Suspension for Farnsworth?? [Archive] - Page 2

Ynkcpt23

04-22-08, 10:32 AM

Given that someone has to be held accountable for determining intent, I can't think of a better person than the umpire. He's not just calling balls and strikes but interacting with the players on a level that no one else is privy to. If the umpire does not detect intent, I find it very difficult to believe that Bob Watson can by watching video. And I don't think Girardi has not been in a managerial postition long enough for anyone to proclaim he shows a penchant for anything much less pushing the line (and I'm including FL). If Watson is taking that into account, then it makes him that much more foolish in my eyes.

I like your argument, but intent is largely dependent upon point of view and point of view is extremely subjective. Therefore on the field as in many other areas, intent is impossible to prove and difficult to account for. The ump may catch whispers that we're not privy to, as you said, but it's still hard to believe that he can glean enough information to do anything other than use his best judgment. Which, umpire to umpire will change based upon which one is calling the game.

I am in complete agreement re: Watson. If the ump has a difficult time, how can he and his cronies make any reasonable determination based upon videotape of the game??? Ridiculous.

yanksphan

04-22-08, 10:32 AM

I'm not saying that its the case but if an ump makes a mistake and doesn't toss a player then they should be immune from punishment?

BTW your argument that this is going to lead to balls and strikes being changed days later is ridiculous. Apples to oranges. This is a suspension and a fine, nothing thats changing the outcome to games.

The absurdity of my analogy was intentional.

b-ball-lunachick

04-22-08, 10:35 AM

Who, besides the pitcher or maybe the catcher and manager, really knows intent? Watson is there to look at all of the facts and circumstances. If it was Youkilis who was thrown at (who hadn't lit up the Yankees for multiple HRs), we all know there wouldn't be a 3-game suspension. If Torre were the manager and not Giardi, the suspension may have been less. Giardi has shown a penchant for pushing the line and Watson may have taken that into account as well.

Through the years, the Red Sox have been pretty upset with Watson. As for Pedro, Clemens, and others, MLB and all major league sports seem to have different rules for superstars. It's not right. It's the way it is.
Yeah, they only suspended Joba for two games for not hitting Youkilis...another joke of a decision...

also, if they're taking Girardi's "history" where he's been a manager for a year and a month, that's ridiculous...and if you remember Torre was the one that went off after Joba's suspension...and for good reason..

a ball came at Damon's head vs Baltimore on Sunday..don't even remember what pitcher but Damon hit the ground which he should have done to avoid the hit, didn't even just duck like Youkilis had to..nothing mentioned and I can guarantee there will be no suspension...nor should there be...but there shouldn't have been one on Joba or Farnsworth either..

as for the Red Sox being upset with "Yankee Bob" as they like to call him, I don't get it except in the case of the Francona/uniform debate..why else would they be upset?

TheoShmeo

04-22-08, 10:38 AM

Except that Aardsma's pitch was just as close to Arod's head as Farnsworth's was to Manny's. Recklessly close then.
Agree to disagree.

Aardsma's pitch was in the numbers and was consistent with many such purpose pitches over the years. Farnsworth's was at head level and that's much less common. That the former actually hit the target and the latter was behind Manny's head (and would have made contact with same if Manny had backed up) doesn't mean that they were in the same vicinity.

But putting aside these two incidents, I repeat that I'm OK with Watson -- who I also have a very dim view of -- treating balls that go near or at heads more stringently than balls that go near or at bodies.

effdamets

04-22-08, 10:44 AM

Agree to disagree.

Aardsma's pitch was in the numbers and was consistent with many such purpose pitches over the years. Farnsworth's was at head level and that's much less common. That the former actually hit the target and the latter was behind Manny's head (and would have made contact with same if Manny had backed up) doesn't mean that they were in the same vicinity.

But putting aside these two incidents, I repeat that I'm OK with Watson -- who I also have a very dim view of -- treating balls that go near or at heads more stringently than balls that go near or at bodies.
For the record, Aardsma's pitch hit Alex between the top of the 1 and 3, right in between, which is about a neck's length away from the head.

TheoShmeo

04-22-08, 11:00 AM

For the record, Aardsma's pitch hit Alex between the top of the 1 and 3, right in between, which is about a neck's length away from the head.
When I wrote that Aardsma's pitch was in the numbers, I understood exactly what you wrote.

Put it this way: Are you really saying that if Derek Jeter hit two homers against the Blue Jays, you would react the exact same way to a ball in that same game hitting squarely on his number in the middle of his upper back and a ball in that same game being thrown at head level, directly behind him?

I think there's a difference there.

That said, I don't think this is a huge deal. Manny wasn't fussed with it. I don't care if Farnsworth is suspended or not. I just think there's a reasonable basis for looking at those two balls differently.

President Kennedy

04-22-08, 11:01 AM

I repeat that I'm OK with Watson -- who I also have a very dim view of -- treating balls that go near or at heads more stringently than balls that go near or at bodies.

You need to hit the batter in order to guarantee their safety, like Boston does.

Exactly.

sabermet prospectus

04-22-08, 11:05 AM

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:06 AM

When I wrote that Aardsma's pitch was in the numbers, I understood exactly what you wrote.

Put it this way: Are you really saying that if Derek Jeter hit two homers against the Blue Jays, you would react the exact same way to a ball in that same game hitting squarely on his number in the middle of his upper back and a ball in that same game being thrown at head level, directly behind him?

I think there's a difference there.

That said, I don't think this is a huge deal. Manny wasn't fussed with it. I don't care if Farnsworth is suspended or not. I just think there's a reasonable basis for looking at those two balls differently.
I think that the ball that missed Manny was the same height as the ball that struck Alex. That was my point.

All the rest to me is hogwash.
I like the old school method of having the game police itself and not having to worry about Captain Disgruntled Enforcer in the front office - looking for attention.

sabermet prospectus

04-22-08, 11:07 AM

When I wrote that Aardsma's pitch was in the numbers, I understood exactly what you wrote.

Put it this way: Are you really saying that if Derek Jeter hit two homers against the Blue Jays, you would react the exact same way to a ball in that same game hitting squarely on his number in the middle of his upper back and a ball in that same game being thrown at head level, directly behind him?

I think there's a difference there.

That said, I don't think this is a huge deal. Manny wasn't fussed with it. I don't care if Farnsworth is suspended or not. I just think there's a reasonable basis for looking at those two balls differently.
i would. the red sox epitomize pushing around the yanks the past couple of years but it isnt only them. the whole al has been pushing us around so yes i would be mad. i get mad any time one of our guys is hit because until this year we havent done anything in return. thank god we removed the female organ that was saint joe and grew a set with girardi.

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:08 AM

pedro martinez HIT karim garcia in the back of the head and then proceeded to throw don zimmer to the ground and didnt even get ejected from the game let alone a suspension. did we ever figure out why there wasnt any punsihment at all given to pedro for that incident ??
This just in.... Pedro didn't get punished because officials were much too worried about Jeff Nelson in the Red Sox bull pen....

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:09 AM

i would. the red sox epitomize pushing around the yanks the past couple of years but it isnt only them. the whole al has been pushing us around so yes i would be mad. i get mad any time one of our guys is hit because until this year we havent done anything in return. thank god we removed the female organ that was saint joe and grew a set with girardi.
Be careful.....

sabermet prospectus

04-22-08, 11:09 AM

This just in.... Pedro didn't get punished because officials were much too worried about Jeff Nelson in the Red Sox bull pen....
seriously though its like this never gets brought up. pedro martinez got away scott free with hitting a guy in the back of his head, inciting a huge brawl, and throwing zimmer to the ground.

sabermet prospectus

04-22-08, 11:10 AM

Careful..... well thats why i worded it the way i did. its just innuendo.

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:11 AM

seriously though its like this never gets brought up. pedro martinez got away scott free with hitting a guy in the back of his head, inciting a huge brawl, and throwing zimmer to the ground.
I do not disagree.

Now - everytime a ball is inside to a Yankee batter, I will be writing a letter to the commissioner's office, demanding a suspension for the pitcher that threw it....

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:13 AM

well thats why i worded it the way i did. its just innuendo.
No - I meant be careful what you wish for.
Having "a set" could be detrimental in this exact subject.
If league officials know that JG "has a set" they'll begin to believe that every HBP by the Yankees' pitcher will be on purpose in retaliation..

sabermet prospectus

04-22-08, 11:15 AM

No - I meant be careful what you wish for.
Having "a set" could be detrimental in this exact subject.
If league officials know that JG "has a set" they'll begin to believe that every HBP by the Yankees' pitcher will be on purpose in retaliation..
ah i see. you never can tell cause around here theyre all about the cs.
obviously you cant be throwing at everybody all the time but then again you cant be like torre. girardi will hopefully have the right balance.

iWant27

04-22-08, 11:19 AM

RIYankee23

04-22-08, 11:20 AM

4bronxbombers

04-22-08, 11:21 AM

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:22 AM

I think it'd be nice if MLB and umpires would interfere as little as possible when it comes to hitting the batter .
There shouldnt be any warnings .
Let players sort them out by themselves . If there is blood , there is blood .
Here is what I disagree with....
Red Sox pitcher nails Jeter/A-Rod/Cano/Matsui/Posada (take your pick).
Then the umpire gives both benches a warning.
Now the Yankee pitchers can't come within 6 feet of Ortiz, even though the only way to get him out is to throw pitches in on his hands.
Why not give the offending team the warning, and only the offending team?

President Kennedy

04-22-08, 11:25 AM

Here is what I disagree with....
Red Sox pitcher nails Jeter/A-Rod/Cano/Matsui/Posada (take your pick).
Then the umpire gives both benches a warning.
Now the Yankee pitchers can't come within 6 feet of Ortiz, even though the only way to get him out is to throw pitches in on his hands.
Why not give the offending team the warning, and only the offending team?

I agree with this. Umpire warnings are awful in how they're handed out. Why in the world should the team that struck first essentially be given a free pass the rest of the game?

4bronxbombers

04-22-08, 11:30 AM

Here is what I disagree with....
Red Sox pitcher nails Jeter/A-Rod/Cano/Matsui/Posada (take your pick).
Then the umpire gives both benches a warning.
Now the Yankee pitchers can't come within 6 feet of Ortiz, even though the only way to get him out is to throw pitches in on his hands.
Why not give the offending team the warning, and only the offending team?

Is there an Umpires Handbook and lots of training involved and re-training? If not, it's always going to be up to the individual as to how they feel they should "punish" players. And if whoever doesn't ever correct the behavior of the ump, they'll keep getting away with sh*t like this.

Ynkcpt23

04-22-08, 11:30 AM

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:33 AM

I agree with this. Umpire warnings are awful in how they're handed out. Why in the world should the team that struck first essentially be given a free pass the rest of the game?
It allows their hitters to "dig in" knowing that they aren't getting anything inside.
Total bs.

JavyVazquezIsSick

04-22-08, 11:33 AM

I can't wait until the day there will no longer be a need for umpires because 95% of them are complete dogshi* at what they do.

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:36 AM

I can't wait until the day there will no longer be a need for umpires because 95% of them are complete dogshi* at what they do.
I'll disagree with that statement.
I always want the umpires to be human beings and at all 4 bases of a ML field.
And you'd be surprised on just how accurate most of them are.
(exceptions not withstanding)

JavyVazquezIsSick

04-22-08, 11:43 AM

I'll disagree with that statement.
I always want the umpires to be human beings and at all 4 bases of a ML field.
And you'd be surprised on just how accurate most of them are.
(exceptions not withstanding)

I couldn't disagree with you more that I'd "be surprised on just how accurate most of them are." The majority of them are horrible, and it has consistently gotten worse every year.

TheoShmeo

04-22-08, 11:45 AM

I think that the ball that missed Manny was the same height as the ball that struck Alex. That was my point.

All the rest to me is hogwash.
I like the old school method of having the game police itself and not having to worry about Captain Disgruntled Enforcer in the front office - looking for attention.
Take a look again. Farnsworth's ball was higher.

If it was at the same level, I'd agree with you.

And I agree that it sucks that a player is hit or almost hit, both teams get warned. My first thought after Farnsworth almost hit Manny was that Sox pitchers can't come inside as much, and that makes them less effective. That's particularly troubling when your team has the lead and cares mostly about run prevention.

Casey at the Bat

04-22-08, 11:46 AM

Same old same old.....

The Yankees do something and everyone jumps on them for it.

Yet when the Yankees get hit; no big deal.

Manny had it coming to him. How many times can you get away with staring down pitchers after hitting a HR???? Try showing some respect for the game for once.

Manny has no problem with the pitch. He's old skool. :)

As for Pedro, he should have been suspended more than he was... especially when he hit Karim Garcia (Who is Karim Garcia?), but not for the Zimmer incident. Zimmer should have been suspended for running across the field and charging a player.

I wonder if guys like Pedro and Roger are to blame for the quick trigger in suspensions these days. Maybe Yankee Bob is trying to make sure that there are no more Rogers and Pedros who will throw at someone intentionally just for being a good hitter, or for looking at them the wrong way, or for retaliation for a HBP.

effdamets

04-22-08, 11:54 AM

Take a look again. Farnsworth's ball was higher.

If it was at the same level, I'd agree with you.

And I agree that it sucks that a player is hit or almost hit, both teams get warned. My first thought after Farnsworth almost hit Manny was that Sox pitchers can't come inside as much, and that makes them less effective. That's particularly troubling when your team has the lead and cares mostly about run prevention.
To me, it only looked higher because Manny squatted down, out of the way.

sabermet prospectus

04-22-08, 12:27 PM

What an ignorant statement to make about women.
good point

themgmt

04-22-08, 12:40 PM

Ortiz doesn't get hit much because he stands far away from the plate

Are you kidding me? What games have you been watching? Ortiz's arms hang all over the plate, and he's anything but far away from it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/David-ortiz-batters-box.JPG/800px-David-ortiz-batters-box.JPG
He's toeing the inner batter's box line. Him and Posada are the two batters that probably stand closest to the plate.

msw6880

04-22-08, 12:40 PM

To me, it only looked higher because Manny squatted down, out of the way.

This is the best picture I could get out of mlb's restrictive videos.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2434615460_4b218075a5.jpg?v=0

Doesn't look to me like Manny is squatting down, out of the way, to a very large degree.

effdamets

04-22-08, 12:46 PM

This is the best picture I could get out of mlb's restrictive videos.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2434615460_4b218075a5.jpg?v=0

Doesn't look to me like Manny is squatting down, out of the way, to a very large degree.
His knees look bent to me....
But whatever.
He didn't get hit and Farnsworth is getting suspended for intent. All BS.

Constantino24

04-22-08, 01:20 PM

Ortiz does stand pretty close to the plate.

Since he wears that armor on his elbow...and the extra fluffy Yetti suit...you'd think he wouldn't be afraid to dive over the plate a little and be hit more..

I think this is one of the reasons why the Yankees should throw extremely inside to him. He puts his elbow out over the plate just like Barry Bonds and forces pitchers to throw the ball where he wants them too, low and inside if inside at all. I think that the arm protection such as that shout be banned from the league because it gives the hitters too much of an advantage. I think they should allow something like what A-Rod or Ichiro wear, a small little peice of protection not armor that is bullet proof.

cupcollector99

04-22-08, 02:01 PM

Are you kidding me? What games have you been watching? Ortiz's arms hang all over the plate, and he's anything but far away from it.

He's toeing the inner batter's box line. Him and Posada are the two batters that probably stand closest to the plate.

I don't think there is any plate that is more than an arm's lenght away from Ortiz.

effdamets

04-22-08, 02:02 PM

I don't think there is any plate that is more than an arm's lenght away from Ortiz.
:lol:

SoCal Pinstriper

04-22-08, 02:05 PM

ah i see. you never can tell cause around here theyre all about the cs.
... and phrasing that the way you did was not good at all.

themgmt

04-22-08, 05:07 PM

I don't think there is any plate that is more than an arm's lenght away from Ortiz.

Zing.

Meecham4ever

04-22-08, 05:54 PM

I think it'd be nice if MLB and umpires would interfere as little as possible when it comes to hitting the batter .
There shouldnt be any warnings .
Let players sort them out by themselves . If there is blood , there is blood .

How about death? I mean, it's happened before, it's not impossible....wasn't a Yankee batter killed back in 1919 or 1920...Farnsworth should NOT have been suspended, but let's not be cavalier about a "beanball war"

RIYankee23

04-22-08, 11:57 PM

How about death? I mean, it's happened before, it's not impossible....wasn't a Yankee batter killed back in 1919 or 1920...Farnsworth should NOT have been suspended, but let's not be cavalier about a "beanball war"

Sabermet's point stands: just how did Pedro get away with hitting Garcia in the back of the head and throwing Zimmer to the ground and NOT get suspended??

How many Yankee pitchers have been suspended in the last few years for throwing near guys (Proctor, Joba, and Farns ring a bell)?

The hypocrisy is amazing.