View Full Version : Dusty Baker's Racial Spin on Playing in the Heat...
b-ball-lunachick
07-07-03, 11:38 AM
I heard them talking about this on ESPN radio this morning and they said the reporters talked about how this conversation turned awkward and uncomfortable...
they were specifically speaking about a black journalist in Dallas (have to find that article) reported that these comments were very strange to be made to a group of media -- that if the same comments were made by a white person about white people, it would be a huge deal...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0707/1577519.html
CHICAGO -- Dusty Baker has already warmed up to the idea of having to manage all those dog-days-of-summer afternoon games at Wrigley Field. He can't change the schedule, and being a California native and former player, he was accustomed to long days in the outfield sun.
But did he spend too much time in it?
Baker, in his first year as Cubs manager, delved into heat and skin color when talking to reporters Saturday, saying black and Hispanic players hold up better under the summer sun and heat.
"It's easier for most Latin guys and it's easier for most minority people because most of us come from heat. You don't find too many brothers in New Hampshire and Maine and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Right?" he said with a chuckle.
"We were brought over here for the heat, right? Isn't that history? Weren't we brought over because we could take the heat?"
"Your skin color is more conducive to heat than it is to the lighter-skinned people. I don't see brothers running around burnt," Baker said before the Cubs beat St. Louis at Wrigley. "That's a fact. I'm not making this up. I'm not seeing some brothers walking around with some white stuff on their ears and noses."
Do you think these comments were a little strange?
b-ball-lunachick
07-07-03, 11:53 AM
here's the story from the black journalist in Texax -- this guy makes some good points and really disagrees with Baker:
Cubs' Baker needs sunblock for mouth
07/07/2003
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/sports/columnists/kblackistone/stories/070703dnspoblackistone.23a91.html
Halfway into his first season of having to manage all those dog-days-of-summer afternoon ballgames at Wrigley Field, there is evidence that Dusty Baker has been standing out in the sun far too long. The only thing is, you probably couldn't get him to believe it.
The first-year black skipper of the Cubs argued the other day that black and Hispanic players hold up better under summer sun and heat.
"You have to pretend that you're a construction worker out there," Baker explained to assembled media before his Cubs beat the Cardinals, 6-5, on a hot and humid Saturday in Chicago. "You have no choice. It's easier for me. It's easier for most Latin guys and it's easier for most minority people. Most of us come from heat.
"We were brought over here for the heat, right?" Baker continued. "Isn't that history? Weren't we brought over here because we can take the heat?"
Oh, brother.
It should be pointed out that The Associated Press prefaced Baker's comments by noting that he was chuckling when he launched into his dizzying dissertation. That was to suggest that maybe he wasn't taking his own words seriously. Unfortunately, he plowed ahead.
"[Black's] skin color is more conducive to heat than it is for lighter skin people, right?" he went on. "You don't see brothers running around burnt. Yeah, that's a fact. I'm not making this stuff up. Right? You don't see some brothers walking around with white stuff on their ears and noses."
Who, boy.
Now, I'd like to just chuckle along with Baker, too. In fact, had he said the same thing to me in the privacy of a corner booth in some watering hole, I probably would have just chuckled at his commentary and shook my head.
But he said what he did to the media. Outlets around the country, including The Dallas Morning News, picked it up, and it was incorrect. It stood only to fuel a misnomer that has led to a stereotype.
There are probably a lot of folk, including other black folk, who think dark-skinned people don't wilt so easily in the heat of summer and who think dark skin is a natural protector against the sun's dangerous rays. For the record, dark skin doesn't have much to do with saving one from getting sapped in the sun or collapsing from it. That has to do with the body's ability to cool and not overheat or avoid what we call heatstroke.
Baker probably hasn't been around Chicago long enough to know this, but during a blistering July there in 1995, most of the folks who died in metropolitan Chicago were black.
There is even a military study that suggests black soldiers who carry the sickle trait, which is African in nature, are more prone to heat-related death than anyone.
And while they were most likely descendants of African slaves (yes, some were enslaved by other Africans, for those of you who for some reason feel more comfortable with that truth), African slaves weren't imported to the Americas because of their skin color.
They weren't selected because of some innate ability to stay on their feet in unforgiving heat, either, although it's been written that native Americans and Europeans didn't fare as well in the same conditions. Africans were imported because the Americas' economy required an inexhaustible human pool that could be exploited, and Europeans viewed Africa as just that.
Although skin pigment, or melanin, does provide some protection from the sun's rays, it is hardly foolproof. Unfortunately, so may dark-skinned people think so that melanoma, the most dangerous form of skin cancer, is more deadly among folk like Baker who don't think sunblock out of a tube is necessary for them.
That is but another reason Baker's comments should be debunked. They really are unhealthy.
There is one more reason to deplore Baker's words, too. It is the not so small fact that to let him go unscathed would invite the charge of double standard. It levels that black critics grant black offenders to good intelligence easy escape from castigation.
I don't want any of my previous or future condemnations of similarly foolish statements out of white mouths to be dismissed because I refrained from criticizing my own. After all, wrong is wrong, no matter the perpetrator's skin color. And Dusty Baker was flat-out wrong.
E-mail kblackistone@dallasnews.com
bakntime
07-07-03, 12:01 PM
[EDIT: Ok, after posting this I went back and fully read that last article, about those studies and whatnot. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the studies are just inaccurate, with too many variables and too small sample size. Either way, I tend to stand by the claim that people who come from a culture that has lived in a hot and sunny area will better be able to deal with sun and heat, just like someone who's ancestors lived in Alaska for thousands of years will better be able to deal with the cold. Anyway, I'm leaving the rest of my post unchanged:]
Here's the thing. He crossed the line here. You just shouldn't talk about stuff like this. Although, I've always thought Dusty was an idiot. Who else would let their 3 year old in the dugout of the WS?
Anyway, it really is true that Africans are more suited to higher heat conditions. But I'm sure that's true of any culture that's derived from equitorial origins. That's called evolution. You become more "suited" to your environment. It's science, not racism. Fare skinned people will tend to have a tougher time with sun/heat than a dark skinned person. Not always, just in general. Like I said, that's not racism, it's science, it's genetics.
Dusty's not technically wrong, but the way he said things, making references to slavery, etc, was just plain wrong.
b-ball-lunachick
07-07-03, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by bakntime
Dusty's not technically wrong, but the way he said things, making references to slavery, etc, was just plain wrong.
I hear ya -- I'm not sure what is inaccurate or accurate, but it does seem to be wrong to speak about in that forum-- and this line in particular bothers me the most: "Weren't we brought over because we could take the heat?"
As for there being no brothers in Maine, NH, etc because it's cold -- doesn't it get just as cold in Chicago? :confused:
Bern Baby Be
07-07-03, 12:27 PM
I don't know if Dusty's comments were right or wrong. I think he was wrong to say them, only because of the aftermath that things like this brings about. When talking to the press people should just stay away from things like that because there are bound to be people who will take them the wrong way or will want to take them the wrong way.
I heard a caller on Michael Kay's show say that he thought it was wrong because the comments implied that White people can't take the heat. Don LoGrecca, who was subbing for Kay said that it's not a big deal if that's implied; not being able to take the heat is nowhere near as insulting as saying that Whites (or Blacks or any other group) "lack the necessities (to borrow a phrase from the late Al Campanis)" to do a certain job.
Hitman23
07-07-03, 12:29 PM
This is an absolute joke. I can't believe it's even news. The guy said it in jest. It was a joke. He was laughing. Why the hell are people so sensative! It's things like this that make the racial problems in this world impossible to overcome.
Soriambi
07-07-03, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by bakntime
Here's the thing. He crossed the line here. You just shouldn't talk about stuff like this. Although, I've always thought Dusty was an idiot. Who else would let their 3 year old in the dugout of the WS?
Or choosing Armando Benitez for the NL AS team? :D :p
bakntime
07-07-03, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Hitman23
This is an absolute joke. I can't believe it's even news. The guy said it in jest. It was a joke. He was laughing. Why the hell are people so sensative! It's things like this that make the racial problems in this world impossible to overcome.
No, it's not the reason there are racial problems. People are different. We need to accept that. Racial problems rise from ignorance, not ignorant statements. But anyway, I don't care if he was joking or not, the part that's inappropriate in any context is this part:
"We were brought over here for the heat, right? Isn't that history? Weren't we brought over because we could take the heat?"
I don't care how much you're laughing when you say that, that's just wrong. I don't care if it's rhetorical or whatever, it's just not a good thing to say. You want to talk about dark skinned people being able to bear heat and sun, that's fine. There may be some genetic reasons for that. That's not racism, that's people being different. We are different. But hinting at slavery when talking about baseball? NOT GOOD.
Bern Baby Be
07-07-03, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by bakntime
...But hinting at slavery when talking about baseball? NOT GOOD.
Is that what the hoopla is all about? Because he hinted at slavery? Is that why people are raising a ruckus? If he hadn't mentioned slavery would everything he said would be okay? :confused: :rolleyes:
b-ball-lunachick
07-07-03, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Hitman23
This is an absolute joke. I can't believe it's even news. The guy said it in jest. It was a joke. He was laughing. Why the hell are people so sensative! It's things like this that make the racial problems in this world impossible to overcome.
from what I heard on ESPN today, they said that he started out somewhat joking/tongue and cheek, and then proceeded to get quite serious about it...which made the reporters a bit uncomfortable...maybe people are too sensitive and politically correct, but I guess the point is, when you're a public figure, is that the correct forum for that discussion? and if you reverse the race, would it have been acceptable?
Also, when you open those comments up to that forum, it opens up interpretation? as the caller from ESPN radio said, is he implying white people can't take the heat? and so on and so on...
MulderHudsonZito
07-07-03, 05:07 PM
What's ridiculous is that this story made it's way into the papers and is falling off the lips of sportscasters everywhere.
Racism in this country is only antagonized by political correctness; there is a thing called too much sensitivity.
What ever happened to turning your cheek when someone says something that you find distasteful? Dusty wasn't being malicious.
People are too easily affronted these days. And that offends me.
SanFrANSKY
07-07-03, 06:58 PM
I agree with MHZ. It is rather amazing and not a little bit sad that this was even news. I think that people are so concerned with political correctness that they forget to have a sense of humor. I hope that Dusty is not coerced into some kind of half-assed apology for harmless comments that he made totally in jest.
MulderHudsonZito
07-07-03, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by SanFrANSKY
... I hope that Dusty is not coerced into some kind of half-assed apology for harmless comments that he made totally in jest. [/B]
(Hey, you're back from New York. Did you remember my White Castle?)
Ditto that. Even if he didn't make that comment in jest, which he didn't, he's just being coerced into saying that he did, who cares? It was totally innocuous, and as such deserves to be round filed.
JfromJersey
07-07-03, 08:39 PM
I guess Viking tackle Korey Stringer was an exception to Baker's rule eh?
Pedro's cuff
07-07-03, 09:17 PM
I think Dusty had sun stroke when he made those comments. That's so strange.
Originally posted by MulderHudsonZito
What's ridiculous is that this story made it's way into the papers and is falling off the lips of sportscasters everywhere.
Racism in this country is only antagonized by political correctness; there is a thing called too much sensitivity.
You may be a conservative and I may be somewhere to left of that but we're on the same page here. Political correctness is simply a form of censorship and that leads to more misunderstanding than the occasional inappropriate comment ever does, though why its offensive to say that blacks are better equipped to handle heat because of a genetic trait is somewhat lost on me. He may be right, he may be wrong, the truth is no one knows.
This particular issue is probably not worthy of study or even discussion (technology has rendered climate largely irrelevant in human affairs) but to use this silly matter as an example, suppose there is a gene that can be isolated that does in fact give African-Americans some ability to deal with heat and that discovery leads in turn to some benefits for the whole of mankind. But that gene will never be discovered if the very act of even bringing the possibility up is scorned.
Part of this is simply the media needing grist for its mill and racism is always grist in this society. But I sometimes wonder whether those who clamor at the least little discussion about race aren't in fact subconsciously at least worried about what's in their own hearts. Methinks he doth protest too much and all that.
b-ball-lunachick
07-07-03, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by JfromJersey
I guess Viking tackle Korey Stringer was an exception to Baker's rule eh?
J -- I was thinking that same thing on the way home today...it isn't about sunburn, it's about heat stroke...Baker is obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer. :D
b-ball-lunachick
07-07-03, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Spiker
You may be a conservative and I may be somewhere to left of that but we're on the same page here. Political correctness is simply a form of censorship and that leads to more misunderstanding than the occasional inappropriate comment ever does, though why its offensive to say that blacks are better equipped to handle heat because of a genetic trait is somewhat lost on me. He may be right, he may be wrong, the truth is no one knows.
This particular issue is probably not worthy of study or even discussion (technology has rendered climate largely irrelevant in human affairs) but to use this silly matter as an example, suppose there is a gene that can be isolated that does in fact give African-Americans some ability to deal with heat and that discovery leads in turn to some benefits for the whole of mankind. But that gene will never be discovered if the very act of even bringing the possibility up is scorned.
Part of this is simply the media needing grist for its mill and racism is always grist in this society. But I sometimes wonder whether those who clamor at the least little discussion about race aren't in fact subconsciously at least worried about what's in their own hearts. Methinks he doth protest too much and all that.
spiker -- I understand your post and to a point agree with it...there wasn't any one thing that Dusty said that was outrageous but it just seemed like a strange forum to make statements like that...and making people uncomfortable in that setting doesn't do anything to improve race relations...I don't know I'm torn on this one...
here's dusty's response (sounding a bit like Mickey Rivers to me :D):
Baker can take the critics' heat
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-030707baker,1,7378115.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
Rick Morrissey
In The Wake Of The News
Baker raises heat in unusual way
Jul 6, 2003
July 7, 2003, 9:40 PM CDT
Dusty Baker is taking criticism for saying that black and Latin players are better suited to play in the heat, but the Cubs' manager isn't backing away from his comments.
"I'm used to getting beat up," Baker said. "Like Popeye used to say, 'I say what I mean, I mean what I say.' I meant what I said. I say what I feel. I try to be as honest as possible, and if that's how I feel, that's how I feel. And if that's what I said, you write it. They wrote it. It doesn't matter to me. I still believe what I said. I'm not going to take it back, or else I wouldn't have said it in the first place." :D
Baker said he told reporters the same thing he has told his players in the past—that part of the reason slaves were brought to America from Africa was their ability to work in the heat of the South.
"Everyone was talking about how hot it was, and I told them, 'That's why my ancestors were brought over here, for this heat,'" Baker said. "That's history. My mother [taught] Black American history in Sacramento. What she told me, I'd repeat it.
"It sounds to me like a lot of people don't know history. If they take it as reverse racism … they can take it however they want. I stand by what I said."
Baker said his comments had nothing to do with the Cubs' traditional inability to win.
"You're looking way too deep," he said, laughing. "Plus, I wasn't talking about white people, I was talking about black people. If I want to talk about African-Americans, that's my prerogative. I can say stuff and call someone of my color things that you all can't say."
Baker obviously would never describe himself as politically correct. "Yeah," he said. "I was stating the facts, Jack."
funny how he said he can speak for black people and you folks can't...I wonder if the Latin population minded him speaking for them? ;)
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
spiker -- I understand your post and to a point agree with it...there wasn't any one thing that Dusty said that was outrageous but it just seemed like a strange forum to make statements like that...and making people uncomfortable in that setting doesn't do anything to improve race relations...I don't know I'm torn on this one...
here's dusty's response (sounding a bit like Mickey Rivers to me :D):
funny how he said he can speak for black people and you folks can't...I wonder if the Latin population minded him speaking for them? ;)
I am not for a second defending Baker's statements as wise or even appropriate, necessarily. I know, because I have some interest in the subject, that his musings on slavery were hopeless simplistic. And he was selling what he later admitted was ancedotal evidence as scientific fact. That's not very smart.
What I'm concerned about is the reaction. Every time anyone says anything about race, even if at bottom it's innocous, it is parsed and examined and diced up into little pieces and then all hell breaks loose. I don't believe that in the long run that is good for the health of a pluralistic society.
What we should be watching for are statements that imply that somehow one race is inferior to another. Instead, we've reached the situation where any discussion of race has become taboo and it's justified by the magic words "fostering a sterotype." But there are characteristics inherent in each race. That's why humans are divided into races by the people who study these things. They are relatively small and unimportant but they exist. To pretend they don't is a form of anti-intellectualism, and I ain't got no use for that.:)
They were harmless comments, made in jest. That being said, Dusty should know that the media and much of the world is ULTRA-sensitive any time a race issue comes up.
I don't think it was a big deal at all; however, if it had been a caucasian making those statements, he would have been fired. That's just the truth.
I think everyone should lighten up about stuff like this.
I'll leave you with one of my favorite moments from the late, great Harry Caray --
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun?!?!? He's from Mexico!" -- Harry Caray
patrick.o
07-08-03, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Spiker
What we should be watching for are statements that imply that somehow one race is inferior to another. Instead, we've reached the situation where any discussion of race has become taboo
Sad, ain't it?
b-ball-lunachick
07-08-03, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Spiker
I am not for a second defending Baker's statements as wise or even appropriate, necessarily. I know, because I have some interest in the subject, that his musings on slavery were hopeless simplistic. And he was selling what he later admitted was ancedotal evidence as scientific fact. That's not very smart.
What I'm concerned about is the reaction. Every time anyone says anything about race, even if at bottom it's innocous, it is parsed and examined and diced up into little pieces and then all hell breaks loose. I don't believe that in the long run that is good for the health of a pluralistic society.
What we should be watching for are statements that imply that somehow one race is inferior to another. Instead, we've reached the situation where any discussion of race has become taboo and it's justified by the magic words "fostering a sterotype." But there are characteristics inherent in each race. That's why humans are divided into races by the people who study these things. They are relatively small and unimportant but they exist. To pretend they don't is a form of anti-intellectualism, and I ain't got no use for that.:)
couldn't agree more Spiker -- one of the best posts I've ever read on here. :)
b-ball-lunachick
07-08-03, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by koko
They were harmless comments, made in jest. That being said, Dusty should know that the media and much of the world is ULTRA-sensitive any time a race issue comes up.
I don't think it was a big deal at all; however, if it had been a caucasian making those statements, he would have been fired. That's just the truth.
I think everyone should lighten up about stuff like this.
I'll leave you with one of my favorite moments from the late, great Harry Caray --
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun?!?!? He's from Mexico!" -- Harry Caray
ditto to this post too...Koko - I never heard that quote before lol. :D
Bozidar
07-08-03, 09:39 AM
Anyone else here a fan of "Tough Crowd" with Colin Quinn? They tear all that taboo ................ to death. No holds barred.. and it's great. Everyone get's slammed, everyone laughs, and no harm is really done. Baker made these, albeit dumb, comments in jest.. it's not a big deal. I do agree that with the politically correct police of today, it might have been a different story had it been Art Howe, or Tony LaRussa..
VINCENZO
07-08-03, 10:02 AM
are STRANGE.....are indeed THE STRANGE PEOPLE THEMSELVES.
Brain washed for 40 years by the Media.
Deny life as it is.
How many great tenors are ITALIAN?
How many are black?
How many are Latino?
How many great crooners are ITALIAN?
Como, Sinatra, Bennett, Damone, and I can go on for an hour.
But....that's considered a 'strange statement today, eh?
I guess it's my imagination playing tricks on me, eh?
To deny this is just plain stupid.
Caruso, Lanza, Luciano, Bocelli, are not all Italians?????
Who are the better basketball players? I guess 75% of the NBA being black is my imagination at work again. I'm just dreaming this.
Who are the leading comedy writers the past 100 years? I guess I'm just dreaming that they're Jewish.
Give me a break with this Liberal bull................! We're all so holy on the Net. Total crapola.
These are facts. Wake up and smell the f---king coffee.
Ansky39
07-08-03, 11:50 AM
ignorance begets ignorance.... thanks dusty... :rolleyes:
rightfielder21
07-08-03, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Anyone else here a fan of "Tough Crowd" with Colin Quinn? They tear all that taboo ................ to death. No holds barred.. and it's great.
I love that show...:lol:
MulderHudsonZito
07-08-03, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Anyone else here a fan of "Tough Crowd" with Colin Quinn? They tear all that taboo ................ to death. No holds barred.. and it's great. Everyone get's slammed, everyone laughs, and no harm is really done...
Bozidar, when I was first posting on this topic, my mind went exactly where yours did. Tough Crowd should be a model of how to behave when no malice is intended; how different would this world be if we could speak so openly, and fearlessly, about race?? The jokes on that show are absolutely brutal, and of course designed to get a reaction, yet I never see anyone get mad or offended. Granted, these people are all friends, so they know from where those jokes are coming, so it's certainly a bit different.
Did you catch the show where Jim Norton is talking about how his life is so bad, and he says "look at my life, my two best friends are these idiots--a drunken Irishman and this stupid spook (pointing at Patrice O'neil)"
I didn't see Patrice get mad. In fact, he was doubled over with laughter.
bmorebamma
07-13-03, 03:49 PM
racial sterotyping UGH. did anyone see jimmy kimmel , he actially dida a test to see weather dustys theroy worked.
I never got offended when they said "White men can't jump"...:D
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