View Full Version : Pitch F/X Data on Joba 6-8 Start
Now I'm not a pitch F/X guru but it's a cool tool and here is the graphs I like from the 6/8 start. What I see is better command, FB hittng 100 throwing 4 pitches for strikes. A number of those sliders are right over the heart of the plate though a better hitting team may have tagged those.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/slmull2002/Joba6-8php.png
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/slmull2002/Joba6-8bphp.png
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/slmull2002/Joba6-8cphp.png
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/slmull2002/Joba6-8dphp.png
Hellsing
06-10-08, 11:59 AM
Since we're asking questions, I have one...
I noticed on Gameday that ON AVERAGE the release speed of a FB and the result speed of a FB is off by 6-7 MPH.
My question...
When a pitcher's FB is said to have "Late Life", are they referring to the FB keeping its velocity over the distance to home plate?
I would like to see the comparison between pitchers with overpowering FBs ( Joba, Beckett, Burnett, King Felix) and compare them to players with GOOD FBs that have been deemed to have late life. (Hughes, Halladay, etc)
Anyone have data on this?
I took a quick look at Hughes and it really varied. Sometimes it was 8-9 MPH slower and others it is 6-7. EVEN if the release speed was the same, the result speed is not. I am sure there are environmental factors that impact this (humidity), but is there ANY science to the "Late Life" fastball?
Since we're asking questions, I have one...
I noticed on Gameday that ON AVERAGE the release speed of a FB and the result speed of a FB is off by 6-7 MPH.
My question...
When a pitcher's FB is said to have "Late Life", are they referring to the FB keeping its velocity over the distance to home plate?
I would like to see the comparison between pitchers with overpowering FBs ( Joba, Beckett, Burnett, King Felix) and compare them to players with GOOD FBs that have been deemed to have late life. (Hughes, Halladay, etc)
Anyone have data on this?
I took a quick look at Hughes and it really varied. Sometimes it was 8-9 MPH slower and others it is 6-7. EVEN if the release speed was the same, the result speed is not. I am sure there are environmental factors that impact this (humidity), but is there ANY science to the "Late Life" fastball?
I've always thought late life on a fast ball was late movement, Billy Koch was a great example of this he threw 100/101 but strait in, flat. Life on a fast ball I believe refers to movement.
Yankee Tripper
06-10-08, 12:28 PM
I've always thought late life on a fast ball was late movement, Billy Koch was a great example of this he threw 100/101 but strait in, flat. Life on a fast ball I believe refers to movement.Exactly. Late life referes to late movement on the ball.
cyhughes22
06-10-08, 11:17 PM
Exactly. Late life referes to late movement on the ball.
And typically guys with less fast ball have more movement on it. That's why you hear about guys like Hughes and Halladay having late life. Sure they throw it 92-94 which is reasonably hard but they also have good movement as the ball crosses the plate. This is much more difficult for guys like Joba or Beckett who throw so hard and get such great rotation on the ball that they're ball just doesn't move as much because it crosses the plate quicker. It's actually the difference between Roger Clemens in Boston and Roger Clemens in Toronto and New York for instance. He didn't throw every pitch at 96 anymore but his fastball had more late life at 94-95 in mid to late 30's than in his younger years. Verlander is really the exception to this rule because his fastball runs a lot more than you'd expect for somebody who throws that hard but he's just a freak of nature.
BrooksBaseball
06-11-08, 09:43 AM
Hi guys. Graphs came from my website, so I figured I'd jump in:
For the most part, you guys are talking about the distinction between 2seam and 4seam fastballs. 2seam fastballs tend to be slightly slower with slightly more horizontal movement, whereas 4seam fastballs tend to be faster with slightly more "upward" movement (pitches do not actually move upward, just upward relative to a pitch with no spin). Many pitchers actually throw both pitches, and so technically have two different fastballs. For example, Jon Lester of the Red Sox has two very distinct pitches that both get lumped into the category "fastball".
For the most part, Joba throws a 4seam fastball, though he did break out the 2seamer for 3 or 4 pitches in his first start.
"Late Life" is a bit of a misnomer in that pitches cannot suddenly bend or twist upon being closer to the plate. Since it is a physical object, it obeys the laws of physics. While it can appear to be moving "more" as it gets closer to the plate, it is actually following the same trajectory the entire time it approaches it's final location (unless we are talking about a knuckleball, but we're not =) ).
I thought that as the ball slowed approaching the plate the amount of spin would alter the trajectory slightly.
And typically guys with less fast ball have more movement on it.
Do you mean a slower fastball?
LovelyLady114
06-11-08, 12:50 PM
I follow Gameday at work during day games and I have no clue about those pitch specifics that they show. What exactly is Pitch F/X and break???
"Late Life" is a bit of a misnomer in that pitches cannot suddenly bend or twist upon being closer to the plate. Since it is a physical object, it obeys the laws of physics. While it can appear to be moving "more" as it gets closer to the plate, it is actually following the same trajectory the entire time it approaches it's final location (unless we are talking about a knuckleball, but we're not =) ).
If aerodynamic forces are acting on the ball -- which they are due to the spin and the stitches in the ball -- then I find it hard to believe a ball simply follows the same trajectory the entire time it approaches the plate.
Are you suggesting a sinker is nothing more than a pitch thrown in such a way that it gradually slopes down as it approaches the plate?
It looks like Joba is getting better at getting his change and curve over for strikes. Developing those pitches is a crucial part to his development as a starter.
BrooksBaseball
06-11-08, 12:59 PM
The Gameday Parameters:
Best described in a thread here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77550&page=2
But, here is a recap:
BRK would be "bend".
PFX would be "deflection due to spin".
As in, BRK tells you how "bendy" the trajectory of the pitch was, and PFX tells you how much it deviated from the original course looking primarily at the effects of spin on the ball.
The PFX parameter reported by gameday is: round(sqrt((pfx_x)^2 + (pfx_z)^2)).
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/JnaiJnai/leftyslider.jpg
http://fastballs.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/pfx_break_from_walsh.jpg
The parameters in the pitch plots above for Joba are showing pfx_x and pfx_z (i.e., change in trajectory due to spin), not the BRK variable from gameday.
BrooksBaseball
06-11-08, 01:04 PM
Are you suggesting a sinker is nothing more than a pitch thrown in such a way that it gradually slopes down as it approaches the plate?
No, the slope changes as a function of how far the ball in from the release point (see the trajectory graph above), but, to be perfectly honest, the sinker is best characterized by horizontal (and not vertical movement), at least given by the effects of spin on the ball.
There is no point in the sinker's trajectory where it suddenly veers downward, just like there is no point in the fastball's trajectory where it suddenly "hops", that is all I was saying.
I discovered it looking for some intelligent data on pitching and what pitchers throw. Pitch F/X is a system of camera's installed at all MLB parks to capture info on what a ball does when pitched.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_f/x
http://www.slate.com/id/2172223/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/pitch-identification-tutorial/
These links have lots of info.
I found Brooks Baseballs site off of the Harball Times and it's great for the umps squeezed X argument.
No, the slope changes as a function of how far the ball in from the release point (see the trajectory graph above), but, to be perfectly honest, the sinker is best characterized by horizontal (and not vertical movement), at least given by the effects of spin on the ball.
There is no point in the sinker's trajectory where it suddenly veers downward, just like there is no point in the fastball's trajectory where it suddenly "hops", that is all I was saying.
Sorry, I'm still having trouble understanding your explanation.
When you say, "There is no point in the sinker's trajectory where it suddenly veers downward", are you saying the trajectory is static throughout the ball's journey? Isn't there a point during that journey in which the spin of the ball exerts aerodynamic forces sufficient to actually change the initial trajectory?
BrooksBaseball
06-11-08, 03:29 PM
Sorry, I'm still having trouble understanding your explanation.
When you say, "There is no point in the sinker's trajectory where it suddenly veers downward", are you saying the trajectory is static throughout the ball's journey? Isn't there a point during that journey in which the spin of the ball exerts aerodynamic forces sufficient to actually change the initial trajectory?
Sorry, I did not imply that the "Trajectory" meant that the pitch was straight. The trajectory is curved, in large part due to the spin on the baseball, but it is curved in a regular, smooth manner. It does not magically break downwards.
That spin is part of the original trajectory, if you know the spin and the velocity and I think the release point has something to do with it you can predict where the pitch will end up. If you look at the diagram the break starts at the mid point and most of it is compressed in the last 20 feet.
What he said.
But consider this Their are no magic bullets in baseball.
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