View Full Version : JDPNYY's Question of the day #253 - Monday 12/7/09
Monday 12/7/09 - JDPNYY's Question of the day (#253):
What date in US History would rank as the third worst date of infamy?
philleotardo
12-06-09, 11:57 PM
Monday 12/7/09 - JDPNYY's Question of the day (#253):
What date in US History would rank as the third worst date of infamy?I assume 12/7/41 and 9/11/01 are 1 and 2, therefore:
11/22/1963
theDurk
12-07-09, 12:01 AM
September 17, 1862: Battle of Antietam. 23000 casualties in one day--needless to say, all Americans killed by other Americans. There is a good case to make it number one, but I'll go with three for this exercise.
Personal Note: On Dec 7, 1941, my father, draft exempt as too old and father of two (my older siblings) went to town and volunteered for the Army over the violent objections of my mother. His brother, a Navy fighter pilot, was based at Pearl, but his carrier was out on maneuvers on Dec 7. The family had no news whatsoever until mid-January 1942.
BxBomber44
12-07-09, 12:15 AM
During a time of war there are so many to choose from, but putting my American bias aside, I would have to say we acknowledge both Hiroshima and Dresden... the amount of lives lost were catastrophic - each because of the politics and actions of the respective countries, though.
3 would be Dresden for me, not trying to be anti-American because I am far from it. Our president and military leaders were faced with impossible circumstances and a decision was made, but it's hard to ignore that day. It spanned over a few days, but we'll go with the initial day for the questions sake: Feb 13 1945
FWIW, I'm assuming 9/11/01 is number 2.
JL25and3
12-07-09, 04:35 AM
October 20, 2004.
October 20, 2004.
Close the thread now.
Ignatowski
12-07-09, 06:05 AM
April 20 1889-Hitler born
fredgmuggs
12-07-09, 06:06 AM
I'll say the Wall Street crash on October 29, 1929 because it's the symbolic beginning of the Great Depression.
(excellent choice of question on this anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day)
4bronxbombers
12-07-09, 07:28 AM
October 20, 2004.
:-werd-:
:barf:
penguin4
12-07-09, 07:40 AM
October 20, 2004.My first thought, as well. :thatsodd:
fredgmuggs
12-07-09, 07:52 AM
My first thought, as well. :thatsodd:
When I saw the question I knew someone would give that answer ...but given truly catastrophic events this country has faced it seemed a bit arrogant to me to say or think that.
JL25and3
12-07-09, 08:08 AM
When I saw the question I knew someone would give that answer ...but given truly catastrophic events this country has faced it seemed a bit arrogant to me to say or think that.Gee, thanks, muggs. We wouldn't want anyone answering the QOTD with less than complete solemnity.
4bronxbombers
12-07-09, 08:09 AM
Gee, thanks, muggs.
Yeah really :lol:
fredgmuggs
12-07-09, 08:22 AM
Gee, thanks, muggs. We wouldn't want anyone answering the QOTD with less than complete solemnity.
I figured you for a Dred Scott Supreme Court Decision guy.
Seriously, though, - if today was the anniversary of 9-11 would you have used the answer you gave?
When I saw the question I knew someone would give that answer ...but given truly catastrophic events this country has faced it seemed a bit arrogant to me to say or think that.
Oh brother.
xxltaco
12-07-09, 08:34 AM
4/19/95... oklahoma city.
JL25and3
12-07-09, 08:36 AM
I figured you for a Dred Scott Supreme Court Decision guy.
Seriously, though, - if today was the anniversary of 9-11 would you have used the answer you gave?I don't know what I would have said. It's a semi-serious daily quiz on a Yankee message board, for crissake. Arrogant? Really? You don't think maybe there's a little role reversal there?
Maynerd
12-07-09, 08:37 AM
April 14, 1865.
I truly wonder what Lincoln might have accomplished had he been able to complete his second term.
fredgmuggs
12-07-09, 08:41 AM
I don't know what I would have said. It's a semi-serious daily quiz on a Yankee message board, for crissake. Arrogant? Really? You don't think maybe there's a little role reversal there?
Ok, I made my point clumsily but you know what I was saying. People don't view Pearl Harbor Day with the emotional impact as our older generation has.
People are solemn on the anniversary 9-11. On the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day TCM plays From Here to Eternity. That's about the extent of Pearl Harbor Day.
MunsonNY15
12-07-09, 08:43 AM
April 14, 1865.
I truly wonder what Lincoln might have accomplished had he been able to complete his second term.
You beat me to it Maynerd.
Heidi
JL25and3
12-07-09, 08:50 AM
Ok, I made my point clumsily but you know what I was saying. People don't view Pearl Harbor Day with the emotional impact as our older generation has.
People are solemn on the anniversary 9-11. On the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day TCM plays From Here to Eternity. That's about the extent of Pearl Harbor Day.And Easter is now about an enormous rabbit delivering painted eggs and jelly beans.
My dad served in the Pacific, and my mother's brother was killed in Lingayen Gulf, in the Philippines. I was there once, with my family, to scatter my grandmother's ashes where her son died. I understand about Pearl Harbor, muggs, really I do.
pleasepassthesoup
12-07-09, 08:51 AM
9/29/1985
the day i was born. the poor country's never recovered.
4bronxbombers
12-07-09, 08:53 AM
*slowly backs out of thread after making similar comment as John did about Oct 2004*
Bozidar
12-07-09, 08:58 AM
Monday 12/7/09 - JDPNYY's Question of the day (#253):
What date in US History would (you?) rank as the third worst date of infamy?9/11/2001.
8/6/1945, and 8/9/1945 being 1 and 2.
Bozidar
12-07-09, 09:00 AM
October 20, 2004.This was a personal low for me, ranking just being 9/11. It was made worse by being my Birthday.. :(
But for the country, it's probably just in the top 20 somewhere.
fredgmuggs
12-07-09, 09:06 AM
And Easter is now about an enormous rabbit delivering painted eggs and jelly beans.
My dad served in the Pacific, and my mother's brother was killed in Lingayen Gulf, in the Philippines. I was there once, with my family, to scatter my grandmother's ashes where her son died. I understand about Pearl Harbor, muggs, really I do.
John, I'm not specifically targeting you, so please don't think that.... just how time changes the way people view things, in general. But I think you knew that.
My dad was also marine who fought in some the most awful conflicts in the south Pacific during WWII. He once said to me I gave up my soul fighting in that war and I never want any of my kids to ever have to do or see the things I did.
I know I've derailed the thread but this is a day whose significance I've never forgotten. And yeah 2004 sucked.
edit: John, I wanted to add (and apologize for not having said this earlier) your post about your grandmother's ashes being spread in the Philippines so she could be with her son was incredibly moving. Thank you for sharing that memory.
allybear
12-07-09, 09:13 AM
At the risk of getting smacked, I'm going with 10/9/1982 - my first wedding anniversary.
johnnyyankee
12-07-09, 09:15 AM
At the risk of getting smacked, I'm going with 10/9/1982 - my first wedding anniversary.
Consider yourself smacked. We are talking about "U.S." history, not "Ally" history. ;)
Ram Man
12-07-09, 10:06 AM
8/6/1945, and 8/9/1945 being 1 and 2.
Couldn't disagree more.
penguin4
12-07-09, 10:10 AM
Gee, thanks, muggs. We wouldn't want anyone answering the QOTD with less than complete solemnity.:lol: Yeah, really. Buzzkill.
You want a serious answer? How about May 18,1896? Look it up.
Wanna hint? It's a big part of why we now get off the third Monday in January.
xxltaco
12-07-09, 10:21 AM
This was a personal low for me, ranking just being 9/11. It was made worse by being my Birthday.. :(
But for the country, it's probably just in the top 20 somewhere.
my wife's birthday is 9/11. as is my best friend's wedding anniversary. bummer indeed.
Bozidar
12-07-09, 10:21 AM
Couldn't disagree more.:dunno: For good or ill of the long term we killed over 120,000 people between those two days, mostly civilians. If we down own up to this part of our history, we can't own the good parts either.
i'm not looking to convince you, but that's how i see it.
Stupid Flanders
12-07-09, 11:46 AM
April 14, 1865.
I truly wonder what Lincoln might have accomplished had he been able to complete his second term.Like set up more of a dictatorship than he already did?
Lincoln was the worst president in US history.
Stupid Flanders
12-07-09, 11:47 AM
On that note, April 27, 1861 was a terrible day. I'll put that 4th. Lincoln suspends habeas corpus, declares martial law, and sets up the first dictatorship in US history.
I'll put this third: February 3, 1913. 16th Amendment ratified, Congress has the power to tax income without the states' involvement, federal government begins massive power base building.
Ram Man
12-07-09, 01:25 PM
:dunno: For good or ill of the long term we killed over 120,000 people between those two days, mostly civilians. If we down own up to this part of our history, we can't own the good parts either.
i'm not looking to convince you, but that's how i see it.
I look at it as a price that was paid (a heavy price no doubt) to end a brutal war that would have, by virtually all accounts, resulted in many, many more deaths had it not come to an end when it did.
To be sure, those dates are not a high point in American history in terms of something to be proud of, they certainly in my view, don't rank as high on the infamy scale as 9/11/01, 12/7/41, 11/22/63 or some of the others that have been mentioned.
Ram Man
12-07-09, 01:26 PM
Lincoln was the worst president in US history.
That opinion certainly places you in the minority.
penguin4
12-07-09, 01:43 PM
Like set up more of a dictatorship than he already did?
Lincoln was the worst president in US history.You remind me of this girl in an English class I took at Columbia. We were studying the Gettysburg Address and she bursts out, "Well, I don't see what was so great about it!" She seriously meant it, too. Gotta love those left-wing revisionists.
JL25and3
12-07-09, 01:57 PM
In a more serious vein - and having taken a few deep breaths - I think muggs's choice of Black Tuesday is a good one.
Dave Visbeck
12-07-09, 01:58 PM
October 20, 2004.
October 16, 2003. :-hide-: :(
fredgmuggs
12-07-09, 02:08 PM
In a more serious vein - and having taken a few deep breaths - I think muggs's choice of Black Tuesday is a good one.
I was being a putz earlier and I regret it. (not the black Tuesday post. All the other stuff)
Bozidar
12-07-09, 02:12 PM
I look at it as a price that was paid (a heavy price no doubt) to end a brutal war that would have, by virtually all accounts, resulted in many, many more deaths had it not come to an end when it did.
To be sure, those dates are not a high point in American history in terms of something to be proud of, they certainly in my view, don't rank as high on the infamy scale as 9/11/01, 12/7/41, 11/22/63 or some of the others that have been mentioned.Take 12/7/41 for an example then. Had they not attacked us, would the US have dragged it's feet even further before entering WWII if at all? Would millions of lives have been ultimately lost, not to mention the extinction of many minority races? Would Japan have completed it's conquest of the Pacific and exterminated many of what they considered to be the lesser oriental races?
12/7/41, and the result of us entering the World War more tha likely saved many more innocent lives than it took.
Sometimes bad things happen, and good things are a result of them. Our country united, our economy really took off, our science was furthered, and our ability to affect change throughout the globe increased by an order of magnitude.
Fact of the matter is that while Pearl Habor was a sneak attack, it was an act of war carried out by a military opponent we were suspect of, on a military target. Was it unprovoked? No. Was it unkind of them to attack before declaring war? Of course. But mostly we just got caught with our pants down, and the result of that attack is likely the reason we're the only (fading) superpower left.
jlw1980
12-07-09, 02:13 PM
On that note, April 27, 1861 was a terrible day. I'll put that 4th. Lincoln suspends habeas corpus, declares martial law, and sets up the first dictatorship in US history. I agree with you on this (not sure about 4th but a truly horrible day).
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=69748
The COMMANDING GENERAL OF THE ARMY OF THE UNITED STATES
You are engaged in suppressing an insurrection against the laws of the United States. If at any point on or in the vicinity of any military, line which is now or which shall be used between the city of Philadelphia and the city of Washington you find resistance which renders it necessary to suspend the writ of habeas corpus for the public safety, you personally, or through the officer in command at the point where resistance occurs, are authorized to suspend that writ.
Given under my hand and the seal of the United States, at the city of Washington, this 27th day of April, 1861, and of the Independence of the United States the eighty-fifth.
ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
By the President of the United States:
WILLIAM H. SEWARD,
Secretary of State .
I don't understand how Executive Orders are remotely Constitutional. That one certainly was not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_(United_States)#Basis_in_U.S._Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_%28United_States%29#Basis_in_U.S._Constitution)
U.S. Presidents have issued executive orders since 1789. Although there is no Constitutional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution) provision or statute that explicitly permits executive orders, there is a vague grant of "executive power" given in Article II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution), Section 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_1:_President_and_Vice_President) of the Constitution, and the statement "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" in Article II, Section 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_3:_Presidential_responsibilities). Most executive orders are orders issued by the President to US executive officers to help direct their operation[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)], the consequence of failing to comply being removal from office.
Just as disturbing is the PATRIOT Act.
penguin4
12-07-09, 02:18 PM
October 16, 2003. :-hide-: :(
GREAT day. :D
jlw1980
12-07-09, 02:18 PM
I look at it as a price that was paid (a heavy price no doubt) to end a brutal war that would have, by virtually all accounts, resulted in many, many more deaths had it not come to an end when it did.
To be sure, those dates are not a high point in American history in terms of something to be proud of, they certainly in my view, don't rank as high on the infamy scale as 9/11/01, 12/7/41, 11/22/63 or some of the others that have been mentioned.
This. An invasion of Japan probably would've cost many more lives, both Japanese and Allied. That said, I think the second bomb was wholly unnecessary and wrong. Also, I think it was in part a punishment of sorts for the horrific treatment of American POWs by the Japanese.
JL25and3
12-07-09, 02:20 PM
I was being a putz earlier and I regret it. (not the black Tuesday post. All the other stuff)No biggie. What you consider being a putz would just be a little warm-up for a lot of us.
It's true, you might have put yourself out of the running for the coveted Allybear Award for all-around nicest poster. But you weren't going to beat out allybear, anyway, so it's OK.
I was being a putz earlier and I regret it. (not the black Tuesday post. All the other stuff)
I seem to recall...
ahhh, nevermind.
No biggie. What you consider being a putz would just be a little warm-up for a lot of us.
It's true, you might have put yourself out of the running for the coveted Allybear Award for all-around nicest poster. But you weren't going to beat out allybear, anyway, so it's OK.
I'm pretty sure JDPNYY is the nicest poster, when all is said and done...
penguin4
12-07-09, 02:27 PM
This. An invasion of Japan probably would've cost many more lives, both Japanese and Allied. That said, I think the second bomb was wholly unnecessary and wrong. Also, I think it was in part a punishment of sorts for the horrific treatment of American POWs by the Japanese.Yes, unfortunately, that's the way I see it, as well. The bombs were kind of a "take your pick"-type thing. Either kill of lots of Japanese (enemy) civilians, or kill off lots of Allied soldiers and Japanese and drag the war on longer. Lives will be lost. Unfortunately, in war, there will be civilian casualties, and President Truman had a right to protect the lives in his own country. I understand they wanted to hit a city to prove a point of what these bombs were capable of, but I kind of wish they'd done it in a more remote area where some lives would be lost, but not whole industries, or an area populated by more soldiers and less civilians. I guess we didn't exactly know the effects of radiation poisoning in those days the way we do now.
And maybe the second bomb was a punishment for American POWs, but it doesn't exactly make up for how horrible we were to the Japanese-Americans. I think that was a more despicable chapter in our history than any nuclear warfare.
allybear
12-07-09, 02:30 PM
No biggie. What you consider being a putz would just be a little warm-up for a lot of us.
It's true, you might have put yourself out of the running for the coveted Allybear Award for all-around nicest poster. But you weren't going to beat out allybear, anyway, so it's OK.
Oh, I think Muggsy's nicer than me - remember I was in a snippy mood one day last week. And I think my starter marriage ranks up there with the suspension of constitutional liberties, depression, war, Red Sox victories, etc., which may not make me not-nice, but certainly puts me right up there on the self-absorption scale. :lol:
jlw1980
12-07-09, 02:39 PM
Yes, unfortunately, that's the way I see it, as well. The bombs were kind of a "take your pick"-type thing. Either kill of lots of Japanese (enemy) civilians, or kill off lots of Allied soldiers and Japanese and drag the war on longer. Lives will be lost. Unfortunately, in war, there will be civilian casualties, and President Truman had a right to protect the lives in his own country. I understand they wanted to hit a city to prove a point of what these bombs were capable of, but I kind of wish they'd done it in a more remote area where some lives would be lost, but not whole industries, or an area populated by more soldiers and less civilians. I guess we didn't exactly know the effects of radiation poisoning in those days the way we do now.
And maybe the second bomb WAS a punishment for American POWs, but it doesn't exactly make up for how horrible we were to the Japanese-Americans. I think that was a more despicable chapter in our history than any nuclear warfare.
The U.S. was horrid to Japanese-Americans. No question. A terrible chapter in our national history.
Of course you know of the Bataan Death March. Did you know that the Japanese dissected American POWs while still alive?
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/uspow.htm
UKUOKA, Japan "I could never again wear a white smock," says Dr. Toshio Tono, dressed in a white running jacket at his hospital and recalling events of 50 years ago. "It's because the prisoners thought that we were doctors, since they could see the white smocks, that they didn't struggle. They never dreamed they would be dissected."
The prisoners were eight American airmen, knocked out of the sky over southern Japan during the waning months of World War U, and then torn apart organ by organ while they were still alive.
That's shockingly Mengele-esque.
Another beyond disturbing episode:
American Prisoners of War: Massacre at Palawan
http://www.historynet.com/american-prisoners-of-war-massacre-at-palawan.htm
Shocking that they got off so easy for these horrendous war crimes.
Ram Man
12-07-09, 03:21 PM
12/7/41, and the result of us entering the World War more tha likely saved many more innocent lives than it took.
I guess if you want to take cause and effect back far enough, that makes sense. At some point, someone was ultimately responsible for starting the sequence of events that resulted in millions of deaths and others were responsible for actions along the way that prevented deaths. In the end, more died than were necessary and fewer died than might have.
Yankees13
12-07-09, 03:31 PM
Like set up more of a dictatorship than he already did?
Lincoln was the worst president in US history.
The South will rise again! :lol:
jlw1980
12-07-09, 03:41 PM
The South will rise again! :lol:
Yes, that's exactly what he was saying.
/rolleyes
Yankees13
12-07-09, 03:44 PM
Yes, that's exactly what he was saying.
/rolleyes
Never heard of anyone besides Southern sympathizers claim that Lincoln was the worst President.
Bozidar
12-07-09, 03:56 PM
Never heard of anyone besides Southern sympathizers claim that Lincoln was the worst President.I think Thomas Jefferson might have thought it, had he been around. But that guy was cracked, to be honest.
interesting question, and some interesting answers.
I think I'll go with the stock market crash of Oct 29, 1929 (I stole the date from muggs)
BobLoblaw
12-07-09, 04:54 PM
9/11/2001.
8/6/1945, and 8/9/1945 being 1 and 2.
I agree with your #1 and #2, Bozidar. :)
I was being a putz earlier and I regret it. (not the black Tuesday post. All the other stuff)
You were a putz to the king of the putzes. Putzi?
Maynerd
12-07-09, 06:21 PM
Like set up more of a dictatorship than he already did?
Lincoln was the worst president in US history.
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.Yeah. What was I thinking? Guy was obviously a jerk.
JL25and3
12-07-09, 07:08 PM
You were a putz to the king of the putzes. Putzi?Hey, you gotta go with what you got.
(PS - Putzim.)
Hey, you gotta go with what you got.
(PS - Putzim.)i'll file that away for the future.
My answer:
October 29, 1929
This concludes Monday's Question of the day
I'm sorry this caused some angst today. It was meant as a tribute to those who lost their lives at Pearl Harbor.
Post of the Day:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=6511690&postcount=3
Points Standings
JDPNYY 101
fredgmuggs 34
Soriambi & Mr Coffee 30
RYMASTER 28
BxBomber44 20
JL25and3 15
Trish 12
Yankchic22 & Stupid Flanders & b-ball-lunachick & GiambiRocks 10
Mantle'sMutt & CptCrunch & johnnyyankee 5
Maynerd 2
Negative Points Crew
Allybear & jlw1980 & Jersey Yankee (1)
smr15 (2)
Toaderly (3)
4bronxbombers (5)
Bozidar (27)
Feel free to carry on any discussions.
Please don't give any new answers to this QoD.
Feel free to discuss today's award.
fredgmuggs
12-08-09, 06:31 AM
My answer:
October 29, 1929
This concludes Monday's Question of the day
I'm sorry this caused some angst today. It was meant as a tribute to those who lost their lives at Pearl Harbor.
Post of the Day:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=6511690&postcount=3
Points Standings
JDPNYY 101
fredgmuggs 34
Soriambi & Mr Coffee 30
RY
MASTER 28
BxBomber44 20
JL25ad3 15
Tr
rish 12
Yankchic22 & Stupid Fnders & b-b-ball-lunachick & GiambiRoc 10
Mantl
tlMutt & CptCptCru & johnnyyanyan 5
Mayner
ne
Negati]Negative Points Crew[/U]
Allybear & jlw1980 & Jankee [CnkeR=rCOLOR=red](1)[/COLOR]
smr15 (2)[/Coader
Toaderly (3)[
4bronxb
4bronxbombers [COLOR=red]OR]
Bozidar
Bozidar [COLOR=red](27)[
[CO
[B][COLOR=darkred]Feel free to carry scussiodiscussions.
Please don't give nswers answers to this QoD.
[COLOR=navy]Feel free to discuss today's award.
It was a great question and I take responsibility for messing things up, JDP. I never wanted to be that guy and yesterday I was. Apologies to you and everyone - I should be better than that.
Today is another day.
4bronxbombers
12-08-09, 08:17 AM
It was a great question and I take responsibility for messing things up, JDP. I never wanted to be that guy and yesterday I was. Apologies to you and everyone - I should be better than that.
Today is another day.
We all have days like that Muggs. You are forgiven.
putz:D
It was a great question and I take responsibility for messing things up, JDP. I never wanted to be that guy and yesterday I was. Apologies to you and everyone - I should be better than that.
Today is another day.
No apology necessary muggs. You're really nice.
Stupid Flanders
12-08-09, 05:26 PM
Never heard of anyone besides Southern sympathizers claim that Lincoln was the worst President.I grew up in New Jersey and live in California. I'm far from a southerner.
Stupid Flanders
12-08-09, 05:27 PM
Yeah. What was I thinking? Guy was obviously a jerk.Words and speeches are nice, but I tend to judge people by what they do rather than what they say.
Remember, W. said he was a uniter, and that he was against foreign nation building.
JL25and3
12-08-09, 05:47 PM
I grew up in New Jersey and live in California. I'm far from a southerner.Southern California. QED.
penguin4
12-09-09, 12:30 PM
I grew up in New Jersey and live in California. I'm far from a southerner.
Part of New Jersey IS south of the Mason-Dixon line. :)
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