View Full Version : Phil Hughes 2009 Performance Thread
themgmt
03-20-09, 12:44 PM
Looking strong this Spring.
Rastven
03-20-09, 12:53 PM
Thru 2 today every out was a GO
Thru 2 today every out was a GO
Thats good to hear. In the minors he was known as a guy who induced a lot of ground balls and we didnt see anything resembling that when he was in the bigs. If he can pitch to his potential then we have one of the best spot starters in the league and a very good pitcher to fill Andys spot in 2010.
Yankee Tripper
03-20-09, 12:58 PM
I hope this thread belongs in the minors for most of the year. Nothing against Hughes and I hope he's a stud in the NYY 2010 rotation but quite frankly if he get's a lot of starts in means one of the 5 either got hurt or isn't really performing.
I do hope Hughes makes about 10 big league starts and performs very well in them but otherwise I'd like to see 30+ starts from the front 4 and 150+ IP form Joba which wouldn't leave a lot of innings for Phil.
But if someone does go on the DL I hope Hughes pitches as well as he has so far this spring.
Rastven
03-20-09, 01:02 PM
No SO's today thru 3 but he's 8-1 so he's getting them to hit into the ground.
The two hits so far have been off decent pitches according to the Twins announcers
YESSIR!
03-20-09, 01:46 PM
Hughes' final line from today:
4.1 IP | 3H | 1R | 1BB | 0K | 10-3 GO/FO
Nice to see all the ground balls, hopefully they were the result of work on his changeup, or something.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-20-09, 01:48 PM
I haven't seen many changeups from Phil. I really don't think he's throwing it, despite the Cashman quote.
Rocketbooster
03-20-09, 01:56 PM
No SO's today thru 3 but he's 8-1 so he's getting them to hit into the ground.
The two hits so far have been off decent pitches according to the Twins announcers
Did the announcers think he looked good? It's nice to see Phil bounce back from his last outing ....I would think the Yankees would have to be thrilled with his progress.
YESSIR!
03-20-09, 02:02 PM
I haven't seen many changeups from Phil. I really don't think he's throwing it, despite the Cashman quote.
In his post game interview two outings ago he said he threw a few and they felt good; he also said he was actively working on it. Are you watching his ST games?
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-20-09, 02:04 PM
In his post game interview two outings ago he said he threw a few and they felt good; he also said he was actively working on it. Are you watching his ST games?
I only saw the one that was televised. I didn't see any or any worth remebering.
Didn't hear the quote that he is actively working on, he should be focused on his change rather than his cutter.
Rastven
03-20-09, 02:05 PM
I haven't seen many changeups from Phil. I really don't think he's throwing it, despite the Cashman quote......only saw the one that was televised. I didn't see any or any worth remebering.
Didn't hear the quote that he is actively working on, he should be focused on his change rather than his cutter.
Ah, I see, you are basing your opinion on basically nothing
smckdwn989
03-20-09, 02:22 PM
Ah, I see, you are basing your opinion on basically nothing
some things never change around here... :D
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-20-09, 02:26 PM
Your right, some things definitely do not change. It's pretty funny.
Rastven
03-20-09, 02:34 PM
Your right, some things definitely do not change. It's pretty funny.
At least you're consistent. I'll give you that.
RB, the Twinkies announcers weren't raving but they weren't beating Phil up either.
He seems solid.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-20-09, 02:42 PM
Everytime I see him pitch, I see something different from what I hear when I don't see him pitch. When I don't see him pitch he is now throwing his changeup well and his velocity increases. Call me skeptical.
smckdwn989
03-20-09, 02:55 PM
Everytime I see him pitch, I see something different from what I hear when I don't see him pitch. When I don't see him pitch he is now throwing his changeup well and his velocity increases. Call me skeptical.
can i call you negative and pessimistic too? :D
Rocketbooster
03-20-09, 02:59 PM
At least you're consistent. I'll give you that.
RB, the Twinkies announcers weren't raving but they weren't beating Phil up either.
He seems solid.
Well, in any case (and thanks!) Phil was very happy :
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/03/20/spring-game-24-yankees-at-twins/
Phil did very well and feels good. I’m very happy that the change is coming along -soon enough, he’ll get the curve, FB and change going at the same time (if he indeed did throw the curve - should we believe Phil?) The FB command is very encouraging….
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-20-09, 03:00 PM
can i call you negative and pessimistic too? :D
Sure, wouldn't be the first time. As I mentioned above, I hope he's throwing his change, and forgetting about his cutter. I just didn't see it that was in his one start, maybe he's changed.
teknetic
03-20-09, 03:00 PM
Everytime I see him pitch, I see something different from what I hear when I don't see him pitch. When I don't see him pitch he is now throwing his changeup well and his velocity increases. Call me skeptical.
Phil Hughes: “I felt good about my fastball command today, and I felt good about my changeup. My curve wasn’t great, but was usable. I did throw some good cutters. Overall, I feel good. I feel strong. I’m ready to go.”
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/
smckdwn989
03-20-09, 03:05 PM
Sure, wouldn't be the first time. As I mentioned above, I hope he's throwing his change, and forgetting about his cutter. I just didn't see it that was in his one start, maybe he's changed.
this is spring training buddy. he's working on stuff.
Rastven
03-20-09, 03:06 PM
Sure, wouldn't be the first time. As I mentioned above, I hope he's throwing his change, and forgetting about his cutter. I just didn't see it that was in his one start, maybe he's changed.
You can't tell anything from a single spring start. Some guys don't even break out all their pitches.
Obviously he says he's working on the change but I don't think he should be doing that exclusively. The cutter will be an important pitch for him.
Great thing about today was the GO/FO ratio, he needs to keep that up
Yankee Tripper
03-20-09, 03:09 PM
Sure, wouldn't be the first time. As I mentioned above, I hope he's throwing his change, and forgetting about his cutter. I just didn't see it that was in his one start, maybe he's changed.
Why shouldn't he be working on both?
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-20-09, 03:11 PM
I guess he could work on both but his changeup hasn't made any improvements in many years. I think his changeup is a much more important pitch than his cutter.
Rastven
03-20-09, 03:40 PM
I guess he could work on both but his changeup hasn't made any improvements in many years. I think his changeup is a much more important pitch than his cutter.
Considering he barely threw in the minors by all accounts I'd say he's made great improvements in 2 years or less.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-20-09, 03:43 PM
He definitely threw it in the minors. I've seen clips when it looked like a plus pitch. "Great improvements?" Do you think his changeup is above average?
Rastven
03-20-09, 04:01 PM
My bad, he did throw it more than I thought in Trenton. My recollection of 06 is Phil throwing a steady diet of FB's and CB's.
"Changeup: When Hughes made the decision to not throw his plus slider and instead focus all of his breaking effort on the curveball, it quickly became clear that he would need a 3rd pitch. Enter the changeup. He throws a 78-79 mph changeup fairly well, although it is not as developed as his other pitches. That will change. The Yankees put him on a constant diet of changeups throughout the 2006 season, forcing him to throw it as often as his curveball. It worked. He is still a step away from throwing the changeup in any situation (he goes to his curve with men on), but he is getting a better feel for it. Hughes would benefit from a few innings in AAA to finally nail it down without the big league pressure on him. Right now it will sometimes make hitters look foolish or sometimes fall way out of the strike zone. If Hughes' track record is at all predictive, expect him to throw it as well as he does his fastball."
The question is, where did it go?
Is it a victim of the layoffs in 07 and 08 or was it never quite as good as scouts thought because AA and lower hitters aren't as adept at dealing with the offspeed stuff hence making it look better?
cyhughes22
03-20-09, 04:13 PM
If he could actually command it his change would be a plus pitch. He's capable but I think he's apprehensive to use it because he doesn't have great command of it. Then he doesn't throw it so his command of it doesn't improve. And since his command doesn't improve he's not confident in it and so on.
metalboy15
03-20-09, 04:20 PM
My bad, he did throw it more than I thought in Trenton. My recollection of 06 is Phil throwing a steady diet of FB's and CB's.
"Changeup: When Hughes made the decision to not throw his plus slider and instead focus all of his breaking effort on the curveball, it quickly became clear that he would need a 3rd pitch. Enter the changeup. He throws a 78-79 mph changeup fairly well, although it is not as developed as his other pitches. That will change. The Yankees put him on a constant diet of changeups throughout the 2006 season, forcing him to throw it as often as his curveball. It worked. He is still a step away from throwing the changeup in any situation (he goes to his curve with men on), but he is getting a better feel for it. Hughes would benefit from a few innings in AAA to finally nail it down without the big league pressure on him. Right now it will sometimes make hitters look foolish or sometimes fall way out of the strike zone. If Hughes' track record is at all predictive, expect him to throw it as well as he does his fastball."
The question is, where did it go?
Is it a victim of the layoffs in 07 and 08 or was it never quite as good as scouts thought because AA and lower hitters aren't as adept at dealing with the offspeed stuff hence making it look better?
He never had it.
Rocketbooster
03-20-09, 04:54 PM
You can't tell anything from a single spring start. Some guys don't even break out all their pitches.
Obviously he says he's working on the change but I don't think he should be doing that exclusively. The cutter will be an important pitch for him.
Great thing about today was the GO/FO ratio, he needs to keep that up
The cutter works for him and it's another pitch - I agree. I see no reason why he should junk it.
Rocketbooster
03-20-09, 04:59 PM
If he could actually command it his change would be a plus pitch. He's capable but I think he's apprehensive to use it because he doesn't have great command of it. Then he doesn't throw it so his command of it doesn't improve. And since his command doesn't improve he's not confident in it and so on.
Well he won't have to worry about the pressure to win in AAA - I'm sure the Yankees are not going to care whether he wins or loses at Scranton. I expect them to have Phil throw his change enough so that he does become a good pitch for him - they are trying to develop a major league pitcher here (and an excellent one at that), so throwng that change (or cutter, etc......) is a priority. Phil has an aptitude for pitching - he may not have command of the change now, but I believe that will come as he throws it more. As he throws it more, he will have increased command and with that comes increased confidence. When next we see Phil in New York, he's going to be a much more polished pitcher. I think it's imperative that he stay down in AAA for a couple of months at least - if a pitcher is needed for whatever reason, call up Aceves or Kennedy.
Yankee Tripper
03-20-09, 05:02 PM
This has probably been covered by why did he scrap the slider?
metalboy15
03-20-09, 05:03 PM
This has probably been covered by why did he scrap the slider?
Just wasn't a good pitch.
Plain and simple.
scooterfan
03-20-09, 05:23 PM
Just wasn't a good pitch.
Plain and simple.
In general, isn't it difficult to throw both a slider AND a curve?
Since the curve developed into a plus pitch, the decision to scrap the slider made a lot of sense.
Rastven
03-20-09, 05:53 PM
Plus arm/elbow stress.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-20-09, 06:05 PM
In general, isn't it difficult to throw both a slider AND a curve?
Since the curve developed into a plus pitch, the decision to scrap the slider made a lot of sense.
Not everyone has that problem, but Hughes himself said he has a problem throwing both (Joba for instance looks to be OK with throwing both). FB, curve, change is all he needs to be very good.
Rocketbooster
03-20-09, 08:22 PM
Not everyone has that problem, but Hughes himself said he has a problem throwing both (Joba for instance looks to be OK with throwing both). FB, curve, change is all he needs to be very good.
I'm not trying to be stupid, I honestly don't know the answer. Why is it so important to have a good change as part of Phil's repertoire? I understand the need for a 3rd pitch, but what makes the change-up so important?
JeterRodriguezSheff
03-20-09, 08:28 PM
I'm not trying to be stupid, I honestly don't know the answer. Why is it so important to have a good change as part of Phil's repertoire? I understand the need for a 3rd pitch, but what makes the change-up so important?
It is a simple yet effective pitch. If thrown correctly it is the best secondary pitch in baseball. If you hang a slider it is just a 80 mph fastball that the hitter more often than not will smack, same for a curve and every other pitch that relys on movement. Even if you leave a change in the middle of the plate, if the hitter isnt tipped off or guessing there is still a good chance the change in speed will fool him enough to make weak contact.
Rocketbooster
03-20-09, 08:38 PM
It is a simple yet effective pitch. If thrown correctly it is the best secondary pitch in baseball. If you hang a slider it is just a 80 mph fastball that the hitter more often than not will smack, same for a curve and every other pitch that relys on movement. Even if you leave a change in the middle of the plate, if the hitter isnt tipped off or guessing there is still a good chance the change in speed will fool him enough to make weak contact.
That makes a lot of sense - thanks!
I do like watching a good change (Edwar's is cool and CC threw a really good one a couple of days ago), but my fav pitch is the curve - a good one is a thing of beauty.
themgmt
03-20-09, 09:23 PM
I don't know why everyone is jumping on Javy. As soon as I heard Phil dropped the slider the first thing I thought/posted was that he needs to throw his changeup more. The cutter is a good pitch to have in your arsenal, but the change is an extremely effective pitch.
Melan-cynic
03-20-09, 10:09 PM
I think everyone can agree - in terms of the completion of his development - the changeup is the most important pitch for Phil this year.
Hughes's changeup has always been "good if he can command it", but every time I saw him throw it, it would always be like 5 inches to the right of the plate. I can't imagine the layoff helped that. Hopefully the new grip and steady work will change that.
BxBomber44
03-21-09, 02:25 AM
Hughes's changeup has always been "good if he can command it", but every time I saw him throw it, it would always be like 5 inches to the right of the plate. I can't imagine the layoff helped that. Hopefully the new grip and steady work will change that.
I feel like grip work for a pitcher is like a golfer changing his grip.... you just have to get comfortable, plain and simple. hopefully phil figures it out, he's looked good.
I feel like grip work for a pitcher is like a golfer changing his grip.... you just have to get comfortable, plain and simple. hopefully phil figures it out, he's looked good.
Yeah, pretty much.
But then unless your name is Tiger Woods you probably won't change your grip and then play competitively right away. So I think Hughes himself is expecting to head back to the minors for the bulk of 2009.
It's funny that he may turn into a No.3 starter. And last few years lots of people ripped the "prospect guru" when they said Hughes is a No.2 starter.
It is a simple yet effective pitch. If thrown correctly it is the best secondary pitch in baseball. If you hang a slider it is just a 80 mph fastball that the hitter more often than not will smack, same for a curve and every other pitch that relys on movement. Even if you leave a change in the middle of the plate, if the hitter isnt tipped off or guessing there is still a good chance the change in speed will fool him enough to make weak contact.
Just to add to this. Another reason the changeup is so effective is its trajectory is nearly identical to the fastball so batters can't be tipped off until it begins to drop (hopefully) just in front of the plate. By then the batters might already be swinging in front of it.
Even the best curveballs have a hump to its trajectory and in Hughes' case the hump was so big batters knew what they were facing well before it got to the plate.
A bad changeup without movement though is just a slow fastball and has probably the highest HR rate in the majors right up there with the fastball.
It's funny that he may turn into a No.3 starter. And last few years lots of people ripped the "prospect guru" when they said Hughes is a No.2 starter.Easy to say now when he gets injured two years in a row and loses velocity on his fastball.
He was a 20 year old with a 92-95 fastball, a great curve, a developing changeup, and 55% GB rate. He very well may have been a better prospect at 20 than David Price is now at 23.
He needs some more steady work before we can really assess where he is now.
A bad changeup without movement though is just a slow fastball and has probably the highest HR rate in the majors right up there with the fastball.
Santana's changeup doesn't have any extra movement, and he does well enough with it. Movement is nice, but only if you don't sacrifice the fundamental things on a change.
Santana's changeup doesn't have any extra movement, and he does well enough with it. Movement is nice, but only if you don't sacrifice the fundamental things on a change.
Johan's changeup, especially relative to his fastball, drops like a hammer and and even has a tail to it. It doesn't move as much as a typical palmball but Johan's changeup definitely has quite a bit of movement.
I agree though, fundamentally the changeup derives most of its effectiveness from messing up the batter's timing. Johan's is just a relatively bad example.
Still though, a changeup left up in the zone is routinely smashed even if the batter is fooled by the speed at first. I dont' have data on hand right now, but I am 100% sure the changeup has the second highest slugging, HR%, and BA against just behind the fastball.
Easy to say now when he gets injured two years in a row and loses velocity on his fastball.
He was a 20 year old with a 92-95 fastball, a great curve, a developing changeup, and 55% GB rate. He very well may have been a better prospect at 20 than David Price is now at 23.
He needs some more steady work before we can really assess where he is now.
To be honest, I think he is our future ace at that time too. I just think that it's interesting when I look back.
Johan's changeup, especially relative to his fastball, drops like a hammer and and even has a tail to it. It doesn't move as much as a typical palmball but Johan's changeup definitely has quite a bit of movement.
I agree though, fundamentally the changeup derives most of its effectiveness from messing up the batter's timing. Johan's is just a relatively bad example.No, it doesn't.
http://baseball.bornbybits.com/2008/Johan_Santana.html
There is a small 2 inch drop according to that, HOWEVER, I believe someone here actually mentioned he occasionally drops down and so that accounts for skewing the average on the pitch F/x data. Really, his fastball and change are very close in terms of movement.
No, it doesn't.
http://baseball.bornbybits.com/2008/Johan_Santana.html
There is a small 2 inch drop according to that, HOWEVER, I believe someone here actually mentioned he occasionally drops down and so that accounts for skewing the average on the pitch F/x data. Really, his fastball and change are very close in terms of movement.
I am surprised to see that but I guess all those times I've seen him bury it in the dirt has clouded my perception.
I stand totally corrected.
Guess I should stick to my day job. Off to Atlantic City I go to take some money from tourists.
I am surprised to see that but I guess all those times I've seen him bury it in the dirt has clouded my perception.
I stand totally corrected.
Guess I should stick to my day job. Off to Atlantic City I go to take some money from tourists.Itsalright. He does seem to bury it in the dirt a lot so it does build that perception unless you look closely.
therston
03-21-09, 07:31 AM
It's funny that he may turn into a No.3 starter. And last few years lots of people ripped the "prospect guru" when they said Hughes is a No.2 starter.
Who said he may turn into a #3 starter? Phil has the same projection he had when he came into the league, and his repertoire is better. He is 22 years old. David Price is 24 years old. Kids struggle. It happens. It is the adjustments that mark how good the player will become.
aeromac76
03-21-09, 08:50 AM
I have always thought a good change is the best pitch in baseball.
And I have several reasons for that..
1) It is easy on the arm. Pitchers do not get hurt (most of the time) throwing fastballs too hard, it is the repetitive motion and torque on the arm to throw a breaking ball. That puts hurlers, especially young ones, far more at risk.
A change is nothing more than a fastball motion with a different grip.
Some will try to "turn it over" but you can have a monster effective straight change without any additional arm strain/torque.
2) If your arm motion is good, same as your fastball, then even a so-so or bad change could throw a hitters timing off enough to get him to make an out.
Curves and sliders for instance, bad ones are seemingly telegraphed and get smacked good. Hanging breaking balls seem to cause a lot more damage than bad change ups.
3) Timing is everything. No less a man than Ted Williams said hitting is timing, and pitching is screwing up that timing. No better thing than a change up to keep a hitter off balance, It also makes a fastball that much better. Johan Santana is a strikeout machine. But his fastball is good, but not Joba like. However, his change is so damned good and thrown with such a deceptive motion, Johan could follow a change with a 90 MPH heater and it would seem like 110 MPH to a hitter.
4) Control. I have never pitched and do not know any ML pitchers personally, but I know a high school coach and I was friends with some college pitchers. All of them say it is easier to control the change because again, it is just a normal fastball motion and different finger grip. There is little or no pronating (rotation of the arm used to impart spin and thus, break) to get the pitch to be effective.
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 09:26 AM
Easy to say now when he gets injured two years in a row and loses velocity on his fastball.
He was a 20 year old with a 92-95 fastball, a great curve, a developing changeup, and 55% GB rate. He very well may have been a better prospect at 20 than David Price is now at 23.
He needs some more steady work before we can really assess where he is now.
Santana's changeup doesn't have any extra movement, and he does well enough with it. Movement is nice, but only if you don't sacrifice the fundamental things on a change.
I agree - we need to see how Phil does when he's healthy. Fortunately, it looks like he is......and he's made (and is making) quite a bit of headway. Scouts and experts that already changed their minds and claim he is at best a 3 or 4 won't change their minds, so at this point, I don't even care what they think. This time at AAA will make him a much better pitcher - it's why I feel that Phil needs to stay down there for a couple of months at least before being considered for a call-up. If Ian is doing decently, and a the big club needs a pitcher, bring him up.
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 09:32 AM
Who said he may turn into a #3 starter? Phil has the same projection he had when he came into the league, and his repertoire is better. He is 22 years old. David Price is 24 years old. Kids struggle. It happens. It is the adjustments that mark how good the player will become.
Scouts who have already changed their minds on Phil, so called experts like Law, etc.........these people have projected Phil to be at best a #3 based on what they saw last year (even though it was only a few starts and he wasn't healthy - plus I'm sure he had mechanical issues). The problem I see with this is that Phil didn't just lose his ability and he's certainly far from a finished product. I still am very confident that he will live up to the expectations we had for him, but we really just need to give him time.
Oh, and very interesting discussion about the change - I've learned a lot. Thanks!
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 09:43 AM
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/03/21/spring-game-25-tigers-at-yankees/
Poor Phil – I guess it has to be, though. He’ll get his work in the minor league camp and I’m sure the Yankees will be following him very carefully…...
cyhughes22
03-21-09, 10:11 AM
I'm not trying to be stupid, I honestly don't know the answer. Why is it so important to have a good change as part of Phil's repertoire? I understand the need for a 3rd pitch, but what makes the change-up so important?
In addition to what everyone else said, I would offer these examples. Let's take 3 of the most dominant pitchers in the last 10 years and focus in on what their second best pitch was.
Pedro Martinez who enjoyed probably the most dominant 5-7 year period for a pitcher in the history of baseball had a big fastball and great breaking stuff but his best pitch IMO was his filthy change.
Eric Gagne who probable steroid use and current suck aside was almost unhittable for 2 years had a big fastball and a disgusting change that came in 20 mph slower but looked exactly the same out of his hand.
Finally, Johan Santana. The most dominant pitcher since Pedro for a stretch of 4-5 years had a good fastball, good slider and a Bugs Bunny change.
The thing about the change that's so great is that it makes a hitter think more than they should at the plate. If I'm a hitter and I know I have to gear up for a power fastball but also that at any given time, what looks exactly like power fastball could come in 20 mph slower with movement, my job is a lot harder from a physical and mental standpoint. When Phil was throwing his no hitter in Texas he had a pretty good change that night and it got into hitters minds. His fastball was the worst pitch he had because he'd show them a change, they couldn't hit his curve and when they saw his fastball they'd just swing and thank god it wasn't the curve or change. That's the value of what his change could do for him. Plus his 92-94 mph fastball looks a lot faster if it follows a 78 mph change.
cyhughes22
03-21-09, 10:13 AM
I have always thought a good change is the best pitch in baseball.
And I have several reasons for that..
1) It is easy on the arm. Pitchers do not get hurt (most of the time) throwing fastballs too hard, it is the repetitive motion and torque on the arm to throw a breaking ball. That puts hurlers, especially young ones, far more at risk.
A change is nothing more than a fastball motion with a different grip.
Some will try to "turn it over" but you can have a monster effective straight change without any additional arm strain/torque.
2) If your arm motion is good, same as your fastball, then even a so-so or bad change could throw a hitters timing off enough to get him to make an out.
Curves and sliders for instance, bad ones are seemingly telegraphed and get smacked good. Hanging breaking balls seem to cause a lot more damage than bad change ups.
3) Timing is everything. No less a man than Ted Williams said hitting is timing, and pitching is screwing up that timing. No better thing than a change up to keep a hitter off balance, It also makes a fastball that much better. Johan Santana is a strikeout machine. But his fastball is good, but not Joba like. However, his change is so damned good and thrown with such a deceptive motion, Johan could follow a change with a 90 MPH heater and it would seem like 110 MPH to a hitter.
4) Control. I have never pitched and do not know any ML pitchers personally, but I know a high school coach and I was friends with some college pitchers. All of them say it is easier to control the change because again, it is just a normal fastball motion and different finger grip. There is little or no pronating (rotation of the arm used to impart spin and thus, break) to get the pitch to be effective.
Throwing a change is incredibly easy. I learned a Vulcan change in 2 weeks when I was in high school and after 2 weeks I could throw it in almost any count.
metalboy15
03-21-09, 11:21 AM
In addition to what everyone else said, I would offer these examples. Let's take 3 of the most dominant pitchers in the last 10 years and focus in on what their second best pitch was.
Pedro Martinez who enjoyed probably the most dominant 5-7 year period for a pitcher in the history of baseball had a big fastball and great breaking stuff but his best pitch IMO was his filthy change.
Eric Gagne who probable steroid use and current suck aside was almost unhittable for 2 years had a big fastball and a disgusting change that came in 20 mph slower but looked exactly the same out of his hand.
Finally, Johan Santana. The most dominant pitcher since Pedro for a stretch of 4-5 years had a good fastball, good slider and a Bugs Bunny change.
The thing about the change that's so great is that it makes a hitter think more than they should at the plate. If I'm a hitter and I know I have to gear up for a power fastball but also that at any given time, what looks exactly like power fastball could come in 20 mph slower with movement, my job is a lot harder from a physical and mental standpoint. When Phil was throwing his no hitter in Texas he had a pretty good change that night and it got into hitters minds. His fastball was the worst pitch he had because he'd show them a change, they couldn't hit his curve and when they saw his fastball they'd just swing and thank god it wasn't the curve or change. That's the value of what his change could do for him. Plus his 92-94 mph fastball looks a lot faster if it follows a 78 mph change.
Gagne's changeup was in the mid 80s.
Changeups are supposed to fool hitters into thinking fastball, too slow of a change up is going to be a problem.
The best changeups in the world are in the low to mid 80s.
Isn't Hughes's delivery remarkably consistent from pitch to pitch? That could only help him to developing a monster change.
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 11:24 AM
In addition to what everyone else said, I would offer these examples. Let's take 3 of the most dominant pitchers in the last 10 years and focus in on what their second best pitch was.
Pedro Martinez who enjoyed probably the most dominant 5-7 year period for a pitcher in the history of baseball had a big fastball and great breaking stuff but his best pitch IMO was his filthy change.
Eric Gagne who probable steroid use and current suck aside was almost unhittable for 2 years had a big fastball and a disgusting change that came in 20 mph slower but looked exactly the same out of his hand.
Finally, Johan Santana. The most dominant pitcher since Pedro for a stretch of 4-5 years had a good fastball, good slider and a Bugs Bunny change.
The thing about the change that's so great is that it makes a hitter think more than they should at the plate. If I'm a hitter and I know I have to gear up for a power fastball but also that at any given time, what looks exactly like power fastball could come in 20 mph slower with movement, my job is a lot harder from a physical and mental standpoint. When Phil was throwing his no hitter in Texas he had a pretty good change that night and it got into hitters minds. His fastball was the worst pitch he had because he'd show them a change, they couldn't hit his curve and when they saw his fastball they'd just swing and thank god it wasn't the curve or change. That's the value of what his change could do for him. Plus his 92-94 mph fastball looks a lot faster if it follows a 78 mph change.
That's really interesting - and why AJ should throw his change more? Imagine having to prepare for a 96 MPH and then get something else entirely? It seems like a good change-up, then, is the pitch that most often makes hitters look silly?
AJ only tends to throw his change to lefties.
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 02:01 PM
AJ only tends to throw his change to lefties.
Is the change work generally more effective against lefties than righties?
nnysiny
03-21-09, 03:16 PM
Is the change work generally more effective against lefties than righties?
definitely. righties will always throw more changes to lefties
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 03:25 PM
definitely. righties will always throw more changes to lefties
Thanks!
Stache Fan
03-21-09, 04:16 PM
That's really interesting - and why AJ should throw his change more? Imagine having to prepare for a 96 MPH and then get something else entirely? It seems like a good change-up, then, is the pitch that most often makes hitters look silly?
That, and a nice looping curve too. Or for maximum embarrassment, the eephus.
cyhughes22
03-21-09, 04:32 PM
That's really interesting - and why AJ should throw his change more? Imagine having to prepare for a 96 MPH and then get something else entirely? It seems like a good change-up, then, is the pitch that most often makes hitters look silly?
Well in AJ's case that's true to an extent but most importantly because he's shown that when his curve is off he doesn't have anything other than a fastball and he gets rocked. A change is probably the best secondary pitch to have but you don't need one for any reason other than to give hitters something else to talk about. If I know that all I've got to worry about is a hard fastball and a curve, my job is much easier than if I have to worry about A fastball, curve and change with 3 different breaks coming in at 3 different speeds. Baseball is such a mental game especially between hitter and pitcher that sometimes just the threat of a change is enough. If AJ can improve his change to where he can throw that in lew of the curve when he doesn't have his good command he's going to be unhittable.
As far as what makes hitters look the worst a change is probably the pitch but some guys can do it with curves or junk pitches like a knuckleball.
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 06:41 PM
That, and a nice looping curve too. Or for maximum embarrassment, the eephus.
The Yankees used to have a pitcher (Dave La Point?) who threw the Eephus.......that was pretty funny. Wow, I haven't seen that in years - I wonder if someone's got that on You Tube, lol
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 06:44 PM
Well in AJ's case that's true to an extent but most importantly because he's shown that when his curve is off he doesn't have anything other than a fastball and he gets rocked. A change is probably the best secondary pitch to have but you don't need one for any reason other than to give hitters something else to talk about. If I know that all I've got to worry about is a hard fastball and a curve, my job is much easier than if I have to worry about A fastball, curve and change with 3 different breaks coming in at 3 different speeds. Baseball is such a mental game especially between hitter and pitcher that sometimes just the threat of a change is enough. If AJ can improve his change to where he can throw that in lew of the curve when he doesn't have his good command he's going to be unhittable.
As far as what makes hitters look the worst a change is probably the pitch but some guys can do it with curves or junk pitches like a knuckleball.
I definitely agree with that - I love the tension between pitcher/batter, especially when the batter has fouled off several pitches and you are wondering if the pitcher will finally get tired and groove one or if he will finally put the guy away.
AJ still has a few starts left in ST - maybe he'll break the change out then. In any case, it's really nice to see Phil starting to have confidence in it.
Melan-cynic
03-21-09, 07:43 PM
Randy Johnson threw an eephus pitch last year at some point. I'd love to see that again if anyone has a link.
EDIT: Nevermind, here it is:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200807273209355
Rocketbooster
03-21-09, 07:49 PM
Randy Johnson threw an eephus pitch last year at some point. I'd love to see that again if anyone has a link.
EDIT: Nevermind, here it is:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200807273209355
LOL Thanks for posting...............the batter looks a bit surprised.
The Yankees used to have a pitcher (Dave La Point?) who threw the Eephus.......that was pretty funny. Wow, I haven't seen that in years - I wonder if someone's got that on You Tube, lol
Did El Duque ever whip it out while a Yankee? I've definitely seen him do it while with the Mets.
Did El Duque ever whip it out while a Yankee? I've definitely seen him do it while with the Mets.
Yeah I think he did it few times. I heard he did it to ARod once. Not sure though.
NYYRules#1
03-21-09, 09:53 PM
Did El Duque ever whip it out while a Yankee? I've definitely seen him do it while with the Mets.
Yup, he threw a few eephus pitches with us. Always entertaining - although I think one time he paid for it. I want to say someone on the Mets hit his eephus for a homer, but don't quote me on that. Maybe someone else would remember it better than I.
Yankees13
03-21-09, 10:04 PM
Yeah I think he did it few times. I heard he did it to ARod once. Not sure though.
If I remember correctly, he did it twice in the same AB or maybe game to A-Rod. He took the first one for a strike, and hit the second one 500 feet.
Hitman23
03-22-09, 01:06 AM
Not sure if this was posted
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-yankees-moves&prov=ap&type=lgns
Right-hander Phil Hughes (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7913/;_ylt=AsgxLyyI7Q_wetnZtBasbp6pu7YF) was optioned to the minors by the New York Yankees (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/nyy/;_ylt=ArVLGS3Et.z79ttYbKqJbu2pu7YF) on Saturday.
mystic7
03-22-09, 05:52 AM
Saw that on the MLB Network crawl.
Speaking of eephus pitches, here's one for you trivia buffs.
Who threw the "Folly Floater"? Since I'm not sure I'll be revisiting this thread anytime soon, I'll post the answer below.
Steve Hamilton.
JL25and3
03-22-09, 06:49 AM
No less a man than Ted Williams said hitting is timing, and pitching is screwing up that timing.Actually, that was Warren Spahn.
The Q Bomb
03-22-09, 07:29 AM
Saw that on the MLB Network crawl.
Speaking of eephus pitches, here's one for you trivia buffs.
Who threw the "Folly Floater"? Since I'm not sure I'll be revisiting this thread anytime soon, I'll post the answer below.
Steve Hamilton. I attended two games at which he threw it. Amazing. Does anyone remember El Duque throwing two in a row to A-Rod when he was with Texas? He stepped back from the plate on the first one and started to laugh. The second one he hit in the left field bleachers.
TommyK8
03-22-09, 07:50 AM
For those who would like to see an entertaining clip of Steve Hamilton's eephus pitch, the "folly floater" complete with some vintage scenery of the old Yankee Stadium (flag pole in the field of play) and commentary by the Scooter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFvp7kMraAw
aeromac76
03-22-09, 07:51 AM
Actually, that was Warren Spahn.
Spahn may have also said it, but I actually saw Williams say it in an interview..
The thing about a changeup, though, is it must be good. It's absolutely one of the best pitches to have in an arsenal, and a truly great one can make a pitcher. Even relievers, like Gagne, Hoffman, Foulke...just took otherwise good or mediocre (straight fastballs, etc) stuff and made them great. Edwar Ramirez is a good example here- his other pitches are mediocre or worse, yet he racks up tremendous K rates because the change is so good.
If the change isn't good, there's no sense in trying to throw it. It's actually a difficult pitch to master, because it's such a touch and feel pitch and unlike a fastball you absolutely cannot miss on location with a change and get away with it.
JL25and3
03-22-09, 09:59 AM
Spahn may have also said it, but I actually saw Williams say it in an interview..He got it from Spahn, then. You could look it up.
JoeShmo
03-22-09, 10:09 AM
One of the sickest curve balls in the big leagues.
Spamming not allowed Edited by moderator.
yankeebot
03-22-09, 10:13 AM
He got it from Spahn, then. You could look it up. Me me me!!! James Thurber, not Casey Stengal. :P
mystic7
03-22-09, 08:39 PM
For those who would like to see an entertaining clip of Steve Hamilton's eephus pitch, the "folly floater" complete with some vintage scenery of the old Yankee Stadium (flag pole in the field of play) and commentary by the Scooter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFvp7kMraAw
Thanks for this! One of my favorite memories of the "bad" Yankee era (65-75) was Steve Hamilton hitting a homerun in 1967. Up there with Rocky Colavito coming in in relief and winning a game in '68 :)
cyhughes22
03-22-09, 09:19 PM
How would you like to try hitting this? :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAwcel1Eb0s&feature=related
Did El Duque ever whip it out while a Yankee? I've definitely seen him do it while with the Mets.Didn't one of the Perez brothers (Pascual or Melido) bust out the eephus from time to time?
im confused why tomko continues to pitch against major league batters when hughes could of finished out st and then set down. Does anyone know the yankees thought process? perhaps minor league camp was starting or something?
Rocketbooster
03-23-09, 07:11 AM
im confused why tomko continues to pitch against major league batters when hughes could of finished out st and then set down. Does anyone know the yankees thought process? perhaps minor league camp was starting or something?
Yes, because Phil wasn't making the team, they were running out of innings for the pitchers and they needeed to stretch Tomko out a bit more.
BRNXBMRS
03-23-09, 07:53 AM
See ya soon Phil.
23jordan
03-23-09, 09:43 AM
He never had it.
I don't know....he threw three straight to Texeria of all people during that no-hit bid before he was hurt.
Ynkcpt23
03-23-09, 10:07 AM
Yes, because Phil wasn't making the team, they were running out of innings for the pitchers and they needeed to stretch Tomko out a bit more.
Exactly. Glad to see somebody talking about Phil in this thread. Well, RB, looks like it worked out just the way we expected, Phil on his way to AAA to prepare (and hopefully dominate) I can't wait until he comes back--you can't ask for better depth (we hope)
BroadwayBomber55
03-23-09, 12:16 PM
Good move to send Phil Hughes down to Scranton-Wikes/Barre. Hughes needs more seasoning so that he can be better when he's called up.
metalboy15
03-23-09, 01:05 PM
I don't know....he threw three straight to Texeria of all people during that no-hit bid before he was hurt.
Only AB that he's shown an above average changeup.
teknetic
03-23-09, 01:22 PM
I don't know....he threw three straight to Texeria of all people during that no-hit bid before he was hurt.
Not really a good thing that we're talking about that sole AB almost three years later.
JL25and3
03-23-09, 01:31 PM
Me me me!!! James Thurber, not Casey Stengal. :POf course.
That story is also where Bill Veeck got the idea for Eddie Gaedel.
CommerceComet
03-23-09, 03:53 PM
The Yankees used to have a pitcher (Dave La Point?) who threw the Eephus.......that was pretty funny. Wow, I haven't seen that in years - I wonder if someone's got that on You Tube, lolYou might be thinking of Dave LaRoche who pitched with the Yankees in the early 1980s. IIRC, his pitch was called the "LaRoche LaLob."
Rocketbooster
03-23-09, 04:55 PM
Exactly. Glad to see somebody talking about Phil in this thread. Well, RB, looks like it worked out just the way we expected, Phil on his way to AAA to prepare (and hopefully dominate) I can't wait until he comes back--you can't ask for better depth (we hope)
I never thought I'd be happy to see Phil in AAA, but I truly believe it's for the best. He's still so young - and look at the ML experience he's gotten under his belt. When he presumably makes the team in 2010 at 23 years old, he will be in a much better position than most 23 year olds because he will have that ML experience to fall back on - I think that's priceless.
Rocketbooster
03-23-09, 04:56 PM
You might be thinking of Dave LaRoche who pitched with the Yankees in the early 1980s. IIRC, his pitch was called the "LaRoche LaLob."
That's it - thanks! LOL I remember that........I guess with the bad teams we had back then, I was just glad to find something to laugh about. Ah - remember Andy Hawkins and his no-hitter loss in Detroit?
Sorry - back to our regularly scheduled Phil programming, lol
I never thought I'd be happy to see Phil in AAA, but I truly believe it's for the best. He's still so young - and look at the ML experience he's gotten under his belt. When he presumably makes the team in 2010 at 23 years old, he will be in a much better position than most 23 year olds because he will have that ML experience to fall back on - I think that's priceless.
totally correct. rushing this guy was kinda forced upon us a couple of years ago, he needs time to develop.
Yankee Tripper
03-25-09, 04:35 PM
You might be thinking of Dave LaRoche who pitched with the Yankees in the early 1980s. IIRC, his pitch was called the "LaRoche LaLob."
Ah, good times.
Didn't Mildo Perez break out the ephous pitch a few times with the Yankees as well in the early 90s?
Melan-cynic
03-25-09, 07:22 PM
Ah, good times.
Didn't Mildo Perez break out the ephous pitch a few times with the Yankees as well in the early 90s?
haha. Why is that name packed with so many vivid memories.
Oh, yeah because he's Melido MFing Perez..
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/melido_perez_autograph.jpg
http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/pp2.jpg
What a beautiful family...It's like a commercial for Soul Glo.. Where's Eriq La Salle at?
MylesThomas1927
03-26-09, 10:45 PM
That's it - thanks! LOL I remember that........I guess with the bad teams we had back then, I was just glad to find something to laugh about. Ah - remember Andy Hawkins and his no-hitter loss in Detroit?
Sorry - back to our regularly scheduled Phil programming, lol
I remember being at a game where Jim Rice waited on a crushed one of the LaLobs for a double down the leftfield line.
Also, I'm pretty sure Hawkins' "no-hit loss was in Chicago.
Rocketbooster
03-26-09, 10:57 PM
I remember being at a game where Jim Rice waited on a crushed one of the LaLobs for a double down the leftfield line.
Also, I'm pretty sure Hawkins' "no-hit loss was in Chicago.
I think you're right - for some reason, I always make this mistake. The early 90's were good times.............
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 12:13 PM
http://community.thetimes-tribune.com/blogs/yankees/archive/2009/03/30/monday-morning-players-arrive-hughes-not-starting.aspx
Weird - I hope he's ok.
aeromac76
03-30-09, 12:26 PM
http://community.thetimes-tribune.com/blogs/yankees/archive/2009/03/30/monday-morning-players-arrive-hughes-not-starting.aspx
Weird - I hope he's ok.
Me too.
Everyone seems to say he is..
Not to start any unfounded rumors, but a trade maybe?
Please note, I have heard nothing nor am I suggesting anything, just that when a player who is healthy is suddenly removed from game action, a trade is one possibility..
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 12:36 PM
Me too.
Everyone seems to say he is..
Not to start any unfounded rumors, but a trade maybe?
Please note, I have heard nothing nor am I suggesting anything, just that when a player who is healthy is suddenly removed from game action, a trade is one possibility..
I'd be shocked, but I don't have a good feeling about this.
Might just be re-shuffling the rotation or Hughes might have woken up today with pain somewhere. I dont think its anything big.
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 12:42 PM
Might just be re-shuffling the rotation or Hughes might have woken up today with pain somewhere. I dont think its anything big.
Then why the odd response from Nardi? He sounds defensive there...
Melan-cynic
03-30-09, 12:59 PM
This is very peculiar.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-30-09, 01:00 PM
Interesting. If it's a trade, I'd hope it's a big time name or prospect and includes Nady.
aeromac76
03-30-09, 01:20 PM
I'd be shocked, but I don't have a good feeling about this.
Ya know, for some reason, I don't either.
There are just no good reasons to see pitcher on his turn with Hughes' talent skipped.
One is injury, which is universally bad.
The other is a trade..
But again, I have no sources or legitimate reasons to believe a trade is percolating or has gone down. I just am going off what has been likely in the past.
Pitchers usually do not miss a turn in the rotation for reasons other than discipline, injury, of they have been dealt.
aeromac76
03-30-09, 01:20 PM
Then why the odd response from Nardi? He sounds defensive there...
Newman also said he is 100% healthy..
There is something strange here..
One thing I did suddenly come to fear after thinking about it.
We have seen Joba's velocity being down and while it has not yet been a concern, maybe it became one and Hughes is being readied for the Major League rotation?
Again, I have no foundation to suggest this, just that I am a chronic worrier.
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 01:22 PM
Ya know, for some reason, I don't either.
There are just no good reasons to see pitcher on his turn with Hughes' talent skipped.
One is injury, which is universally bad.
The other is a trade..
But again, I have no sources or legitimate reasons to believe a trade is percolating or has gone down. I just am going off what has been likely in the past.
Pitchers usually do not miss a turn in the rotation for reasons other than discipline, injury, of they have been dealt.
If he was dealt, though, why was he hanging around the park? .If they traded him for a CF, I'm going to be sick.
aeromac76
03-30-09, 01:22 PM
If he was dealt, though, why was he hanging around the park? .If they traded him for a CF, I'm going to be sick.
I dunno RB, I wish I did.
I am concerned right alongside you..
Someone on LOHUD said they heard a few days back on XM radio about the Yankees prepping an offer for Roy Halladay.
This is not even second hand rumors, it is like 5th hand rumors.
If there was one guy I might deal Phil for, he is it.
But again, just something I came across, no foundation.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-30-09, 01:25 PM
I'd give up one of flymick's testicles for Roy.
aeromac76
03-30-09, 01:28 PM
I'd give up one of flymick's testicles for Roy.
OMG the rotation would be insane..
Joba back to the pen then for sure, and I know that is not what people want to hear, but you'd have to do it.
Then you have CC, Wang, AJ, Roy, Andy (no special order)
Joba setting up Mo.
Score a run a day and we'll win 95 games.
But I am not going to even think about this because there is no way it happens.
If he was dealt, though, why was he hanging around the park? .If they traded him for a CF, I'm going to be sick.
I dont see that happening....unless it was for Grady Sizemore then that would be OK.
aeromac76
03-30-09, 01:35 PM
I dont see that happening....unless it was for Grady Sizemore then that would be OK.
Maybe..
But I doubt it is a trade, there has to be a more reasonable explanation.
kongull
03-30-09, 01:37 PM
Occam's Razor
aeromac76
03-30-09, 01:51 PM
Occam's Razor
Agreed wholeheartedly, but right now there are no explanations at all, much less a simple one!!
wang+cano=future
03-30-09, 01:51 PM
I dunno RB, I wish I did.
I am concerned right alongside you..
Someone on LOHUD said they heard a few days back on XM radio about the Yankees prepping an offer for Roy Halladay.
This is not even second hand rumors, it is like 5th hand rumors.
If there was one guy I might deal Phil for, he is it.
But again, just something I came across, no foundation.
I can't imagine that the Jays would ever trade Halladay within the division.
aeromac76
03-30-09, 01:54 PM
I can't imagine that the Jays would ever trade Halladay within the division.
Normally I'd agree, but they dealt us Clemens a few years back when he was still at the top of his game..
dadrumma
03-30-09, 02:05 PM
Normally I'd agree, but they dealt us Clemens a few years back when he was still at the top of his game..
ugh why would you post that? dont you know what kinda backlash youre gonna start causing. ugh
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 02:08 PM
Agreed wholeheartedly, but right now there are no explanations at all, much less a simple one!!
What is Occum's Razor?
What is Occum's Razor?
The Simplist explanation is usually the right one.
wang+cano=future
03-30-09, 02:15 PM
Normally I'd agree, but they dealt us Clemens a few years back when he was still at the top of his game..
Well there is no denying that one......If Halladay is for some reason available I would have zero problems offering them a Hughes-centered package. Ofcourse I think we are going down the MLB 09 The Show road though....
THEBOSS84
03-30-09, 02:19 PM
You guys are dreaming. It'll take Hughes/Joba/Action.
hughes2008
03-30-09, 02:26 PM
Maybe it is innocent and they just want Hughes to pitch two homes games, instead of the two road games. That way if they shift him to tomorrow, he would face Lehigh Valley at home vs. the road, and Trenton at home on the 5th.
YESSIR!
03-30-09, 02:31 PM
Maybe it is innocent and they just want Hughes to pitch two homes games, instead of the two road games. That way if they shift him to tomorrow, he would face Lehigh Valley at home vs. the road, and Trenton at home on the 5th.
This sounds pretty plausible to me. I doubt it's a big deal either way.
The Halladay talk is just an inane waste of key-strokes. No offense.
teknetic
03-30-09, 02:35 PM
Best pitcher in the league not named CC Sabathia..it'd take more than one of flymick's balls.
Riccardi is dumb, so maybe there's some hope :(
coulda awakened to projectile vomiting.
i highly doubt he's being dealt this late into ST.
flymick24
03-30-09, 02:47 PM
I'd give up one of flymick's testicles for Roy.
excuse me, but don't i have a say in this?!
(btw, i'd give up my entire sack for him)
primetime714
03-30-09, 02:58 PM
You guys are dreaming. It'll take Hughes/Joba/Action.
They would take Joba plus a couple B or C level pitching prospects to help fill out their staff. When you compare costs and potential future performance that's a no brainer for them as they look at the division and have to realize their chances of making it to the playoffs in the next couple years with Halladay are extremely slim. If they can get one of the best young pitchers in baseball they'd take him and not much else. The fact of the matter is they can't get that much.
I don't understand how the Jays could command a package of Hughes, Joba, and Action when you consider what the Twins got and were offered for Santana? Granted the asking price a division rival is going to have is obviously going to be more pricey but if the Jays are seriously considering trading him they probably understand that they don't have much of a shot to even make the playoffs with Halladay so does that make enough difference where they can command that much more? I don't think so because the Yankees obviously would never do that.
DEADSOX
03-30-09, 03:01 PM
I dunno RB, I wish I did.
I am concerned right alongside you..
Someone on LOHUD said they heard a few days back on XM radio about the Yankees prepping an offer for Roy Halladay.
This is not even second hand rumors, it is like 5th hand rumors.
If there was one guy I might deal Phil for, he is it.
But again, just something I came across, no foundation.
That would just be so unfair to baseball. I'd effing love it.
BTW, I'm down for throwing in a testicle or two.
NYYRules#1
03-30-09, 03:14 PM
Does anyone know who is scheduled to start in the ML games over the next week? He might be getting called up for a ST start right before the season. I don't know why though.
This is extremely odd though - it's not even like another AAA starter is going in his place, it's just 4 relievers pitching 2-3 innings a piece. This had to be a last-minute decision.
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 03:15 PM
The Simplist explanation is usually the right one.
Thanks - that means a trade?
Forget Halladay - it would never happen. I know the Jays traded Clemens to us, but this is different. Roy is THEIR guy - and he's not old like Roger was. They could never explain to their fans how they allowed Doc to beat their brains 4/5 times a year and proceed to devastate the division with that rotation. Same with the Sox.
If it's not Halladay, then Hughes should not be going anywhere. Why hasn't there been any trade buzz, also? This is Twilight Zone-ish.
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 03:16 PM
Maybe it is innocent and they just want Hughes to pitch two homes games, instead of the two road games. That way if they shift him to tomorrow, he would face Lehigh Valley at home vs. the road, and Trenton at home on the 5th.
Then why not just say that?
teknetic
03-30-09, 03:17 PM
They would take Joba plus a couple B or C level pitching prospects to help fill out their staff. When you compare costs and potential future performance that's a no brainer for them as they look at the division and have to realize their chances of making it to the playoffs in the next couple years with Halladay are extremely slim. If they can get one of the best young pitchers in baseball they'd take him and not much else. The fact of the matter is they can't get that much.
I don't understand how the Jays could command a package of Hughes, Joba, and Action when you consider what the Twins got and were offered for Santana? Granted the asking price a division rival is going to have is obviously going to be more pricey but if the Jays are seriously considering trading him they probably understand that they don't have much of a shot to even make the playoffs with Halladay so does that make enough difference where they can command that much more? I don't think so because the Yankees obviously would never do that.
The Twins were offered pretty good packages, Smith just happened to be a moron and take the worst of the bunch.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-30-09, 03:17 PM
Why hasn't there been any trade buzz, also? This is Twilight Zone-ish.
Cash moves in silence.
NYYRules#1
03-30-09, 03:17 PM
Are there any reports on what Joba and AJ were/are doing today? Could be an issue with one of them - I really hope not though.
themgmt
03-30-09, 04:25 PM
Sounds like baseless, wild speculation to me.
Would you guys do a Halliday trade if it cost:
1. 1 of them?
2. both of them?
YESSIR!
03-30-09, 04:42 PM
Would you guys do a Halliday trade if it cost:
1. 1 of them?
2. both of them?
Of who? I trade Joba and Hughes for Halladay right now w/o blinking. And I'm as big a cheerleader for the youngsters as you'll find. Doc is the best pitcher in baseball, which is why he won't be traded. There is nothing the Jays could hope to get that would equal him in value.
Of who? I trade Joba and Hughes for Halladay right now w/o blinking. And I'm as big a cheerleader for the youngsters as you'll find. Doc is the best pitcher in baseball, which is why he won't be traded. There is nothing the Jays could hope to get that would equal him in value.
Sorry. Yes, that's what I meant.
YESSIR!
03-30-09, 04:49 PM
Sorry. Yes, that's what I meant.
I didn't mean to be curt, lots of crazy names being dropped is all:)
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 04:50 PM
Would you guys do a Halliday trade if it cost:
1. 1 of them?
2. both of them?
I wouldn't have traded Hughes for Santana, so I wouldn't do it for Halladay. I really believe that this is moot because some guy on XM just decided to get fans in a tizzy by speculating. The Phil issue today is bothersome because Nardi and Mark Newman did not give us a straighforward answer........and if he's involved in a trade for a CF or something stupid like that (the Grady Sizemores of the world are not being traded), then I will flip my lid.
flymick24
03-30-09, 04:52 PM
it's amazing how fast people have latched onto this halladay rumor... it's baseless
I didn't mean to be curt, lots of crazy names being dropped is all:)
Didn't take it that way, at all.
I can see Phil being traded, but not Joba.
Trading Phil for a stud SP, would allow Joba to go to the pen, to take over for Mo when he's needed.
I am not necessarily advocating Joba to the pen, so (not aimed at YESSIR) keep your panties on.
I am just saying that if we get a stud SP, the need for Joba in the rotation lessens, that's all ;)
it's amazing how fast people have latched onto this halladay rumor... it's baseballess
Fixed :)
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 04:56 PM
it's amazing how fast people have latched onto this halladay rumor... it's baseless
I think it's baseless, too, but something is going on with Phil. As another poster said, why replace his innings with a bunch of relievers and not a starter? And then we can't get a decent answer from Nardi or Newman?
I think it's baseless, too, but something is going on with Phil. As another poster said, why replace his innings with a bunch of relievers and not a starter? And then we can't get a decent answer from Nardi or Newman?
If not Halliday, then who? (presuming it's only Phil, and not Phil+Joba)
CallOfTheCrow
03-30-09, 05:00 PM
If he's getting traded, wouldn't mind it being for some high-impact OF prospect.
THEBOSS84
03-30-09, 05:01 PM
If he's getting traded, wouldn't mind it being for some high-impact OF prospect.
Hughes and Melky for Schafer...
Hughes and Melky...
A Hughes/Melky package makes a great deal of sense.
themgmt
03-30-09, 05:04 PM
Of who? I trade Joba and Hughes for Halladay right now w/o blinking. And I'm as big a cheerleader for the youngsters as you'll find. Doc is the best pitcher in baseball, which is why he won't be traded. There is nothing the Jays could hope to get that would equal him in value.
Terrible idea.
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 05:06 PM
If not Halliday, then who? (presuming it's only Phil, and not Phil+Joba)
I have no idea. There's really no one feasible that I would want to trade Phil for (Hanley Ramirez is not being traded, so I'm not counting him). If we don't hear about a trade by tonight, then I have no idea why Phil was pulled from today's game. This is very, very disappointing to me.
themgmt
03-30-09, 05:07 PM
Hughes and Melky for Schafer...
Terribly disappointed in this.
Metroidman
03-30-09, 05:07 PM
lol @ Roy Halladay being the best pitcher in baseball
He's also 31. He will start a decline soon. Trading Joba for him? Give me a ****ing break
THEBOSS84
03-30-09, 05:08 PM
Terribly disappointed in this.
It was a proposal, it didn't actually happen.
lol @ Roy Halladay being the best pitcher in baseball
He's also 31. He will start a decline soon. Trading Joba for him? Give me a ****ing break
Who is better? I think hes the best pitcher in baseball. Nobody can match the movement on his fastball and his curve is absolutely filthy.
Metroidman
03-30-09, 05:10 PM
Johan Santana didn't retire
He may be on the Mets and NL now but Doc still cant touch him
hughes2008
03-30-09, 05:12 PM
Hughes is now scheduled for Wed.
Not to worry, Phil Hughes is healthy, still on the Triple-A roster and has not been traded. Pitching coach Scott Aldred said Monday afternoon that Hughes will now follow Ian Kennedy in the spring rotation. Kennedy pitches Tuesday. Hughes will pitch Wednesday. Why the switch?
"He just got a couple of extra days," Aldred said.
That's as much as Aldred elaborated. It could be that Hughes felt some sort of minor discomfort and the Yankees decided to move with extraordinary caution -- it's not like that would be something new for them -- but that's pure speculation on my part. Whatever the reason, all's well and Hughes will pitch in two days. He went through drills this morning -- throwing, running and fielding -- which he most certainly would not have done if there were any real cause for concern.
http://community.thetimes-tribune.com/blogs/yankees/archive/2009/03/30/monday-afternoon-hughes-scheduled-for-wednesday.aspx
teknetic
03-30-09, 05:15 PM
Johan Santana didn't retire
He may be on the Mets and NL now but Doc still cant touch him
Halladay's put up a 150 ERA+ the last 4 years in the AL East (882IP) It's a tossup, but saying he can't "touch" Johan is a pretty big reach.
THEBOSS84
03-30-09, 05:16 PM
Definitely not lol material.
Metroidman
03-30-09, 05:17 PM
In the last 6 years, Roy's put up a better ERA+ than Johan exactly 1 time.
OldYankeeFan
03-30-09, 05:20 PM
Of who? I trade Joba and Hughes for Halladay right now w/o blinking. And I'm as big a cheerleader for the youngsters as you'll find. Doc is the best pitcher in baseball, which is why he won't be traded. There is nothing the Jays could hope to get that would equal him in value.5 years of a cost controlled Joba + 5 years of a cost controlled Hughes for 2 years of $30M Halladay on top of the 200M we already have is overkill suicide pushing our 2009 payroll up to levels that will surely envoke punitive harm going forward. I can't even imagine the backlash. I'll pass.
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 05:27 PM
Hughes is now scheduled for Wed.
http://community.thetimes-tribune.com/blogs/yankees/archive/2009/03/30/monday-afternoon-hughes-scheduled-for-wednesday.aspx
That's great news.......but it's still strange that they won't elaborate on why he was shifted to Wednesday.
hughes2008
03-30-09, 05:34 PM
That's great news.......but it's still strange that they won't elaborate on why he was shifted to Wednesday.
Who knows. It could be a number of things. Maybe they want Hughes better lined up with Joba's starts in case they need Hughes to fill in at some point (Now Hughes' first game is 4/11, Joba's 4/12). Maybe S/WB didn't want Lehigh who is playing S/WB today and tomorrow to see the starters who will pitch against them when S/WB opens the season against LHV. Although that seems far-fetched. Or maybe Hughes does have a slight injury that they don't want to make a big deal about. :dunno:
President Kennedy
03-30-09, 05:35 PM
That's great news.......but it's still strange that they won't elaborate on why he was shifted to Wednesday.
Probably because something felt strained or tightened or whatever and the Yankees being the Yankees, the first thing they did was deny it was health related.
Rocketbooster
03-30-09, 05:38 PM
Probably because something felt strained or tightened or whatever and the Yankees being the Yankees, the first thing they did was deny it was health related.
Undoubtedly........especially with Phil's history.
1) It is Occam's Razor, not Occum's.
2) Anyone who would trade both Joba and Hughes in a package to get a 31 year-old pitcher is not a booster of "the youngsters".
NYYRules#1
03-30-09, 05:41 PM
Would you guys do a Halliday trade if it cost:
1. 1 of them?
Joba for Halladay? No way.
Hughes for Halladay straight-up? I'd consider it, but probably not.
Can't forget that taking on Halladay severely impedes both Joba's career. If Halladay were to come to the Yanks, he's taking Joba's spot in the rotation, forcing him back to the pen, and I'm sure if he spends all of 2009 in the pen he'd never be converted back into a starter.
Either way, this is never going to happen. Not even worth discussing, especially now that we know the reason Hughes was held back today if not because he's getting traded.
Yankee Tripper
03-30-09, 05:50 PM
Hughes for Halladay straight-up? I'd consider it, but probably not.
This is quite possibly the funniest thing I've read in a long, long time.
teknetic
03-30-09, 05:57 PM
In the last 6 years, Roy's put up a better ERA+ than Johan exactly 1 time.
Except..that wasn't the point. You made it look like as if Halladay couldn't carry Johan's jock, when he's easily been the best pitcher in the best division in the game the last 4 years running.
Johan picked a perfect time to get shipped to the NL.
Joba for Halladay? No way.
Hughes for Halladay straight-up? I'd consider it, but probably not.
Can't forget that taking on Halladay severely impedes both Joba's career. If Halladay were to come to the Yanks, he's taking Joba's spot in the rotation, forcing him back to the pen, and I'm sure if he spends all of 2009 in the pen he'd never be converted back into a starter.
Either way, this is never going to happen. Not even worth discussing, especially now that we know the reason Hughes was held back today if not because he's getting traded.Hughes for Halladay ain't never gonna happen because the Jays wouldn't even consider it, and I'm a pro-Hughes, pro-Joba and pro-Cash guy, but really you're talking about Roy Friggin Halladay. I don't care if you had to turn around and build a package with CMW and some peices to keep Joba in the rotation, or if Joba did end up going back to the pen. You'd have to do that deal.
Metroidman
03-30-09, 06:06 PM
Except..that wasn't the point. You made it look like as if Halladay couldn't carry Johan's jock, when he's easily been the best pitcher in the best division in the game the last 4 years running.
Johan picked a perfect time to get shipped to the NL.
lol ERA+ adjusts for leagues. And as for your quip about Johan picking a perfect time to go to the NL, Johan had a better ERA+ than Roy the year everyone started talking about his decline and it being a good thing he's in the NL
Yankee Tripper
03-30-09, 06:13 PM
lol ERA+ adjusts for leagues. And as for your quip about Johan picking a perfect time to go to the NL, Johan had a better ERA+ than Roy the year everyone started talking about his decline and it being a good thing he's in the NL
It adjusts for leagues but not player schedules. I'm guessing that Roy faced the Yankees & Red Sox, two of the better offenses over the last 6 years a few more times than Johan did but I'm too lazy to check game logs.
I agree with you that Johan is better than Roy. But that said Roy is one of a handful of pitchers who is in the disussion for best pitcher in baseball and a perenial pre-season favorite to be in the Cy-young discussion year in and year out.
teknetic
03-30-09, 06:26 PM
lol ERA+ adjusts for leagues. And as for your quip about Johan picking a perfect time to go to the NL, Johan had a better ERA+ than Roy the year everyone started talking about his decline and it being a good thing he's in the NL
Still doesn't make your statement about Halladay not being in the same league as Johan any less laughable.
lol ERA+ adjusts for leagues. And as for your quip about Johan picking a perfect time to go to the NL, Johan had a better ERA+ than Roy the year everyone started talking about his decline and it being a good thing he's in the NLERA+ doesn't adjust if one league is weaker than the other. It adjusts compared to the rest of the league.
Also, Santana had a very freaky year in '08 (http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/johan-santana-good-but-overrated). He wasn't remotely as good as you might initially think. I don't think I'd count him among the top 5 in baseball anymore.
eaganmafia
03-30-09, 06:41 PM
ERA+ doesn't adjust if one league is weaker than the other. It adjusts compared to the rest of the league.
Also, Santana had a very freaky year in '08 (http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/johan-santana-good-but-overrated). He wasn't remotely as good as you might initially think. I don't think I'd count him among the top 5 in baseball anymore.
I agree even with his era Johan's 2008 was down for his standards. But who the hell are the hell are 5 better pitchers then Johan now?
I can think of maybe 3 in CC, Timmy and Roy.
Melan-cynic
03-30-09, 07:52 PM
This is quite possibly the funniest thing I've read in a long, long time.
Seriously.
YESSIR!
03-30-09, 07:58 PM
2) Anyone who would trade both Joba and Hughes in a package to get a 31 year-old pitcher is not a booster of "the youngsters".
Being a "booster" at all costs is being myopic. First and foremost is the desire for the Yankees as an organization and as a team to succeed and win championships. If they can do that through developing an employing their own talent, I'm all for it. But when getting one of the highest impact players in the sport is an option, reconsidering your approach isn't exactly a bad thing.
To be clear, as I said earlier in the thread, I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell the Jays trade Doc in any case. I was just addressing the discussion.
Hughes+Melky+1 or 2 other prospects would be a bargain for the Doc.
Joba+Melky would work for me too.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-31-09, 07:39 AM
I would have a really hard time trading Joba+ for Halladay.
wang+cano=future
03-31-09, 07:51 AM
Hughes for Halladay straight-up? I'd consider it, but probably not.
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
aeromac76
03-31-09, 08:37 AM
I would have a really hard time trading Joba+ for Halladay.
Joba+? I agree.
But if it just took Joba and only Joba, well, then you have to do it.
Unless you think Joba can easily become a cheaper version of the best pitcher in baseball, because that is pretty much what Halladay is..
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-31-09, 08:41 AM
It would be hard for me. Also, keep in mind Roy is only signed this season and then next season, and then he is a FA.
aeromac76
03-31-09, 08:42 AM
It would be hard for me. Also, keep in mind Roy is only signed this season and then next season, and then he is a FA.
Gotta get an extension done.
I agree it is not a gimme call though, but you are right, you'd need to get a contract extended..
THEBOSS84
03-31-09, 08:43 AM
It would be hard for me. Also, keep in mind Roy is only signed this season and then next season, and then he is a FA.
If he had a year or two more on his deal, it would be an easy decision for me.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-31-09, 08:44 AM
Gotta get an extension done.
I agree it is not a gimme call though, but you are right, you'd need to get a contract extended..
Joba is kinda untouchable to me, they can really have anyone else in the system though.
THEBOSS84
03-31-09, 08:46 AM
Joba is kinda untouchable to me, they can really have anyone else in the system though.
I don't have an untouchable. We are talking about a pitcher with major health questions who has never pitched more than 100 IP at the ML level. FAR from a sure thing, of course, his talent is not questionable.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-31-09, 08:48 AM
Hence the "kinda."
yankeebot
03-31-09, 08:50 AM
I don't have an untouchable. We are talking about a pitcher with major health questions who has never pitched more than 100 IP at the ML level. FAR from a sure thing, of course, his talent is not questionable. Please elaborate because I don't think that at all.
THEBOSS84
03-31-09, 09:29 AM
Please elaborate because I don't think that at all.
You don't think he has health questions at all?
yankeebot
03-31-09, 09:32 AM
You don't think he has health questions at all?
Sure but no more than most young pitchers. Certainly not what I would consider major.
NYYRules#1
03-31-09, 09:36 AM
It would be hard for me. Also, keep in mind Roy is only signed this season and then next season, and then he is a FA.
Exactly. I'm not trading Hughes or Chamberlain for a two-year rental of Halladay.
If Halladay was signed another couple years, I'd give up Hughes in a heartbeat (still not Joba though). But why deal one of your top pitching prospects when you can sign Halladay in 2 years? And why deal that prospect when you have a good chance of failing to resign him in 2 years, especially if he doesn't like NY or doesn't have the same success that he had in Toronto here?
If you took the contract out of it, I'd certainly do Roy for Hughes straight-up. I just thought that the fact that Roy was an FA in 2 years was implied in my earlier post.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-31-09, 09:37 AM
I'd give up Hughes in heartbeat for 2 years of Roy and the inside track of extending him.
smckdwn989
03-31-09, 09:46 AM
Joba is kinda untouchable to me, they can really have anyone else in the system though.
agreed. if anyone was untouchable for me it would be joba. now if hanley for joba was offered straight up, i think i'd do it... but that's it really for me.
OldYankeeFan
03-31-09, 09:49 AM
I'd give up Hughes in heartbeat for 2 years of Roy and the inside track of extending him.I would too if it didn't have such a negative effect on the 2009 payroll and impede the progress of Joba (who he would replaced in the rotation this year). I also think Toronto wouldn't make that deal with two years left on Halladay's contract.
I'd prefer waiting until next season before doing that deal and have (an extended) Halladay replace Andy in the rotation. It also gives us another year to gauge Phil's worth going forward and we'd have enough money coming off the books to actually afford him.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-31-09, 09:52 AM
There's not a chance I'd pass up on Hughes for Roy. I'd make that work.
OldYankeeFan
03-31-09, 09:56 AM
There's not a chance I'd pass up on Hughes for Roy. I'd make that work.Yeah but there is not much you can do if you just can't afford him this year. I really believe we have committed as much as possible to this years payroll and is actually the primary reason we don't have Cameron (and his net 5M addition to this years payroll).
This is all very hypothetical anyway as there is no way that Toronto accepts Phil for two years of Halladay. No way.
JavyVazquezIsSick
03-31-09, 09:58 AM
I can't believe the Yankees can't afford him this year. I just can't imagine them not being able to make that work. Cameron and Halladay are apples and oranges.
kongull
03-31-09, 10:06 AM
I wouldn't trade hughes for halladay. Wait for him to hit FA.
OldYankeeFan
03-31-09, 10:15 AM
Cameron and Halladay are apples and oranges.Obviously I wasn't comparing the two. Just used Cameron to show we MAY have already reached the outer limits of what management decided for the 2009 payroll. And if the $$ aren't there to make this hypothtical trade (which would never be agreeable to Toronto anyway) work this year I would still consider doing it next year.
Metroidman
03-31-09, 01:52 PM
Wait wait. Even though Santana had a better year than Roy in 2008, he's not a top 5 pitcher but Roy's the best in the game? I find your statements laughable. He also bounced back in 09 to dominate. He's also younger than Halladay. Halladay's good but he's not as good as Santana. And please stop with the Yankees/Red Sox offense. The Yankees offense last year was crap. Also in their careers, Roy does a little better against the Yankees and Johan destroys him vs the Red Sox. Roy also had to face crap offense of the Rays and O's in that time too. Dont make the AL East to bet his godly offense when it hasn't been in some time. The Central has teams who have great hitting and the Rangers are always near the top in terms of hitting
I can't believe the Yankees can't afford him this year. I just can't imagine them not being able to make that work. Cameron and Halladay are apples and oranges.
amen, amen.
If somehow we can get Roy for just Hughes+, we'll find money for him and Joba goes to the pen.
Oh, well, that's squarely in the realm of dreams, white dreams.
flymick24
03-31-09, 07:28 PM
we need to stop this halladay talk.. people are gonna start thinking these are real rumors instead of just some fanboy jerkoff material
besides, halladay won't be traded until this year's trade deadline anyway
Metroidman
03-31-09, 07:29 PM
Joba goes to AAA to be a starter. The hell with the pen
we need to stop this halladay talk.. people are gonna start thinking these are real rumors instead of just some fanboy jerkoff material
besides, halladay won't be traded until this year's trade deadline anyway
Yeah, more importantly, Jays will demand get a sick package better than anything we're likely to offer.
nnysiny
03-31-09, 08:06 PM
so anyway, can we trade Hughes+ for Pujols yet?
ThePinStripes
03-31-09, 09:03 PM
amen, amen.
If somehow we can get Roy for just Hughes+, we'll find money for him and Joba goes to the pen.
Oh, well, that's squarely in the realm of dreams, white dreams.
Pettitte to the pen?
Pettitte to the pen?
I could see that. But I think Joba dominating 8th inning would help us more at least this year. But then keeping him in the rotation might be better in the long run.
NYYFutures17
04-01-09, 12:11 AM
Don't worry, Burnett will go down with an injury. Phil will get a chance in '09 without a single starter being moved to the bullpen
prclogair
04-01-09, 01:38 AM
Hughes + Wang for Pujols.....
Wait wait. Even though Santana had a better year than Roy in 2008, he's not a top 5 pitcher but Roy's the best in the game? I find your statements laughable. He also bounced back in 09 to dominate. He's also younger than Halladay. Halladay's good but he's not as good as Santana. How about you actually read the article this time.
Santana had one of the biggest advantageous differences between his ERA and FIP. That doesn't just happen for no reason. His ERA does not reflect his season accurately last year. He's declining in every aspect.
ArodMVP217
04-01-09, 07:56 AM
Hughes + Wang for Pujols.....
To left field?
aeromac76
04-01-09, 08:14 AM
Hughes + Wang for Pujols.....
We have the 2nd best first baseman in baseball behind Albert, no need to trade for a position we have filled easily.
If you want to deal those two, talk to the Indians about Sizemore+...
Metroidman
04-01-09, 11:05 AM
How about you actually read the article this time.
Santana had one of the biggest advantageous differences between his ERA and FIP. That doesn't just happen for no reason. His ERA does not reflect his season accurately last year. He's declining in every aspect.
Except for you know him dominating again this year
Also before last season, you could've made a better case for a Halladay decline
ThunderFan
04-01-09, 11:21 AM
Yeah, more importantly, Jays will demand get a sick package better than anything we're likely to offer.We aren't getting Halladay. Just hope he goes to the NL...
NYYRules#1
04-01-09, 11:27 AM
We aren't getting Halladay. Just hope he goes to the NL...
Agreed. Luckily, I doubt Boston is getting him either.
It's the Angels and the Mets I'm scared of.
(And yes, the Mets might be in the NL, but we still face them just as many times as we face an AL Central team. The only difference between him being on an AL Central team and the Mets is that he can't affect us in the Wild Card with the Mets.)
ThePinStripes
04-01-09, 12:00 PM
To left field?
That's the last of our concerns. We would FIND a place for him.
We aren't getting him though. Give it up
ThePinStripes
04-01-09, 12:03 PM
Anyone have the video of Hughes throwing a curveball where the batter ducked (youk?) and it was a called strike?
Yankee Tripper
04-01-09, 12:04 PM
Hughes + Wang for Pujols.....
Throw in Cano and Albert can be our second baseman.;)
ThePinStripes
04-01-09, 12:09 PM
HAHAHA! Done! Worst defense, but damned if a lineup of Jeter, Damon, Arod, Puljos, Teix doesn't strike enough fear into a starting pitcher to cause tears, heart attacks, seizures or some combination thereof.
Oh, to dream.
CallOfTheCrow
04-01-09, 02:42 PM
Boston will get Halladay for Lowrie. If they want Rios though, they'd have to throw in Tazawa of course. He is going to be an uber ace after all according to Gammons.
Melan-cynic
04-01-09, 02:58 PM
Boston will get Halladay for Lowrie. If they want Rios though, they'd have to throw in Tazawa of course. He is going to be an uber ace after all according to Gammons.
lol. but of course.
aeromac76
04-01-09, 03:21 PM
Boston will get Halladay for Lowrie. If they want Rios though, they'd have to throw in Tazawa of course. He is going to be an uber ace after all according to Gammons.
Dunno, Bud Selig might invoke the best interests of baseball and get the Jays to throw in, at the Jays' own expense, Vernon Wells.
Gotta make sure the Sox get a fair shake..
THEBOSS84
04-01-09, 04:35 PM
.....
Greg (staten Island, NY): Any news of the phil hughes/ Melky trade that buster broke out today. I think it was for Sherzer, Reynolds and a third prospect. What do you think? I am sad to see Phil go because I want him to succeed in the bronx this year.
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Greg, There's not a word of this trade on our Web site from Buster, so I'm wondering where this rumor came from. Until I hear otherwise, I'll file it under "urban myth.''
Snatch Catch
04-01-09, 04:36 PM
.....
It's April f*cking first.
THEBOSS84
04-01-09, 04:37 PM
I didn't actually believe that.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-01-09, 05:01 PM
:lol: The D-Backs wouldn't trade for Hughes and Melky for Scherzer by himself.
kongull
04-01-09, 05:15 PM
:lol: The D-Backs wouldn't trade for Hughes and Melky for Scherzer by himself.
Only cause the Dbacks suck at trades.
prclogair
04-01-09, 07:25 PM
It makes yankees exciting are their fearsome scoring capability....not the defense ...i won't see much difference on moving around pujols and teixeira at 1st or 2nd base.....
As much as I'd like both Pujols and Tex in my lineup, I don't think either one has the range to be anywhere but 1B in the infield.
hughes2008
04-01-09, 09:07 PM
Well, as I thought might be the case, Hughes is set to pitch his first game on April 12th, lining him up on the same days in AAA that Joba will be pitching in the Bronx.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-01-09, 09:22 PM
Only cause the Dbacks suck at trades.
Wowsa
CallOfTheCrow
04-01-09, 09:27 PM
Per Chad Jennings:
The first Triple-A Pirates hitter Phil Hughes faced on Wednesday came to the plate about the same time Alfredo Aceves started making his first-inning warm up tosses on the Double-A field. Hughes finished his inning before Aceves faced his first batter. Ten pitches, nine strikes, three strikeouts. That's how Hughes started his day.
“Everything is kind of where it needs to be,” Hughes said. “It’s been a slow progression through the spring trying to get my pitch count up. My last (spring start) should be up around 100 pitches. I feel good. I feel pretty strong, right where I need to be. I’m looking forward to getting out of Florida.”
All told, Hughes struck out seven and allowed one run through 5.1 innings. He walked a batter and gave up five hits. One was a bunt single, one was a bloop single to left, the walk came when he missed on back-to-back breaking balls. The two hard-hit balls off Hughes were triples hit to the 410-foot gaps on the Pirates massive minor league field. His fastball and curveball seemed sharp, and Hughes threw some nice cutters and changeups. He said he feels even better than he did at the end of last season when he plowed through the Interanational League playoffs, made two solid big league starts down the stretch and struck out 38 batters in 30 innings in the hitter-friendly Arizona Fall League.
"Cutter and changeup is something I really want to get going," he said. "That will be a big pitch for me, both of those. I don't think they're ever going to be go-pitches for me, just something to compliment my fastball and curveball."
Hughes went into more detail about how he uses the cutter: "I can throw it 2-0, 3-1, throw it right down the middle when they’re thinking fastball and it moves just a little bit,” he said. “That’s kind of the purpose of the pitch, not really to put guys away with. Sometimes I’ll run it in on a lefty and try to get the guy to hit a weak ground ball or something, but for the most part it’s for when I’m behind in the count and they’re looking for a pitch to hit.”
BxBomber44
04-01-09, 09:34 PM
With our brutal sched. he'll see a lot of action.
ArodMVP217
04-01-09, 09:40 PM
HAHAHA! Done! Worst defense, but damned if a lineup of Jeter, Arod, Puljos, Teix, Manny (DH) doesn't strike enough fear into a starting pitcher to cause tears, heart attacks, seizures or some combination thereof.
Oh, to dream.
fixed
hughes2008
04-01-09, 09:44 PM
Yup, Hughes will definitely see action with the big club.
Good to see he is throwing the cutter, and especially the changeup and still had 7 K's. The big knock on him in Fall league was he didn't throw the changeup enough even though he was supposed to.
Rocketbooster
04-01-09, 10:15 PM
This is really good news. I love that new power curve of Phil’s and I’m thrilled that he’s working on his changeup. He’s got an aptitude for pitching – I’ve never lost confidence that his change would improve. I love the cutter for him…. When he comes back up to NY, AJ and Mo can help him with his curve and cutter – very nice teachers to have
freebubba
04-02-09, 10:50 AM
We have the 2nd best first baseman in baseball behind Albert, no need to trade for a position we have filled easily.
If you want to deal those two, talk to the Indians about Sizemore+...
I'm listening...:D
This is really good news. I love that new power curve of Phil’s and I’m thrilled that he’s working on his changeup. He’s got an aptitude for pitching – I’ve never lost confidence that his change would improve. I love the cutter for him…. When he comes back up to NY, AJ and Mo can help him with his curve and cutter – very nice teachers to have
what has he done that's new?
Rocketbooster
04-03-09, 07:24 AM
what has he done that's new?
The power curve is new - last we saw his curve (before spring), it was (as others have said) loopier. I liked that curve, but this one seems to work for him very well.
The power curve is new - last we saw his curve (before spring), it was (as others have said) loopier. I liked that curve, but this one seems to work for him very well.
sounds good.
OldYankeeFan
04-03-09, 08:57 AM
The power curve is new - last we saw his curve (before spring), it was (as others have said) loopier. I liked that curve, but this one seems to work for him very well.Yep, that "loopier" curve started at a different trajectory than his FB. What the change did is try to have the curve start at the SAME trajectory as the FB as to not allow a hitter to recognize the curve as quickly, thereby giving them less time to make an adjustment.
Rocketbooster
04-03-09, 10:02 AM
Yep, that "loopier" curve started at a different trajectory than his FB. What the change did is try to have the curve start at the SAME trajectory as the FB as to not allow a hitter to recognize the curve as quickly, thereby giving them less time to make an adjustment.
I really learn a lot when we have discussions such as these. I love curve balls and always think of those loopier ones, the one that seem to drop off a plate. However, watching AJ throw his power curves, I see that they can be just deadly. It makes a lot of sense - Phil seems to have picked this up fairly quickly.
Yep, that "loopier" curve started at a different trajectory than his FB. What the change did is try to have the curve start at the SAME trajectory as the FB as to not allow a hitter to recognize the curve as quickly, thereby giving them less time to make an adjustment.
this is a good point. i used to play with a guy who threw two curve balls. which he used in a particular game was decided by how his fastball (well, slow straight ball) looked that day. if he couldn't keep up down he'd throw a higher curve.
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