View Full Version : merged: Ortiz blows top, throws bat
He was called out on strikes facing Scott Shields ... He argued, and got tossed out. Back in the dugout he threw two bats onto the field ... close to the first base umpire. Boston is LEADING 3-2 in the seventh inning. The Anaheim announcers think the pitch might have been high. (I can't see it; I'm listening on MLB.com radio.)
This isn't like him ... he's usually pretty good-natured, isn't he? :confused:
barrybaseball
07-16-04, 11:28 PM
I'm watching the Sox/Angels game...David Ortiz went BALLISTIC on a third strike call and looked like he was gonna pound the home plate ump into goo. It took just about every Sox coach to restrain him.
So he gets tossed, storms into the dugout, and then throws a couple of bats directly at two umpires standing on the field.
I'm sure I'll be called biased, but can you imagine a Yankee acting like this? With Torre? Not in a million years.
Irony Of It All
07-16-04, 11:31 PM
In the 7th inning against the Angels David Ortiz got called out on a very questionable 3rd strike call. Francona rushed out and had to forcibly keep him separated from the ump. Anyways Ortiz was still thrown out and when he was in the dugout he grabbed some bats and threw them at the umps. I still can't believe he actually threw bats at them and I wonder how many games this is going to cost him. This is very surprising from someone who seems like a really nice guy.
parkerstrong
07-16-04, 11:31 PM
The Red Sox announcers said he blew up when he was in Minnesota once, but not like that. I havent seen it, but the anouncers said he will be suspended.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-16-04, 11:34 PM
I am not aware if you've watched this entire game, but the home plate umpire had been absolutely PATHETIC. The announcers have been harping on him for being miserable for both sides, and it was only a matter of time until something like this happened. While the incident where Ortiz tossed the bats was completely unnecessary, his initial reaction was not IMO. This is the first and only time I can ever remember David Ortiz becoming visibly upset over anything, and quite frankly, I don't blame him. By far the worst job i've seen of a home plate ump all year.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-16-04, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All
In the 7th inning against the Angels David Ortiz got called out on a very questionable 3rd strike call. Francona rushed out and had to forcibly keep him separated from the ump. Anyways Ortiz was still thrown out and when he was in the dugout he grabbed some bats and threw them at the umps. I still can't believe he actually threw bats at them and I wonder how many games this is going to cost him. This is very surprising from someone who seems like a really nice guy.
I don't think the bats were directed at the umps, I think it was just a sign of frustration (they happened to take several large bounces and come very close to hitting them, but I don't think it was intentional).
One of those bats looks like it hit an umpire too. Despite a superhuman effort by Francona he still managed to make contact with one of them.
He's going to be out some time and some dough for sure. Yeouch.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-16-04, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by barrybaseball
I'm sure I'll be called biased, but can you imagine a Yankee acting like this? With Torre? Not in a million years.
While I won't call you biased, your comparison is completely unnecessary. And by the way, Francona did an excellent job of restraining Ortiz when he could have gotten himself in MUCH more trouble by bumping into the ump.
It takes a lot to get Shrek mad, but watch out when he flips his lid.
Irony Of It All
07-16-04, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
I don't think the bats were directed at the umps, I think it was just a sign of frustration (they happened to take several large bounces and come very close to hitting them, but I don't think it was intentional).
You're right I worded that completely wrong. I'm sure he didn't want to hit them but it's still unbelievable that he actually threw them. I can't blame him for being pissed as that was an absolutely horrendous call but it just surprised me to see him act this way.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-16-04, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All
You're right I worded that completely wrong. I'm sure he didn't want to hit them but it's still unbelievable that he actually threw them. I can't blame him for being pissed as that was an absolutely horrendous call but it just surprised me to see him act this way.
Agreed on all points. Its unfortunate that the frustration level got so high that he completely lost his head.
Freeway96
07-16-04, 11:43 PM
they kept showing it on baseball tonight which I'm watching right now.. truth be told, I do not know how long Carl was suspended for littering the field with baseballs.. I find Ortiz' act tonight far worse and more disgraceful
DO NOT BE SURPRISED if He's not only fined major major buck$, but suspended for 10+ games as well.. for an "all star".. I don't see Selig and co. taking this lightly and may well make an example of him
he's definitely out at LEAST 7 games, I'm betting 12, hoping for 15 games... he's surely going to miss the Yankee series.. and frankly being one of the more potent redsox weapons this season...
I tend to agree with the baseball tonight people that Ortiz hurt his team more tonight than even he probably realizes.. yes, this is awful, awful news for the Redsox
and yes... I am all smiles :)
barrybaseball
07-16-04, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
While I won't call you biased, your comparison is completely unnecessary. And by the way, Francona did an excellent job of restraining Ortiz when he could have gotten himself in MUCH more trouble by bumping into the ump.
No, he didn't. Francona had to physically restrain Ortiz with the help of a few coaches. They basically formed a cocoon around Ortiz to keep him from bumrushing the ump.
I just cannot see any Yankee defying Torre like that. Makes you wonder how much respect Francona has in that dugout.
And yes...I do agree the umpire was awful and maybe even deserved a shot to the gut (just kidding...mostly).
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-16-04, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Freeway96
they kept showing it on baseball tonight which I'm watching right now.. truth be told, I do not know how long Carl was suspended for littering the field with baseballs.. I find Ortiz' act tonight far worse and more disgraceful
DO NOT BE SURPRISED if He's not only fined major major buck$, but suspended for 10+ games as well.. for an "all star".. I don't see Selig and co. taking this lightly and may well make an example of him
he's definitely out at LEAST 7 games, I'm betting 12, hoping for 15 games... he's surely going to miss the Yankee series.. and frankly being one of the more potent redsox weapons this season...
I tend to agree with the baseball tonight people that Ortiz hurt his team more tonight than even he probably realizes.. yes, this is awful, awful news for the Redsox
and yes... I am all smiles :)
The only thing that will get him in major trouble is the bat throwing. If league officials are smart and review the entire game, I suspect they may lessen the penalty accordingly. And if I'm not mistaken, if a player appeals a suspension, it can be pushed back, so don't necessarily bet on him missing any Yankee games.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-16-04, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by barrybaseball
No, he didn't. Francona had to physically restrain Ortiz with the help of a few coaches. They basically formed a cocoon around Ortiz to keep him from bumrushing the ump.
I just cannot see any Yankee defying Torre like that. Makes you wonder how much respect Francona has in that dugout.
And yes...I do agree the umpire was awful and maybe even deserved a shot to the gut (just kidding...mostly).
Do you see the size of Ortiz? Do you see the size of Francona? He did a DAMNED good job.
Freeway96
07-16-04, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by barrybaseball
No, he didn't. Francona had to physically restrain Ortiz with the help of a few coaches. They basically formed a cocoon around Ortiz to keep him from bumrushing the ump.
I just cannot see any Yankee defying Torre like that. Makes you wonder how much respect Francona has in that dugout.
And yes...I do agree the umpire was awful and maybe even deserved a shot to the gut (just kidding...mostly).
none of us has to speculate on the respect factor.. Posada went ballistic on an ump as well too this season literally going after the guy and for the 1st time ever, I saw Torre *RUN* out of the dugout to restrain Posada.. (at the time, Posada was the only catcher remaining)
but the point is.. as angry as Jorge was.. as much as he probably would go after the ump.. when he saw Torre barrier himself from the ump he angrily backed down, Joe had to pull his arm and lead him off the field because Jorge still wanted to charge the ump :P but yes... no speculation
Ortiz trampled Francona...
Joe Torre has players' respect and will not be the baseball version of Van Gundy rag doll :P
barrybaseball
07-16-04, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
Do you see the size of Ortiz? Do you see the size of Francona? He did a DAMNED good job.
You're missing my point. He shouldn't HAVE to physically restrain his player. His player should have enough respect for him to go back to the dugout and end it when his skipper tells him to.
parkerstrong
07-16-04, 11:50 PM
The umpiring has been horrible for both teams. The calls against Boston also happen against Anaheim. I havent seen it yet, but what about his spot in the lineup? Since Ortiz was the DH, did they have to replace Ortiz once he got kicked out of the game, or when his spot comes up again in the game? I was wondering.
Freeway96
07-16-04, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
The only thing that will get him in major trouble is the bat throwing. If league officials are smart and review the entire game, I suspect they may lessen the penalty accordingly. And if I'm not mistaken, if a player appeals a suspension, it can be pushed back, so don't necessarily bet on him missing any Yankee games.
..one of the bats hit an umpire dude
they showed it on baseball tonight, extra slo-mo complete with commentary/joke about how ortiz threw the bat at the homeplate umpire but hit the other umpire instead... believe me when i say Ortiz is looking at far more than a mere 5 games..
but then again I admit that I do not know how severe Carl Everrett's punishment was.. does anyone know how many games he missed? o_O that would be a good baseline since Ortiz will miss at LEAST that much
Brushback45
07-16-04, 11:52 PM
If you have watched this ENTIRE game, then you have a right to make a comment about it. Otherwise, please refrain.
The call in question was a strike, but tonight was by far the WORST umpiring I can ever remember seeing.
Pedro and Escobar were outstanding and both would've pitched very deep into this game if not for an awfully inconsistent strike zone. Both sides were getting squeezed equally as bad and Ortiz was the one to finally blow up.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-16-04, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by parkerstrong
The umpiring has been horrible for both teams. The calls against Boston also happen against Anaheim. I havent seen it yet, but what about his spot in the lineup? Since Ortiz was the DH, did they have to replace Ortiz once he got kicked out of the game, or when his spot comes up again in the game? I was wondering.
Ortiz was DHing, and when his spot comes up they send in a replacement. I would HOPE that they put Manny in to fill the spot as he's previously been resting his hammys this game. Kapler's HR helped make it slightly less crucial, but I'd like to see ManRam in there.
parkerstrong
07-16-04, 11:54 PM
they wont lessen the suspension due to the umpires calls...you are suppose to respect the umpires. they have the authority. ortiz can appeal his suspension, and probably will play against NY. I dont see MLB hearing his appeal right before the Yankee series.
Brushback45
07-16-04, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by parkerstrong
they wont lessen the suspension due to the umpires calls...you are suppose to respect the umpires. they have the authority. ortiz can appeal his suspension, and probably will play against NY. I dont see MLB hearing his appeal right before the Yankee series.
No, of course they won't.
The whole point was to explain WHY Ortiz blew up like he did. It wasn't just ONE call he didn't agree with. Nobody in that ballpark was happy with the umpiring tonight. Not the fans, the managers, the hitters or the pitchers. I've never seen Pedro ever get squeezed like some minor league pitcher. It was great to see him throwing as hard as 96 mph. Haven't seen so much zip in a very long time. I have to say Escobar was probably squeezed equally as bad.
cubswin
07-17-04, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by barrybaseball
I'm watching the Sox/Angels game...David Ortiz went BALLISTIC on a third strike call and looked like he was gonna pound the home plate ump into goo. It took just about every Sox coach to restrain him.
So he gets tossed, storms into the dugout, and then throws a couple of bats directly at two umpires standing on the field.
I'm sure I'll be called biased, but can you imagine a Yankee acting like this? With Torre? Not in a million years.
"thug"? you're not just biased, you're simply wrong. A Yankee act like that? No, of course not. No Yankee has ever lost his cool. :rolleyes:
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 12:01 AM
I was watching the game on the NESN feed and as many times as they showed it, I still can't believe that Francona was able to hold him back...sometimes you see people just making it look like they want to be held back to show how mad they are when they don't really want a piece of the other person -- not this time -- Ortiz really looked like he wanted to kill that ump...Ortiz is usually pretty level-headed -- makes me think that maybe the ump said something in that exchange that made him really freak out, not just being tossed...but who knows...
The pitch looked like a ball to me but nothing too ridiculous...but if the umpiring was that inconsistent all night as the announcers had said, sometimes it is only a matter of frustration that can make one person blow...I'm just surprised it was Ortiz -- I think he would have been fine up until the bat throwing -- that's unfortunate...did you see Damon on the bench when he threw them? :D too funny...what did Milton Bradley get earlier this year? Ortiz is probably looking at the same suspension...
Irony Of It All
07-17-04, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Brushback45
No, of course they won't.
The whole point was to explain WHY Ortiz blew up like he did. It wasn't just ONE call he didn't agree with. Nobody in that ballpark was happy with the umpiring tonight. Not the fans, the managers, the hitters or the pitchers. I've never seen Pedro ever get squeezed like some minor league pitcher. It was great to see him throwing as hard as 96 mph. Haven't seen so much zip in a very long time. I have to say Escobar was probably squeezed equally as bad.
The umpiring on a whole has been horrrible this year. Ortiz made a huge mistake and I'm sure he'll learn from it, but it is still inexcusable what he did.
cubswin
07-17-04, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by -tz
He was called out on strikes facing Scott Shields ... He argued, and got tossed out. Back in the dugout he threw two bats onto the field ... close to the first base umpire. Boston is LEADING 3-2 in the seventh inning. The Anaheim announcers think the pitch might have been high. (I can't see it; I'm listening on MLB.com radio.)
This isn't like him ... he's usually pretty good-natured, isn't he? :confused:
Yes, he is. Not sure why he blew his top like that.
Pitch was actually pretty good, I thought. High and tight, but a strike, I think. Ortiz probably didn't think so be/c he crouches and is on top of the plate, plus the pitch seemed to tail back over (at 94mph -- nice pitch!) I can't say whether it was consistent w/earlier calls, however, as I was dozing off at times. But many batters from both teams were complaining, whatever that's worth.
Regardless, Ortiz's actions were inexcusable, and I'm sure he realizes that now.
Brushback45
07-17-04, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All
The umpiring on a whole has been horrrible this year. Ortiz made a huge mistake and I'm sure he'll learn from it, but it is still inexcusable what he did.
I'm as disgusted as anyone. To say the Red Sox don't need Ortiz serving a suspension right now would be the understatement of the YEAR. I'm just glad Pedro kept his cool... it didn't get off to a great start when the ump called time as he was literally ready to release the ball from the mound. We know what happens after that. Thankfully, it didn't.
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by barrybaseball
I'm sure I'll be called biased, but can you imagine a Yankee acting like this? With Torre? Not in a million years.
Yes, I can...if the frustration level gets high enough -- who knows, maybe Ortiz had something else on his mind that night that could have made him have a shorter fuse than normal and the bad umpiring made him blow -- I wouldn't have normally expected that from Ortiz...if that happens to someone, it doesn't matter who the manager is, it happens too quickly to stop...no manager can control heat of the moment, although they may be able to stop it from happening again...
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 12:07 AM
ugh, off topic the dreaded "Yankees Suck" loser chant just started loud and clear...do they know how dumb that sounds?
Brushback45
07-17-04, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
ugh, off topic the dreaded "Yankees Suck" loser chant just started loud and clear...do they know how dumb that sounds?
No, they probably don't. I'm not surprised... this game has been absolutely off the handle, and it's the 9th inning.
:lol:@Sean: "Might as well flip a coin."
Crazy. Obviously it doesn't excuse Ortiz, but MLB needs to do something about these umps.
cubswin
07-17-04, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Freeway96
they kept showing it on baseball tonight which I'm watching right now.. truth be told, I do not know how long Carl was suspended for littering the field with baseballs.. I find Ortiz' act tonight far worse and more disgraceful
DO NOT BE SURPRISED if He's not only fined major major buck$, but suspended for 10+ games as well.. for an "all star".. I don't see Selig and co. taking this lightly and may well make an example of him
he's definitely out at LEAST 7 games, I'm betting 12, hoping for 15 games... he's surely going to miss the Yankee series.. and frankly being one of the more potent redsox weapons this season...
I tend to agree with the baseball tonight people that Ortiz hurt his team more tonight than even he probably realizes.. yes, this is awful, awful news for the Redsox
and yes... I am all smiles :)
I wouldn't think 15. I'm guessing 5. And I'm sure they'll appeal so as to not have him miss the Yanks series.
Irony Of It All
07-17-04, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
ugh, off topic the dreaded "Yankees Suck" loser chant just started loud and clear...do they know how dumb that sounds?
I heard that as well. Fans like that are idiots plain and simple.
knickfan23
07-17-04, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
ugh, off topic the dreaded "Yankees Suck" loser chant just started loud and clear...do they know how dumb that sounds?
No.
Even in Anaheim, it looks like peeps cant get enough of the chant.
Freeway96
07-17-04, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by cubswin
Yes, he is. Not sure why he blew his top like that.
Pitch was actually pretty good, I thought. High and tight, but a strike, I think. Ortiz probably didn't think so be/c he crouches and is on top of the plate, plus the pitch seemed to tail back over (at 94mph -- nice pitch!) I can't say whether it was consistent w/earlier calls, however, as I was dozing off at times. But many batters from both teams were complaining, whatever that's worth.
Regardless, Ortiz's actions were inexcusable, and I'm sure he realizes that now.
there was a flippant comment on baseball tonight while they kept replaying ortiz throwing the bats at the umpires, "Think there's some building frustration on the Redsox? hehehehe" :P
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by cubswin
I wouldn't think 15. I'm guessing 5. And I'm sure they'll appeal so as to not have him miss the Yanks series.
Bradley got 4 for the ball throwing, although it just delayed the game, wasn't in the direction of an ump or two (although I don't think that was Ortiz's intention, that's where they went)...I say 8 games, knocked back to 5 after the Yankee series...
Freeway96
07-17-04, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
ugh, off topic the dreaded "Yankees Suck" loser chant just started loud and clear...do they know how dumb that sounds?
LMFAO :) they're chanting yankees suck.. during a redsox-angels game?
wtf? :) LOL that's hella funny! thanks, i can go to bed with a good laugh now , ciao folks!
:( Game over. Sox win, 4-2.
Brushback45
07-17-04, 12:20 AM
Sox win. :)
Pedro goes to 10-3, winning his 6th straight decision.
He obviously feels great to not have missed a start yet and to come out and throw 95 mph all game long. If he PITCHES like he did tonight and assuming he won't get squeezed that bad again, he'll be making a late run at the Cy Young. Easily.
cubswin
07-17-04, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Freeway96
there was a flippant comment on baseball tonight while they kept replaying ortiz throwing the bats at the umpires, "Think there's some building frustration on the Redsox? hehehehe" :P
just another example of that blatant ESPN anti-Sox bias
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 12:22 AM
Just watched it again and I never guessed Francona had it in him -- he probably swallowed some of his chew on that one! :D I'm surprised Schilling hasn't convinced his buddy to give up that habit...it's the grossest thing in the world...
Someone should check that umpire's pants too. :D if he says he feared for his life, Ortiz might get 10 games. :D
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-17-04, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
Just watched it again and I never guessed Francona had it in him -- he probably swallowed some of his chew on that one! :D I'm surprised Schilling hasn't convinced his buddy to give up that habit...it's the grossest thing in the world...
Schill hasn't been able to kick it either yet. There was a big Globe article a week or two ago about chewing tobacco on the Red Sox. A lot of guys have a problem with it. One guy who has kicked the habit is Nixon, and its one reason why he gained so much weight last year. He was eating instead of chewing. But good for him. Addiction of any sort is a tough thing to overcome.
Irony Of It All
07-17-04, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by cubswin
just another example of that blatant ESPN anti-Sox bias
What are you implying? ;)
cubswin
07-17-04, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All
What are you implying? ;)
don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about :)
Irony Of It All
07-17-04, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by cubswin
don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about :)
As a concerned Yankee fan I'm disgusted with the prejudice that ESPN has against the Red Sox. If a Yankee player did the same thing I doubt they'd even mention it. ;)
I just saw it on ESPN News. Ortiz is screwed.
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
Schill hasn't been able to kick it either yet. There was a big Globe article a week or two ago about chewing tobacco on the Red Sox. A lot of guys have a problem with it. One guy who has kicked the habit is Nixon, and its one reason why he gained so much weight last year. He was eating instead of chewing. But good for him. Addiction of any sort is a tough thing to overcome.
ugh -- that's a bad thing...I'm surprised -- I thought I had read something back when Curt was with AZ about him getting someone else to quit -- I think it was around the time his wife got skin cancer...maybe come to think about it was about him not being able to give it up and being scared about it?
at one spring training game, Mussina had taken a come-backer and Gooden went in to warm up - -it was taking awhile :D so my friend and I started chatting with Delgado and Mondesi (still on Toronto) -- both VERY nice -- some guy near us butts in and asked Mondesi to try his dip and he did and they both laughed at the guy as he made a fool out of himself...it's the most disgusting thing in the world to me...
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-17-04, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
ugh -- that's a bad thing...I'm surprised -- I thought I had read something back when Curt was with AZ about him getting someone else to quit -- I think it was around the time his wife got skin cancer...maybe come to think about it was about him not being able to give it up and being scared about it?
Curt had kicked it actually, they mentioned that in the article. But then I think it was the offseason that did him in. Interesting that he never chews on days he pitches, its the sitting around that does it. Lunachick-you should try an archive search of the Boston Globe and see if you can find it. Written by Stan Grossfeld I believe (always does great stories). It was really well written and made some good points about chewing tobacco as a whole. They also ran a side article that day about a young man who had lost half his face from chewing. Puts things in perspective.
SoxFanXL
07-17-04, 12:49 AM
I'm kinda glad Ortiz blew up, even if we lose him for about 5 games (hopefully after the yankee series), he was just sticking up for his teamates... the umpiring was HORRIBLE today. Worst called game i've seen so far this year, Pedro had half of the plate to work with as the strikezone while all of the Angels pitchers had HUGE strikezones. Pedro didn't get the right corner all game long... it was HORRENDOUS.
When Pedro Martinez walks 4 people, especially when he's on like he was tonight... you know something is wrong with the umpire. Most if not all of the Sox players complained about the umpire tonight... even Pokey and Nomar almost got ejected for arguing after a strike out.
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
Lunachick-you should try an archive search of the Boston Globe and see if you can find it. Written by Stan Grossfeld I believe (always does great stories). It was really well written and made some good points about chewing tobacco as a whole. They also ran a side article that day about a young man who had lost half his face from chewing. Puts things in perspective. Two articles on the topic, both by Grossfield, appeared on July 6, 2004. They're only available now from the newspaper's for pay archives. Here are the summaries:
SOX DON'T WANT TO CHEW ON THIS ISSUE
Published on July 6, 2004
Author(s): Stan Grossfeld, Globe Staff
In a recent interview in the Red Sox clubhouse, Curt Schilling was asked about what he would tell kids who might emulate their major league heroes in the use of smokeless tobacco - or spit tobacco or snuff.
"Don't start," he said. "It's a horrible, disgusting, dirty habit. There's so many more complications to it than the average addiction. But it's a health risk. I've never smoked. I just know that it's a hard thing to beat."
SCHILLING FIGHTS HIS TOUGHEST BATTLE - TRYING TO QUIT A LONG-STANDING ADDICTION
Published on July 6, 2004
Author(s): Stan Grossfeld, Globe Staff
For Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling it is harder than firing a split-fingered fastball past Alex Rodriguez. Harder than beating the Yankees.
"It's obviously the hardest thing I've ever tried to do. Quit," said Schilling about his greatest opponent, smokeless tobacco. "And I still haven't done it yet."
The archives are here: http://www.boston.com/tools/archives/
I did a search on "chewing tobacco" and Schilling.
Of course ... this is rather off topic in this thread ... :eek:
flymick24
07-17-04, 12:51 AM
as a yankees fan, i like david ortiz a lot. i'm surprised that he would do something like this... i thought he was a pretty good-natured guy.
anybody have any pics of the incident?
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-17-04, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by SoxFanXL
Worst called game i've seen so far this year, Pedro had half of the plate to work with as the strikezone while all of the Angels pitchers had HUGE strikezones. Pedro didn't get the right corner all game long... it was HORRENDOUS.
It looked worse for Pedro because he was making better pitches, but both sides were being squeezed.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-17-04, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by -tz
Two articles on the topic, both by Grossfield, appeared on July 6, 2004. They're only available now from the newspaper's for pay archives. Here are the summaries:
The archives are here: http://www.boston.com/tools/archives/
I did a search on "chewing tobacco" and Schilling.
Of course ... this is rather off topic in this thread ... :eek:
Thanks for looking that up tz. Sorry to hear they're pay-only, but they were good reads.
stevethesoxfan
07-17-04, 12:58 AM
I've never seen Ortiz get even moderately upset before. He went OFF on that ump. Wow. The call was bad but not a horrendous call -- it was off the strike zone but not by that much. I'm guessing the ump said something really nasty to Ortiz to make him react in such an uncharacteristic way.
To the poster who said a Yankee would never react that way with Torre around --- please - I'm so sick of the "holier than thou" Yankee act that a minority (note I said a MINORITY) of Yankee posters spew. If someone's buttons are pushed, they are going to react, and it won't matter what uniform they have on or what manager they have. Torre is a great manager in my opinion but if Ortiz was a Yankee (or it was ARod, Sheffield, etc.) he would still have snapped.
Carl Everett was suspended for 10 games for headbutting an ump in 2000. That was intentional. Since Ortiz apparently didn't intend to hit the umps with the bats I suspect his suspension will be less. I'm guessing 7 games. Still a bonehead move to toss them though.
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
Thanks for looking that up tz. Sorry to hear they're pay-only, but they were good reads.
actually they aren't pay only if you go through google and not through the site itself -- here are the links...thanks for suggesting it -- they were both good reads.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/07/06/sox_dont_want_to_chew_on_this_issue?pg=2
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/07/06/vice_grip?pg=full
It's a shame that so many Sox are into that -- it's REALLY bad, not to mention gross ;) I wonder if any of the current Yankees use it...I'm trying to think now but it doesn't sound familiar...ironic part is while Francona is dipping, Torre is drinking his green tea (post his cancer experience)...
tz -- sorry to get off topic... :)
SoxFanXL
07-17-04, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
I've never seen Ortiz get even moderately upset before. He went OFF on that ump. Wow. The call was bad but not a horrendous call -- it was off the strike zone but not by that much. I'm guessing the ump said something really nasty to Ortiz to make him react in such an uncharacteristic way.
People have to realize it wasn't ONLY about that 1 strike call, it was about the ENTIRE GAME! It was a horribly called game, the umpire was doing everything in his power to hand the Angels the game. He went too far but IMO his intent was to stick up for his teamates who had been recivieving bad calls all game long. And since Francona is too much of a [female dog] to argue anything and get thrown out of a game, Ortiz did it for him. He didn't touch the umpires, he didn't purposely throw the bats at the umpires, he flipped them up and out of the dug out underhanded, he didn't throw them at anyone.. they just rolled towards the umpires that were standing there. He won't get more than 5 games, and if he does he'll just appeal it and use it when he's facing tampa bay or some crappy team.
twentyquestions
07-17-04, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by SoxFanXL
People have to realize it wasn't ONLY about that 1 strike call, it was about the ENTIRE GAME! It was a horribly called game, the umpire was doing everything in his power to hand the Angels the game. He went too far but IMO his intent was to stick up for his teamates who had been recivieving bad calls all game long. And since Francona is too much of a [female dog] to argue anything and get thrown out of a game, Ortiz did it for him. He didn't touch the umpires, he didn't purposely throw the bats at the umpires, he flipped them up and out of the dug out underhanded, he didn't throw them at anyone.. they just rolled towards the umpires that were standing there. He won't get more than 5 games, and if he does he'll just appeal it and use it when he's facing tampa bay or some crappy team.
I agree that the game was poorly called - however, I think that the umpire made bad calls for both Anaheim and Boston. Remy and Sean would agree.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-17-04, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by twentyquestions
I agree that the game was poorly called - however, I think that the umpire made bad calls for both Anaheim and Boston. Remy and Sean would agree.
Agreed. It just looked to me like the ump was trying to suck.
Carissa
07-17-04, 01:09 AM
http://www.ultimateyankees.com/Jorge_Posada_Arguing_2.jpg
http://www.anteprima.net/Baseball/fotografie/foto/JorgePosada.jpg
http://www.ultimateyankees.com/Jorge_Posada_Arguing_1.jpg
http://www.ultimateyankees.com/Jorge_Posada_Arguing_4.jpg
http://www.ultimateyankees.com/Jorge_Posada_Arguing_3.jpg
Although I don't think that Jorge intentionally spit on the umpire in this case, I think this can qualify as losing it. I know that his baby boy was in the hospital for his 7th(?) surgery which got infected, which led him to be under enormous stress.
Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
I'm so sick of the "holier than thou" Yankee act that a minority (note I said a MINORITY) of Yankee posters spew.
I suspect that they know that, which is why they keep doing it.
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by SoxFanXL
People have to realize it wasn't ONLY about that 1 strike call, it was about the ENTIRE GAME! It was a horribly called game, the umpire was doing everything in his power to hand the Angels the game. He went too far but IMO his intent was to stick up for his teamates who had been recivieving bad calls all game long. And since Francona is too much of a [female dog] to argue anything and get thrown out of a game, Ortiz did it for him. He didn't touch the umpires, he didn't purposely throw the bats at the umpires, he flipped them up and out of the dug out underhanded, he didn't throw them at anyone.. they just rolled towards the umpires that were standing there. He won't get more than 5 games, and if he does he'll just appeal it and use it when he's facing tampa bay or some crappy team.
I don't disagree with what you said up until the point about how many games...I don't think Watson is going to look at the tape and think "wow, our guy wasn't doing a great job, I can see why David got so outraged...even though he appeared he was going to kill one of the umps, and then went back a second time after they had separated them, and then went into the dugout and recklessly threw some bats that could have hit anyone, but he threw them underhanded -- let's give him 5 games"...I don't think Ortiz would ever have an intent to hurt someone but the point is he easily could have, and they don't take that lightly...
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Carissa
Although I don't think that Jorge intentionally spit on the umpire in this case, I think this can qualify as losing it. I know that his baby boy was in the hospital for his 7th(?) surgery which got infected, which led him to be under enormous stress.
Nothing, NOTHING gets me more aggravated than Posada arguing balls and strikes -- it happened again not too long ago minus the spittle. ;) He's a catcher and it's inexcusable...ranking a close second of fury watching Yankee games for me is when he refuses to block the plate but I digress...my least favorite Yankee, can you tell? :D
PippyPinstripes
07-17-04, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by barrybaseball
I'm sure I'll be called biased, but can you imagine a Yankee acting like this? With Torre? Not in a million years.
I don't know, man. Jorgie has a pretty hot temper!
PippyPinstripes
07-17-04, 01:22 AM
Hah, I posted that before I read the rest of the thread and people were already talking about Jorge.
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 01:25 AM
Just did a quick search on this Matt Hollowell ump which I believe was the home plate ump tonight...Higginson was suspended 2 games for throwing his shin gard in the direction of his dugout after striking out swinging - -it may or may not have grazed Hollowell and he ejected him...and he hadn't even argued anything...may have an itchy trigger finger. :D
http://www.detnews.com/2003/tigers/0309/25/c06-280174.htm
Looks like he ejected Hershiser earlier this year for questioning his strike zone:
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/otherMLB/view.bg?articleid=22220&format=
Notes: Texas pitching coach Orel Hershiser was ejected in the second inning by plate umpire Matt Hollowell after asking about his strike zone.
Orel didn't even last through the 2nd inning. :D
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 01:36 AM
Quote of the night:
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=35996&format=
Manager Terry Francona took one for the team, placing himself between Ortiz' fury and Hollowell so no physical contact took place.
``I didn't really see it all,'' Francona said. ``I was up in the air most of the time.''
:lol: :lol:
NDBoston
07-17-04, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by PippyPinstripes
I don't know, man. Jorgie has a pretty hot temper!
dead on Pippy. Posada got 5 for his incident.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/2001-10-24/2001-10-24-posada.htm
Then he earned a six-game suspension — later dropped to five — for engaging in a chest-bumping argument with plate umpire Andy Fletcher on Sept. 3 in Toronto. Posada — uncharacteristically — sprayed spit in Fletcher's face and heaved his equipment onto the field in disgust
MiamiKat
07-17-04, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston
dead on Pippy. Posada got 5 for his incident.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/2001-10-24/2001-10-24-posada.htm
Then he earned a six-game suspension — later dropped to five — for engaging in a chest-bumping argument with plate umpire Andy Fletcher on Sept. 3 in Toronto. Posada — uncharacteristically — sprayed spit in Fletcher's face and heaved his equipment onto the field in disgust
So...I'll put the over/under for Ortiz's suspension at 5 games...and I'll take the over.
Based on Posada's penalty, Ortiz could very well be out just 5, but I'll say 7 since he flung bats in the direction of the umpires.
[edited for clarity]
Over, just because the umps could have been seriously hurt.
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 02:10 AM
I already took the over somewhere in this thread at 8 games, knocked back to 5 :D
PippyPinstripes
07-17-04, 02:13 AM
I vote over.
Ooh, let's make wagers!
PippyPinstripes
07-17-04, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston
Posada — uncharacteristically — sprayed spit in Fletcher's face and heaved his equipment onto the field in disgust
It was only semi-uncharacteristic, IMHO. He's definitely a little bit of a hothead, but IIRC, that incident happened when his little son's health was very unstable. I think that had a lot to do with it.
stevethesoxfan
07-17-04, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by PippyPinstripes
It was only semi-uncharacteristic, IMHO. He's definitely a little bit of a hothead, but IIRC, that incident happened when his little son's health was very unstable. I think that had a lot to do with it.
Red Sox notebook: Ortiz, wife welcome son D'Angelo
By Art Davidson, MetroWest Daily News
Sunday, July 11, 2004
BOSTON -- There was a good reason why David Ortiz wasn't in the Red Sox' revamped lineup last night.
Ortiz's wife, Tiffany, gave birth to the couple's first son, D'Angelo, yesterday afternoon. It was a long day for Ortiz, who arrived at Brigham and Women's Hospital at 7:30 a.m. Several hours later, his son was born, weighing 7 pounds, 1 ounce.
Dooley Womack
07-17-04, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by barrybaseball
I'm watching the Sox/Angels game...David Ortiz went BALLISTIC on a third strike call and looked like he was gonna pound the home plate ump into goo. It took just about every Sox coach to restrain him.
So he gets tossed, storms into the dugout, and then throws a couple of bats directly at two umpires standing on the field.
I'm sure I'll be called biased, but can you imagine a Yankee acting like this? With Torre? Not in a million years.
Ummm...remember this fella named Paul O'Neill?
Dooley Womack
07-17-04, 03:42 AM
Here's a pic of Ortiz (top center) getting support from loved ones after tonight's incident.
http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/images_tv/comedy/goodtimes003.jpg
NDBoston
07-17-04, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by KC
Over, just because the umps could have been seriously hurt.
seriously hurt? by some bats that took two to three bounces before coming near them?
I'm reallly upset that Ortiz blew up, and it's 100% out of character, just as it was with Posada.
However, I will have a hard time understand how Alomar gets 5 games for spitting on an ump, Posada gets 5 for spitting and bumping an ump and Ortiz will get more for throwing bats that come close to the umps?
RhodeyYankee2638
07-17-04, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Dooley Womack
Ummm...remember this fella named Paul O'Neill?
Most of the time, Paulie took it out on Water Coolers, and didn't throw them at umpires
RhodeyYankee2638
07-17-04, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Dooley Womack
Here's a pic of Ortiz (top center) getting support from loved ones after tonight's incident.
http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/images_tv/comedy/goodtimes003.jpg
I must say, that picture is DY NO MITE!!!!!
chanman7483
07-17-04, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Clive
One of those bats looks like it hit an umpire too. Despite a superhuman effort by Francona he still managed to make contact with one of them.
He's going to be out some time and some dough for sure. Yeouch.
:lol: even a superhuman effort by terry woudln't be able to hold back the haitian
chanman7483
07-17-04, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Freeway96
he's definitely out at LEAST 7 games, I'm betting 12, hoping for 15 games... he's surely going to miss the Yankee series.. and frankly being one of the more potent redsox weapons this season...
and yes... I am all smiles :)
He could appeal and be available until the decision is made... keeping him around until the yanks come to town.
chanman7483
07-17-04, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Dooley Womack
Ummm...remember this fella named Paul O'Neill?
he never threw a fit against the umpires... it was always him being mad at himself, which is fine.
thecaptain
07-17-04, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by MiamiKat
So...I'll put the over/under for Ortiz's suspension at 5 games...and I'll take the over.
Based on Posada's penalty, Ortiz could very well be out just 5, but I'll say 7 since he flung bats in the direction of the umpires.
[edited for clarity] over , but the ump must have said something to him. i have seen alot of bad umps this year . more then i remember .
Freeway96
07-17-04, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by chanman7483
he never threw a fit against the umpires... it was always him being mad at himself, which is fine.
and I honestly think Paul's done it so much that umpires got used to him yelling at them after striking out, :lol: but I agree.. he mostly took it out on himself and items in the dugout... in medieval times he'd be known as Paul Watercooler-Bane O'neill
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-17-04, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by chanman7483
:lol: even a superhuman effort by terry woudln't be able to hold back the haitian
Who is the haitian? Ortiz is Dominican.
Dooley Womack
07-17-04, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
Most of the time, Paulie took it out on Water Coolers, and didn't throw them at umpires
:lol: Didn't throw water coolers at umpires. That's funny!
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
actually they [the Globe archives] aren't pay only if you go through google and not through the site itself -- here are the links...thanks for suggesting it -- they were both good reads.
Thanks, Luna! As it happened, I had already purchased 10 uses of the Globe's archive for a research project (not baseball-related), and before I knew what I was doing ... I spent one of them reading about Schilling's filthy habit.
From this story ...
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/07/06/sox_dont_want_to_chew_on_this_issue/ :
"Sometimes I just don't feel good when I do it [chew tobacco]," said David Ortiz. "It kind of gets me dizzy." Could this have been a factor last night? :eek:
Seriously, I am going to start a new thread and post links to these stories. I think everyone who uses, or know someone who uses, these products should read them.
barrybaseball
07-17-04, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
ugh, off topic the dreaded "Yankees Suck" loser chant just started loud and clear...do they know how dumb that sounds?
What else are they gonna chant?
"Nomar Pouts!!"
"Only 7 Games Back!!"
"We Were Swept!!"
C'mon...it's Red Sox fans. I don't even know why they're interested in winning a World Series...they wouldn't be able to play the Yankees in one.
Originally posted by NDBoston
seriously hurt? by some bats that took two to three bounces before coming near them?
I'm reallly upset that Ortiz blew up, and it's 100% out of character, just as it was with Posada.
However, I will have a hard time understand how Alomar gets 5 games for spitting on an ump, Posada gets 5 for spitting and bumping an ump and Ortiz will get more for throwing bats that come close to the umps?
Wishful thinking...:D
barrybaseball
07-17-04, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Dooley Womack
Ummm...remember this fella named Paul O'Neill?
When you can point to even ONE instance where Torre or Showalter had to physically restrain O'Neill from punching an ump, you may have a point.
Mine isn't that Yankee players don't get angry, but I defy anyone to tell me when a player ignored Torre so completely in his quest to get at an umpire. Not to mention going back to the dugout so he can hurl crap onto the field.
Originally posted by barrybaseball
When you can point to even ONE instance where Torre or Showalter had to physically restrain O'Neill from punching an ump, you may have a point.
Mine isn't that Yankee players don't get angry, but I defy anyone to tell me when a player ignored Torre so completely in his quest to get at an umpire. Not to mention going back to the dugout so he can hurl crap onto the field.
Why are you bringing the Yankees into this situation? They have nothing to do with it.
And where do you get that Ortiz was going to punch the ump?
Originally posted by NDBoston
seriously hurt? by some bats that took two to three bounces before coming near them?
I'm reallly upset that Ortiz blew up, and it's 100% out of character, just as it was with Posada.
However, I will have a hard time understand how Alomar gets 5 games for spitting on an ump, Posada gets 5 for spitting and bumping an ump and Ortiz will get more for throwing bats that come close to the umps?
Do you think that the Commissioner's Office is going to look at the tape and say, "Well, the bats took two to three bounces before landing close to the umps, so that's not too bad." or "Ortiz threw bats. They almost hit a couple of umps. If they had, the umps would have been injured."?
NelsonMuntz
07-17-04, 11:11 AM
It's no big deal. Ortiz probably just wanted to be first in line at the post game buffet.
Yanks21
07-17-04, 11:13 AM
No matter how bad the umpiring is during the game, you don't throw multiple bats at the umpires. Whether he intended to hit the umpires is irrelevant. He threw the bats at their direction, and the first base umpire was hit. Ortiz faces a long suspension...
Espinosa's Glasses
07-17-04, 11:17 AM
there must have been more behind it... the ump must have hid the cookies
NelsonMuntz
07-17-04, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Espinosa's Glasses
there must have been more behind it... the ump must have hid the cookies
hey Espi, stop stealing my material :lol:
NDBoston
07-17-04, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by KC
Do you think that the Commissioner's Office is going to look at the tape and say, "Well, the bats took two to three bounces before landing close to the umps, so that's not too bad." or "Ortiz threw bats. They almost hit a couple of umps. If they had, the umps would have been injured."?
Do you really think MLB will think the umpires came close to being "seriously hurt" to quote you.
Originally posted by NDBoston
Do you really think MLB will think the umpires came close to being "seriously hurt" to quote you.
If you quote me, it should be "could have been seriously hurt".
I guess we'll find out in a couple of days.
barrybaseball
07-17-04, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by KC
Why are you bringing the Yankees into this situation? They have nothing to do with it.
And where do you get that Ortiz was going to punch the ump?
As for mentioning the Yankees, I was responding to an earlier post.
As for where do I get Ortiz was going to punch the ump? Why would it take four coaches to physically restrain someone? What was Ortiz trying to bust through that human wall to do...ask the guy if he really, REALLY thought it was a third strike?
NDBoston
07-17-04, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by barrybaseball
As for mentioning the Yankees, I was responding to an earlier post.
As for where do I get Ortiz was going to punch the ump? Why would it take four coaches to physically restrain someone? What was Ortiz trying to bust through that human wall to do...ask the guy if he really, REALLY thought it was a third strike?
Can we also say you're very biased here based on this statement
"I'm sure I'll be called biased, but can you imagine a Yankee acting like this? With Torre? Not in a million years." I'm guessing you forgot about the Posada incident.
You're not a mind reader and neither am I. We do know that David Ortiz has never exhibited this type of behavior in the past.
Has Ortiz ever started a bench clearing brawl in his career? Was he suddenly going to beat this umpire to a pulp?
Would you be thinking this if Jorge Posada was involved in this incident and not David Ortiz?
I don't think Posada was going to cause harm to the umpire in his incident or that he spit intentionally
WebsterMulligan
07-17-04, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
Most of the time, Paulie took it out on Water Coolers, and didn't throw them at umpires
He sure knocked the crap out of many a water cooler :lol: . Paulie was mostly hard on himself, when he threw a tirade.
PippyPinstripes
07-17-04, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by NelsonMuntz
It's no big deal. Ortiz probably just wanted to be first in line at the post game buffet.
I hear they had tater tots that day!
PippyPinstripes
07-17-04, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
Red Sox notebook: Ortiz, wife welcome son D'Angelo
By Art Davidson, MetroWest Daily News
Sunday, July 11, 2004
BOSTON -- There was a good reason why David Ortiz wasn't in the Red Sox' revamped lineup last night.
Ortiz's wife, Tiffany, gave birth to the couple's first son, D'Angelo, yesterday afternoon. It was a long day for Ortiz, who arrived at Brigham and Women's Hospital at 7:30 a.m. Several hours later, his son was born, weighing 7 pounds, 1 ounce.
I don't know what that has to do with what I said. Little Jorge was in serious danger for a while :(
RhodeyYankee2638
07-17-04, 01:18 PM
Why must we make excuses for this guy. He was mad. He lost his cool. He tried to eat an umpire. Then he threw baseball bats in the direction of two people that had nothing to do with the horrible calling of the game. both sides were equally affected by crappy calling. If anyone should have been pissed, it was Pedro and Escobar, who were making good pitches and having them called balls........
Didn't Francona bump the ump?
MaineSoxFan
07-17-04, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by ACPS
Didn't Francona bump the ump?
I don't think it counts when you get pushed by someone else.
BruceCampbellKG7
07-17-04, 01:53 PM
it was funny
b-ball-lunachick
07-17-04, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by MaineSoxFan
I don't think it counts when you get pushed by someone else.
I wouldn't have thought so either but after reading the crew chief's comments in this article, I don't think his descriptions of the event bode too well for Ortiz...
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/07/17/ortiz_faces_fine_ban/
"The pitch wasn't that bad," he said. "The pitch was a strike. [Ortiz] was demonstrating with the waving of his arms and he was warned. And then he did it two more times after he was warned, and then there were curse words, I'm not going to tell you what they were."...
....Asked if there had been contact with Hollowell while Francona attempted to place himself between Ortiz and the umpire, Hohn said: "Absolutely. Not with David. David pushed Terry into Matt."
That is considered contact, Hohn said.
"I would think so, the way we saw it," Hohn said....
...."He throws his elbow pad back at us, that I did see," Hohn said, describing Ortiz's conduct while he was being kept away from the umpires by several Sox coaches. ....
"I did not see the bats come flying out," he said. "I turned to see whether Terry was in a calm argument, and the next thing I know, I could hear [the bats]. I didn't know they were coming until they hit the ground. Mark actually saw him pick the bats and throw them."
Hohn said the bats did not strike any umpires.
"They missed us by inches," he said.
For Ortiz's sake, I hope the apology from Lucchino helped out...I think this is the same guy that was pointing and yelling at Ortiz after bats landed and Ortiz was still yelling back...
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2004/07/17/1090083053_8229.jpg
Mandro Ramtinez
07-17-04, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
ugh, off topic the dreaded "Yankees Suck" loser chant just started loud and clear...do they know how dumb that sounds?
Surprisingly enough, the chant was actually started by Angel fans. Of course, a few drunk and frustrated Sox fans joined in, but Anaheim fans actually started it.
Anyone who thinks that (To quote John Kerry) Manny Ortez will be suspended for at least ten games is insane. Milton Bradley is the most comparable incident, and he was suspended for four games after appeal. Ortiz is looking at a five game suspension coupled with a hefty chunk of change.
That was possibly the worst umpiring job I have ever wtinessed, and sad thing is, it wasn't this guys first controversial game. Earlier this year he called a Cards/Reds game in which 21 walks were issued. There were many complaints after the game both sides. Hollowell (the ump) was called up from the AAA summer league to ump some major league games this year. He is not a major league quality umpire by any means.
Ortiz made a mistak, and the Sox need this guy in the line up, but he also apologized immediately following the game. No way does baseball have him miss the Sox/Yanks series. It just won't happen. My guess, he appeals, they hear it immediately following the Yanks series and give him 5 games and $$$. He starts serving it for the B'more series and finishes it out by missing a game or two in the Twins series, then comes back for the tail end of the Twins and is tehre for the D'rays series.
Mandro Ramtinez
07-17-04, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by PippyPinstripes
It was only semi-uncharacteristic, IMHO. He's definitely a little bit of a hothead, but IIRC, that incident happened when his little son's health was very unstable. I think that had a lot to do with it.
Oh so that's accetpable? Ok, well how about this, Ortiz's wife literally just gave birth to his first son, and he hasn't been able to see him. He must be stressed.
Mattpat11
07-17-04, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2004/07/17/1090083053_8229.jpg [/B]Does the sight of the ump screaming back irk anyone else?
You're not a part of the ****ing show. Do NOT scream back. Sit there with your ****ing mouth shut and if the situation gets out of hand, eject him.
No one came to see Matt Hollowell so don't make yourself a part of the game.
RhodeyYankee2638
07-17-04, 02:33 PM
Someone needs to get that picture and make a thread in the sports bar entitled "caption this" :lol: :lol:
I saw the replays and some of the game yesterday.
1. The umpiring was inconsistent all night for both side. Horrible.
2. The strike call that Ortiz lost it on was not exactly a bad call. It could be considered a strike, but I think he had frustrations that had built up from some other more horrendous calls the umpire made.
3. Ortiz's temperment is usually mild-mannered and this is not indicative of him being either a bully or disrespectful of his manager. He was just incredibly frustrated, and blew up.
4. He should never have thrown the bats. I do not believe that he meant to hit anybody, but that was taking it way too far. He was supposed to leave the dugout right away anyway. This is what will get him the suspension. This will cost him whether it was intentional or not.
What I find really funny/ironic is that several weeks ago, we had a thread here about the quality of the umpiring. I complained of 2 things - (1) the inconsistency of the strikezone within the game (2) the umpires & their egos where they are increasingly becoming a factor in the game.
My point had been that even though fans, since the begining of time, have complained about the umps, the quality of their work had gone down. Most Red Sox fans kept saying that they were not any worse, that the umpires have a 'tough' job, and that we should basically quit complaining. They argued that they were equally bad for everyone that so I should stop complaining. I find it funny that now that the shoe is in the other foot, they are singing the same song that we have been.
This has nothing to do with the Yankees or Red Sox or any specific team. Just because they are equally bad doesn't mean it's ok or that the bad calls "even out" somehow. They do not. Not all bad calls are equal... The QUALITY of the umpiring has decreased the last couple of seasons. I know it is a hard job. That is why they get paid a ton of money to do it. They better get it right the vast vast vast majority of the time. Umpires and their thin-skin, egos, belligerance, poor positioning, and horrendously inconsistent strike zones are becoming a huge factor in the game.
BTW, I said the same thing when Pudge got thrown out in the first inning against the Yankees for doing absolutely nothing.
Originally posted by Mattpat11
Does the sight of the ump screaming back irk anyone else?
You're not a part of the ****ing show. Do NOT scream back. Sit there with your ****ing mouth shut and if the situation gets out of hand, eject him.
No one came to see Matt Hollowell so don't make yourself a part of the game.
I can understand the umpire arguing back.. basically if someone is going after you (physically) it is easy to get worked up. I have more of a problem when the players turn away and are heading to the dugout and the umpires follow them back... that's instigating and a level of belligerance that was not in the game even a short 5 years ago.
ForceFive
07-17-04, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Alex
I can understand the umpire arguing back.. basically if someone is going after you (physically) it is easy to get worked up. I have more of a problem when the players turn away and are heading to the dugout and the umpires follow them back... that's instigating and a level of belligerance that was not in the game even a short 5 years ago.
Exactly how I feel. Umpires have the right to defend themselves if verbally assaulted, but to follow a player back to a dugout, or up the baseline or walk out to the mound as the pitcher has his back turned to the plate is umpires out of control.
Calvin and Hobbes
07-17-04, 03:16 PM
I definately think more than 5 will be issued, especially if they consider Ortiz pushing Francona into Hollowell "making contact with an ump," as well they should, because contact was made because of Ortiz.
Re: Posada backing down when Torre came out of the dugout, that is more of a reflection of Torre's personal relationship with Posada, a career Yankee. I wonder if it had been Sheffield would it have been so easy. That being said, from what I've heard, Francona hasn't exactly wowed the front office with his managerial work, and I think his inability to control the team may become an issue in the future. I never thought much of his managing in Philly, either.
I watched the game at a party, and it was called poorly, though not the worst I've ever seen. I was really drunk at the time, so I'm probably not the best judge. ;) However, that pitch was a strike, so it was a pretty peculiar pitch for Ortiz to elect to have a hissy-fit over.
to Cubswin, I don't think ESPN has an anti-Red Sox or anti-Yankee bias per se, they just have a LOT of wishy-washy analysts that follow the tide. Everybody was in love with the Red Sox before the season, but since that mess of a series they had against the Yankees, everybody's been really down on them.
I don't think there are "excuses" for people acting that way, but if you look at the big picture, especially with a guy who is usually so reasonable, like Ortiz, you might find a reason. I mean, its not like he did it for fun, he was pissed, and he's usually not that pissed, so something was up. In Milton Bradley's case, he's clearly completely bat**** insane.
Bottom line prediction: Eight games.
JeffWeaverFan
07-17-04, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Alex
I can understand the umpire arguing back.. basically if someone is going after you (physically) it is easy to get worked up. I have more of a problem when the players turn away and are heading to the dugout and the umpires follow them back... that's instigating and a level of belligerance that was not in the game even a short 5 years ago.
Beat me to it. I mean, they are humans and when someone is yelling that you are this and that you might yell back. I haven't seen this at all though, when is SportsCenter on next?
NelsonMuntz
07-17-04, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Alex
This has nothing to do with the Yankees or Red Sox or any specific team. Just because they are equally bad doesn't mean it's ok or that the bad calls "even out" somehow. They do not. Not all bad calls are equal... The QUALITY of the umpiring has decreased the last couple of seasons. I know it is a hard job. That is why they get paid a ton of money to do it. They better get it right the vast vast vast majority of the time. Umpires and their thin-skin, egos, belligerance, poor positioning, and horrendously inconsistent strike zones are becoming a huge factor in the game.
Good points, and I agree. It's to the point where I wish they would replace the home plate umpire with an electronic strike zone ala Questec.
cubswin
07-17-04, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Mattpat11
Does the sight of the ump screaming back irk anyone else?
You're not a part of the ****ing show. Do NOT scream back. Sit there with your ****ing mouth shut and if the situation gets out of hand, eject him.
No one came to see Matt Hollowell so don't make yourself a part of the game.
agreed 100% Hollowell at least wasn't the aggresor, as some umps seem to be, but I very much believe that was because he feared Ortiz (don't blame him, either)
cubswin
07-17-04, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
Beat me to it. I mean, they are humans and when someone is yelling that you are this and that you might yell back. I haven't seen this at all though, when is SportsCenter on next?
except that they have a job that is supposed to involve being objective, and if you are arguing with one side, regardless of provocation, that can cause lack of objectivity or perception of lack of objectivity. More importantly, perhaps, it aggravates a situation, which can hurt one of the teams.
BruceCampbellKG7
07-17-04, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
agreed 100% Hollowell at least wasn't the aggresor, as some umps seem to be, but I very much believe that was because he feared Ortiz (don't blame him, either)
I mean no umpire wants the league to think they can step all over him or anything
cubswin
07-17-04, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Alex
I ...
What I find really funny/ironic is that several weeks ago, we had a thread here about the quality of the umpiring. I complained of 2 things - (1) the inconsistency of the strikezone within the game (2) the umpires & their egos where they are increasingly becoming a factor in the game.
My point had been that even though fans, since the begining of time, have complained about the umps, the quality of their work had gone down. Most Red Sox fans kept saying that they were not any worse, that the umpires have a 'tough' job, and that we should basically quit complaining. They argued that they were equally bad for everyone that so I should stop complaining. I find it funny that now that the shoe is in the other foot, they are singing the same song that we have been...
I could be wrong, but I don't think most Sox fans were saying that. I thought the general theme was that the umps are indeed bad and getting worse, but that the people claiming that they were robbing the Yanks were wrong, b/c all teams get bad calls.
Originally posted by Mandro Ramtinez
Oh so that's accetpable? Ok, well how about this, Ortiz's wife literally just gave birth to his first son, and he hasn't been able to see him. He must be stressed.
You cannot in any terms compare the stress of having a child (even though you are not able to see it right away) to the stress of having a critically ill child. Posada's son had a brain operation......the two cannot be compared.
After reading the above article....I say a 7 game suspension.
Mattpat11
07-17-04, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
Beat me to it. I mean, they are humans and when someone is yelling that you are this and that you might yell back. But he's being paid NOT TO aggravate the situation, which is exactly what screaming at the man will do.
Carissa
07-17-04, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Mandro Ramtinez
Oh so that's accetpable? Ok, well how about this, Ortiz's wife literally just gave birth to his first son, and he hasn't been able to see him. He must be stressed. Do you have any idea what Posada's son has been through? Because from that post, it seems that you don't. It's a bit more than "not being able to see him".
Here's some more information on the condition that affects little Jorge: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and_medical/disorders/craniosytosis_doc.htm
Here are some old threads on Jorge IV from here. He's had two surgeries where they take his skull apart like a puzzle, lay it on the table and then have to put it back together again. After the second one, he had developed an infection, for which they had to do some more surgery. Hopefully, he has had his last one last spring but he will probably having more reconstructive surgery as he grows up.
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?postid=1028087#post1028087
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39401
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?postid=489696#post489696
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16944
flymick24
07-17-04, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by yanks
You cannot in any terms compare the stress of having a child (even though you are not able to see it right away) to the stress of having a critically ill child. Posada's son had a brain operation......the two cannot be compared.
After reading the above article....I say a 7 game suspension.
good post. plus, one needs to keep in mind that the spit from posada was, according to the video, unintentional (it came mid sentence, which indicates that he didn't do it on purpose.)
ortiz was pretty intentional in trying to get at that ump and throwing the bats.
7 games, perhaps? it's really a shame, because he's such a good guy.
MaineSoxFan
07-17-04, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by flymick24
good post. plus, one needs to keep in mind that the spit from posada was, according to the video, unintentional (it came mid sentence, which indicates that he didn't do it on purpose.)
ortiz was pretty intentional in trying to get at that ump and throwing the bats.
7 games, perhaps? it's really a shame, because he's such a good guy.
I'm going with 5 games because of the bats, as for getting at the ump I disagree with the poster who thought Ortiz was trying to punch him. He obviously could have if he wanted to, it was just Francona blocking him for a bit. That being said, he really lost it and the throwing of the bats was unacceptable.
Originally posted by Mattpat11
You're not a part of the ****ing show. Do NOT scream back. Sit there with your ****ing mouth shut and if the situation gets out of hand, eject him.
Just correcting the incident a bit - the screen shot was after Ortiz had been ejected.
stevethesoxfan
07-17-04, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by PippyPinstripes
I don't know what that has to do with what I said. Little Jorge was in serious danger for a while :(
I'm not saying Ortiz' baby was sick like Jorge's. But the point was brought up that Posada's baby's condition may have affected Jorge's temperment at the time. If we're to accept that as a valid reason, then:
Ortiz has never blown up like this before, not even close. And the first time it ever happens is while he is on a road trip away from his wife and six day old baby. That could cause stress too.
Ortiz doesn't deserve an excuse, but if Posada gets one then David should get equal treatment.
Originally posted by Mandro Ramtinez
Oh so that's accetpable? Ok, well how about this, Ortiz's wife literally just gave birth to his first son, and he hasn't been able to see him. He must be stressed.
Completely different situation. If you knew the circumstances, I imagine you too would agree. It doesn't excuse what Posada did by any means, but it is definately more of an explanation of why he was so on edge. His son was critically, critically ill. Only Joe and Jeter knew what was going on... the guy was on edge, running back and forth between the hospital and the Stadium, sleep-deprived and generally very very stressed out. His one and only child (at the time) was in very bad shape and he was keeping it bottled up. I know a bad call can be called stressful. So can the birth of your first child. But this was different. Nobody said it was an excuse, merely an explanation.
The spit was a result of him screaming his head off. Not even the umpire thought it was on purpose.
stevethesoxfan
07-17-04, 05:03 PM
delete
Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
I'm not saying Ortiz' baby was sick like Jorge's. But the point was brought up that Posada's baby's condition may have affected Jorge's temperment at the time. If we're to accept that as a valid reason, then:
Ortiz has never blown up like this before, not even close. And the first time it ever happens is while he is on a road trip away from his wife and six day old baby. That could cause stress too.
I'm sure that Ortiz is stressed out. He must want to see his child & that's understandable. The problem I had is that you were comparing one kind of stress to another... as in, if we accept one as an explanation, then there we should presume that Ortiz's explanation is equally valid. I just disagree... as I explained in my other post.
In addition, the league didn't care why Jorge was stressed out. The story about his kid didn't come out until after he had served his suspension. He didn't use it as an excuse and the league wouldn't have cared anyway, I think.
Mattpat11
07-17-04, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Alex
Just correcting the incident a bit - the screen shot was after Ortiz had been ejected. So he ejected the guy and then continued to fight with him?
So, in other words, because this man couldn't put his ego aside, he continued to incite a baseball player to the point where he ended up launching baseball bats across the field?
PS - an excuse and an explanation are not the same thing. Jorge never used it as an excuse. Neither will Ortiz.
Ortiz is a good guy and most of us here are saying so. He just lost his temper because of the bad umpiring. He just took it to another level with the bats unfortunately.
Originally posted by Mattpat11
So he ejected the guy and then continued to fight with him?
Did you actually see the incident? When he ejected Ortiz, Ortiz rushed him... was cursing at him and had to be held back... in fact Ortiz kept going after him... in that case, I don't blame the umpire for yelling back. I get mad at umps for starting things by instigating, but in this case, Ortiz was the one that did it.... in fact, he was so out of control that he threw the bats towards them.
Originally posted by Mattpat11
So, in other words, because this man couldn't put his ego aside, he continued to incite a baseball player to the point where he ended up launching baseball bats across the field?
I can't believe that you are actually saying that the ump made him do it... that's ridiculous. The confrontation was over... he had gone back to the dugout, the umps were standing on the field... Ortiz was supposed to leave the dugout, but he threw bats at the umps.
I can't believe you're saying that it's the umps fault in this instance. That's ridiculous.
JeffWeaverFan
07-17-04, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Mattpat11
But he's being paid NOT TO aggravate the situation, which is exactly what screaming at the man will do.
I have a problem with an umpire when he follows the player back to the dugout or something like that (like Angel Hernandez does). But in this instance, Ortiz completely blew up and was going after the umpire and I'm guessing he was saying some pretty bad things. You can't blame an umpire for yelling back. Also, for all you know, the ump was just saying to get off the field since he's been ejected.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-17-04, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Alex
I can't believe that you are actually saying that the ump made him do it... that's ridiculous. The confrontation was over... he had gone back to the dugout, the umps were standing on the field... Ortiz was supposed to leave the dugout, but he threw bats at the umps.
I can't believe you're saying that it's the umps fault in this instance. That's ridiculous.
Alex- given the way in which the ump seemed to jaw back, I would not be surprised at all to learn that he said something inappropriate to set Ortiz off even further. He was upset when he began, but as the jawing back and forth took place, he became even more agitated. This is something that we'll probably never know, but its simply a hunch.
Mattpat11
07-17-04, 05:36 PM
Did you actually see the incident? When he ejected Ortiz, Ortiz rushed him... was cursing at him and had to be held back... in fact Ortiz kept going after him...
And that stops him from trying to walk away...how?
He never even made an attempt to walk away from the mad man after Terry got between them. He just stood there screaming as loud as Ortiz.
The ump wanted a fight.
He got one.
And yes, if you want to say that Ortiz being right on top of him made it impossible for him to walk away, it still doesn't force him to make the situation worse by yelling back.
BruceCampbellKG7
07-17-04, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
Alex- given the way in which the ump seemed to jaw back, I would not be surprised at all to learn that he said something inappropriate to set Ortiz off even further. He was upset when he began, but as the jawing back and forth took place, he became even more agitated. This is something that we'll probably never know, but its simply a hunch.
That does not excuse throwing bats at people. Ortiz should have been more professional and took the high road
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
Alex- given the way in which the ump seemed to jaw back, I would not be surprised at all to learn that he said something inappropriate to set Ortiz off even further. He was upset when he began, but as the jawing back and forth took place, he became even more agitated. This is something that we'll probably never know, but its simply a hunch.
Maybe it was Ortiz cursing or saying something "inappropriate", maybe it was both... but the way Ortiz went after him, and he did go after him, I kinda don't blame the ump. It's more of a problem for me when the player is trying to avoid confrontation, and the umpire won't let it go. That pisses me off to no end.
Ortiz wasn't in his normal state of mind, that's for sure. I wouldn't be suprised if he was verbally abusive to the ump and the ump responded back.
Originally posted by Mattpat11
The ump wanted a fight.
He got one.
But what you were saying is that it's the umpires fault that Ortiz threw those bats... that the ump basically pushed him to it. I disagree.
The ump didn't pick a fight with him... Ortiz went nuts. The umpire didn't walk away, or shut up, but the bottom line is Ortiz started it, got ejected, continued it, and then continued it from the dugout.
WakefieldsKnuckler49
07-17-04, 06:04 PM
Did anyone else notice that Ortiz didn't completely blow his gasket until the umpire threw him out? Maybe it was a case of Ortiz not thinking he deserved to be tossed? We may never know, but I think this deserves 5-7 games, just because of the bat incident. That was taking it one step too far.
BTW, mad props to Terry for being able to hold that guy back. I'm actually starting to like Francona more as the season goes along.
cubswin
07-17-04, 06:48 PM
I've umpired and refereed in different sports before, and I would never get into it with a player -- and I'm a volunteer. The ump has no right, imo, to EVER partake in an argument with a player. I don't get the "defending himself from verbal abuse" notion -- how is yelling at somebody defending yourself? The ump should be above it.
And a minor suggestion re. Ortiz: I don't think he was throwing the bats at the umpires, meaning he was trying to hit them; I think he was throwing them toward them. Obviously I don't know, but it's just my take from watching it.
(And, of course, none of this excuses what Ortiz did.)
Originally posted by cubswin
I've umpired and refereed in different sports before, and I would never get into it with a player -- and I'm a volunteer. The ump has no right, imo, to EVER partake in an argument with a player. I don't get the "defending himself from verbal abuse" notion -- how is yelling at somebody defending yourself? The ump should be above it.
And a minor suggestion re. Ortiz: I don't think he was throwing the bats at the umpires, meaning he was trying to hit them; I think he was throwing them toward them. Obviously I don't know, but it's just my take from watching it.
(And, of course, none of this excuses what Ortiz did.)
I agree with you completely. Ideally, the umpire shouldn't have argued back. But he didn't start it... Ortiz had already blown up once he was tossed... I was just saying that I didn't believe the umpire started it, as in "looking for a fight... he got it". I think Ortiz is responsible for starting the whole thing.
But yes, I agree that although Ortiz threw the bats in their direction, he didn't mean to come near them. He was angry and wanted a parting shot expressing his anger, and just chose the wrong direction to throw them.
Mandro Ramtinez
07-17-04, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
I'm not saying Ortiz' baby was sick like Jorge's. But the point was brought up that Posada's baby's condition may have affected Jorge's temperment at the time. If we're to accept that as a valid reason, then:
Ortiz has never blown up like this before, not even close. And the first time it ever happens is while he is on a road trip away from his wife and six day old baby. That could cause stress too.
Ortiz doesn't deserve an excuse, but if Posada gets one then David should get equal treatment.
Exactly my point. Personally, Posada can complain about a call, as can Ortiz. Extenuating circumstances do not justify someone's actions. I wasn't comparing brain surgery to a newborn baby, and yes I know what happened with Jorge's kid, and it's extremely sad. I was just saying that neither that, nor Ortiz not seeing his child is an excuse to start flipping out.
Originally posted by cubswin
And a minor suggestion re. Ortiz: I don't think he was throwing the bats at the umpires, meaning he was trying to hit them; I think he was throwing them toward them. Obviously I don't know, but it's just my take from watching it.You mean ... like Clemens with the piece of Piazza's bat? ;)
expectTHEunexpected
07-17-04, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by -tz
You mean ... like Clemens with the piece of Piazza's bat? ;)
I will never understand why he did that.
Calvin and Hobbes
07-17-04, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by expectTHEunexpected
I will never understand why he did that.
I don't think he could tell you. "I thought it was the ball," was his explanation at the time, which later changed to "I just wanted to get it off the field." What he should have said was "I forgot I was on national television."
Originally posted by barrybaseball
I'm watching the Sox/Angels game...David Ortiz went BALLISTIC on a third strike call and looked like he was gonna pound the home plate ump into goo. It took just about every Sox coach to restrain him.
So he gets tossed, storms into the dugout, and then throws a couple of bats directly at two umpires standing on the field.
I'm sure I'll be called biased, but can you imagine a Yankee acting like this? With Torre? Not in a million years. They'd be traded.
Espinosa's Glasses
07-17-04, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Calvin and Hobbes
I don't think he could tell you. "I thought it was the ball," was his explanation at the time, which later changed to "I just wanted to get it off the field." What he should have said was "I forgot I was on national television."
or "for fun"
RhodeyYankee2638
07-17-04, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Serge
They'd be traded.
If it was a lesser guy like a Lofton or a Cairo, they would be traded or dropped. But if Giambi did something like that, I think he would have the common sense to make a full apology and immeadiatly take his suspension. Did Ortiz even apologize to the umps he threw the bats in the direction of?
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
If it was a lesser guy like a Lofton or a Cairo, they would be traded or dropped. But if Giambi did something like that, I think he would have the common sense to make a full apology and immeadiatly take his suspension. Did Ortiz even apologize to the umps he threw the bats in the direction of? Ortiz was quoted as saying ...
"I didn't mean to hit anybody. I just threw my bat over there," said Ortiz. "I made a mistake. We're human, dude. We're not perfect. It's over."
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/news/bos_news.jsp?ymd=20040717&content_id=801886&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp
A funny quote in another story on MLB.com ...
[Francona] did wake up sore after doing everything in his power to restrain the physically imposing Ortiz.
"My back hurts, my toe hurts, my knee hurts," Francona said. "That's a strong man." :lol:
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/news/bos_news.jsp?ymd=20040717&content_id=802402&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp
Jersey Yankee
07-18-04, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
While I won't call you biased, your comparison is completely unnecessary. And by the way, Francona did an excellent job of restraining Ortiz when he could have gotten himself in MUCH more trouble by bumping into the ump. I wouldn't necessarily say the comparison was unnecessary, since many of us haven't witnessed a Yankee doing anything like that. I'm not saying that Boston players would often do this either, but I'm surprised that it was Ortiz who'd done this.
Among the current players, he's one of my favorites, so I'm a bit sad over this.
RedGlare
07-18-04, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Jersey Yankee
I wouldn't necessarily say the comparison was unnecessary, since many of us haven't witnessed a Yankee doing anything like that. be ready for examples from yankees that have been retired or players that acted this way many years ago on different teams.
Jersey Yankee
07-18-04, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by RedGlare
be ready for examples from yankees that have been retired or players that acted this way many years ago on different teams. I've already seen the Posada example. From what I remember, that wasn't even done intentionally, but people are trying to make him out to be Robbie Alomar.
Anything to avoid criticism of a Red Sox player, I guess.
berriYankee
07-18-04, 03:22 AM
Milton Bradley got a six game suspension reduced to four games.
Therefore, I think that Ortiz will get a 8 game suspension and if he
appeals it will go down only two games to 6. I think he will pay a fine also.
I think as nutty as Bradley was doing what he did, Ortiz had no right
to throw bats out of the dugout, whether it be at the umpires or not.
It is not a sportsmenlike thing to do and he did not show a good example to the children who were at that game.....
I do not condone anyone who throws equipment on the field in a rage of anger. It is unsportsmenlike and unprofessional.
Just me thoughts and observations.
:o :o :o :o :o :cool: :cool: :cool:
Mayday Malone
07-18-04, 06:57 AM
The whole thing began with Tiz arguing a call. A few words were spoken by Ortiz, and the Ump should have walked away. He argued instead. That's one of the biggest mistakes one can make if they're ruling the outcome of a sporting event. IF he's going to call the game without prejudice, the way he determines balls and strikes should not come into question, let alone need to be defended in such an offensive manner. Why was he arguing back? Why was the Ump from the Everett situation arguing back? They're supposed to walk away. In regards to Tiz, does anyone know why the third base ump was on the first base side of the field when the bats were thrown? There was no play in progress, he should have been behind third, rather than instigating. Nice of him to throw his hands up in a "come and get me" manner after the bats were underhanded towards them. These are the kinds of games that make conspiracy theorists soak their panties, but it's more and more blatent as the years pass.
MaineSoxFan
07-18-04, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by Jersey Yankee
I've already seen the Posada example. From what I remember, that wasn't even done intentionally, but people are trying to make him out to be Robbie Alomar.
Anything to avoid criticism of a Red Sox player, I guess.
I definitely don't condone what Ortiz did, it was inexcusable. That being said, the idea that the Yankee would trade a player who did that is ludicrous. I don't think Posada spit on the ump intentionally, but he did bump him and then throw his equipment on the field (though not at the umpire), much like Ortiz that was a lapse of judgment and a team would be foolhardy to make a decision based on one action like that.
MaineSoxFan
07-18-04, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
If it was a lesser guy like a Lofton or a Cairo, they would be traded or dropped. But if Giambi did something like that, I think he would have the common sense to make a full apology and immeadiatly take his suspension. Did Ortiz even apologize to the umps he threw the bats in the direction of?
Ortiz and Lucchino both apologized:
After the game, Sox CEO Larry Lucchino went into the umpires' room and apologized. "That showed tremendous class by him and the Red Sox organization," Hohn said.
"Terry Francona also did an outstanding job stopping the situation at home plate."
Ortiz said he was "not the kind of guy to cause trouble. I did something wrong. I apologize to the fans and the umpires."
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/07/18/ortiz_awaits_word_on_fine_suspension/
RhodeyYankee2638
07-18-04, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by MaineSoxFan
Ortiz and Lucchino both apologized:
After the game, Sox CEO Larry Lucchino went into the umpires' room and apologized. "That showed tremendous class by him and the Red Sox organization," Hohn said.
"Terry Francona also did an outstanding job stopping the situation at home plate."
Ortiz said he was "not the kind of guy to cause trouble. I did something wrong. I apologize to the fans and the umpires."
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/07/18/ortiz_awaits_word_on_fine_suspension/
Thanks for the info. I had also seen it on the Pre Game report as well. Boy, how come they don't have Eckersly commenting the day after sometihng big goes down. I love that guys analysis
MaineSoxFan
07-18-04, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
Thanks for the info. I had also seen it on the Pre Game report as well. Boy, how come they don't have Eckersly commenting the day after sometihng big goes down. I love that guys analysis
I don't know, I can't stand Sam Horn. He adds nothing, IMO
From the story linked to above ...
[Ortiz:] "It's not like I tried to hit them. I'm just too strong, I guess. What I was trying to do was throw my bats and say, `Here, you hit.' " :lol:
Originally posted by Mayday Malone
The whole thing began with Tiz arguing a call. A few words were spoken by Ortiz, and the Ump should have walked away. He argued instead. That's one of the biggest mistakes one can make if they're ruling the outcome of a sporting event. IF he's going to call the game without prejudice, the way he determines balls and strikes should not come into question, let alone need to be defended in such an offensive manner. Why was he arguing back? Why was the Ump from the Everett situation arguing back? They're supposed to walk away. In regards to Tiz, does anyone know why the third base ump was on the first base side of the field when the bats were thrown? There was no play in progress, he should have been behind third, rather than instigating. Nice of him to throw his hands up in a "come and get me" manner after the bats were underhanded towards them. These are the kinds of games that make conspiracy theorists soak their panties, but it's more and more blatent as the years pass.
Wow. Now an ump can't even be talking to another ump about what happened... so because he was standing on the field, he was "instigating" Ortiz to throw bats towards them... yeah... right. Ortiz was supposed to leave the dugout anyway... play had not resumed, so how is is that it's the umps fault for still being on the playing field? :rolleyes:
Gimme a break!
Freeway96
07-18-04, 02:09 PM
so what's the latest? did the hammer drop yet? how many games?
YankeePride1967
07-18-04, 02:22 PM
The estimate I've been hearing is a 5-10 game suspension.
RedGlare
07-18-04, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket
The estimate I've been hearing is a 5-10 game suspension. 5 or 10... either way... bad for a team that is trying to win the wildcard
NDBoston
07-18-04, 03:35 PM
I heard 5 games this morning reduced to 3 on ESPN forgot the reporter.
Originally posted by NDBoston
I heard 5 games this morning reduced to 3 on ESPN forgot the reporter.
He'd have to appeal to get it reduced though, right? It's gotta count for something that he's never done anything like this before. Timing the appeal is a trick thing... he has to do it right away or it might somehow coincide with the Yankees series. If he starts serving right away, he can serve it before the Yankees series... but surely he'd appeal to try to get a reduction.
I don't think anything official has come out yet.
NDBoston
07-18-04, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Alex
He'd have to appeal to get it reduced though, right? It's gotta count for something that he's never done anything like this before. Timing the appeal is a trick thing... he has to do it right away or it might somehow coincide with the Yankees series. If he starts serving right away, he can serve it before the Yankees series... but surely he'd appeal to try to get a reduction.
I don't think anything official has come out yet.
sorry, that was the opinion given
YankeePride1967
07-18-04, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by NDBoston
I heard 5 games this morning reduced to 3 on ESPN forgot the reporter.
Given his history and I don't think he was throwing the bats "at" the umpires, I think 3-5 is fair. If he does it again though then closer to 10 would be appropriate.
cubswin
07-18-04, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Jersey Yankee
...Anything to avoid criticism of a Red Sox player, I guess.
except that not one Sox fan here (I don't think -- I don't feel like going back and reading the entire thread to be sure, though) has condoned what he did.
cubswin
07-18-04, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Mayday Malone
The whole thing began with Tiz arguing a call. A few words were spoken by Ortiz, and the Ump should have walked away. He argued instead. That's one of the biggest mistakes one can make if they're ruling the outcome of a sporting event. IF he's going to call the game without prejudice, the way he determines balls and strikes should not come into question, let alone need to be defended in such an offensive manner. Why was he arguing back? Why was the Ump from the Everett situation arguing back? They're supposed to walk away. In regards to Tiz, does anyone know why the third base ump was on the first base side of the field when the bats were thrown? There was no play in progress, he should have been behind third, rather than instigating. Nice of him to throw his hands up in a "come and get me" manner after the bats were underhanded towards them. These are the kinds of games that make conspiracy theorists soak their panties, but it's more and more blatent as the years pass.
As much as I dislike the umps, the home plate ump in this situation actually handled it all right at first, imo, although he did then get aggressive, which is wrong. I don't think the 3rd base ump in any way was "instigating." I think his hand gesture was basically saying "what the hell are you doing"? Not inviting a fight.
stevethesoxfan
07-18-04, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Jersey Yankee
I've already seen the Posada example. From what I remember, that wasn't even done intentionally, but people are trying to make him out to be Robbie Alomar.
Anything to avoid criticism of a Red Sox player, I guess.
You are wrong on both counts.
Reread the posts by longtime Sox fans. No Sox fan condoned what Ortiz did -- we just said it was uncharacteristic of him. Here you go -- I took the time to look these up for you, since you obviously didn't bother before accusing us:
Wakefield Crew Sox: "...the incident where Ortiz tossed the bats was completely unnecessary..."
Cubswin: "Regardless, Ortiz's actions were inexcusable, and I'm sure he realizes that now."
Me: "...a bonehead move to toss them..."
NDBoston: "I'm reallly upset that Ortiz blew up..."
Mandro Ramtinez: "Ortiz made a mistake"
Then, point two, Posada was brought up first by Freeway96, a YANKEE FAN. The second time that Posada was mentioned (with photos!!) was by Carissa, another YANKEE FAN. No Sox fan brought up Posada originally, and none of us addressed his situation until after TWO Yankee posters had brought him into the discussion.
ryanm1058123
07-18-04, 09:32 PM
Just a question: When do they usually announce suspensions, NOT pending appeals or anything? Doesn't it usually happen the day afterwards?
stevethesoxfan
07-18-04, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by ryanm1058123
Just a question: When do they usually announce suspensions, NOT pending appeals or anything? Doesn't it usually happen the day afterwards?
Not sure, but usually on the 2nd or 3rd weekday after the incident. They spend the first day reviewing it. I'm guessing they'll say something Mon or Tues, probably the latter.
Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
Not sure, but usually on the 2nd or 3rd weekday after the incident. They spend the first day reviewing it. I'm guessing they'll say something Mon or Tues, probably the latter.
Then Ortiz is lucky because if it doesn't come out until then, he can appeal the suspension and by the time they get a hearing date, the Yankees/Red Sox series will be over.
stevethesoxfan
07-18-04, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Alex
Then Ortiz is lucky because if it doesn't come out until then, he can appeal the suspension and by the time they get a hearing date, the Yankees/Red Sox series will be over.
As a Sox fan, I'm happy with that, but why do these things have to drag on for weeks??? Why can't they appeal it a day or two later?
I'll answer my own question: lawyers and agents.
http://www.deneroff.com/Commentary/2001/Shrek.jpg
"I will appeal the suspension."
EdmundDantes
07-19-04, 12:13 PM
I am firmly in the camp of Ortiz was stupid, and he deserves a suspension of somewhere in the 5-10 range.
However, why do Umps wait to eject guys when they are walking away towards the dugout. Even if the guy says something it's impossible for anyone to hear it. The guy isn't showing the ump up anymore because the only people that will know what was said are the Ump, the manager, and any other people within like 20 feet of them. At that point, the ump is just tossing the guy because he can toss the guy.
silverdsl
07-19-04, 12:21 PM
I think Ortiz definitely did a stupid thing but I don't think he's going to be suspended for more than 5 days max and that will probably be appealed down to 2-3. Milton Bradley, who has a history of misbehavior only got 6, appealed down to 4 for similar actions. Sammy Sosa had a corked bat and I think he even got less than 10 days suspension. So Ortiz probably won't end up missing that much time.
-Deborah
ForceFive
07-19-04, 12:45 PM
What is the latest on this? Has anything been said as to when the league's verdict may come down?
Byung-HyunKimCyYoung
07-19-04, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by ForceFive
What is the latest on this? Has anything been said as to when the league's verdict may come down?
MLB is supposed to rule on the case either Mon or Tues.
ForceFive
07-19-04, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Byung-HyunKimCyYoung
MLB is supposed to rule on the case either Mon or Tues.
Thanks. I'm guessing 10 games, 5 games after appeal. He plays in the Yanks series.
Originally posted by EdmundDantes
I am firmly in the camp of Ortiz was stupid, and he deserves a suspension of somewhere in the 5-10 range.
However, why do Umps wait to eject guys when they are walking away towards the dugout. Even if the guy says something it's impossible for anyone to hear it. The guy isn't showing the ump up anymore because the only people that will know what was said are the Ump, the manager, and any other people within like 20 feet of them. At that point, the ump is just tossing the guy because he can toss the guy.
Dunno if that was really the case in this situation. I don't think Ortiz was walking away. Besides, who in the world knows what players say as they're walking away...he sure wasn't going down quietly.
But I doubt that Ortiz will serve more than 4 days after appeal.
RedSoxThisYear
07-19-04, 03:02 PM
If it is 5 games and it gets announced today there is talk of having him serve it right away. With the DH on Thursday he could have it all served by Friday! Or he could chance an appeal and see if it gets lowered to 3 games!
Originally posted by RedSoxThisYear
If it is 5 games and it gets announced today there is talk of having him serve it right away. With the DH on Thursday he could have it all served by Friday! Or he could chance an appeal and see if it gets lowered to 3 games!
If it's 4 games or less, he may not want to appeal it in the event that he gets a quick hearing date. In other words, if it gets announced today, and he's supposed to serve 4 days, then he can serve it out and be back before the Yankees series. However, if it is more than 4/5 days, he should appeal it for 2 reason - (1) to be able to play the Yankees series pending appeal, (2) it will surely be reduced.
I think 5 games is a little lenient considering Bradley got 4 for throwing balls. Ortiz threw BATS that came inches from hitting the ump. Anybody remember how many games were doled out for that spitting incident way back when?
Originally posted by wabio
I think 5 games is a little lenient considering Bradley got 4 for throwing balls. Ortiz threw BATS that came inches from hitting the ump. Anybody remember how many games were doled out for that spitting incident way back when?
The Alomar spitting incident got between 5-7 games. That was on purpose too. Ortiz threw bats onto the field, but they actually didn't hit the umps. The only thing I can think of as "cotact" was when he pushed Francona. But I think Bradly got 4 games (he deserved more IMO) because he had a really bad history of abusive language and violent behavior towards umpires. Ortiz has none of that. I think it'll be 5 games, likely reduced.
b-ball-lunachick
07-20-04, 11:26 AM
Ortiz's comments lately about not killing anyone seem a bit strange...he may want to keep his mouth shout on that one...
I would think the suspension would definitely need to be announced by today, no? I think Ortiz is lucky it's Watson handing them out and not Robinson...as for this quote from Tito, he either doesn't have very good reads, or he's being naive:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/07/20/hes_the_man_again_in_left/
"Maybe they realize it was such a small mistake, they'll let it go," Francona deadpanned. "That's my initial read on it."
and apparently old Tito lost a toenail in restraining him - OUCH! :D
Francona estimated that he received at least 20 phone calls from friends who watched his attempts to restrain the linebacker-sized Ortiz after his ejection. He said he lost a toenail during his efforts.
coalcracker
07-20-04, 12:56 PM
5 games in the booth with Buck and McCarver - or sitting between Mike and the Mad Dog for a week.
WakefieldsCrewSox
07-20-04, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Alex
The Alomar spitting incident got between 5-7 games. That was on purpose too. Ortiz threw bats onto the field, but they actually didn't hit the umps. The only thing I can think of as "cotact" was when he pushed Francona. But I think Bradly got 4 games (he deserved more IMO) because he had a really bad history of abusive language and violent behavior towards umpires. Ortiz has none of that. I think it'll be 5 games, likely reduced.
I agree with this read Alex. I hope you are right. The Sox have found plenty of ways to lose lately without missing one of their best hitters.
Arod for President
07-20-04, 01:45 PM
Ortiz is a horse ready to explode
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