View Full Version : I am so glad the Yankees didnt get Santana
nnysiny
05-11-08, 01:31 PM
when the Johan trade sweepstakes started, i was skeptical. he was certainly going to upgrade the rotation, but giving up Melky plus top prospects was going to be a tough call. the contract was going to be biggest ever for a pitcher, giving the Yankees a lot less flexbility with future free agents. the outfield defense would be severely downgraded, letting a lot of fly balls drop in death valley between Matsui and Damon. but when speculation arose that the Twins might hold on to him for 2008 and let him walk as a FA i said "great! no one would outbid the Yankees for him." in hindsight, even that would be a mistake. his statistical decline can no longer be ignored, and is becoming more dramatic now that he is pitching in a much easier league, with range guys like Beltran and Reyes making things even easier for him.
his 16.6 pitches per inning is his worst since 2002, when he was still being converted to a starter, and is a full pitch per inning worse than last year. the same goes with his 3.96 pitches per plate appearance and 1.11 WHIP. his 106.5 pitches per start is by far his highest of his career, which is even more alarming since his 6.54 innings per start continues another trend, innings per start:
2007: 6.63
2006: 6.87
2005: 7.02
perhaps the most dramatic stats are his 8.94 K/9 and 4.00 K/BB ratio, which arent even close to the roughly 9.65 and 5.00 hes averaged over the past 4 years.
after 8 starts, Satana is on pace for a whopping 35 HRs in both a pitcher's park and a pitcher's league. and if you think this is bad, wait until NL hitters see him the second and third time around. you would think Johan would put up video game numbers his first go around.
and this morning there was this pretty sobering article from the Daily News. yes it's only one game, but keep in mind the Reds are near the bottom in team offense, averaging 4.30 runs a game:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2008/05/10/2008-05-10_johan_santana_seems_slow_to_change_up_me-2.html?page=1
his last three starts he has gone six, six, and 5-2/3 innings, respectively, largely because of high pitch counts.
Willie Randolph (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Willie+Randolph) came close to taking him out with two outs in the sixth, as the Reds rallied. Meanwhile, the 10 hits Santana gave up tied his career-high and he threw 116 pitches on a day when the Reds swung and missed only six times
That changeup is what has made Santana one of the best pitchers in baseball, and it seems he needs it more than ever now that his fastball is usually in the 90-92 mph range, as opposed to 93-95 a couple of years ago.
"He hit 93 once today," said a National League scout at Shea, "but I had him around 90-91 on average
if this is what Johan is doing at age 29 in the first year of a 7-year deal, how much more will he decline by the time he's 35 and making $25.5 mil with a $5.5 mil buyout? his FB is bottoming out around 88 MPH, and i would imagine this is where his FB would be sitting at in his mid-30s.
i think the Pedro similarities are there. the unanimous "best pitcher in baseball" is no longer that. both have a significant reduced velocity before the acquisition. both have satistically declined. both have small pitcher's frames. being less effective is bad enough, but when Johan physically breaks down and makes his first trip to the DL since 2001, Mets fans will want Minaya's head on a platter.
i am so glad the Yankees didnt trade for Santana. hes been a disappointment so far, and the worst is yet to come
The PRO
05-11-08, 02:22 PM
What a shame for the Mets, huh? :lol: I had read some of the stats you talked about before this trade was made and I definitely did not want the Yankees to trade away their future for a pitcher in decline. He is no longer King of the Hill. I think I'd rather have Roy Halliday anyday.
sweet_lou_14
05-11-08, 02:54 PM
Great post, great thread. I do believe we'll look back at Santana as a deal we're glad we didn't make ... even if Hughes and Kennedy don't turn into world beaters.
NYYDragoon
05-11-08, 02:58 PM
I'm really disappointed to see him perform this way. Let's blame it on the Mets.
johnnerr
05-11-08, 04:20 PM
If Mussina can be remotely successful in the majors with his below average fastball, plus curve, average change and great location, then Santana will be successful with a above average fastball, above average slider, and plus plus change and good (if not supposedly great) location. 39 years old compared to 29?
I'm glad the Yankees didn't trade for him. Melky's been big and Hughes will be at the bare minimum a number 3. We probably saved a Horne, McCutchen, Action and Tabata player as well.
DiMaggio5CF
05-11-08, 04:21 PM
Because those numbers are slightly what he's done in the past few years, are we supposed to ignore that they're still very, very good?
I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that his numbers are going to be excellent at year's end. But even if they are, over the next decade or two, Hughes and Kennedy might be even better.
Or we could just judge the entire deal based on one month and eleven days. Either way.
you are insane, we should have johan every 5 days.
27IsNext
05-11-08, 05:43 PM
Johan did himself a favor by signing an extension with a National League team.
I still believe he has health issues, and will be out of baseball in 5 years.
Except for last year, the guy is always better in the second half though. Like huge splits in 2004-2006 Pre and Post allstar break
Unless something really did change last year, I think he'll get better down the stretch again. He's probably going to keep giving up HR though
yankeebot
05-11-08, 07:27 PM
Too soon.
Yankee Fan in Boston
05-11-08, 07:32 PM
Too soon.
What, you want some perspective before you decide on a trade that included at least one minor leaguer and two guys in their early 20s? ;)
sweet_lou_14
05-11-08, 10:17 PM
Because those numbers are slightly what he's done in the past few years, are we supposed to ignore that they're still very, very good?
I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that his numbers are going to be excellent at year's end. But even if they are, over the next decade or two, Hughes and Kennedy might be even better.
Or we could just judge the entire deal based on one month and eleven days. Either way.
If Hughes and Kennedy are still pitching in two decades, that will probably decide the issue. ;)
apalradio
05-11-08, 10:25 PM
His pitch count does look rather high, and to put some perspective on it - that seems to be where he's getting hurt. He cruises through his first three innings. Makes some mistake pitches in the middle innings where he gives up most of his HR's, then gets annihilated after the 7th inning or his 106th pitch, whichever comes first. Wouldn't be surprised if it's just a stamina building issue, considering it's still early and he typically improves as the season progresses. His K/IP and K/BB ratios are still excellent. He'll do well for the Mets. And I think Hughes will eventually do well for the Yanks.
primetime714
05-11-08, 11:24 PM
Except for last year, the guy is always better in the second half though. Like huge splits in 2004-2006 Pre and Post allstar break
Unless something really did change last year, I think he'll get better down the stretch again. He's probably going to keep giving up HR though
I was just about to say that. Look for Santana to have a strong second half once again.
Still I don't regret not making the move for Santana. The Twins wanted way too much from us on top of a record breaking contract.
Plus we'll have the money to sign Sabathia this offseason who might be better than Santana and hasn't shown signs of declining like Santana has.
funny, i was 125% against the santana trade at the time.
now i have done a flip-flop on that issue and wish we had done it.
minor league unproven talent is
well... unproven.
only real loss would have been melky.
i'm real steadfast .... i may do anorther flip-flop later on.
JavyVazquezIsSick
05-12-08, 10:06 AM
I'm not. I'm pretty bitter about it.
JohnnyDamonfan
05-12-08, 10:08 AM
As of now notice that I said AS OF NOW I would trade Hughes and Kennedy in a heart beat. We kinda need Santana right now . With Hughes out and Kennedy down in the minors. Could anybody really say with a straight face that they'd prefer Igawa on the mound instead of Santana? I know Hughes and Kennedy will bounce back and there the much better option in the long run but in the short run we lost out big time.
THEBOSS84
05-12-08, 10:11 AM
The funny thing is that I was in favor of the Santana trade at the time, but now I am not at all.
YankeePride1967
05-12-08, 10:14 AM
While he's pitching "good", he has been far from a $20 million a year plus pitcher that he's getting paid.
effdamets
05-12-08, 10:38 AM
While he's pitching "good", he has been far from a $20 million a year plus pitcher that he's getting paid.
I hear what you are saying here, but who knows what $20 million per season means anymore!
Does that mean he has to be twice as good as 10 million per year Pavano?
With prices/salaries so inflated, what does it mean anymore?
Except for last year, the guy is always better in the second half though. Like huge splits in 2004-2006 Pre and Post allstar break
Unless something really did change last year, I think he'll get better down the stretch again. He's probably going to keep giving up HR though
Correct,,,to be fair he needs to be evaluated after the season...
I'm still glad we didn't get him and he went to the NL.
We will probably play him on Friday...
mitch300
05-12-08, 12:48 PM
I never wanted Santana. I know Hughes has had his problems. But, just look at the competion. When use was pitching against the Red Sox and the n the Tigers, Johan was pitching against the Senators and the Pirates. I hope that fans don't look at Santana's numbers and expected him to put up the same if he was with the Yanks.
primetime714
05-12-08, 01:37 PM
As of now notice that I said AS OF NOW I would trade Hughes and Kennedy in a heart beat. We kinda need Santana right now . With Hughes out and Kennedy down in the minors. Could anybody really say with a straight face that they'd prefer Igawa on the mound instead of Santana? I know Hughes and Kennedy will bounce back and there the much better option in the long run but in the short run we lost out big time.
That's the kind of thinking Cashman was wisely trying to avoid. We all knew we'd be a better team this year with Santana regardless of what we had to give up. However in the long term it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We would've been giving up a cost controlled starting CF in Melky and two young cost controlled starting pitchers.
Next year when our rotation is the following and Hughes and Kennedy are both pitching the way they should everyone will be happy we didn't get Santana:
Sabathia
Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy
This year may be a tough one, but the future of this rotation is extremely bright.
cupcollector99
05-12-08, 02:39 PM
Yeah, getting a solid starting pitcher to work along side Andy, Wang and a surprising Moose would really suck. Imagine what a better rested bullpen could have been able to do too. Maybe he's not 4-2 with an ERA slightly above 3 and a whip of 1.11 in the AL east but I'm pretty sure his ERA would be better than Hughes and Kennedy and maybe the Yanks record would be a few games better in the standings.
Yeah so a better record and a more rested bullpen would really suck.
Then again, he could have caught the pulled quad bug and only had a few starts under his belt too.
Truth is, nobody really knows what Santana could have brought because the NL is different and there should be an adjustment period. Give him a full season before we consider one of the best lefties in the game, a bust. Just because some of us wanted to keep untested rookies and the Minnesota GM was a tool for falling for Theo's tactics of delay and deny, doesn't make Santana a bust.
flymick24
05-12-08, 05:47 PM
giving up the talent plus the money and years never made this potential deal one that made sense for the yankees to begin with
JohnnyDamonfan
05-12-08, 05:56 PM
That's the kind of thinking Cashman was wisely trying to avoid. We all knew we'd be a better team this year with Santana regardless of what we had to give up. However in the long term it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We would've been giving up a cost controlled starting CF in Melky and two young cost controlled starting pitchers.
Next year when our rotation is the following and Hughes and Kennedy are both pitching the way they should everyone will be happy we didn't get Santana:
Sabathia
Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy
This year may be a tough one, but the future of this rotation is extremely bright.
If we actually get Sabathia that would be a wicked rotation. But, right now we're gonna have to choose between Mark or CC. Probably an unproven rookie or Pettitte will get the spot as the fifth man next year. Getting both might be to expensive we could put Mark at first and maybe Shelley as DH. I would like Shelley to be DH. If Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy, have as much of a upside as I've heard. We should be able to have a very pwoerful rotation without Sabathia. We need a better first baseman.
nnysiny
05-12-08, 06:00 PM
Sabathia
Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy
hopefully Andy is convinced to do it one more time:
Sabathia (L)
Wang (R)
Pettitte (L)
Hughes (R)
Joba/Kennedy (R)
:drool:
Ynkcpt23
05-12-08, 07:09 PM
hopefully Andy is convinced to do it one more time:
Sabathia (L)
Wang (R)
Pettitte (L)
Hughes (R)
Joba/Kennedy (R)
:drool:
Don't like to count the chickens, so to speak, but even assuming that CC stays in Cleveland, (Which, generously, is the more likely scenario, esp. considering I imagine he'll use us to ramp up his asking price to fleece the Indians.) we still have a pretty good staff to work with:
Wang (L)
Joba (R)
Pettitte (L)--have a good feeling about this from things he has said.
Hughes (R)
Kennedy (R)
Looky there, all home-grown talent!! Regardless of the disappointing start from Phil and Ian, next year is still looking very good barring serious injury.
Bring in Tex and we add defense, switch hitting offense, and youth. Our infield could arguably be the best we've had in ages defensively. Resign Abreu, make some decision re: RF, use Gonzalez, Betemit and whichever of the young OFs is more ready for the bench.
27IsNext
05-12-08, 07:10 PM
C.C. isn't staying in Cleveland. Them giving Carmona the contract they did pretty much confirms that they can't afford him.
azzurribaggio
05-12-08, 08:01 PM
Why don't we give the Rocket a call :)
teknetic
05-12-08, 08:01 PM
Can he hit?
ArodMVP217
05-12-08, 09:24 PM
C.C. isn't staying in Cleveland. Them giving Carmona the contract they did pretty much confirms that they can't afford him.
I hope you really don't mean that.
27IsNext
05-12-08, 09:28 PM
I hope you really don't mean that.
Just checked his contract, and Fausto didn't get nearly as much as I thought. Still, his salary goes up annually, and it's already been said by many that the Indians won't be able to afford the Johan Santana money that C.C. will likely command.
ArodMVP217
05-12-08, 11:30 PM
if anything, it shows more of a "commitment of excellence" to the player, in addition to a backup plan and a no-brainer
but yea, CC got this far. he is going to free agency. In the sweepstakes to get Carsten, and yes, i want to get him, i'd be most afraid of The rangers after learning they wanted to get teh package of torii and johan. their fans show the most support of the non-contenders imo
YanksFan1992
05-12-08, 11:45 PM
I'm still glad we didn't make the trade, but Santana is a darn good pitcher and will continue to be for a long time in my opinion.
yankeeman61
05-13-08, 08:51 AM
Understanding what the cost would have been (too high), I am not "glad" the Yankees didn't get Santana. How could you not want a left handed pitcher that you just hand the ball to every 5th day and know you had a very good chance for a dominating win? The thing that sucks in this whole thing is the Yankee price and I don't blame them for not paying it. But the truth is if the Yankees hadn't made so many other poor decisions in previous years to bring in established "stars" this likely would have been a no-brainer. At least the absolute worst didn't happen. If the Red Sox had gotten him cheap we would be looking at dominance for the next several years, barring major injuries. I just don't see the decline in Santana that some are predicting and hoping for. Who knows what Hughes will become? We are all hoping it's at least a #2 with high hopes for a #1. If it turns out he is a #3 at best, we'll know what the right decision would have been.
THEBOSS84
05-13-08, 08:52 AM
Based on some comments from Randolph in today's Post, it looks like Santana will in fact start vs us on Friday night.
Right now, it doesn't appear that the young arm strategy is paying off. Maybe it would have been better to start one of the 2 in the bull pen.
I'm still glad we didn't make the trade, but Santana is a darn good pitcher and will continue to be for a long time in my opinion.
Ta cause hughes and ipk are amazing lol......ipk is a good 5th starter and hughes if hes not hurt all the time a good 3ed....santana is just a great number 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
CallOfTheCrow
05-14-08, 02:25 PM
Ta cause hughes and ipk are amazing lol......ipk is a good 5th starter and hughes if hes not hurt all the time a good 3ed....santana is just a great number 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Are you 12?
THEBOSS84
05-14-08, 02:28 PM
Are you 12?
I was gonna say something along the line of I thought grade school doesn't get out until 3:30, but decided against it.
I was gonna say something along the line of I thought grade school doesn't get out until 3:30, but decided against it.
No 15 and been a season ticket holder since i was 7 so blow off
THEBOSS84
05-14-08, 02:32 PM
No 15 and been a season ticket holder since i was 7 so blow off
Ok I'm blowing off now.
Stick Michael
05-14-08, 03:00 PM
No 15 and been a season ticket holder since i was 7 so blow off
Child labor laws?! Hello?!
CallOfTheCrow
05-14-08, 03:45 PM
No 15 and been a season ticket holder since i was 7 so blow off
This reminds me of some of the Red Sox fans I know who back in '04 when they were still 20, kept saying how they waited 86 years to see a championship.
AlbanyColonieYankee
05-14-08, 05:10 PM
As of now notice that I said AS OF NOW I would trade Hughes and Kennedy in a heart beat. We kinda need Santana right now . With Hughes out and Kennedy down in the minors. Could anybody really say with a straight face that they'd prefer Igawa on the mound instead of Santana? I know Hughes and Kennedy will bounce back and there the much better option in the long run but in the short run we lost out big time.
Yes, but right now the short run is a month and a half. The long run will be a lot longer.
I think another thing that people are underestimating is how big of a loss Melky would have been. I don't know about the rest of you, but every time I see Damon in center, I cringe. Melky has been hitting well and his defense has saved more than a couple of runs so far this season. I found it unbelievable last season when so many people here thought that he was as good as he was going to get, at age 22.
Yankee Tripper
05-14-08, 05:36 PM
Yes, but right now the short run is a month and a half. The long run will be a lot longer.
I think another thing that people are underestimating is how big of a loss Melky would have been. I don't know about the rest of you, but every time I see Damon in center, I cringe. Melky has been hitting well and his defense has saved more than a couple of runs so far this season. I found it unbelievable last season when so many people here thought that he was as good as he was going to get, at age 22.Yeah that was part of the problem with the deal but I suspect if the Yanks had gotten Santana it would have been, "in for a penny in for a pound" and they would have thrown too much money at either Aaron Rowand (who has been good but probably won't live up to the SF contract he signed especially on the back end) or Andrew Jones (who has been downright awful).
I don't think we'll be able to fully evalute this trade/non-trade for about 4 or 5 years. Unless of course Santana is the winning pitcher in the Mets world series clincher against us in which case we'll all be bitching about how we didn't get Johan.
AlbanyColonieYankee
05-14-08, 05:40 PM
I don't think we'll be able to fully evalute this trade/non-trade for about 4 or 5 years. Unless of course Santana is the winning pitcher in the Mets world series clincher against us in which case we'll all be bitching about how we didn't get Johan.
You are right about that...but that won't stop everyone from trying :D
Yankee Tripper
05-14-08, 05:55 PM
You are right about that...but that won't stop everyone from trying :Dwell we have to have something to talk about I guess :)
CT-Yankee
05-15-08, 07:24 PM
For Cashman's sake, hope Santana doesnt throw a beauty tomorrow night! Well hope he doesn't for our sake too but...As bad as the Yanks have been playing, the Mets have been bad too. Someone has to win, right???
Predictions?? 0-0 after 9? 17 innings - 1-0 final on a walk, passed ball, wild pitch and let's throw in a balk to win the game.
Prison Mike
05-15-08, 07:49 PM
For Cashman's sake, hope Santana doesnt throw a beauty tomorrow night! Well hope he doesn't for our sake too but...As bad as the Yanks have been playing, the Mets have been bad too. Someone has to win, right???
Predictions?? 0-0 after 9? 17 innings - 1-0 final on a walk, passed ball, wild pitch and let's throw in a balk to win the game.
He throws with his left hand- he'll throw a gem.
CT-Yankee
05-15-08, 08:15 PM
He throws with his left hand- he'll throw a gem.
Yup! You know he will...The only good thing is the Mets don't hit either so maybe we can outlast them and they bring in Heilman!! ;)
ArodMVP217
05-15-08, 08:16 PM
I don't want to see shelley, idk. i will be alright with mo ensberg
nnysiny
05-15-08, 08:50 PM
For Cashman's sake, hope Santana doesnt throw a beauty tomorrow night! Well hope he doesn't for our sake too but...As bad as the Yanks have been playing, the Mets have been bad too. Someone has to win, right???
Predictions?? 0-0 after 9? 17 innings - 1-0 final on a walk, passed ball, wild pitch and let's throw in a balk to win the game.
with the way things are going, Santana will toss a 27-pitch perfect game in 55 minutes
Yankee Tripper
05-17-08, 03:34 PM
No TV for me, how'd Santana look? I see he gave up 3 more long balls today - 2 to lefties. Maybe last year wasn't a fluke, only the start of a trend. If so then the Met's may find out just how long 7 years can be.
In Mo I Trust
05-17-08, 03:35 PM
Me too, everyone would be flipping out with Johan giving up bombs left and right while throwing 90 MPH.
he was pretty good and the Yanks were their usual suckage.
THEBOSS84
05-17-08, 03:37 PM
he was pretty good and the Yanks were there usual suckage.
He gave up 4ER in 7 2/3 including 3 homers. If if it weren't for Bobby Meachem, Santana's outing may have been horrendous.
CallOfTheCrow
05-17-08, 03:38 PM
Pretty lucky more like it.
He gave up 4ER in 7 2/3 including 3 homers. If if it weren't for Bobby Meachem, Santana's outing may have been horrendous.
And the Yankees were horrendous.
teknetic
05-17-08, 03:40 PM
Had him on the ropes and let him slip. Yankee baseball.
We do not have a very good team. I just wonder what we do from here. I don't see us making the playoffs. So, should we start selling?
In Mo I Trust
05-17-08, 03:42 PM
We do not have a very good team. I just wonder what we do from here. I don't see us making the playoffs. So, should we start selling?
July 31 is a long ways away. If the team is still struggling then, sure, sell sell sell. Fortunately we're only at the 1/4 pole and nobody in the AL is playing particularly well.
nnysiny
05-17-08, 03:46 PM
No TV for me, how'd Santana look? I see he gave up 3 more long balls today - 2 to lefties. Maybe last year wasn't a fluke, only the start of a trend. If so then the Met's may find out just how long 7 years can be.
fastball was consistently 88-91. the HRs to Jeter and Abreu were bombs. his stuff didnt look nasty at all
teknetic
05-17-08, 03:49 PM
fastball was consistently 88-91. the HRs to Jeter and Abreu were bombs. his stuff didnt look nasty at all
That's where he's been most of the year. Stark difference from the '06 Santana who was sitting 93-94. His velocity dipped last year and his HR total spiked from 24 ('06) to 33 (led the league)
Yankee Tripper
05-17-08, 04:45 PM
July 31 is a long ways away. If the team is still struggling then, sure, sell sell sell. Fortunately we're only at the 1/4 pole and nobody in the AL is playing particularly well.What would we sell? Most guys we'd want to move have NTC though they'd probably waive to go to contender.
Still i agree it's way to early to be sellers. Lets see how we look with A-rod & Po in the lineup. But I'm still concerned big time by our rotation.
Yankee Tripper
05-17-08, 04:46 PM
That's where he's been most of the year. Stark difference from the '06 Santana who was sitting 93-94. His velocity dipped last year and his HR total spiked from 24 ('06) to 33 (led the league)
Thanks for the update. So basically he's gone from dominant (arguably the best) to just very good right now.
bomber999
05-17-08, 05:58 PM
I will be the first to admit that I was a very strong proponent of trading for Santana, even if it meant Hughes plus. I think that it is too soon to judge. However, I must admit that I have not been overly impressed by Santana this year. Beckett was not exactly dominant his first year with Boston. However, his move was NL to AL and Santana's was AL to NL. He has been good, but not dominant. I am no longer sure that he would have been worth what it would have taken to get him. I do think that the Yankees should have reopened negotiation with the Twins when they came back to the Yankees, though.
cupcollector99
05-17-08, 07:25 PM
I will be the first to admit that I was a very strong proponent of trading for Santana, even if it meant Hughes plus. I think that it is too soon to judge. However, I must admit that I have not been overly impressed by Santana this year. Beckett was not exactly dominant his first year with Boston. However, his move was NL to AL and Santana's was AL to NL. He has been good, but not dominant. I am no longer sure that he would have been worth what it would have taken to get him. I do think that the Yankees should have reopened negotiation with the Twins when they came back to the Yankees, though.
What's done is done. The Yankees have no leverage come trade time or even free agent time so who knows what'll happen. I'm looking forward to what Cash can pull off but having most people on this forum don't remember a time when the Yankees didn't play October baseball.
just-blaze
05-17-08, 09:24 PM
We do not have a very good team.
I agree but once we insert ARod, Posada, legitimate 4th starter (Insert one of Joba, Hughes, Horne, trade) we will be.
I just wonder what we do from here.
Realize that we are reeling mostly from injuries and that we have over 2/3rds a season to play.
I don't see us making the playoffs.
See the first statement I made.....that team can make the playoffs.
So, should we start selling?
Really? The Yankees are going to be the first team to sell? Really? Step back from the ledge please. At the very least there is plenty of time to make moves and we are 4 1/2 out with over 110+ games to go.
I will say that now is time for Cash to get creative and proactive.....
The Yankees would stink even with Santana.
Casey37
05-18-08, 04:19 PM
Acccording to Brian Cashman, he has no regrets about going after Santana. Is this the best answer he can come up with? What would he say if everyone was healthy and performing like they're supposed to?
"That would be wasted energy," Cashman said. "No, I don't think of that at all."
Given the Yankees' difficulties throughout the season, Cashman pointed out that Santana's presence might not be the answer. "I'm not sure what difference it would make if we're not scoring for him, either," Cashman said of Santana. "Our lack of offense and injuries has more to do with our place in the standings, despite our pitching."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05182008/sports/yankees/cashman__no_regrets_regarding_santana_111376.htm
The Yankees would stink even with Santana.
If you can't score runs....
We've scored an average of 2 whole runs/game over the past week.
Ericas367
05-19-08, 09:10 PM
he would of been a better Yankee...he's mediocre cause he's a met and he probably really wanted to be a Yankee lol
CallOfTheCrow
05-19-08, 09:11 PM
he would been a better Yankee...he's mediocre cause he's a met and he probably really wanted to be a Yankee lol
Yeah I doubt that.
THEBOSS84
05-22-08, 10:20 AM
Olney:
• Heard this from a couple of evaluators: Johan Santana's velocity is down 3-4 miles per hour from a couple of years ago. He is short-arming the ball more than he has in the past -- and this is after some red flags appeared in the physical examination he underwent before signing with the Mets. Sources say his shoulder showed some wear and tear, which is not unusual for a pitcher of Santana's age. This is not to say Santana is not an effective pitcher now, but all of this information makes you wonder how effective he will remain during the course of his multi-year deal.
27IsNext
05-22-08, 11:56 AM
Olney:
Both the Yankees and Santana dodged a bullet. The AL East wouldn't be too kind to him right about now.
Olney: Well as long as Olney is reporting this, I think I can finally divulge what I heard last fall but would only pass along to folks here via e-mail. I won't identify the source, but I got it from someone in a major league organization who told me directly. What he said was that the physical examination of Santana showed degeneration of his pitching elbow, which is not natural and has nothing to do with the shoulder. Considering this, it isn't expected that he will not pitch much beyond 5 years, and will begin to show signs of it sooner than that. He could also be very effective for the next 2 or 3 years, depending upon how much he throws. Apparently, this information is known to all the clubs that were interested. Why it wasn't reported outside is a mystery to me. With what's happened to free agent pitchers that have signed here in the past, I'm really glad we passed.
nnysiny
05-22-08, 08:09 PM
Santana gave up a career high 12 hits today, while only striking out 1. so in his past three outings he tied his career high for hits allowed, then surpassed it. this might be the greatest move Cash never made
27IsNext
05-22-08, 08:28 PM
It's becoming increasingly obvious that Santana moving to the NL was the best thing he could have done.
Prison Mike
05-22-08, 09:27 PM
Santana gave up a career high 12 hits today, while only striking out 1. so in his past three outings he tied his career high for hits allowed, then surpassed it. this might be the greatest move Cash never made
The 1K is stunning. This is not the same Santana who has freakish second halves and carries his team to the playoffs.
The same people who are killing Cash for not trading for Santana would be killing him for trading for him......................
teknetic
05-22-08, 09:50 PM
The same people who are killing Cash for not trading for Santana would be killing him for trading for him......................
Tis how the mind of the armchair GM works.
THEBOSS84
05-23-08, 08:50 AM
Olney with more:
After the item on Johan Santana's diminished velocity was posted here yesterday, some scouts from other teams chimed in, indicating through e-mails and phone calls that they were seeing the same thing. "The Mets were asking around about that in spring training, about what his true [velocity] baseline was," said one talent evaluator. "They were concerned."
Said an AL scout who has seen Santana this month: "His stuff isn't even close to what it was [with the Twins]."
How much has his diminished stuff affected him? We have less than two months of starts to consider from 2008, a very small sample, and keep in mind that except for last season -- when Santana suffered a significant statistical decline in the last six weeks -- he has often done his best work in the second half.
With that said, here are the primary indicators:
• His ratio of strikeouts per nine innings over the last six seasons has been 11.38, 9.61, 10.46, 9.25, 9.44, 9.66. This year: 7.79.
• His strikeout-to-walk ratio over the last six seasons: 2.80, 3.60, 4.91, 5.29, 5.21, 4.52. This year: 3.87.
• Opponents' OPS over the last six seasons: .607, .642, .564, .594, .616, .678. This year: .816.
• His pitches per plate appearance over the last six seasons: 4.08, 3.94, 3.89, 3.66, 3.74, 3.82. This year: 4.25.
As I wrote a lot about during the winter of Santana trade talks, rival talent evaluators saw a noticeable -- not dramatic, but noticeable -- decline in his stuff after his 17-strikeout performance against Texas on Aug. 19. He's made 17 starts since then, and here are his primary numbers:
Innings: 111
Hits: 109
Earned runs: 50
Home runs: 20
Walks: 26
Strikeouts: 102
ERA: 4.05
Look, Santana is still obviously among the better pitchers in the game, and his remarkable ability to change speeds means that he probably is going to age better than a lot of his peers. He is smart, dedicated and seriously competitive, so if there is something to figure out and there are adjustments that can be made, he'll get there.
This question remains: Will he be worth to the Mets what they will pay him over the duration of the contract? We'll see.
But it's probably not a good thing that rival scouts are seeing signs of diminishment less than two months into a seven-year deal.
YankeesAce4Life
05-23-08, 08:52 AM
he would of been a better Yankee...he's mediocre cause he's a met and he probably really wanted to be a Yankee lol
Carlos Beltran part 2. ;)
PhilHughesFan
05-23-08, 09:36 AM
He still has a 3.36 ERA right now and a 1.18 WHIP. He would still be the ace of the staff here if we had him. I was against trading Hughes for him but Hughes has been awful this year so far so I don't know how much celebrating we can really do about not trading for Santana.
THEBOSS84
05-23-08, 09:37 AM
He still has a 3.36 ERA right now and a 1.18 WHIP. He would still be the ace of the staff here if we had him. I was against trading Hughes for him but Hughes has been awful this year so far so I don't know how much celebrating we can really do about not trading for Santana.
The switch from AL to NL is supposed to lower your whip and era.
teknetic
05-23-08, 09:46 AM
He was throwing harder last night than he has in a while (93 into the 6th-7th) mostly 92.
dave8274
05-23-08, 10:51 AM
The switch from AL to NL is supposed to lower your whip and era.
Not only that, but that is THIS year. If he gets a little worse next year and a little worse the year after that, pretty soon the Mets have an average pitcher they still need to pay for 4 years.
THEBOSS84
05-23-08, 10:57 AM
Not only that, but that is THIS year. If he gets a little worse next year and a little worse the year after that, pretty soon the Mets have an average pitcher they still need to pay for 4 years.
Seriously, I don't think there was ever a player that I rooted harder against than Johan.
chris_5103
05-23-08, 11:08 AM
The Twins screwed up when we didn't take that deal from Boston. Lester, Crisp, Lowie, Masterson and Kalish was rumored to be included. Looking at everyones numbers, Boston offered the 3 best players and the most value.
THEBOSS84
05-23-08, 11:09 AM
The Twins screwed up when we didn't take that deal from Boston. Lester, Crisp, Lowie, Masterson and Kalish was rumored to be included. Looking at everyones numbers, Boston offered the 3 best players and the most value.
Dude, we are a quarter into this season. You can in no way judge this trade yet.
marshcat
05-23-08, 11:17 AM
He still has a 3.36 ERA right now and a 1.18 WHIP. He would still be the ace of the staff here if we had him. I was against trading Hughes for him but Hughes has been awful this year so far so I don't know how much celebrating we can really do about not trading for Santana.
The contract bothers me more than the trade. These long term pitcher deals are not good. He's dropped considerably and there is still 6.7 years to go!
OldYankeeFan
05-23-08, 11:21 AM
The Twins screwed up when we didn't take that deal from Boston. Lester, Crisp, Lowie, Masterson and Kalish was rumored to be included. Looking at everyones numbers, Boston offered the 3 best players and the most value.
You would have NEVER made that trade with the RS because it was all just a bluff by them to increase what the Yankees were offering. There is no way the RS would have given Santana the $$ and years he was looking for.
CallOfTheCrow
05-23-08, 11:37 AM
Seriously, I don't think there was ever a player that I rooted harder against than Johan.
Johan's start against the Yankees was one I wasn't looking forward to at all due to possible ramifications if he pitches well.
Only other one I was looking forward to less was Hughes' start at Boston.
nnysiny
05-25-08, 07:03 PM
Ken Rosenthal (per one executive) says that Santana is actually trying to throw harder, so his loss on velocity may be greater than it looks on the gun. this could also mean an shoulder or elbow injury might be sooner than expected.
it starts at 2:28 of this video:
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-us&brand=foxsports&vid=58849d83-e8bb-4456-b3fb-9c8913d9727a&playlist=&editor=&from=FOXSPORTS&fg=/mlb&rf=http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb
ArodMVP217
05-26-08, 01:36 PM
i forgot which one was saying it, but they said Santana was short arming the ball more; causing less slider bite and less velocity. to reduce injury.. i think it was olney
THEBOSS84
02-26-09, 01:29 PM
And the injury phase begins:
Johan Santana was scratched from his planned outing in Friday's exhibition due to some elbow stiffness.
Santana said he experiences tightness in the elbow annually. He thinks it might have happened now because he's been throwing more than usual in an effort to show the Mets that his surgically repaired knee is sound. He'll likely throw a bullpen Sunday and start a game in the middle of next week.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx
PJMPirate
02-26-09, 03:40 PM
Wow, reading this thread again just goes to show how you can't judge a season in May. Look at this - everyone is saying how Santana was washed up and done. Those final numbers look a lot better...
nnysiny
02-26-09, 05:15 PM
And the injury phase begins:
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx
annually?! he throws his slider 1/3 less than he used to
And the injury phase begins:
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx If CC pitches to his AL norms or better, and Phil shows signs that he can be a #3ish type pitcher, will the Cashman bashers eat crow?
Ynkcpt23
02-26-09, 06:59 PM
If CC pitches to his AL norms or better, and Phil shows signs that he can be a #3ish type pitcher, will the Cashman bashers eat crow?
I would love to say yes, but no, they won't. They'll find something else to bitch about.
Stache Fan
02-27-09, 03:14 PM
If CC pitches to his AL norms or better, and Phil shows signs that he can be a #3ish type pitcher, will the Cashman bashers eat crow?
No way. As of this moment, Santana is a legitimate #1 pitcher. Phil Hughes as a #3 is not enough to shut anyone up.
CallOfTheCrow
02-27-09, 03:15 PM
No way. As of this moment, Santana is a legitimate #1 pitcher. Phil Hughes as a #3 is not enough to shut anyone up.
Did you not read his first sentence when he mentioned if Sabathia pitches to his norms AND Hughes at least turns into a 3?
ThePinStripes
02-27-09, 05:00 PM
I'd rather have him than Burnett, which is about what it would have come down to.
djeter220
02-27-09, 05:36 PM
I'd rather have him than Burnett, which is about what it would have come down to.
I'm pretty sure if we'd gotten Santana last year it would be CC not in pinstripes this year, not Burnett.
nnysiny
02-27-09, 07:35 PM
I'd rather have him than Burnett, which is about what it would have come down to.
based on...?
THEBOSS84
02-27-09, 07:38 PM
based on...?
Based on Burnett and Santana's similar contracts..
nnysiny
02-27-09, 07:39 PM
Based on Burnett and Santana's similar contracts..
:lol: very funny
THEBOSS84
02-27-09, 07:40 PM
:lol: very funny
I have no other way to explain that poster's comments.
CallOfTheCrow
02-27-09, 08:13 PM
People act like it's a given too that the Yankees would have went after Sabathia if they acquired Santana last year.
primetime714
02-27-09, 08:41 PM
I'd rather have him than Burnett, which is about what it would have come down to.
As others have mentioned I'm not so sure that would be the case. Even if it were you can make an argument that Burnett, Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky (what we would've had to give up in the Johan trade) > Santana and this years 3rd round pick (what we gave up for Burnett).
However more than likely I think it would be CC that wasn't signed. And if not its very possible the team doesn't have the money to sign a bat like Teixeira and has to settle for less with Tex signing in Boston.
All in all things really worked out for us. Still it was a calculated risk not making that move. If we didn't get CC passing on Santana would've been viewed as a big mistake.
THEBOSS84
02-27-09, 08:51 PM
As others have mentioned I'm not so sure that would be the case. Even if it were you can make an argument that Burnett, Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky (what we would've had to give up in the Johan trade) > Santana and this years 3rd round pick (what we gave up for Burnett).
However more than likely I think it would be CC that wasn't signed. And if not its very possible the team doesn't have the money to sign a bat like Teixeira and has to settle for less with Tex signing in Boston.
All in all things really worked out for us. Still it was a calculated risk not making that move. If we didn't get CC passing on Santana would've been viewed as a big mistake.
I would have viewed it as an enormous mistake.
JeffWeaverFan
02-28-09, 08:56 AM
I'm stubborn, but I still believe the non trade was the right move. Of course it wouldn't look good after year 1, but this can only be judged after the full 7 years. Judging it after the first is extremely foolish.
JeffWeaverFan
02-28-09, 08:58 AM
I'd rather have him than Burnett, which is about what it would have come down to.
It would have been instead of CC or Tex, and my guess is that it would have been instead of CC.
CallOfTheCrow
02-28-09, 09:29 AM
Pete Abe
UPDATE, 9:51 a.m.: Big news from Mets camp. Johan Santana is out “indefinitely” with a sore elbow. That is ominous news.
aeromac76
02-28-09, 09:39 AM
People act like it's a given too that the Yankees would have went after Sabathia if they acquired Santana last year.
And they'd be wrong..
It is my opinion, call me nuts if you like, that one of the main reasons the Yankees did not pull the trigger on Johan was CC's upcoming FA.
They figured both are about the same in quality (I am not going to argue the who is slightly better here, they are both awesome) and thought with CC, it is just $$. Had we gotten Santana, we probably get Burnett and Tex as well. Not CC. It was CC or Johan..
So what you really have to ask is, was the 2008 season, somewhat given to sacrifice worth keeping Hughes and whomever else, and getting CC?
I think it was. I'd rather have CC and Phil and whatever else we would have needed to trade, than to get Johan and lose all that talent.
aeromac76
02-28-09, 09:40 AM
Pete Abe
UPDATE, 9:51 a.m.: Big news from Mets camp. Johan Santana is out “indefinitely” with a sore elbow. That is ominous news.
Oh crap..
I am not saying anything about how long he'll be out, but if it is serious, this could be one of those season killers before a game is played.
Remember Testaverde getting hurt (achilles) in the first game of a season where the Jets were thought to be super bowl favs, and the whole season ended on day one?
If it is a big injury, then indeed, this could be like that.
They cannot afford to lose him.
Oh crap..
I am not saying anything about how long he'll be out, but if it is serious, this could be one of those season killers before a game is played.
Remember Testaverde getting hurt (achilles) in the first game of a season where the Jets were thought to be super bowl favs, and the whole season ended on day one?
If it is a big injury, then indeed, this could be like that.
They cannot afford to lose him.
I wonder if Rocky Cherry will get the opening day start now?
YankeePride1967
02-28-09, 09:42 AM
Great. I have him in my fantasy league. Our keepers are due tomorrow. I am going to have to hope word of how bad it is comes out today.
I was so hoping F-Rod would blow the save for Santana on Opening Day.
CallOfTheCrow
02-28-09, 09:53 AM
Great. I have him in my fantasy league. Our keepers are due tomorrow. I am going to have to hope word of how bad it is comes out today.
I tried trading him yesterday with no bites.
Rocketbooster
02-28-09, 10:04 AM
And they'd be wrong..
It is my opinion, call me nuts if you like, that one of the main reasons the Yankees did not pull the trigger on Johan was CC's upcoming FA.
They figured both are about the same in quality (I am not going to argue the who is slightly better here, they are both awesome) and thought with CC, it is just $$. Had we gotten Santana, we probably get Burnett and Tex as well. Not CC. It was CC or Johan..
So what you really have to ask is, was the 2008 season, somewhat given to sacrifice worth keeping Hughes and whomever else, and getting CC?
I think it was. I'd rather have CC and Phil and whatever else we would have needed to trade, than to get Johan and lose all that talent.
I agree about 2008 and keeping the talent, but I'm not sure if Tex/Burnett would have been in the Yankees' plans if they had Santana. I can't even give a good reason why I feel this way - it's just a gut feeling. It definitely was CC or Johan (not both)- and a huge gamble to take at the time. Fortunately, it worked out.
I agree about 2008 and keeping the talent, but I'm not sure if Tex/Burnett would have been in the Yankees' plans if they had Santana. I can't even give a good reason why I feel this way - it's just a gut feeling. It definitely was CC or Johan (not both)- and a huge gamble to take at the time. Fortunately, it worked out.Let's see how CC holds up first, before we pat ourselves on the back.
the_coach
02-28-09, 12:01 PM
Let's see how CC holds up first, before we pat ourselves on the back.
Yep...I'm very concerned about the way the Brewer's abused him last year...knowing they had no chance to re-sign him.
Rocketbooster
02-28-09, 12:12 PM
Let's see how CC holds up first, before we pat ourselves on the back.
You can worry if you want to, I'm not.
teknetic
02-28-09, 12:17 PM
Yep...I'm very concerned about the way the Brewer's abused him last year...knowing they had no chance to re-sign him.
Judging by the way he handled it, I'm guessing it didn't faze him.
JeffWeaverFan
02-28-09, 03:40 PM
And they'd be wrong..
It is my opinion, call me nuts if you like, that one of the main reasons the Yankees did not pull the trigger on Johan was CC's upcoming FA.
They figured both are about the same in quality (I am not going to argue the who is slightly better here, they are both awesome) and thought with CC, it is just $$. Had we gotten Santana, we probably get Burnett and Tex as well. Not CC. It was CC or Johan..
Not just your opinion but I'm pretty sure that is fact. Cashman himself has stated things along those lines, and reportedly told CC specifically that.
JeffWeaverFan
02-28-09, 03:41 PM
Yep...I'm very concerned about the way the Brewer's abused him last year...knowing they had no chance to re-sign him.
To be fair, they did give a legitimate attempt to sign him.
Yankeeah
02-28-09, 06:38 PM
Fortunately, it worked out.
How has it worked out? Johan had a great year last year and outside of doing a great job on PFP drills, CC hasn't done squat yet for this team.
We'll have to wait until like 2014 to decide if skipping Johan for CC was a good move.
THEBOSS84
02-28-09, 06:57 PM
How has it worked out? Johan had a great year last year and outside of doing a great job on PFP drills, CC hasn't done squat yet for this team.
We'll have to wait until like 2014 to decide if skipping Johan for CC was a good move.
Will that time-frame move up if Johan needs TJ now?
Yankeeah
02-28-09, 07:13 PM
Will that time-frame move up if Johan needs TJ now?
TJ talk might be premature. But who's to say CC won't need it next season?
nnysiny
02-28-09, 07:22 PM
TJ talk might be premature. But who's to say CC won't need it next season?
maybe because he doesnt have annual elbow pain like Santana :dunno:
Yankeeah
02-28-09, 07:25 PM
maybe because he doesnt have annual elbow pain like Santana :dunno:
So he's incapable of injury?
It's impossible to conclude right now that it worked out for the Yankees not trading for Santana and getting CC instead. Personally, I think it will probably be the better long term move. However, you cannot possibly conclude that now.
nnysiny
02-28-09, 07:29 PM
So he's incapable of injury?
It's impossible to conclude right now that it worked out for the Yankees not trading for Santana and getting CC instead. Personally, I think it will probably be the better long term move. However, you cannot possibly conclude that now.
i never said that there was a definite conclusion, but we certainly wont have to wait until 2014. more like 2010
Yankeeah
02-28-09, 07:54 PM
but we certainly wont have to wait until 2014. more like 2010
How will you be able to determine that it was the better move, one year into CC's deal, and two years into Santana's?
Let's say CC has a great year and Santana has surgery this year. That looks pretty one sided after one season. But that doesn't account for 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. Maybe Johan wins to CY awards and two rings while Sabathia has an injury plagued 2010-2015. Not to mention factoring in Hughes and/or Kennedy who, at least, we would have lost in the trade for Johan.
Rocketbooster
02-28-09, 08:58 PM
How has it worked out? Johan had a great year last year and outside of doing a great job on PFP drills, CC hasn't done squat yet for this team.
We'll have to wait until like 2014 to decide if skipping Johan for CC was a good move.
What I said was that the gamble to pass on Santana so they could make an all-out attempt at CC worked out........and it did. They got CC, so I don't have to wait until 2014 to make that judgment.
Congrats to Johan for pitching great, but since the Mets failed to even make the playoffs, how did it work out for them last year? It's not Johan's fault, obviously, but one of the major reasons I did not want to do the deal was the fact that one player does not guarantee anything in sports, especially in baseball. I was not willing to trade half the farm system AND pay $$$$$$ to boot for a pitcher (but I would feel this way no matter who the player was) who could not literally guarantee the Yankees a title. Until the Mets win a WS with Johan, can we say it worked out for them?
nnysiny
03-01-09, 10:15 AM
oh noes...
Santana To NY For Exam
By Alex Walsh [March 1 at 10:03am CST]
10:01am: Marty Noble of MLB.com confirms that the exam of Johan Santana's elbow will take place, but says that Minaya did not specify that an MRI would be part of the procedure.
Noble also puts the potential injury into perspective: "Though the tightness is not considered serious, it has delayed Santana's conditioning and made it unlikely he will be the Mets' Opening day starter April 6."
9:42am: We don't always report every injury here at MLBTR, but sometimes the news is so big that it can't really be ignored.
According to David Lennon of Newsday.com, Johan Santana is expected to be sent to New York for some precautionary tests, including an MRI, and an examination by team physician David Altchek.
Lennon quotes Mets GM Omar Minaya himself as referring to these tests as "precautionary." But this is certainly something to keep an eye on.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/03/santana-expecte.html
How has it worked out? Johan had a great year last year and outside of doing a great job on PFP drills, CC hasn't done squat yet for this team.
We'll have to wait until like 2014 to decide if skipping Johan for CC was a good move.Yeah, just like when everyone said the non-trade was a failure last year, it's too early to say. Could Johan have gotten the '08 squad to the playoffs? Probably. But CC/Phil/Ian/etc could help the Yankees for years to come. Or, Phil could be a bust, CC could fight injuries and Johan could be Johan. It's too early to tell.
If you ask me the question, do I think Cashman made the right move the answer is yes. Where the chips fall after that remains to be seen.
Rocketbooster
03-01-09, 12:03 PM
Yeah, just like when everyone said the non-trade was a failure last year, it's too early to say. Could Johan have gotten the '08 squad to the playoffs? Probably. But CC/Phil/Ian/etc could help the Yankees for years to come. Or, Phil could be a bust, CC could fight injuries and Johan could be Johan. It's too early to tell.
If you ask me the question, do I think Cashman made the right move the answer is yes. Where the chips fall after that remains to be seen.
I don't think Johan could or would have gotten last years team to the playoffs - he couldn't even lead the Mets to the the playoffs. It wasn't his fault last year and I'm sure it would not have been his fault if he had pitched for the Yanks in2008 - that team was flawed and had devastating injuries, not a good combo. Johan would have been on the receiving end of a bunch of 2-0, 3-1 scores.
Ynkcpt23
03-01-09, 12:17 PM
I don't think Johan could or would have gotten last years team to the playoffs - he couldn't even lead the Mets to the the playoffs. It wasn't his fault last year and I'm sure it would not have been his fault if he had pitched for the Yanks in2008 - that team was flawed and had devastating injuries, not a good combo. Johan would have been on the receiving end of a bunch of 2-0, 3-1 scores.
Heading into this season, I am glad we didn't obtain Santana last year. Whether he could have gotten us to the playoffs is irrelevant, IMO, because it would have been another one-and-done. With last year's team, no Posada, Matsui etc. there is no way that team could have made a title run with or without him.
Rocketbooster
03-01-09, 01:48 PM
Heading into this season, I am glad we didn't obtain Santana last year. Whether he could have gotten us to the playoffs is irrelevant, IMO, because it would have been another one-and-done. With last year's team, no Posada, Matsui etc. there is no way that team could have made a title run with or without him.
Exactly.......
JeffWeaverFan
03-01-09, 02:45 PM
i never said that there was a definite conclusion, but we certainly wont have to wait until 2014. more like 2010
No, in order to properly judge if this was the right decision, 2014 is about right. By then we will know what Hughes has done during his pre-free agency years, we will know what Santana has done during his contract, and we will know what Sabathia has done during his contract. To make a judgment any earlier is simply just guessing.
27IsNext
03-01-09, 07:57 PM
Well as long as Olney is reporting this, I think I can finally divulge what I heard last fall but would only pass along to folks here via e-mail. I won't identify the source, but I got it from someone in a major league organization who told me directly. What he said was that the physical examination of Santana showed degeneration of his pitching elbow, which is not natural and has nothing to do with the shoulder. Considering this, it isn't expected that he will not pitch much beyond 5 years, and will begin to show signs of it sooner than that. He could also be very effective for the next 2 or 3 years, depending upon how much he throws. Apparently, this information is known to all the clubs that were interested. Why it wasn't reported outside is a mystery to me. With what's happened to free agent pitchers that have signed here in the past, I'm really glad we passed.
Bumped from page three of this thread.
I don't think Johan could or would have gotten last years team to the playoffs - he couldn't even lead the Mets to the the playoffs. It wasn't his fault last year and I'm sure it would not have been his fault if he had pitched for the Yanks in2008 - that team was flawed and had devastating injuries, not a good combo. Johan would have been on the receiving end of a bunch of 2-0, 3-1 scores.I know it's not central to the discussion because I think you and I land on the same side of the Santana debate, but Santana pitching down the stretch in place of a Rasner or a Ponson or another subpar pitcher would have been huge for this team. Also, if the trade is made Hughes and possibly Kennedy don't get their 14 starts that produced zero wins in April and May. If the Yanks had been close and Santana was showing true #1 stuff, perhaps they make a deal for another solid starting pitcher or big bat to get over the hump.
Again, I was in favor of not making the deal last offseason and with CC in tow I'm even more pleased. But I do think that if they'd landed Santana last year we'd have made the playoffs - for what that's worth.
Rocketbooster
03-02-09, 07:28 AM
I know it's not central to the discussion because I think you and I land on the same side of the Santana debate, but Santana pitching down the stretch in place of a Rasner or a Ponson or another subpar pitcher would have been huge for this team. Also, if the trade is made Hughes and possibly Kennedy don't get their 14 starts that produced zero wins in April and May. If the Yanks had been close and Santana was showing true #1 stuff, perhaps they make a deal for another solid starting pitcher or big bat to get over the hump.
Again, I was in favor of not making the deal last offseason and with CC in tow I'm even more pleased. But I do think that if they'd landed Santana last year we'd have made the playoffs - for what that's worth.
You may be right - the Yankees offense was putrid last year, though, and they rather sleepwalked through the season. They may have made the post-season (again, no guarantee), but they would have been one and done as someone else said.
In any case, Santana had a throwing session yesterday and appears to be fine.....
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