The Giambi Bashing [Archive] - NYYFans.com Forum

WiffleWOOD

04-26-04, 09:31 AM

I feel like there are two very distinct camps one could separate posters into: the "Jeter Bashers" and the "Giambi Bashers." The former group is comprised mostly of sabermetricians, the latter by "eyes guys."

The Giambi/Hudson thread in Inside the Lines has me more frustrated than ever before. The ignorance on that thread is astounding; I find it amazing how people cannot see the hitter that Giambi is:

Average numbers over the last 5 years:

168 H
34 2B
39 HR
122 BB
.311 BA
.438 OBP
~.597 SLG
1.035 OPS

Can anyone explain why there is so much hate and blind ignorance for Giambi?

AngelAstro

04-26-04, 10:27 AM

Basically, it comes down to Giambi is not the same hitter he was in Oakland. Depending on what numbers you look at, this may or may not be the case.

Check out this page in the thread about Giambi's homers are all solo shots:

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?postid=1235451#post1235451

Basically, for the Yankees, Giambi hasn't hit as well with the bases loaded as he did for the A's. Though his numbers with RISP are very similar.

The real problem is that people were expecting Giambi to be the awesome hitter that he was with the A's. Unfortunately there was a strong possibility that Giambi would not be able to live up to those expectations for numerous reasons:

1) His 2000-01 seasons were awesome. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/giambja01.shtml) I doubt many players outside of the great ballplayers (like Bonds) can put up many seasons like that in a row. In fact, his 1999 numbers and 2002 numbers are very similar.

2) Injuries plagued Giambi all of last year. People don't seem to realize that eye and knee injuries make hitting more difficult. I guess that isn't obvious, can't see the ball, can't hit the ball.

3) Giambi was signed to a 7-year contract when he was already 30 years old. Most know that after 30, most players go into decline. It was unreasonable to assume that Giambi would produce like in 2000-01 for his years as a Yankee, but everyone expects MVP type years for his time here.

In other words, expectations are so high, that it is impossible for him to meet them. Plus, the Yanks haven't won it all since he's been here, so it's easy for Giambi to be the scapegoat. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.

markp

04-26-04, 01:01 PM

1. Jeter became a media target around 2001. Every year from then to now, a lot of people have gone way out of their way to find fault with him. We've been told a lot of SSs are better than him in that time, including Tejada (by almost everyone, including some people who should have known better), Guzman, and several others. Never mind that Tejada only had one season with a higher OPS+ than Jeter, everyone still says it.
One of the main assaults on Jeter is his lack of range. Without using UZR or any of the subjective measurements (which, given the anti-Jeter bias evident isn't neccessarily 100% reliable) and using only range factor, Jeter has a 4.00. Garciaparra has a 4.41. The league over Jeter's career has a 4.36.Guzman, who is often cited as one of the better glove men in MLB has a 4.14 over his career.
The rather minor differences in how many balls he gets to compared to an average SS is nowhere near the difference in his offense to average SSs over his career. He's still a very valuable player right where he is.
But since he best represents the Yankees, the great many people who like to knock the team use him as their #1 target. And a lot of Yankee fans, wanting to sound impartial and intelligent chime right in. His recent slump has only encouraged the naysayers, and their impressions from this spring will carry over through the summer and fall unless Jeter has a repeat of 1999.

2. Giambi is the first big name FA signing on the current roster. Mussina may be almost as valuable, but that year Manny was the biggest name and Boston signed him. When he had an injury plagued year last year, all of the people who can't remember past twelve months ago (and there are more of them posting in btl than the ones that can) decided Giambi was the reason we weren't winning WS any more. Never mind that winning three straight post-season series 4 out of 5 years was againt the odds and incredibly lucky for any team.

The maion thing is, when fans don't get exactly what they want (in this case, a fast start and a sweep of Boston) they start attacking their bets players. Boston did it to Yaz for years, and Yankee fans throughout the 50's routinely booed Mantle. It's because most people are a bunch of dopes. (To quote Kornheiser.)

YankeeFan1

04-26-04, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by WiffleWOOD
Can anyone explain why there is so much hate and blind ignorance for Giambi? I actually find the hatred and mean vindictiveness towards Derek Jeter to be more disturbing.

Just about every prominent sabermetrician has beat it over our heads (including Neyer) that Derek Jeter is not just a horrible SS, but in fact one of the worse (if not the worse) in the league. This mantra has been repeated a million times in the Yankees by moderators and many posters on this board. Any refusal to accept this hypothesis is met with ridicule and denigration in an attempt to cower the doubter of the "Jeter is the worse SS ever" position. This horrible slump (I think Jeter is injured on his wrists myself) is another excuse for the anti-Jeter crew to get in their usual shots which I find sickening though I find the unfair bashing of Giambi to almost just as bad.

AngelAstro

04-26-04, 03:00 PM

YankeeFan1, I think most people who bash Jeter are bashing his defense, not his overall ability. I, for one, also criticize Jeter's defense because 1) the stats say so and 2) my own eyes say so.

That said, to say that Jeter is the worst SS is crazy. He's the worst fielding SS, but his bat more than makes up for his poor fielding because he is a great (although not right now) hitter. Jeter's offensive production greatly outweighs his defensive deficiencies. The true problem is now that the Yankees have a better fielding SS, the bashing of Jeter's fielding will definitely be under the spotlight (and rightly so).

In any case, I don't want this to turn into a Jeter should/shouldn't be playing SS thread. But there is a huge difference between saying Jeter is the worst fielding SS in the league and saying he is the worst SS in the league.

WiffleWOOD

04-26-04, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by AngelAstro
YankeeFan1, I think most people who bash Jeter are bashing his defense, not his overall ability. I, for one, also criticize Jeter's defense because 1) the stats say so and 2) my own eyes say so.

That said, to say that Jeter is the worst SS is crazy. He's the worst fielding SS, but his bat more than makes up for his poor fielding because he is a great (although not right now) hitter. Jeter's offensive production greatly outweighs his defensive deficiencies. The true problem is now that the Yankees have a better fielding SS, the bashing of Jeter's fielding will definitely be under the spotlight (and rightly so).

In any case, I don't want this to turn into a Jeter should/shouldn't be playing SS thread. But there is a huge difference between saying Jeter is the worst fielding SS in the league and saying he is the worst SS in the league.

that's right on target, angelastro. When moderators (i'm assuming that is about me) and other posters criticize Jeter, it is of course not about his bat. The recent slump has nothing to do with the criticism Jeter gets from sabermetricians; that criticism, rightly so, is only against his defense.

Dave in MD

04-26-04, 04:42 PM

I can't even go on the main forum right now. Too much nonsense to wade through.