Just for fun...the all time all star team [Archive]

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BruceCampbellKG7

07-07-04, 02:22 PM

This, in my opinion, is the greatest starting lineup and closers in baseball history...i'm not making a batting order, just who would play where

LF - Barry Bonds
CF - Willie Mays
RF - Babe Ruth
3B - Alex Rodriguez
SS - Ozzie Smith
2B - Jackie Robinson
1B - Lou Gehrig
C - Ivan Rodriguez
SP - Walter Johnson
CP - Mariano Rivera
CP - Eric Gagne
CP - Dennis Eckersley
CP - Bruce Sutter

thoughts?

expectTHEunexpected

07-07-04, 03:50 PM

How about Schmidt on 3B instead?

Rocketman

07-07-04, 06:12 PM

Some of these stray from what Bill James wrote in his Historical Baseball Abstract, but not by much - I place more credence on peak seasons than on longevity. In parentheses is my backup.

C- Bench (Berra)
1B- Gehrig (Foxx)
2B- Hornsby (Morgan)
3B- Schmidt (Brett)
SS- Rodriguez (Wagner)
LF- Bonds (Williams)
CF- Mantle (Mays)
RF- Ruth (Aaron)

SP- Johnson (Grove, Clemens, Koufax, Young)
RP- Rivera

Nome

07-07-04, 06:52 PM

Rocketman is closest to the correct roster.

There is no way that Rodriguiz should be considered for 3B.

You have to have Pete Rose on the team as a utility man and Wade Boggs as a third, third baseban

Andy

stevethesoxfan

07-07-04, 08:04 PM

I'll give you a 25 man team

SP - Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Roger Clemens, Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn
RP - Mariano Rivera, Rollie Fingers, Hoyt Wilhelm, Dennis Eckersley, Rich Gossage

C - Johnny Bench
1B -Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Honus Wagner
3B - Mike Schmidt
LF- Barry Bonds
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Babe Ruth
DH - Ted Williams

Bench - Ty Cobb (OF), Hank Aaron (OF), Joe Morgan (2B-SS), Jimmy Foxx (1B), Mickey Cochrane (C), Eddie Mathews (3B)

I know many will disagree, but I would start Aaron over Bonds if we could play around with their positions a little. But since Aaron was a RF (and can't beat out Ruth IMO), Bonds starts at his natural LF spot.

If we are including Negro Leaguers, I start Josh Gibson at C over Bench and in turn this knocks Cochrane off the team. Satchel Paige kicks Clemens off.

RhodeyYankee2638

07-07-04, 08:09 PM

Steve got it down, although if we were going to make a lineup per say, I would have to include Ricky Henderson to leadoff, cause you can't have Willie Mays batting 1st on the team.

stevethesoxfan

07-07-04, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
Steve got it down, although if we were going to make a lineup per say, I would have to include Ricky Henderson to leadoff, cause you can't have Willie Mays batting 1st on the team.

What, you got a problem with a guy with 660 HR leading off? :lol:

OK, we'll make him bunt a lot. It won't matter what he does because there are about 3000 HR hitting behind him. :eek:

ForceFive

07-07-04, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
I'll give you a 25 man team

SP - Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Roger Clemens, Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn
RP - Mariano Rivera, Rollie Fingers, Hoyt Wilhelm, Dennis Eckersley, Rich Gossage

C - Johnny Bench
1B -Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Honus Wagner
3B - Mike Schmidt
LF- Barry Bonds
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Babe Ruth
DH - Ted Williams

Steve, GMTA. ;) That is EXACTLY my team, except I'd have to get Lefty Grove in the rotation somewhere. But who to leave off? I might have to replace Spahn with Grove.

My batting order:
LF Bonds
DH Williams
RF Ruth
1B Gehrig
CF Mays
2B Hornsby
3B Schmidt
C Bench
SS Wagner

stevethesoxfan

07-07-04, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by ForceFive

Steve, GMTA. ;) That is EXACTLY my team, except I'd have to get Lefty Grove in the rotation somewhere. But who to leave off? I might have to replace Spahn with Grove.

My batting order:
LF Bonds
DH Williams
RF Ruth
1B Gehrig
CF Mays
2B Hornsby
3B Schmidt
C Bench
SS Wagner

Imagine if this team actually played: "Oops, this just in. Gehrig's ankle is still bothering him. So he's going to sit out tonight, replaced by Foxx at first base. :eek: And since Ruth had to pitch in last night's 18 inning game, he's going to rest today, replaced by Aaron in right. :eek: "

:lol: :lol: :lol:

ForceFive

07-07-04, 09:15 PM

BTW... I'd have Berra on the bench as the 2nd catcher instead of Cochrane. But that is splitting hairs, lol

WebsterMulligan

07-07-04, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by stevethesoxfan

SP - Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Roger Clemens, Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn
RP - Mariano Rivera, Rollie Fingers, Hoyt Wilhelm, Dennis Eckersley, Rich Gossage

C - Johnny Bench
1B -Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Honus Wagner
3B - Mike Schmidt
LF- Barry Bonds
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Babe Ruth
DH - Ted Williams

I like your team, stevethesoxfan, but I would replace Warren Spahn with Sandy Koufax in the rotation. I'd also rather have Pudge as the Catcher as well as A-Rod at SS.

ForceFive

07-07-04, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan

I like your team, stevethesoxfan, but I would replace Warren Spahn with Sandy Koufax in the rotation. I'd also rather have Pudge as the Catcher as well as A-Rod at SS.

Spahn/Koufax is interesting. They are a study in contrasts. Spahn is the epitome of great longevity, while Koufax is the epitome of peak performance.

IMO, Grove is the best of both worlds; had a great, long career, and dominated in his peak during one of the greatest periods for hitters in the history of the game (mid 30's). Grove had 300 wins (a .680 W%) and a 148 career ERA+ over 17 years. 9 ERA titles. 7 K titles. The guy was unbelievable.

ForceFive

07-07-04, 09:49 PM

Interesting ERA+/IP numbers:

Pitcher ERA+ IP
Grove 148 3940.7
W.Johnson 146 5914.7
Koufax 131 2324.3
P.Martinez 174 2079.0
Spahn 118 5243.7
Clemens 140 4278.7
Mathewson 135 4780.7
Gibson 127 3884.3
C.Young 138 7354.7

Couple things pop out. Cy Young's IP... DAMN! It was a different game back then though... the game changed quickly even between Young and Mathewson's careers, which weren't that far off from one another. Also, Pedro's ERA+ is just sick. However, he's pitched so fewer innings than everyone else, that has got to be taken into consideration. To me, longevity is important. That's why I take Johnson and Grove as the two greatest because of their combination of both peak and career.

stevethesoxfan

07-07-04, 09:59 PM

This is fun, but it's kind of hard to make a wrong choice. You could name 20 or 30 other players who wouldn't bring shame to this team. I mean, if you swapped in Frank Robinson, Tris Speaker and Stan Musial for the OF, how bad would they suck? :lol:

WebsterMulligan

07-07-04, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by ForceFive
Interesting ERA+/IP numbers:

Pitcher ERA+ IP
Grove 148 3940.7
W.Johnson 146 5914.7
Koufax 131 2324.3
P.Martinez 174 2079.0
Spahn 118 5243.7
Clemens 140 4278.7
Mathewson 135 4780.7
Gibson 127 3884.3
C.Young 138 7354.7

Couple things pop out. Cy Young's IP... DAMN! It was a different game back then though... the game changed quickly even between Young and Mathewson's careers, which weren't that far off from one another. Also, Pedro's ERA+ is just sick. However, he's pitched so fewer innings than everyone else, that has got to be taken into consideration. To me, longevity is important. That's why I take Johnson and Grove as the two greatest because of their combination of both peak and career.

I cannot argue with that ForceFive. Anyone you pick out of those choices is a winner. Cy Young's IP is definitely astounding. I read somewhere that he rarely threw the ball in spring training and he only warmed up 3 minutes before each start.

RhodeyYankee2638

07-07-04, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by WebsterMulligan

I cannot argue with that ForceFive. Anyone you pick out of those choices is a winner. Cy Young's IP is definitely astounding. I read somewhere that he rarely threw the ball in spring training and he only warmed up 3 minutes before each start.

If anyone ever remotely approached 7,000 IP, or maybe 5,500, we would never hear the end of it, even if it was Heathcliffe Sloucoumb. I wish we had some idea of how hard he threw. Any idea what pitches he threw?

stevethesoxfan

07-07-04, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638

If anyone ever remotely approached 7,000 IP, or maybe 5,500, we would never hear the end of it, even if it was Heathcliffe Sloucoumb. I wish we had some idea of how hard he threw. Any idea what pitches he threw?

Quotes from his official website:

"he was nicknamed Cy, as in Cyclone, because of his blinding fastball."

"Having learned accuracy in the delivery of the ball, the next thing is to master the curves. Some may have thought it was essential to know how to curve a ball before anything else. Experience, to my mind, teaches to the contrary. Any young player who has good control will become a successful curve pitcher long before the pitcher who is endeavoring to master both curves and control at the same time. The curve is merely an accessory to control. Witness how many good pitchers there were before the curved ball was heard of and how many there are now who employ straight balls as much as curves in their work."

"All us Youngs could throw, I use to kill squirrels with a stone when I was a kid, and my granddad once killed a turkey buzzard on the fly with a rock."

http://www.cmgww.com/baseball/young/home.html

Irony Of It All

07-07-04, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638

If anyone ever remotely approached 7,000 IP, or maybe 5,500, we would never hear the end of it, even if it was Heathcliffe Sloucoumb. I wish we had some idea of how hard he threw. Any idea what pitches he threw?

1. Jump Ball (Fastball)
2. Curves
3. Change
4. Spitball (occasional)

"It always depended on the batter. If a righthanded crowded my plate [Young always called the plate 'his'], I side-armed him with a curve, and then, when he stepped back, I'd throw an overhand fast ball low and outside. I was fortunate in having good speed from overhand, three-quarter or side-arm. I had a variety of curves-threw so-called screwball or indrop, too-and I used whatever delivery seemed best. And I never had but one sore arm. That was in 1911, my last, and the sore arm forced me to quit."
SOURCE: How to Play Winning Baseball (Arthur Mann, 1953)

From the "NEYER/JAMES GUIDE TO PITCHERS"

hellonewman

07-08-04, 01:09 AM

OK, I'll play.

C Bench
1B Gehrig
2B Hornsby
SS Wagner
3B Schmidt
LF Bonds
CF Cobb
RF Ruth
DH Williams (Ted, not Bernie;) )
LHP Grove
RHP Johnson
RP Rivera

Mgr. McCarthy
GM Rickey

Rocketman

07-08-04, 07:36 AM

ARod has to go first at shortstop. It just has to happen - there's no question in my mind that he's the best shortstop of all time given his power, defense, and average - not to mention baserunning ability and the ability to remain healthy (whatever that means).

I chose Mantle over Cobb because of power and I chose Mantle over Mays because of his peak seasons - Mantle at his best was about as good as anyone, ever.

As for the pitchers, Walter Johnson HAS to go first and Lefty Grove has to be right behind him. Those are your two best pitchers, bar none. Afterwards you have a series of choices. I prefer to NOT pick pitchers from the dead-ball era because their numbers look incredibly good in retrospect - too good, even. Christy Mathewson was a great pitcher, no question about it, but Clemens has been perhaps greater in tougher competition. Clemens HAS to be in the rotation.

Koufax vs. Spahn is a tough choice, but I took Koufax for his dominance. Either one is great, though.

Cy Young should make the team for having the most wins and also being dominant forever. He was clearly the best pitcher of his era.

Ted Williams would obviously be the perfect DH.

Contrary to popular opinion, Kevin Maas will not be hitting cleanup on this team.

stevethesoxfan

07-08-04, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Rocketman
ARod has to go first at shortstop. It just has to happen - there's no question in my mind that he's the best shortstop of all time given his power, defense, and average - not to mention baserunning ability and the ability to remain healthy (whatever that means).

I think ARod is great, but it is very premature to say he is the best SS of all-time. Honus Wagner's exploits are pretty much forgotten these days.

Some Wagner highlights:

"Acknowledging that there may have been one or two whose talents were greater, there is no one who has ever played the game that I would be more anxious to have on a baseball team." - Bill James

Branch Rickey, in his old age, called Wagner the greatest player he had ever seen, better than Ruth, Cobb, Williams, DiMaggio, etc. "One reason for Rickey's pronouncement was the bowlegged, barrel-chested, long-limbed Wagner's skill at shortstop, where he was often likened to an octopus. When he fielded grounders, his huge hands also collected large scoops of infield dirt, which accompanied his throws to first like the tail of a comet. It was said that Wagner threw out runners lying on his back. In one instance, he was caught with his glove hand in his back pocket reaching for a tobacco chaw, so he fielded a sharp grounder in his bare throwing hand and calmly threw the runner out, literally, with one hand behind his back." John McGraw said of him: "I name (Honus) Wagner first on my list, not only because he was a great batting champion and base-runner, and also baseball's foremost shortstop - but because Honus could have been first at any other position, with the possible exception of pitcher. In all my career, I never saw such a versatile player."

Wagner was one of the initial 5 members of the Hall of Fame.He led the league in hitting eight times, in steals five times, and in slugging average six times. He hit over .300 17 times and would eventually play every position except catcher. During an era when 2-1, 3-1 and 3-2 games were the norm, Wagner knocked in at least 100 runs nine times, winning the RBI title in four seasons. Three times in his career Wagner stole second, third, and home in the same inning. At the time of his retirement, Wagner had more hits, runs, RBI, doubles, triples, games, and steals than any other National League player.

LoneRedSeat

07-08-04, 10:09 AM

Wonderful thread. Great posts, all.

On Cy Young from the Sporting News' History of the Red Sox (which I don't have in front of me, so I'll relay from memory): Cy still had a great arm when he was pitching in his last year at age 44. The reason he retired is because he had grown rather portly. Batters started laying down bunts against him, and getting base hits because he was to slow to field them!

ForceFive

07-08-04, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
This is fun, but it's kind of hard to make a wrong choice. You could name 20 or 30 other players who wouldn't bring shame to this team. I mean, if you swapped in Frank Robinson, Tris Speaker and Stan Musial for the OF, how bad would they suck? :lol:

Man, tough squad if Musial, F. Robinson, Speaker, Banks, Mantle, DiMaggio, Seaver, GC Alexander, Bob Gibson, Whitey Ford, Carl Hubbell, Rickey Henderson, Hank Greenberg and Roy Campanella can't even make the cut!

SanFrANSKY

07-08-04, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by stevethesoxfan

I think ARod is great, but it is very premature to say he is the best SS of all-time. Honus Wagner's exploits are pretty much forgotten these days.

Steve, I agree with your entire post. The fact that none of us ever saw him play is probably why people choose A-Rod over The Flying Dutchman. In my mind, 21 seasons of top-shelf baseball along with his versatility more than make up for the admittedly much-smaller number of home runs.

However, in fairness let's see A-Rod play until he's 43 years old before we give it to H-Wag. :D

los

07-08-04, 01:10 PM

may not be the best, but this is my personall all time team.

1B - Gherig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - George Brett (I personally think Brett is better then Schmidt)
SS - Luke Appling
C - Johnny Bench
LF - Cobb
CF - Mays
RF - Ruth
DH - Hank Aaron

Bench - Berra, Musial, Aaron, Wagner, williams, Joey D, Barry Bonds, Frank Robinson.

SP1 - Bob Gibson
SP2 - Cy Young
SP3 - Walter Johnson
SP4 - Satchel Paige

SetupMan - Eck
Closer - Sand Man

chanman7483

07-08-04, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman
I place more credence on peak seasons than on longevity.

4 words for you

Brady Anderson circa 1996

50 Hrs, OPS of 1.034

RhodeyYankee2638

07-08-04, 02:23 PM

This would be mine, don't chew me out if I leave out a few obvious choices

C- Josh Gibson
1st- Lou Gehrig
2nd- Jackie Robinson
3rd- George Brett
SS- A-Rod
RF- Babe Ruth
CF- Ken Griffey Jr.
LF- Barry Bonds
DH- Hank Aaron

Rotation
1) Sandy Koufax
2) Randy Johnson
3) Bob Gibson
4) Christy Matthewson
5) Whitey Ford

Relief- Hoyt Willhelm, Goose Gossage, Eck
Closer- Mariano Rivera

rdsxntnnh

07-08-04, 02:28 PM

Nice post. I agree with most picks listed to date, with one exception.

I would take '99 Pedro over any pitcher ever, he was just filthy.

RhodeyYankee2638

07-08-04, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by rdsxntnnh
Nice post. I agree with most picks listed to date, with one exception.

I would take '99 Pedro over any pitcher ever, he was just filthy.

Who didn't see this one coming

chanman7483

07-08-04, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by rdsxntnnh
Nice post. I agree with most picks listed to date, with one exception.

I would take '99 Pedro over any pitcher ever, he was just filthy.

I agree with this guy I have to admit.

I never saw anyone better than him in my 10 years of baseball... who could spot 98 mph fastballs whereever/ whenever in addition to a NASTY curve and a changeup w/ the same motion as his fastball? Combine that w/ a screwball like two seamer and a mean streak and you have one hell of a pitcher.

ForceFive

07-08-04, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638

Who didn't see this one coming

:lol: I think most of us would agree that Pedro had one of, if not the greatest peak ever in the history of starting pitchers. But to me, it's gotta be more than that. To be great for a long period of time has a tremendous amount of merit.

If it were all about peak value, Ralph Kiner would have an argument to make this team, and Don Mattingly would be in the HOF.

RhodeyYankee2638

07-08-04, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by chanman7483

I agree with this guy I have to admit.

I never saw anyone better than him in my 10 years of baseball... who could spot 98 mph fastballs whereever/ whenever in addition to a NASTY curve and a changeup w/ the same motion as his fastball? Combine that w/ a screwball like two seamer and a mean streak and you have one hell of a pitcher.

I agree, it was a nasty season, but we are doing an all time list, not a single season list. If we were to do single season pitching, I would go with 99 Pedro, 78 guidry etc. But Pedro over Mathewson, Young, W. Johnson, Gibson, Koufax, I dont think so

chanman7483

07-08-04, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638

I agree, it was a nasty season, but we are doing an all time list, not a single season list. If we were to do single season pitching, I would go with 99 Pedro, 78 guidry etc. But Pedro over Mathewson, Young, W. Johnson, Gibson, Koufax, I dont think so

Hard to compare eras...

based on what we've seen from an overall seasonal standpoint, could it be said that pitchers these days have it tougher w/ the batters are stronger/ faster? Take a look at the runs per game... the HR #'s... etc

rdsxntnnh

07-08-04, 02:50 PM

Re: Pedro '99

He was the most dominant pitcher that year I've ever seen.
.852 win pct
13.21 k's per 9
2.07 ERA
.205 Avg against
.288 OBP

All Against the Juiced ball era.

He was Marino Rivera as a starter for the whole season.

1st- Gehrig
2nd- Pokey ;-)
SS- Arod
3rd- Rolen(may get ripped for this)
LF-Bonds
CF-Mays
RF-Babe
DH-Ted Williams

SP- Pedro '99
SP- Sandy Koufax
SP- Randy Johnson
SP- Bob Gibson
SP- Cy Young

CP-In his prime Rivera*
RP-ECk, Goose, Gagne*

* either one is going to get a W.

(maybe I misunderstood but I figured if we were picking the greatest line-up of all time we could pick players based on prime's, would be fun to do a one year line-up like this wouldn't it? Just one year performances...)

hellonewman

07-08-04, 03:51 PM

Yankees Empire

07-08-04, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by rdsxntnnh
Re: Pedro '99

He was the most dominant pitcher that year I've ever seen.
.852 win pct
13.21 k's per 9
2.07 ERA
.205 Avg against
.288 OBP

All Against the Juiced ball era.

He was Marino Rivera as a starter for the whole season.

1st- Gehrig
2nd- Pokey ;-)
SS- Arod
3rd- Rolen(may get ripped for this)
LF-Bonds
CF-Mays
RF-Babe
DH-Ted Williams

SP- Pedro '99
SP- Sandy Koufax
SP- Randy Johnson
SP- Bob Gibson
SP- Cy Young

CP-In his prime Rivera*
RP-ECk, Goose, Gagne*

* either one is going to get a W.

(maybe I misunderstood but I figured if we were picking the greatest line-up of all time we could pick players based on prime's, would be fun to do a one year line-up like this wouldn't it? Just one year performances...)

SCOTT ROLEN!?!?!?!? How utterly premature.

My team-

C- Roy Campanella
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Rogers Hornsby
3B- Mike Schmidt
SS- Honus Wagner (though A-Rod is gaining!)
LF- Ted Williams
CF- Mickey Mantle
RF- Babe Ruth

SP- Lefty Grove (the best pitcher EVER)
SP- Roger Clemens
SP- Bob Gibson
SP- Walter Johnson
SP- Sandy Koufax

No Pedro. Peak performance refers to highest maintained level of excellence, not the best single season, though he's close.

RP- Mariano Rivera
RP- Dennis Eckersley
RP- Rich Gossage
RP- Bruce Sutter
RP- Lee Smith

Eric Gagne will be in this bullpen if he keeps it up for a few more years.

Bench:

C- Johnny Bench
1B- Jimmie Foxx
2B- Joe Morgan
SS/3B- Ernie Banks
OF- Barry Bonds
OF- Ty Cobb
OF- Willie Mays

I figure with this team most games would be over by the 2nd inning.

Brushback45

07-08-04, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by rdsxntnnh

He was the most dominant pitcher that year I've ever seen.

.852 win pct
13.21 k's per 9
2.07 ERA
.205 Avg against
.288 OBP

That isn't a bad choice, but I'd rather have Pedro of 2000.

285 ERA+
1.74 ERA
0.74 WHIP
11.78 K/9
.167 BAA
.213 OBA
7.22 BR/9

You're looking at some major league records in that bunch where as in 1999, the strikeouts were coming at a phenomenal rate esp. for the AL, but he was a more dominant and refined pitcher in 2000, and the K's per 9 isn't too shabby that season either.

If the Red Sox scored Martinez the same amount of runs per game in 2000 as they did in 1999 when he went 23-4, he would'nt have lost a single game. He shouldn't have lost a single game. Tell me which of these six outings he deserved to take the loss in:

05/06/00: 9.0 IP, 6 H, 1 ER, 1 BB, 17 K
05/23/00: 8.0 IP, 7 H, 3 ER, 3 BB, 7 K
06/20/00: 8.0 IP, 5 H, 3 ER, 1 BB, 9 K
08/08/00: 8.0 IP, 3 H, 2 ER, 0 BB, 9 K
09/09/00: 7.0 IP, 4 H, 3 ER, 2 BB, 9 K
09/20/00: 8.0 IP, 5 H, 1 ER, 1 BB, 9 K

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638

But Pedro over Mathewson, Young, W. Johnson, Gibson, Koufax, I dont think so

Why not?

We are naming Closers and Reliever's to our all-time teams, so why not take Pedro?

Through 2003, Pedro had better numbers than Sandy Koufax in just about every category. For all the big games Koufax won throughout his career, he had the opportunity to pitch them while he was in the prime of his career. Pedro wasn't that lucky. In the postseason games he did start in the bright spot of his career, the result was a 1.13 ERA and a nice 17 scoreless inning streak in 1999. Let's not forget Koufax had the advantage of Dodger Stadium compared to Fenway Park, a higher mound, larger ballparks around MLB in general and '60s NL hitters compared to '90s AL hitters.

Unless Complete Games have suddenly become the most important statistic, it is pretty undeniable. And since we are naming closers, I don't see how they would be in this case.

Pedro

Year ERA AVG DIFF ERA+ RSAA K/BB K/9

1997 1.90 4.21 2.47 221 65 4.55 11.37
1998 2.89 4.53 1.64 160 48 3.75 9.67
1999 2.07 4.87 2.80 245 71 8.45 13.20
2000 1.74 4.92 3.18 285 77 8.88 11.78

Overall 2.15 4.63 2.48 228 261 5.68 11.46

Koufax

Year ERA AVG DIFF ERA+ RSAA K/BB K/9

1963 1.88 3.29 1.41 161 40 5.28 8.86
1964 1.74 3.54 1.80 187 35 4.20 9.00
1965 2.04 3.54 1.50 160 40 5.38 10.24
1966 1.73 3.61 1.88 190 58 4.12 8.83

Overall 1.86 3.49 1.63 175 173 4.74 9.26

At his very best, Koufax was 90% more effective than the average pitcher in the league. Pedro was 185% more effective than the average pitcher when he was at his best. Pedro's career average (ERA+) is only 16 points lower than Koufax's peak single-season. They've also thrown similar amount of innings during their careers in a similar amount of starts. Over the prime stretch of their careers, Martinez had 228 runs saved against average compared to the 173 RSAA by Koufax. Martinez is obviously hurt by his AL adjustment season in 1998, another disadvantage that Koufax didn't have although you could probably blame the 2.89 ERA on the stomach flu when he lost a bunch of weight and had four consecutive awful outings.

RSAA--Runs saved against average. It's the amount of runs that a pitcher saved vs. what an average pitcher would have allowed.

As for my own team all-time team...

C - Johnny Bench
1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Alex Rodriguez
3B - Mike Schmidt
OF - Barry Bonds
OF - Willie Mays
OF - Babe Ruth
DH - Ted Williams

SP - Lefty Grove
SP - Walter Johnson
SP - Christy Mathewson
SP - Roger Clemens
SP - Pedro Martinez

CP - Mariano Rivera
RP - Dennis Eckersly
RP - Eric Gagne
RP - Hoyt Wilhelm

Little Big Sheff

07-08-04, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by ForceFive

Spahn/Koufax is interesting. They are a study in contrasts. Spahn is the epitome of great longevity, while Koufax is the epitome of peak performance.

IMO, Grove is the best of both worlds; had a great, long career, and dominated in his peak during one of the greatest periods for hitters in the history of the game (mid 30's). Grove had 300 wins (a .680 W%) and a 148 career ERA+ over 17 years. 9 ERA titles. 7 K titles. The guy was unbelievable.

Don't forget to include Gibson as a long man / spot starter
Bob HAS to play for this team in the playoffs : Gibson for eight and then Mariano.
OUCH !!

RhodeyYankee2638

07-08-04, 05:25 PM

I cant believe many people left Hoyt Willhelm off of their relief pitchers list. He is probably the greatest reliever ever, better than even Mo

Little Big Sheff

07-08-04, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Brushback45

That isn't a bad choice, but I'd rather have Pedro of 2000.

[...]

Great great post.
Pedro 99-00 is the filthiest thing I have seen in my baseball fan life.

These 6 innings against Cleveland in 99 were one of the most incredible postseason performance I've seen.

btw, this thread is really cool.

Brushback45

07-08-04, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
I cant believe many people left Hoyt Willhelm off of their relief pitchers list. He is probably the greatest reliever ever, better than even Mo

Holy crap, how could I forget!

Just added him, had to replace Goose.

Little Sheff, the six hitless innings against Cleveland was great, but I think I enjoyed the 7 scoreless with 12 K's against the Yankees in the ALCS that followed that series against the Indians a little more.

los

07-08-04, 11:15 PM

i'm sorry but I'd take Bob gibson over pedro 6 days out of the week, and i'll throw in a sunday for just 6 innings.

with all these stats being thrown around, i would of wished Satchel Paige could of played in his prime in the Majors, i think he would of been the most dominant pitcher of all-time.

I forgot to add josh gibson, grandfather told me many stories of him and roy campy.

Brushback45

07-08-04, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by los
i'm sorry but I'd take Bob gibson over pedro 6 days out of the week, and i'll throw in a sunday for just 6 innings.

Why single out Pedro?

What kind of response was that?

And who even compared the two that prompted you to make such a smartass post?

los

07-09-04, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Brushback45

Why single out Pedro?

What kind of response was that?

And who even compared the two that prompted you to make such a smartass post?

1. Because I can

2. Showing how Pedro shouldnt be no where mentioned as the best all time pitchers, becaus he's not.

3. I dont know which prompted me first, but my point was clear. When Pedro can win a big game in the playoffs, then mention him with the all-time greats.

Brushback45

07-09-04, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by los
1. Because I can

2. Showing how Pedro shouldnt be no where mentioned as the best all time pitchers, becaus he's not.

3. I dont know which prompted me first, but my point was clear. When Pedro can win a big game in the playoffs, then mention him with the all-time greats.

1.) Okay....

2.) Yeah, you really showed a lot of facts. :lol:

3.) How do you define a "Big Game"?

Game 5 of the ALDS in 1999 wasn't a big game? It was decisive.
Game 5 of the ALDS in 2003 wasn't a big game? It was decisive.
Game 3 of the ALCS in 1999 wasn't a big game? His team was down 2-0 going in.

Pedro has pitched better in the postseason than both Maddux and Clemens. I suppose they aren't all-time greats.

los

07-09-04, 01:39 AM

Clemens and Maddux have won big GAMES in the playoffs that resulted in a World Series win. Pedro hasnt yet, and when/if he does then we can redo this thread again and take it from there.

Brushback45

07-09-04, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by los
Clemens and Maddux have won big GAMES in the playoffs that resulted in a World Series win. Pedro hasnt yet, and when/if he does then we can redo this thread again and take it from there.

Pedro pitching in a World Series game is dependent on a whole lot more than what he does.

However, I'll take you up on that offer. We will just have to wait and see what happens. Should be fun to watch.

ForceFive

07-09-04, 09:03 AM

IMO, Pedro is one of the greatest PEAK pitchers ever. As is Sandy Koufax. But they just didn't do it for a long enough period of time (as of yet, for Pedro). Until Pedro adds longevity to that resume, I can't in good conscience include him in with the handful of greatest pitchers ever who at least logged over 3,000 (or close to it) innings.

Brushback45

07-09-04, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by ForceFive
IMO, Pedro is one of the greatest PEAK pitchers ever. As is Sandy Koufax. But they just didn't do it for a long enough period of time (as of yet, for Pedro). Until Pedro adds longevity to that resume, I can't in good conscience include him in with the handful of greatest pitchers ever who at least logged over 3,000 (or close to it) innings.

Oh man, I don't know about 3000 IP. We'll have to see how he holds up, but I don't think he'll have too much trouble getting into the 3000 K club.