View Full Version : Phil Hughes 2009 Performance Thread
yankeeman61
04-28-09, 09:03 PM
The thing is, if he gets some of those calls that were clearly strike outs in the first three innings, there is a good chance he goes 7. Im pissed about that. The ump pretty much took an inning away from him. I mean he was pretty consistent for both sides, but still.
I've read questionable complaints about Phil getting squeezed in the past but tonight it was valid. He could have had 10-15 less pitches if not for the plate umpire.
Was he throwing a changeup or cutter?
TheGameEpisode2
04-28-09, 09:06 PM
Talk of Joba back to the pen is a bit premature. If Phil can string a few good starts together and Wang comes back and resembles a major leaguer, then we can talk.
But if Joba pitches some good to great starts then...
We have a great problem on our hands, huh? :D
Can't talk about putting JOBA in the pen right now, we desperately need him starting since Wang isn't here. That only becomes a serious discussion again (one that the Yanks may actually partake in) if Hughes pitches well, Wang comes back (and pitches well) and if Melancon can't get major league hitters out yet.
yankeeman61
04-28-09, 09:06 PM
Was he throwing a changeup or cutter?
Not many, but more cutters than changeups. He had great command of his fastball
ArodEra
04-28-09, 09:09 PM
:clap::clap:
Great game by Hughes. Let's hope this is the start of something big.
Not many, but more cutters than changeups. He had great command of his fastball
So he'll be fine with the cutter as his third and throw an occasional changeup...
YankeeStripes
04-28-09, 09:11 PM
I said he would get beat down and be done by the 3rd inning. Instead, he throws his best game of his career.
I've never loved being wrong this much!
JeterRodriguezSheff
04-28-09, 09:12 PM
Not many, but more cutters than changeups. He had great command of his fastball
And thats the the thing. He was 93, but throwing 2 seamers with movement. I remember everyone talking about him throwing 93-96 in the futures game, but not only was that just for an inning, those were straight fastballs, these fastballs had some tailing action which is sometimes more useful than the extra velocity.
JeterRodriguezSheff
04-28-09, 09:13 PM
So he'll be fine with the cutter as his third and throw an occasional changeup...
I still think he needs a quality change to become an ace, but if he keeps everything the same, he is a solid major league pitcher.
cyhughes22
04-28-09, 09:14 PM
Is anyone else a bit confused that gameday was registering his fastball as a 2seamer? I mean it had the good movement that he was known for but I thought that it was his 4seamer.
cyhughes22
04-28-09, 09:16 PM
I still think he needs a quality change to become an ace, but if he keeps everything the same, he is a solid major league pitcher.
His cutter is a huge pitch for him because he seems to be able to command it even when the straight FB isn't working. I agree though that to really be top of the rotation caliber he's got to improve his change and actually feel comfortable throwing it. He should really talk to Edwar and see if he can learn it from him.
Rastven
04-28-09, 09:18 PM
6 Ks, 2 BB and good velocity. That's the Phil we all figured we'd be getting.
President Kennedy
04-28-09, 09:19 PM
LOL - I was dead wrong and never more happy to be so
haha...good for you. Let's hope Joba picks up Phil's baton tonight and our kids right the ship. Wouldn't that be something?
JeterRodriguezSheff
04-28-09, 09:21 PM
haha...good for you. Let's hope Joba picks up Phil's baton tonight and our kids right the ship. Wouldn't that be something?
It would piss all the haters off. I cant wait to listen to how Boomer and Carton try to rationalize it tomorrow on my way to class.
SLURPEE
04-28-09, 09:23 PM
It would piss all the haters off. I cant wait to listen to how Boomer and Carton try to rationalize it tomorrow on my way to class.
You actually listen to those 2 douch bags?
teknetic
04-28-09, 09:27 PM
Someone needs to get a screencap of his delivery and compare it to his start against Toronto last year.
JeterRodriguezSheff
04-28-09, 09:28 PM
You actually listen to those 2 douch bags?
The guy i car pool in with likes them, so i put up with them most of the time.
I dont remember more than 2 or 3 changeups. his command in general was immensely better. great curve (although thats really been his most consistent pitch, it was basically the only thing he threw well last year). more fastball life. tons of cutters, man does he love that pitch
Real. Deal. Holyfield.
The fastball location was much improved, and I like how he mixed the slow curve with the tighter more aggressive curve.
Again, before anyone goes crazy - this is what he's capable of, but not what we'll see every time out. He's going to get hit in some starts. But you know he's on when he gets professional hitters like Polanco literally stepping out of the box and turning their back on a called strike with the curveball.
smckdwn989
04-28-09, 09:40 PM
the cutter really has emerged as a very effective pitch. combine that with very good control of his 4 seamer and a types of curveballs and I am excited.
YanksFan1992
04-28-09, 09:41 PM
Talk of Joba back to the pen is a bit premature. If Phil can string a few good starts together and Wang comes back and resembles a major leaguer, then we can talk.
No we can't ever talk. Unless Joba is absolutely dreadful as a starter there is not a single valid reason to put him in the bullpen.
YanksFan1992
04-28-09, 09:41 PM
This is what happens when we stick with our homegrown players instead of trading them immediately if they don't pan out.
Excellent job, Phil. :clap:
Yankee Fan in Boston
04-28-09, 09:42 PM
Real. Deal. Holyfield.
The fastball location was much improved, and I like how he mixed the slow curve with the tighter more aggressive curve.
Again, before anyone goes crazy - this is what he's capable of, but not what we'll see every time out. He's going to get hit in some starts. But you know he's on when he gets professional hitters like Polanco literally stepping out of the box and turning their back on a called strike with the curveball.
And you really can't expect more from a guy who is 22. But it will be fun to see him mature
cyhughes22
04-28-09, 09:43 PM
Someone needs to get a screencap of his delivery and compare it to his start against Toronto last year.
I don't have a cap but I'd bet that it's slightly different. Tonight was probably the best I've ever seen him throw the ball at the big league level other than that night in Texas. This was almost the Phil Hughes that people like me who watched him in the minors thought we would have at this point. He didn't have great command of his curve tonight and he didn't throw many changeups but I'm confident that will change as the year goes on. I also can't overstate how great a game Molina called for him. This was a really nice end to what had been a pretty crappy day for me personally.
The Q Bomb
04-28-09, 09:45 PM
LOL - I was dead wrong and never more happy to be so Rocket - I was thinking about you throughout the entire game. Congrat on a great game by "your boy"!
Brooklyn Yankee Fan
04-28-09, 09:46 PM
Great outing (season debut, at that) for Phil tonight. I'm looking forward to his next start against the Angels.
DEADSOX
04-28-09, 09:48 PM
Hughes looked great tonight, was more efficient then he appeared to be, he was getting squeezed pretty bad. Looks like we'll be seeing him again in another 5 days.
kongull
04-28-09, 09:48 PM
one of the proud few who never gave up on phil.
jughead
04-28-09, 09:49 PM
I'm really surprised at people's surprise. I love Joba, don't get me wrong, but Hughes was THE pitching prospect 2 years ago. How soon people forget.
YESSIR!
04-28-09, 09:50 PM
Is anyone else a bit confused that gameday was registering his fastball as a 2seamer? I mean it had the good movement that he was known for but I thought that it was his 4seamer.
All of the pitchers had their FBs registered as 2-seamers on my gameday as well. Not sure what happened there.
YanksFan1992
04-28-09, 09:56 PM
one of the proud few who never gave up on phil.
We should make a club. :lol:
StatenIslandYankee
04-28-09, 09:58 PM
Great game Phil
CommerceComet
04-28-09, 10:00 PM
Outstanding performance tonight by Hughes. I'm always a little skeptical of highly-touted prospects but you can't argue with this performance. Just outstanding.
Melancon really pitched well, too, although he did throw four balls. He'll have to work on that. ;)
It was nice to see the guy we heard about all those years make an appearance tonight. Had everything working, fastball velocity was way better than anything we saw last year or in 07. Cutter was a nice pitch and he was getting his curve over for strikes. Good show.
I said he would get beat down and be done by the 3rd inning. Instead, he throws his best game of his career.
I've never loved being wrong this much!
I don't know why you would think he would get beat down in the first place. While his debut last year was horrible, he was injured. It does underscore one thing, the incredible amount of patience that is required to develop pitching. I think Hughes will be just fine, as long as he stays healthy.
b-ball-lunachick
04-28-09, 10:04 PM
I thought Phil was taking his spot? :dunno:
I think Phil will do well:
6.1 IP, 5 H, 3 BB, 2 ER, 6K and a Win. :)
Okay I'm quoting myself because I wasn't THAT far off:
6IP, 2 H, 2 BB, 0 ER, 6 Ks and a Win.
I won my bet. :)
smckdwn989
04-28-09, 10:04 PM
Okay I'm quoting myself because I wasn't THAT far off:
6IP, 2 H, 2 BB, 0 ER, 6 Ks and a Win.
I won my bet. :)
i said 6IP 2er. And he was even BETTER
Rocketbooster
04-28-09, 10:13 PM
haha...good for you. Let's hope Joba picks up Phil's baton tonight and our kids right the ship. Wouldn't that be something?
Even had the Yankees lost, I still would have been pretty happy. I know that sounds odd, but that's how important Phil is to the future of this organization. I'm really just thrilled for the kid because the last two years have been lost ones - amazing that he's just 22.
I agree that it would be huge for Joba to go out there and pitch well. It's important that the Yankees start feeling good about themselves again and just go out and do their thing, regardless of what the Sox are doing. All they have to do is keep themselves within striking distance......the Sox can't play better than they are now, so just keep it respectable. Also, I want the kids to strike a blow for the farm system. I'm tired of hearing about how old the team is and how we never develop anyone.
Rocketbooster
04-28-09, 10:16 PM
Real. Deal. Holyfield.
The fastball location was much improved, and I like how he mixed the slow curve with the tighter more aggressive curve.
Again, before anyone goes crazy - this is what he's capable of, but not what we'll see every time out. He's going to get hit in some starts. But you know he's on when he gets professional hitters like Polanco literally stepping out of the box and turning their back on a called strike with the curveball.
I don't mind if he gets hit - every young pitcher does - but Phil is clearly healthy and a much more complete pitcher than he was before. He'll learn from his bad outings also, so that's not a bad thing. What I liked hearing on the post-game show was how Phil made adjustments - his curve got better as the game went along, that sort of thing. I saw that clip of Polanco - hilarious - that curve was nasty.
Rocketbooster
04-28-09, 10:19 PM
Rocket - I was thinking about you throughout the entire game. Congrat on a great game by "your boy"!
Thanks! LOL I came home from work and my father said we were going out to a neighborhood restaurant to celebrate tonight. I had no clue what he was talking about until he said we were going to this Italian joint named Phil's.......lol. I had a good meal and Phil had a great game - nice evening all around!
I almost wish Phil could have been taken out in the middle of an inning so we could see his teammates congratulate him.......
Yankees1962
04-28-09, 10:19 PM
I just got home from the game and Hughes was very good tonight. His 4 seam fastball sat mostly around 92-93 mph. His curve and cutter were also good tonight.
The thing I liked was the speed of his delivery that more close resembles the below video then the less aggressive form we saw last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGplQomdSl0
CallOfTheCrow
04-28-09, 10:20 PM
See any changeups? I didnt see the game since Im at work.
metalboy15
04-28-09, 10:24 PM
See any changeups? I didnt see the game since Im at work.
3 or 4.
EDIT: PITCHf/x says 3.
Yankees1962
04-28-09, 10:34 PM
See any changeups? I didnt see the game since Im at work.
I only saw a couple of pitches that looked like a changeup. He threw alot of curves and cutters. It was pretty cold tonight with that wind blowing so it might have affected his command a little bit.
I only saw a couple of pitches that looked like a changeup. He threw alot of curves and cutters. It was pretty cold tonight with that wind blowing so it might have affected his command a little bit.
Yeah, I thought his command was off a bit too.
He probably got away with a lot of pitches because the hitters didn't really know what to expect, especially the cutter.
Still, this was an awesome debut. Definitely good enough for 4.0ERA for rest of the year if he keeps it up.
Yankees1962
04-28-09, 10:38 PM
Yeah, I thought his command was off a bit too.
He probably got away with a lot of pitches because the hitters didn't really know what to expect, especially the cutter.
They knew what to expect because they kicked his butt last year.
They knew what to expect because they kicked his butt last year.
They expected something and got something totally different. That worked a lot to Hughes' advantage.
I don't want to take anything away from Hughes since he really did pitch great tonight. But in another start or two, scouting reports will pile up and that's when the real tests start.
Melan-cynic
04-28-09, 10:45 PM
We should make a club. :lol:
Count me in then..
Yankees1962
04-28-09, 10:45 PM
They expected something and got something totally different. That worked a lot to Hughes' advantage.
I don't want to take anything away from Hughes since he really did pitch great tonight. But in another start or two, scouting reports will pile up and that's when the real tests start.
You're speculating about what they expected.
Melan-cynic
04-28-09, 10:50 PM
See any changeups? I didnt see the game since Im at work.
Gameday confused one or two of his 87mph cutters as changeups. Hughes really only threw two of them. One taken for a ball by Granderson and the other was a fouled off by Ordonez IIRC.
Great performance from Hughes, hopefully the FB command remains consistent as this was the guy I saw when I was in Trenton: i.e. laser command, tight curve and calm yet aggressive mound presence.
I predicted 6 IP, 3 ER, 5 k's, 2 bb's and the W. And he outdid me.
Not sure if anyone mentioned it already, but his armslot looked lower to me, and reminded me of the release point he had during his notorious run in the Eastern League. If so, it wouldn't surprise me if that had something to do with the 92-94 velo and better lateral movement on his FB.
The most impressive thing to me is that his 2-seamer fastballs sit at 93MPH, not top at 93MPH during the game. He is back.
Yankees1962
04-28-09, 10:54 PM
The most impressive thing to me is that his 2-seamer fastballs sit at 93MPH, not top at 93MPH during the game. He is back.
Are you sure about that?
NelsonMuntz
04-28-09, 10:56 PM
Not sure if anyone mentioned it already, but his armslot looked lower to me, and reminded me of the release point he had during his notorious run in the Eastern League. If so, it wouldn't surprise me if that had something to do with the 92-94 velo and better lateral movement on his FB.
Yeah a few people did mention this a couple pages back. I'm thinking there might be something to it. He was also using the cutter very effectively and his curve was a lot crisper than it was last year. A very encouraging performance from Phil when we really needed it.
PJMPirate
04-28-09, 11:04 PM
It was definitely hard not to be encouraged by this start. Fastball looked great, cutter was very effective and the curve had great movement although his command of it could have been better.
I don't know if he'll be the next Clemens like he was supposed to be, but he might well turn into a right-handed Andy Pettitte.
Are you sure about that?
If the Gameday is correct, nearly 60% of his 2-seamer fastballs sit at 92MPH or higher. So saying his fastballs sit at 93MPH may be wrong. But sitting at 92MPH is still pretty good.
ThePinStripes
04-28-09, 11:10 PM
Yeah, I thought his command was off a bit too.
He probably got away with a lot of pitches because the hitters didn't really know what to expect, especially the cutter.
Still, this was an awesome debut. Definitely good enough for 4.0ERA for rest of the year if he keeps it up.
He definitely threw a few right down the middle that had me checking my undies.
I'm very happy to see him doing well, but I think the real test is how well he does over 5-6 starts when batters start adjusting. How many times have we gotten all excited about a stellar AAA performance for 1-3 starts to see it all come crashing when batters adjust.
ThePinStripes
04-28-09, 11:12 PM
The most impressive thing to me is that his 2-seamer fastballs sit at 93MPH, not top at 93MPH during the game. He is back.
His curve was like something out of a cartoon. He made someone dive out of the box on a called strike :lol:
ICEBERG18
04-28-09, 11:26 PM
Like what I saw, Ump also squeezed him a couple of times.
The Cutter has gotten a lot of better.
Gameday was counting every single fastball as a 2-seamer today peculiarly.
I don't know how many were 2-seam or 4-seam, but Phil was definitely getting a lot of movement on his fastball. The Detroit lineup just couldn't make solid contact—especially with the cutter added to it.
Edit: Stats courtesy of brooksbaseball.net:
Pitch Type Average Speed Max Speed Average H-Break Average V-Break Number Thrown Strike Percentage Nibbleness Time to Plate
FF (fastball) 91.33 94.3 -4.24 10.81 63 58.73 5.82 0.412
CH (Changeup) 83.63 87.2 -5.82 7.87 3 66.67 5.71 0.450
SL (Slider) 87.48 89.2 0.99 7.14 12 58.33 7.83 0.427
CU (Curveball) 76.04 88.2 8.06 -6.86 21 57.14 7.19 0.503
Pitch classifications provided by the Gameday Algorithm and are unfortunately often inaccurate.
Clicking individual pitch types will provide individual velocity histograms for each pitch.
It looks like it's putting a lot of cutters in the fastball category, because I know he threw more than the 12 times in the "slider" category. He was throwing it almost as often as his fastball! Because of that, it's also underreporting his velocity a little bit which I would have guessed to average a little over 92 mph.
CallOfTheCrow
04-28-09, 11:37 PM
He needs a gyroball.
Gameday was counting every single fastball as a 2-seamer today peculiarly.
I don't know how many were 2-seam or 4-seam, but Phil was definitely getting a lot of movement on his fastball. The Detroit lineup just couldn't make solid contact—especially with the cutter added to it.
I couldn't tell either. But I was able to catch a couple grips in slow motion and he definitely did throw some 2 seamers. YES was calling everything not a cutter 4 seam so I don't know.
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 12:02 AM
THAT was impressive. Loved every minute of it.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 12:18 AM
Phil Hughes showed up tonight.
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 12:19 AM
The most exciting 6 innings I've seen in a long while. Very encouraging, maybe too encouraging.
just-blaze
04-29-09, 12:39 AM
Good Job Phil.....now back to minors with you and work on that all important change, you won't be able to be lucky all the time.
MoRivera42akaGod
04-29-09, 12:42 AM
phil hughes now spells his name fil hues and in his spare time he fights crime.
ThePinStripes
04-29-09, 12:44 AM
Good Job Phil.....now back to minors with you and work on that all important change, you won't be able to be lucky all the time.
That's kinda what I was thinking... I'd really really really like for him to have a changeup he can rely on.
just-blaze
04-29-09, 12:54 AM
That's kinda what I was thinking... I'd really really really like for him to have a changeup he can rely on.
Actually I was being sarcastic. :P
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 12:58 AM
In a month when Wang comes back if Hughes is pitching better than Joba is, I would hope the yankees do the right thing and send Joba down to start instead of giving into the lynchmob and putting him back in the pen.
Bostonsfavson
04-29-09, 01:10 AM
In a month when Wang comes back if Hughes is pitching better than Joba is, I would hope the yankees do the right thing and send Joba down to start instead of giving into the lynchmob and putting him back in the pen.
Six healthy, ML-caliber pitchers? That's a problem I would welcome, though doubt we will see. These issues always solve themselves, for better or worse.
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/04/29/guess-whos-back-its-phil-hughes/
Pinstripedbass
04-29-09, 05:23 AM
Great job Phil.
Now do it again your next start.
In a month when Wang comes back if Hughes is pitching better than Joba is, I would hope the yankees do the right thing and send Joba down to start instead of giving into the lynchmob and putting him back in the pen.
This is what most of us were and will be thinking last night and tonight. I just want the best pitchers out there. I do feel Joba is special and I do feel Bruney is a good set up.....BUT you are correct.
What I really like was how he mixed his pitches last night.http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfx/speed.php?xml=http://gd2.mlb.com/components/game/mlb/year_2009/month_04/day_28/gid_2009_04_28_nyamlb_detmlb_1//pbp/pitchers/461833.xml&batterX=0&innings=yyyyyyyyy&s_type=1&sp_type=1&h_size=700&v_size=500
NewEraYanks2527
04-29-09, 05:37 AM
His fastball had that late life that made it look deceiving, I was watching and it seemed like he would pitch and as the fastball was getting closer to home plate it came alive and really fooled the hitters. Just my two cents.
Very fun to watch. :D
In a month when Wang comes back if Hughes is pitching better than Joba is, I would hope the yankees do the right thing and send Joba down to start instead of giving into the lynchmob and putting him back in the pen.
Bingo
Unless Joba makes a quantam leap back to his old velocity/quality of pitches, that's a no brainer. Here's hoping Joba gets back to form and we have a difficult decision to make
Phiol being back is huge for the team
Bluebottle_Sam
04-29-09, 06:39 AM
Man I don't want to jinx him or anything, but that was a great effort by Hughes last night, has me hoping for good things (which is normally a recipe for disaster!)!
I'm not that concerned about the Phil not using the change tonight since everything else was working. I think those leg injuries really messed with him, because if you watch carefully, he uses his lower body much more in his delivery than some pitchers who are "all arm" (which is probably why he's avoided arm injury but had a ton of lower body injuries).
burtons
04-29-09, 06:50 AM
you could not have asked for more from Hughes, nice job....
yankeeman61
04-29-09, 06:54 AM
The best approach to take with Phil is cautious optimism. He pitched great last night and actually better than his pitch count indicated thanks to a postage stamp strike zone. It's easy to get excited, but it is just one start. His FB was great, velocity wise and command. I would like to see him mix in more changeups because he is going to need it on nights when he doesn't have command of his other pitches. I'm not crazy about his curveball because he tends to hang it more than he should. If he can bury that pitch in the dirt more consistently and get batters to chase it (ala Verlander on Monday), then we are talking dominance. Nevertheless, I am happy for him and I hope he continues to build on this outing. If Wang can get back close to his normal self the Yankees will have some interesting decisions to make.
Yankee Steve
04-29-09, 07:02 AM
The cutter now gives him another "look". His FB is still straight, but if he can control it (which he did last night), he can throw it to get ahead and then follow up with the cutter and curve. Everything is built around control and last night he showed that he had it. Great job by Phil.
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 07:13 AM
His curve was like something out of a cartoon. He made someone dive out of the box on a called strike :lol:
Polanco - that was hilarious, lol
aeromac76
04-29-09, 07:15 AM
His cutter was the biggest difference I saw..
It was fantastic..
Boring movement in, pretty good velo to it. His 2 seamer was crackling as well.
He had a good curve but did not command it well.
With the K zone the size of a dime, and the Tigers lineup, and a curve he had only so so command of, he goes 6 dominant innings.
Wow..
Just..
Wow..
Never saw that coming. Kid was amazing. If this is what we have, my god. I have been in the Joba=starter camp for a long time. But with the pen weakness, and if Wang comes back to be Wang, and this is Phil finally, then, dare I say setup Joba?
I dunno how I feel about that, but all I know is we might have just finally gottten ther golden arm to be golden, and that is not a bad thing no matter what moves it affects.
Spiker101
04-29-09, 07:29 AM
His cutter was the biggest difference I saw..
It was fantastic..
Boring movement in, pretty good velo to it. His 2 seamer was crackling as well.
He had a good curve but did not command it well.
With the K zone the size of a dime, and the Tigers lineup, and a curve he had only so so command of, he goes 6 dominant innings.
Wow..
Just..
Wow..
Never saw that coming. Kid was amazing. If this is what we have, my god. I have been in the Joba=starter camp for a long time. But with the pen weakness, and if Wang comes back to be Wang, and this is Phil finally, then, dare I say setup Joba?
I dunno how I feel about that, but all I know is we might have just finally gottten ther golden arm to be golden, and that is not a bad thing no matter what moves it affects.
The bottom line for me is that I want Joba to throw somewhere between 140-160 innings this year and I want him to throw them where they'll be the most use to the team this year. Next year will take care of itself next year.
YankeePride1967
04-29-09, 07:33 AM
Phil needs to develop an eephus pitch.
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 07:35 AM
Just from the clips I saw, Phil just looked very confident out there. I'm not surprised - this is a kid who at age 21 shut the Indians down in the ALDS and gave his team a chance to win. He looked that night like he was born to the mound. His new pitches and "new" curve have really added a lot. He'll get that change down eventually to where it will be a good enough pitch for him, I have faith. Phil will get hit - maybe even next time - but we saw last night what he can do when he's finally healthy. He just came up huge in a game the Yankees needed him.....I can't say enough about that.
I still don't put Joba in the pen - Joba's future should not be dependent on anyone else. He's a starter until he proves he's not.
His cutter was the biggest difference I saw..
It was fantastic..
Boring movement in, pretty good velo to it. His 2 seamer was crackling as well.
He had a good curve but did not command it well.
With the K zone the size of a dime, and the Tigers lineup, and a curve he had only so so command of, he goes 6 dominant innings.
Wow..
Just..
Wow..
Never saw that coming. Kid was amazing. If this is what we have, my god. I have been in the Joba=starter camp for a long time. But with the pen weakness, and if Wang comes back to be Wang, and this is Phil finally, then, dare I say setup Joba?
I dunno how I feel about that, but all I know is we might have just finally gottten ther golden arm to be golden, and that is not a bad thing no matter what moves it affects.
Nah, I figure Hughes will take over for Pettitte next year.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 07:43 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned it already, but his armslot looked lower to me, and reminded me of the release point he had during his notorious run in the Eastern League. If so, it wouldn't surprise me if that had something to do with the 92-94 velo and better lateral movement on his FB.
Yes, BMX and I both noticed this as well.
35Knucklecurve
04-29-09, 07:46 AM
Polanco - that was hilarious, lol
I love those Bugs Bunny pitches - wish I could have seen this game because I've only been able to watch Huges twice. It would have been interesting to compare those starts with this one. Unfortunately, ESPN showed the offense and barely mentioned Hughes.
Brick Tamland
04-29-09, 07:52 AM
I know I'm jumping to conclusions BUT if Hughes continues to pitch like he has this first five innings, what's the plan?
Replace him with Wang when he comes back OR put Wang back into the rotation and put Joba in the pen?
God I hope not. Joba is a starting pitcher. And so far this year, the Yankees' most consistent SP start to start.
God I hope not. Joba is a starting pitcher. And so far this year, the Yankees' most consistent SP start to start.
I think theres an old lefty who might disagree with that but as bad as Joba has looked hes kept us in every game hes pitched in and for a guy who has yet to pitch with his best stuff has done an OK job. Eventually though I want to see him look dominant.
God I hope not. Joba is a starting pitcher. And so far this year, the Yankees' most consistent SP start to start.
Joba should be a starter. But he is not the most consistent starting pitcher so far this year. Pettitte is. Joba was very lucky in his last start.
hatfieldms
04-29-09, 07:59 AM
I love those Bugs Bunny pitches - wish I could have seen this game because I've only been able to watch Huges twice. It would have been interesting to compare those starts with this one. Unfortunately, ESPN showed the offense and barely mentioned Hughes.
Well your first mistake was even watching ESPN
SLURPEE
04-29-09, 08:05 AM
Next years rotation:
Sabathia Wang Burnett Chamberlain Hughes
Pen: Rivera Melancon Coke Dunn Robertson Bruney
:ga-ga:
BRNXBMRS
04-29-09, 08:11 AM
Very impressed last night, I thought he was going to melt when the bases were loaded, but he gutted it out. He mixed his pitches & changed speeds for 6 innings, thats the hughes we expected. That knuckle curve he froze (granderson I think) was sick. I cant wait till his next start.
stazsanity
04-29-09, 08:12 AM
unfortunately i was out of town and couldn't watch a pitch-
i've seen plenty of comments about the deception of his 2 seemer- what did his velocity look like?
23jordan
04-29-09, 08:12 AM
Good thing I have this performance archived in high def on my computer :)
Would not hesitate to keep starting Phil, until he starts showing he can't win games.
Wang becomes a spot starter/bull-pen long relief. If he has good outings in those roles then go from there. If not, I have no answer.
He should not replace Hughes in any event, the kid is here to stay.
Hopefully, that is.
Give him every possible chance in high heaven to stay on this team.
Brick Tamland
04-29-09, 08:30 AM
I think theres an old lefty who might disagree with that but as bad as Joba has looked hes kept us in every game hes pitched in and for a guy who has yet to pitch with his best stuff has done an OK job. Eventually though I want to see him look dominant.
Mia Culpa. For some reason I was thinking Andy had given up more runs. Obviously he has been the most consistent. But Joba always seems to keep the Yanks in the game I guess is what I meant to say.
hatfieldms
04-29-09, 08:41 AM
Would not hesitate to keep starting Phil, until he starts showing he can't win games.
Wang becomes a spot starter/bull-pen long relief. If he has good outings in those roles then go from there. If not, I have no answer.
He should not replace Hughes in any event, the kid is here to stay.
Hopefully, that is.
Give him every possible chance in high heaven to stay on this team.
Good lord, we are now going to put Wang in as a spot starter and long relief guy because of one start by Hughes? At least this board never goes over board for anything. A guy has back to back 19 win seasons, gets off to a bad start and off to the bull pen!
Brick Tamland
04-29-09, 08:54 AM
Wang has to get right and get back in the rotation. When his sinker is on he is money.
It's just so nice to be able to discuss Hughes in a positive light finally. I mean, last season we all had such high expectations (totally unjustified) and every time we saw him throw it was just so disappointing. And he looked great last night. Maybe he's back on track and can continue to string together quality starts?
He also won 8 games last year. What does that do for the Yankees right now?
He'll get his spot start (at the expense of Hughes) and if he implodes again then what?
Sorry to say, but Wang's pitching porblems are very, very serious. It's not going to be fixed by a stint on the DL.
I think he's going to be in for a rough year. His comeback is going to be long and painful.
Easy does it.
I don't think he's just going to flip a switch and lower that ERA in a few starts.
Who do you send down to keep Hughes up?
It might not be fair to say this now, but Hughes will have a lower ERA than Wang this year.
If Wang gets his ERA below 5.00 I will be grateful.
If Hughes pitches even close to the way he did last night the next 3 or 4 starts he gets, I don't want Wang replacing him in the rotation.
That simple.
Let Wang earn his way back in, spot by spot.
Yankees1962
04-29-09, 09:04 AM
He also won 8 games last year. What does that do for the Yankees right now?
He'll get his spot start (at the expense of Hughes) and if he implodes again then what?
Sorry to say, but Wang's pitching porblems are very, very serious. It's not going to be fixed by a stint on the DL.
I think he's going to be in for a rough year. His comeback is going to be long and painful.
Easy does it.
I don't think he's just going to flip a switch and lower that ERA in a few starts.
Who do you send down to keep Hughes up?
It might not be fair to say this now, but Hughes will have a lower ERA than Wang this year.
If Wang gets his ERA below 5.00 I will be grateful.
If Hughes pitches even close to the way he did last night the next 3 or 4 starts he gets I don't want Wang replacing him in the rotation.
That simple.
Let Wang earn his way back in spot by spot.
Can we quote you if and when Wang proves you wrong?
Derek2HOF
04-29-09, 09:10 AM
He also won 8 games last year. What does that do for the Yankees right now?
He'll get his spot start (at the expense of Hughes) and if he implodes again then what?
Sorry to say, but Wang's pitching porblems are very, very serious. It's not going to be fixed by a stint on the DL.
I think he's going to be in for a rough year. His comeback is going to be long and painful.
Easy does it.
I don't think he's just going to flip a switch and lower that ERA in a few starts.
Who do you send down to keep Hughes up?
It might not be fair to say this now, but Hughes will have a lower ERA than Wang this year.
If Wang gets his ERA below 5.00 I will be grateful.
If Hughes pitches even close to the way he did last night the next 3 or 4 starts he gets, I don't want Wang replacing him in the rotation.
That simple.
Let Wang earn his way back in, spot by spot.
It doesn't matter what Wang gets his ERA down to. Those horrific starts are done and over. All that matters is what his ERA is from here on out. Those games were horrific, but if he pitches to his career norms for the rest of the season he deserves to be in the rotation.
Phil will get plenty of chances at starting this season. We have some old guys and some injury guys, so at some point we will need him. If Wang doesn't get things straightened out then by all means Phil should continue to start. I just don't see Wang forgetting how to pitch.
Phil looked like a bonafied major league stud last night.
He even looked like he filled out more since the last time we saw him. He just looked like he belonged.
Man, if he can jump in the rotation, and Joba can go back in the pen, then we'd be talking about a real boost to this team.
Can we quote you if and when Wang proves you wrong?
Absolutely. I've been Wang, I mean wrong before. :lol:
hatfieldms
04-29-09, 09:14 AM
He also won 8 games last year. What does that do for the Yankees right now?
He'll get his spot start (at the expense of Hughes) and if he implodes again then what?
Sorry to say, but Wang's pitching porblems are very, very serious. It's not going to be fixed by a stint on the DL.
I think he's going to be in for a rough year. His comeback is going to be long and painful.
Easy does it.
I don't think he's just going to flip a switch and lower that ERA in a few starts.
Who do you send down to keep Hughes up?
It might not be fair to say this now, but Hughes will have a lower ERA than Wang this year.
If Wang gets his ERA below 5.00 I will be grateful.
If Hughes pitches even close to the way he did last night the next 3 or 4 starts he gets, I don't want Wang replacing him in the rotation.
That simple.
Let Wang earn his way back in, spot by spot.
How do you know how serious they are, and how do you know they cannot be fixed with a stint on the DL? Are you a doctor or pitching coach? Wang just didnt forget how to pitch overnight.
He has pitched a total of 6 innings this year. It will not take much at all to get his era back down, so saying Hughes will definitely have a lower ERA this year is just another example of people on this board going completely overboard on a very short sample size on this board
Yankees1962
04-29-09, 09:14 AM
It doesn't matter what Wang gets his ERA down to. Those horrific starts are done and over. All that matters is what his ERA is from here on out. Those games were horrific, but if he pitches to his career norms for the rest of the season he deserves to be in the rotation.
Phil will get plenty of chances at starting this season. We have some old guys and some injury guys, so at some point we will need him. If Wang doesn't get things straightened out then by all means Phil should continue to start. I just don't see Wang forgetting how to pitch.
Good point, I only care about his ERA from the time he gets back going forward.
themgmt
04-29-09, 09:17 AM
The first pitch to Anderson looked like a changeup too, he fouled it off.
It doesn't matter what Wang gets his ERA down to. Those horrific starts are done and over. All that matters is what his ERA is from here on out. Those games were horrific, but if he pitches to his career norms for the rest of the season he deserves to be in the rotation.
Phil will get plenty of chances at starting this season. We have some old guys and some injury guys, so at some point we will need him. If Wang doesn't get things straightened out then by all means Phil should continue to start. I just don't see Wang forgetting how to pitch.
Alright, making sense. Very good perspective.
I just can't wrap my head around Wang getting his act together enough to be the dominant pitcher he was. Average maybe.
As long as Phil does well he needs to stay on the team. Wang will get his chance, regardless.
I just hope he does well. If he does I will be amazed.
Don Wrigley
04-29-09, 09:28 AM
Phil looked great last night. And if Wang can come back healthy and Phil is pitching great, fortunately the Yankees have someone else they can send to the minors...Joba.
Phil has been a professional for years longer than Joba and is more polished, both have options. If Phil is pitching well and Joba still isn't, I don't see why Joba shouldn't be the odd man out. We learned last year that rotation spots can't be guaranteed to young starters. Let Joba work his problems out in the minors, assuming Phil pitches like this.
kongull
04-29-09, 09:34 AM
Phil looked like a bonafied major league stud last night.
He even looked like he filled out more since the last time we saw him. He just looked like he belonged.
Man, if he can jump in the rotation, and Joba can go back in the pen, then we'd be talking about a real boost to this team.
i think this is important. A lot of times you hear of so and so adding X pounds over the offseason and is stronger now, and sometimes you can't tell.
Phil hughes definitely looked bigger.
Just curious. That knuckle curve - isn't that the pitch Moose showed him?
Very Happy for Him.
How do you know how serious they are, and how do you know they cannot be fixed with a stint on the DL? Are you a doctor or pitching coach? Wang just didnt forget how to pitch overnight.
He has pitched a total of 6 innings this year. It will not take much at all to get his era back down, so saying Hughes will definitely have a lower ERA this year is just another example of people on this board going completely overboard on a very short sample size on this board
Please............................
I actually don't know anything but what I see and read.
How do you know how serious it isn't?
Are you a doctor or a pitching coach?
Wang DID forget how to pitch overnight................ in those six innings.
How can I tell?
1. They skipped over him in what was to be one of his starts in Boston.
2. Sent him to the DL, because they had no choice. Could not figure anthing else out. His hips hurt? They weren't hurting in Sring Training?
3. Those 3 starts of his were not even close to being expected.
Each one he was given the green light baby. After every start it was the same old song in the press,
"Oh, he'll be fine, this was just a hiccup, he'll be fine his next start!"
His next start? The middle of May?
Yeah there's nothin' to worry about.
Gotta agree with ya on the short sample size and going ape over it, but this is Wang were talking about. Nobody saw this coming. Not even the Dr. or the pitching coach.
hatfieldms
04-29-09, 09:44 AM
Please............................
I actually don't know anything but what I see and read.
How do you know how serious it isn't?
Are you a doctor or a pitching coach?
Wang DID forget how to pitch overnight................ in those six innings.
How can I tell?
1. They skipped over him in what was to be one of his starts in Boston.
2. Sent him to the DL, because they had no choice. His hips hurt? They weren't hurting in Sring Training?
3. Those 3 starts of his were not even close to being expected.
Each one he was given the green light baby. After every start it was the same old song in the press,
"Oh, he'll be fine, this was just a hiccup, he'll be fine his next start!"
His next start? The middle of May?
Yeah there's nothin' to worry about.
I am not a pitching coach, but I am also smart enough to realize Wang isnt the first pitcher to have a rough patch like he had this year. My point is you have no idea how serious his problem s are and how long it will take for him to get back and to go ahead and resign him to the bullpen as long relief or a spot starter is just another classic example of someone on this board overreacting
I take your point well, enough.
My point is this, you don't know either, so were even. :)
Obviously it's more serious than not, or he wouldn't be where he is right now.
I do know that he won't get a start till the middle of May.
There goin' keep him in check until they are absolutely sure he can pitch two innings without getting shelled.
hatfieldms
04-29-09, 09:59 AM
I take your point well, enough.
My point is this, you don't know either, so were even. :)
Obviously it's more serious than not, or he wouldn't be where he is right now.
I do know that he won't get a start till the middle of May.
There goin' keep him in check until they are absolutely sure he can pitch two innings without getting shelled.
He is where he is because they would rather work on his mechanics in Florida than in a regular season game. That doesnt mean the guy will not be able to recover this year as you are led to believe
teknetic
04-29-09, 10:03 AM
MLB Debut:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?w_id=568166&w=2007/open/tp/archive04/042607_tornya_hughes_reel5k_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/04/26/tormlb-nyamlb-1&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2
Texas game:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?w_id=569099&w=2007/open/tp/archive05/050107_nyatex_hughes_inj_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/05/01/nyamlb-texmlb-1&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2
Toronto last year:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?w_id=867292&w=/2008/open/mlbam/2008/09/24/mlbtv_nyator_1378152_400K.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2008/09/24/nyamlb-tormlb-1&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=3
Last night:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200904284345341&c_id=nyy
Stark differences.
Snatch Catch
04-29-09, 10:08 AM
I really liked the changeup to Granderson, even though it was only one pitch and a ball.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 10:13 AM
I thought he was even better yesterday than he was in the Texas start. Later in the game, his burying that hook in the dirt over and over again was a great sign and you could see he made the adjustment from earlier in the game where he was throwing curves that finished in the strike zone ahead in the count.
Yankee Tripper
04-29-09, 10:26 AM
well for one night at least I guess we got to see why he was the #1 pitching prospect in all of baseball a few years back. That start was a thing of beuty.
Mantle'sMutt
04-29-09, 10:28 AM
All the pressure in the world.
Career defining start.
He shoots.....he scores!
He is where he is because they would rather work on his mechanics in Florida than in a regular season game. That doesnt mean the guy will not be able to recover this year as you are led to believe]
I'm not being clear. Sorry for that.
I am not lead to believe that Wang cannot recover. He can, in all probability he will.
I believe it will take Wang longer to be effective as a #2 starter than people are hoping for.
I believe that when he does recover he will not be as dominant a starter as he was in the past.
In an earlier post I stated that if he gets his ERA under 5.00 I will consider that an amazing comeback.
My point for clairity, is that, I don't want Wang immediately taking Hughes spot in the rotation if Hughes continues to pitch well, during Wang's rehab/mechanic DL stint.
Therefore, I hope Yankee management can work Wang back into the rotation without sacraficing, a well pitching Hughes. What can else could they do? I don't know.
That's it.
mgpenguin
04-29-09, 10:35 AM
Phil looked excellent last night. Good fastball, good curve, etc. However, I'll temper my excitement until he reproduces this type of game in the future.
freebubba
04-29-09, 10:36 AM
Well that was just damn encouraging, wasn't it. The kid stepped up in humungous fashion.
ymike673
04-29-09, 10:38 AM
Phil looked excellent last night. Good fastball, good curve, etc. However, I'll temper my excitement until he reproduces this type of game in the future.
He pitched a game like last night two years ago on May 1. Hopefully we don't have to wait two years this time around for his next good game.
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 10:38 AM
I was most impressed with his poise.
freebubba
04-29-09, 10:39 AM
Nah, I figure Hughes will take over for Pettitte next year.
That seems to be the plan.
b-ball-lunachick
04-29-09, 10:42 AM
From Lohud:
I asked him how long ago that game against Texas seemed.
“Ages,” Hughes said. “Ages and not a lot of wins later. Anytime you can talk about a stretch of two years almost and you’ve got a couple wins to show for it between that time, it seems like a long time ago. There were points last year where, I’m not going to lie, I was pretty lost. I felt like I had forgotten how to pitch and things weren’t falling into place for me. I just tried to keep working as hard as I could.”
He definitely looked like the Phil we saw in Texas last night as opposed to last year. :)
Mantle'sMutt
04-29-09, 10:44 AM
If Phil continues to pitch anything close to last night, how in the hell do you send him back down? Take it TOO easy on a guy, and you can ruin him that way, too. If the kid is ready for the Bigs he needs to stay, and we NEED him to stay. Whoever AIN'T doing the job gets the long relief role (or, if hurt, the DL) until he bumps someone back by proving his way back into the rotation. Else, I will assume trade talks may be in the offing, depending on Wang's status, and what they decide to do differently (if anything) with Joba.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 10:46 AM
Hey who knows. If Hughes really keeps this up my might be great enough for the Yankees to put him where he belongs, in the bullpen where he can effect the outcomes of more games.
BillBuckner
04-29-09, 10:52 AM
If Phil continues to pitch anything close to last night, how in the hell do you send him back down? Take it TOO easy on a guy, and you can ruin him that way, too. If the kid is ready for the Bigs he needs to stay, and we NEED him to stay. Whoever AIN'T doing the job gets the long relief role (or, if hurt, the DL) until he bumps someone back by proving his way back into the rotation. Else, I will assume trade talks may be in the offing, depending on Wang's status, and what they decide to do differently (if anything) with Joba.
I agree. Who knows if he'll keep doing that every start, but if he even comes close there is just no way you can send the guy back down to Scranton.
If Phil continues to pitch anything close to last night, how in the hell do you send him back down? Take it TOO easy on a guy, and you can ruin him that way, too. If the kid is ready for the Bigs he needs to stay, and we NEED him to stay. Whoever AIN'T doing the job gets the long relief role (or, if hurt, the DL) until he bumps someone back by proving his way back into the rotation. Else, I will assume trade talks may be in the offing, depending on Wang's status, and what they decide to do differently (if anything) with Joba.
Yes. This is what I've been trying to say.
Whoever AIN'T doing the job...............................................................gets the long relief role or a spot start to work his way back into the rotation.................................
That whoever, as it stands right now, is Wang.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 10:54 AM
Yes. This is what I've been trying to say.
Whoever AIN'T doing the job...............................................................gets the long relief role or a spot start to work his way back into the rotation.................................
That whoever, as it stands right now, is Wang.It makes no sense to have starters pitching out of the pen. The guys that aren't in the rotation in the majors need to be starting every 5th day for scranton.
smckdwn989
04-29-09, 10:57 AM
It makes no sense to have starters pitching out of the pen. The guys that aren't in the rotation in the majors need to be starting every 5th day for scranton.
lol and how do you go about telling a CMW that he's going to pitch in AAA?
honestly if hughes performs, it's a good problem to have. and the organization needs to look at considering a joba to the pen move. the team needs bullpen help, and if they are able to go to a Bruney-Melancon-Joba-Rivera bullpen, the team game will be shortened dramatically. I know joba has more value as a starter, but if everyone is clicking, then the best move for the team is strengthening the pen. Besides joba has an innings cap this year.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 10:59 AM
lol and how do you go about telling a CMW that he's going to pitch in AAA?
honestly if hughes performs, it's a good problem to have. and the organization needs to look at considering a joba to the pen move. the team needs bullpen help, and if they are able to go to a Bruney-Melancon-Joba-Rivera bullpen, the team game will be shortened dramatically. I know joba has more value as a starter, but if everyone is clicking, then the best move for the team is strengthening the pen. Besides joba has an innings cap this year.How about telling him that the best 5 starters are going to start. Period. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to dick around with Joba's development again though.
Yankee Tripper
04-29-09, 11:01 AM
If Phil continues to pitch anything close to last night, how in the hell do you send him back down? Take it TOO easy on a guy, and you can ruin him that way, too. If the kid is ready for the Bigs he needs to stay, and we NEED him to stay. Whoever AIN'T doing the job gets the long relief role (or, if hurt, the DL) until he bumps someone back by proving his way back into the rotation. Else, I will assume trade talks may be in the offing, depending on Wang's status, and what they decide to do differently (if anything) with Joba.
A month is a long time in baseball. A lot can happen. I hope all 5 current starters are pitching awesome and Wang looks like his old self in his rehab. It would be a nice problem to have.
ArodEra
04-29-09, 11:03 AM
MLB Debut:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?w_id=568166&w=2007/open/tp/archive04/042607_tornya_hughes_reel5k_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/04/26/tormlb-nyamlb-1&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2
Texas game:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?w_id=569099&w=2007/open/tp/archive05/050107_nyatex_hughes_inj_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/05/01/nyamlb-texmlb-1&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2
Toronto last year:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?w_id=867292&w=/2008/open/mlbam/2008/09/24/mlbtv_nyator_1378152_400K.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2008/09/24/nyamlb-tormlb-1&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=3
Last night:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200904284345341&c_id=nyy
Stark differences.
Did you like waht you saw of his mechanics and delivery last night, and how would you compare it to the Hughes of early years?
Although I like the results of yesterday's game, personally, I like his aggressiveness (as shown in his debut) though it does look more violent, and perhaps make him more prone to injury.
I also am not sure how his getting away from what made him so dominant in the minors, translates in he future. Yesterday was an excellent start and I hope it continues.
My understanding is that Wang cannot be sent down to AAA.
Now what?
That's why he was DL to make room for Hughes.
Hellsing
04-29-09, 11:04 AM
This is part of the reason why I did not want the Yankees to resign Andy.
HOWEVER, Andy is pitching well and deserves to be in the rotation.
If Wang returns to form, Joba struggles, and Hughes pitches like this then I believe moving Chamberlain to the pen is the most obvious choice.
I am a HUGE believer in Joba as a SP, but they tweaked something in his delivery and he's just...lost "it".
Yankee Tripper
04-29-09, 11:04 AM
lol and how do you go about telling a CMW that he's going to pitch in AAA?
You don't. Once his "injury" time is up he gets a max 30 day rehab assignment.
honestly if hughes performs, it's a good problem to have. and the organization needs to look at considering a joba to the pen move. the team needs bullpen help, and if they are able to go to a Bruney-Melancon-Joba-Rivera bullpen, the team game will be shortened dramatically. I know joba has more value as a starter, but if everyone is clicking, then the best move for the team is strengthening the pen. Besides joba has an innings cap this year.
I agree with almost all of this. I hope it a problem they have to face and they can burn that bridge when it comes.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:05 AM
Did you like waht you saw of his mechanics and delivery last night, and how would you compare it to the Hughes of early years?
Although I like the results of yesterday's game, personally, I like his aggressiveness (as shown in his debut) though it does look more violent, and perhaps make him more prone to injury.
I also am not sure how his getting away from what made him so dominant in the minors, translates in he future. Yesterday was an excellent start and I hope it continues.He's getting lower on his leg drive which is a good sign. Also he's probably got 20 pounds or so on 07 Hughes.
Mantle'sMutt
04-29-09, 11:05 AM
A month is a long time in baseball. A lot can happen. I hope all 5 current starters are pitching awesome and Wang looks like his old self in his rehab. It would be a nice problem to have.
A very nice problem. True, a lot CAN happen. That's why my post was sprinkled with "ifs"! :) Heck, Burnett could have caught the virus from Pavano against Cleveland and come up with a butt cheek ailment. ;)
smckdwn989
04-29-09, 11:07 AM
How about telling him that the best 5 starters are going to start. Period. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to dick around with Joba's development again though.
good idea, let's not do what is best for the team... let's do what is best for joba. and let's ignore his 150IP cap this year.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:08 AM
good idea, let's not do what is best for the team... let's do what is best for joba. and let's ignore his 150IP cap this year.Who said to ignore his cap? They should be skipping him enough times to keep him around the limit. You know whats best for the team? If Joba reaches his ceiling AS A STARTER.
This is part of the reason why I did not want the Yankees to resign Andy.
HOWEVER, Andy is pitching well and deserves to be in the rotation.
If Wang returns to form, Joba struggles, and Hughes pitches like this then I believe moving Chamberlain to the pen is the most obvious choice.
I am a HUGE believer in Joba as a SP, but they tweaked something in his delivery and he's just...lost "it".
Interesting. Something like this would have to happen becuase I don't see Hughes being sent down if he pitches well in place of Wang, when he comes back.
I really fail to see the logic of sending Hughes back down even if Wang pitches well.
The Red Sox has been moving Masterson in and out of rotation for a while. I don't see why we can't do the same.
Wang back in rotation (if he pitches well) and Hughes to the pen for 2IP+ duties in close games when the starter pitches less than 6 innings.
Hughes and Joba are both very young, and I would not be surprised at all if we use this opportunity to limit innings on both arms by shipping them to the pen for periods of time.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:19 AM
I really fail to see the logic of sending Hughes back down even if Wang pitches well.
The Red Sox has been moving Masterson in and out of rotation for a while. I don't see why we can't do the same.
Wang back in rotation (if he pitches well) and Hughes to the pen for 2IP+ duties in close games when the starter pitches less than 6 innings.Masterson doesn't have 1/10th of the ability Hughes does. He projects as a long term reliever and a spot starter. Hughes projects as a top of the rotation starter. They shouldn't be treated the same way.
kongull
04-29-09, 11:23 AM
Masterson doesn't have 1/10th of the ability Hughes does. He projects as a long term reliever and a spot starter. Hughes projects as a top of the rotation starter. They shouldn't be treated the same way.
masterson is much better than a "spot starter" He is very valuable to a teams pitching staff.
Hellsing
04-29-09, 11:23 AM
I really fail to see the logic of sending Hughes back down even if Wang pitches well.
The Red Sox has been moving Masterson in and out of rotation for a while. I don't see why we can't do the same.
Wang back in rotation (if he pitches well) and Hughes to the pen for 2IP+ duties in close games when the starter pitches less than 6 innings.
Hughes and Joba are both very young, and I would not be surprised at all if we use this opportunity to limit innings on both arms by shipping them to the pen for periods of time.
I respectfully disagree with your suggestion of moving Hughes to the pen.
If ANYONE gets moved to the pen, it should be Joba. Why? He's BEEN there before and DOMINATED. He was completely and utterly DOMINANT.
AFAIK, Hughes has never been a reliever.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:24 AM
masterson is much better than a "spot starter" He is very valuable to a teams pitching staff.As a RP/Spot starter.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 11:24 AM
Masterson doesn't have 1/10th of the ability Hughes does. He projects as a long term reliever and a spot starter. Hughes projects as a top of the rotation starter. They shouldn't be treated the same way.
I couldn't disagree with this assessment more.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:25 AM
I couldn't disagree with this assessment more.If you wanna disagree, fine. But thats his track record.
kongull
04-29-09, 11:25 AM
As a RP/Spot starter.
As a pitcher.
kongull
04-29-09, 11:26 AM
If you wanna disagree, fine. But thats his track record.
his track record is a 150+ ERA.
I couldn't disagree with this assessment more.
He looks very good, I'm quite POed about it.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:26 AM
As a pitcher.Huh? What are RP/Spot starters? Outfielders?
If you wanna disagree, fine. But thats his track record.
:D:D:D:D You just never stop, do you?
I respectfully disagree with your suggestion of moving Hughes to the pen.
If ANYONE gets moved to the pen, it should be Joba. Why? He's BEEN there before and DOMINATED. He was completely and utterly DOMINANT.
AFAIK, Hughes has never been a reliever.
I am saying Hughes to the pen is a better option than sending him back to minors.
And since both Joba and Hughes will be on some type of innings limit, I wouldn't be surprised if BOTH spend some time in the pen.
I don't necessarily expect it or even recommend it, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the organization uses this chance to limit workload on both very young arms.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 11:27 AM
If you wanna disagree, fine. But thats his track record.
No, it's not his track record, you're making that stuff up. Not to mention Masterson has been dominant in the majors in any role he's been in. You are selling Masterson waaay short.
Also, find me a scouting report within the last year or two that still thinks Hughes is a top of the rotation guy.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:27 AM
his track record is a 150+ ERA.In 100 major league innings with mediocre peripherals and low BABIP's.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:28 AM
No, it's not his track record, you're making that stuff up. You are selling Masterson waaay short.
Also, find me a scouting report within the last year or two that still thinks Hughes is a top of the rotation guy.So he's a completely different pitcher at 22 then he was at 20? Give me a break.
kongull
04-29-09, 11:28 AM
In 100 major league innings with mediocre peripherals and low BABIP's.
Regardless of the peripherals, his track record is 150 ERA+.
Track record = in the past.
However he got there he got there.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:29 AM
Regardless of the peripherals, his track record is 150 ERA+.
Track record = in the past.
However he got there he got there.You're not looking at his whole track record.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 11:30 AM
So he's a completely different pitcher at 22 then he was at 20? Give me a break.
You're head is so far in the sand, it's astounding.
Masterson, as a starter over 11 games is
6-3 with 3.34 ERA and 64.2 IP and 1.253 WHIP.
That's front of rotation stuff.
I can't even read your posts but just looking at what's quoted I'd say it's you that need to give us a break.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:32 AM
You're head is so far in the sand, it's astounding.You have something against him for some reason. He's the SAME GUY he was when he was the best prospect in baseball and dominated every single level of minors. Anyone who gave up on Hughes because he didn't come RIGHT UP and become one of the best pitchers in baseball right away is being nothing but short sighted.
smckdwn989
04-29-09, 11:32 AM
You're head is so far in the sand, it's astounding.
united we stand javy... united to fight the good fight :).
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 11:32 AM
Masterson has impressive stuff, aside from the positive results.
effdamets
04-29-09, 11:33 AM
Masterson, as a starter over 11 games is
6-3 with 3.34 ERA and 64.2 IP and 1.253 WHIP.
That's front of rotation stuff.
I can't even read your posts but just looking at what's quoted I'd say it's you that need to give us a break.
Unfortunately.... I have to agree with this... grrrrrr :mad:
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:33 AM
Masterson, as a starter over 11 games is
6-3 with 3.34 ERA and 64.2 IP and 1.253 WHIP.
That's front of rotation stuff.
I can't even read your posts but just looking at what's quoted I'd say it's you that need to give us a break.With a low BABIP and bad peripherals. Sinkerballers who walk people don't succeed long term.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 11:34 AM
Masterson has impressive stuff, aside from the positive results.
His fastball is easily a plus for me.
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 11:35 AM
His fastball is easily a plus for me.
It's got the velocity and movement you'd want all your starters to have.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:36 AM
Boston doesn't even view him as a long term starter or he would've started the season in their rotation.
I strongly recommend the ignore list feature
http://forums.nyyfans.com/profile.php?do=editlist
ArodMVP217
04-29-09, 11:36 AM
Masterson has impressive stuff, aside from the positive results.
look at his minor league stats and you will get really pissed off
Masterson, as a starter over 11 games is
6-3 with 3.34 ERA and 64.2 IP and 1.253 WHIP.
That's front of rotation stuff.
I can't even read your posts but just looking at what's quoted I'd say it's you that need to give us a break.
He really has turned it up in the Bigs. Kind of annoying, really.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:37 AM
look at his minor league stats and you will get really pissed offYou won't get pissed off. You'll just know whats going to happen before other people do.
Hellsing
04-29-09, 11:39 AM
Masterson, Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Papelbon....
Tell me....
Who has the better run organization?
Masterson, Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Papelbon....
Tell me....
Who has the better run organization?
The Patriots!
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:41 AM
Masterson, Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Papelbon....
Tell me....
Who has the better run organization?I wouldn't be supprised AT ALL if Joba, Hughes, Melancon and Cano have better careers when it's all said and done than Lester Masterson Paplebon and Pedroia. Don't jump on Mike Francesa's bandwaggon. The yankees have tons of good young players too. BTW Youkilis was drafted before this regime got there.
Masterson, Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Papelbon....
Tell me....
Who has the better run organization?
Manchester United.
smckdwn989
04-29-09, 11:45 AM
The Patriots!
i lol'd.
Mantle'sMutt
04-29-09, 11:46 AM
Masterson, Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Papelbon....
Tell me....
Who has the better run organization?
What is the price of whitefish? This question has equal relevance to the Masterson/Hughes discussion as does your question.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 11:48 AM
One more thing before I go. If the Yankees win the first 2 games of that series like they should've, NO ONE is talking about how much better an organization Boston is. All this is is people overreacting to a few tough losses.
Mantle'sMutt
04-29-09, 11:49 AM
One more thing before I go. If the Yankees win the first 2 games of that series like they should've, NO ONE is talking about how much better an organization Boston is. All this is is people overreacting to a few tough losses.
No one, indeed.
Hellsing
04-29-09, 11:52 AM
What is the price of whitefish? This question has equal relevance to the Masterson/Hughes discussion as does your question.
From the Boston Fish Mongers or New York Fish Markets?
Getting back on track, the Angels should be a nice test for Hughes. If he can throw up a quality start against that infuriating team I will be well pleased.
It's got the velocity and movement you'd want all your starters to have.
And his velocity has improved over last season. Guess ThunderFan wasn't looking...
Hellsing
04-29-09, 11:54 AM
One more thing before I go. If the Yankees win the first 2 games of that series like they should've, NO ONE is talking about how much better an organization Boston is. All this is is people overreacting to a few tough losses.
Winning a few games has NOTHING to do with it. The Yankees are, IMHO, the better team. The Red Sox are, IMHO, a better run organization.
Merely commenting on how well the Red Sox have been developing players.
Ynkcpt23
04-29-09, 11:55 AM
Getting back on track, the Angels should be a nice test for Hughes. If he can throw up a quality start against that infuriating team I will be well pleased.
Second this. Something is off with us when we play the Halos--for some reason they just seem to kill us every year. It would be a very good thing if Hughes pitched another terrific game. (just being able to say "another" just made me smile)
Boston doesn't even view him as a long term starter or he would've started the season in their rotation.
Real post of genius.
Hellsing
04-29-09, 11:57 AM
Getting back on track, the Angels should be a nice test for Hughes. If he can throw up a quality start against that infuriating team I will be well pleased.
Detroit is a pretty good hitting team with a lot of veterans.
But being in front of HIS home crowd should be a good test.
In 100 major league innings with mediocre peripherals and low BABIP's.
What are his mediocre peripherals?
Actually, looking through the schedule - unless I am mistaken - there are no easy starts in store for him over the next few weeks. I believe he is in line to face Baltimore, Toronto, Baltimore, Philadelphia and then Cleveland the rest of this month (if he is up that long). We should definitely get a good look at what we have here in Mr. Hughes.
What are his mediocre peripherals?
I think he means that Masterson has a low K, high BB rates (or at least he did last year; I just checked and he had a 4.1 BB/9 and a 6.9 K/9 which isn't great). And FTR, I still hate his delivery; he's never going to be great against lefty hitters with that delivery.
But since this is the Hughes thread and has nothing to do with the Red Sox, I will say that Phil was awesome last night and I hope he keeps it up.
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 12:37 PM
I love those Bugs Bunny pitches - wish I could have seen this game because I've only been able to watch Huges twice. It would have been interesting to compare those starts with this one. Unfortunately, ESPN showed the offense and barely mentioned Hughes.
Baseball Tonight (I only clicked on it to see if they would mention Phil) talked about him and so did MLB - everyone was impressed and why wouldn't they be? LOL
Phil, while up here, can get some pointers on his change, cutter, curve by Edward/Mo/AJ - not bad huh?
hatfieldms
04-29-09, 12:37 PM
Boston doesn't even view him as a long term starter or he would've started the season in their rotation.
So does that mean the Yankees don't view hughes as a long term started since you know, he didnt start the year off in the rotation?
effdamets
04-29-09, 12:49 PM
So does that mean the Yankees don't view hughes as a long term started since you know, he didnt start the year off in the rotation?
Ouch.
Waitinfor27
04-29-09, 12:51 PM
So does that mean the Yankees don't view hughes as a long term started since you know, he didnt start the year off in the rotation?
Different scenario. Hughes is viewed as a long term starter, he simply started in AAA to get more seasoning in before he came up to The Show for good. Masterson pitched in both the rotation and the pen last year, and clearly the Red Sox preferred him in the pen, as that's where he started this year. He came out of the pen because Boston needed him to start. Kind of the same situation that the Red Sox had with Papelbon. He started as a starter, the Red Sox put him in the bullpen, he almost came back out, but then he said he wanted to stay.
Hughes never flirted with being a relief pitcher. That's the difference.
ymike673
04-29-09, 01:02 PM
That seems to be the plan.
Unless the Yankees try to sign Halladay. (Free agent after 2009).
Hellsing
04-29-09, 01:04 PM
Unless the Yankees try to sign Halliday. (Free agent after 2009).
As much as I like Halladay, the payroll is already out of control.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 01:04 PM
Roy Halladay is not a FA after this season.
hatfieldms
04-29-09, 01:05 PM
Different scenario. Hughes is viewed as a long term starter, he simply started in AAA to get more seasoning in before he came up to The Show for good. Masterson pitched in both the rotation and the pen last year, and clearly the Red Sox preferred him in the pen, as that's where he started this year. He came out of the pen because Boston needed him to start. Kind of the same situation that the Red Sox had with Papelbon. He started as a starter, the Red Sox put him in the bullpen, he almost came back out, but then he said he wanted to stay.
Hughes never flirted with being a relief pitcher. That's the difference.
Or it could be there was no room for him in the rotation or they were just bringing him along slowly
machphantom
04-29-09, 01:12 PM
To say that the Yankees kept down Hughes because they didn't think he had the stuff is ridiculous. Look how insanely long the Rays have held Price in their farm. Everyone knows that kid is going to be a star.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 01:13 PM
So does that mean the Yankees don't view hughes as a long term started since you know, he didnt start the year off in the rotation?Look at their ages and get a better argument.
SLURPEE
04-29-09, 01:16 PM
The Patriots!
Nope, the New York Football Giants. :D
SLURPEE
04-29-09, 01:21 PM
I wouldn't be supprised AT ALL if Joba, Hughes, Melancon and Cano have better careers when it's all said and done than Lester Masterson Paplebon and Pedroia. Don't jump on Mike Francesa's bandwaggon. The yankees have tons of good young players too. BTW Youkilis was drafted before this regime got there.
They do and many don't talk about it. But the RS always get the accolades.
It's just the Yankees younger guys are coming up slower then the RS.
Bet the RS wish they had some of the catching prospects the Yankees have....
hatfieldms
04-29-09, 01:23 PM
Look at their ages and get a better argument.
Yeah masterson is a whopping year and a half older. What was I thinking?
If you mean Cervelli and Montero, they are REALLLY far from hitting the majors.
It's true the Red Sox doesn't have a high ceiling prospect at C, but their Dusty Brown is closer to the majors than anyone we have.
They would definitely take Cervelli/Montero if they had the chance, but I think salivating is pushing it.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 01:27 PM
They do and many don't talk about it. But the RS always get the accolades.
It's just the Yankees younger guys are coming up slower then the RS.
Bet the RS wish they had some of the catching prospects the Yankees have....Good post. The yankee system is nowhere near as bad as people in the New York Media portray it.
CommerceComet
04-29-09, 02:10 PM
The best approach to take with Phil is cautious optimism. This is a caution which should be standard procedure for all youngsters. No matter how talented, getting a prospect up to big leagues standards is a learning process with some inevitable bumps along the way. As fans we tend to get too excited by a good performance from a youngster and too depressed by a poor performance. While last night showed Hughes can pitch at a high level in the bigs, it doesn't prove that he can consistently pitch at a high level in the bigs which is what the Yankees really expect and need out of Hughes.
That said, it was great to see that excellent performance out of Hughes last night.
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 02:10 PM
So what have we determined? That JVIS cares about scouting reports from last year or the year before that said Phil would not be a front of the line starter? That he still isn't high on Phil? I doubt the scouts saw him last night and even if they did, who cares? If he throws a few more games like this or at least shows stuff like this (even if he gets hit), wanna bet the scouting reports are going to change? The kid that pitched last night is 22....only 22....and he's now got two curves, a cutter and the two FB. He's also working on a change...and again he's 22 with the poise of a 32 year old. I expect him to be a stud and I've said it consistently. It's just my opinion, though- I'm not going to proclaim it as fact like those who are absolutely dead certain that he will never be more than a # 3 or #4.
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 02:12 PM
I expect Hughes2.50 to make his long-awaited triumphant return any day now...
I think he sent his wife Rocketbooster here to hang with us in his absence.
ymike673
04-29-09, 02:13 PM
As much as I like Halladay, the payroll is already out of control.
Nady, Damon, Matsui & Pettitte come off the books after 2009.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 02:19 PM
So what have we determined? That JVIS cares about scouting reports from last year or the year before that said Phil would not be a front of the line starter? That he still isn't high on Phil? I doubt the scouts saw him last night and even if they did, who cares? If he throws a few more games like this or at least shows stuff like this (even if he gets hit), wanna bet the scouting reports are going to change? The kid that pitched last night is 22....only 22....and he's now got two curves, a cutter and the two FB. He's also working on a change...and again he's 22 with the poise of a 32 year old. I expect him to be a stud and I've said it consistently. It's just my opinion, though- I'm not going to proclaim it as fact like those who are absolutely dead certain that he will never be more than a # 3 or #4.
Sigh...
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 02:20 PM
I expect Hughes2.50 to make his long-awaited triumphant return any day now...
I think he sent his wife Rocketbooster here to hang with us in his absence.
LOL.....I know you were joking (I think you were?) ,but I don't think I said anything "out of line". If people want to think he's still no more than a #3 or 4, so be it. We're going to have to wait and see
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 02:22 PM
Sigh...
I don't get it.... it's ok for you to make declarations that Phil doesn't have good stuff and he should be nothing more than trade bait, but I can't have an opposite opinion without getting a condescending response? Whatever.....when Wang comes back, Phil will go back down and we won't have to deal with this until next year.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 02:24 PM
I don't get it.... it's ok for you to make declarations that Phil doesn't have good stuff and he should be nothing more than trade bait, but I can't have an opposite opinion without getting a condescending response? Whatever.....when Wang comes back, Phil will go back down and we won't have to deal with this until next year.
All I've done since Phil's start is compliment him.
Not to mention you are taking a lot of stuff (Hughes v Materson) out of context.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 02:29 PM
If you mean Cervelli and Montero, they are REALLLY far from hitting the majors.
It's true the Red Sox doesn't have a high ceiling prospect at C, but their Dusty Brown is closer to the majors than anyone we have.
They would definitely take Cervelli/Montero if they had the chance, but I think salivating is pushing it.You forgot Romine.
Brick Tamland
04-29-09, 02:38 PM
Getting back on track, the Angels should be a nice test for Hughes. If he can throw up a quality start against that infuriating team I will be well pleased.
Yep that will be a good test. I don't want to get too excited about Phil until he can display some consistency. But I think he will be staying up with the big club for a while.
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 02:38 PM
LOL.....I know you were joking (I think you were?) ,but I don't think I said anything "out of line". If people want to think he's still no more than a #3 or 4, so be it. We're going to have to wait and see
I was definitely joking. I am happy for you today.
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 02:39 PM
All I've done since Phil's start is compliment him.
Not to mention you are taking a lot of stuff (Hughes v Materson) out of context.
You're right - you have been and I apologize.
However, here is your quote:
*****No, it's not his track record, you're making that stuff up. Not to mention Masterson has been dominant in the majors in any role he's been in. You are selling Masterson waaay short.
Also, find me a scouting report within the last year or two that still thinks Hughes is a top of the rotation guy****
I can't debate over Masterson because I'm not familiar enough with him beyond saying that he's obviously had success in the majors - and I don't think that was the point of the discussion anyway. The scouting reports last year were rough on Phil, but I always believed that they were rather premature because he simply wasn't healthy. Also, I just think they jumped the gun way too soon on a 22 year old. It actually doesn't bother me at this point whether the Laws of the world think he's going to be an ace, a #2, a #3 or whatever because I believe that only Phil can determine the arc of his career. Scouting reports are subject to change - a few more starts like last nights (or again, where he shows that he's got the stuff and the pitches even if he gets hit) and those reports will be revised upwards.
That said, the discussion involved putting Phil in the pen, an idea which I don't like at all.
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 02:49 PM
I was definitely joking. I am happy for you today.
I appreciate it.....thanks! It's hard to follow a prospect though - I get emotionally attached (like I do to all the players, young or old) and I know that's not a good thing because most of them will fail.
I'm mostly happy for Phil because it's his career at stake. Sure I'm happy/thrilled because my favorite youngster has reclaimed his form (at least in one start), but I've always thought that it's a shame when talented prospects don't fulfill their potential and are left with "what ifs" at the end of their careers. Of course Phil has a long way to go, but I find the education of a young pitcher to be a fascinating process (though I could do without the heartache of injuries, lol).
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-29-09, 02:59 PM
You're right - you have been and I apologize.
However, here is your quote:
*****No, it's not his track record, you're making that stuff up. Not to mention Masterson has been dominant in the majors in any role he's been in. You are selling Masterson waaay short.
Also, find me a scouting report within the last year or two that still thinks Hughes is a top of the rotation guy****
I can't debate over Masterson because I'm not familiar enough with him beyond saying that he's obviously had success in the majors - and I don't think that was the point of the discussion anyway. The scouting reports last year were rough on Phil, but I always believed that they were rather premature because he simply wasn't healthy. Also, I just think they jumped the gun way too soon on a 22 year old. It actually doesn't bother me at this point whether the Laws of the world think he's going to be an ace, a #2, a #3 or whatever because I believe that only Phil can determine the arc of his career. Scouting reports are subject to change - a few more starts like last nights (or again, where he shows that he's got the stuff and the pitches even if he gets hit) and those reports will be revised upwards.
That said, the discussion involved putting Phil in the pen, an idea which I don't like at all.
I was just saying that Hughes hasn't projected to be a front of the line rotation type for a while now because that is what the poster brought up (projections). That's not to say those projections can't change going forward.
Rocketbooster
04-29-09, 03:00 PM
Did anyone listen to Michael Kay today? I wanted to hear what he thought about Phil, but I missed it. Thanks!
Melan-cynic
04-29-09, 03:04 PM
Masterson doesn't have 1/10th of the ability Hughes does. He projects as a long term reliever and a spot starter. Hughes projects as a top of the rotation starter. They shouldn't be treated the same way.
I'd take Hughes over Masterson, but saying he doesn't have 1/10th the ability of Phil is absurd. Let's be real here.
I would step back a moment with Hughes. He was great last night, but he still had some of the same problems from last year. The difference was his fastball looked a lot better, but I don't know if that's going to be on all the time.
I'd like to see the curve more consistent, and him to actually throw the changeup a little more. I don't know why he seems so scared to throw it in the big leagues. He may not have perfect command with it, but it'll be difficult to ever gain command until you throw it enough in game situations. With the speed differential between his fastball-change-curve, he could really keep hitters even more off-balance.
aeromac76
04-29-09, 03:06 PM
I'd take Hughes over Masterson, but saying he doesn't have 1/10th the ability of Phil is absurd. Let's be real here.
I would as well. I think Phil has more of a chance to be a better pitcher.
But if Justin wound up with the better career 15 years from now, I would not by any means be shocked..
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 03:06 PM
I'd take Hughes over Masterson, but saying he doesn't have 1/10th the ability of Phil is absurd. Let's be real here.
At least TF is consistent.
35Knucklecurve
04-29-09, 03:10 PM
Nady, Damon, Matsui & Pettitte come off the books after 2009.
One thing that concerns me about Halladay is the mileage on that arm. He's thrown a lot of complete games. However, he seems to follow a pattern - his ERA goes up and down from one year to the next except for 2006 and 2007 when he was over 3.00:
1999 TOR 8 7 3.92 36 18 1 1 1 1 149.1 156 76 65 19 4 79 82 .276 1.57 1.20 1 141
2000 TOR 4 7 10.64 19 13 0 0 0 0 67.2 107 87 80 14 2 42 44 .357 2.20 1.24 1 141
2001 TOR 5 3 3.16 17 16 1 1 0 0 105.1 97 41 37 3 1 25 96 .241 1.16 2.41 1 141
2002 TOR 19 7 2.93 34 34 2 1 0 0 239.1 223 93 78 10 7 62 168 .244 1.19 2.19 1 141
2003 TOR 22 7 3.25 36 36 9 2 0 0 266.0 253 111 96 26 9 32 204 .247 1.07 2.32 1 141
2004 TOR 8 8 4.20 21 21 1 1 0 0 133.0 140 66 62 13 1 39 95 .272 1.35 1.91 1 141
2005 TOR 12 4 2.4119 19 5 2 0 0 141.2 118 39 38 11 7 18 108 .225 0.96 2.39 1 141
2006 TOR 16 5 3.19 32 32 4 0 0 0 220.0 208 82 78 19 5 34 132 .251 1.10 2.18 1 141
2007 TOR 16 7 3.71 31 7 1 0 0 225.1 232 101 93 15 3 48 139 .268 1.24 1.76 1 141
2008 TOR 20 11 2.78 34 33 9 2 0 0 246.0 220 88 76 18 12 39 206 .237 1.05 1.73 1 141
2009 TOR 4 1 3.75
teknetic
04-29-09, 03:11 PM
If you mean Cervelli and Montero, they are REALLLY far from hitting the majors.
It's true the Red Sox doesn't have a high ceiling prospect at C, but their Dusty Brown is closer to the majors than anyone we have.
They would definitely take Cervelli/Montero if they had the chance, but I think salivating is pushing it. I wouldn't be surprised if Montero was up here by the end of next year. I'm not sure how "salivating" is pushing it, the dude is a complete monster.
THEBOSS84
04-29-09, 03:12 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Montero was up here by the end of next year. I'm not sure how "salivating" is pushing it, the dude is a complete monster.
Me neither. He is so advanced for his league. If other 20-21 year old position players can make the majors, I'm not sure why he can't (other than defense I suppose).
Melan-cynic
04-29-09, 03:13 PM
At least TF is consistent.
And I will concede I am one of the biggest Hughes fans alive, but I like to keep the "boy" part out of that description because fanboys are simply annoying. And apologies for the Masterson retread of the thread, didn't realize I was so late to the party and felt compelled to respond.
Yankees13
04-29-09, 03:13 PM
It interesting that everything has come full circle with regard to the Yankees' young arms. Now everyone is bullish on Hughes, and bearish on Joba. Phil certainly looked like the old Phil Hughes last night.
Yankee Tripper
04-29-09, 03:14 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Montero was up here by the end of next year. I'm not sure how "salivating" is pushing it, the dude is a complete monster.
I think the depends on whether or not they want him to stick at C. If they do expect him to stay at C I'd be surprised to see him before 2011 because he defense by all accounts is brutal but improving. If they plan on moving him to a corner OF or DH I could see them fast tracking him for the 2nd half of 2010. It'd be quick but not unheard of.
Not sure how this relates to Hughes though.
teknetic
04-29-09, 03:15 PM
Masterson, Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Papelbon....
Tell me....
Who has the better run organization? Why do Yankee fans keep bragging about Ellsbury and Lowrie? Wang, Cano, Joba, Hughes (unless you wanna throw out the whole #1 PP in the minors and all that junk) with Melancon, Jackson, Montero, Brackman, and Betances. It's a damn landslide!
DEADSOX
04-29-09, 03:17 PM
One thing that concerns me about Halladay is the mileage on that arm. He's thrown a lot of complete games.
He's also thrown a lot of them in less than 100 pitches.
Melan-cynic
04-29-09, 03:19 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Montero was up here by the end of next year. I'm not sure how "salivating" is pushing it, the dude is a complete monster.
I agree. But at the same time I feel like that's giving the org. too much credit. I feel like the Yankees recently got the guide on how not to ruin a top prospect and Cash intends to follow it to the "T" because he's so scared he'll be destroyed by everyone in baseball should he kill a prospect of Montero's caliber.
teknetic
04-29-09, 03:29 PM
I agree. But do you think you might be giving the org. too much credit? I feel like the Yankees recently got the guide on how not to ruin a top prospect and Cash intends to follow it to the "T" because he's so scared he'll be destroyed by everyone in baseball should he kill a prospect of Montero's caliber. Montero can't be ruined.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 03:29 PM
I'd take Hughes over Masterson, but saying he doesn't have 1/10th the ability of Phil is absurd. Let's be real here.Not absurd at all. I believe Hughes is going to be a legitimate no 1 starter and that Masterson will be a decent set up man.
Melan-cynic
04-29-09, 03:30 PM
Montero can't be ruined.
Tek I'm with you, I'm operating through the eyes of the Yankees brass, however.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 03:30 PM
I agree. But at the same time I feel like that's giving the org. too much credit. I feel like the Yankees recently got the guide on how not to ruin a top prospect and Cash intends to follow it to the "T" because he's so scared he'll be destroyed by everyone in baseball should he kill a prospect of Montero's caliber.What prospects have they "ruined?"
Melan-cynic
04-29-09, 03:31 PM
Not absurd at all. I believe Hughes is going to be a legitimate no 1 starter and that Masterson will be a decent set up man.
Which still does not quantify an absurd statement such as "Masterson doesn't have 1/10th the ability of Hughes."
Melan-cynic
04-29-09, 03:33 PM
What prospects have they "ruined?"
Who said they did. I said think they're so afraid of rushing an excellent prospect that they could be cautious to a fault.
ThunderFan
04-29-09, 03:33 PM
Who said they did. I said think they're so afraid of rushing an excellent prospect that they could be cautious to a fault.It's impossible to know how true that is.
hughes looked great, but i'm not going to get excited until he can string together 3 or 4 solid starts in a row..
i've seen this movie before
Melan-cynic
04-29-09, 03:37 PM
It's impossible to know how true that is.
Which is why I said the Yankees "could" and not "would" fall victim to such overcautiousness.
Mantle'sMutt
04-29-09, 03:37 PM
hughes looked great, but i'm not going to get excited until he can string together 3 or 4 solid starts in a row..
i've seen this movie before
So you're saying that he has to pitch 3 or 4 solid starts before you can be as excited as some were watching him last night? That's kinda sad. :(;)
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.7 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
0