those figures are correct. Burnett will be getting quite a bit more than $10 million per year.
Not if those figures are correct. Burnett will be getting quite a bit more than $10 million per year.
It was mostly a joke. Anyway, it looks like ESPN and a bunch of other news services are now carrying the report...
ring403
11-25-05, 09:19 PM
Anyway, it looks like ESPN and a bunch of other news services are now carrying the report...They are all citing the original Daily News report. As far as I know, there is no other source confirming the story at the moment.
Bill_theBluejayfan
11-25-05, 09:30 PM
actually AP is now confirming it now so I think it can be deemed official.
AMYanks
11-25-05, 09:32 PM
actually AP is now confirming it now so I think it can be deemed official.
Damn, I would've loved if the Daily News screwed that up. Not that I have anything against them, but it would've been hillarious.
ring403
11-25-05, 09:37 PM
Damn, I would've loved if the Daily News screwed that up. Not that I have anything against them, but it would've been hillarious.
Nice scoop for Madden, if it does turn out to be a done deal.
Mark Healey
11-25-05, 09:37 PM
actually AP is now confirming it now so I think it can be deemed official.
AP isn't confirming anything yet and neither are we
ICEBERG18
11-25-05, 09:38 PM
A Blue Jays spokesman said Friday night, "Negotiations are continuing and nothing is finalized."
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051125&content_id=1272416&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
SubwayFanatic
11-25-05, 09:38 PM
The Jays look to be putting together a good team. It'll probably be them and the Yankees competing for first place next season.
It seems like every offseason, people start wildly overrating just how good the Blue Jays and Orioles are going to be.
I am not saying that they can't compete - hell, maybe everything goes right for them next year and they finally do - but can we at least wait until this team finishes, oh, I don't know, .500, before we start taking them seriously as contenders for the playoffs.
Mark Healey
11-25-05, 09:45 PM
AP isn't confirming anything yet and neither are we
CP is confirming, the Canadian Press that is. Big Difference.
Mark Healey
11-25-05, 09:50 PM
CP is confirming, the Canadian Press that is. Big Difference.
The Associated Press is reporting that Ryan and the Toronto Blue Jays have reached a preliminary agreement on a deal.
"We're still talking to him," Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi told AP. "To me, this whole thing is premature."
http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8781#post8781
Captain Yankee
11-25-05, 09:52 PM
I don't know if BJ Ryan is worth (reportedly) 5 years/40 plus million.
ring403
11-25-05, 10:03 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5113006
NEW YORK (AP) - B.J. Ryan and the Toronto Blue Jays have reached a preliminary agreement on a $47 million, five-year contract, a high-ranking baseball official said Friday.
Ryan, a right-hander who turns 30 next month, is getting the largest deal given to a reliever, topping the $39.99 million, four-year contract Mariano Rivera had with the New York Yankees from 2001-04. Rivera just completed the first season of a $21 million, two-year deal with the Yankees.
The baseball official spoke on condition of anonymity because Toronto had not yet announced the agreement.
"We're still talking to him," Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi said. "To me, this whole thing is premature."
Ricciardi said he did not anticipate any announcements during the weekend. Pat Rooney, Ryan's agent, did not return a telephone call seeking comment.
panicfan
11-25-05, 10:12 PM
Oh well, I don't think there is anything the Yankees could have done short of making Ryan the closer, which we know would never happen.
I think this year is going to be all about trades rather than free agents.
Johnny O
11-25-05, 10:29 PM
When I see him pitch well in meaningful games then I'll give him his prompts. He can still lose a 2-1 or 3-2 game since his lineup isn't as productive as the Yankees.
What the heck does that mean? A pitcher's W-L record is not a reflection of the pitcher but of the team. If Halladay pitches better than Mussina but has a worse record, that's not his fault.
Good pitchers pitch poorly in the post-season, because there is no difference between piching in June and pitching in October. The stage is just that much more visible and is magnified by the mainstream sports media. RJ got smoked against the Angels in te ALDS, does that diminish his career?
MattUNC2003
11-25-05, 10:50 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5113006
So, are the Jays still gonna sign Burnett too? What about Batista? Is he the set-up man now? If so, Toronto might actually now have something that resembles a pretty decent bullpen.
Dooley Womack
11-25-05, 10:54 PM
So, are the Jays still gonna sign Burnett too? What about Batista? Is he the set-up man now? If so, Toronto might actually now have something that resembles a pretty decent bullpen.
Something tells me they'll now have to pass on another rumored 5 year contract.
Maybe Cashman can place a call to Burnett's agent and take advantage of the Ryan situation, turning a negative into a positive.
NewEraYanks2527
11-25-05, 10:55 PM
I don't know if BJ Ryan is worth (reportedly) 5 years/40 plus million.
He's not. He will however do fine closing for the Jays, away from the spotlight. But in a big game, like the July 4th 2005 game I saw him hand the Yankees back the lead that they blew and what probably was the turning point of both seasons, Ryan will crumble. He will do fine though closing for third and fourth place A.L. East teams.
NewEraYanks2527
11-25-05, 10:56 PM
Something tells me they'll now have to pass on another rumored 5 year contract.
Maybe Cashman can place a call to Burnett's agent and take advantage of the Ryan situation, turning a negative into a positive.
Why would you even want Burnett?
Why would you even want Burnett?
good peripherals. good stuff. reasonably young. nice guy to give a shot too, though admittedly risky.
Dooley Womack
11-25-05, 11:22 PM
Why would you even want Burnett?
Because if somebody (Kerrigan?) could harness him and help work out his control problems he can be an elite pitcher. He's also come back from surgery to go over 200 innings with no loss in his velocity, so that shouldn't be a problem.
BronxByTheBay
11-25-05, 11:30 PM
Ryan will crumble. He will do fine though closing for third and fourth place A.L. East teams.
I don't know how you can say this with any confidence. There is nothing about B.J. Ryan that suggests at best "good closer on a bad team".
redshift
11-25-05, 11:40 PM
So, are the Jays still gonna sign Burnett too? What about Batista? Is he the set-up man now? If so, Toronto might actually now have something that resembles a pretty decent bullpen.
Toronto already had a very decent bullpen. Its hitting that they lacked.
NelsonMuntz
11-26-05, 12:04 AM
Because if somebody (Kerrigan?) could harness him and help work out his control problems he can be an elite pitcher. He's also come back from surgery to go over 200 innings with no loss in his velocity, so that shouldn't be a problem.
I agree. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of taking a chance on Burnett. He averages 8 strikeouts a game, and for his career opposing batters are hitting just .230 off of him. All of our starting pitchers have a better than average chance at landing on the DL (with the exception of Small who is at high risk for reverting back to career norms) so it could only help to stock up on pitching.
ChrisV82
11-26-05, 12:07 AM
Imagine if Toronto signs Burnett for 5/$50 too, that could become a huge albatross around the organization.
Ryan is good, but I think the Yankees need to stay away from any five year+ deals.
JavyVazquezIsSick
11-26-05, 01:43 AM
I'd be willing to offer Ryan a similar deal but obviously the Jays can offer something the Yankees can't (the ability to close)...
jbauer2485
11-26-05, 01:57 AM
What's the fixation with closing? We would pay "closer's money" and he would get to play with the best baseball team in the world. Also, he would probably take over for Mariano in a few years and get the position he wants. I really can't see this from BJ's side. Am I missing something? Does he not want to be in the spotlight? Someone enlighten me please.
Yankeeah
11-26-05, 02:06 AM
What's the fixation with closing? We would pay "closer's money" and he would get to play with the best baseball team in the world. Also, he would probably take over for Mariano in a few years and get the position he wants. I really can't see this from BJ's side. Am I missing something? Does he not want to be in the spotlight? Someone enlighten me please.
A few reasons
1) He may like the thrill/rush of closing, plus going from closer to set up man is a demotion.
2) Maybe he wanted to go to a smaller market
3) 5 years $47 mill is awful hard to turn down
Yankees1962
11-26-05, 04:40 AM
I agree. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of taking a chance on Burnett. He averages 8 strikeouts a game, and for his career opposing batters are hitting just .230 off of him. All of our starting pitchers have a better than average chance at landing on the DL (with the exception of Small who is at high risk for reverting back to career norms) so it could only help to stock up on pitching.
The Yankees aren't going to give Burnett a five year deal for 50M or more.
Yankees1962
11-26-05, 04:47 AM
What the heck does that mean? A pitcher's W-L record is not a reflection of the pitcher but of the team. If Halladay pitches better than Mussina but has a worse record, that's not his fault.
Good pitchers pitch poorly in the post-season, because there is no difference between piching in June and pitching in October. The stage is just that much more visible and is magnified by the mainstream sports media. RJ got smoked against the Angels in te ALDS, does that diminish his career?
You know what that means. I don't want to read about how Halliday is going to beat the Yankees in the playoffs, I want to see him do it before I think of him as a Bob Gibson/Jack Morris type playoff pitcher.
SoCal Pinstriper
11-26-05, 06:18 AM
What's the fixation with closing? We would pay "closer's money" and he would get to play with the best baseball team in the world. Also, he would probably take over for Mariano in a few years and get the position he wants. I really can't see this from BJ's side. Am I missing something? Does he not want to be in the spotlight? Someone enlighten me please.Not everyone wants to play in NY or for the Yankees (as hard as that might be for some of us whove always dreamed of doing so to understand).
Five years for a relief pitcher, Wow.
noneckwilliams
11-26-05, 06:26 AM
Maybe Cashman can place a call to Burnett's agent and take advantage of the Ryan situation, turning a negative into a positive.
Basically I think the Yanks are all set for starters - but Burnett is someone they should inquire about.
SoCal Pinstriper
11-26-05, 06:44 AM
So, are the Jays still gonna sign Burnett too? What about Batista? Is he the set-up man now? If so, Toronto might actually now have something that resembles a pretty decent bullpen.
By signing Ryan, who earned $2.9 million last season, the flush Jays, with $30 million to add to their payroll, are still in the hunt for free-agent right-handed starter A.J. Burnett. The Jays made a five-year, $50-million offer to Burnett last week.
And the Jays can now move their 2005 model closer, Batista, to the Texas Rangers for outfielder Kevin Mench.
http://torontosun.com/Sports/Baseball/2005/11/26/1324860-sun.html
SoCal Pinstriper
11-26-05, 06:49 AM
More on Batista from Ricciardi
Batista is set to earn $4.9 million next season and one report last night had the Jays talking with the Texas Rangers about a deal for outfielder Kevin Mench. There have also been reports this week that linked the Jays in trade discussions with the Milwaukee Brewers regarding first baseman Lyle Overbay.
"I don't want to take anything away from Miggy. It was his first year (at full-time closing) and did a great job," said Gibbons. "Ryan would be the closer, though. Maybe we could slide Miggy up into a set-up type of role; maybe back into the rotation. I also know Miggy has always been in demand by other teams."
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1132960213175&call_pageid=969907739730&col=970081600908
Little Big Sheff
11-26-05, 07:33 AM
What's the fixation with closing? We would pay "closer's money" and he would get to play with the best baseball team in the world. Also, he would probably take over for Mariano in a few years and get the position he wants. I really can't see this from BJ's side. Am I missing something? Does he not want to be in the spotlight? Someone enlighten me please.
5/47 is not "closer's money". It's "starter's money"
What's the fixation with closing? We would pay "closer's money" and he would get to play with the best baseball team in the world. Also, he would probably take over for Mariano in a few years and get the position he wants. I really can't see this from BJ's side. Am I missing something? Does he not want to be in the spotlight? Someone enlighten me please.
When relievers start getting into the hall, it will be because of how many saves they had, not how many holds they had. The save stat might be silly and arbitrary, but it is how careers are measured for top flight relief pitchers. It's how contracts get handed out if Ryan wants a deal after this one, and so on.
BTW, no one wants to take over for a great player or coach. Whoever follows Rivera is going to have to live in that shadow. What you want to be is the 2nd guy to get the job.
Oh, and there is no way the Yankees were ever going to match the number of years for Ryan even if they did want to match the salary.
NelsonMuntz
11-26-05, 10:29 AM
The Yankees aren't going to give Burnett a five year deal for 50M or more.
Nor would I want them to. But is anyone else really going to give him a five year/$50M deal? Ultimately I think he'll sign for less.
terminator
11-26-05, 10:31 AM
Nor would I want them to. But is anyone else really going to give him a five year/$50M deal? Ultimately I think he'll sign for less.
Toronto is increasing its payroll by 25-30 million this year. They have money to spare.
Nor would I want them to. But is anyone else really going to give him a five year/$50M deal? Ultimately I think he'll sign for less.
A reliever just got a 5/50 deal. He'll get it, and more.
YankeePride1967
11-26-05, 10:35 AM
A reliever just got a 5/50 deal. He'll get it, and more.
Agreed and quite possibly with the same team.
ring403
11-26-05, 10:41 AM
Nor would I want them to. But is anyone else really going to give him a five year/$50M deal? Ultimately I think he'll sign for less.
http://torontosun.com/Sports/Baseball/2005/11/22/1317661-sun.html
Thus far the Jays, who last week offered Burnett a five-year deal worth $50 million US, have made the cut.
And that was an INITIAL offer from the Jays.
NelsonMuntz
11-26-05, 11:10 AM
http://torontosun.com/Sports/Baseball/2005/11/22/1317661-sun.html
And that was an INITIAL offer from the Jays.
Damn. Well God bless them. We're definitely not matching that.
Yankeeah
11-26-05, 11:18 AM
Well, we needed pen help, but I always say, don't trust someone who has two first names. I guess BJ counts as a first name....
Fabien Brandy
11-26-05, 11:21 AM
Toronto is increasing its payroll by 25-30 million this year. They have money to spare.
The problem is that Ricciardi is trying to save his job and is going to end up hurting the franchise overall if he signs Ryan and Burnett. Burnett has Darren Driefort written all over him.
Sierra Mist
11-26-05, 11:21 AM
wow this is a shocker, of all teams he picked Toronto.
Yankees1962
11-26-05, 11:42 AM
The problem is that Ricciardi is trying to save his job and is going to end up hurting the franchise overall if he signs Ryan and Burnett. Burnett has Darren Driefort written all over him.
That's silly about Ricciardi trying to save his job because he would be in very much in high demand if he goes on the open market. Ricciardi is one of the few younger GM's that has actual scouting experience with a clear understanding in using stats in his evaluation of players.
Fabien Brandy
11-26-05, 12:20 PM
That's silly about Ricciardi trying to save his job because he would be in very much in high demand if he goes on the open market. Ricciardi is one of the few younger GM's that has actual scouting experience with a clear understanding in using stats in his evaluation of players.
If you say so. The team hasn't made any progress since he started and the farm system is worse than it was when he started. Now he'll start spending like a drunken sailor and we'll see how he does with that.
Yankees1962
11-26-05, 12:37 PM
If you say so. The team hasn't made any progress since he started and the farm system is worse than it was when he started. Now he'll start spending like a drunken sailor and we'll see how he does with that.
He's overpaying because many American players won't go to Toronto for economic reasons.
AMYanks
11-26-05, 01:07 PM
If you say so. The team hasn't made any progress since he started and the farm system is worse than it was when he started. Now he'll start spending like a drunken sailor and we'll see how he does with that.
He's developed a lot of talented young players since becoming the GM. He would be one of the most pursued GMs if he hit the open market, thinking he wouldn't be is just illogical.
terminator
11-26-05, 01:08 PM
He's developed a lot of talented young players since becoming the GM. He would be one of the most pursued GMs if he hit the open market, thinking he wouldn't be is just illogical.
If JP hit the market, he would be hired as the Red Sox GM immediately.
Munson's 'Stash
11-26-05, 01:29 PM
What's the fixation with closing? We would pay "closer's money" and he would get to play with the best baseball team in the world. Also, he would probably take over for Mariano in a few years and get the position he wants. I really can't see this from BJ's side. Am I missing something? Does he not want to be in the spotlight? Someone enlighten me please.
From a statistical perspective, BP did a nice study that showed that a team's set up guy will face stiffer competition than their closer over the course of the season. The modern use of the "closer" as someone to pitch the end of the game is silly. If the "closer" is the best pitcher in the pen, wouldn't it make more sense to use him in the highest leverage situations, even if that happens to come in the 7th inning?
BJ Ryan is a good pitcher, but I think anyone who was looking for him to take over for Rivera in a year or two is really being distracted by the shiny new toy on the shelf. Rivera just had his best year (an ERA+ of 323!) at age 35! IIRC the Yankees have an option for '07; he's not cheap, but he's one of the best values in relief pitching. Trying to set someone up as his heir apparent on a large contract is foolish. Barring injury, Rivera should be an effective pitcher for years to come.
ShaneTravis
11-26-05, 01:57 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5110978
Ken Rosenthal chimes in with his opinion.
"On the list of bad contracts, this one would rank among the worst. Five years, $47 million for left-hander B.J. Ryan, a free-agent reliever who has been a closer for exactly one season and never pitched in a late-season pennant race."
"Ricciardi, who previously worked in Oakland under Billy Beane, a GM known for properly valuing players, might never live this down.
Five years, $47 million for B.J. Ryan.
Nuts."
Fabien Brandy
11-26-05, 02:46 PM
He's developed a lot of talented young players since becoming the GM. He would be one of the most pursued GMs if he hit the open market, thinking he wouldn't be is just illogical.
Well, Boston is resorting to interviews with guys like Bowden and Beattie if that means anything.
The valuable players on Toronto right now are Halladay, Vernon Wells and Chacin and both Halladay and Wells were ready when Ricciardi started and Chacin had been signed in 1998.
Ricciardi isn't the worst GM around but he's just been treading water and moves like $50 million deals to Ryan and Burnett speak of a man desperate to finally make a mark. In way they may have been better off with Delgado (and without that deal to Corey Koskie).
AMYanks
11-26-05, 03:34 PM
Well, Boston is resorting to interviews with guys like Bowden and Beattie if that means anything.
The valuable players on Toronto right now are Halladay, Vernon Wells and Chacin and both Halladay and Wells were ready when Ricciardi started and Chacin had been signed in 1998.
Ricciardi isn't the worst GM around but he's just been treading water and moves like $50 million deals to Ryan and Burnett speak of a man desperate to finally make a mark. In way they may have been better off with Delgado (and without that deal to Corey Koskie).
He has put together a nice collection of young players. While not all of them may have been his draft picks, he was the GM during their development.
If available, any team that had an opening, would put Ricciardi near, or at, the top of their list of replacements.
Fabien Brandy
11-26-05, 04:15 PM
He has put together a nice collection of young players. While not all of them may have been his draft picks, he was the GM during their development.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse but what would you point to as his positive accomplishments? The 2005 team was two games under .500 and in 2004 they came in last place. Yet I don't think anyone sees Toronto as having a young group of future stars developing either.
The strength of the team was its bullpen and the best way he can $48 million is with a 5 year deal to a closer?
AMYanks
11-26-05, 05:10 PM
I don't mean to beat a dead horse but what would you point to as his positive accomplishments? The 2005 team was two games under .500 and in 2004 they came in last place. Yet I don't think anyone sees Toronto as having a young group of future stars developing either.
The strength of the team was its bullpen and the best way he can $48 million is with a 5 year deal to a closer?
Wells, Halladay, and Hudson all blossomed under him. Chacin, Towers, Adams have all developed under him. Rios could be a potential stud. He built a very good bullpen last year.
Considering the poor ownership group that was here when he took over, and the aging core he inherited, he has done a nice job. Toronto would've been much better last year (remember, they were in the WC hunt without a big bat) had the ownership given him the money to bring back Delgado.
And the 2005 teams' pythagorean W-L was 88-74. He built a very nice team for $50M.
bostonyankeefan
11-26-05, 06:53 PM
This is not good news for us, other than the fact that he did not end up in Boston. Toronto does have a good young team, with several good arms in the pen. They gave us and Boston a very tough time last year, and I imagine that we be that much more difficult to deal with now that they have Ryan.
Fabien Brandy
11-26-05, 07:29 PM
Wells, Halladay, and Hudson all blossomed under him. Chacin, Towers, Adams have all developed under him. Rios could be a potential stud. He built a very good bullpen last year.
Considering the poor ownership group that was here when he took over, and the aging core he inherited, he has done a nice job. Toronto would've been much better last year (remember, they were in the WC hunt without a big bat) had the ownership given him the money to bring back Delgado.
And the 2005 teams' pythagorean W-L was 88-74. He built a very nice team for $50M.
Wells batter .312 in his 30 game audition before Ricciardi was hired. Starting him that following season wasn't a very tough call. Halladay had 200+ IP with an ERA in the 3s before Ricciardi was hired. Both were among the very best prospects in the sport. Hudson has a career 93 OPS+ and is likely to be dealt. Russ Adams just finished a season of 87 OPS+ and likely can't handle SS on Toronto's playing surface. Rios didn't make much progress this year (he either could be a stud or is a potential stud - if he could be a potential stud then the odds aren't good for him making an impact). Chacin and Towers had good seasons but we'll see if Chacin gets away again with allowing 80 more baserunners than innings pitched.
And the 2001 team's 'aging core' that Ricciardi inherited had Darren Fletcher as the only position player over 30 and the rotation featured Halladay (24), Chris Carpenter (26), Esteban Loiaza (29), Joey Hamilton (30), Kelvim Escobar (25) and then Steve Parris (33). The closer was Billy Koch (26).
Again, I don't think Ricciardi is terrible but I also don't see a lot of great developments that would not have happened with someone else as GM. If you look at the 2001 roster, look at everything that was done each year and see where the team is now, I don't see four years worth of building there (Baseball America had them as 15th in minor league talent in their last list) and the contract to B.J. Ryan reeks of desperation by a man who is realizing that his current plan isn't working.
AMYanks
11-26-05, 07:32 PM
and the contract to B.J. Ryan reeks of desperation by a man who is realizing that his current plan isn't working.
It could also be that, for the first time in 4 years, Ricciardi finally has money to work with.
Fabien Brandy
11-26-05, 07:49 PM
It could also be that, for the first time in 4 years, Ricciardi finally has money to work with.
I guess we'll see. He gave Corey Koskie a 3-year, $17M deal and Batista got a 3-year, $13.1M deal but that jump between 2002 and 2003 where their payroll went from $76M to $50M had to be tough to deal with.
I still think he'll regret the Ryan deal but it may or may not be desperation.
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