Gagne's Streak - Is he really that good? [Archive]

nyyfanatic85

06-19-04, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by twentyquestions
gagne dominates - non-dodgers fans shouldn't act like he's somehow "overrated."

Gee- I'm sorry. :uhh: I guess since I don't ever get to see the guy pitch and don't know a lot about him makes me ignorant right? I never said he was overrated, I was merely questioning if the streak is that impressive.

nyyfanatic85

06-19-04, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by KLJ
yes

Care to back that up?

KLJ

06-19-04, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by nyyfanatic85

Care to back that up?
gagne doesn't get any more easy save opportunities than any other closer... sometimes it's 3 runs and sometimes it's 1 run... the fact that nobody else has even come close to what he is doing speaks for itself...

the streak is truly amazing..

VanHalen5150

06-19-04, 03:22 PM

Last night during the game, Kay said that the tying run has reached 3rd base only once during the streak. That is just dominating. He never comes close to blowing a save.

twentyquestions

06-19-04, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by nyyfanatic85

Gee- I'm sorry. :uhh: I guess since I don't ever get to see the guy pitch and don't know a lot about him makes me ignorant right? I never said he was overrated, I was merely questioning if the streak is that impressive.

sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you thought he was overrated - that comment has just floated around this forum far too often. my fault for putting words in your mouth.

but, yes, the streak's impressive. it requires tons of concentration and some monster pitches - if you're that good, then you can be sure that batters will study you hard. you really can't let up on anyone and on any night. gagne's BAA is .149, a crazy number for a closer.

he does what needs to be done to get the save. this is not to say that he intentionally surrenders 2 runs in a 3 run game, but he does not surrender 1 run in a 1 run game. e.g., this year, he has closed out baltimore 4-3, sf 3-2, sf 4-3, sf 7-6, mets 3-2, the marlins 4-3...etc. he can do it with 3 runs, he can do it with 1.

this kind of streak also requires some luck, but so does everything else

WindRavenX

06-19-04, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by VanHalen5150
Last night during the game, Kay said that the tying run has reached 3rd base only once during the streak. That is just dominating. He never comes close to blowing a save.
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn. That's just sick.:eek:

Yankee Bulldawg

06-19-04, 04:47 PM

Gagne is flat out nasty, would'nt surprise me if Gagne wins his 2nd Cy Young award this season

RhodeyYankee2638

06-19-04, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by WindRavenX

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn. That's just sick.:eek:

Not bad.... But once again, my theory is that good hitters have success against him and he feasts off of terrible hitters. I posted the stats in a thread, I forgot which one though......

Yes, its the Yankee bias, I hate the guy cause he is just so damn good

cubswin

06-19-04, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638

Not bad.... But once again, my theory is that good hitters have success against him and he feasts off of terrible hitters. I posted the stats in a thread, I forgot which one though......

Is this serious? If so, does that mean that he has been lucky enough to not come up against the hearts of opposing teams' orders during this streak?

RhodeyYankee2638

06-19-04, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by cubswin

Is this serious? If so, does that mean that he has been lucky enough to not come up against the hearts of opposing teams' orders during this streak?

LOL no, read my statement below wat I wrote

cubswin

06-19-04, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638

LOL no, read my statement below wat I wrote

That's what made me unsure about whether you were serious - gotcha.

Coney36

06-19-04, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
Yes, its the Yankee bias, I hate the guy cause he is just so damn good

The Yankee bias is this, actually... "I hate the guy cuz he's just so damn good... so can we please get him?" :P

YankyDave

06-19-04, 05:10 PM

I think he's a cheater. You know how those Canadians are. :D

Alex

06-19-04, 05:32 PM

Yes, he's that good. And his manager puts him in good situations - starts innings w/o runners on, and doesn't pitch more than an inning.

WakefieldsCrewSox

06-19-04, 05:33 PM

Absolutely, without a doubt, he is that good.

Qlitch

06-19-04, 05:36 PM

He's FILTHY.

sorigirl

06-19-04, 05:53 PM

What's mind boggling to me is that not even an error or a broken bat single or ANYTHING has occured to prevent his streak from continuing. I mean it's unbelievable, especially when you factor in everything that's outside of his control. He's....I don't even know if there's a word that can describe him. But WOW. I wonder how long the streak will go for.

djhitman01

06-19-04, 07:39 PM

On Fox today they did a poll asking " who would you rather have close". A wopping 71 % voted for Rivera over Gagne. That really shocked me.

Rocketman

06-19-04, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by djhitman01
On Fox today they did a poll asking " who would you rather have close". A wopping 71 % voted for Rivera over Gagne. That really shocked me.

People are stupid. Rivera is incredible, don't get me wrong, but it's not an insult to say that no pitcher has ever been more dominant than Gagne.

WebsterMulligan

06-19-04, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by KLJ

...the streak is truly amazing..
There is simply no other way to look at it. He is downright Filthy McNasty. One of the very best in the game right now. Period.

ryanm1058123

06-19-04, 10:59 PM

The thing about a long streak like that: He is unusable in certain situations. Lets take a look at this situation:

Say Gordon stranded 2nd and 3rd, with no outs in the 9th. 1 run lead. Normally, Joe would call Rivera and see what he can do, see if he can keep that runner from not scoring. Now, with Gagne, THEY would NOT put him in in that situation. They don't want him to lose his streak, therefore, he is a valuable asset lost in that certain situation.

And yes, he is very good. I'd like to see him play in the playoffs before I say he is the best closer in the past 10 years, but him and Rivera are near the top.

JfromJersey

06-19-04, 11:23 PM

Until he's put in the utmost pressure situation in a post season game I'm not going to say he's better than Mo. Closing out games in the playoffs or world series is a whole different level of pressure for a closer.

cubswin

06-19-04, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by ryanm1058123
The thing about a long streak like that: He is unusable in certain situations. Lets take a look at this situation:

Say Gordon stranded 2nd and 3rd, with no outs in the 9th. 1 run lead. Normally, Joe would call Rivera and see what he can do, see if he can keep that runner from not scoring. Now, with Gagne, THEY would NOT put him in in that situation. They don't want him to lose his streak, therefore, he is a valuable asset lost in that certain situation.

And yes, he is very good. I'd like to see him play in the playoffs before I say he is the best closer in the past 10 years, but him and Rivera are near the top.

Are you speculating, or is this true? I find it hard to believe that he hasn't been used in situations like that.

sorigirl

06-19-04, 11:31 PM

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/nyy/news/nyy_news.jsp?ymd=20040619&content_id=774713&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp
TORRE: "I don't think you can compare one reliever to another (Gagne to Rivera). That's apples and oranges."

I have to agree that it's not really comparable as to who is better. I mean it can be argued that Gagne has no PS experience (they even mentioned that on FOX today), it can also be argued that Mariano has been doing it a lot longer and therefore, being measured over a long period of time is the true test of dominance....BUT it can also be argued that Mo has never even come close to such a streak like Gagne's in his career. I'm goin with Joe on this one: apples and oranges. ;)

DaBoys4LifeNYY35

06-20-04, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by cubswin

Are you speculating, or is this true? I find it hard to believe that he hasn't been used in situations like that.

Speculating. Gagne was used just the other night in Baltimore when there were 2 outs and men on base. He's had a 0.1 IP save against Florida and a .2 IP save against Baltimore this year, in which LA won by 5 runs and 4 runs, respectively--meaning, oh my gosh, THERE WERE MEN ON BASE and the tying run on-deck in the 9th when Tracy brought him out. Our bullpen is good enough to where this usually does not have to happen. A guy like Mota isn't going to leave guys stranded on 2nd and 3rd to begin with.

He's also pitched 2 innings in a game twice this year and notched a few 1.1 IP saves. He is not always only used in save situations and/or in the the 9th with bases cleared, but the fact that he usually is is a testament to the quality of the rest of our bullpen more than anything else.

Why would Flash or Mota or another set-up man be pitching the 9th with a 1-run lead in the first place? If there's a 3-run or less lead in the 9th, especially if it's just a 1-run lead, isn't the closer 99% of the time going to be brought in for the save, especially if he's as automatic as Rivera and Gagne?

SubwayFanatic

06-20-04, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by JfromJersey
Until he's put in the utmost pressure situation in a post season game I'm not going to say he's better than Mo. Closing out games in the playoffs or world series is a whole different level of pressure for a closer.

Arguments like these really make me scratch my head.

What if Gagne saves another 100 in a row, is dominant for the next eight years, but never plays in the playoffs? Are you honestly going to tell me that he is not better than Rivera, simply because he hasn't done it in October?

JfromJersey

06-20-04, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by SubwayFanatic

Arguments like these really make me scratch my head.

What if Gagne saves another 100 in a row, is dominant for the next eight years, but never plays in the playoffs? Are you honestly going to tell me that he is not better than Rivera, simply because he hasn't done it in October?

Yes.
If you ask me who I want on the mound in the deciding game of a divisional or league championship or world series, trying to protect a 1 run lead, I'll opt for the guy who has done it before, and proven himself, over the guy who hasn't, no matter how good he's been in the regular season. I'm not saying Gagne can't, but he has to prove to me that he is lights out in the PS as well as the RS. This year he may very well get a chance to prove it. We'll see.

Doc's Private Stash

06-20-04, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35
He is not always only used in save situations and/or in the the 9th with bases cleared, but the fact that he usually is is a testament to the quality of the rest of our bullpen more than anything else.

I think this is an extremely important point that shouldn't be overlooked when discussing Gagne's streak. Because the Dodgers have had the kind of lights out set-up guys they have had in front of him over the last couple seasons, it's very rare that Gagne gets asked to clean up other people's messes. This streak, while primarily the result of Gagne's filthiness, is also the product of a strong L.A. bullpen on the whole. Sorigirl also made a good point about just how incredible this streak is from the standpoint that Gagne has managed to work around every little flair hit, botched grounder, etc. And he's managed to avoid getting beaten by flair hits, botched grounders, etc. with men on base. Unbelievable streak...

Louis B. Tiffany

06-20-04, 01:37 PM

Last night Gagne got credit for a save where he was leading by three runs. If he pitches often with a two or three run lead, is the streak really that impressive?

You're kidding right?? Gagne has a streak for the ages and based on one outing we're trying to extrapolate it to back up an absurd inference.

Obviously over the course of his long streak he has had easy save opportuniteis and difficult save opportunities like any closer. The only difference is that HE HASN'T BLOWN A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Then we wonder why some basball fans have a problem with us.

Let me ask, have you ever insinuated such a thing about Mo?

nyyfanatic85

06-20-04, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by twentyquestions

sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you thought he was overrated - that comment has just floated around this forum far too often. my fault for putting words in your mouth.

my bad dude- I didn't mean to be a d*ck. I guess my question is answered now:lol:

KingMouse

06-21-04, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by JfromJersey

Yes.
If you ask me who I want on the mound in the deciding game of a divisional or league championship or world series, trying to protect a 1 run lead, I'll opt for the guy who has done it before, and proven himself, over the guy who hasn't, no matter how good he's been in the regular season. I'm not saying Gagne can't, but he has to prove to me that he is lights out in the PS as well as the RS. This year he may very well get a chance to prove it. We'll see.

Suppose the uniforms were switched.

ChewieTobbacca

06-21-04, 01:30 AM

Exactly - if the uniforms were switched, no one here would be saying the same thing

Coney36

06-21-04, 02:07 AM

The guy I saw tonight was pretty damn dominant, even if he did give up a run. And to do anything like he did thus far... it's not just luck, he has to be pretty damn good too.

donniesrecordholdsup

06-21-04, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by Coney36
The guy I saw tonight was pretty damn dominant, even if he did give up a run. And to do anything like he did thus far... it's not just luck, he has to be pretty damn good too.

gange was dominant tonight ? i must have been watching a different game .

Coney36

06-21-04, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by donniesrecordholdsup

gange was dominant tonight ? i must have been watching a different game .

Well, personally I didn't think the umpiring was way out of line, but then again, I'm not really much for measuring to the inch where every pitch goes. He looked dominant striking out A-Rod in the 8th... :dunno:

domnyyfan

06-21-04, 02:09 PM

Gagne is very good - but I'd be interested to see how he'd do in the AL. He's always been in the NL, right? My suspicion is that he wouldn't be riding such a long streak now. But, I'm glad that we don't have to play him more often then we already have - not much at all ;)

Wrigley

06-21-04, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Coney36
Well, personally I didn't think the umpiring was way out of line, but then again, I'm not really much for measuring to the inch where every pitch goes. He looked dominant striking out A-Rod in the 8th... :dunno:

No pitcher could ever be effective if they didn't get calls outside of that little box ESPN calls a strikezeone. Both change-ups to A-Rod caught the plate before sailing outside, where the "K-Zone" would spot them when they were in LoDuca's glove. If Morgan didn't have such a boner for the K-Zone toy, then I think a lot fewer people would be in such an uproar because both pitches looked pretty good from the regular camera angle. The final pitch to Matsui is the only ridiculous call now that I watch it again.

Yanksagain

06-21-04, 03:01 PM

Gagne is the best closer in the majors. Hands down. Look at the numbers. Look at the confidence he has on the mound. Look at the fear in the opposing batters eyes. October or no October he is the best right now (and has been for the past few years). Gagne and FRod are the two relievers (outside of Mo of course) that I most look forward to watching on my Extra Innings package.