View Full Version : Daisuke Matsuzaka from the Seibu Lions may come to the US in '05
27IsNext
11-01-05, 02:39 PM
They closed that loophole because of the guy who did it who I forgot.
Hideo Nomo.
Hideo Nomo.
Thanks.
And I guess i'll settle for a 26 year old ace right hander next year. And plus then Jaret Wright will be gone for sure :D
Kulish29
11-01-05, 02:46 PM
It is a loophole, yes. But how can they stop the guy from retiring?
Makes me glad I live in the US.
ring403
11-04-05, 07:47 AM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spyanks044497798nov04,0,7144728.story?coll=ny-sports-print
Seibu Lions righthander Daisuke Matsuzaka still hopes to pitch in the major leagues this season even after his Japanese League team rejected his request to leave earlier this week. And if Matsuzaka somehow can convince his current employers to reverse course, the Yankees are expected to hotly pursue the pitcher considered by many to be the best in the Japanese League.
While the Yankees don't have an obvious need for starting pitching and aren't interested in pursuing accomplished free-agent pitchers such as Kevin Millwood and Kenny Rogers, apparently they like Matsuzaka enough to make an exception, if only Seibu will consent to "post" the pitcher, which means to offer him here for bids.
Yankees reports are extremely favorable on Matsuzaka, who went 14-13 with a 2.30 ERA and led the Pacific League in strikeouts (226), innings (215) and complete games (15).
Bloodshot
11-04-05, 09:11 AM
It is a loophole, yes. But how can they stop the guy from retiring?
Makes me glad I live in the US.
Well, you do live in a place that prevents organizations from hiring people less than 3 years removed from high school (NFL) or people under the age of 20 (NBA). For some reason, even the US Supreme Court is ok with discrimination in hiring based on age (when organizations should be free to hire whoever they want).
So, the short point is, the US is just as messed up as Japan when it comes to unfair work practices in professional sports.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spyanks044497798nov04,0,7144728.story?coll=ny-sports-print
Thanks for that article. Very interesting. Does anyone know if he hired Boras after his latest request was denied, or before?
I hope they do reverse and post him this year.
Iknowcool
11-04-05, 02:44 PM
Contretas was one of the best Cuban pitchers...yet as a Yankee he sucked. If Matsuzaka cost more than 8 mil, I'd stay away from him,
Contretas was one of the best Cuban pitchers...yet as a Yankee he sucked. If Matsuzaka cost more than 8 mil, I'd stay away from him,
That is even worse logic than the Hideki Irabu comparisons.
First of all, Contreras has done better as part of the White Sox. This is probably because they had a better pitching coach than us. Secondly he was older than Matsuzaka. Third, our scouts have seen alot more of Matsuzaka than they had of Contreras.
Yankyfan
11-04-05, 06:02 PM
Irabu was a lazy guy.He is a tough one to compare others Pacific rim players too because he was not the norm.
Matsui55
11-04-05, 06:49 PM
Thanks for that article. Very interesting. Does anyone know if he hired Boras after his latest request was denied, or before?
I hope they do reverse and post him this year.
This article IS NOT good news- in fact, it makes it tougher to get him out of Japan. The big problem with the article is that there is no "face-saving" way out of this for Seibu.
Furthermore, this story VERY much looks like a Boras plant (turn up the pressure and see what happens). The problem is that Boras does not understand Japanese negotiating- rule #1- never back your opponent into a corner without leaving a way to gracefully escape while getting what you want.
Boras appears to have done his client a major disservice by planting this article. Seibu understands quite well that they stand to get $12-15M by posting him, which will cover a great deal of this season's payroll (and they can use the help). However, they are going to view Boras' involvement as American arrogance, as well as low class by Matsuzaka, and dig in their heels.
If Matzusaka went to the Japanese media himself, it would be viewed as hardball, causing bruised feelings, but things would get smoothed over in back channels. However, by letting Boras muddy the waters, I see less chance than ever of getting Matsuzaka this year without a trusted intermediary to both sides stepping in.
This article IS NOT good news- in fact, it makes it tougher to get him out of Japan. The big problem with the article is that there is no "face-saving" way out of this for Seibu.
Furthermore, this story VERY much looks like a Boras plant (turn up the pressure and see what happens). The problem is that Boras does not understand Japanese negotiating- rule #1- never back your opponent into a corner without leaving a way to gracefully escape while getting what you want.
Boras appears to have done his client a major disservice by planting this article. Seibu understands quite well that they stand to get $12-15M by posting him, which will cover a great deal of this season's payroll (and they can use the help). However, they are going to view Boras' involvement as American arrogance, as well as low class by Matsuzaka, and dig in their heels.
If Matzusaka went to the Japanese media himself, it would be viewed as hardball, causing bruised feelings, but things would get smoothed over in back channels. However, by letting Boras muddy the waters, I see less chance than ever of getting Matsuzaka this year without a trusted intermediary to both sides stepping in.
But didn't you say after the last rejection that Matsuzaka would do something to really show his displeasure? Maybe the hiring of the heavyhanded Boras was just that.
ICEBERG18
11-04-05, 08:23 PM
But didn't you say after the last rejection that Matsuzaka would do something to really show his displeasure? Maybe the hiring of the heavyhanded Boras was just that.
Matsuzaka said, "I'm not abandoning hope. [Going to the Majors] is within my reach, I'm not going to give up easily."
Steph19
11-04-05, 08:43 PM
Matsuzaka said, "I'm not abandoning hope. [Going to the Majors] is within my reach, I'm not going to give up easily."
Was this recently?
Didn't he just recently say that he figured it wasn't going to happen this season and he was giving up until he was a free agent?
I'm rooting for him to get posted.
ICEBERG18
11-04-05, 08:55 PM
Was this recently?
Didn't he just recently say that he figured it wasn't going to happen this season and he was giving up until he was a free agent?
I'm rooting for him to get posted.
Yeah, but i guees he changed his mind. And that quote i posted from Daisuke Matsuzaka, was said yesterday by him.
Matsui55
11-04-05, 09:32 PM
But didn't you say after the last rejection that Matsuzaka would do something to really show his displeasure? Maybe the hiring of the heavyhanded Boras was just that.
Showing displeasure is the player by speculating in the Japanese media that he won't play in the Baseball World Cup, or that he should get a big raise from last season. Those are positions that one can "appear" to back down from in exchange for something (being posted), while the team gets something (tons of cash), while the face-saver for both is that neither threat takes place, and both sides get what they want.
In the Boras inspired article, where is the give that allows the team to give in without appearing to be weak, or giving in to a mere player? There is nothing there that does not look like a cave-in. Remember that the Lions must still satisfy the contract demands of their other players- if they give in to Boras' tactics, what is to prevent the other players from going hardball too?
It was in Matsuzaka's best interests to go to the JAPANESE media and issue threats/actions that he could back down from by compromise- nonthing like that exists in what Boras has done. I held out hope that Matsuzaka had better representation than this- once more, Boras harms a client to further his own goals. Boras wanted to prove that his tactics travel-to the detriment of his client.
I almost guarantee now that any thoughts Seibu might have harbored about compromise are gone after Boras' idiot stunt.
If he is posted the Yankees will surely have competition for him but no way they will let another team outbid them for his posting rights. If it is in the cards for him to become a Yankee its gonna be great seeing a bonafide ace, young, nasty stuff and good mental makeup is what I can deduce by reading all your guys' information about him. And that gyroball he throws, wow that thing is crazy.
AMYanks
11-04-05, 09:41 PM
Even if he becomes available, this guy sounds like he will be awfully expensive (I know, I know, we're the Yankees, it shouldn't matter).
Steph19
11-04-05, 09:53 PM
Even if he becomes available, this guy sounds like he will be awfully expensive (I know, I know, we're the Yankees, it shouldn't matter).
Very expensive, yes. But no draft picks and nothing to give up except money.
If he's posted, I wouldn't mind going after him. If not, no big deal. I really want to see the guy pitch, though so I hope he winds up in the MLB, if not the Yankees.
Matsui55
11-04-05, 09:56 PM
If he is posted the Yankees will surely have competition for him but no way they will let another team outbid them for his posting rights. If it is in the cards for him to become a Yankee its gonna be great seeing a bonafide ace, young, nasty stuff and good mental makeup is what I can deduce by reading all your guys' information about him. And that gyroball he throws, wow that thing is crazy.
Ever see the movie "Mr. Baseball" (Tom Selleck)? Its referred to as the "shooto" there- its really a backup slider. Not easy to control, but also not likely to get hit, as not that many U.S.-based batters have seen it before. It is also not all that common in Japan either.
Ever see the movie "Mr. Baseball" (Tom Selleck)? Its referred to as the "shooto" there- its really a backup slider. Not easy to control, but also not likely to get hit, as not that many U.S.-based batters have seen it before. It is also not all that common in Japan either.
Ahh, yea I think I understand. I have watched some video of it in slow motion and its interesting how it moves, I have never seen a pitch like that. Will Caroll said on Rob Neyer's site he taught it to a highschool kid. How much stress would a pitch like that put on his arm though?
Yankyfan
11-05-05, 09:18 AM
Like most of Japans pitchers that come here he will be on fire his first go through and then his second time around is where you'll find out how he will fare.
Like most of Japans pitchers that come here he will be on fire his first go through and then his second time around is where you'll find out how he will fare.
I don't think he relies on deception and off speed pitches as much as other japanese pitchers.
Yankyfan
11-05-05, 02:50 PM
Good point but I was making it because of the mention of the Gyro pitch.
Update on things
Matsuzaka just got a raise from Seibu that will make him the highest paid pitcher in the Pacific league. Not exactly sure if it's just a one year thing, or if he signed an extension or what.
Matsui55
12-20-05, 07:06 PM
Update on things
Matsuzaka just got a raise from Seibu that will make him the highest paid pitcher in the Pacific league. Not exactly sure if it's just a one year thing, or if he signed an extension or what.
Just a one year thing.
FYI- remember, Matsuzaka IS the Japanese team ace. If you have never seen him pitch before, be ready to see a lot of him in the baseball World Cup this Spring. You just KNOW that he has a lot to prove for ML scouts.
There appears to be some dispute over whether he is FA eligible after 2006 or 2007, but regardless, Seibu can't stop him at that point- so he has a big impression to make right now.
Believe me- the guy throws a legit 95-97, and has off-speed stuff, with control to boot. You will really like this guy when you see him in March.
Just a one year thing.
FYI- remember, Matsuzaka IS the Japanese team ace. If you have never seen him pitch before, be ready to see a lot of him in the baseball World Cup this Spring. You just KNOW that he has a lot to prove for ML scouts.
There appears to be some dispute over whether he is FA eligible after 2006 or 2007, but regardless, Seibu can't stop him at that point- so he has a big impression to make right now.
Believe me- the guy throws a legit 95-97, and has off-speed stuff, with control to boot. You will really like this guy when you see him in March.
Maybe I will watch for him. I was thinking of tuning out this Baseball classic, but I guess he would be one to follow.
Hope he isn't another Hideki Irabu!
Maybe I will watch for him. I was thinking of tuning out this Baseball classic, but I guess he would be one to follow.
Hope he isn't another Hideki Irabu!
He is better than Irabu .......... by a lot. You can ask any scouts and look up any states between them. The answer will be the same.
Just a one year thing.
FYI- remember, Matsuzaka IS the Japanese team ace. If you have never seen him pitch before, be ready to see a lot of him in the baseball World Cup this Spring. You just KNOW that he has a lot to prove for ML scouts.
There appears to be some dispute over whether he is FA eligible after 2006 or 2007, but regardless, Seibu can't stop him at that point- so he has a big impression to make right now.
Believe me- the guy throws a legit 95-97, and has off-speed stuff, with control to boot. You will really like this guy when you see him in March.
That is definitely one of the reasons I am anticipating the WBC.
The only downside is that if he mows down these guys his price could go up even higher when he comes in a year or two.
Matsui55
12-21-05, 06:55 PM
That is definitely one of the reasons I am anticipating the WBC.
The only downside is that if he mows down these guys his price could go up even higher when he comes in a year or two.
The great irony would be that if he came as a pure FA, it is likely that it would be cheaper to sign him outright. Posting for star Japanese players like Ichiro reached $10M just to negotiate with the player- it is likely bidding for the posting rights would have approached that number, plus another $21-24M to sign for 3 years.
Even with a good WBC, he would still likely only get $27-30M for 3 years, or cheaper than the posting.
IrishYankee
12-21-05, 08:17 PM
Is there any way to gauge his interest in playing for the Yankees? Our interest in him must be well known, but he's no secret. I was wondering if other teams have let it be known, without breaking any tampering laws, that they would pursue him. If so, do we have any measurable advantage? I know that culturally being overt about his preference would be construed as rudeness, but it would be nice to know.
Also, is anyone else worried about the innings he'll log this year? He is ridden pretty hard, and he'll have extra innings with the Classic.
27IsNext
03-04-06, 03:34 AM
Matsuzaka made his first start early this morning vs. Chinese Taipai in the WBC. After a K, he hit one batter, then walked the next on a 3-2 pitch that was just low. The next batter GIDP.
His stuff looked pretty nasty, but he had some trouble finding the strike zone obviously. Let's see how he does in the second. Seemed to sit in the low 90s.
27IsNext
03-04-06, 04:07 AM
In the second, Matsuzaka hung two pitches over the middle for two hits. The next batter tried to bunt, but ended up popping up to Matsuzaka. With men on first and second, the following batter hit a grounder to the shortstop, who threw the runner out at second, but ended up throwing to third since he couldn't turn the double play. The guy was safe, however. After that, the ball slipped out of Matsuzaka's hands--a boch, scoring one for Chinese Taipei. The next batter flew out to CF.
Two interesting things of note, according to TV commentators:
1.) Matsuzaka apparantly threw over 300 pitches in a bullpen session not too long ago (I'd like to say the announcer said it was in Feburary). I wonder if fatigue is contributing to him getting hit tonight, as the announcer said he was hit pretty hard in a exhibition game recently. Matsuzaka is throwing hard, but only has one K.
2.) Far East pitchers are complaining about the baseballs used in the classic. The announcer said the ones used are very similar to U.S. baseballs. The general complaint is that they are too slick. Obviously, this was pointed out when the ball slipped out of Matsuzaka's hands causing the boch. I'm not sure of the differences between the baseballs used in the Japan big leagues and their MLB counterparts, but this should raise some red flags--can Matsuzaka, or any Japanese pitcher wanting to come over to the States, adjust to this?
One more thing: this Japan team is hitting lights out vs. Taipei.
27IsNext
03-04-06, 04:23 AM
1-2-3 third inning for Daisuke. A pop-up in fowl territory, groundout to third baseman, and a pop-up to the first base side. I'm sick, and really need some sleep, so here's my impression after the first three innings:
His stuff is filthy, but he was obviously a little eratic in the first two innings. Seemed to settle down in the third. His breaking ball is absolutely sick. Apparantly he's sitting in the low 90s--this is what was said in the first inning. Since I've read on here before he usually sits in the mid to upper 90s, I wonder if the slight drop in velocity is contributing to his lack of Ks tonight. I'll say this, he certainly isn't afraid to go after the batters. I personally think he could be successful in the States with his repertoire, but he'd need to be shut down for a while for some much-needed rest. Obviously, the whole "different ball" thing between the Japan big leagues and the MLB is cause for some concern.
EDIT: I lied. I ended up staying up for his fourth inning. After walking a batter, there were runners on first and second on a bullcrap HBP call on an up and in pitch. (The replay clearly showed it didn't touch the batter, not even his clothes.) He K'd the next batter, and got the following one to cause a force out at second. Against his final batter, thanks to the pitch count rules in the Classic, he struck him out on a 3-2 pitch.
Sorry for the three consecutive posts, but I figure we're all at least somewhat interested in Matsuzaka, especially since the Yankees have claimed they'd be all over him if ever posted.
Final line for Matsuzaka: 4 IP, 2 BB, 2 HBP, 3 K, 2 H, 0 ER (1 R)
Thanks for the updates, I had no idea he was pitching last night. I think you are right about fatigue playing a part in his performance, when we get him (positive think ha) I think he does need to take it easy to get back to form.
Matsui55
03-04-06, 09:17 AM
1-2-3 third inning for Daisuke. A pop-up in fowl territory, groundout to third baseman, and a pop-up to the first base side. I'm sick, and really need some sleep, so here's my impression after the first three innings:
His stuff is filthy, but he was obviously a little eratic in the first two innings. Seemed to settle down in the third. His breaking ball is absolutely sick. Apparantly he's sitting in the low 90s--this is what was said in the first inning. Since I've read on here before he usually sits in the mid to upper 90s, I wonder if the slight drop in velocity is contributing to his lack of Ks tonight. I'll say this, he certainly isn't afraid to go after the batters. I personally think he could be successful in the States with his repertoire, but he'd need to be shut down for a while for some much-needed rest. Obviously, the whole "different ball" thing between the Japan big leagues and the MLB is cause for some concern.
EDIT: I lied. I ended up staying up for his fourth inning. After walking a batter, there were runners on first and second on a bullcrap HBP call on an up and in pitch. (The replay clearly showed it didn't touch the batter, not even his clothes.) He K'd the next batter, and got the following one to cause a force out at second. Against his final batter, thanks to the pitch count rules in the Classic, he struck him out on a 3-2 pitch.
Sorry for the three consecutive posts, but I figure we're all at least somewhat interested in Matsuzaka, especially since the Yankees have claimed they'd be all over him if ever posted.
Final line for Matsuzaka: 4 IP, 2 BB, 2 HBP, 3 K, 2 H, 0 ER (1 R)
I think you can chalk the lesser stuff up to the fact that it is spring training time over there too. Just like anyone else who will go our and pitch in this mess, he will not have his best stuff until May or so. That's why (in addition to working the pitch in) you generally don't see pitchers go past the 5th or 6th in April.
I wonder if what Shilling suggested would be better- instead of an All- Star break, have a world classic break in July. Everyone would be at their peak, most leagues would be in full swing, so its not like you would be asking the players to play more than they normally do in a season. It would also give baseball an undivided stage.
Is it just me, or did no one in MLB happen to notice that their "spectacular" is going to coincide with March Madness. Guess which one people will pay attention to? In the summer, they control the sports stage.
It would also be a great excuse to reduce the number of games on the schedule. If you call a two-week break, you could cut out 12-15 games easily. I think a 148 game season would still be competitive enough to sort out the top teams from the rest.
When will Matsuzaka be able to become a free agent? I would love it for the Yankees to make a run at him.
27IsNext
03-04-06, 10:10 AM
M55: Good stuff. I totally forgot that this is their spring training time too. I agree completely that they should not have this classic in March. Players aren't all there yet, and March Madness is in full swing, as you said.
Ppa79: After the 2007 season--coincidely when Posada, Sheffield, and Randy all come off the books. I'd love to make a run at him, provided his price demand isn't outrageous.
Donnybaseball72
03-04-06, 10:16 AM
I wonder if what Shilling suggested would be better- instead of an All- Star break, have a world classic break in July. Everyone would be at their peak, most leagues would be in full swing, so its not like you would be asking the players to play more than they normally do in a season. It would also give baseball an undivided stage.
That might be the first intelligent thing that Shilling has ever said! It would be similar to the NHL breaking for the winter olympics.
I'd love to make a run at him, provided his price demand isn't outrageous.
And also provided his arm is still there. This guy has thrown a ton of pitches since he has been in high school.
The Japanese League baseball is smaller and lighter weight than a Major League official ball. Pitchers that rely on forkballs would seem to have the most problems adjusting, but it didn't seem to bother Hideo Nomo or Kaz Sasaki.
I wonder if the larger ball would effect Matsuzaka's infamous Gyroball?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroball
27IsNext
03-04-06, 03:50 PM
That's my biggest concern. He seemed to be having trouble spotting his pitches early this morning, though like M55 said, it could just be spring training cobwebs. I wouldn't give him more than three years initially, due to his pitch count over the years.
Iknowcool
03-04-06, 04:25 PM
"I wonder if what Shilling suggested would be better- instead of an All- Star break, have a world classic break in July. Everyone would be at their peak, most leagues would be in full swing, so its not like you would be asking the players to play more than they normally do in a season. It would also give baseball an undivided stage."
Only problem is, this WBC break would need to be two weeks. That is a really long break, what about the players not participating in the classic? You can't ask a pitcher to take two weeks off and then come back not concerned about injury. Or a hitter to take a couple of weeks without seeing live pitching and come back just as good. You could say that these non-classic players could just play in the minors, but then you are conferring the negatives to the classic on all players. You are making all players play extra ball, and increase injury risk, instead of just those who are participating.
Also, the WBC mid season break would also decrease the amount of time the players get off. You are adding two weeks on the regular season (for everybody, not just the WBC crowd) and making these WBC participants play in ST as well. As it is currently constructed, the WBC season conincides with the ST season, so the players don't add any "work", they would likely be in spring training anyways.
Matsui55
03-04-06, 06:42 PM
"I wonder if what Shilling suggested would be better- instead of an All- Star break, have a world classic break in July. Everyone would be at their peak, most leagues would be in full swing, so its not like you would be asking the players to play more than they normally do in a season. It would also give baseball an undivided stage."
Only problem is, this WBC break would need to be two weeks. That is a really long break, what about the players not participating in the classic? You can't ask a pitcher to take two weeks off and then come back not concerned about injury. Or a hitter to take a couple of weeks without seeing live pitching and come back just as good. You could say that these non-classic players could just play in the minors, but then you are conferring the negatives to the classic on all players. You are making all players play extra ball, and increase injury risk, instead of just those who are participating.
Also, the WBC mid season break would also decrease the amount of time the players get off. You are adding two weeks on the regular season (for everybody, not just the WBC crowd) and making these WBC participants play in ST as well. As it is currently constructed, the WBC season conincides with the ST season, so the players don't add any "work", they would likely be in spring training anyways.
I agree on your point about the long layoff impact on the other players, but no one is forcing them to go home. They could certianly do "intersquad scrimmages" and the like. In fact, it might offer a "new" opportunity for the owners- bring their AAA teams into the "home" park and allow a set number of the remaining big leaguers (like no more than 3 per game) play with the AAA team in the big league park.
That kind of idea would promote the "minor leaguers" to the fans attention, as well as allow the clubs to have some form of a gate during the break.
However, if you had read down the rest of my post, you also have noted that I also suggested they shorten the season to about 148 games or so to account for the time off. I actually think they play too many games now. If the season was shorter, it would actually make those wild card races REALLY exciting. Remember how many teams are "still in it" in late August. If the season was 2 weeks shorter, you'd have more teams sprinting to the wire. THAT would get fans more excited and make those September games more fun.
If MLB shared the revenue from the classic with the teams, it should help offset the lost gates- not to mention merchandising profits from the national team stuff sales.
As for your final point about bing in ST anyways- the problem is that NO ONE is in any real condition to perform at anything close to top form- and won't be until May. That's why the mid-season idea makes sense.
27IsNext
03-04-06, 10:29 PM
Sadly, it makes too much sense, which is why it will probably remain during March.
SoCal Pinstriper
03-14-06, 04:28 PM
A new article on the elusive Gyroball.
In high school, Matsuzaka (his first name is pronounced DICE-kay) earned his reputation by throwing nearly 250 pitches in a 17-inning complete game. He twirled a five-hitter against a team of big-league ballplayers touring Japan. His earned-run average was the best in the league last season, his seventh. Eventually, whether it's after his 10th season in Japan or if Seibu uses the posting system to sell his rights before then, Matsuzaka would like to pitch in the major leagues – preferably with a mastery of the gyro.
"I would like to make it my out pitch," Matsuzaka said. "But it's not a miracle pitch."
The more Matsuzaka talked about the gyroball, the more people surrounded him. I asked one final question, about exactly how many times he has thrown it, but Masa and Yasuko didn't want to translate anymore. This was their story, too, and in Japan, Daisuke Matsuzaka learning anything is big news.
<HR align=center width="20%" SIZE=1>
The news here is Matsuzaka does not throw a gyroball, which leaves Joey Niezer and Steven Brown, another Carroll protégé, as the teenage heirs to the pitch that's supposed to change baseball. "We always had questions of whether Matsuzaka did it," Carroll said. "Now to find out there's this guy with Hanshin, that's almost as cool. It's kind of like having a treasure map and being Indiana Jones in the Temple of Gyro. "It's still like it doesn't exist." http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AiKyo2wC3IAoi9mMSiglTEMRvLYF?slug=jp-gyro031306&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
flymick24
03-15-06, 12:28 AM
he pitched well for japan tonight... 5 IP, only 2 H, 0 R
i wonder if he threw the gyro tonight at all
SoCal Pinstriper
03-15-06, 02:50 AM
he pitched well for japan tonight... 5 IP, only 2 H, 0 R
i wonder if he threw the gyro tonight at allThat game on ESPN2 for night owls now.
Matsui55
03-16-06, 06:11 AM
he pitched well for japan tonight... 5 IP, only 2 H, 0 R
i wonder if he threw the gyro tonight at all
I don't care about the gyroball or whatever pitch some reporter is trying to make a name for themselves writing about. What I care about is results. Look who he has been pitching against- and look at the results. This guy is the real deal and has made himself a lot of money this month.
The Yanks are going to have a real battle on their hands to get him when he becomes available. Still, you have to wonder how different it could have been if Boras hadn't gotten his greedy fingers into the action this winter...
27IsNext
03-16-06, 09:13 AM
I don't care about the gyroball or whatever pitch some reporter is trying to make a name for themselves writing about. What I care about is results. Look who he has been pitching against- and look at the results. This guy is the real deal and has made himself a lot of money this month.
The Yanks are going to have a real battle on their hands to get him when he becomes available. Still, you have to wonder how different it could have been if Boras hadn't gotten his greedy fingers into the action this winter...
If he favors the Yanks like earlier reports indicated, he'd likely come here for a slight discount.
I truly think he has the stuff to be successful here. When he becomes available after the 2007 season, Matsui only has two years left on his contract. You have to think the Yanks will be looking at this from a business perspective as well as a team construction one.
IrishYankee
03-16-06, 09:35 AM
Show me one example of a player coming to the Yankees for a discount? It'll only ever happen if NY abolishes City and State tax, and that ain't never happening.
Kulish29
03-16-06, 09:41 AM
I don't care about the gyroball or whatever pitch some reporter is trying to make a name for themselves writing about. What I care about is results. Look who he has been pitching against- and look at the results. This guy is the real deal and has made himself a lot of money this month.
The guy has done well, no question. But, I worry about the wear on that arm. He's pitched a hell of a lot of innings (1500+). I think he has something like 59 complete games already and he's only 26.
He's good, but he's a real big risk.
27IsNext
03-16-06, 01:03 PM
Show me one example of a player coming to the Yankees for a discount? It'll only ever happen if NY abolishes City and State tax, and that ain't never happening.
Pavano and Dotel off the top of my head. Both were offered more by the Red Sox, but chose the Yankees. Farnsworth came to the Yankees even though Texas offered him more.
Beltran would have come to the Yankees for less than what the Mets are paying.
Yankees1962
03-16-06, 01:19 PM
Pavano and Dotel off the top of my head. Both were offered more by the Red Sox, but chose the Yankees. Farnsworth came to the Yankees even though Texas offered him more.
Beltran would have come to the Yankees for less than what the Mets are paying.
That's about right!
DontHateOnNumber2
03-21-06, 09:22 AM
I could see why getting Matsuzaka would be a huge risk given the stress on his arm from his delivery, his pitches, and the innings he throws. If the Yankees get him one could be almost guaranteed that he won't pitch NEARLY as many innings as he does in Japan. They'd save those complete games for the postseason.
Pavano and Dotel off the top of my head. Both were offered more by the Red Sox, but chose the Yankees. Farnsworth came to the Yankees even though Texas offered him more.
Beltran would have come to the Yankees for less than what the Mets are paying.
Mussina also took less money to come here than what I believe Boston was offering.
Mussina also took less money to come here than what I believe Boston was offering.
And, if the Yankees had targeted him, I wonder if Manny would have taken less money to come home to NY, then he took from Boston. One will never know though, but it is a thought.
27IsNext
03-21-06, 12:16 PM
Matsuzaka was named MVP of the World Baseball Classic.
"When I was told two days ago by the manager that I would be starting the final game, it really fired me up," Matsuzaka said. "This was the first time for me to face the Cubans since the Athens Olympics. They always have these intimidating hitters, but I wasn't scared to pitch against them."
Source. (http://ww2.worldbaseballclassic.com/2006/news/recap.jsp?ymd=20060320&content_id=1357183&gameid=2006_03_20_jpnint_cubint_1)
Anyone watching him yesterday knows why I want him here. The kid can flat-out pitch, and isn't afraid to throw strikes. He'd be great in New York.
Matsui55
03-21-06, 06:30 PM
I could see why getting Matsuzaka would be a huge risk given the stress on his arm from his delivery, his pitches, and the innings he throws. If the Yankees get him one could be almost guaranteed that he won't pitch NEARLY as many innings as he does in Japan. They'd save those complete games for the postseason.
Give it up. We know you want Uehara- who is the real has-been injury risk. Forget it- baseball fans saw the reason Matsuzaka is the national team ace for Japan.
Iknowcool
03-22-06, 06:01 PM
I would like Matsuzaka, but not at anything more than 8 mil/yr. There are too much young pitchers who will be available, possibly Mulder, Zito, Sheets, Zambrano. The good thing is that this might drive down matsuzakas asking price.
DontHateOnNumber2
03-22-06, 11:09 PM
Give it up. We know you want Uehara- who is the real has-been injury risk. Forget it- baseball fans saw the reason Matsuzaka is the national team ace for Japan.
What? Are you insinuating that I don't want him to sign as a Yankee? You're damned wrong! I was replying to previous posts regarding his arm being toast after pitching countless innings, that's all. :D
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5441362
Japanese jewel still a risky prospect
Ken Rosenthal / FOXSports.com
[...]
The one caveat: Matsuzaka, 25, indeed throws a lot.
He has averaged a mere 174 innings in seven seasons with Seibu, but his performance in the 1998 Summer National High School Baseball Tournament in Japan remains a source of wonder and concern for major-league clubs.
Matsuzaka pitched on four consecutive days in the tournament, starting and finishing three of those games, including one that went 17 innings.
One day after that reported 250-pitch effort, Matsuzaka worked an inning of relief. And the day after that, in the tournament's championship game, he pitched a nine-inning no-hitter, becoming a legend at age 17.
Thirty-six innings in four days — unusual, even for a Japanese pitcher, especially one so young. But unlike their North American counterparts, the Japanese throw constantly; and they take pride doing so.
"They've been doing that forever," says a major-league scout who covers Asia. "If you've got a bad shoulder, bad elbow, whatever, their answer is to keep throwing."
On Feb. 17, two weeks before his first start in the WBC, Matsuzaka threw a career-high 333 pitches in a spring-training bullpen session. That's right, 333 pitches — practically a season's worth for the Cubs' Kerry Wood.
The session didn't seem to affect Matsuzaka in the WBC, and other Japanese pitchers have succeeded in the majors, most notably right-hander Hideo Nomo. Matsuzaka, who throws 91 to 94 mph with a variety of off-speed pitches, could be at least a No. 2 starter, scouts say.
[...]
Matsui55
03-25-06, 08:47 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5441362
Japanese jewel still a risky prospect
Ken Rosenthal / FOXSports.com
[...]
The one caveat: Matsuzaka, 25, indeed throws a lot.
He has averaged a mere 174 innings in seven seasons with Seibu, but his performance in the 1998 Summer National High School Baseball Tournament in Japan remains a source of wonder and concern for major-league clubs.
Matsuzaka pitched on four consecutive days in the tournament, starting and finishing three of those games, including one that went 17 innings.
One day after that reported 250-pitch effort, Matsuzaka worked an inning of relief. And the day after that, in the tournament's championship game, he pitched a nine-inning no-hitter, becoming a legend at age 17.
Thirty-six innings in four days — unusual, even for a Japanese pitcher, especially one so young. But unlike their North American counterparts, the Japanese throw constantly; and they take pride doing so.
"They've been doing that forever," says a major-league scout who covers Asia. "If you've got a bad shoulder, bad elbow, whatever, their answer is to keep throwing."
On Feb. 17, two weeks before his first start in the WBC, Matsuzaka threw a career-high 333 pitches in a spring-training bullpen session. That's right, 333 pitches — practically a season's worth for the Cubs' Kerry Wood.
The session didn't seem to affect Matsuzaka in the WBC, and other Japanese pitchers have succeeded in the majors, most notably right-hander Hideo Nomo. Matsuzaka, who throws 91 to 94 mph with a variety of off-speed pitches, could be at least a No. 2 starter, scouts say.
[...]
Sometime I wonder how guillible these writers are.
The guy took on a monster workload in HS.... in 1998. Last time I checked, my calendar said this was 2006. That would have been EIGHT years ago that this "awful" thing happened. Except for a problem about 4 years ago, he hasn't shown problems since.
Anyone happen to notice how many pitches most college starters throw in the College WS? When anyone has some free time, go take a look how many pitches Steve White threw for Baylor in the College WS sometime- as well as that season too. It hasn't been White's arm that broke down (other injuries, including an oblique have slowed him).
For every scout that says "So and so is a ticking time bomb with that arm," I'll guarantee you that you could apply that to every pitcher in baseball. For those old enough here to remember, that "ticking time bomb" label was stcuk to Andy Pettitte since 1995- he got 10 years, had some surgery, and is pitching well again. Really set his career back didn't it.
Worst case scenario- Matsuzaka comes here, pitches for a while, and then needs surgery. He has it, loses a year, and comes back. Guess what folks- if he comes here next year, and is injured, and loses a year- he's still only 28 when he comes back!
Furthermore, so what if he throws ridiculous numbers of pitches- some people can. There are guys who just have an inexhaustable arm- think of David Wells. Yes, he had surgery as a rookie. After that, does anyone in their right mind think that he spent more than 10 minutes a year taking care of his body or arm? Guess who'se still pitching at 41- and winning. He has stuff, he would throw all day, yet he would still go take the ball every 5th day. Has anyone realistically looked at the innings and pitch counts of RJ? Expecially since he turned 35? Remember him in 1995- starting games, and STILL coming in to close a game on 2 days rest against the Yanks in the ALDS? Did that hurt him? On the plus side, if Matsuzaka comes here, it would mean lower pitch counts anyway.
If we were talking about Mussina, or RJ- then yes, that might be career ending to lose a year or so then. Keep in mind that Pettitte is 33 or so. He lost almost a year to elbow surgery. No one said that would destroy him.
In fact, let's just assume Matsuzaka comes here, hurts his arm, and has the most common procedure done- TJ surgery. Teams are beginning to realize that pitchers come back stronger, and generally lose no velocity from the surgery. If he has a labrum problem- fine. Wang did his too- in 2001- doesn't seem to have cost him his stuff.
Writers HAVE to find something to write about- that's their job. However, I wish they would become more INFORMED about what they write, and think about what they are saying, before they rush to the computer and tap out a worthless story like this one.
27IsNext
03-25-06, 09:45 PM
Good stuff, M55. I definately want this guy if/when he's available, unless the price is just so outrageous.
TheBabe04
03-25-06, 10:46 PM
Sometime I wonder how guillible these writers are.
The guy took on a monster workload in HS.... in 1998. Last time I checked, my calendar said this was 2006. That would have been EIGHT years ago that this "awful" thing happened. Except for a problem about 4 years ago, he hasn't shown problems since.
Anyone happen to notice how many pitches most college starters throw in the College WS? When anyone has some free time, go take a look how many pitches Steve White threw for Baylor in the College WS sometime- as well as that season too. It hasn't been White's arm that broke down (other injuries, including an oblique have slowed him).
For every scout that says "So and so is a ticking time bomb with that arm," I'll guarantee you that you could apply that to every pitcher in baseball. For those old enough here to remember, that "ticking time bomb" label was stcuk to Andy Pettitte since 1995- he got 10 years, had some surgery, and is pitching well again. Really set his career back didn't it.
Here is the problem with that line of thought: You are assuming that because pitchers didn't seem to be adversely affected when they were young by pitching a lot in their youth, that this wouldn't affect them in their old age. This isn't what people are arguing about. One of the big theories in baseball right now, is that you've got to limit young arms (typically up to about age 26-27) not so that they'll be able to pitch well when they're 30, or 33, but when they're 36. The more innings you put on a young guys arm, the more innings you take away from them as a veteran. It's kind of like with catchers, the more they catch as young players, the quicker they are likely to decline as older players. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, there always will be. However, just look at Andy Pettitte now, considering retirement in his early 30s, in no small part because he doesn't feel completely healthy. Matsuzaka is a far worse case.
Matsuzaka and many other asian pitchers are subject to absurd abuse. For this reason, few Japanese pitchers ever last beyond the age of 30 (I'm not kidding. Look at Japanese rosters, and veteran pitchers, and you'll notice that there are no Roger Clemens, Randy Johnsons, or David Wells over there. Their arms get destroyed), even as relievers. Their arms are fried. Matsuzaka, in his mid 20s, has already pitched over 1200 innings...despite missing most of the 2002 season, and a large stretch of the 2004 season. The amount of strain that has been put on his arm for the past 10 years has been enormous. If he's pitching past the age of 35, I'd be stunned.
Worst case scenario- Matsuzaka comes here, pitches for a while, and then needs surgery. He has it, loses a year, and comes back. Guess what folks- if he comes here next year, and is injured, and loses a year- he's still only 28 when he comes back!
Furthermore, so what if he throws ridiculous numbers of pitches- some people can. There are guys who just have an inexhaustable arm- think of David Wells. Yes, he had surgery as a rookie. After that, does anyone in their right mind think that he spent more than 10 minutes a year taking care of his body or arm? Guess who'se still pitching at 41- and winning. He has stuff, he would throw all day, yet he would still go take the ball every 5th day. Has anyone realistically looked at the innings and pitch counts of RJ? Expecially since he turned 35? Remember him in 1995- starting games, and STILL coming in to close a game on 2 days rest against the Yanks in the ALDS? Did that hurt him? On the plus side, if Matsuzaka comes here, it would mean lower pitch counts anyway.
Have you ever watched David Wells pitch? His delivery is pretty smooth, and not physically stressful, and because he's a control pitcher he doesn't need to use a lot of pitches. David Wells is alike to Roger Clemens in that he has a smooth delivery and doesn't use a lot of pitches, allowing him to swallow tons of innings (not to mention the fact that he is large enough to make throwing a less than violent motion, unlike guys like Billy Wagner). As for RJ...he's a freak. Comparing RJ to anyone is like saying that because Lawrence Taylor could sleep through team meetings and still dominate a game, thereby team meetings are unnecessary. RJ is the exception to the rule.
In fact, let's just assume Matsuzaka comes here, hurts his arm, and has the most common procedure done- TJ surgery. Teams are beginning to realize that pitchers come back stronger, and generally lose no velocity from the surgery. If he has a labrum problem- fine. Wang did his too- in 2001- doesn't seem to have cost him his stuff.
TJ isn't that simple. When you have TJ surgery, you don't just lose a year then come back with improved velocity. It's an incredibly hard surgery to overcome. Many guys come back from TJ surgery with improved velocity, this is true. What is also true however, is that all players come back from TJ surgery with a major loss in control, and many of them never get that control back. Others, like AJ Burnett, never really heal and suffer sporadic elbow problems for the rest of their career. Labrum problems are even worse, as a true labrum tear (beyond the normal small tears that every pitcher in the league has) will end your career. Period. Wang had a limited labrum problem, and he was able to come back. But let's say he injures it again...he'd probably never pitch again. Labrum injuries are like reconstructive knee surgeries, you can come back once, but you probably won't come back if you do it again.
TheBabe04
03-25-06, 10:47 PM
Good stuff, M55. I definately want this guy if/when he's available, unless the price is just so outrageous.
It would be. Ichiro cost what, 10 million dollars to get the right to talk to him about a contract? Matsuzaka would probably cost more.
27IsNext
03-25-06, 11:56 PM
It would be. Ichiro cost what, 10 million dollars to get the right to talk to him about a contract? Matsuzaka would probably cost more.
Matsuzaka will likely come over here via free agency, so there won't be any "$10 million just to talk to him." As far as how much money he actually gets, it remains to be seen.
Thing is, it doesn't matter--when he becomes available, he will be a Yankee. Our scouts love him, and he'll bring in even more overseas revenue that the Yankees already get for Matsui.
Yankees1962
03-26-06, 04:16 AM
Matsuzaka will likely come over here via free agency, so there won't be any "$10 million just to talk to him." As far as how much money he actually gets, it remains to be seen.
Thing is, it doesn't matter--when he becomes available, he will be a Yankee. Our scouts love him, and he'll bring in even more overseas revenue that the Yankees already get for Matsui.
Don't be too sure that he will be a Yankee, it's not a given yet.
Matsui55
03-26-06, 07:49 AM
Here is the problem with that line of thought: You are assuming that because pitchers didn't seem to be adversely affected when they were young by pitching a lot in their youth, that this wouldn't affect them in their old age. This isn't what people are arguing about. One of the big theories in baseball right now, is that you've got to limit young arms (typically up to about age 26-27) not so that they'll be able to pitch well when they're 30, or 33, but when they're 36. The more innings you put on a young guys arm, the more innings you take away from them as a veteran. It's kind of like with catchers, the more they catch as young players, the quicker they are likely to decline as older players. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, there always will be. However, just look at Andy Pettitte now, considering retirement in his early 30s, in no small part because he doesn't feel completely healthy. Matsuzaka is a far worse case.
Matsuzaka and many other asian pitchers are subject to absurd abuse. For this reason, few Japanese pitchers ever last beyond the age of 30 (I'm not kidding. Look at Japanese rosters, and veteran pitchers, and you'll notice that there are no Roger Clemens, Randy Johnsons, or David Wells over there. Their arms get destroyed), even as relievers. Their arms are fried. Matsuzaka, in his mid 20s, has already pitched over 1200 innings...despite missing most of the 2002 season, and a large stretch of the 2004 season. The amount of strain that has been put on his arm for the past 10 years has been enormous. If he's pitching past the age of 35, I'd be stunned.
Have you ever watched David Wells pitch? His delivery is pretty smooth, and not physically stressful, and because he's a control pitcher he doesn't need to use a lot of pitches. David Wells is alike to Roger Clemens in that he has a smooth delivery and doesn't use a lot of pitches, allowing him to swallow tons of innings (not to mention the fact that he is large enough to make throwing a less than violent motion, unlike guys like Billy Wagner). As for RJ...he's a freak. Comparing RJ to anyone is like saying that because Lawrence Taylor could sleep through team meetings and still dominate a game, thereby team meetings are unnecessary. RJ is the exception to the rule.
TJ isn't that simple. When you have TJ surgery, you don't just lose a year then come back with improved velocity. It's an incredibly hard surgery to overcome. Many guys come back from TJ surgery with improved velocity, this is true. What is also true however, is that all players come back from TJ surgery with a major loss in control, and many of them never get that control back. Others, like AJ Burnett, never really heal and suffer sporadic elbow problems for the rest of their career. Labrum problems are even worse, as a true labrum tear (beyond the normal small tears that every pitcher in the league has) will end your career. Period. Wang had a limited labrum problem, and he was able to come back. But let's say he injures it again...he'd probably never pitch again. Labrum injuries are like reconstructive knee surgeries, you can come back once, but you probably won't come back if you do it again.
Let me put it to you this way then- have you ever seen Matsuzaka pitch. I have. His motion is not violent, and does not involve the deception of say, Nomo to get it done. He is not a control pitcher either- he relies on getting you to swing at stuff you can't hit- power pitching.
TJ for a power pitcher is less of a risk than it is for a finesse guy. Finesse guys rely on putting the ball where they want. Power guys beat you with stuff. Matsuzaka is a power pitcher.
Furthermore, Wang DID TEAR his labrum- not some "wear and tear"- TORN- required almost 2 years to completely recover from. Despite your assertation that that is a career ender, last time I checked, Wang was doing pretty well.
I do not subscribe to the school of thought that you must limit a young pitchers pitch count. What you must do is limit the off-speed stuff they throw- anyone can throw a FB all day- it doesn't require any more unusual stress than a regular throw. If a young pitch throws 120 pitches, and all of them are FB, I'm not as concerned about it as I would be if a young pitcher threw 90 pitches, and 70 of them were CB/changeups/etc.
Kerry Wood is a classic example. Here was a power pitcher who dominanted on his FB, but to succeed in the bigs, he needed to learn something that broke or moved. Thus, the Cubs foolishly focused him on a CB. A pitcher that young should not be throwing large volumes of Cb- maybe a slider or a 2 and 4 seamer. Guess what pitch he was throwing when he finished off his arm in 2000? That's right- a CB.
Like I said before, Matsuzaka is a power pitcher- yes, he has several different off-speed pitches, but they work off his FB. In HS, he lived and died off that FB- most HS hitters are unable to handle a mid-90's FB, and Japan is no different. If he threw 300 pitches in 2 days, most would have been FB. Today, he is a 26 year old pitcher, who has never had surgery, and who has not lost velocity- if you saw him in the WBC, you'd have seen exactly what I mean.
One point that has been made to death is that the Seibu has made a big deal about his supposed drop in velocity. Remember as well that it was Seibu that claimed he threw 98 in the first place. Given the acrimony between player and team since about 2000, why would this suddenly change? hmmm... He throws between 90-94, which is right where you want him- and likely where he always was. Just for those who don't know- Hideki Irabu supposedly threw 98 regularly as well. Yet even before he came to the U.S., there was never an independent radar reading (meaning not team-owned) that ever clocked him about the mid-90's. Even with the Yanks, I don't think anyone ever clocked him at more than 95-96 on a max effort pitch.
As for your roster analysis of Japanese baseball, there is more than meets the eye there. Japanese players don't get FA until they have completed 9 years of service. When they reach FA, they become very expensive. The Japanese leagues are in bad shape financially and otherwise- the bad economy really took a toll on the teams, as they are all corporately owned, and the teams could not be sustained at previous levels.
Therefore, if you are not a star in Japan, you aren't going to be wanted when you reach FA. There are not many high end pitchers in Japan- too many guys who are finesse and trick motions types. That style, even here, does not lead to long careers- hitters catch on as time takes it toll. Power pitchers survive. The one team in Japan that has most rejected this trend has been the Yomiuri Giants- as a newspaper owned team, they were able to weather the financial storms better than most (most teams are owned by retail chains and heavy industry). They carry a predominantly older staff, both in past history and present. That is why the leagues oldest players have usually ended up on Yomiuri's roster at one point or another.
As for whether Matsuzaka is going to be pitching when he's 35- show me where there is ANY guarantee that ANY pitcher will be pitching at 35, or even be healthy enough to do so at 35. Guess how old Mike Mussina, one of the most durable pitchers of this generation was when he suddenly broke down- that's right- 35. He is now a shadow of that former pitcher. But for the big contract, he'd probably be shuffling from team to team.
Guess what type of pitcher Mussina is too- finesse. Yes, he could dial it up into the mid-90's in his prime, but he was always about location rather than blowing it by the hitter. That's what happens as they age.
RJ is now beginning to fade- but he's 42. Power pitchers go last.
27IsNext
03-26-06, 11:32 AM
Don't be too sure that he will be a Yankee, it's not a given yet.
Unless something drastic happens, yes it is.
flymick24
03-26-06, 02:32 PM
Mussina also took less money to come here than what I believe Boston was offering.
i thought it was the mets, not the sox
Yankees1962
03-26-06, 02:55 PM
Unless something drastic happens, yes it is.
There you go again expressing your opinion like it's a fact. Unless, you have some inside information then the only thing you're doing is speculating like the rest of us.
The Yankees will be flush with cash; they got Moose's contract coming off the books.
Matsui55
03-26-06, 05:10 PM
There you go again expressing your opinion like it's a fact. Unless, you have some inside information then the only thing you're doing is speculating like the rest of us.
He does have a point- the Japanese media has been saying that Matsuzaka would like to play for the Yankees since the beginning of last year.
The Japanese media does not operate in a vacuum- when they report that a player wants to do something, they aren't just whistling in the dark. Remember that the Matsui story broke that way too.
That said, the real question is whether the Yanks will build the relationship woith Seibu that will allow them to take the lead in the competition. Just something to keep in mind here- the posting system works as follows: the American clubs submit sealed bids to the Japanese team (not the league), and the team notifies the winning team who won. Afterwards, the bids are not disclosed, and there is very little regulation of the process.
For those who don't know, business in Japan is run on relationships- going mercenary is frowned upon- and Seibu is an OLD department store chain, and is unlikely to look kindly on pushy teams or blustering in the media. Some think that Seibu could have been talked into posting Matsuzaka last winter until Boras jumped in with his stupid boasting.
Thus, while each team is SUPPOSED to submit only one bid (no running up the bidding by asking them to bid again), knowing the way Japan works, I have little doubt that the clubs preselect the winner, and use backdoor channels to set up the process. Don't think for a minute that the head of Nintendo being the majority owner of the Mariners had nothing to do with Seattle winning the posting for Ichiro.
Yankees1962
03-26-06, 05:10 PM
The Yankees will be flush with cash; they got Moose's contract coming off the books.
Being flush with cash doesn't mean it's a done deal. There are other clubs out there that will have a lot cash to spend including the Mets, Red Sox and Dodgers.
Yankees1962
03-26-06, 05:13 PM
He does have a point- the Japanese media has been saying that Matsuzaka would like to play for the Yankees since the beginning of last year.
The Japanese media does not operate in a vacuum- when they report that a player wants to do something, they aren't just whistling in the dark. Remember that the Matsui story broke that way too.
That said, the real question is whether the Yanks will build the relationship woith Seibu that will allow them to take the lead in the competition. Just something to keep in mind here- the posting system works as follows: the American clubs submit sealed bids to the Japanese team (not the league), and the team notifies the winning team who won. Afterwards, the bids are not disclosed, and there is very little regulation of the process.
For those who don't know, business in Japan is run on relationships- going mercenary is frowned upon- and Seibu is an OLD department store chain, and is unlikely to look kindly on pushy teams or blustering in the media. Some think that Seibu could have been talked into posting Matsuzaka last winter until Boras jumped in with his stupid boasting.
Thus, while each team is SUPPOSED to submit only one bid (no running up the bidding by asking them to bid again), knowing the way Japan works, I have little doubt that the clubs preselect the winner, and use backdoor channels to set up the process. Don't think for a minute that the head of Nintendo being the majority owner of the Mariners had nothing to do with Seattle winning the posting for Ichiro.
That's my point, in time we'll see how this breaks because it looks like Seibu will have a lot to say on which team wins the winning bid.
27IsNext
03-26-06, 06:15 PM
Yankees1962: I'm assuming he hits the market as a free agent. If so, I'm almost certain he's going to be a Yankee, for several reasons:
1.) Our scouts love him.
2.) The revenue he could generate.
3.) It's been reported he prefers the Yankees.
I agree that if he becomes available via the posting system, it's an open game. I just don't think Seibu ever posts him.
I want him if he is posted after the season. He'll be cheaper, younger, and comparable to any top free agent pitcher in the offseason.
The Yankees are so serious about pursuing the Seibu Lions' Daisuke Matsuzaka that they have hired a Japanese scout who attended the same high school as the righthander, according to the Japanese publication Sankei Sports. Matsuzaka, 25, 10-2 with a 2.03 ERA, will have to be posted by Seibu this offseason to become available ..
http://www.amny.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks0715,0,874168.story?coll=am-homepage-mezz
JeterRodriguezSheff
07-16-06, 08:03 AM
Id love to have him, it would be interesting though to see how many pitches the Yankees allow him to throw in a game though.
Matsui55
07-16-06, 02:23 PM
Yankees1962: I'm assuming he hits the market as a free agent. If so, I'm almost certain he's going to be a Yankee, for several reasons:
1.) Our scouts love him.
2.) The revenue he could generate.
3.) It's been reported he prefers the Yankees.
I agree that if he becomes available via the posting system, it's an open game. I just don't think Seibu ever posts him.
I'll refer you to my above post to explain why the posting process isn't as "fair" as you think it is. It is ALL about relationships in Japan- and don't think for a minute that any team that trys to bully its way around will win.
The Yanks appear to be doing this the right way- build relationships in Japan and work behind the scenes.
flymick24
07-16-06, 03:40 PM
if he's posted this off-season, i'd rather the yankees overspend on him rather than zito, who they will pursue without a doubt.
27IsNext
07-16-06, 10:39 PM
I'll refer you to my above post to explain why the posting process isn't as "fair" as you think it is. It is ALL about relationships in Japan- and don't think for a minute that any team that trys to bully its way around will win.
The Yanks appear to be doing this the right way- build relationships in Japan and work behind the scenes.
I recall the post, and I agree completely. If the Yanks don't do this the right way, we'll be on the outside looking in for Matsuzaka. At the time, I felt that he would never get posted because of Boras sticking his nose into the scene, but now it appears that he will get posted after all...
Thanks for the info Irony. He hasnt had any debilitating arm problems over the years, so I would still sign him to a minor league contract. He seems like the real deal. A tune up in the minors for a year and then bringing him up either mid-year '05 or to start '06 would be nice.
This guy was in the World Baseball Classic, and as a matter of fact he won the World baseball classic MVP award. That being said, if the Yanks were to get him there is no way he's coming here to start in the minors for any length of time.
ABCBaseball
07-17-06, 12:59 AM
This guy was in the World Baseball Classic, and as a matter of fact he won the World baseball classic MVP award. That being said, if the Yanks were to get him there is no way he's coming here to start in the minors for any length of time.The chances of him signing a minor league contract are about the same as his chances of signing with the drays.
NYDCYankee
07-17-06, 01:26 AM
The chances of him signing a minor league contract are about the same as his chances of signing with the drays.
Those Rays are under new management. I expect them to spend. :)
TheMick@ND
07-17-06, 01:42 AM
Please get this guy. I have a man crush on Daisuke.
metalboy15
07-17-06, 12:36 PM
for those who havent seen Daisuke Matsuzaka pitch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAwmW2S-xX4&eurl=
Steph19
07-17-06, 12:50 PM
Some more Daisuke Matsuzaka videos for those who have never seen the infamous "gyroball":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yimyfjcf2f4&search=gyroball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sboi0EWp8ao&search=gyroball
The second one shows the movement a little better as well as the grip... He holds the ball on two different sides, kind of like doing that little hand trick where you seperate the pinkie and ring finger from the index and middle finger.
metalboy15
07-17-06, 01:54 PM
Some more Daisuke Matsuzaka videos for those who have never seen the infamous "gyroball":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yimyfjcf2f4&search=gyroball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sboi0EWp8ao&search=gyroball
The second one shows the movement a little better as well as the grip... He holds the ball on two different sides, kind of like doing that little hand trick where you seperate the pinkie and ring finger from the index and middle finger.
wasn´t the gyroball suppose to break away from righties? that one went in on him...
Kulish29
07-17-06, 01:58 PM
This guy was in the World Baseball Classic, and as a matter of fact he won the World baseball classic MVP award. That being said, if the Yanks were to get him there is no way he's coming here to start in the minors for any length of time.
I posted that two years ago :lol:
I know now that he would deffinetly be in the starting rotation should he be signed.
His breaking pitches really plummet through the zone. I would be concerned about how slow his delivery is, though. Not saying that he's Nomo, obviously, though.
Some more Daisuke Matsuzaka videos for those who have never seen the infamous "gyroball"
Thanks!
Fabien Brandy
07-17-06, 06:21 PM
Hey - there's a thread for this In Between the Lines!
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=97111&page=2
:-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock- :wtf:
Sillycon
07-17-06, 11:24 PM
wasn´t the gyroball suppose to break away from righties? that one went in on him...
I guess the best way to look at it is that think of it as a backwards slider...
Sillycon
07-17-06, 11:28 PM
His breaking pitches really plummet through the zone. I would be concerned about how slow his delivery is, though. Not saying that he's Nomo, obviously, though.
It's only the full windup (when noone's on base) so you need not be concerned about it... If he was taking that long from the stretch THEN you'd have a reason to be concerned. Wang has the hesitation as well from the windup..
RollingWave
07-18-06, 12:54 AM
He isn't a FA till after 07, though it is possible he is posted after this season it isn't extremely likely.
The real worry is if he's arm will hold up, but other than that, he is a pure monster that should at the very least project to be a good #2 in the bigs.
Matsui55
07-18-06, 07:33 PM
He isn't a FA till after 07, though it is possible he is posted after this season it isn't extremely likely.
The real worry is if he's arm will hold up, but other than that, he is a pure monster that should at the very least project to be a good #2 in the bigs.
As I have explained here NUMEROUS times- it is VERY likely he gets posted for simple economics. Seibu is not a rich team. In fact, Seibu is owed by the Seibu Department Store chain. Department stores, especially the "old name" ones, aren't doing well anywhere, including Japan. If anyone has paid attention to J.C. Pennys or Sears lately, you know what I mean.
Keep in mind that the largest contracts in Japan generally struggle to crack the $7-8M per mark. There are no ARod type contracts there- in fact, Pavano's deal would be a mega-fortune there.
Keep in mind that when Ichiro was posted, no one had any idea how the Japanese players would perform, with only Nomo as a real guide. Ichiro was the "test case"- and his team got $13M for posting him- enough in those days to cover about 1/3 of the payroll for the next season!
Now that Japanese players, especially the star ones, have a pretty successful track record, I have little doubt the bidding will exceed $15M, with $20M not out of the realm of possibility. Remember- winning the posting is only getting the rights to negotiate- it is not signing the player, which would probably take another $8-10M per, for 3-5 years.
For those not familiar with the Japanese sports landscape, baseball has traditionally been the sport of choice. However, since the early 1990's, younger Japanese have turned to soccer in huge numbers. Baseball's popularity has plummeted and the fortunes of the league have suffered as a result. Thus, getting anywhere from $15-20M for the rights to a star player is a godsend to any team. Yes, they lose their best player, but with that kind of dough, they can probably sign 4-5 more good players, or just keep the money (as the owner).
The point is this, Seibu realizes that Matsuzaka will not be returning or staying in Japan after the 2007 season. They saw that the Yomiuri Giants got nothing for losing Hideki Matsui, and not coincidently, the forutnes of the Giants have faltered. Seibu is unlikely to pass by the opportunity for bigs bucks- provided that MLB does this the right way.
The yanks are well on their way here- the game in Japan is about making contacts and allowing the other side to "look good" in the process. If the Yanks make this about "working with Seibu" rather than a bum-rush to take their best player, Seibu will reciprocate.
To be blunter- the posting system is controlled by the team. All teams submit sealed bids, with no team supposed to know what the other bid. The Japanese team then announces the winner (not the Japanese league). As you are all aware, when you make the rules, you generally know the outcome in advance. Put it together.
spiritof27
07-18-06, 08:28 PM
To be blunter- the posting system is controlled by the team. All teams submit sealed bids, with no team supposed to know what the other bid. The Japanese team then announces the winner (not the Japanese league). As you are all aware, when you make the rules, you generally know the outcome in advance. Put it together.
So then, does it also go the other way? I'm not at all familiar with the Japanese leagues. What are the chances that if the Yankees have developed a great relationship with Seibu, they wouldn't have to post the best bid? They could simply make an agreement with Seibu before anybody else makes a bid and then Halliburton Matsuzaka away? I'm sure the price will still be around $15m, but maybe not all the way up to $20m.
destiNY
07-18-06, 09:21 PM
whats the FB speed? I don't know what 150 KM is in mph...
IrishYankee
07-18-06, 09:42 PM
divide by 8 and multiply by 5. = 93.25 mph i think
Matsui55
07-18-06, 09:45 PM
whats the FB speed? I don't know what 150 KM is in mph...
Go out to your car and look at the speedometer- it usually has KM and MPH.
metalboy15
07-20-06, 08:36 AM
whats the FB speed? I don't know what 150 KM is in mph...
93.21 mph...
The Yankee Captain
07-23-06, 06:10 AM
From Sunday 7/23 Newsday article by Ken Davidoff
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spken234827324jul23,0,2531921.column?coll=ny-sports-print
"The Seibu Lions could post the 25-year-old righthander this winter, through the same blind-auction style by which Seattle landed Ichiro Suzuki in November 2000; the Yankees didn't even bid for Ichiro, much to their chagrin.
Few insiders, however, believe that the auction consists merely of a guesstimate. Only the most naive think that back-channel relationships don't play a role.
Which is why Japanese insiders have taken note of a recent Yankees hiring. As first reported by Sankei Sports, the Yankees have taken Shoichi Kida aboard as an associate scout, who will be based in his native land. Kida went to the same high school as Matsuzaka, although the two men are four years apart, and the former infielder spent time in Seibu as Matsuzaka's teammate."
From Sunday 7/23 Newsday article by Ken Davidoff
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spken234827324jul23,0,2531921.column?coll=ny-sports-print
"The Seibu Lions could post the 25-year-old righthander this winter, through the same blind-auction style by which Seattle landed Ichiro Suzuki in November 2000; the Yankees didn't even bid for Ichiro, much to their chagrin.
Few insiders, however, believe that the auction consists merely of a guesstimate. Only the most naive think that back-channel relationships don't play a role.
Which is why Japanese insiders have taken note of a recent Yankees hiring. As first reported by Sankei Sports, the Yankees have taken Shoichi Kida aboard as an associate scout, who will be based in his native land. Kida went to the same high school as Matsuzaka, although the two men are four years apart, and the former infielder spent time in Seibu as Matsuzaka's teammate."
Ah Ha.
The Yankees are getting their foot in the door.
Interesting. Is this Moose's potential replacement?
27IsNext
07-23-06, 01:46 PM
Ah Ha.
The Yankees are getting their foot in the door.
Interesting. Is this Moose's potential replacement?
Let us hope he can give us what Moose gave us.
JeterRodriguezSheff
07-23-06, 01:52 PM
Let us hope he can give us what Moose gave us.
I think he is going to put up some big numbers in the first year. He has great stuff and nobody has seen him before.
Yankee Steve
07-23-06, 02:17 PM
Be careful... the same was said about Hideki Irabu.
Be careful... the same was said about Hideki Irabu.
Irabu was fat, lazy, and hyped up.
Yankee Steve
07-23-06, 05:11 PM
Agreed, but you heard nothing about that beforehand. One thing we can be sure of is the Matsuazaka will instantly lose 3 to 4 MPH the second he signs a Yankee contract. Seems to happen to EVERYONE we sign.... sigh.
Michaels07
07-23-06, 08:09 PM
Be careful... the same was said about Hideki Irabu.
No comparison. Boras is his agent, 15 million to win the post plus 5 yrs at 60million total. Yanks will trade Pavano and free up some dollars.
27IsNext
07-23-06, 09:25 PM
No comparison. Boras is his agent, 15 million to win the post plus 5 yrs at 60million total. Yanks will trade Pavano and free up some dollars.
No way he gets that much. He'll get around 4/$40 million.
LecheCaberera2826
07-23-06, 09:28 PM
So we got him signed, for how much?
albo4lyfe
07-23-06, 09:29 PM
No comparison. Boras is his agent, 15 million to win the post plus 5 yrs at 60million total. Yanks will trade Pavano and free up some dollars.
I don't see how Pavano is tradeable w/ his contract and all these injuries that keep popping up. Who the hell would want him?
JeterRodriguezSheff
07-23-06, 09:32 PM
I don't see how Pavano is tradeable w/ his contract and all these injuries that keep popping up. Who the hell would want him?
To get back at the Royals we should offer them Pavano for Alex Gordan.
LecheCaberera2826
07-23-06, 09:46 PM
Is he signed or not?
Matsui55
07-23-06, 09:47 PM
From Sunday 7/23 Newsday article by Ken Davidoff
http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spken234827324jul23,0,2531921.column?coll=ny-sports-print
"The Seibu Lions could post the 25-year-old righthander this winter, through the same blind-auction style by which Seattle landed Ichiro Suzuki in November 2000; the Yankees didn't even bid for Ichiro, much to their chagrin.
Few insiders, however, believe that the auction consists merely of a guesstimate. Only the most naive think that back-channel relationships don't play a role.
Which is why Japanese insiders have taken note of a recent Yankees hiring. As first reported by Sankei Sports, the Yankees have taken Shoichi Kida aboard as an associate scout, who will be based in his native land. Kida went to the same high school as Matsuzaka, although the two men are four years apart, and the former infielder spent time in Seibu as Matsuzaka's teammate."
Come on people! I've been telling you the SAME THING for weeks now- but you don't believe me until you see it in the "official media?"
Go back and re-read my last 2 posts- while Davidoff is on target, it is clear he doesn't understand what his sources are trying to tell him. The basic point is this- the relationship trumps the cash.
Don't even think for a second that the Yanks developing that "working relationship" with the Yomiuri Giants had nothing to do with signing Matsui. While Matsui was a FA, he felt bound by the loyalty factor to Yomiuri to follow their "guidance" on which team they felt would be appropriate for him to sign with.
Seibu won't be any different. If Boras tries to bully the team into moving Matsuzaka to the team Boras wants, he is in for a large suprise. Davidoff is right- appearances are not what they seem to be in Japanese negotiations.
Iknowcool
07-23-06, 10:02 PM
What I like about Matsuazaka is that we won't have to give up a draft pick to sign him.
albo4lyfe
07-23-06, 11:13 PM
To get back at the Royals we should offer them Pavano for Alex Gordan.
LOL, that'd be a good one. It'd remind them what a ridiculous request it was for Hughes in a trade for Sanders.
JeterRodriguezSheff
07-24-06, 12:56 AM
LOL, that'd be a good one. It'd remind them what a ridiculous request it was for Hughes in a trade for Sanders.
Yeah and with them being the Royals and all, there is always the slim chance they might actually agree to the deal.
Yeah and with them being the Royals and all, there is always the slim chance they might actually agree to the deal.
LOL.:D
Don't know how accurate it is but on my Japanese baseball video game
Daisuke averages around 91-93 mph on his fastball sometimes touches 95.
JeterRodriguezSheff
07-24-06, 09:50 PM
Don't know how accurate it is but on my Japanese baseball video game
Daisuke averages around 91-93 mph on his fastball sometimes touches 95.
That seems to be right from a video I saw on Youtube.
mikeplugh
08-27-06, 03:14 AM
Hey guys.
I've been posting over at the Zito/Mussina/Matsuzaka thread, wherever that is, and thought I'd chime in over here too.
If you haven't looked at that thread, I've covered some important ground on Daisuke recently. Matsui55 is doing a very nice job of it everywhere I read.
If you want to check out my analysis and somewhat day-to-day updates on his pitching and posting, head over to my blog at:
www.matsuzaka.blogspot.com
I'm a resident of Japan and a big Yankee fan. I try to keep up to date with as much Pro Yakyu stuff as possible, and bring it to Yankee fans via my main blog at:
www.canyonofheroes.blogspot.com
Check that one out too. Let's bring Daisuke to the Big Apple.
Mike.
albo4lyfe
08-27-06, 04:06 AM
Hey guys.
I've been posting over at the Zito/Mussina/Matsuzaka thread, wherever that is, and thought I'd chime in over here too.
If you haven't looked at that thread, I've covered some important ground on Daisuke recently. Matsui55 is doing a very nice job of it everywhere I read.
If you want to check out my analysis and somewhat day-to-day updates on his pitching and posting, head over to my blog at:
www.matsuzaka.blogspot.com (http://www.matsuzaka.blogspot.com)
I'm a resident of Japan and a big Yankee fan. I try to keep up to date with as much Pro Yakyu stuff as possible, and bring it to Yankee fans via my main blog at:
www.canyonofheroes.blogspot.com (http://www.canyonofheroes.blogspot.com)
Check that one out too. Let's bring Daisuke to the Big Apple.
Mike.
The blog looks like it's filled w/ info on Matsuzaka and I agree that we need to bring Daisuke to the Big Apple and specifically to the Bronx. Thanks for the links.
LecheCaberera2826
08-27-06, 09:39 PM
So can we sign him right now, or do we have to wait until the offseason to do so?
metalboy15
08-27-06, 10:29 PM
So can we sign him right now, or do we have to wait until the offseason to do so?
we´ll have to wait for the offseason...
LecheCaberera2826
08-27-06, 10:34 PM
we´ll have to wait for the offseason...
damn!!!
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