View Full Version : Save opportunities?
Bozidar
03-31-03, 09:22 PM
The league chances say that a Save Chance is -2 points.
Why?
patrick.o
03-31-03, 09:53 PM
I'm guessing it's because there's no blown save category. The plan we voted on gets you 4 for a save and -2 for a blown save, so a save would be a save (+6) and a save op. (-2) to equal 4, and a blown save would just be a save op. (-2) to equal -2.
What I'm a bit foggy on is how wild pitches and balks got included at -.5 each? Those weren't in the scoring system we voted on.
patrick.o
03-31-03, 10:01 PM
And after re-reading that pitching points poll thread, I have to agree with Ansky regarding the -5 for a loss. I know it's too late to change that now, but at the time being a rookie I didn't see what difference it made. Now I know. Two guys can go out and have exactly identical nights and both give up 3 runs. One guy's offense scores 4 for him and the other guy's scores 2. A 15 point difference between those two guys is a bit excessive, imo.
Bozidar
03-31-03, 11:04 PM
Gotcha, patrick.
I wonder if a guy could get a save opp, but not a blown save or a save?
Originally posted by Bozidar
Gotcha, patrick.
I wonder if a guy could get a save opp, but not a blown save or a save?
Yes, but it's rare.
A pitcher could come into a blowout (say 15-2) to start the 7th inning, and pitch 3 innings. Technically a save opportunity, I don't think the official scorer HAS to award the pitcher the save.
However, I have seen pitchers get a save in just such a situtaion, so like I said, it's rare.
Saxmania
04-01-03, 07:10 AM
It's very uncommon, and I wouldn't have done it that way if Yahoo had included the Blown Save scoring category. They really should have, you know.
I go back and forth on this "losses" thing. On the one hand, I do understand that it's contrary to the usual fantasy baseball scoring, and that some may feel it penalises pitchers on poor teams. On the other hand, it's a corollary of the "win" category (doesn't that reward pitchers on good teams?) and if a pitcher gets credit for his side scoring a lot of runs to win, shouldn't he be penalised for his side not scoring a lot of runs to lose? More accurately, shouldn't pitchers pitch to the scoreboard?
To take a real-life example: Roy Halladay last night lost the game for the Blue Jays. Although he was only charged with 3 ERs, there's no question that had he not allowed the Yankees to hit him hard and often, his team might have had a chance to get to Clemens/the bullpen. He cost his team that game, and so he cost Saxmania's Swingers points. Under the old system, I might actually have gained points for him despite him costing his team the game.
In other words, with losses as a penalty, your pitcher can be a liability - just like real life. I like that.
However, the points system can still be changed at this late stage. I'd be tempted to bump IP back up to 3 points to re-balance the pitchers' value, but I don't think there's any harm in waiting a little while.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Ansky39
04-01-03, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by patrick.o
And after re-reading that pitching points poll thread, I have to agree with Ansky regarding the -5 for a loss. I know it's too late to change that now, but at the time being a rookie I didn't see what difference it made. Now I know. Two guys can go out and have exactly identical nights and both give up 3 runs. One guy's offense scores 4 for him and the other guy's scores 2. A 15 point difference between those two guys is a bit excessive, imo.
ahh, the cavalry's finally comin... :D
Ansky39
04-01-03, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania
It's very uncommon, and I wouldn't have done it that way if Yahoo had included the Blown Save scoring category. They really should have, you know.
I go back and forth on this "losses" thing. On the one hand, I do understand that it's contrary to the usual fantasy baseball scoring, and that some may feel it penalises pitchers on poor teams. On the other hand, it's a corollary of the "win" category (doesn't that reward pitchers on good teams?) and if a pitcher gets credit for his side scoring a lot of runs to win, shouldn't he be penalised for his side not scoring a lot of runs to lose? More accurately, shouldn't pitchers pitch to the scoreboard?
To take a real-life example: Roy Halladay last night lost the game for the Blue Jays. Although he was only charged with 3 ERs, there's no question that had he not allowed the Yankees to hit him hard and often, his team might have had a chance to get to Clemens/the bullpen. He cost his team that game, and so he cost Saxmania's Swingers points. Under the old system, I might actually have gained points for him despite him costing his team the game.
In other words, with losses as a penalty, your pitcher can be a liability - just like real life. I like that.
However, the points system can still be changed at this late stage. I'd be tempted to bump IP back up to 3 points to re-balance the pitchers' value, but I don't think there's any harm in waiting a little while.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
i won't beat a dead horse on this sax, you kow how i feel and i accept your decisions cause i kow they're well thought out and you encourage feedback, but for the record, my position has not changed..
it's a philisophical difference here.. in baseball you acrue points for positive contributions... there is no mechanism in the game that deducts points from any player for not making a positive impact...
the current configuration in this league, penalizes only pitchers clearly diminishing their value in comparison to position players... position playes don't lose .5 pts for a swing and a miss, but pitchers who's only chance to contribute comes once a week could stand to subtract 5 whole points from his team's score, or 2 if he's closer...
i just think it strays away too far from the actual game imho... since in fanatsy baseball teams wins are determined directly by stats, or positive contributions, it's like instead of just giving pedro a loss, under this league's configuration you would have to subtract a win from the red sox if he lost... but in real baseball positive contributions are awarded value as players accrue stats or teams wins, but there is no mechanism that subtracts stats or wins from players or teams...
but like i said sax, i won't beat a dead horse.... :D either way you're still doing a damn fine job and you have my full support... :smokin:
#1PaFan
04-01-03, 01:14 PM
Agreed Kurt.
Bozidar
04-01-03, 01:35 PM
for the record, i wasn't petitioning a rules change, just an explanation.
While i somewhat agree with Kurty.. i feel it's too late in the game to change.
We'll learn, and adjust for next year.. no problem here.
I agree, that losing points for a loss is tough...you already get creamed on hits and earned runs, then lose 5 for the loss...and for a relief pitcher you could get a blown save AND a loss....
patrick.o
04-01-03, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Ansky39
but pitchers who's only chance to contribute comes once a week could stand to subtract 5 whole points from his team's score, or 2 if he's closer...
Or, as Big E pointed out, he can get a -5 and a - 2 because he blows the save and loses the game. Then factor in that if he blew the save and lost the game he must have given up runs, right? And probably hits and walks?
So you can have a guy like Mike DeJean go out and blow the save and lose the game, giving up 4 ER, 3H and 2BB, and yes, you too can lose 13 points at a time. DeJean could very easily make 3 more appearances this week and get 3 saves and still not get back to 0. That's a tad harsh, no?
I'm not lobbying to change the rules either, but I have to admit, after seeing what can happen first hand I might be inclined to jump on the change the rules bandwagon if one goes rolling by!
And I don't mean to be a pest, but what's the deal with the BLK and WP categories? Were those late add-ons that I missed?
Saxmania
04-02-03, 04:07 AM
Yes. It was suggested by another forumer (forget who at the moment) and adopted, since both events cause runners to move up at the fault of the pitcher.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
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