Cano's Errors Proving Costly to Team [-mod] [Archive]

NY152

09-06-05, 09:56 PM

Kano's errors are starting to hurt this team this late in the series. If the team makes it to the playoffs, I don't know if Kano is up to the pressure. Tonight's loss may come back to haunt the Yankees late September. The Devil Rays are acting like the Red Sox against our team and it stinks.

Actually, it is the other 9 losses to one of the worst teams in the American League that will haunt this team

2JAY

09-06-05, 09:57 PM

How bad was Cano's error? On sportsline, it said it was behind 2B.

btw, why was the run earned if it scored on an error?
Because Crawford followed with an infield hit that Cano did not charge. So even if Cano made the play earlier, Gathright scores on the infield hit. In my mind, Cano made 2 mistakes that inning and Mo suffered for it.

Jete&Tino42

09-06-05, 09:57 PM

How bad was Cano's error? On sportsline, it said it was behind 2B.

btw, why was the run earned if it scored on an error?

It was really bad. It wasn't a bad hop or anything. It looked like it got slowed down a tiny bit because it appeared to deflect off Mo's glove but it just hit Cano's glove and he botched it plain and simple.

Jete&Tino42

09-06-05, 09:59 PM

Because Crawford followed with an infield hit that Cano did not charge. So even if Cano made the play earlier, Gathright scores on the infield hit. In my mind, Cano made 2 mistakes that inning and Mo suffered for it.

I agree. Cano not charging on that ball hit from Crawford was just plain stupid. There were so many stupid plays tonight, those are by far the toughest losses to take, when people just play dumb.

wexy

09-06-05, 10:00 PM

Kano's errors are starting to hurt this team this late in the series. If the team makes it to the playoffs, I don't know if Kano is up to the pressure. Tonight's loss may come back to haunt the Yankees late September. The Devil Rays are acting like the Red Sox against our team and it stinks.

Five points off for misspelling Cano. Now its the first day of school,you'll have time to practice your spelling and raise your average.

Yankyfan

09-06-05, 10:02 PM

Cano's mind is adrift lately.

IronCaballo4

09-06-05, 10:03 PM

He needs to uppercut the ball into the Pit

hardrain

09-06-05, 10:04 PM

Cano's mind is adrift lately.

It sure is. Attention Deficit Disorder and Pennant Races do not mix. :mad:

cubswin

09-06-05, 10:10 PM

It was really bad. It wasn't a bad hop or anything. It looked like it got slowed down a tiny bit because it appeared to deflect off Mo's glove but it just hit Cano's glove and he botched it plain and simple.

Was it actually behind 2B? If so, would he have been able to get Lugo at 1st, or would he have just kept Gathright from scoring?

Sam18

09-06-05, 10:12 PM

I think Kano's problem is that his left red mechanical eye hinders his vision thus causing him more errors. Until he gets that fixes, JFR should bench him.IMO.

Moose35

09-06-05, 10:13 PM

Mortal Kombat 2 was the best one. I liked Baraka.

2JAY

09-06-05, 10:13 PM

Was it actually behind 2B? If so, would he have been able to get Lugo at 1st, or would he have just kept Gathright from scoring?
He was basically playing close to 2nd trying to keep Gathright close to the bag. Cano would have gotten Lugo out if he fields the ball. But if Cano had done that and still not charged Crawfords ball, then Gathright scores anyways a batter later.

2JAY

09-06-05, 10:15 PM

Mortal Kombat 2 was the best one. I liked Baraka.
We have a real person with that last name here and she fights you almost to the death everytime that you try to arrest her.

CptCrunch

09-06-05, 10:15 PM

"Mortal Kombat for the SEGA Genesis is the best game ever."
"I disagree, although Mortal Kombat is a good game. My favorite game is Donkey Kong."
"Donkey Kong sucks."
"You know something? YOU SUCK."

cubswin

09-06-05, 10:17 PM

He was basically playing close to 2nd trying to keep Gathright close to the bag. Cano would have gotten Lugo out if he fields the ball. But if Cano had done that and still not charged Crawfords ball, then Gathright scores anyways a batter later.

thanks

Jersey Yankee

09-06-05, 10:18 PM

Cano's mind is adrift lately.
That's why I think that Bellhorn should be brought in for the 8th and 9th inning. Cano simply has mental lapses in the latter innings which are frightening. Let him work that out next spring.

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 10:20 PM

That's why I think that Bellhorn should be brought in for the 8th and 9th inning. Cano simply has mental lapses in the latter innings which are frightening. Let him work that out next spring.

When did his last mental lapse in the late inning occur?

GimeMoMuny

09-06-05, 10:21 PM

HADOUKEN!

Ooops...

Jersey Yankee

09-06-05, 10:22 PM

When did his last mental lapse in the late inning occur?
I'd have to look it up. I just remember that it's in the 9th inning that he has these.

IronCaballo4

09-06-05, 10:23 PM

"Mortal Kombat for the SEGA Genesis is the best game ever."

A,B,A,C,A,B,B :lol:

Jete&Tino42

09-06-05, 10:26 PM

When did his last mental lapse in the late inning occur?

He had a huge mental lapse in that last series in Fenway where Mo had to get out of a bases loaded jam. So however long ago that was.

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 10:26 PM

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 10:27 PM

He had a huge mental lapse in that last series in Fenway where Mo had to get out of a bases loaded jam. So however long ago that was.

Yeah, I can see they're piling up.

27IsNext

09-06-05, 10:28 PM

Choose your destiny.

Jete&Tino42

09-06-05, 10:29 PM

Jiambi out at second trying to stretch a single
Jhonson didn't hold the lead
A Rodriquez struck out 3 times, weakly grounded out the other time
George Podasa pinch hit and made out on one pitch
Brennie Willaims shouldn't be in CF
Flattery can't throw anyone out
Riviera gave up 2 hits
Jeeter grounded into a DP to end the game (on the 1st pitch)
Soho got another runner throwed out at home.

Kano wasn't the olny prolbem.

*Posada hit the ball very hard, and it was a great play by the 3B to snag that ball.
*Flaherty's throw was damn close. Not many can throw out Crawford.
*Rivera's second hit he gave up was because Cano failed to charge the ball and make the throw to first. Crawford was just safe, and if Cano charged the ball like he should have Crawford would have been out.

CptCrunch

09-06-05, 10:30 PM

GimeMoMuny

09-06-05, 10:31 PM

Somehow Petite and O'Neil share the blame, too.That darn Clemmons.

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 10:31 PM

Somehow Petite and O'Neil share the blame, too.

What about Greg Nettles,,,,, er, I mean Craig.

Chairman-of-TheBoard

09-06-05, 10:31 PM

Actually, it is the other 9 losses to one of the worst teams in the American League that will haunt this team

Exactly.

9 losses to the DRays in 2 seasons is unacceptable, much less in 1. But, I'm sure it is because Piniella is unable to motivate his players for their big match-ups... I wonder if Torre could learn anything from Piniella's tactics -- such as getting the most from your players?

Jete&Tino42

09-06-05, 10:33 PM

Yeah, I can see they're piling up.

Yeah well when you are chasing a Playoff Spot every error matters. There is NO excuse for that botched ball tonight. None. Anyone who is trying to defend that is watching the game with blinders on.

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 10:38 PM

Yeah well when you are chasing a Playoff Spot every error matters. There is NO excuse for that botched ball tonight. None. Anyone who is trying to defend that is watching the game with blinders on.

There is no excuse.

Stryder2929

09-06-05, 10:41 PM

Animality!

ChrisV82

09-06-05, 10:45 PM

Fatality

:roflmao:

Yes, Cano screwed up, but really, when you lose to the Devil Rays, can blame be placed on the shoulders of only one person? Such a collossal failure is a team effort.

Stone Cold

09-06-05, 10:46 PM

You guys say you want this team to get younger. Cano's about as good as they come for a defensive 2B as a rookie. He's going to make some routine errors. These are the kind of errors that you have to live with. Do you want to get younger, or do you want to stay older? You have to give a little to get a little.

What's more important; winning games or getting Cano experience?

Bellhorn's alot better defensively, his intelligence and experience are key components of that. He much less likely to have a ball go between his legs in the 9th or to throw the ball into left field only to have Mo miracously bail you out in Fenway.

I think it should be seriously looked into, Bellhorn could provide alot more stability at 2B to greatly help this team. The thing that really bothered me is that after the error, Cano waiting on the ball on the very next play instead of charging it. It's hard to determine whether he's choking or just plain losing focus.

Bellhorn even showed some pop in his bat with the homer off Zito.

Quite frankly, I'm just getting plain sick and tired of watching Cano make costly errors in crucial situations. At the very least he should be benched for the short term as punishment. He needs to change his attitude and actually focus more both in the field and at the plate.

Stone Cold

09-06-05, 10:52 PM

He had a huge mental lapse in that last series in Fenway where Mo had to get out of a bases loaded jam. So however long ago that was.

What about getting doubled up about a week or so ago after walking off 2nd base thinking that the ump had called him out?

Paizon

09-06-05, 10:53 PM

Stone Cold

09-06-05, 10:55 PM

Jiambi out at second trying to stretch a single
Jhonson didn't hold the lead
A Rodriquez struck out 3 times, weakly grounded out the other time
George Podasa pinch hit and made out on one pitch
Brennie Willaims shouldn't be in CF
Flattery can't throw anyone out
Riviera gave up 2 hits
Jeeter grounded into a DP to end the game (on the 1st pitch)
Soho got another runner throwed out at home.

Kano wasn't the olny prolbem.

The thread is about Cano's errors, not all of the problems on the team. The kid messed up plain and simple. You'd think he'd be determined to make up for it, but he showed a lack of hustle on the very next play by not charging Crawford's grounder. It looks like you're more interested in making excuses for him. Cano should be held accountable for his poor play.

Stone Cold

09-06-05, 10:57 PM

This is so simple. Defensive replacements.

Bellhorn in the 9th.

It's not a great replacement, but it's better. Hopefully, Torre will learn a lesson from night.

Oh wait, Torre doesn't learn lessons.

There could still be plenty of opportunities for Cano to make errors and not charge balls in clutch spots in the 7th and 8th innings.

The most appalling thing is the overall lack of hustle and laid back approach.

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 10:58 PM

The thread is about Cano's errors, not all of the problems on the team. The kid messed up plain and simple. You'd think he'd be determined to make up for it, but he showed a lack of hustle on the very next play by not charging Crawford's grounder. It looks like you're more interested in making excuses for him. Cano should be held accountable for his poor play.

Mostly I was just making fun of the way Cano was spelled.

Stone Cold

09-06-05, 11:00 PM

Mostly I was just making fun of the way Cano was spelled.

Really, is that why you listed about 10 other things that went wrong tonight?

BTW, it's pretty bad to call out Mo for tonight to try to defend Cano. With alittle help from the kid, Mo doesn't "blow the save". I don't know what else Mo couldn't done other than pitch and play 2B, which at the rate Cano's going, Mo might have to.

jimmykey2

09-06-05, 11:01 PM

What's more important; winning games or getting Cano experience?

Bellhorn's alot better defensively, his intelligence and experience are key components of that. He much less likely to have a ball go between his legs in the 9th or to throw the ball into left field only to have Mo miracously bail you out in Fenway.

I think it should be seriously looked into, Bellhorn could provide alot more stability at 2B to greatly help this team. The thing that really bothered me is that after the error, Cano waiting on the ball on the very next play instead of charging it. It's hard to determine whether he's choking or just plain losing focus.

Bellhorn even showed some pop in his bat with the homer off Zito.

Quite frankly, I'm just getting plain sick and tired of watching Cano make costly errors in crucial situations. At the very least he should be benched for the short term as punishment. He needs to change his attitude and actually focus more both in the field and at the plate.

Are you high? If Bellhorn was so good defensively, he would still be on the Red Sox, NOT ALEX CORA!

Cano screwed up. So did 10 other Yankees in this game. To blame him for the loss when he wasn't the guy who a) let Aubrey Huff single b) let Joey Gathright steal a base c) lined into a double play d)swung at the first pitch grounding into a double play... I think you get my drift.

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 11:02 PM

Really, is that why you listed about 10 other things that went wrong tonight?

Pretty much. Check out my spelling.

Stone Cold

09-06-05, 11:07 PM

Are you high? If Bellhorn was so good defensively, he would still be on the Red Sox, NOT ALEX CORA!

Cano screwed up. So did 10 other Yankees in this game. To blame him for the loss when he wasn't the guy who a) let Aubrey Huff single b) let Joey Gathright steal a base c) lined into a double play d)swung at the first pitch grounding into a double play... I think you get my drift.

Once again, another poster missing the point of the thread. We're NOT talking about all of the mistakes that cost the Yankees tonight, we're talking about Cano's mistakes. If you want to analyze which ones were the most costly, it's probably better off being done in another thread, since this one is about... C A N O' S E R R O R S. It really is a simple concept.

YanksForLife

09-06-05, 11:10 PM

We should just start using Kellhorn as a defensive replacement in late innings.

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 11:11 PM

We should just start using Kellhorn as a defensive replacement in late innings.

I think you're missing the point of the Thread.

IronCaballo4

09-06-05, 11:27 PM

We should just start using Kellhorn as a defensive replacement in late innings.

my vote goes to Goro...4 arms? come on....nothing's gonna get by him

jimmykey2

09-06-05, 11:34 PM

Once again, another poster missing the point of the thread. We're NOT talking about all of the mistakes that cost the Yankees tonight, we're talking about Cano's mistakes. If you want to analyze which ones were the most costly, it's probably better off being done in another thread, since this one is about... C A N O' S E R R O R S. It really is a simple concept.

The problem with singling out ONE player's errors is that EVERYONE on this team makes errors. No one starts a thread about Gary Sheffield when he can never catch a ball close to the wall. No one started a thread Friday night when Matsui looked like he'd never played outfield in his life. Jeter has been making errant throws for 2 weeks now. No threads have popped up about that.

The major point from my original post was the silly idea that Mark Bellhorn is a superior defensive player to Robby Cano. That's simply not true, regardless of the good game Bellhorn had Sunday night. The secondary point was really to caution against overreacting to 1 play in a bad loss. That tends to happen quite often on this website.

Paizon

09-06-05, 11:37 PM

[Once again, another poster missing the point of the thread. We're NOT talking about all of the mistakes that cost the Yankees tonight, we're talking about Cano's mistakes. If you want to analyze which ones were the most costly, it's probably better off being done in another thread, since this one is about... C A N O' S E R R O R S. It really is a simple concept.]

Dude- Everybody gets it. The question is, what to do about it.

Edit: Most people get it. Some people, I'm just happy they can string a sentence together.

CptCrunch

09-06-05, 11:39 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bellhorn make an error in the 9th inning of Sunday's game? He's not exactly a gold glove second baseman either.

27IsNext

09-06-05, 11:39 PM

You will never win.

JDPNYY

09-06-05, 11:40 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bellhorn make an error in the 9th inning of Sunday's game? He's not exactly a gold glove second baseman either.

It was ok. He just lost focus in the 9th.

SweetCaroline12

09-06-05, 11:47 PM

Are you high? If Bellhorn was so good defensively, he would still be on the Red Sox, NOT ALEX CORA!
The decision regarding Bellhorn/Cora as the super sub essentially came down to Bellhorn's rehab assignment (and the fact that Cora is signed next year), which pretty much sealed his fate in Boston. Cora is a marginal upgrade over Bellhorn defensively, primarily because he has more range. Personally, I think it came down to the fact that Cora can fill in at SS, while Bellhorn really cannot, outside of an emergency.

He is an extremely solid defender, who turns an outstanding double play. It's not a bad idea to bring him in as a defensive replacement in a close game.

Kulish29

09-06-05, 11:54 PM

Cano's mind is adrift lately.

So's the Yankee offense against crappy teams and mediocre pitching.

dabomb2045

09-06-05, 11:58 PM

actually I think its all Joe Tourhee's fault

Stupid Flanders

09-07-05, 12:09 AM

I don't blame him because he shouldn't have been in the lineup anyway against that lefty

And yes, that was a first guess in the lineup thread

YankeeinCT

09-07-05, 12:10 AM

Of course Cano isn't the only one on the team to make errors. But his errors have been costly in the last innings and two of them have been in Devil Ray games. And when he makes them he looks like he's not concentrating. Since Torre and others keep saying how every game is important right now, surely they can see that Cano could easily cost them the wild card or division at this point. It's not that his hitting has been that clutch right now either. I'm not sure what the solution is, except for putting Belhorn in the later innings.

Stupid Flanders

09-07-05, 12:12 AM

ColombiaYanksFan

09-07-05, 12:17 AM

Actually, it is the other 9 losses to one of the worst teams in the American League that will haunt this team

I'm still optimistic. The Yankees have 23 games left. 5 against the redsox, and the last time they met, the Yankees won 3 out of 4 on the road in fenway with alot of SP injuries. With Wright, Chacon and Small pitching well, and Wang back (RJ I think will also be ok), they should be in good shape.

It's unfortunate about Mussina, but hopefully Wang will return to his great form that he had earlier this season and replace him

And Leiter too, the way he stifled the redsox this year allowing only 3 hits going into the 7th inning).

weavershrink

09-07-05, 01:04 AM

"The Yankees have 23 games left. 5 against the redsox,"

6 games vs the Sox

TheBamTino24

09-07-05, 08:58 AM

Cut the kid a break. Every miscue he makes is magnified because the Yankees didn't decide to show up this year until the end of May. He's going to be an essential part of the Yankee infield for years to come and when the growing pains subside, we'll all be very happy.

This was a game of missed opportunities offensively. 3 hits in an inning and 0 runs? Ridiculous.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 09:02 AM

5 stars

Why, thank you!

Hitman23

09-07-05, 09:06 AM

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 09:08 AM

TheBamTino24

09-07-05, 09:29 AM

bklynboy70

09-07-05, 09:30 AM

TheBamTino24

09-07-05, 09:39 AM

Cano did not cost the game for us. It was a collective effort. The DRAYs are playing like Boston was playing us last year in the ALCS (small ball and putting pressure on the defense). We NEVER play small ball. Bunch of high priced $$$$$ looking to pop one out the park. We need speed. During the championship years we never had a MVP, we never had 40+ homers, we had a TEAM in every sense of the word!! What we got now is a collective bunch of individual talent....

Disagree. We can wax poetic about "small ball," but we would have defeated the Red Sox and won the 2004 AL Pennant if not for two blown saves. The high priced homer hitters, etc. put us in position to win.

I don't see how another team playing "small ball" affects our offense. Was that why Tony Clark's hit in Game 5 was a GR 2B instead of a run scoring 2B? Was that why Rivera & Gordon both walked Millar in Games 4 & 5 which led to critical runs?

That style of play is the one I prefer; the way we played for the majority of 1996, but it is not the only way to win.

Stupid Flanders

09-07-05, 09:50 AM

Why, thank you!
oh yeah almost forgot
http://forums.netphoria.org/images/5stars.gif

KevinBaseball

09-07-05, 09:52 AM

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 09:58 AM

This is sad.

Cano defenders have to mock a spelling error, they have really hit rock bottom.

It was a joke. I'm sorry you didn't get it.

Tony53

09-07-05, 09:59 AM

I'd have to look it up. I just remember that it's in the 9th inning that he has these.

Yes that error was made last month. It was a throwing error and the runner eventually came around to score. He rushed the throw even though it was a slow runner. I believe it was against the DRays. That error and the one last night are the only 2 he has made since the beginning of July, so he hasn't played that badly, the errors have just been magnified by the timing.

Everyone is saying that he should have charged Crawford's ball in the ninth. It was hit up the middle. He was almost behind the bag when he fielded it, so how was he supposed to charge that?

Chesbro41

09-07-05, 10:04 AM

It was a joke. I'm sorry you didn't get it.

There's no joking...There's no joking in baseball!

C'mon JDP, I thought you knew better!

KevinBaseball

09-07-05, 10:05 AM

It was a joke. I'm sorry you didn't get it.

Yes, it certainly was a joke.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 10:06 AM

Yes, it certainly was a joke.

It's ok. You don't have to like me KevinBaseball. Few do.

Stupid Flanders

09-07-05, 10:08 AM

It's ok. You don't have to like me KevinBaseball. Few do.
dude, that's Kevin Frickin' Baseball you're talking to, man

Hitman23

09-07-05, 10:09 AM

Yes, it certainly was a joke.wow.... dude relax. I know we're having a serious discussion but not all of us are that intense that we can't crack a joke now and then.

As far as being a "Cano defender", I'd like to know what's wrong with defending a 22 year old kid who came to the big show on the most pressure filled team at the worst time possible? And has done what he's done? the kid has a mental toughness and when he irons out his issues he's gonna be an all star.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 10:14 AM

As far as being a "Cano defender", I'd like to know what's wrong with defending a 22 year old kid who came to the big show on the most pressure filled team at the worst time possible? And has done what he's done? the kid has a mental toughness and when he irons out his issues he's gonna be an all star.

It is my opinion that he isn't making errors because of insufficient talent, he is making errors because of mental lapses.

Straight up physical errors are frustrating, but mistakes made due to lack of attention, or what sometimes seems to be a lazy disposition, are inexcusable.

CUJeterFan

09-07-05, 10:19 AM

Mortal Kombat 2 was the best one. I liked Baraka.

Nahh, Kitana was bangin

yankeebot

09-07-05, 10:22 AM

It is my opinion that he isn't making errors because of insufficient talent, he is making errors because of mental lapses.

Straight up physical errors are frustrating, but mistakes made due to lack of attention, or what sometimes seems to be a lazy disposition, are inexcusable.
Agreed but don't you think some of the mental lapses may be due to stress and fatigue vs a lack of attention or lazy disposition?

Chesbro41

09-07-05, 10:22 AM

It's ok. You don't have to like me KevinBaseball. Few do.

I like you :D

Chesbro41

09-07-05, 10:25 AM

Agreed but don't you think some of the mental lapses may be due to stress and fatigue vs a lack of attention or lazy disposition?

Some of them may be due to stress and fatigue. The major league season is longer than the minors so he's automatically going to be playing more games than he has before. Plus he really hasn't gotten much time off lately. However, I think it's also due to the fact that he is a young kid. Errors happen and mental ones can be extremely frustrating. Hopefully he grows out of this and its not something we'll be dealing with his whole career,

Hitman23

09-07-05, 10:27 AM

It is my opinion that he isn't making errors because of insufficient talent, he is making errors because of mental lapses.

Straight up physical errors are frustrating, but mistakes made due to lack of attention, or what sometimes seems to be a lazy disposition, are inexcusable.But those mistakes are fixable. If he flat out didn't have the talent, I'd be worried.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 10:39 AM

But those mistakes are fixable.

Like Soriano?

Jasbro

09-07-05, 10:40 AM

Anything Cano is doing wrong right now is to be expected. We may not like it but it's part of what we have to go through. I would be alarmed if I thought it would never change, but considering what he actually has contributed to this team at such an early part of his career, I can look past mistakes as frustrating as they are. If the frequency of the mistakes does not improve over the next couple of years then I'll worry.

This is one of the biggest problem with NY fans. They want young, but they want young and perfect. And it's simply not going to happen. This is why players start to feel immense pressure and may start to fail completely.

I agree with you -- to a point. Rookie mistakes are to be expected. But improvement "over the next couple of years" is unacceptable.

I slammed Cano earlier in the season for his apparent lackadaisical approach, then came around to strongly support him as he made very impressive strides.

What is still very disconcerting about him though is that despite his very, very solid contributions over the course of the season, he seems to completely lose mental focus at times. And too often, these mental errors happen at crucial times.

He has enormous talent. But this is a pennant race. It is not April or May or June. He should be over his initial rookie mindset and at the very least be locked in mentally.

Bad decisions will happen with any rookie at any time over the course of the year, and might even continue into a sophmore year. But his problem isn't in making bad, rookie decisions. It is in not paying enough attention, and not always giving 100% effort.

And that is inexcusable for anyone, regardless of their experience.

DontHateOnNumber2

09-07-05, 10:43 AM

It was ok. He just lost focus in the 9th.

That's understandable that a split-second from his mind being adrift a bang-bang play was lost. It happens to a lot of the younger players, just check out Jose Reyes. It pissed me off, but it's understandable. If I was out there I'd zone out trying to believe I was on the Yankee Stadium infield as a player.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 10:45 AM

Like Soriano?touche....

I'm not sure if Soriano just couldn't comprehend his mistakes and what he was doing wrong or just refused to. I don't see that in Cano. Just a hunch, nothing to prove that, I just see something different in him. There's only so many times you can tell Soriano to stop watching his moonshots or stop swinging at the slider 6 inches outside.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 10:47 AM

I would much rather have a player in the field with diminished skills and 110% focus and effort than a brilliantly talented player with 75% focus and effort.

Which is why players like Bernie Williams still get so much playing time in the heat of a pennant race. Winning teams need players with the experience and fortitude to bring all of whatever they may have to the field every play of every game. Even if their ceiling is not nearly as high as those who are not trying as hard.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 10:47 AM

That's understandable that a split-second from his mind being adrift a bang-bang play was lost. It happens to a lot of the younger players, just check out Jose Reyes. It pissed me off, but it's understandable. If I was out there I'd zone out trying to believe I was on the Yankee Stadium infield as a player.

I was talking about Bellhorn's play on Sunday night.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 10:47 AM

But his problem isn't in making bad, rookie decisions. It is in not paying enough attention, and not always giving 100% effort.Not that I disagree, but I've been hearing this alot. Why do you, or anyone, really feel he's not giving 100%? I think he knows what is on the line and that is not acceptable. He's gotta be smarter then that.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 10:49 AM

Like Soriano? No, he lacks the arrogance.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 10:50 AM

Jasbro

09-07-05, 10:51 AM

Not that I disagree, but I've been hearing this alot. Why do you, or anyone, really feel he's not giving 100%? I think he knows what is on the line and that is not acceptable. He's gotta be smarter then that.

A person who is giving 100% does not aimlessly drift off of second base after being called safe.

A person who is giving 100% does not fail to charge a ground ball hit by one of the fastest runners in the game.

Not focusing is not giving 100%. If he knows what is on the line and is smarter than that, then why does he continue to fail to focus?

Jasbro

09-07-05, 10:52 AM

I agree. Bernie is always quite focused. He needs to be playing CF every game.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that there is a lot to be said for having a lesser talented player on the field who will give all that he has versus having a brilliantly talented player on the field who does not pay attention to the game.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 10:52 AM

touche....

I'm not sure if Soriano just couldn't comprehend his mistakes and what he was doing wrong or just refused to. I don't see that in Cano. Just a hunch, nothing to prove that, I just see something different in him. There's only so many times you can tell Soriano to stop watching his moonshots or stop swinging at the slider 6 inches outside.

It just seems to me, when looking at what I have seen from players over the years, that players who have an issue with mental errors, as opposed to physical ones, DO NOT ever correct these issues sufficiently.

In fact, I would say that players that commit mental errors are MUCH more troubling than those that commit physical errors.

Correcting a physical error problem is a matter of changing the way your body moves.

Correcting a mental error problem is a matter of changing the way you think and the person you are.

Look at Big Rube- it took him, what, FIFTEEN YEARS to address his issues?

ryanm1058123

09-07-05, 10:54 AM

A person who is giving 100% does not aimlessly drift off of second base after being called safe.

A person who is giving 100% does not fail to charge a ground ball hit by one of the fastest runners in the game.

Not focusing is not giving 100%. If he knows what is on the line and is smarter than that, then why does he continue to fail to focus?

Umm, how about rookie mistakes? He thought he was out the first time, and #2 is just a fielding error at a horrible time to make it. Give me a break. He gives 100% every time he goes out there.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 10:54 AM

No, he lacks the arrogance.

I would suggest that arrogance is the very reason for his problems.

It was a problem when he first came up, then subsided during the middle months of the season. But it appears to be rearing its ugly head once again.

I hope Sierra or one of the other vets can slap it back out of him again. Soon.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 10:54 AM

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that there is a lot to be said for having a lesser talented player on the field who will give all that he has versus having a brilliantly talented player on the field who does not pay attention to the game.

You said you want a player out there with 100% focus. That's why Bernie gets a lot of playing time.

Edit:
Oops sorry, you said 110% focus.

WHIP

09-07-05, 10:55 AM

Correcting a mental error problem is a matter of changing the way you think and the person you are.

Look at Big Rube- it took him, what, FIFTEEN YEARS to address his issues?

What's the problem? This is just another reason why we should exclusively sign aging veterans!

Hitman23

09-07-05, 10:55 AM

A person who is giving 100% does not aimlessly drift off of second base after being called safe.

A person who is giving 100% does not fail to charge a ground ball hit by one of the fastest runners in the game.

Not focusing is not giving 100%. If he knows what is on the line and is smarter than that, then why does he continue to fail to focus?Good examples. I haven't seen them (been a bad Yankee fan for two weeks, wedding planning and stuff).

You don't think they're unfixable, do you?

Jasbro

09-07-05, 10:56 AM

Umm, how about rookie mistakes? He thought he was out the first time, and #2 is just a fielding error at a horrible time to make it. Give me a break. He gives 100% every time he goes out there.

I was at the game, and he was the only one in the stadium who did not hear or see the ump call him safe. And he was the only one in the stadium who didn't hear 54,000 screaming people telling him to get back to second. So don't tell me he is always paying attention.

And I am not talking about the ball that went through his legs, I am talking about the one hit by Crawford that he did not charge.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 10:56 AM

Did anyone follow him closely enough in the minors to say if these problems were apparent then?

Jasbro

09-07-05, 10:58 AM

Good examples. I haven't seen them (been a bad Yankee fan for two weeks, wedding planning and stuff).

You don't think they're unfixable, do you?

I sure hope they are fixable, because I love his ability.

It is just maddening to see such a talent squandered by lack of focus. Physical errors and bad decisions have to be tolerated in a young player. But lack of focus and/or effort cannot be.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 10:59 AM

Correcting a physical error problem is a matter of changing the way your body moves.

Correcting a mental error problem is a matter of changing the way you think and the person you are.I think it's probably due to a lack of complete confidence. You gotta understand his position. The kid is called up to fill a position on ateam on the verge of downfall. All eyes on him. He contributes. Now he's the next coming of Christ. He makes a few big mistakes and the pressure gets to his head.

This is what I mean about people getting off his back. Every mistake makes it tougher to work through because of the exposure. Not that I don't think he shouldn't be accountable, but IMO, we shoudl give him room. I know it's a pennant race right now and I hate that it happens. But we have to give him some room. At least IMO. He has exceeded any expectations I've had of him since he's been brought up. I don't think his mental errors will be that tough to fix if we allow him to gain some confidence instead of tearing him down for mistakes.

off to lunch, will be back after 1.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:00 AM

What's the problem? This is just another reason why we should exclusively sign aging veterans!

No, its the reason why we should jetison the likes of Alfonso Soriano.

WHIP

09-07-05, 11:01 AM

No, its the reason why we should jetison the likes of Alfonso Soriano.

Sarcasm :)

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:01 AM

Did anyone follow him closely enough in the minors to say if these problems were apparent then?

From what I've read, they were.

ryanm1058123

09-07-05, 11:02 AM

I was at the game, and he was the only one in the stadium who did not hear or see the ump call him safe. And he was the only one in the stadium who didn't hear 54,000 screaming people telling him to get back to second. So don't tell me he is always paying attention.

And I am not talking about the ball that went through his legs, I am talking about the one hit by Crawford that he did not charge.

Fact is, he's a terrific defensive 2B who makes mental errors at times, and over time, these problems will be fixed. He has a lot of range - and he's going to make rookie mistakes at times. You want younger players? Aside from the rare example (Jeter), most rookies play exactly like they are - rookies. Or we could just eliminate this problem by trading away Cano for Jamie Moyer.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:02 AM

Sarcasm :)

Damn! :lol:

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:04 AM

Fact is, he's a terrific defensive 2B who makes mental errors at times, and over time, these problems will be fixed.

Show me a player who had problems with mental errors and laziness that fixed his problems sufficiently (I'm serious; I tried to think of one and couldn't...except for Big Rube).

ryanm1058123

09-07-05, 11:05 AM

Show me a player who had problems with mental errors and laziness that fixed his problems sufficiently (I'm serious; I tried to think of one and couldn't...except for Big Rube).

Just because his style of fielding is lazyness(yes, he makes it look very easy), does not mean he's lazy. And every rookie makes mental errors. It's just that simple.

Yankees1962

09-07-05, 11:08 AM

Show me a player who had problems with mental errors and laziness that fixed his problems sufficiently (I'm serious; I tried to think of one and couldn't...except for Big Rube).
I don't think he's lazy, it's more like him being nonchalant in making some plays.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:10 AM

Just because his style of fielding is lazyness(yes, he makes it look very easy), does not mean he's lazy. And every rookie makes mental errors. It's just that simple.

Sure, a rookie can make mental errors, but it is those that seem to be born of laziness or lack of attention that are highly problematic.

I can't think of anyone that has overcome making mental errors the likes of his walking off 2nd base play or making a lazy throw to first.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:11 AM

I don't think he's lazy, it's more like him being nonchalant in making some plays.

On a baseball field that equals laziness.

ryanm1058123

09-07-05, 11:12 AM

Sure, a rookie can make mental errors, but it is those that seem to be born of laziness or lack of attention that are highly problematic.

I can't think of anyone that has overcome making mental errors the likes of his walking off 2nd base play or making a lazy throw to first.

I don't understand the laziness complex. You honestly think Robinson Cano is lazy? You do know that it takes at least 5 years(in Robinson's case) of working your ass off night in, night out to make it to the major leagues. He's going to make rookie mistakes - every rookies does. Just the style of fielding that Robbie has makes it look like he's lazy, in which he's not.

ryanm1058123

09-07-05, 11:13 AM

On a baseball field that equals laziness.

How does that equal laziness? It's his style of fielding. He makes it look easy.

Yankees1962

09-07-05, 11:19 AM

On a baseball field that equals laziness.
Then I guess players like Ricky Henderson and Reggie Jackson were lazy too.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 11:19 AM

Can he at least teach the other infielders and his replacement at 2B how to properly apply a tag before he gets traded for Terry Mulholland.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:30 AM

I don't understand the laziness complex. You honestly think Robinson Cano is lazy? You do know that it takes at least 5 years(in Robinson's case) of working your ass off night in, night out to make it to the major leagues. He's going to make rookie mistakes - every rookies does. Just the style of fielding that Robbie has makes it look like he's lazy, in which he's not.

Being lazy isn't necessarily not caring as some seem to think I am suggesting- it can also be a lack of preperation or attention to what is going on around the player.

In my opinion Robinson has his moments when he hasn't prepared himself fully and/or isn't totally cognizant of what is going on around him.

Unless he has some medical issue like ADHD, that is laziness.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 11:31 AM

I don't understand the laziness complex. You honestly think Robinson Cano is lazy? You do know that it takes at least 5 years(in Robinson's case) of working your ass off night in, night out to make it to the major leagues. He's going to make rookie mistakes - every rookies does. Just the style of fielding that Robbie has makes it look like he's lazy, in which he's not.

Nobody is questioning whether or not he physically works hard or whether he physically prepares off the field. The question is whether or not he MENTALLY works hard ON the field.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 11:32 AM

Then I guess players like Ricky Henderson and Reggie Jackson were lazy too.

At times they were. And they did not reach their full potentials as players as a result, despite their great accomplishments.

But let's not elect Robbie into the Hall just yet...

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:32 AM

Then I guess players like Ricky Henderson and Reggie Jackson were lazy too.

Well Rickey might be my all time favorite player, but he was ABSOLUTELY lazy at times in the field.

He had the talent to make teams deal with it, though.

Manny is the same way.

Soriano is to a degree as well.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 11:33 AM

Nobody is questioning whether or not he physically works hard or whether he prepares off the field. The question is whether or not he MENTALLY works hard ON the field. "Mental laziness" - now that seems an accurate description!

Jasbro

09-07-05, 11:35 AM

"Mental laziness" - now that seems an accurate description!

Absolutely.

Yogi

09-07-05, 11:37 AM

Because Crawford followed with an infield hit that Cano did not charge. So even if Cano made the play earlier, Gathright scores on the infield hit. In my mind, Cano made 2 mistakes that inning and Mo suffered for it.

The first ball looked like it either went off the pitchers glove or hit on the back of the mound. Whatever happened it slowed it down a bit and that appeared to throw Cano's timing off. Add to that he was dodging back and forth towards second trying to keep the runner close. It was a high hop tha the let play him. He simply muffed it but Cano is a rookie and he is going to make mistakes.

I don't think he had a chance on the second ball. First of all Crawford is very fast and second the ball was hit to his right. IMHO, it was one of those plays that if he pulled it off you would be seeing in the replays for the rest of the season.

ryanm1058123

09-07-05, 11:37 AM

Yankees1962

09-07-05, 11:43 AM

At times they were. And they did not reach their full potentials as players as a result, despite their great accomplishments.

But let's not elect Robbie into the Hall just yet...
Now how did we get from talking about Cano being lazy and showing other players who were nonchalant on the field of play to him being elected to the Hall?

Yankees1962

09-07-05, 11:46 AM

It's funny that when any other player makes the same errors the Cano makes, it is just an error. When Cano makes the error, it's mental laziness. That play walking off of 2nd base is a fluke. It won't happen again.
You got to remember what this forum is all about, it's about dissecting each player's actions and the manager's decisions to the extreme.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 11:46 AM

It's funny that when any other player makes the same errors the Cano makes, it is just an error. When Cano makes the error, it's mental laziness. That play walking off of 2nd base is a fluke. It won't happen again.

Nope. Not true.

When Sheff makes an error like that its laziness.

Or does he just play flyballs off his shoulder because he has a non-chalant style?

yankeebot

09-07-05, 11:48 AM

It's funny that when any other player makes the same errors the Cano makes, it is just an error. When Cano makes the error, it's mental laziness. That play walking off of 2nd base is a fluke. It won't happen again.
It is not any one play but an accumulation of recent plays combined with his play when first called up. I don't really think it is a problem but certainly deserves watching (and therefore discussing!).

Jasbro

09-07-05, 11:55 AM

Now how did we get from talking about Cano being lazy and showing other players who were nonchalant on the field of play to him being elected to the Hall?

You offered two HOF'ers as a counterpoint to the nonchalance/laziness concern with Cano. I assume the reason was to illustrate that such nonchalance can coincide with a brilliant career.

My response was meant to emphasize that Cano does not yet have the body of work established to even begin to excuse his mental approach to the game, in the way that the great accomplishments of Rickey and Reggie offset their occasional bouts of laziness over the course of their careers.

BalboniReturns

09-07-05, 12:08 PM

When did his last mental lapse in the late inning occur?

Last series against TB I believe. 8th inning he threw a ball away after making a nice play in short left which led to the winning rally.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 12:08 PM

Nope. Not true.

When Sheff makes an error like that its laziness.

Or does he just play flyballs off his shoulder because he has a non-chalant style?As a seasoned veteran, the type of effort Sheff seems to put out in the field is aggravating. I hate it. But his offense is incredible and he does have an arm people respect. Hard to come down on the guy.

Yankees1962

09-07-05, 12:11 PM

You offered two HOF'ers as a counterpoint to the nonchalance/laziness concern with Cano. I assume the reason was to illustrate that such nonchalance can coincide with a brilliant career.

My response was meant to emphasize that Cano does not yet have the body of work established to even begin to excuse his mental approach to the game, in the way that the great accomplishments of Rickey and Reggie offset their occasional bouts of laziness over the course of their careers.
My reasoning was to show two former Yankee players that all of us are aware of that were nonchalant in their on field actions and that's it.

Tony53

09-07-05, 12:14 PM

It is not any one play but an accumulation of recent plays combined with his play when first called up. I don't really think it is a problem but certainly deserves watching (and therefore discussing!).

What was wrong with his style of play when he came up? I don't seem to recall anything bad about it in an "attitude" sense. In fact I remember comments by Torre and Jeter saying how relaxed and confident he was. I'd rather have that attitude than a player who is in awe of the yankees and succombs to the pressure.

Regarding his fielding, it has improved significantly over the course of the season. He has 10 errors before the all start game--a little over 2 months of playing time. Since the All Star game--about 2 months of playing time he has made 3 errors---the throwing error against Boston, the throwing error against Tampa Bay last month and last night's fielding error. The one against Boston didn't cost the Yanks anything, while the last 2 came at critical times in close games. Still his play over the second half of the season amounts to less then 10 errors in a full season, not bad for a rookie.

I still don't get why everyone is harping on the Crawford play. It was NOT a play infront of him that he could charge, it was a play up the middle. He was almost behind second base when he got to that ball. How do you charge that? If you think you can charge that, then maybe you should be playing professional baseball. I think he has come in on balls fine and has gone back on ball almost as well as Jeter. I think his range to both his left and right are the weaker aspects of his defense. Sometimes I question where he is playing, but if the manager doesn't like his field position then he should move him.

goin for 27

09-07-05, 12:16 PM

Cano is in a bit over his head as he should be. He is 22 years old, just a baby.

I would expect experience to sharpen up his skills. It is easy to say that he should just make plays, he has not had many real pressure situations under his belt. He will improve.

That said, I have NO problem substituting late for defense. Bellhorn is very steady, and has experience. I don't think it would shatter Cano's confidence, just explain why.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 12:26 PM

My reasoning was to show two former Yankee players that all of us are aware of that were nonchalant in their on field actions and that's it.

OK. Then if that's all your non sequitur was, my response to it should have been pretty clear, yes?

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 12:28 PM

The problem with singling out ONE player's errors is that EVERYONE on this team makes errors. No one starts a thread about Gary Sheffield when he can never catch a ball close to the wall. No one started a thread Friday night when Matsui looked like he'd never played outfield in his life. Jeter has been making errant throws for 2 weeks now. No threads have popped up about that.

The major point from my original post was the silly idea that Mark Bellhorn is a superior defensive player to Robby Cano. That's simply not true, regardless of the good game Bellhorn had Sunday night. The secondary point was really to caution against overreacting to 1 play in a bad loss. That tends to happen quite often on this website.

This is the second time I've seen Cano make errors with Mo in there. One thing's for certain, Mo doesn't deserve a blown save, the 9th inning was on Cano. If he makes those plays like any competent 2B should, Mo doesn't give up any runs.

It seems to either be an overall lack of focus or that the pressure is getting to him. Either way, I think the experienced Bellhorn would make a much better option at 2B right now.

jimmykey2

09-07-05, 12:32 PM

This is the second time I've seen Cano make errors with Mo in there. One thing's for certain, Mo doesn't deserve a blown save, the 9th inning was on Cano. If he makes those plays like any competent 2B should, Mo doesn't give up any runs.

It seems to either be an overall lack of focus or that the pressure is getting to him. Either way, I think the experienced Bellhorn would make a much better option at 2B right now.

The runner got into scoring position before Cano even touched the ball. Blaming him completely is just wrong. The last time I saw Mo blow a game the problem was Eduardo Perez taking the ball over the wall. It's VERY hard to blame 1 player for a loss.

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 12:33 PM

wow.... dude relax. I know we're having a serious discussion but not all of us are that intense that we can't crack a joke now and then.

As far as being a "Cano defender", I'd like to know what's wrong with defending a 22 year old kid who came to the big show on the most pressure filled team at the worst time possible? And has done what he's done? the kid has a mental toughness and when he irons out his issues he's gonna be an all star.

That doesn't mean the Yankees have to throw away games now at the expense of developing Cano.

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 12:35 PM

The runner got into scoring position before Cano even touched the ball. Blaming him completely is just wrong. The last time I saw Mo blow a game the problem was Eduardo Perez taking the ball over the wall. It's VERY hard to blame 1 player for a loss.

And he scored once the ball when between Cano's legs. If Cano shows some hustle and charges the ball, Crawford's out at first and the run doesn't score.

Mo did his job, Cano did not.

Maybe next time the umps will allow Mo to pitch from 2B so he doesn't have to worry about Cano blowing the game for him.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 12:37 PM

That doesn't mean the Yankees have to throw away games now at the expense of developing Cano.No, they don't. But what they are going to have to do is deal with what happens for the time being and make up for it in other ways. The offense is more then capable of doing that.

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 12:39 PM

What was wrong with his style of play when he came up? I don't seem to recall anything bad about it in an "attitude" sense. In fact I remember comments by Torre and Jeter saying how relaxed and confident he was. I'd rather have that attitude than a player who is in awe of the yankees and succombs to the pressure.

Regarding his fielding, it has improved significantly over the course of the season. He has 10 errors before the all start game--a little over 2 months of playing time. Since the All Star game--about 2 months of playing time he has made 3 errors---the throwing error against Boston, the throwing error against Tampa Bay last month and last night's fielding error. The one against Boston didn't cost the Yanks anything, while the last 2 came at critical times in close games. Still his play over the second half of the season amounts to less then 10 errors in a full season, not bad for a rookie.

I still don't get why everyone is harping on the Crawford play. It was NOT a play infront of him that he could charge, it was a play up the middle. He was almost behind second base when he got to that ball. How do you charge that? If you think you can charge that, then maybe you should be playing professional baseball. I think he has come in on balls fine and has gone back on ball almost as well as Jeter. I think his range to both his left and right are the weaker aspects of his defense. Sometimes I question where he is playing, but if the manager doesn't like his field position then he should move him.

Is it really to the point where players can just do no wrong? Let's not hold him accountable for making mistakes, let's make every possible excuse in the book!

Watch the play again; then watch it a few more times. It was a slow hit ball that Cano easily could've charged, which would've allowed him to throw Crawford out.

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 12:40 PM

No, they don't. But what they are going to have to do is deal with what happens for the time being and make up for it in other ways. The offense is more then capable of doing that.

I think Torre should've benched him right on the spot last night. Teach him a lesson to make sure it doesn't happen again!

Hitman23

09-07-05, 12:41 PM

Is it really to the point where players can just do no wrong? Let's not hold him accountable for making mistakes, let's make every possible excuse in the book!

Watch the play again; then watch it a few more times. It was a slow hit ball that Cano easily could've charged, which would've allowed him to throw Crawford out.You're confusing accountability with patience. No one is saying he's not accountable for the mistakes he makes. He is 100%. But it still needs to be tolerated, for now. yes, bad timing.... pennant race. but you can't expect the guy to be Alomar in his first season. Especially in the biggest pressure filled environment a baseball player could ever have to go through. It's a near impossible request.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 12:45 PM

I think Torre should've benched him right on the spot last night. Teach him a lesson to make sure it doesn't happen again!

Jeter grounded into a double play on the first pitch to end the game. Should he have tried to work the count? Should he be benched today?

Sillycon

09-07-05, 12:45 PM

This is one of the biggest problem with NY fans. They want young, but they want young and perfect. And it's simply not going to happen. This is why players start to feel immense pressure and may start to fail completely.

Well, not perfect. BUT I do want him to make the routine plays. Even rookies should be able to make all the routine plays.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 12:47 PM

Well, not perfect. BUT I do want him to make the routine plays. Even rookies should be able to make all the routine plays.

Exactly. And when the occasional rookie mistake does happen, you want it to be the result of inexperience, not nonchalance or lack of mental focus.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 12:48 PM

Jeter grounded into a double play on the first pitch to end the game. Should he have tried to work the count? Should he be benched today?
I say bench the whole starting line-up after last night's play! Utilize that 40-man roster! Teach "em all a lesson!

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 12:49 PM

I say bench the whole starting line-up after last night's play! Utilize that 40-man roster! Teach "em all a lesson!

Well, no. Bernie should still be in CF.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 12:50 PM

Well, not perfect. BUT I do want him to make the routine plays. Even rookies should be able to make all the routine plays.In a perfect world, yes. I don't hold expectations that high on anyone in their rookie season. I think one of the things that is probably hurting him is he's thinking so much about not messing up that it's causing him to mess up. Maybe his apparent lack of effort is him slowing down and trying to make one part of each play at a time. Maybe he should have charged the ball. But that also may have resulted in the ball getting thrown into the stands by rushing.

We don't know what's going through his head. Does it need to be fixed? Yes. But that's not going to happen overnight.

IMO, as far as benching players, that hurts more. If he makes an error and knows he's going to be out there the next night then he should be able to get through any trouble over time. If he's fearfull of being benched because of errors there's no telling what kind of effect it's gonna have.

jimmykey2

09-07-05, 12:50 PM

And he scored once the ball when between Cano's legs. If Cano shows some hustle and charges the ball, Crawford's out at first and the run doesn't score.

Mo did his job, Cano did not.

Maybe next time the umps will allow Mo to pitch from 2B so he doesn't have to worry about Cano blowing the game for him.

Now you're not being serious. Blame Cano for the error if you want, but how did they guy get on base in the first place? Was there a throw to 2nd (or a pitchout) when Gathright was on first?

Sillycon

09-07-05, 12:51 PM

Some of them may be due to stress and fatigue. The major league season is longer than the minors so he's automatically going to be playing more games than he has before. Plus he really hasn't gotten much time off lately. However, I think it's also due to the fact that he is a young kid. Errors happen and mental ones can be extremely frustrating. Hopefully he grows out of this and its not something we'll be dealing with his whole career,

That's why I would look at a platoon with Bellhorn. Cano would still get the majority of the playing time and will get some needed rest against lefties of which he's weak against anyway...

yankeebot

09-07-05, 12:54 PM

I agree. Bernie is always quite focused. He needs to be playing CF every game.

Well, no. Bernie should still be in CF.
Uh-huh. So, how do you feel about Bernie in CF?

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 12:55 PM

Now you're not being serious. Blame Cano for the error if you want, but how did they guy get on base in the first place? Was there a throw to 2nd (or a pitchout) when Gathright was on first?

Mo gave up one hit. That's it, the other was due to Cano's lack of hustle.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 12:55 PM

Uh-huh. So, how do you feel about Bernie in CF?

I think he's a pretty good part time DH.

jnewmark

09-07-05, 12:57 PM

Did anyone really expect Cano to keep up that performance he gave his first two months in the bigs? For a guy who was never highly touted by scouts and got average, at best, marks as a prospect,he is now being more or less what most baseball analysts expected - a serviceable 2nd baseman. Is he the long term answer for the Yanks? We'll see.

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 12:57 PM

Jeter grounded into a double play on the first pitch to end the game. Should he have tried to work the count? Should he be benched today?

Cano shouldn't be compared to Jeter in anyway. Jeter didn't make a error on a routine play and then follow it up by not charging th ball on the next play.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 12:57 PM

Mo gave up one hit. That's it, the other was due to Cano's lack of hustle.

And the one he did give up cleanly was a result of Cano being out of position.

Of course, he may have been playing the batter to pull by design -- or he may have simply been out of position.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 12:59 PM

Cano shouldn't be compared to Jeter in anyway. Jeter didn't make a error on a routine play and then follow it up by not charging th ball on the next play.

Exempt. Gotcha.

Joe Dokes

09-07-05, 01:01 PM

Exactly. And when the occasional rookie mistake does happen, you want it to be the result of inexperience, not nonchalance or lack of mental focus.

Why is "nonchalance" or "lack of focus" treated differently than lack of speed, or a lousy throwing arm. It appears Cano has many skills; and lacks some others. This makes him the same as about 99.9% of all players. The error he made in the 9th was no bigger or smaller a play than the double he hit in the 2nd and run he scored. If you want to focus only on what certain players don't do well, then go ahead, you'll have plenty of stuff to look at.

Nettles9

09-07-05, 01:01 PM

Cano didn't cost us the game. Our lack of offense did! 3 runs vs the DRays is sad! Very, Very sad!

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 01:04 PM

Why is "nonchalance" or "lack of focus" treated differently than lack of speed, or a lousy throwing arm.

Wow.

An athlete cannot throw harder than his body allows.

An athlete cannot run faster than his legs will move.

An athlete can pay greater attention to the situation around him if he chooses to.

Its the repeated decision not to that is a major problem.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 01:06 PM

Why is "nonchalance" or "lack of focus" treated differently than lack of speed, or a lousy throwing arm. It appears Cano has many skills; and lacks some others. This makes him the same as about 99.9% of all players. The error he made in the 9th was no bigger or smaller a play than the double he hit in the 2nd and run he scored. If you want to focus only on what certain players don't do well, then go ahead, you'll have plenty of stuff to look at.
When a player lacks speed or has a lousy throwing arm you can make adjustments and work with it. When a player lacks focus, it is an unpredictable problem and there is nothing that can be managed on a day-to-day basis. Again, I do not feel that Robbie has some unresolvable problem but it should not be ignored.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 01:07 PM

Its the repeated decision not to that is a major problem.
I do not believe for a second that Cano is making a decision to not pay attention.

Nome

09-07-05, 01:11 PM

I do not believe for a second that Cano is making a decision to not pay attention.
nor do i believe for a second that he is not a good fielder and i believe he will eventually be an all star. you guys are tough on a good, but young, player

andy

yankswn23

09-07-05, 01:12 PM

Posoda should have been in there to catch the 9th, he is better at throwing runners out then flattery and he knows how to catch Mo, he prob wouldn't have muffed that throw. I think Bellhorn should be used as a late inning defensive replacement as well.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 01:13 PM

I do not believe for a second that Cano is making a decision to not pay attention.

Unless he has a medical condition, he absolutely is.

This isn't to say that it is malicious in intent, but by definition he is.

If you know you have to pay attention to a situation, and you don't, you have effectively chosen not to.

I have to pay my bills every month, and if I forget it wasn't because I was practicing some form of civil disobedience.

It was because I didn't put enough effort into remembering to pay them. I certainly didn't do it on purpose, but in essence I made a decision to not pay a sufficient amount of attention to them.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 01:17 PM

I do not believe for a second that Cano is making a decision to not pay attention.

Perhaps. But he is repeatedly failing to make the decision TO pay attention.

jimmykey2

09-07-05, 01:20 PM

And the one he did give up cleanly was a result of Cano being out of position.

Of course, he may have been playing the batter to pull by design -- or he may have simply been out of position.

This is just pure stupidity. If Cano was playing where that ball was hit, you would've complained when the ball was hit right through the massive hole between him and Phillips. It was Aubrey Huff at the plate. Going on and on (plus way over the top) about 1 play in a long game is crazy. That's why this site is so crazy.

Kluivert4Ever

09-07-05, 01:21 PM

Like Soriano?

At this point we dont know.
But that is the point of younger players you dont know what the future holds, if you knew then they would not be such a gamble.

He might be like Sori and never learn or he might do the opposite. Im willing to wait and find out.

Jersey Yankee

09-07-05, 01:22 PM

Cano's errors are starting to hurt this team this late in the series. If the team makes it to the playoffs, I don't know if Cano is up to the pressure. Tonight's loss may come back to haunt the Yankees late September. The Devil Rays are acting like the Red Sox against our team and it stinks.
Like when he threw the ball away when throwing to Jeter at Fenway on a tailor-made 4-6-3 DP, this always seems to happen in the 9th inning. Between his GIDPs and his throwing errors, he gets butterflies in the 9th inning. Kinda like a guy who plays a great game of pool, but can't make a simply shot to get the 8-ball in.

I say to put Mark Bellhorn in for the 9th inning, unless we've got a 5-run lead. Youth is great, but he'll still be young in 2006. Let him work out the butterflies then. 8 innings of 2B should be good for him, and avoiding 9th inning disasters should be done.

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 01:25 PM

Exempt. Gotcha.

Yea, exempt, just like your new favorite player Cano is in your eyes.

Kluivert4Ever

09-07-05, 01:25 PM

I say to put Mark Bellhorn in for the 9th inning, unless we've got a 5-run lead. Youth is great, but he'll still be young in 2006. Let him work out the butterflies then. 8 innings of 2B should be good for him, and avoiding 9th inning disasters should be done.

That is a good solution acctually.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 01:26 PM

Unless he has a medical condition, he absolutely is.

This isn't to say that it is malicious in intent, but by definition he is.

If you know you have to pay attention to a situation, and you don't, you have effectively chosen not to.

I have to pay my bills every month, and if I forget it wasn't because I was practicing some form of civil disobedience.

It was because I didn't put enough effort into remembering to pay them. I certainly didn't do it on purpose, but in essence I made a decision to not pay a sufficient amount of attention to them.
But everyone is not you. Some people have a harder time concentrating and make more mental errors than others. It doesn't mean they have a medical condition or aren't trying. It just means their brains are wired differently. Maybe it is something he can overcome and maybe not, only time will tell. But I disagree with the reasoning that he is just not trying hard enough.

Or I could be completely wrong. Point is, we do not know what is going on in his head.

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 01:28 PM

Perhaps. But he is repeatedly failing to make the decision TO pay attention.

The results speaks for themselves: 9th inning in Fenway, 8th inning in Tampa, last week, walking off 2nd base to get tagged out.

Funny how alot of these mental lapses happen late in the games.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:30 PM

Or I could be completely wrong. Point is, we do not know what is going on in his head.Exactly my point all along.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 01:33 PM

But everyone is not you. Some people have a harder time concentrating and make more mental errors than others. It doesn't mean they have a medical condition or aren't trying. It just means their brains are wired differently. Maybe it is something he can overcome and maybe not, only time will tell. But I disagree with the reasoning that he is just not trying hard enough.

Or I could be completely wrong. Point is, we do not know what is going on in his head.

If a guy who has been noted to be unfazed and confident CANNOT pay attention and be mentally prepared in crucial situations of a Major League Baseball game, no matter how hard he tries, then he is dealing with a medical condition.

In my opinion, this is not what Cano is going through. He just seems to at times not think situations through thoroughly enough before, or even during, a play. This is a result of not putting in the requisite effort to be your best.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 01:33 PM

Point is, we do not know what is going on in his head.

The one thing we DO know that is NOT going on in his head at times is the game at hand.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 01:34 PM

Perhaps Arod could help him find a good therapist.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 01:34 PM

Exactly my point all along.

But the evidence is there that his mind has wandered in a few instances.

When that sort of thing happens, you know what is NOT going on in his head, and you can draw logical conclusions from there.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 01:35 PM

Perhaps Arod could help him find a good therapist.

While I am sure you are trying to be a little snarky here, that would probably do him a world of good.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 01:35 PM

Yea, exempt, just like your new favorite player Cano is in your eyes.

My favorite player was traded. I don't have one now.

My interest in Cano is based on the fact that the Yankees are an old team that has only gotten older in the past few years.

Cano (& Wang) are the only infusions of youth into this team. Maybe the Captain should spend some time with Cano and talk to him about focus. Maybe he has. Maybe he should do it more. Maybe it will never help. Time will tell. I just don't think the time to cast him off is any where near as yet.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:35 PM

But the evidence is there that his mind has wandered in a few instances.

When that sort of thing happens, you know what is NOT going on in his head, and you can draw logical conclusions from there.That maybe the case. But he has talent and an attempt to fix what is wrong is worth it, IMO.

Kluivert4Ever

09-07-05, 01:35 PM

The one thing we DO know that is NOT going on in his head at times is the game at hand.

One of the best known mechanisms for trying to avoid nervousity(spell?) during a game is to make the mistake of trying to fool yourself that you "dont care" and try and think about something else and therefore ease the nervousity.

jnewmark

09-07-05, 01:36 PM

If a guy who has been noted to be unfazed and confident CANNOT pay attention and be mentally prepared in crucial situations of a Major League Baseball game, no matter how hard he tries, then he is dealing with a medical condition.

In my opinion, this is not what Cano is going through. He just seems to at times not think situations through thoroughly enough before, or even during, a play. This is a result of not putting in the requisite effort to be your best.

So,the question is : Is this just the results of a typical rookie's first year in thee bigs,or is it the result of a lazy thought process that needs to be addressed ASAP ?

yankeebot

09-07-05, 01:37 PM

While I am sure you are trying to be a little snarky here, that would probably do him a world of good.
Snarky in the Arod part, sincere in the therapy part.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:38 PM

Snarky in the Arod part, sincere in the therapy part.I agree with you. There's no shame in it at all. I don't even get the big deal about A-Rod. If I were him I'd need it too trying to please us.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 01:38 PM

That maybe the case. But he has talent and an attempt to fix what is wrong is worth it, IMO.

I agree 100%. But to deny there is a problem does not help in resolving it.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 01:38 PM

My favorite player was traded. I don't have one now.

My interest in Cano is based on the fact that the Yankees are an old team that has only gotten older in the past few years.

Cano (& Wang) are the only infusions of youth into this team. Maybe the Captain should spend some time with Cano and talk to him about focus. Maybe he has. Maybe he should do it more. Maybe it will never help. Time will tell. I just don't think the time to cast him off is any where near as yet.

John, I completely agree with you.

I would like to see Cano develop here, and just as many of you want to put him into the fire to galvanize him, I would like to stress that it isn't NECESSARY for him to become a Major League everyday player at the age of 22.

He has time.

The Yankees are running out of it.

For him to be expected to work through issues during the most important 30 game stretch of the year isn't really a necessity.

We have the entire offseason to work with him, and hopefully the better part of many years to come.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 01:39 PM

So,the question is : Is this just the results of a typical rookie's first year in thee bigs,or is it the result of a lazy thought process that needs to be addressed ASAP ?

I think it needs to be addressed ASAP, because he has the talent to be an All-Star.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 01:40 PM

That maybe the case. But he has talent and an attempt to fix what is wrong is worth it, IMO.

I agree, I just don't think it is absolutely necessary to do it now. Bellhorn hitting against lefties is a more than suitable replacement.

I also don't think that it is reasonable to expect him to actually work through it now.

yankeebot

09-07-05, 01:40 PM

John, I completely agree with you.

I would like to see Cano develop here, and just as many of you want to put him into the fire to galvanize him, I would like to stress that it isn't NECESSARY for him to become a Major League everyday player at the age of 22.

He has time.

The Yankees are running out of it.

For him to be expected to work through issues during the most important 30 game stretch of the year isn't really a necessity.

We have the entire offseason to work with him, and hopefully the better part of many years to come. Amen.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:40 PM

I agree 100%. But to deny there is a problem does not help in resolving it.Well to clarify I haven't denied that a problem exists. I just don't wanna give up on him and that's a big part of my point.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:41 PM

Jasbro

09-07-05, 01:42 PM

Well to clarify I haven't denied that a problem exists. I just don't wanna give up on him and that's a big part of my point.

And to clarify my position, I in no way mean to imply we should give up on him. On the contrary, I think his issues need to be urgently addressed before this pattern of behavior becomes ingrained to the point of stalling his development. We really aren't differing too much on what we are saying.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:43 PM

And to clarify my position, I in no way mean to imply we should give up on him. On the contrary, I think his issues need to be urgently addressed before this pattern of behavior becomes ingrained to the point of stalling his development.Well then it looks like you and I are fighting on the same side. :cool:

Jasbro

09-07-05, 01:44 PM

Well then it looks like you and I are fighting on the same side. :cool:

Agreed. See my edit in the last sentence of my last post. :)

jnewmark

09-07-05, 01:45 PM

yankeebot

09-07-05, 01:46 PM

Well then it looks like you and I are fighting on the same side. :cool:
Actually, I think we all are really basically in agreement to some degree. Just frustrated.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:48 PM

I would say,that, at this point in the season,in close,or tied games,he needs to be replaced in the late innings. Of course this means Bellhorn or Womack.Well, that may work and I wouldn't be apposed to it. But here's my concern: you take him out of "when it counts" situations now, how will he react when he's finally back in down the stretch next year?

I know I'm playing devil's advocate right now. But I'm worried with the way he was thrown into the fire, succeeded and then failed. This is a critical time in his psyche I'm sure.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:50 PM

Actually, I think we all are really basically in agreement to some degree. Just frustrated.It appears that way. I'm glad too. How is anyone ever going to be able to come up again if they're gonna have to live in the shadow of Jeter and flourish from season 1 on? It's not likely that we'll see that and patience is going to have to be there.

jnewmark

09-07-05, 01:52 PM

Well, that may work and I wouldn't be apposed to it. But here's my concern: you take him out of "when it counts" situations now, how will he react when he's finally back in down the stretch next year?

I know I'm playing devil's advocate right now. But I'm worried with the way he was thrown into the fire, succeeded and then failed. This is a critical time in his psyche I'm sure.

Well,I don't think this would be done in a vacuum ; I'm sure it would be explained to him by Joe if it were to happen. Players get replaced for defensive purposes all the time in the late innings. It is also part of his education to learn that no one player is more important than the team,especially the situation the team now finds itself in. I 'm sure he will be the starting 2nd baseman in 2006,and this also needs to be imparted to him.

Joe Dokes

09-07-05, 01:53 PM

Wow.

An athlete cannot throw harder than his body allows.

An athlete cannot run faster than his legs will move.

An athlete can pay greater attention to the situation around him if he chooses to.

Its the repeated decision not to that is a major problem.

Says you. .

Some players have good "baseball instincts" some don't. Manny Ramirez is Exhibit A. Some players can't lay off the high fastball. Should that player "pay greater attention..." Why do you (and most everyone else) assume that the mental stuff can be taught anymore that you can teach Giambi to run fast or Bernie Williams to throw better, or Jeter to go to his right. I dont know that you can or can't, but I think its wrong to simply assume it can.

As another example, There's a pretty long list of talented football players who lacked the talent to learn the playbook.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 01:55 PM

Well,I don't think this would be done in a vacuum ; I'm sure it would be explained to him by Joe if it were to happen. Players get replaced for defensive purposes all the time in the late innings. It is also part of his education to learn that no one player is more important than the team,especially the situation the team now finds itself in. I 'm sure he will be the starting 2nd baseman in 2006,and this also needs to be imparted to him.Yeah you're probably right.

So the plan is he starts and in close games he gets replaced. I could live with that. Hell, maybe the Yanks will blow everyone away and we won't have to worry about it. :D

Jersey Yankee

09-07-05, 02:00 PM

Snatch, do you think there's a chance that benching him now for the season and starting over next year my make the issue worse? If there's a problem it can be worked on, but if his confidence gets shattered, is that as fixable?

This is a double edged sword.
Not Snatch, but as mentioned a page back (pg 8), I think that if he gets replaced by Bellhorn in the 9th inning, then we see fewer errors. He plays fine for about 8 innings, but in the 9th with Mo up, he seems to get careless for whatever reason. I'm not getting into his head.

I think that if he's replaced with Bellhorn, this he's still got confidence, gets playing time, but avoids that costly error. I think that by now, even he has to acknowledge that this has bugged him.

If he can give us 8 innings of solid defense and decent hitting, I'm fine. Just put Bellhorn in there for the 9th.

jnewmark

09-07-05, 02:01 PM

Yeah you're probably right.

So the plan is he starts and in close games he gets replaced. I could live with that. Hell, maybe the Yanks will blow everyone away and we won't have to worry about it. :D

I keep waiting for that to happen but, time is running out.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 02:01 PM

Says you. .

Some players have good "baseball instincts" some don't. Manny Ramirez is Exhibit A. Some players can't lay off the high fastball. Should that player "pay greater attention..." Why do you (and most everyone else) assume that the mental stuff can be taught anymore that you can teach Giambi to run fast or Bernie Williams to throw better, or Jeter to go to his right. I dont know that you can or can't, but I think its wrong to simply assume it can.

As another example, There's a pretty long list of talented football players who lacked the talent to learn the playbook.

There is a big difference between a lack of baseball instincts and just not paying attention.

Manny is an extreme example due to his all-time great hitting ability, which more than compensates for his utter lack of focus at times.

And you can afford lack of focus in a corner outfielder far more than you can in a middle infielder, especially when the outfielder brings a HOF bat to the plate.

Jersey Yankee

09-07-05, 02:02 PM

Well,I don't think this would be done in a vacuum ; I'm sure it would be explained to him by Joe if it were to happen. Players get replaced for defensive purposes all the time in the late innings. It is also part of his education to learn that no one player is more important than the team,especially the situation the team now finds itself in. I 'm sure he will be the starting 2nd baseman in 2006,and this also needs to be imparted to him.
Yeah, I agree with that, and it also works with my own view that he gets taken out in the 9th inning.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 02:02 PM

Says you. .

Some players have good "baseball instincts" some don't. Manny Ramirez is Exhibit A. Some players can't lay off the high fastball. Should that player "pay greater attention..." Why do you (and most everyone else) assume that the mental stuff can be taught anymore that you can teach Giambi to run fast or Bernie Williams to throw better, or Jeter to go to his right. I dont know that you can or can't, but I think its wrong to simply assume it can.

As another example, There's a pretty long list of talented football players who lacked the talent to learn the playbook.

There is a difference between physical traits, intellectual ability and effort.

Period.

If you had actually read my posts, you would see that I am NOT assuming that mental stuff can be taught.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 02:05 PM

Snatch, do you think there's a chance that benching him now for the season and starting over next year my make the issue worse? If there's a problem it can be worked on, but if his confidence gets shattered, is that as fixable?

This is a double edged sword.

I think platooning him to play against RHP is actually a very good solution.

It helps both him and the team because it plays to his strengths. It shelters him from failure, but doesn't completely remove him from the equation.

It allows him a greater opportunity to encounter success.

Hitman23

09-07-05, 02:08 PM

Not Snatch, but as mentioned a page back (pg 8), I think that if he gets replaced by Bellhorn in the 9th inning, then we see fewer errors. He plays fine for about 8 innings, but in the 9th with Mo up, he seems to get careless for whatever reason. I'm not getting into his head.

I think that if he's replaced with Bellhorn, this he's still got confidence, gets playing time, but avoids that costly error. I think that by now, even he has to acknowledge that this has bugged him.

If he can give us 8 innings of solid defense and decent hitting, I'm fine. Just put Bellhorn in there for the 9th.Sounds good to me. :cool:

Kceracerone

09-07-05, 02:10 PM

While I am sure you are trying to be a little snarky here, that would probably do him a world of good.
Not according to Tom Cruise

Hitman23

09-07-05, 02:15 PM

I think platooning him to play against RHP is actually a very good solution.

It helps both him and the team because it plays to his strengths. It shelters him from failure, but doesn't completely remove him from the equation.

It allows him a greater opportunity to encounter success.Fair enough. I think it could work. You have convinced me to back off a bit. :cool:

Joe Dokes

09-07-05, 02:25 PM

There is a difference between physical traits, intellectual ability and effort.

Period.

If you had actually read my posts, you would see that I am NOT assuming that mental stuff can be taught.

If you can tell the difference between "effort" and the "mental stuff" from watching on TV, then you've got a better TV than I do.

Notorious MOFO

09-07-05, 02:31 PM

Cano's a rookie, so I can't fault him all that much. RJ and Pavano being disappointments is the reason this team has been less than stellar.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 02:35 PM

If you can tell the difference between "effort" and the "mental stuff" from watching on TV, then you've got a better TV than I do.

Wandering off of second base after being called safe is "mental stuff" that one does not need an especially good TV to spot. "Effort" is charging a groundball or running hard down the first base line to beat out a grounder .

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 02:43 PM

If you can tell the difference between "effort" and the "mental stuff" from watching on TV, then you've got a better TV than I do.

HDTV is a wonderous thing.

Tony53

09-07-05, 02:46 PM

Like when he threw the ball away when throwing to Jeter at Fenway on a tailor-made 4-6-3 DP, this always seems to happen in the 9th inning. Between his GIDPs and his throwing errors, he gets butterflies in the 9th inning. Kinda like a guy who plays a great game of pool, but can't make a simply shot to get the 8-ball in.

I say to put Mark Bellhorn in for the 9th inning, unless we've got a 5-run lead. Youth is great, but he'll still be young in 2006. Let him work out the butterflies then. 8 innings of 2B should be good for him, and avoiding 9th inning disasters should be done.

Yes this ALWAYS seems to happen in the 9th inning. He's made THREE errors in two months. If you wanted GOD to play second we should have offered him a better contract before the season started.

Stone Cold

09-07-05, 02:47 PM

My favorite player was traded. I don't have one now.

My interest in Cano is based on the fact that the Yankees are an old team that has only gotten older in the past few years.

Cano (& Wang) are the only infusions of youth into this team. Maybe the Captain should spend some time with Cano and talk to him about focus. Maybe he has. Maybe he should do it more. Maybe it will never help. Time will tell. I just don't think the time to cast him off is any where near as yet.

And your favorite player was?

I'm never said Cano should be casted off. I'm saying Bellhorn should play more, especially as a late inning defensive replacement. The Yankees need to win now, Bellhorn is the better defender. He has a proven track record and has played a high level in the postseason (see last year). I'm not disputing that Cano isn't the long term answer at 2B, but as of right now, his development isn't more important than the Yankees making and winning in the playoffs.

Snatch Catch

09-07-05, 02:48 PM

Wandering off of second base after being called safe is "mental stuff" that one does not need an especially good TV to spot. "Effort" is charging a groundball or running hard down the first base line to beat out a grounder .

To me, unless Cano has some medical condition (I know I keep saying that, but I don't want to fault the guy if there really is nothing he can do about attention lapses), they are all evidence of a lack of effort, just manifested in different forms.

Jasbro

09-07-05, 02:56 PM

To me, unless Cano has some medical condition (I know I keep saying that, but I don't want to fault the guy if there really is nothing he can do about attention lapses), they are all evidence of a lack of effort, just manifested in different forms.

I don't disagree. I was trying to parse my words a little too finely in the interest of fairness to Cano, but your point is dead on.

mrmike98

09-07-05, 03:33 PM

Until Robinson proves me wrong, I'll question his baseball instincts and IQ.

I don't think the team is sold on him.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 03:43 PM

And your favorite player was?

I'm never said Cano should be casted off. I'm saying Bellhorn should play more, especially as a late inning defensive replacement. The Yankees need to win now, Bellhorn is the better defender. He has a proven track record and has played a high level in the postseason (see last year). I'm not disputing that Cano isn't the long term answer at 2B, but as of right now, his development isn't more important than the Yankees making and winning in the playoffs.

My favorite players are listed in my profile. I understand your point. It is one that is well supported around here. One that may even be correct.

I wonder why the Red Sox were so quick to cast off this great 2nd baseman they had.

JDPNYY

09-07-05, 03:46 PM

Until Robinson proves me wrong, I'll question his baseball instincts and IQ.

I don't think the team is sold on him.

If the team isn't sold on him they would have been wise to take one of the offers they had for him prior to the Trade Deadline.

gold23

09-07-05, 03:52 PM

terminator

09-07-05, 04:02 PM

Cano's bat is coming around again. Defensively, he's perfectly fine until you get to a big spot. Not sure if it is concentration, nerves, or simply a combination of all (product of inexperience in those spots).

I think he'll be a very good 2B. I also think they should consider late inning defensive replacements. Too bad Sanchez is gone, since Bellhorn is merely OK defensively.

Put me in the "Not a huge fan of Cano" camp. I think he will be serviceable, but hardly a star. His upside is Soriano - with probably a better glove, but less speed and power. And it seems that the he suffers from the same lack of focus that Soriano did.
And his low OBP suggests that he does not have a high ceiling offensively.

You see so many young players come in, and mash their way on for a couple a months, and then fall off. Cano's stats in the minor leagues do nothing to suggest that he is a special player.

He had 2 good months, and then the clock struck midnight. Then again, he is beginning to pick it up, so we'll see. Everyone goes through slumps - but not everyone has the OBP of Cano over the course of a season. I think he might develop more power - but patience, is another thing.

He has a long way to go before he can claim the second base position to be his.

PlsDontTearDownY.S.

09-07-05, 04:15 PM

Cano is having a solid rookie year. I know most Yankee fans are disappointed with anything expect greatness but all in all, Cano has helped our chances more than hurt them. As far as defense goes, I remember Sox fans continually complaining about Bellhorn in the field...this is not Alomar we are talking about here so unless it's vs lefties I don't want to see Bellhorn play and take plays and ABs away from Cano. I think Cano lacks focus sometimes and it's a problem but as far as last night goes the baserunning and lack of hitting with RISP was as much to blame as the rookie.

Mariano226

09-07-05, 05:29 PM

Does anybody else think that if Joe was going to make a substitution at first for defensive reasons, it should have been for Tino? No knock against Andy Philips, but Tino has proven his defensive prowess and still has a little kick in his bat, which would have been useful had the game gone into extra innings. Then, Joe could have brought in Bellhorn to play 2nd, because this isn't the first time Cano has bobbled a ball. Just a thought.

gold23

09-07-05, 05:34 PM

Put me in the "Not a huge fan of Cano" camp. I think he will be serviceable, but hardly a star. His upside is Soriano - with probably a better glove, but less speed and power. And it seems that the he suffers from the same lack of focus that Soriano did.
And his low OBP suggests that he does not have a high ceiling offensively.

You see so many young players come in, and mash their way on for a couple a months, and then fall off. Cano's stats in the minor leagues do nothing to suggest that he is a special player.

He had 2 good months, and then the clock struck midnight. Then again, he is beginning to pick it up, so we'll see. Everyone goes through slumps - but not everyone has the OBP of Cano over the course of a season. I think he might develop more power - but patience, is another thing.

He has a long way to go before he can claim the second base position to be his.

If his upside is Soriano with a little better glove and less speed and power, does that make him a .280-20-80 guy with a decent glove? If so, say hello to one of the top 5 2B in the league.

He's been very good through his minor league career, considering his advancement at levels compared to his age. He typically struggled early and then played above level for his age in the minors.

The patience would need to improve- but it is fairly common for kids in their early 20's to come up swinging.

Dr. Gonzo

09-07-05, 06:26 PM

Tony53

09-08-05, 03:46 PM

JDPNYY

09-08-05, 03:50 PM

Just wondering why there have been no entries in this thread since Cano's good game last night, where he made some great plays in the field, started a rally and continued one with a walk no less?

Think maybe everyone over reacted to one bad play in one loss again?

Well I guess if he screws up tonight the lynch mob will be back.

Good isn't dwelled upon.

K-W

09-08-05, 04:03 PM

Just wondering why there have been no entries in this thread since Cano's good game last night,

where he made some great plays in the field, started a rally and continued one with a walk no less?

Think maybe everyone over reacted to one bad play in one loss again?

Well I guess if he screws up tonight the lynch mob will be back.

Because the fact that he didnt committ an error in one game really doesnt mean much of anything, and the discussion had pretty much ended.

JDPNYY

09-08-05, 04:04 PM

Because the fact that he didnt committ an error in one game really doesnt mean much of anything, and the discussion had pretty much ended.

The discussion pretty much ended because everyone finally decided that JDPNYY was right.

yanksphan

09-08-05, 04:28 PM

The discussion pretty much ended because everyone finally decided that JDPNYY was right.

Or were you left?

You wouldn't know....

Snatch Catch

09-08-05, 04:30 PM