2010 Brett Gardner Performance Thread [Archive] - Page 3

JSG

04-20-10, 07:31 PM

I'd love to hear you explain this one.

i have no idea, but from headbanging discussions with an anti-nick friend of mine, it may be ......

-- OBP is for pussies, real men go for SLG
-- frustration at nick's slump, in particular the slew of recent non-swinging Ks
-- nostalgia for damon and matsui, each of whom nick replaced in part, and
-- nick's production when not on the DL is a mirage as he'll wind up there soon

needless to say, none of these survive in the cool light of day, but those are the only threads of quasi-coherence i can muster.

ThePinStripes

04-20-10, 07:41 PM

I didn't say I thought Gardner should bat 2nd because I don't, I said Johnson should bat 9th because I think he's useless

lol what?

MLB007

04-20-10, 10:13 PM

So instead, they sign Nick "The Iron Horse" Johnson?

Are you new to the Yankees? They signed Johnson AFTER Matsui signed.

MLB007

04-20-10, 10:15 PM

bada bing. bada boom.

Not like they'll hear it anyway. :D

teknetic

04-20-10, 10:37 PM

I'd love to hear you explain this one.

I'd rather he not. My brain can't handle all the dumb.

grizy

04-21-10, 08:53 AM

Gardner stunk up the joint so I'll keep it short today.

After going 0-3, Gardner's OBP went down to a much more pedestrian .410.

103OPS+
132WRC+

Don Wrigley

04-21-10, 08:58 AM

Gardner stunk up the joint so I'll keep it short today.

After going 0-3, Gardner's OBP went down to a much more pedestrian .410.

103OPS+
132WRC+

Serious Question: does wRC take into account stolen bases and/or defense? You would think that a stat that takes those two things into account would be much better for evaluating Gardner, since he could obviously have a low SLG but many of his singles turn into doubles (and as such, his wRC would generally be higher than his OPS)

OldYankeeFan

04-21-10, 09:03 AM

Serious Question: does wRC take into account stolen bases and/or defense? wRC+ takes into account Stolen bases and CS and is much better to measure offensive production and compare offensive players with different skill sets than OPS+. It is an offensive stat so no, itdoesn't take defense into consideration.

grizy

04-21-10, 09:03 AM

LazyEyeLou

04-21-10, 09:43 AM

WRC doesn't touch defense but it accounts for SBs and CSs.

I still think it undervalues Gardner because he's so extreme. His mere presence probably makes the life of whoever is in the box easier (read free balls and distracted pitchers). That and extreme type players have a tendency to be true outliers who aren't just (un)lucky.

All OFs with a minimum of 30PAs ranked by wOBA (that's the equivalent of OPS in OPS+)

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=30&type=1&season=2010&month=0

Gardner, for now, ranks 28 out of 102.

And look at Grandy in 13th.

I have to keep telling myself that even though wOBA is on a similar scale to OBP, it's only partially related. I keep having thoughts like "how can Gardner's wOBA possibly be .371 when his OBP is .410???"

parkerstrong

04-21-10, 09:49 AM

WRC doesn't touch defense but it accounts for SBs and CSs.

I still think it undervalues Gardner because he's so extreme. His mere presence probably makes the life of whoever is in the box easier (read free balls and distracted pitchers). That and extreme type players have a tendency to be true outliers who aren't just (un)lucky.

All OFs with a minimum of 30PAs ranked by wOBA (that's the equivalent of OPS in OPS+)

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=30&type=1&season=2010&month=0

Gardner, for now, ranks 28 out of 102.

Will be interesting to see how this season goes but so far Austin Jackson is 24th and Granderson is 13th. If they are that close when the season ends, it would seem to me that Detriot got the better end of that deal.

I've really liked what Gardner has done this year so far....working the count, stealing bases and causing havoc. I doubt he finishes with an OBP over .400, but would be really happy if his OBP is above .370 when the season ends

LazyEyeLou

04-21-10, 09:56 AM

Will be interesting to see how this season goes but so far Austin Jackson is 24th and Granderson is 13th. If they are that close when the season ends, it would seem to me that Detriot got the better end of that deal.

Yeah but look at the strikeout rate. Grandy is at 18%, while A-Jax is at 34%. One thing we definitely don't need in our lineup is a guy who makes the most unproductive out possible a third of the time.

But good for Jackson for getting off to a nice start. He's playing a nice CF too, if you believe the early UZR totals.

Yankee Tripper

04-21-10, 10:25 AM

That was a nice sac bunt he put down. Almost beat it out too.

parkerstrong

04-21-10, 11:27 AM

Yeah but look at the strikeout rate. Grandy is at 18%, while A-Jax is at 34%. One thing we definitely don't need in our lineup is a guy who makes the most unproductive out possible a third of the time.

But good for Jackson for getting off to a nice start. He's playing a nice CF too, if you believe the early UZR totals.

While Granderson did strikeout alot last year (141) and its early for Jackson this year I believe we made the right choice. I highly doubt Jackson will be that high when the season ends

JSG

04-21-10, 03:01 PM

brett's a solid baserunner, but i'd like to see him add this to his repertoire ........

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Superman-leap-makes-Fordham-player-a-viral-video?urn=mlb,235668

grizy

04-21-10, 03:08 PM

GordonGecko

04-21-10, 03:15 PM

Here you go...

<object width="560" height="440"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RW0bb2wxH5Y"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RW0bb2wxH5Y" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="440"></embed></object>

Is it a legal play or not to jump over the catcher?

Axon

04-21-10, 04:03 PM

Uh, I believe Willie Mays Hayes jumped over the catcher in Major League or Major League 2. Jeeeeeez.

DEADSOX

04-21-10, 04:14 PM

roblyo33

04-21-10, 04:45 PM

If The Mick were alive today, he may have a comment, similar to his assessment of Wade Boggs hitting style, regarding GGBG. I agree that once he gets on base, he is fun to watch but, watching him attempt to hit ML pitching is not fun.

grizy

04-21-10, 05:16 PM

He was only safe because the catcher chickened out and ducked.

89FoxBody

04-21-10, 05:56 PM

Reminds me of what Swisher did last year, came out of his slide and somersaulted over the 2nd baseman and onto the bag.

JSG

04-21-10, 06:00 PM

Reminds me of what Swisher did last year, came out of his slide and somersaulted over the 2nd baseman and onto the bag.

........... he also did this in RF a few times ........ :) ..........

delv

04-21-10, 11:34 PM

Brett the Gritman Gardner with the clutch 2-out RBI.

JSG

04-22-10, 12:07 AM

Brett the Gritman Gardner with the clutch 2-out RBI.

H-U-G-E. what a superb start for gardner. BIG hit.

OldYankeeFan

04-22-10, 12:21 AM

H-U-G-E. what a superb start for gardner. BIG hit. Totally took that 3-1 pitch and then getting the big hit on the 3-2 count. Well done. On base 3/4, another good night.

grizy

04-22-10, 12:22 AM

Dude from Texas might be more right than we thought.

THEBOSS84

04-22-10, 12:24 AM

.333/.442/.333

parkerstrong

04-22-10, 06:16 AM

themgmt

04-22-10, 06:22 AM

.333/.442/.333
<table class="tablehead" style="margin-bottom: 0px;" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td>
</td><td>
</td><td>
</td><td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>.119/.245/.143

stazsanity

04-22-10, 07:52 AM

probably going to sit against the (nasty) lefty Braden today, but hell of a game last night for Gardy

delv

04-22-10, 08:19 AM

Really impressed-he looks comfortable at the plate.

Makes you wonder why pitchers ever walk him because of his speed and because he doesn't have any extra base hits yet. As the season progresses I would expect pitchers to start challenging him more often.

This is where the "major league pitchers won't walk him argument" fails. It presumes that all major league pitchers can throw a strike whenever they want to.

JavyVazquezIsSick

04-22-10, 08:22 AM

<TABLE class=tablehead style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD>

</TD><TD>

</TD><TD>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>.119/.245/.143

Only took the Yankees 4 years to realize he shouldn't be out there anymore.

Thank God we have Brett now.

OldYankeeFan

04-22-10, 08:37 AM

This is where the "major league pitchers won't walk him argument" fails. It presumes that all major league pitchers can throw a strike whenever they want to.I agree. His Zone % (ratio of pitches inside the strike zone) of 51% is right about his career avg, so I don't see a lot changing there. And Brett is looking more comfortable taking and then hitting with two strikes, his last AB being a good example. He takes a 3-1 pitch for strike two before lining a hit to LF. He keeps doing that and he's going to get his share of BBs.

ppa79

04-22-10, 08:51 AM

Will be interesting to see how this season goes but so far Austin Jackson is 24th and Granderson is 13th. If they are that close when the season ends, it would seem to me that Detriot got the better end of that deal.

I've really liked what Gardner has done this year so far....working the count, stealing bases and causing havoc. I doubt he finishes with an OBP over .400, but would be really happy if his OBP is above .370 when the season ends

I don't think they will be that close by the end of the season. AJ's K's are really starting to pile up.

JSG

04-22-10, 09:28 AM

probably going to sit against the (nasty) lefty Braden today, but hell of a game last night for Gardy

i would keep him in for D and he has decent splits. no thames in LF for sure, and no way you give winn two starts in a row. so i would leave brett in for sure and maybe DH thames.

delv

04-22-10, 09:50 AM

joe could also sit Granderson, though Curtis has really quelled my concerns about his probs with lefties

stazsanity

04-22-10, 09:53 AM

joe could also sit Granderson, though Curtis has really quelled my concerns about his probs with lefties

I dont' want him to sit Gardner, I was just more thinking out loud than anything else...

Hellsing

04-22-10, 10:05 AM

Once he starts knocking some more doubles his slg might shoot up over 400. I'd flip.

BennyTheJetRodriguez

04-22-10, 10:09 AM

Thames should really just rotate between those 3 lefties (Gardner, Granderson, Johnson...mostly Gardner and Granderson) to give them all rest here and there and get himself some ABs. It shouldn't be a straight platoon with any of the three.

THEBOSS84

04-22-10, 10:21 AM

I don't think they will be that close by the end of the season. AJ's K's are really starting to pile up.

I think it may be time to change the avatar.

OldYankeeFan

04-22-10, 10:23 AM

I think it may be time to change the avatar.And maybe the signature while he's at it as well. I like IPK but...

MLB007

04-22-10, 11:23 AM

Really impressed-he looks comfortable at the plate.

Makes you wonder why pitchers ever walk him because of his speed and because he doesn't have any extra base hits yet. As the season progresses I would expect pitchers to start challenging him more often.

I think you answered your own question. NO pitcher is going to CHOOSE to walk a #9 hitter with great speed with the top of the order coming.
He has a good and developing eye and he covers the plate well.
Pitchers hardly ever walk someone on purpose.

MLB007

04-22-10, 11:24 AM

////////////

MLB007

04-22-10, 11:26 AM

i would keep him in for D and he has decent splits. no thames in LF for sure, and no way you give winn two starts in a row. so i would leave brett in for sure and maybe DH thames.

Joe said after Sundays game that they consider Brett an every day player.
I think he's very quickly putting the platoon idea to rest.
With his speed, you've just got to want him in there everyday.

MLB007

04-22-10, 11:34 AM

I was thinking the same thing!

ewww, you guys were thinking about his pubes!! :D

stazsanity

04-22-10, 12:30 PM

Gardy gets the start today, batting 9th and playing CF (Granderson gets the day off, Thames in left)

Per LOHUD:

Derek Jeter SS
Nick Johnson 1B
Mark Teixeira DH
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Nick Swisher RF
Marcus Thames LF
Francisco Cervelli C
Brett Gardner CF

OldYankeeFan

04-22-10, 12:41 PM

Joe said after Sundays game that they consider Brett an every day player.
I think he's very quickly putting the platoon idea to rest.
With his speed, you've just got to want him in there everyday.Nice, that didn't take very long. Seems like Joe had his in-season tryouts and Gardner will be an everyday player with Thames getting his ABs aginst LH pitching by rotating thru multiple people. Winn will sit on the bench and be on blowout duty only until he shows he can catch up to an 88 mph FB.

delv

04-22-10, 12:44 PM

grizy

04-22-10, 12:50 PM

Update on Gardner's line after Wednesday night:
.333BA/SLG
.442OBP
.775OPS
122OPS+
149WRC+

Interestingly, -0.7UZR. ButI am guessing that's pretty much all that throw to the dugout.

JSG

04-22-10, 12:55 PM

Joe said after Sundays game that they consider Brett an every day player.
I think he's very quickly putting the platoon idea to rest.
With his speed, you've just got to want him in there everyday.

per delv, i hadn't heard this either, but it certainly makes sense. winn is showing close to worthless, and thames in LF makes me nervous. i want brett in there most of the time if only for his D, but he's gone way beyond that and has shown he deserves a legit shot to develop. the slap happy thing still makes me wary, but i trust he keeps working on his swing, and that was a lovely hit in the 9th last nite. i'm not sure he's in like flint as most of our other starters, but he should get most of the starts in LF for sure.

PS interesting tweak by girardi today. i had assumed thames DH brett LF, but swapping nick and tex is a nice twist -- shake things up without sitting either slumping hitter. i just hope thames in LF is not a mistake.

THEBOSS84

04-22-10, 12:56 PM

Update on Gardner's line after Wednesday night:
.333BA/SLG
.442OBP
.775OPS
122OPS+
149WRC+

Interestingly, -0.7UZR. ButI am guessing that's pretty much all that throw to the dugout.

If he can keep this up over a full season (or come close), he'd literally be saving the Yankees $70M+, assuming they have real interest in Crawford. I can't state enough how important his year is to the Yankee's payroll going forward.

NYYRules#1

04-22-10, 12:59 PM

If he can keep this up over a full season (or come close), he'd literally be saving the Yankees $70M+, assuming they have real interest in Crawford. I can't state enough how important his year is to the Yankee's payroll going forward.

He won't quite keep up these numbers, obviously, but I do believe that if he has a .360+ OBP, he could easily save us the money we'd spend on Crawford.

JavyVazquezIsSick

04-22-10, 01:04 PM

I wouldn't touch Crawford with a 50 foot pole if Gardner has a .360+ OBP.

teknetic

04-22-10, 01:05 PM

I wouldn't touch Crawford regardless of how well Gardner performs.

gold23

04-22-10, 01:41 PM

I wouldn't touch Crawford with a 50 foot pole if Gardner has a .360+ OBP.

Absolutely agreed. Crawford's a really nice player (he's nowhere near great) who is going to get paid much better than his value. Plus, he'll get a deal where the back end is almost assuredly going to be terrible value considering he is a speed guy with injury history.

stazsanity

04-22-10, 01:42 PM

I wouldn't touch Crawford regardless of how well Gardner performs.

Yup...there seems to be a funny correlation between increasing age and decreasing speed... something about giving 6-7 years to a guy that'll turn 30 in the first year of his new contract seems counter-productive.

stazsanity

04-22-10, 01:45 PM

Absolutely agreed. Crawford's a really nice player (he's nowhere near great) who is going to get paid much better than his value. Plus, he'll get a deal where the back end is almost assuredly going to be terrible value considering he is a speed guy with injury history.

...can't wait for boston to sign him and put him in left field, hence negating 1/2 of his value as an above average fielder(15.8UZR in 08', 17.6 in 09') and sticking him next to that wall 81 games a year. Jacoby is, after all, their future.

JSG

04-22-10, 01:51 PM

He won't quite keep up these numbers, obviously, but I do believe that if he has a .360+ OBP, he could easily save us the money we'd spend on Crawford.

what about a legit bopper such as werth ??

OldYankeeFan

04-22-10, 01:54 PM

Update on Gardner's line after Wednesday night:
.333BA/SLG
.442OBP
.775OPS
122OPS+
149WRC+
Impressive stats to start the season indeed. A few more stats that might impress...

K %
2008 23.6
2009 16.1
2010 11.1

BB %
2008 5.7
2009 9.2
2010 13.6

GB/FB
2008 1.36
2009 1.49
2010 5.75

Nice progressions. He may not continue at his present 2010 level, but clearly he has progressed yet again. In addition it looks like his important MiLB #s are starting to translate at the MLB level as well.

His swing is still pretty ugly but he has made some adjustmnts (previously discussed) and he drastically reduced those weak 130 ft popups to LF/3B and replaces them with GBs. Going from a 1.49 to a 5.75 GB/FB ratio is an insane progression, and even if he can't keep all of it, I've got to believe he'll keep some of it, improving himself and his value to the team once again.

OldYankeeFan

04-22-10, 01:59 PM

what about a legit bopper such as werth ?? With Jesus coming I don't think he's really needed. I'd rather save the money AND L/T comittment for pitching and keep the cost controlled Gardner.

JSG

04-22-10, 02:39 PM

With Jesus coming I don't think he's really needed. I'd rather save the money AND L/T comittment for pitching and keep the cost controlled Gardner.

HELLELUJAH !!!!!!!!!!!

saints be praised, and all things being equal, i agree with you !!! cheers

flymick24

04-22-10, 05:22 PM

gardner just needs to keep it up until july when the yankees can package him with joba in a deal to get us lance berkman and roy oswalt

BambinoCagna

04-22-10, 06:35 PM

With as good as this team has started I feel like we would be that much better with brett in the 1 hole and jeter 2. Wish it would happen but will probably never happen.

roblyo33

04-22-10, 06:37 PM

With as good as this team has started I feel like we would be that much better with brett in the 1 hole and jeter 2. Wish it would happen but will probably never happen.

Really??

BambinoCagna

04-22-10, 06:39 PM

he changes the game when he gets on base. He is instantly in scoring position with his stolen bases and gets pitchers rattled right off the bat.

delv

04-22-10, 07:04 PM

he changes the game when he gets on base. He is instantly in scoring position with his stolen bases and gets pitchers rattled right off the bat.

Jeter has a career OBP of 400, and NJ an OBP over 400. BG hasn't even had 600 ML PAs. slow your roll, bambino.

False1

04-22-10, 07:27 PM

With as good as this team has started I feel like we would be that much better with brett in the 1 hole and jeter 2. Wish it would happen but will probably never happen.I disagree. Was a huge advocate since 2008 to push Jeter to the top of the lineup and Damon to the 2 hole. Jeter has .400 OBP capability, can get into scoring position on his own with his pop and his baserunning skills, and hitting him first diminishes his risk of GIDP. Johnson wouldn't shock me if he put up .420+ OBP.

People have an impression that a leadoff hitter needs to be a slappy guy with blazing speed to be effective. If Gardner shows a sustained ability to get on base over 40% of the time, then he's made a case to move up the lineup.

delv

04-22-10, 07:31 PM

I disagree. Was a huge advocate since 2008 to push Jeter to the top of the lineup and Damon to the 2 hole. Jeter has .400 OBP capability, can get into scoring position on his own with his pop and his baserunning skills, and hitting him first diminishes his risk of GIDP. Johnson wouldn't shock me if he put up .420+ OBP.

People have an impression that a leadoff hitter needs to be a slappy guy with blazing speed to be effective. If Gardner shows a sustained ability to get on base over 40% of the time, then he's made a case to move up the lineup.

yeah, this is only true if everyone on your team sucks. if no one on your team hits well, then its important that, when someone gets on, that they be able to score on extra base hits (by being fast), and be followed by guys who can drive them in (with a good BA and/or good SLG).

but ultimately, the best is having lots of guys who can get on base, period.

roblyo33

04-22-10, 07:57 PM

GGBG is where he belongs in the lineup.

Yankee Tripper

04-22-10, 09:52 PM

GGBG is where he belongs in the lineup.Agreed. I like him there. Very disruptive. I liked the bunt attempt today. even if it was a crappy attempt that was way foul. Would love to see him put that in the 3B mind. Was shocked to see him hit in to a DP though. Guess even the fastest guys can get double up on that.

Rocketman

04-22-10, 10:04 PM

A high OBP is not only essential because the #1 and #2 men should be on so that there is someone for the #3, #4 and #5 guys to drive in. Even more important than "being on base" is not getting out. Another way of looking at OBP is that it is the rate of "not getting out."

Nick Johnson and Derek Jeter are much better at "not getting out" than Brett Gardner. Thus, they're at the top of the lineup and Gardner is not.

delv

04-22-10, 11:32 PM

According to fangraphs, BG has 4 flyballs and 5 linedrives on the season. Loooooooool. :lol: :roflmao:

I will never trust fangraphs again.

ajra21

04-23-10, 03:44 PM

Jeter has a career OBP of 400, and NJ an OBP over 400. BG hasn't even had 600 ML PAs. slow your roll, bambino.

actually, derek's career OBP is .388 and nick's is .401.

Jerkface

04-23-10, 05:55 PM

According to fangraphs, BG has 4 flyballs and 5 linedrives on the season. Loooooooool. :lol: :roflmao:

I will never trust fangraphs again.

All of his opposite field hits were line drives, by virtue of their flying on a line to the outfield before hitting the ground.

What are you, retarded?

delv

04-23-10, 06:24 PM

All of his opposite field hits were line drives, by virtue of their flying on a line to the outfield before hitting the ground.

What are you, retarded?

Would you really consider a hit that falls in front of an OF a flyball? I wouldn't.

Also, not all of his oppo hits have been linedrives at all. Probably half. The other half bounced before leaving the infield...

jerkface.

JSG

04-24-10, 12:15 AM

great double, SB, but the game turned on his ill-advised bunt at a pitch a foot high. oh well.

grizy

04-24-10, 02:03 AM

The way he's hitting he should just show bunt without actually bunting IMO.

Gardner's line this year so far:

.310BA
.333SLG
.420OBP (wtf? second highest among starters, behind just ARod's .437. OBP Jesus is at .375)
.753OPS
8SB (on pace to get about 80)
10R (on pace for about 100)
141WRC+ (.383wOBA, 22 among qualified OFs, ahead of Damon, Granderson, Upton, and Torii Hunter, at least for now)

Meanwhile, he's scrapping by with MLB minimum.

ajra21

04-24-10, 07:41 AM

how long will he last though?

JSG

04-24-10, 10:14 AM

gold23

04-24-10, 10:52 AM

via lohud, gardner may have been bunting on his own:

• Bad bunt attempt by Brett Gardner in the sixth inning. Gardner said it was a pitch up, which explains why he couldn’t get it down. He should have let it go for a ball. “He was bunting for a hit,” Girardi said. “Problem was, the pitch was up.”

Never a worse spot to bunt for a hit...when the corners are breathing on you. I think he was probably sac bunting on his own, hoping he could beat it out.

OldYankeeFan

04-24-10, 02:00 PM

Never a worse spot to bunt for a hit...when the corners are breathing on you. I think he was probably sac bunting on his own, hoping he could beat it out.My thoughts exactly, Especially 3B where most of his batted balls have been going. His % chance for getting a GB past the 3B with him pulled that far in had to go up signuficantly. Dumb move. Please take advantage of the D next time Brett.

roblyo33

04-24-10, 02:02 PM

Does Brett have ADD??

grizy

04-24-10, 02:25 PM

Girardi is batting Gardner 2nd tonight.

I am hoping harder than ever Gardner can keep it up.

The way he's going about his business right now, I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm gonna go out on a limb too here and say something I just about never say about anybody.

I think Gardner's ceiling is Ichiro! with more speed, better d, and less power.

Basically he'll be even more Ichiro! than Ichiro!, if everything works out.

ajra21

04-24-10, 02:48 PM

ichiro?

GordonGecko

04-24-10, 03:22 PM

Brett could become an Ichiro but he's going to have to figure out his MLB swing on a consistent basis

grizy

04-24-10, 03:23 PM

Ichiro!.

delv

04-24-10, 04:54 PM

that pull triple and that hard liner up the middle is what I like to see. that is what says "full-time player" to me... if he can do that on a semi-consistent basis.

NYYDragoon

04-24-10, 04:54 PM

that pull triple and that hard liner up the middle is what I like to see. that is what says "full-time player" to me.I second this.

THEBOSS84

04-24-10, 04:59 PM

.834 OPS through nearly a month in, to go along with stellar defense and leading the lead in steals? MONEY.

NYYDragoon

04-24-10, 05:00 PM

.834 OPS through nearly a month in, to go along with stellar defense and leading the lead in steals? MONEY.Better than trailing the lead!

THEBOSS84

04-24-10, 05:02 PM

Better than trailing the lead!

Damn.

BambinoCagna

04-24-10, 05:02 PM

Brett is so dangerous in the top of the lineup. I love it.

b_joseph

04-24-10, 05:03 PM

I'd like to see the Yanks keep Gardner in the 2 hole for a while and drop NJ to 9. I like the idea of having speed at the 1-2 positions. Worked with Jeter and Damon and Brett takes it (speed and ability to steal) to another level.On paper it would be awesome but Brett has to show he can get on base consistently for a little while longer.

That being said, you can afford to take that chance now. As it is only April/May.

grizy

04-24-10, 05:04 PM

I had high expectations for Gardner before the season started.

He's so far crushed them.

teknetic

04-24-10, 05:06 PM

.834 OPS through nearly a month in, to go along with stellar defense and leading the lead in steals? MONEY.

Two months with a .900+ OPS and one .830 (so far)

NYYDragoon

04-24-10, 05:08 PM

Another hit. I'm lovin' it.

SLURPEE

04-24-10, 05:09 PM

I'd like to see the Yanks keep Gardner in the 2 hole for a while and drop NJ to 9. I like the idea of having speed at the 1-2 positions. Worked with Jeter and Damon and Brett takes it (speed and ability to steal) to another level. Hopefully Brett can have an OBP close to Damon's.

What's good about Gardner batting second is he will see alot of fastballs batting ahead of Teixeira. Which is key because I've noticed teams are throwing him a steady diet of curves.
I'm not even going to mention his speed. We know what he can bring when he's on the bases.

I really don't get the folks that want Nick Johnson batting that high in the lineup. That's where I think stats cloud peoples judgement.

I've heard things on the line of 'who cares if he's slow. you don't want him running when Teixeira and Arod are up'

Nonsense. That's playing the game 'lets sit back and wait for the 3 run homer'.

Gardner imo is a good option for batting second.

NYYDragoon

04-24-10, 05:10 PM

9 stolen bases. God, we haven't had a guy like this in some time.

PirateChief

04-24-10, 05:10 PM

What is in his drinking water...

BambinoCagna

04-24-10, 05:11 PM

He just made that run right there. Bret the Jet is a difference maker in the 1 and 2 hole.

yankeefan122

04-24-10, 05:17 PM

Gardner is really having a great season so far. I'm curious what the "experts" that do the PECOTA projections had him at.

JohnnyEllis

04-24-10, 05:23 PM

You'd hate to play against him.

kan_t

04-24-10, 05:30 PM

Ichiro!.
Gardner can be the next Ichiro without the bat control (batting average) and arm.

grizy

04-24-10, 05:40 PM

I was just correcting the spelling.

Assuming he doesn't get another PA

BA: .340
SLeG(ging): .404
OBP: .429
OPS: .833
SB: 9 (AL leading, for now)

His SLG isn't really slugging... it's more like legging...

yankeefan122

04-24-10, 05:56 PM

Gardner can be the next Ichiro without the bat control (batting average) and arm.

Plus Ichiro's done it 9 straight years and is one of the all time great OFers defensively.

However Gardner doesn't need to be Ichiro. He's doing fine

kan_t

04-24-10, 06:02 PM

Plus Ichiro's done it 9 straight years and is one of the all time great OFers defensively.

However Gardner doesn't need to be Ichiro. He's doing fine
This.

mr.roy

04-24-10, 06:06 PM

After all, how can he be? um........grasshopper.

cyhughes22

04-24-10, 06:24 PM

The Ichiro comparisons are a bit much because Ichiro is going to march straight into the hall of fame but Brett is doing a very very nice job right now. If he can hit near .300 for us all year he's going to be one hell of a weapon.

mr.roy

04-24-10, 06:29 PM

Something like this..........................................
makes a case for dropping NJ lower in the order.

JSG

04-24-10, 06:39 PM

Gardner can be the next Ichiro without the bat control (batting average) and arm.

Ichiro Lite !!

wow, what a great FFFFFF ing game from brett, including the throw. he's just been awesome. brett, phil and cano in the 5 spot all great so far. now nick and javy need to come around. then we might just be off the charts.

GordonGecko

04-24-10, 06:41 PM

Something like this..........................................
makes a case for dropping NJ lower in the order.
How about 10th? Worked out great today

Rocketman

04-24-10, 06:42 PM

Something like this..........................................
makes a case for dropping NJ lower in the order.

I doubt he can sustain this level of performance. You're seeing Nick Johnson at his worst and Brett Gardner at the best he's ever been.

JDPNYY

04-24-10, 06:46 PM

Negative energy is not helpful.

mr.roy

04-24-10, 06:46 PM

I doubt he can sustain this level of performance. You're seeing Nick Johnson at his worst and Brett Gardner at the best he's ever been.

So why not go with it?
Actually I've been wondering why Grandy hasn't been batting 2nd the last 4-5 games.
Anyway, Brett will do for now.

GordonGecko

04-24-10, 06:52 PM

I doubt he can sustain this level of performance. You're seeing Nick Johnson at his worst and Brett Gardner at the best he's ever been.
You're assuming Brett is playing above his ability, when I'll argue that most guys here never even gave the guy a chance to prove himself. So far so good this season, keep it up

yankeefan122

04-24-10, 06:59 PM

You're assuming Brett is playing above his ability, when I'll argue that most guys here never even gave the guy a chance to prove himself. So far so good this season, keep it up

I agree and that's the one annoying thing with critics of certain players. Instead of giving a guy credit for playing well they just say that he's playing over his head.

As if they're waiting for him to slump just so they can prove their point.

I don't think anyone thinks Gardner will hit over .340 with an OBP of .430, but he's doing great and it's nice to see.

He is proving that he can be an every day major leaguer. Many people were convinced that Gardner did not belong in the majors at all.

dabomb2045

04-24-10, 07:08 PM

If he can hit around .280 and have an OBP of at least .350-.360....he can steal 80-90 bases easy. Combine that with his defense....and you have a productive #9 hitter and LF'er.

BroadwayBomber55

04-24-10, 07:16 PM

As long as Brett Gardner is solid and steady with the bat and a energy speedster in both defense and baserunning, that's fine with me.

R.V.47

04-24-10, 07:20 PM

Brett put on a show today. It was nice to see him drive the ball too.

89FoxBody

04-24-10, 07:36 PM

If he can sneak the ball in the corner like that all year, he is going to have a great year.

LazyEyeLou

04-24-10, 08:12 PM

What's good about Gardner batting second is he will see alot of fastballs batting ahead of Teixeira. Which is key because I've noticed teams are throwing him a steady diet of curves.
I'm not even going to mention his speed. We know what he can bring when he's on the bases.

I really don't get the folks that want Nick Johnson batting that high in the lineup. That's where I think stats cloud peoples judgement.

I've heard things on the line of 'who cares if he's slow. you don't want him running when Teixeira and Arod are up'

Nonsense. That's playing the game 'lets sit back and wait for the 3 run homer'.

Gardner imo is a good option for batting second.

That's the best argument I've heard yet for batting Brett 2nd. If it can markedly improve his BA (and hence OBP) due to more fastballs, there's an argument to be made.

At the same time, Johnson's going to improve, and I do think there's something to be said for having a guy that can walk an awful lot and hopefully hit for a decent average in that 2 hole. And though I agree with the second part of your post, that I hate the philosophy of waiting for the 3 run homer, it is true that the position directly in front of Teixeira and A-Rod is the one where we need speed the least.

At the end of the day, if Brett can be counted on to get on base on his own at a decent clip, the spot ahead of Jeter is ideal. It puts a ton of pressure on the pitcher when he needs to focus on a really rocky part of our lineup. He was fantastic in the 2-hole today, but I imagine he'll be back to 9th for the long run, and it'll be a good call.

LazyEyeLou

04-24-10, 08:23 PM

All of the above is irrelevant, of course, if NJ is hurt for most of the season. In that case, we might see Swish in the 2-spot.

Rocketman

04-24-10, 08:30 PM

If he can hit around .280 and have an OBP of at least .350-.360....he can steal 80-90 bases easy. Combine that with his defense....and you have a productive #9 hitter and LF'er.

80-90 bases EASY? There's optimism and then there's just sheer lunacy.

LazyEyeLou

04-24-10, 08:37 PM

80-90 bases EASY? There's optimism and then there's just sheer lunacy.

Season is 1/10th over and he's on pace for 90. But I agree, I wouldn't call it easy. Definitely possible though.

Rocketman

04-24-10, 08:44 PM

Season is 1/10th over and he's on pace for 90. But I agree, I wouldn't call it easy. Definitely possible though.

The baseball season is very long. Players get tired. They get hurt. There's a reason no player has stolen 80 bases since 1988. 80-90 easy?

ieddyi

04-24-10, 09:50 PM

He already has scuffled with his swing to start the season and was still very valuable.

Now it looks like his swing is getting grooved

Forget Crawford- use that 12M towards getting Lee next year

Rocketman

04-24-10, 10:40 PM

He already has scuffled with his swing to start the season and was still very valuable.

Now it looks like his swing is getting grooved

Forget Crawford- use that 12M towards getting Lee next year

Crawford would be a completely idiotic purchase, and he would definitely cost more than $12 million per season for a team like the Yankees. Let's not also forget: because the Yankees exceed the luxury cap, every marginally dollar past the (annually rising) soft limit is charged 40% more. Considering that, Crawford is almost certainly no bargain.

Dave B

04-24-10, 11:07 PM

If he can hit around .280 and have an OBP of at least .350-.360....he can steal 80-90 bases easy. Combine that with his defense....and you have a productive #9 hitter and LF'er.

Brett Gardner at a league average OBP is a net positive, even a weapon, given his speed and defense. Anything above that - let alone nearly ONE HUNDRED points higher - is just plain awesome.

ajra21

04-25-10, 04:21 AM

Brett Gardner at a league average OBP is a net positive, even a weapon, given his speed and defense. Anything above that - let alone nearly ONE HUNDRED points higher - is just plain awesome.

so right. he's hitting .340 with a .436 OBP! hell, he's slugging .404 which is far more than i'd expect. i doubt he keep these numbers going but even if that OBP drops 60-70 points, he's gonna be better than a lot of 9th hole hitters.

parkerstrong

04-25-10, 05:58 AM

He already has scuffled with his swing to start the season and was still very valuable.

Now it looks like his swing is getting grooved

Forget Crawford- use that 12M towards getting Lee next year

I'm with you-Crawford isn't needed with Gardner here-bring up Montero for Nick Johnson and use that extra cash to replace Vazquez with Lee. 11.5 + 5.5=17million for Lee.

I know this is early, but who thinks Gardner will have a higher OBP than Crawford? Crawford is at .372 right now.....that will be interesting to watch (at least for me) the rest of this year.....

ajra21

04-25-10, 06:38 AM

$17m per year for lee? no thanks.

BronxBaumer

04-25-10, 07:56 AM

If I had my way, Montero would be our future left fielder, given the fact that he will likely not be a catcher. Screw Crawford and his future over-inflated salary.

TheHugeUnit2

04-25-10, 08:13 AM

Season is 1/10th over and he's on pace for 90. But I agree, I wouldn't call it easy. Definitely possible though.
He's also learning it looks like he doesn't know a lot of the RP moves and he can't get a good enough read to go. Within time he should be stealing more off the bullpen guys too or I hope so anyway.

OldYankeeFan

04-25-10, 08:33 AM

A few years ago some of us touted his MiLB stats as evidence that he should be called up...but there were the unbelievers who believed they would not translate.

Some of us combimed the above with his uncut series of progressions from his walk on days in college as evidence last year that he had a good chance at being more than a 4th OF...but there were the unbelievers.

Some of us believed going into this year that the combination of steady progessions and ability to figure out each level in which he played would in fact translate to MLB and he would have another progression this year over last years .345 OBP and wRC+ of 107...and there were the unbelievers.

As the unbelievers dwindle, I think it is now safe to say without dispute that Brett Gardner is more than a 4th outfielder.

I had what was thought to be here as "very high expectations" for Brett. So far he has BLOWN them away. Nice.

Yankees1962

04-25-10, 08:38 AM

Some of us have touted his and MiLB stats as evidence that he should be called up...but there were the unbelievers who believed they would not translate.

Some of us combimed the above with his uncut series of progressions from his walk on days in college as evidence last year that he had a good chance at being more than a 4th OF...but there were the unbelievers.

Some of us believed going into this year that the combination of steady progessions and ability to figure out each level in which he played would in fact translate to MLB and he would have another progression this year over last years .345 OBP and wRC+ of 107...and there were the unbelievers.

I think it is now safe to say without dispute that Brett Gardner is more than a 4th outfielder.

I had what was thought to be here as "very high expectations" for Brett. So far he has BLOWN them away. Nice.
I like Gardner, but I'm going to temper my comments until I see him do it over a long period of time. I want to see if he can improve his output of driving the ball on the appropriate pitches and become a little less tentative in his at-bats and when he's on base.

grizy

04-25-10, 08:58 AM

it's telling opposing pitchers aren't trying to overpower him anymore.

They are starting down and away and varying speeds to try to get him out. Gardner is making contact anyway.

This bodes very well for Gardner's future.

The Yankee Captain

04-25-10, 09:08 AM

7 Walks
5 K's

grizy

04-25-10, 09:17 AM

7 Walks
5 K's

That's better BB% and K% than ARod's career averages.

JSG

04-25-10, 10:38 AM

Brett put on a show today. It was nice to see him drive the ball too.

yes !!!! nice line shot (and huge hit for the insurance run) to left in oakland as well. if this guy gets his swing together he adds huge value and should be a fixture, not a place-holder.

JSG

04-25-10, 10:41 AM

If I had my way, Montero would be our future left fielder, given the fact that he will likely not be a catcher. Screw Crawford and his future over-inflated salary.

if brett keeps producing maybe he's the LFer. montero can DH and maybe catch a little, play LF a little.

delv

04-25-10, 11:01 AM

if brett keeps producing maybe he's the LFer. montero can DH and maybe catch a little, play LF a little.

They say Montero doesn't have the footspeed to play the OF, especially NYS LF (he'd be better in RF, maybe; he has good arm strength).

I look forward to a Jorge/Cervelli/Montero DH/C split. Between those two positions, there should be 1400 PAs.

550 (Montero), 500 (Jorge), 300 (Cervelli). give or take more or less depending on injury and who's hot.

and allow the other 50 to A-Rod or whoever else needs it.

ppa79

04-25-10, 11:04 AM

delv

04-25-10, 11:09 AM

If Montero hits like he is projected to hit, you will want him to get as many at bats as possible.

550 is a ton for a guy manning the C position. He has never had more than 569. like I said, though, give or take...

We should also want the guy with a career .860 OPS to get a ton of PAs, but I don't hear people saying that...; in fact, I constantly hear the opposite.

ppa79

04-25-10, 11:14 AM

550 is a ton for a guy manning the C position. He has never had more than 569. like I said, though, give or take...

We should also want the guy with a career .860 OPS to get a ton of PAs, but I don't hear people saying that...; in fact, I constantly hear the opposite.

Next year Jorge can get his at bats at DH, while Montero becomes the primary catcher.

OldYankeeFan

04-25-10, 11:22 AM

yes !!!! nice line shot (and huge hit for the insurance run) to left in oakland as well. if this guy gets his swing together he adds huge value and should be a fixture, not a place-holder.Spot on. And yesterday he had two swings that I actually thought were "pretty" swings by Brett, and you know I have also called his swing fugly. But those were the best two of the year so far. The type of swing he has been working on since '09 ST and slowly but surely perfecting. He's not there yet but he certainly looks like he HAS the capacity to get there, because the swing on both the triple AND the LD single up the middle -- 'is there".

This is getting exciting.

teknetic

04-25-10, 12:07 PM

Benched after a 3-hit game. Bleh.

OldYankeeFan

04-25-10, 12:17 PM

Benched after a 3-hit game. Bleh.I agree, but in fairness to Girardi, among the OFs, it is Gardners turn to "not start" as both Swisher and Granderson were non-starters within the last few games when Girardi started Thames against LH pitching. I guess he is comitted to that type of a rotation until Thames cools off.

CCBL BatBoy

04-25-10, 12:25 PM

Benched after a 3-hit game. Bleh.

Geez, let Jet play! His confidence is sky high and right now he is adding a lot to this team at bat, on the bases and in the field!

89FoxBody

04-25-10, 12:34 PM

Sorry but Thames hitting a HR every 3-4 games he plays against lefties is not worth the insane difference in defense and overall OBP skills and speed that Gardner offers.

Thames should be a late inning PH option only. I'm sick of seeing him in the field. Nothing against the guy obviously, but Brett is a better option IMO.

delv

04-25-10, 12:40 PM

will Brett get to play CF for real this season or no? I'm thinking he has a zero chance unless Curtis goes down w/ an injury. I used to think they might reevaluate in 2011, but, it loooks like, despite Curtis' problems with line-drives hit at him, he does cover a lot of ground. My only concern is that Brett has clearly looked less than comfortable in LF. He has definitely misread the spin on a lot of balls, having them spin away from him. Then again, who's to say that Curtis would play significantly better there?

JSG

04-25-10, 12:43 PM

..... And yesterday he had two swings that I actually thought were "pretty" swings by Brett, and you know I have also called his swing fugly....This is getting exciting.

I'm pretty much where you are on this. I was really glad we kept gardner over melky in the javy deal, but more on the theory he's the perfect 4th OFer, as i have also been somewhat skeptical about his swing. i always assumed we'd work something out with damon, and that would be that. but he's really been solid, and if he gets his swing together, he could exceed damon in value to the team. by his own admission he had not been happy with this swing -- 3 infield hits per game is nice but not likely to hold up long -term -- so it's nice to see him working things out.

PS i'm surprised to see him out of the lineup today. DH thames, brett LF batting second. brett's on a roll, and javy may need all the D help he can get !! cheers

JavyVazquezIsSick

04-25-10, 01:06 PM

I would have sat Curtis if you had to get Thames in there.

teknetic

04-25-10, 01:07 PM

Granderson already sat once this RT.

JavyVazquezIsSick

04-25-10, 01:24 PM

OK. I still would of sat him because of his struggles vs lefties.

MLB007

04-25-10, 01:26 PM

I had high expectations for Gardner before the season started.

He's so far crushed them.

+1 - better than I could have hoped. ;)

mr.roy

04-25-10, 01:29 PM

grizy

04-25-10, 02:09 PM

OK. I still would of sat him because of his struggles vs lefties.

What struggles?

BA doesn't tell everything but he's hitting .300 and only Ked once in 10PAs vs. lefties this season.

This is Girardi paying homage to his l/r/l/r bible.

I have no issues with this.

If Thames doesn't start against lefties he serves no purpose on the roster.

Gardner will start next time vs. a tough lefty instead of Granderson probably and still be on pace to get 500~550pas for the year.

parkerstrong

04-25-10, 02:36 PM

They say Montero doesn't have the footspeed to play the OF, especially NYS LF (he'd be better in RF, maybe; he has good arm strength).

I look forward to a Jorge/Cervelli/Montero DH/C split. Between those two positions, there should be 1400 PAs.

550 (Montero), 500 (Jorge), 300 (Cervelli). give or take more or less depending on injury and who's hot.

and allow the other 50 to A-Rod or whoever else needs it.

I have to agree....no space for Nick Johnson next year with Gardner this good. Montero/Posada 550 AB, Cervelli 150PA-Montero/Posada split C/DH duties and Cervelli doesn't play much unless an injury. I don't see why Cervelli should play all that much with those two ahead of him.....a day at DH is basically a day off.

siddiqi

04-25-10, 02:39 PM

They have a flyball pitcher on the mound and they put Thames in LF today. Javy is already struggling with issues so far, why handicap him more with a statue for an OF?

JavyVazquezIsSick

04-25-10, 02:39 PM

What struggles?

BA doesn't tell everything but he's hitting .300 and only Ked once in 10PAs vs. lefties this season.
This is Girardi paying homage to his l/r/l/r bible.

I have no issues with this.

If Thames doesn't start against lefties he serves no purpose on the roster.

Gardner will start next time vs. a tough lefty instead of Granderson probably and still be on pace to get 500~550pas for the year.

Where are you getting your numbers from?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=6125

delv

04-25-10, 02:42 PM

I have to agree....no space for Nick Johnson next year with Gardner this good. Montero/Posada 550 AB, Cervelli 150PA-Montero/Posada split C/DH duties and Cervelli doesn't play much unless an injury. I don't see why Cervelli should play all that much with those two ahead of him.....a day at DH is basically a day off.

Umm.. your math is off. Who takes all those other PAs @ the DH slot?

grizy

04-25-10, 03:20 PM

Where are you getting your numbers from?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=6125

Dah, thought you were talking about Gardner. Didn't read the posts before yours.

But yeah, if it were up to me sit Granderson.

JSG

04-25-10, 04:29 PM

have to DH thames. he's a butcher in LF. per above, javy was likely to need all the D help he could get. gardner clearly gets to that ball, likely saves a few runs.

grizy

04-25-10, 05:39 PM

Gardy actually got good wood on Scot Shields. More than what could be said for Posada and Granderson.

Still, 0-2 for the day.

AWDean

04-25-10, 10:27 PM

It's a little early to start turning Gardy into Lou Brock, but so far so good.

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 07:19 AM

It's a little early to start turning Gardy into Lou Brock, But I don't believe it's a too early to start turning his "ceiling" into Lou Brock. I now believe that is a distinct possibility.

stazsanity

04-26-10, 07:43 AM

BRNXBMRS

04-26-10, 08:01 AM

Must start everyday till further notice. The man is on a mission!!!

mal1219

04-26-10, 08:04 AM

Moreso than Kendry's homer, the game turned yesterday when Thames couldn't field that ball in left...if Gardner is truly the Yankees every day left fielder, as Girardi said he was in Spring Training, then he needs to be playing against lefties. I get that Thames is absolutely mashing left handed pitching, but that sinking liner to left was very catchable and completely changed the flow of the game. Gardner catches that, no problem.

Agreed. Looked like Joe was trying too much:
a) start Cervelli to give Javy a different look
b) keep Posada's bat in the lineup
c) put Thames' bat in the lineup

With the benefit of hindsight, maybe a better option was to put Gardy in LF, Thames as the DH and Posada at C.

Brett should be playing everyday. His D is pretty good and so far his hitting has been better than league average

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 08:17 AM

Moreso than Kendry's homer, the game turned yesterday when Thames couldn't field that ball in left...if Gardner is truly the Yankees every day left fielder, as Girardi said he was in Spring Training, then he needs to be playing against lefties. I get that Thames is absolutely mashing left handed pitching, but that sinking liner to left was very catchable and completely changed the flow of the game. Gardner catches that, no problem.I agree. But to Girardi, Gardner is a starter, the same as Swish and Grandy and NJ, who all are rotating with Thames vs LHP. So the real question is, does Thames just take ABs away from NJ at DH or do you let him play the field and rotate the others as well? Thames' 1.420 OPS so far makes it a tough choice. But I'm starting to lean towards no fielding except maybe Fenway, steals 1/4-1/6 of NJ PAs depending on who's hot, and late inning pinch hitting VS LH reliever rotating between Gardner Grandy and Swisher with Winn taking the field.

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 08:25 AM

Agreed. Looked like Joe was trying too much:
a) start Cervelli to give Javy a different look
b) keep Posada's bat in the lineup
c) put Thames' bat in the lineup

With the benefit of hindsight, maybe a better option was to put Gardy in LF, Thames as the DH and Posada at C.

Totally agree and believe Joe learned his lesson and we will never see that lineup this year again if Posada is availablle to catch.

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 11:12 AM

But I don't believe it's a too early to start turning his "ceiling" into Lou Brock. I now believe that is a distinct possibility.Through his age 25 season Brock had already hit 32 HRs and he would go on to post double digit HRs in 5 of his next season hitting a career high of 21 at age 28 - I'll be shocked if Gardner has 3 double digit HRs season in his career let alone 20 HR season and at this point I'd be mildly surprised if he hits 32 HRs in his MLB career.

While I'm thrilled to death with what Gardner has done so far in the early going, I think it is crazy to say his ceiling is a hall of fame 3,000+ hits, 900+ SB career.

ThePinStripes

04-26-10, 11:15 AM

So does anyone know why isn't Gardner an everyday starter?

Is it the .327 BA, the .421 OBP or the fantastic defense?

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 11:34 AM

So does anyone know why isn't Gardner an everyday starter?

Is it the .327 BA, the .421 OBP or the fantastic defense?
Beacuse .500/.563/.857 is even better?

Thames will continue to start every time the Yanks face a lefty as lon as something like that continues which will send one of Gardner / Granderson / Johnson / Swisher to the bench. For now more often than not it has been Gardner to the bench on those occasions and I for one have no problem at all with that - Gardner has started 13 of 18 games and played in 16 of 18. If he keeps up the .327 / .421 / .388 line sure Granderson / Johnson or Swisher will start finding themselves on the bench more frequently when a southpaw is on the hill but right now hard to complain with the way Joe G has managed his starters and bench.

ThePinStripes

04-26-10, 11:35 AM

stazsanity

04-26-10, 12:35 PM

Beacuse .500/.563/.857 is even better?

Thames will continue to start every time the Yanks face a lefty as lon as something like that continues which will send one of Gardner / Granderson / Johnson / Swisher to the bench. For now more often than not it has been Gardner to the bench on those occasions and I for one have no problem at all with that - Gardner has started 13 of 18 games and played in 16 of 18. If he keeps up the .327 / .421 / .388 line sure Granderson / Johnson or Swisher will start finding themselves on the bench more frequently when a southpaw is on the hill but right now hard to complain with the way Joe G has managed his starters and bench.

Careful there... heindsight is 20/20 and there's no way to be sure of it, but odds are Gardner catches the ball that Thames drops in left which COMPLETELY changes the complexion of the game (impacts the momentum that the Angels gathered, etc)... and even though the two decisions are irrelevent in this thread, the way he mis-managed the ninth on Friday night was perplexing as well as that little episode with Marte yesterday afternoon were curious. I'm not a Girardi basher, but he did have a curious set of decisions this past weekend.

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 12:48 PM

Careful there... heindsight is 20/20 and there's no way to be sure of it, but odds are Gardner catches the ball that Thames drops in left which COMPLETELY changes the complexion of the game (impacts the momentum that the Angels gathered, etc)... and even though the two decisions are irrelevent in this thread, the way he mis-managed the ninth on Friday night was perplexing as well as that little episode with Marte yesterday afternoon were curious. I'm not a Girardi basher, but he did have a curious set of decisions this past weekend.I'm not in anyway saying Thames is a better defenser than Gardner. I was pointing out that based on past history - Granderson/Swisher/Johnson all have much longer track records than Gardner and in April that is what you go on when you put your lefty masher (Thames) in the lineup. Eveybody knows that Thames has defensive limitations and he gets pretty exposed against righties but as long as he's crushing lefties he'll be starting against them and somebody has to sit. So far Garnder has drawn the short end of the stick 4 times when Thames has started with Granderson & Johnson each getting a day off for a Marcus start.

If Gardner continues to hit like he has I think you'll start seeing Gardner sit less frequently when Thames name is in the lineup with the other 3 getting the occasional off day more frequently but consdiring there were questions about Gardner's ability to be an every day OF, hence the Randy Winn signing, I don't balmce Joe one bit for Gardner getting the bulk of bench time in the early going and Gardner has come off the bench when a righty has repalced the starter.

Now I know you can argue that maybe Granderson should be sitting when a lefty starts due to his poor career splits against lefties and that may be how it plays out later in the season but I think through at least June the Yanks want to get Granderson as many looks against lefties as possible to try to fix whatever has been wrong in the past.

stazsanity

04-26-10, 12:56 PM

[quote=Yankee Tripper]I'm not in anyway saying Thames is a better defenser than Gardner. I was pointing out that based on past history - Granderson/Swisher/Johnson all have much longer track records than Gardner and in April that is what you go on when you put your lefty masher (Thames) in the lineup. Eveybody knows that Thames has defensive limitations and he gets pretty exposed against righties but as long as he's crushing lefties he'll be starting against them and somebody has to sit. So far Garnder has drawn the short end of the stick 4 times when Thames has started with Granderson & Johnson each getting a day off for a Marcus start.

If Gardner continues to hit like he has I think you'll start seeing Gardner sit less frequently when Thames name is in the lineup with the other 3 getting the occasional off day more frequently but consdiring there were questions about Gardner's ability to be an every day OF, hence the Randy Winn signing, I don't balmce Joe one bit for Gardner getting the bulk of bench time in the early going and Gardner has come off the bench when a righty has repalced the starter.

[B]Now I know you can argue that maybe Granderson should be sitting when a lefty starts due to his poor career splits against lefties and that may be how it plays out later in the season but I think through at least June the Yanks want to get Granderson as many looks against lefties as possible to try to fix whatever has been wrong in the past.[quote]

exactly- I think a lot of the reason why Gardner has "gotten the short end of the stick" four time has to do with the supposed change to his approach that Long has instituted against LHP and seeing if it works...that, and of course, regardless of how hot of a start Gardy has gotten out to, Granderson remains a perenial All-Star and Gardner remains an up and comer.

Having said that, my main point was this: the good comes with the bad, and in this case, every time Thames starts in a slot other than DH, the possible repurcussions of "negative game changing defensive plays" occur.

YESSIR!

04-26-10, 12:57 PM

Careful there... heindsight is 20/20 and there's no way to be sure of it, but odds are Gardner catches the ball that Thames drops in left which COMPLETELY changes the complexion of the game (impacts the momentum that the Angels gathered, etc)...

By the same token though, Thames blasted a no-out double in the second inning and later came around to score. It can cut both ways, but in a nutshell there's your trade-off.

That said, with the way Gardner is playing right now I have trouble sitting him for Thames. The guy is a wretched defender and is clearly giving back some of what he does with the bat by bumbling around the outfield.

stazsanity

04-26-10, 01:01 PM

By the same token though, Thames blasted a no-out double in the second inning and later came around to score. It can cut both ways, but in a nutshell there's your trade-off.

That said, with the way Gardner is playing right now I have trouble sitting him for Thames. The guy is a wretched defender and is clearly giving back some of what he does with the bat by bumbling around the outfield.

again, that's the only point I'm making...there's a trade-off... I don't disagree with Thames starting against a left, who he in turn, mashed...but then you (the proverbial you, not you personally) can't complain about his defense...it's a trade-off that has to be made

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 01:01 PM

exactly- I think a lot of the reason why Gardner has "gotten the short end of the stick" four time has to do with the supposed change to his approach that Long has instituted against LHP and seeing if it works...that, and of course, regardless of how hot of a start Gardy has gotten out to, Granderson remains a perenial All-Star and Gardner remains an up and comer.

Having said that, my main point was this: the good comes with the bad, and in this case, every time Thames starts in a slot other than DH, the possible repurcussions of "negative game changing defensive plays" occur.
Yeah - Thames is a butcher but he'd a defensive downgrade regardless of which OF he replaces. Still if the Yanks are going to get his bat in the lineup against lefties and they should the way he is hitting them - you do have to take the good with the bad unless as you say they sit Johnson and DH which takes out a career .423 OBP against lefties and that simply isn't going to happen too often unless Johnson needs a day off or one of his manny injuries rears its ugly head.

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 01:11 PM

Through his age 25 season Brock had already hit 32 HRs and he would go on to post double digit HRs in 5 of his next season hitting a career high of 21 at age 28 - I'll be shocked if Gardner has 3 double digit HRs season in his career let alone 20 HR season and at this point I'd be mildly surprised if he hits 32 HRs in his MLB career.

While I'm thrilled to death with what Gardner has done so far in the early going, I think it is crazy to say his ceiling is a hall of fame 3,000+ hits, 900+ SB career. I agree but that is not what I meant. Gardner obviously is a late bloomer as his start was as a walk on in college, so he will never approach Brock's career or have his longevity, no question. But I do believe his ceiling to be an average Brock year of .... .293 .343.410.753 109 OPS+ and avg 58 SB. I wasn't very clear but that is what was meant as I was looking at Brocks career AVG stats when I made that comment.

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 01:26 PM

I agree but that is not what I meant. Gardner obviously is a late bloomer as his start was as a walk on in college, so he will never approach Brock's career, no question. But I do believe his ceiling to be an average Brock year of .... .293 .343.410.753 109 OPS+ and avg 58 SB. I wasn't very clear but that is what was meant as I was looking at Brocks career AVG stats when I made that comment.

That would be fantastic if could pull that off. I'm still skeptical of his ability to ever consistantly post .400+ SLG but if could produce that .293 AVE and say .363 OPB with .390 SLG he'd be just as valuable for the same .753 OPS, he'd probably be even more valuable.

I'm still not ready to compare to Brock though based on less than one full month into the season. ;)

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 01:51 PM

That would be fantastic if could pull that off. I'm still skeptical of his ability to ever consistantly post .400+ SLG but if could produce that .293 AVE and say .363 OPB with .390 SLG he'd be just as valuable for the same .753 OPS, he'd probably be even more valuable.That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw .293 and the .753 which translated to a 109 OPS+ which I think he can do...NOT that I'm making a comparison mind you, just fantasizing about his new ceiling for me.

But enough about ceilings, has his floor risen for you yet?

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 01:54 PM

That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw .293 and the .753 which translated to a 109 OPS+ which I think he can do...NOT that I'm making a comparison mind you, just fantasizing about his new ceiling for me.
Still think this guy makes a much better comp ceiling than Brock http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/butlebr01.shtml and his career slash line was .290 / .377 / .376 much closer to what Brett might be expect to produce if he reaches his ceiling.

edit - has his floor risen? Again after a month it's too early to say - I think his floor is still 4th outfielder but which each passing day I think it is much more likely now that he's an everyday MLB outfielder. - and fwiw I do own him in a FBB league so I'm hoping he does lead the league in SBs this year. :)

JSG

04-26-10, 02:03 PM

Moreso than Kendry's homer, the game turned yesterday when Thames couldn't field that ball in left...if Gardner is truly the Yankees every day left fielder, as Girardi said he was in Spring Training, then he needs to be playing against lefties. I get that Thames is absolutely mashing left handed pitching, but that sinking liner to left was very catchable and completely changed the flow of the game. Gardner catches that, no problem.

100%. especially w the chronically shaky vazquez on the mound. i get it, girardi wanted to double up on the R bats w thames and posada, but with all the boppers in this lineup -- even percolating half speed -- the D is more important. this + the quick BP hooks on pitchers who are cruising are the two errors i hope girardi clears up ASAP.

JSG

04-26-10, 02:05 PM

Totally agree and believe Joe learned his lesson and we will never see that lineup this year again if Posada is availablle to catch.

as Spiker used to say, girardi got too cute with the lineup. not only the D, brett had had a GREAT game the day before. no reason to get fancy.

JSG

04-26-10, 02:06 PM

Beacuse .500/.563/.857 is even better?

so DH him.

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 02:09 PM

Still think this guy makes a much better comp ceiling than Brock http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/butlebr01.shtml and his career slash line was .290 / .377 / .376 much closer to what Brett might be expect to produce if he reaches his ceiling.Yeah, I agree, but with double his avg SB . As far as the brock comp, I didn't initiate it. I just responded to a poster who said "It's a little early to start turning Gardy into Lou Brock" , when NO one had EVER suggested that. So I looked at Brock's career averages and thought the BA, OPS and OPS+ and SB were now within Gardners ceiling.

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 02:13 PM

Yeah, I agree, but with double his avg SB .
Butler averaged 41 per 162 games - I think Gardner can best that, especially over the next 5 years if he's an every day player but doubling that over a career would be awfully tough.

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 02:29 PM

Butler averaged 41 per 162 games - I think Gardner can best that, especially over the next 5 years if he's an every day player but doubling that over a career would be awfully tough.I agree but we are still talking ceiling and I think 82 SB per 162 games is possible for Gardner. He's on pace for about that this year.

So "my comp ceiling" for Gardner is Brett Butler with double his SB...a very desirable player and one I can only hope we end up with.

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 02:43 PM

I agree but we are still talking ceiling and I think 82 SB per 162 games is possible for Gardner. He's on pace for about that this year.
:lol: 82 SBs in a season qualifies for a tie 58th all time in a single season including all the pre-1900 suspect ones (which are the majority of them) where "taking and extra base" was often credited as an SB.

Only Henderson (5), Coleman (3), Wills (2), Cobb (2) have multiple seasons with more than 82 SB.

Henderson averaged "only" 74 SB per 162 games and Coleman 89 per 162 SB so you are talking about Gardner being amoung the absolute most prolific base stealers of all time if you think that he can do that. Since 1900 I think there have been less than 20 - 82+ SB seasons in MLB history.

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 03:31 PM

Only Henderson (5), Coleman (3), Wills (2), Cobb (2) have multiple seasons with more than 82 SB.

Henderson averaged "only" 74 SB per 162 games and Coleman 89 per 162 SB so you are talking about Gardner being amoung the absolute most prolific base stealers of all time if you think that he can do that. Again, I am talking ceiling and yes I believe if Gardner reaches his OBP ceiling, his SB ceiling will be among the most prolific of all time. I see no reason why an 82 SB per 162 (which is actually less than 82 per season presuming he misses some games) isn't a distinct possibility as his upper limit, taking into consideration that his career SSS success rate of 85% is better than Hendersons 81%, Coleman's 81% and Wills' 73%.

Sometimes I think that Gardner falls into the "white men can't jump" syndrome when it comes to comparing his base stealing prowess against the best before him.

Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 04:06 PM

Again, I am talking ceiling and yes I believe if Gardner reaches his OBP ceiling, his SB ceiling will be among the most prolific of all time. I see no reason why an 82 SB per 162 (which is actually less than 82 per season presuming he misses some games) isn't a distinct possibility as his upper limit, taking into consideration that his career SSS success rate of 85% is better than Hendersons 81%, Coleman's 81% and Wills' 73%.
By my unofficial review that would rank him 2nd all time to Vince Coleman - who played in the quite possibly the greatest SB era of all time.

Here is what I have for people who have average 60 or more per 162 games - it is ashort list and I expect Reyes to drop off before his career is over as an SS
Vince Coleman - 89 :eek:
Rickey Henderson - 74
Ron LeFlouer - 67 (was suprised to see him #3)
Jacoby Ellsbury - 63
Jose Reyes - 61

Brett Gardner so far in his career is at 47

Some other notables -
Cobb - 48
Wills - 49
Loften - 48
Pierre - 52
Brock - 58
Moreno - 57
North - 55
Crawford - 54
Raines - 52
Lopes - 50

Yankee Fan in Boston

04-26-10, 04:06 PM

Again, I am talking ceiling and yes I believe if Gardner reaches his OBP ceiling, his SB ceiling will be among the most prolific of all time. I see no reason why an 82 SB per 162 (which is actually less than 82 per season presuming he misses some games) isn't a distinct possibility as his upper limit, taking into consideration that his career SSS success rate of 85% is better than Hendersons 81%, Coleman's 81% and Wills' 73%.

Sometimes I think that Gardner falls into the "white men can't jump" syndrome when it comes to comparing his base stealing prowess against the best before him.

I think it's more of a huge leap to expect that he'll continue at his current rate over the course of an entire season, let alone an entire career.

yankee82093

04-26-10, 04:12 PM

Again, I am talking ceiling and yes I believe if Gardner reaches his OBP ceiling, his SB ceiling will be among the most prolific of all time. I see no reason why an 82 SB per 162 (which is actually less than 82 per season presuming he misses some games) isn't a distinct possibility as his upper limit, taking into consideration that his career SSS success rate of 85% is better than Hendersons 81%, Coleman's 81% and Wills' 73%.

Sometimes I think that Gardner falls into the "white men can't jump" syndrome when it comes to comparing his base stealing prowess against the best before him.

But Henderson, etc. were more aggressive, thus likely lowering their success rates. If they were more selective in their stolen base attempts (only stealing when it was easiest/easier to), they probably could have had a Garner level success rate. I think using success rate is a little skewed.

mbn007

04-26-10, 04:31 PM

By my unofficial review that would rank him 2nd all time to Vince Coleman - who played in the quite possibly the greatest SB era of all time.

Here is what I have for people who have average 60 or more per 162 games - it is ashort list and I expect Reyes to drop off before his career is over as an SS
Vince Coleman - 89 :eek:
Rickey Henderson - 74
Ron LeFlouer - 67 (was suprised to see him #3)
Jacoby Ellsbury - 63
Jose Reyes - 61

Brett Gardner so far in his career is at 47

Some other notables -
Cobb - 48
Wills - 49
Loften - 48
Pierre - 52
Brock - 58
Moreno - 57
North - 55
Crawford - 54
Raines - 52
Lopes - 50

Good research. I am impressed with this list.

Lefluer was very prolific with the Tigers. He was a threat to go every time on base. He used to take huge leads, daring the pitcher to throw over. He was as great a distraction for opposing pitchers as any base-stealer ever was, at least those I have watched over the past 40+ seasons.

Crawford was someone I would have thought would be on the top list. I guess as he has become a more rounded hitter, and is more valuble to teh Rays, he is running less than before.

Lofton probably fell off as his career went on, since he did not play full time his last few seasons.

Omar Moreno. I would never have expected him to be there, as I never would have associated him as a good enough hitter to run so often, year after year.

Again, well done.

OldYankeeFan

04-26-10, 04:46 PM

I think it's more of a huge leap to expect that he'll continue at his current rate over the course of an entire season, let alone an entire career.I agree with this as I was once again thinking of what my season ceiling for Gardner would be and not his career. So to be clear...I believe Gardner's SB ceiling for any one season is 82, and NOT that he will average 82 for his career.

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Yankee Tripper

04-26-10, 04:54 PM

grizy

04-26-10, 05:41 PM

:lol: I have to say I'm not clicking that link but very funny post, though I'm sensing a released outright in your future.

site looks legit.

Girls too.

JavyVazquezIsSick

04-26-10, 05:48 PM

Whore off.

delv

04-26-10, 08:05 PM

Brett scored the final run in the old Yankee stadium. :)

AWDean

04-26-10, 10:36 PM

mr.roy

04-27-10, 07:09 AM

You may have something there.
Right about the start of the season I predicted he would break 50 SB.
Thought it would be tough for him to do that.
My, what 16 games will do for a guy's career.

OldYankeeFan

04-27-10, 08:03 AM

I can't believe what I'm reading. Look, I like Gardner and believe he has a chance to have a good season, but they've only played 1/10 of the season! Projecting a career or even a full season from that is insane.Again, I agree. But no one that I've seen is using his stats so far this season and "prorojecting" that is what he will do for either a season or career.

You are confusing "projecting" his stats for this season which I have previously done (.360 OBP and 115 wRC+) and what I would consider his ceiling to be. Previously that was a .380 OBP (for me) . In part it was his start, but more importantly Gardner for the first time only last week showed his "good" swing for the first time since the two months prior to breaking his hand last year, (successive .417and .439 OBP months), and previous to that in 2009 ST in which he was swinging by far the best I had ever seen. Well his uber swing looks to be back, hopefully for good

So to see that good swing come back when he already had > a .400 obp so far this season just with his legs, prompted me to increase my OBP ceiling for him from .380 to .400 for a season. Let me clarify that before someone again takes that to mean other than what I intend. I am NOT saying that I expect him to have an OBP this year of .400. I am NOT saying I believe he will have a career .400 OBP. I am saying that he is now capable imo of "possibly" having his career year break .400 OBP, where previously I did not think that possible. That is what I now consider his "ceiling" to be. Similar to Brett Butler who had a .377 career OBP but had several seasons in which be broke .400 for OBP.

IF Gardner does actually achieve my ceiling for OBP of .400 for a season then I believe his ceiling (his upper limit for that season, not what is expected) to be 82 SB if he plays a full 162.

jesterno2

04-27-10, 08:45 PM

how close was that pitch? gameday has it missing but called a strike, or maybe the outer edge of the glare of the baseball caught the absolute farthest specks of black off the edge of the plate?

grizy

04-27-10, 09:30 PM

Gardner Comes Through.

Even when he doesn't get a hit he rushes the fielders so much I think he basically induced that error by being Gardner.

89FoxBody

04-27-10, 10:03 PM

how close was that pitch? gameday has it missing but called a strike, or maybe the outer edge of the glare of the baseball caught the absolute farthest specks of black off the edge of the plate?

it was not even close to being a strike, in any universe.

OldYankeeFan

04-28-10, 07:09 AM

it was not even close to being a strike, in any universe.And you wouldn't even mind as much if Hughes wasn't getting squeezed on the other end.

gold23

04-28-10, 07:25 AM

And you wouldn't even mind as much if Hughes wasn't getting squeezed on the other end.

HP ump wasn't very good. Punched Granderson out on a ball. Wasn't seeing the outside part of the plate down well at all, and was too generous up. He did miss a few strikes on breaking balls too, which means he didn't stay with them long enough.

delv

04-28-10, 07:33 AM

HP ump wasn't very good. Punched Granderson out on a ball. Wasn't seeing the outside part of the plate down well at all, and was too generous up. He did miss a few strikes on breaking balls too, which means he didn't stay with them long enough.

yeah, the same pitch away to lefties... Granderson K'd, Gardner K'd, and Cano would've walked (first AB)

stazsanity

04-28-10, 07:36 AM

yeah, the same pitch away to lefties... Granderson K'd, Gardner K'd, and Cano would've walked (first AB)

While I agree with you, on the same accord, that probably means that the hitters did a less than adequate job making adjustments.

Having said that, it was truly enjoyable last night listening to Thorne and Palmer homer their way through the game (as they typically do) chastising Yankee hitters for letting the borderline high pitches go by for called strikes 3s, commenting that "you have to be up there protecting anything around the zone with two strikes," only to turn around and berate the HP ump everytime he rung up an Oriole, stating "borderline at best" and "didn't look like it was in the zone to me."

Due to blackout restrictions and living with the Orioles' market, I'm stuck with dumb and dumber 19 times a year.

nnysiny

04-28-10, 07:43 AM

im very impressed with the way he ground balls to the left side almost at will. if he keeps it up, Nick Johnson can get injured all he wants

grizy

04-29-10, 07:06 AM

BA: .310
OBP: .394
SLG: .362
wRC+: 132

grizy

04-30-10, 04:15 PM

Getting more pedestrian

BA: .306
OBP: .386
SLG: .371
wRC+: 130

2JAY

04-30-10, 04:17 PM

I know it's early, but I have been impressed with what Gardner has been doing so far.

delv

04-30-10, 04:18 PM

he's looking better in LF

roblyo33

04-30-10, 04:21 PM

he's looking better in LF

Whoever has been positioning the OFs has done a great job, making Brett look even better, IMO. There was one AB last night that looked like it was going to drop on the LF foul line and Brett was standing right there.

delv

04-30-10, 04:28 PM

^true dat

JSG

04-30-10, 09:13 PM

what a GREAT AB in the 7th. another HUGE hit (and steal). another solid game for brett.

roblyo33

04-30-10, 09:52 PM

He actually hit the ball hard. I wasn't sure if he was capable of that.

mr.roy

04-30-10, 10:08 PM

what a GREAT AB in the 7th. another HUGE hit (and steal). another solid game for brett.

Second that. I think he saw like 8,9 pitches.
10th steal by the way for those interested.

Yankee Tripper

04-30-10, 10:11 PM

Second that. I think he saw like 8,9 pitches.
10th steal by the way for those interested.
I'm well aware - he and Davis on my Fantasy team is an unbeatable SB combo. But unlike Davis - Gardner is contributing in multiple cats.

I think questions about him being an every day player are rapidly being put to rest.

89FoxBody

04-30-10, 11:02 PM

I will be extremely thrilled if Gardner can put up numbers like this all season. That's unlikely, but if he can even approach his current level of production, I'll be more than satisfied telling Crawford to call someone else.

2JAY

04-30-10, 11:07 PM

I'm well aware - he and Davis on my Fantasy team is an unbeatable SB combo. But unlike Davis - Gardner is contributing in multiple cats.

I think questions about him being an every day player are rapidly being put to rest.I had real concerns about him being out there every day and so far, he has totally proven me wrong.

grizy

05-01-10, 01:54 AM

Just unbelievable. Everytime (so far) his numbers start to come down he picks it back up again.

BA: .323
OBP: .392
SLG: .384
OPS: .777
SB: 10 (assuming 500PAs, on pace for 68)
R: 14 (assuming 500PAs, on pace 95)

False1

05-01-10, 01:56 AM

:lol: 82 SBs in a season qualifies for a tie 58th all time in a single season including all the pre-1900 suspect ones (which are the majority of them) where "taking and extra base" was often credited as an SB.

Only Henderson (5), Coleman (3), Wills (2), Cobb (2) have multiple seasons with more than 82 SB.

Henderson averaged "only" 74 SB per 162 games and Coleman 89 per 162 SB so you are talking about Gardner being amoung the absolute most prolific base stealers of all time if you think that he can do that. Since 1900 I think there have been less than 20 - 82+ SB seasons in MLB history.I think the presumption being used is that Gardner can eclipse Coleman's .324 career OBP. Also, Gardner's limited slugging actually gives him more bases to steal then a Henderson or Brock, who often got themselves into scoring position with XBH. I don't think it's ROFL material to consider Gardner a threat to steal 80 bags at some point.

stazsanity

05-01-10, 06:40 AM

Brett Gardner may not be the story of April... between the success of the rotation, Robbie's hot start, Mo being Mo again, the defense playing an incredible month of baseball, the Yankees winning six out of seven series (mostly on the road), another slow start for Tex, the Nick Johnson storylines, etc...it's easy for his contributions this month to slip by. However, the bottom line is this: Gardner just put together a month of .323/.397/.385. where he led the league in stolen bases and scored 14 runs out of the nine hole (8 fewer than the leage leader), which is made even more impressive when you realize he was sat to start several games vs. LHP.

The conversation has been alive throughout these boards over the past two years that when he's playing good baseball, he "adds a dimension to this team" that it hasn't known in quite some time... well he's done that and more so far, and he makes this lineup deeper in a way that makes it a ton more fun to watch. I don't remember a time I've watched the Yankees and seen a guy standing on first and thought to myself "Man, if one of the outfielders has to as much as range in one direction or another on a hit, he's going to score."

Some question whether or not he'll be able to maintain this performance, and it's a viable question... but early indications are that the Yankees have found their left fielder. (Sorry, Carl).

JSG

05-01-10, 07:08 AM

I had real concerns about him being out there every day and so far, he has totally proven me wrong.

yeah, me too. i liked the idea of giving him a shot, but wasn't sure his swing would hold up as a full-time player. but he's been really good, and he's starting to hit more line drives, which is great news.

ieddyi

05-01-10, 08:17 AM

I also think it's possible that in time he might even develop power.

There have been times where he does a more "normal' swing as opposed to the short slap type and gets very good carry on the ball.

A gapper for him is almost a sure triple

mr.roy

05-01-10, 08:36 AM

themgmt

05-01-10, 09:39 AM

Something tells me that if Gardy moves to the #2 spot his RS will increase.
NJ has 9 RS so far this season batting 2nd, for the most part.
Brett 14 batting 9th for the most part.

There has got to be someone on this team who can get more productions out of the #2 spot than NJ. Has to be.

You think Gardner having a guy hitting .330 and slugging over .500 behind him helps his cause more than Johnson having a guy hitting .130 and slugging .250 behind him?