View Full Version : If November told us anything, Boston could have a tough time this offseason.
brosiusbuddy
11-18-04, 07:38 PM
Take it for what you will, but it seems to me that so far Boston's offseason hasn't been going as they might have hoped. First of all, as good of a player as he is, I don't think they were planning on re-signing Cabrera and now they might have to. The unofficial word was that Boston would go after Omar Vizquel or Cristian Guzman to replace Orlando Cabrera. So far, both of those players have signed else where and Boston may have found themselves in a situation where they have to sign Cabrera again, which could compromise their plans for prospect SS Hanley Ramirez.
Also, Pedro talking with NY was inevitable, but I don't think that Boston anticipated Pedro to be the one who called the meetings.
Now, I'm not sure if anyone else has the same view as me, but so far Boston has had a negative offseason. Maybe it's a sign of things to come, but then again, one big signing could change all that. You tell me. What do you guys think?
Prickly Pete
11-18-04, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by brosiusbuddy
so far Boston has had a negative offseason.
:lol:
Which team has had a good offseason so far?
Murcer'swerebest
11-18-04, 07:48 PM
You should comfort yourself with realistic notions not silly ideas like Boston going after Guzman to play shortstop. Guzman is horrible, a truly execrable hitter, one of the worst in MLB. On top of that, he's a mediocre to poor fielder. There's no way the Red Sox would end up with him as a starter. There are still many many options out there. They could trade for Julio Lugo who hit 40 doubles and was one of the better fielding shortstops in the AL. They could sign Polanco and play him at short for 1 year. There are lots of options still. Almost nothing's been determined yet.
brosiusbuddy
11-18-04, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Prickly Pete
:lol:
Which team has had a good offseason so far?
Hmm, does any team have to have a good one for another team to have a bad one?
Say you and I both wake up at the same time and walk out of our respective doors to start the day. I go wherever I'm going, no problem. You start heading where you're going and trip and fall flat on your face. I'm not having a good day, but you sure are having a bad one.
Prickly Pete
11-18-04, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by brosiusbuddy
Hmm, does any team have to have a good one for another team to have a bad one?
Say you and I both wake up at the same time and walk out of our respective doors to start the day. I go wherever I'm going, no problem. You start heading where you're going and trip and fall flat on your face. I'm not having a good day, but you sure are having a bad one.
Good point. Boston's screwed.
On the other hand, I often fall flat on my face as I walk out the door and then ended up having a fantastic day. Whereas you might make it out the door just perfectly, then get hit by a bus a minute later.
So I try not to judge the quality of my day as I walk out the door in the morning.
KDL2312
11-18-04, 07:52 PM
Lets see: Castilla and Guzman to Washington. Percival to Detroit. Lidle re-signed with Philadelphia.
I can't even think of any more signings. Thus I'd say the offseason has hardly begun. Not time to panic just yet.
As far as shortstops go, I have never heard Guzman mentioned in the same sentence as the Red Sox. Renteria, Larkin, Jose Valentin and Cabrera are all left on the shortstop market, I don't see any panic there either.
Its going to be a long offseason, thinking that the Sox are having a tough time based on what has happened in a week is jumping the gun a little bit, don't you think?
parkerstrong
11-18-04, 08:01 PM
Boston hasnt had a bad offseason yet....but hopefully they will.
Anyways, why the hate on Cristian Guzman? He is a below average offensive player (.266). But be honest, he isnt a Pokey Reese on offense. He has speed and his defense is very good. If he was a "horrible hitter and a poor defensive player" why did he just get 16.8 mil for 4 years? What game are you watching?
Guzman's career stats
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6186
Irony Of It All
11-18-04, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by parkerstrong
If he was a "horrible hitter and a poor defensive player" why did he just get 16.8 mil for 4 years? What game are you watching?
Because Jim Bowden is a horrible GM.
I don't see how the Red Sox offseason can be considered bad when nothing has even happened yet.
WiffleWOOD
11-18-04, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by parkerstrong
Boston hasnt had a bad offseason yet....but hopefully they will.
Anyways, why the hate on Cristian Guzman? He is a below average offensive player (.266). But be honest, he isnt a Pokey Reese on offense. He has speed and his defense is very good. If he was a "horrible hitter and a poor defensive player" why did he just get 16.8 mil for 4 years? What game are you watching?
Guzman's career stats
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6186
so we are now to judge players by their contract, and not the reverse? i can't begin to explain the failure in this logic.
guzman is awful. signing him for 4 years, especially when he was about to be non-tendered, is a travesty to the fans in DC.
from BP today:
"Of course, as one BP author put it, "How damning is it that you can sign Vinny Castilla to a multi-year contract and have that be the 'good' deal you made that day?" The Guzman deal is twice as long, more than twice as expensive, and easily twice as inexplicable. At least with Castilla, you can argue that Bowden was fooled by Coors Field. Guzman, however, has established beyond any reasonable doubt that he's a known quantity, a below-average player.
Since his flukish 2001, when he hit .302/.337/.477 with the best defensive numbers of his career to that point, Guzman has settled in to be a .270/.310/.370 hitter with declining speed and a tendency to miss three weeks a year with minor injuries. His last three EqAs are .236, .242 and .243; even though he's just 27, the loss of speed (steady decline in stolen bases, an uptick in double plays and a downward, if inconsistent, tendency towards fewer triples) doesn't bode well for Guzman to show improvement at the normal peak ages...
Signing Vinny Castilla and Cristian Guzman to play for millions of dollars instead is the kind of move that separates the organizations that haven't moved forward from the ones that have. The Expos are spending $23 million for service time, and that's wasted money. For a fraction of that, they could have employed Izturis, Harris, Carroll and maybe made a one-year commitment to someone like Jose Valentin, who has the kind of left-handed power that is expected to play well at RFK Stadium."
WiffleWOOD
11-18-04, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All
Because Jim Bowden is a horrible GM.
I don't see how the Red Sox offseason can be considered bad when nothing has even happened yet.
yep.
yep.
brosiusbuddy
11-18-04, 08:10 PM
Guys, let me make it clear. I didnt mean to say Boston was having a bad off season, just that so far there have been signs that might indicate one. But then I also said one signing by Boston could make me change my mind. I'm just pitchin an idea, please don't hurt me, lol
penfold
11-18-04, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by brosiusbuddy
... I'm just pitchin an idea, please don't hurt me, lol
If you're pitching anything like Heredia did last year, I'd suggest you duck!!! :evil:
IMHO, Boston's biggest problem will be their final payroll # and whether or not their ownership can live with that. I would think that most of the fanbase would want a majority of last year's team re-signed. That could prove to be very, VERY expensive. I suspect that George might be doing his thing just to drive up the signing price on a lot of Boston's free agents. We'll see....
TommyK8
11-18-04, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by penfold
If you're pitching anything like Heredia did last year, I'd suggest you duck!!! :evil:
IMHO, Boston's biggest problem will be their final payroll # and whether or not their ownership can live with that. I would think that most of the fanbase would want a majority of last year's team re-signed. That could prove to be very, VERY expensive. I suspect that George might be doing his thing just to drive up the signing price on a lot of Boston's free agents. We'll see....
Just how would re-signing last year's free agents prove so expensive? Let's take a look at the Red Sox 4 top free agents...Pedro, Varitek, Cabrera and Lowe, and compare the salaries to opening day in 2004. Pedro made $17.5 million last year, even if he signs, he will cost no more than $13 million in 2005. That's $4.5 million saved. Next, we had Varitek, who made $6.7 million in 2004. Let's say he signs for $8.7. That's $2 million more. Now we have Cabrera. The Red Sox had Nomar on opening day in 2004, making $11.5 million. So even if they give Cabrera $8 million, that's a savings of $3.5 million over Nomie. And then we have Lowe, who will probably depart and save $5 million, bringing the total savings up to $11 million, more than enough to sign Pavano to replace Lowe....it's not a matter of not having enough money, it's a matter that the Sox are very stubborn when it comes to valuations, both in years and dollars, and won't pay more than they think a player is worth.
JeffWeaverFan
11-18-04, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All
I don't see how the Red Sox offseason can be considered bad when nothing has even happened yet. Agreed. To be honest, I expect the Red Sox to have a very good offseason. After seeing the moves that Theo has made the last couple years, you got to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Out of curiosity, does anybody else think about what would have become of the Red Sox if they had gotten their wish and signed Contreras? :(
cubswin
11-18-04, 09:18 PM
only reason they would't want Cabrera back is his expected asking price
Ljberkow12
11-18-04, 09:48 PM
The Sox offseason is going well. H Ramirez is ripping up the Winter Leagues and it looks like the offer to Martinez was pre-emptive (scared many away). But it's too early to tell. If rotation winds up being Schilling-Martinez-Pavano or Schilling-Radke-Pavano, that would have to be a positive. Too early to tell.
If Varitek goes, Glaus and Matheney or Miller in. Too early to tell.
Short Stop. If they sign Larkin, they should find a way to keep Reese. But let's see what happens with Cabrera. Again, too early.
The Sox could have a rough offseason or a very productive one. I wouldn't count on Epstein screwing it up though.
Originally posted by brosiusbuddy
Take it for what you will, but it seems to me that so far Boston's offseason hasn't been going as they might have hoped. First of all, as good of a player as he is, I don't think they were planning on re-signing Cabrera and now they might have to. The unofficial word was that Boston would go after Omar Vizquel or Cristian Guzman to replace Orlando Cabrera. So far, both of those players have signed else where and Boston may have found themselves in a situation where they have to sign Cabrera again, which could compromise their plans for prospect SS Hanley Ramirez.
Also, Pedro talking with NY was inevitable, but I don't think that Boston anticipated Pedro to be the one who called the meetings.
Now, I'm not sure if anyone else has the same view as me, but so far Boston has had a negative offseason. Maybe it's a sign of things to come, but then again, one big signing could change all that. You tell me. What do you guys think?
Then you said....
Guys, let me make it clear. I didnt mean to say Boston was having a bad off season, just that so far there have been signs that might indicate one. But then I also said one signing by Boston could make me change my mind. I'm just pitchin an idea, please don't hurt me, lol
So, yes, you did mean to say that Boston "was having a bad off season" because you quite clearly stated "but so far Boston has had a negative off season". Perhaps it is semantics, but the term negative implies bad.
Moving on, I would argue that the offseason has been incredible. It is the first one in 86 years that involved a parade with 3mm fans for a World Series champtions. Not sure how it could get any better.
Moving on some more, the Sox would love to re-sign Cabrera... at the right price. While the Sox do have the second highest payroll by a large margin, it isn't unlimited. So, Theo and H/L/W make decisions based on what a player is worth. If Tek or Cabrera get more than their deemed worth, then mgmt. says "good luck", and moves on to Plan B. If we've learned one thing from Theo, he has a plan B...and a Plan C and D. Getting back to the point, they would love to have Cabrera back, and if they signed him to a (hypothetical) 3 year deal, and Hanley was ready after next year, you don't think Cabrera could be trade bait? If not, you aren't thinking about all the options.
Regarding Pedro, it would have been amazing had he NOT set up the Steinbrenner meeting. I don't begrudge him trying to get his max $, and if he thinks meeting w. GS puts some pressure on Sox mgmt. to gaurantee the 3rd year, or whatever, then I would expect him to try that approach.
The offseason has just begun. Thus far, as a Sox fan, I am loving every moment of it. It has been perfect. Not bad.
Looie #19
11-18-04, 10:03 PM
This offseason is shaping up to be worse than their 2003 and 2002 offseasons. After 2002, they whiffed on Bartolo Colon and they missed out on Edgardo Alfonzo and instead signed journeyman Bill Mueller, and then Twins castoff David Ortiz when they wouldn't pony up the cash for Jim Thome. Getting outfoxed for Jose Contreras, they were absolutely desperate, going so far as claiming a Pirates castoff Bronson Arroyo on waivers. Then last year, they whiffed on ARod, and had to keep goofy-haired Manny Ramirez. They got Curt Schilling, but word was he would have rather have gone to New York.
Theo Epstein is clearly in over his head. With all the great signings going on in Washington and Detroit, one has to think what exactly he plans on doing this offseason.
Originally posted by Looie #19
This offseason is shaping up to be worse than their 2003 and 2002 offseasons. After 2002, they whiffed on Bartolo Colon and they missed out on Edgardo Alfonzo and instead signed journeyman Bill Mueller, and then Twins castoff David Ortiz when they wouldn't pony up the cash for Jim Thome. Getting outfoxed for Jose Contreras, they were absolutely desperate, going so far as claiming a Pirates castoff Bronson Arroyo on waivers. Then last year, they whiffed on ARod, and had to keep goofy-haired Manny Ramirez. They got Curt Schilling, but word was he would have rather have gone to New York.
Theo Epstein is clearly in over his head. With all the great signings going on in Washington and Detroit, one has to think what exactly he plans on doing this offseason.
Well played...
Smiling Dave Roberts
11-18-04, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by WiffleWOOD
yep.
yep.
I agree. I do not know wtf is wrong with Bowden? Is he that bleeping stupid? Sheez! Bowden reminds me of that Bitch in the movie Major League who was trying to screw the team so she could move them out of Cleveland! Damn...he is hideous...Where did he want the team to move to?
ClemensFan4Life
11-19-04, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Looie #19
This offseason is shaping up to be worse than their 2003 and 2002 offseasons. After 2002, they whiffed on Bartolo Colon and they missed out on Edgardo Alfonzo and instead signed journeyman Bill Mueller, and then Twins castoff David Ortiz when they wouldn't pony up the cash for Jim Thome. Getting outfoxed for Jose Contreras, they were absolutely desperate, going so far as claiming a Pirates castoff Bronson Arroyo on waivers. Then last year, they whiffed on ARod, and had to keep goofy-haired Manny Ramirez. They got Curt Schilling, but word was he would have rather have gone to New York.
Theo Epstein is clearly in over his head. With all the great signings going on in Washington and Detroit, one has to think what exactly he plans on doing this offseason.
:lol:
That's it, I want Theo's head!!
Bring in Bowden!!!
RIREDSOXFAN
11-19-04, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Looie #19
This offseason is shaping up to be worse than their 2003 and 2002 offseasons. After 2002, they whiffed on Bartolo Colon and they missed out on Edgardo Alfonzo and instead signed journeyman Bill Mueller, and then Twins castoff David Ortiz when they wouldn't pony up the cash for Jim Thome. Getting outfoxed for Jose Contreras, they were absolutely desperate, going so far as claiming a Pirates castoff Bronson Arroyo on waivers. Then last year, they whiffed on ARod, and had to keep goofy-haired Manny Ramirez. They got Curt Schilling, but word was he would have rather have gone to New York.
Theo Epstein is clearly in over his head. With all the great signings going on in Washington and Detroit, one has to think what exactly he plans on doing this offseason.
Brilliant!
Originally posted by Looie #19
This offseason is shaping up to be worse than their 2003 and 2002 offseasons. After 2002, they whiffed on Bartolo Colon and they missed out on Edgardo Alfonzo and instead signed journeyman Bill Mueller, and then Twins castoff David Ortiz when they wouldn't pony up the cash for Jim Thome. Getting outfoxed for Jose Contreras, they were absolutely desperate, going so far as claiming a Pirates castoff Bronson Arroyo on waivers. Then last year, they whiffed on ARod, and had to keep goofy-haired Manny Ramirez. They got Curt Schilling, but word was he would have rather have gone to New York.
Theo Epstein is clearly in over his head. With all the great signings going on in Washington and Detroit, one has to think what exactly he plans on doing this offseason.
freakin hilarious:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
RIyankee
11-19-04, 08:01 AM
I see Boston being active in trades moreso than in FA. I'm sure the Sox will offer ARB to Varitek, Lowe, Mirabelli, Pedro, and Cabrera. If they lose most or all of these FAs, they will get a sweet cache of compensetory draft picks.
bnorris85
11-19-04, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Looie #19
This offseason is shaping up to be worse than their 2003 and 2002 offseasons. After 2002, they whiffed on Bartolo Colon and they missed out on Edgardo Alfonzo and instead signed journeyman Bill Mueller, and then Twins castoff David Ortiz when they wouldn't pony up the cash for Jim Thome. Getting outfoxed for Jose Contreras, they were absolutely desperate, going so far as claiming a Pirates castoff Bronson Arroyo on waivers. Then last year, they whiffed on ARod, and had to keep goofy-haired Manny Ramirez. They got Curt Schilling, but word was he would have rather have gone to New York.
Theo Epstein is clearly in over his head. With all the great signings going on in Washington and Detroit, one has to think what exactly he plans on doing this offseason.
HAHAHHAHAH
Word, Looie. :lol:
Frankly, I see other SSs going elsewhere as a plus for Boston. Cabrera is the best choice there; it's working out a contract that will be difficult. But I can see it happening.
Right now the high priority is Varitek. Sign him (for less than five years; I can't see five years for him anywhere) and Theo will have the rest of his ducks falling into a row. And if not, as noted, he's undoubtedly got plans all the way to Z.
Kulish29
11-19-04, 01:07 PM
2004-5 Offseason. Most boring. EVER.
It isn't even close to Thanksgiving yet, Kulish. Aren't you jumping the gun a wee bit?
KDL2312
11-19-04, 01:33 PM
Ok, it might be time to start the "If November Has Taught Us Anything, The Washington Expos/Nationals Are Going to Sign Every Free Agent and Trade for Every Available Player" thread.
Given the circumstances, it seems more relevant than this one.
SubwayFanatic
11-19-04, 02:01 PM
All of these "Red Sox are not having a good offseason... Red Sox won't be as good next year" threads reek of paranoia.
People were saying the same things after 2003, "Everyone had a career year, they won't be as good next year...." yadda yadda.
Well, that offense hit almost as well as they did in 2003, the pitching was better, the team won more games, and... they also won the World Series.
The Red Sox have deep pockets, a bright GM, and a core that consists of Schilling, Ortiz, Ramirez, Damon, Foulke, etc. coming back, which is as good as anyone's.
They will field a team capable of winning it all again next year.
goin for 27
11-19-04, 02:14 PM
So far, the Red Sox have claimed Brian Traber, which if you poke around the board, was praised by just about everyone.
They have done nothing else. None of their targeted players have signed elsewhere, so, I don't see it.
It is like saying that we are having a lousy offseason, since RJ, Beltran, etc are not in the fold, and we still have Kevin Brown's contract.
YankeePride1967
11-19-04, 02:18 PM
no one has had a good or bad of-season.
SoCal Pinstriper
11-19-04, 03:07 PM
Any Yankee fans counting on (or even hoping for) Theo to screw things up are kidding themselves. He has proven to be an adversary worthy of respect. Better to expect Boston to improve, and hope that George and Cash can address the Yankees needs successfully.
yanksphan
11-19-04, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Looie #19
This offseason is shaping up to be worse than their 2003 and 2002 offseasons. After 2002, they whiffed on Bartolo Colon and they missed out on Edgardo Alfonzo and instead signed journeyman Bill Mueller, and then Twins castoff David Ortiz when they wouldn't pony up the cash for Jim Thome. Getting outfoxed for Jose Contreras, they were absolutely desperate, going so far as claiming a Pirates castoff Bronson Arroyo on waivers. Then last year, they whiffed on ARod, and had to keep goofy-haired Manny Ramirez. They got Curt Schilling, but word was he would have rather have gone to New York.
Theo Epstein is clearly in over his head. With all the great signings going on in Washington and Detroit, one has to think what exactly he plans on doing this offseason.
Passing on Colon was probably a smart move, and Mueller has more than justifi......oh wait a minute.... :)
yanksphan
11-19-04, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Socal Pinstriper
Any Yankee fans counting on (or even hoping for) Theo to screw things up are kidding themselves. He has proven to be an adversary worthy of respect. Better to expect Boston to improve, and hope that George and Cash can address the Yankees needs successfully.
and to think he was firing wadded up T-shirts into the stands via sling shot for the Pad Squad a few years back... who knew? :dunno:
Kulish29
11-19-04, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by NYPenn
It isn't even close to Thanksgiving yet, Kulish. Aren't you jumping the gun a wee bit?
Maybe. But it's been pretty boring so far. I wake up everyday hoping to see something new about the Yankees, and what do I read? The same friggin crap that was on the net the previous day, only it's worded differently. &po'd&
yanksphan
11-19-04, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Kulish29
Maybe. But it's been pretty boring so far. I wake up everyday hoping to see something new about the Yankees, and what do I read? The same friggin crap that was on the net the previous day, only it's worded differently. &po'd&
That's not true - we went from having a 3yr/25mil offer on the table for Milton, to a deal not even being close yet. I'd say that's GREAT news!!!
WebsterMulligan
11-19-04, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All
I don't see how the Red Sox offseason can be considered bad when nothing has even happened yet.
Yep. The big deals are going to take some time to materialize.
son of mel hall
11-19-04, 06:31 PM
I'm so bored. I need to talk to my wife about it. She's a shrink.
Twelve Green
11-23-04, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by son of mel hall
I'm so bored. I need to talk to my wife about it. She's a shrink.
If you're an attorney, we're gonna have to talk about fulfilling stereotypes... :D
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