View Full Version : AROD throws Boras under the bus, officially
A-Rod is not an entertainer ... at best, A-Rod is a pitch-man capable of getting endorsement deals, just like any other athlete. But the idea of anyone paying money to be "entertained" by A-Rod off a baseball diamond is crazy. Michael Jordan had a level of popularity Alex will never sniff. Don't hold your breath waiting for the "Bugs Bunny meets A-Rod" movie, because it ain't happening ... and if this new agent tries to make it happen, A-Rod is in for some real disappointment.
Even if he was Michael Jordan -- and he is NOT -- Jordan never made announcements about his intentions to "build his brand" etc. About the most you could say is that Jordan, like Cal Ripken and A-Rod himself, expressed interest in owning part of a team someday. Which is fine.
As for any other ambitions a public person has, the public frankly does not respond favorably to hearing them discussed in public. Voters don't like politicians who strike them as being more concerned with their personal ambition to hold high office than what they are going to do for the country. Moviegoers (in some but not all cases) react badly when movie stars use their pubilicity to push political or social agendas. Paul Newman can put his name and face all over your supermarket shelves, but he's sure to let you know the money is going to charity or who knows, maybe you'll be turned off by the products.
And when an athlete talks in public about his "brand," yes I think that is a very odd thing to do, and none of us should be surprised that people take exception to A-Rod's conscious, overt positioning of himself as "A-Rod Inc." It's unseemly. A lot of fans just want him to keep all that to himself and worry about living up to that huge contract he signed with his performance on the field.
I am sorry, but this just strikes me as naive. Every professional athlete is an entertainer. ARod is a half a billion dollar brand on the field, and has the potential to generate untold millions off the field. Hiring someone to generate and pursue those opportunities is a no-brainer.
Alex has been here for 4 tumultuous years. He has had no chance to really gain any traction as a NY brand name.
But now that his future as a Yankee is secure for the next decade, he is very well positioned to transform his persona from a household name in sports to a household name, period.
He is in a very unique situation. The biggest name in sports on the most visible team in baseball in the largest media market in the world. And he will be breaking the most hallowed records in sports during that stretch, too. You may not think he is at Jordanian levels yet, but he has 10 years -- and more resources than MJ ever had -- to develop into that.
edit: After thinking about this about more, I couldn't disagree more with your statement that Jordan never expressed a desire to brand himself. Hell, Nike has an executive whose title is President, Jordan Brand. And what about Tiger Woods? He makes more from the Tiger Woods brand than he does from the sport he plays. So is he an athlete, or a marketer?
sweet_lou_14
12-19-07, 01:36 PM
I am sorry, but this just strikes me as naive. Every professional athlete is an entertainer.
I understand what you are saying, but what I'm saying is this: right now, A-Rod is an "entertainer" only to the degree that other athletes are. His name and likeness and autograph can sell merchandise, and his endorsements can earn him and his clients money. Oh, and he wrote a kids book.
Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, and others have made movies that people paid money to see them in. This is a level of "entertainer" that A-Rod has not attempted. My prediction: he would be a miserable failure if he tried, because most people don't like him anywhere near as much as they liked those guys.
ARod is a half a billion dollar brand on the field, and has the potential to generate untold millions off the field. Hiring someone to generate and pursue those opportunities is a no-brainer.
Agreed. I just find it obnoxious when an individual speaks publicly about his "brand." We all know it exists and has value. But it is, IMHO, unseemly to discuss it like that. As I pointed out, if we aren't surprised when a politician overly conscious about perceptions and poll numbers is devoured by the media and public, we should not be surprised that A-Rod is attacked for this part of his personality.
Alex has been here for 4 tumultuous years. He has had no chance to really gain any traction as a NY brand name.
But now that his future as a Yankee is secure for the next decade, he is very well positioned to transform his persona from a household name in sports to a household name, period.
Again, agreed. But again, my problem is that the machinery by which he intends to achieve this is being aired in public. Consider this analogy. If the kind of information you might find in advertising trade magazines -- in which the ad agencies and their clients discuss, for an "insider" audience of business and marketing professionals, their brand strategy, target demographics, etc. -- were aired on the public airwaves, do you think that would increase or decrease a typical consumer's loyalty to the brands whose media manipulations were being exposed in this manner?
That is how I see what A-Rod is doing, and why I called him insecure. My perception is that he is very concerned about impressing big-shot insiders in the business, media, and entertainment industries, and choosing the wrong forum in which to achieve that goal. The guy in the stands doesn't want to hear this stuff ... it can't possibly make him like A-Rod more, it can only make him feel more separate, and more cynical.
He is in a very unique situation. The biggest name in sports on the most visible team in baseball in the largest media market in the world. And he will be breaking the most hallowed records in sports during that stretch, too. You may not think he is at Jordanian levels yet, but he has 10 years -- and more resources than MJ ever had -- to develop into that.
What he lacks, that Jordan does have, is that ability to just make people like you when you step in front of a camera. I never followed Jordan's career closely and even I know the guy has skeletons in his closet. But he has a public persona that people are drawn to. A-Rod ... not so much. And for the record, I like the guy, at least on the field. I'm just predicting that, on the basis of his personality alone, he is not likely to win over the general public to the point where he becomes the cultural icon that Jordan was.
I understand what you are saying, but what I'm saying is this: right now, A-Rod is an "entertainer" only to the degree that other athletes are. His name and likeness and autograph can sell merchandise, and his endorsements can earn him and his clients money. Oh, and he wrote a kids book.
Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, and others have made movies that people paid money to see them in. This is a level of "entertainer" that A-Rod has not attempted. My prediction: he would be a miserable failure if he tried, because most people don't like him anywhere near as much as they liked those guys.
Agreed. I just find it obnoxious when an individual speaks publicly about his "brand." We all know it exists and has value. But it is, IMHO, unseemly to discuss it like that. As I pointed out, if we aren't surprised when a politician overly conscious about perceptions and poll numbers is devoured by the media and public, we should not be surprised that A-Rod is attacked for this part of his personality.
Again, agreed. But again, my problem is that the machinery by which he intends to achieve this is being aired in public. Consider this analogy. If the kind of information you might find in advertising trade magazines -- in which the ad agencies and their clients discuss, for an "insider" audience of business and marketing professionals, their brand strategy, target demographics, etc. -- were aired on the public airwaves, do you think that would increase or decrease a typical consumer's loyalty to the brands whose media manipulations were being exposed in this manner?
That is how I see what A-Rod is doing, and why I called him insecure. My perception is that he is very concerned about impressing big-shot insiders in the business, media, and entertainment industries, and choosing the wrong forum in which to achieve that goal. The guy in the stands doesn't want to hear this stuff ... it can't possibly make him like A-Rod more, it can only make him feel more separate, and more cynical.
What he lacks, that Jordan does have, is that ability to just make people like you when you step in front of a camera. I never followed Jordan's career closely and even I know the guy has skeletons in his closet. But he has a public persona that people are drawn to. A-Rod ... not so much. And for the record, I like the guy, at least on the field. I'm just predicting that, on the basis of his personality alone, he is not likely to win over the general public to the point where he becomes the cultural icon that Jordan was.
Please supply a link to Arod talking about expanding his brand. Everything I can recall has his new agent using those words- big difference
That is agent speak. If it was Arod using those words, you might have a point. If it was his agent- he was just doing his job looking for new opportunities for Arod to make money
Mantle'sMutt
12-19-07, 02:48 PM
Like it or not, when an agent speaks, he's speaking both OF and FOR you. Right or wrong, it is general public perception that an agent says what the agented person wants to be reflected. You'd think A-Rod would have learned in this regard. If the current agent is speaking agent-speak and this is NOT how A-Rod intends to be viewed, he's made yet another poor choice in representation.
Like it or not, when an agent speaks, he's speaking both OF and FOR you. Right or wrong, it is general public perception that an agent says what the agented person wants to be reflected. You'd think A-Rod would have learned in this regard. If the current agent is speaking agent-speak and this is NOT how A-Rod intends to be viewed, he's made yet another poor choice in representation.
This is unbelieveable. His new rep says his job is to grow the ARod brand, and somehow this is offensive to people?
Baseball is a business. Ballplayers are entertainers and businessmen. They do their jobs for the same reasons we do ours -- to make money. I think the time has long passed for fans to romanticize about what they wish being a ballplayer entails.
Like it or not, ARod is a brand name. And handled professionally, there is a tremendous amount of potential equity in that brand name. It might make us all feel better to try to ignore that the business of baseball is the business of entertainment and marketing, and that each player is a brand unto himself to an extent. But that won't make it go away.
People are acting like his new rep said he is there to identify which babies ARod will have for dinner each night. But he didn't. He simply said he is there to manage ARod's image and brand. For all those who call Alex a fraud, you just got a dose of brutal honesty. He intends to try to extend his brand. Big effing deal.
Why is it offensive to hear the new brand manager of an entertainment product actually acknowledge his job is to broaden the appeal of the brand he's been tasked to manage?
sweet_lou_14
12-19-07, 04:25 PM
Why is it offensive to hear the new brand manager of an entertainment product actually acknowledge his job is to broaden the appeal of the brand he's been tasked to manage?
I bet A-Rod looks in the mirror every day and asks the same question.
In other words, he has no idea why people aren't in love with him when he basically tells them he is an "entertainment product."
A-Rod can view himself as a product, and as a brand. He is entitled to make as much money as opportunities allow. But he can't also wonder why people view him as "A-Rod Inc." with all the negative that goes with it. By telling us all that he is not only a person, but a business -- and in this regard he is very different from 95% of athletes out there, and even most of the superstars out there -- he risks the mistrust and suspicion that ordinary people have for any big business that markets and propagandizes itself in an ongoing, insatiable effort to extract as many of their dollars as possible.
LuckyLopez
12-19-07, 04:48 PM
I disagree - I think there are a number of Yankee fans that have booed this guy since he came here, maybe because of some uber loyalty to Jeter, they felt they couldn't embrace this guy...even if that number is at 20% of Yankee fans, it's way too much IMHO...
I don't disagree that those guys exist. Heck, I was probably once too hard on Tino because I was insanely loyal to Mattingly. I'm positive that you're right about these guys. But they're not making up the whole of those of us who haven't embraced A-Rod. There ARE other reasons he's not embraced. Lots of fans have lots of different reasons. Some may think he's a postseason choker. Some may be guilty of that "jealousy" think A_Rod fans assign to "haters." Some may just be "haters." Some may dislike his public statements and moves. Some may be turned off by his couple of on the field weird incidents the last few years. There ARE multiple reasons. And I think a clean break with Boras would at least appease a number of these people, at least on this issue. Because I can't be the only one in that position, can I?
If its 20% who are just unwilling to accept A-Rod because they deem it a "Jeter vs A-Rod" issue than I agree they're misguided. But that leaves 80% of the fanbase he can theoretically win over. That is "the fanbase at large", or at least what I meant by the phrase.
The fact is that Boras will be getting his 5% of Arod's paycheck for the next 10 years. He is legally bound to pay him since he was his agent at the time the deal was signed. Why not just keep him on in a diminished capacity since he has to pay him anyway?
Arod made a definite statement by hiring another agent to do what Boras had been doing up until that point.
Agenting is all about perceptions- and Boras rep is taking a hit here
Again, my understanding is that Arod has no choice in the matter legally- he has to pay Boras his cut over the length of the contract
PS
In the King article today- the new agent isn't a sports agent, so Arod would need someone for baseball matters- appealing fines or suspensions, etc- hence the need to have a sporta agent. Since he has to pay Boras anyway, why fire him to double pay someone else?
I can't imagine he'd ever actually have to double pay anyone. He has to give Boras is due. I have no doubt of that. Boras will get his 10% or whatever it is of A-Rod's deal. And he'll get whatever else he's legally entitled to. But the new agent won't get that cut, will he? Why would he? What right would he have to the contract that was signed before he was hired? A-Rod would pay him the future money that he would have given Boras, not the parts that he already owes Boras.
At least that makes no sense to me as a basic consumer. If I owe my gardner (just to pick someone I might hire) money and I part ways with him I still owe him that money. But I don't have to give him the monthly fees I give the guy I hired to replace him. And I don't owe the new guy for the work that has been done in the past. Where does the extra cost come in?
But the reality is A-Rod is trusting Boras with the future roles and duties and he's going to pay Boras EXTRA money over the next 10 years or however long he has him. That will be more than the 5% he owes over the next 10 years. So unless Boras has some sort of compensation fee for A-Rod breaking his contract, I don't see where the cost comes in. Maybe there is a penalty for breaking contract. But that's a pretty bad contract it would seem. And it would seem to have reversed roles as A-Rod is the employer, not Boras.
Reggievision
12-19-07, 04:58 PM
Michael Jordan had a level of popularity Alex will never sniff.
Due in large part to David Stern's sniffing of Jordan's own jockstrap, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.
JfromJersey
12-19-07, 05:37 PM
I bet A-Rod looks in the mirror every day and asks the same question.
In other words, he has no idea why people aren't in love with him when he basically tells them he is an "entertainment product."
A-Rod can view himself as a product, and as a brand. He is entitled to make as much money as opportunities allow. But he can't also wonder why people view him as "A-Rod Inc." with all the negative that goes with it. By telling us all that he is not only a person, but a business -- and in this regard he is very different from 95% of athletes out there, and even most of the superstars out there -- he risks the mistrust and suspicion that ordinary people have for any big business that markets and propagandizes itself in an ongoing, insatiable effort to extract as many of their dollars as possible.
I don't buy that argument. Up to this point, Jeter has been marketing himself a lot more than Arod. How many commercial brands have Jeter's endorsement? Yet, if Arod was the one hawking everything, he'd be called the biggest shill on the planet. Jeter has won championships with the Yankees, and has proven himself in the post season. That accounts for his popularity, and the grief Arod gets. Personality wise, Arod comes off better in interviews. He doesn't have that condescending attitude towards people that Jeter frequently has. Arod's fault is that he tries too hard to please, thus coming off as "phony". If Alex helps the Yankees win a title, his popularity will skyrocket. I have no doubt about that. It has very little to do with his image outside of baseball.
Zimmers' Helmet
12-19-07, 05:43 PM
I don't buy that argument. Up to this point, Jeter has been marketing himself a lot more than Arod. How many commercial brands have Jeter's endorsement? Yet, if Arod was the one hawking everything, he'd be called the biggest shill on the planet. Jeter has won championships with the Yankees, and has proven himself in the post season. That accounts for his popularity, and the grief Arod gets. Personality wise, Arod comes off better in interviews. He doesn't have that condescending attitude towards people that Jeter frequently has. Arod's fault is that he tries too hard to please, thus coming off as "phony". If Alex helps the Yankees win a title, his popularity will skyrocket. I have no doubt about that. It has very little to do with his image outside of baseball.
Great post; the bold part is the bottom line.
Yankees1962
12-19-07, 05:48 PM
I don't buy that argument. Up to this point, Jeter has been marketing himself a lot more than Arod. How many commercial brands have Jeter's endorsement? Yet, if Arod was the one hawking everything, he'd be called the biggest shill on the planet. Jeter has won championships with the Yankees, and has proven himself in the post season. That accounts for his popularity, and the grief Arod gets. Personality wise, Arod comes off better in interviews. He doesn't have that condescending attitude towards people that Jeter frequently has. Arod's fault is that he tries too hard to please, thus coming off as "phony". If Alex helps the Yankees win a title, his popularity will skyrocket. I have no doubt about that. It has very little to do with his image outside of baseball.
I've never seen Jeter being condescending towards anyone during interviews. Now, I've seen him say stuff without saying anything of substance, but that's not being condescending.
The thing is that Jeter has been able to stay out of controversy over the years while Arod has not at certain times.
A lot of fans just want him to keep all that to himself and worry about living up to that huge contract he signed with his performance on the field.
Why are you speaking as though Alex is some kind of exception to the rule. The captain of the New York Yankees makes far FAR more than his market value as far as baseball talent goes, yet most of us don't mind the fact that hes trying to shove watches, cologne, and trucks down our collective throats. Not to single you out, but I don't see you uneasy about the fact Derek isn't living up to his paycheck and yet we get to see things such as this
http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060801/060801_jeter_hmed_1p.hmedium.jpg
plastered all over billboards and magazine ads.
This is not considered trying to build up one's own brand???? He is slapping his name on the side of an overpriced bottle of cologne while his job is to play baseball. I for one personally get it 100%. Why the unbelievable outrage at the fact that a guy wants to earn as much for hismelf as he possibly can, and be able to afford his grandkids' grandkids the luxury of not having to work a day in their lives and still be wealthy? It was mentioned earlier and it echoes my sentiments completely, no matter what Alex does or says there is always going to be the fan who is going to slam him. He could dedicate the rest of his life to serving the poor or sickly and be lambasted for it. I have always felt it is because of some asinine inherent need to rip Alex in order to build up Jeter. I can't be certain of that though, because I simply can not understand this type of talk of him on any level what so ever.
JfromJersey
12-19-07, 06:54 PM
I've never seen Jeter being condescending towards anyone during interviews. Now, I've seen him say stuff without saying anything of substance, but that's not being condescending.
The thing is that Jeter has been able to stay out of controversy over the years while Arod has not at certain times.
I've seen him get snippy in his answers to what he considers dumb questions.
I've seen him take sarcastic tones in interviews after tough losses. He seldom smiles, frowns, or shows any emotion..never gives you a glimpse of what's going on inside that "stoic" but bland exterior. Both Arod and Jeter are controllers and manipulators in terms of the image they project, but Arod's personality projects a lot warmer than Derek's.
b-ball-lunachick
12-19-07, 07:10 PM
I don't disagree that those guys exist. Heck, I was probably once too hard on Tino because I was insanely loyal to Mattingly. I'm positive that you're right about these guys. But they're not making up the whole of those of us who haven't embraced A-Rod. There ARE other reasons he's not embraced. Lots of fans have lots of different reasons. Some may think he's a postseason choker. Some may be guilty of that "jealousy" think A_Rod fans assign to "haters." Some may just be "haters." Some may dislike his public statements and moves. Some may be turned off by his couple of on the field weird incidents the last few years. There ARE multiple reasons. And I think a clean break with Boras would at least appease a number of these people, at least on this issue. Because I can't be the only one in that position, can I?
If its 20% who are just unwilling to accept A-Rod because they deem it a "Jeter vs A-Rod" issue than I agree they're misguided. But that leaves 80% of the fanbase he can theoretically win over. That is "the fanbase at large", or at least what I meant by the phrase.
I guess it's just hard for me to understand why he wasn't embraced by any Yankee fan when he became a Yankee so it's going to be hard for me to debate what would make them embrace him going forward. There are very few guys who become Yankees that I wouldn't embrace -- one being Benitez for obvious reasons..but A-Rod? no, I just don't get it..
sweet_lou_14
12-19-07, 09:02 PM
Why are you speaking as though Alex is some kind of exception to the rule. ...
I have always felt it is because of some asinine inherent need to rip Alex in order to build up Jeter. I can't be certain of that though, because I simply can not understand this type of talk of him on any level what so ever.
I know you didn't explicitly accuse me of being an A-Rod hater (I'm not, I swear), nor did you exactly say you think I personally am guilty of "some asinine inherent need to rip Alex in order to build up Jeter" (after all, I haven't even mentioned Jeter). But I just want to make sure it's clear that these statements don't apply to me.
I have actually been given the Derek Jeter cologne as a gag gift by a Red Sox fan friend of mine. I think it's pretty goofy. Again, I never, ever said in any of my posts that athletes aren't entitled to hawk products and make money however they want to. And while we'll have to disagree on whether Jeter's "brand building" is as overt and obnoxious as A-Rod's, I readily concede that putting your name on a cologne is an example of "brand building" to a degree that doing a Ford commercial (Jeter) or a Pepsi commercial (A-Rod) is not.
The more I think about this thread, the more certain I am that it belongs in the Outside the Lines forum. I mention that because it gets at the heart of my issue here. I think what hurts A-Rod's image, the one he's so desperate to build up, is that he talks to the media directly and openly about all of his "outside the lines" ambitions in a way that all the other guys mentioned in this thread (certainly Jeter, and even Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan) simply don't. With extremely few exceptions, they talk to the media (i.e. the fans) about what goes on "inside the lines" only. Then they go out and make their money. They seem to understand, in a way A-Rod does not, that the love of fans comes solely from performance on the field, and that fans simply do not want to hear about their plans to take over the world. Most fans are much more drawn to the "aw shucks" attitude of a kid like Joba Chamberlain than they could ever be to someone as calculating as A-Rod ... and why wouldn't they be?
Fans root for players, not brands or products. Every time A-Rod publicly reinforces his image as a brand or product, he runs the risk of alienating fans. That's all I'm trying to say.
The Q Bomb
12-19-07, 10:02 PM
...Some people have a problem viewing an athlete as a high profile celebrity, even in this day and age, when the lines between famous entertainers, athletes, and even politicians are blurred. For the highest profile athlete, on the highest profile team, in the biggest media market, Arod's hire of a business agent/image consultant is a wise business decision, especially when his every word or action is scrutinized to death, distorted, and used to nurture the impression that he is the world's biggest fraud. Yes, the hiring of this agent may be "a wise business decision" but it is not so wise of A-Rod to announce it. That's the type of thing that turns people off, rightly or wrongly, as sweet lou 14 noted. I even thought it "odd" (for lack of a better word) that he and his wife announced to a magazine with a prepared statement that they were expecting their second child. I mean, did he think he was the King of England or something? But, my point was that this stuff is small potatoes - a matter of style and form over substance. The bottom line is, he seems like a relatively nice guy (as long as you don't bring him the wrong lunch order in the clubhouse), is obviously a hard worker and most talented player - why the big deal over his "awkward public presence"?
LuckyLopez
12-19-07, 10:09 PM
I guess it's just hard for me to understand why he wasn't embraced by any Yankee fan when he became a Yankee so it's going to be hard for me to debate what would make them embrace him going forward. There are very few guys who become Yankees that I wouldn't embrace -- one being Benitez for obvious reasons..but A-Rod? no, I just don't get it..
Yeah, I don't mean to argue what he can or can't do to be embraced. Or whether he should or shouldn't. People have different standards and biases. I haven't embraced him. Why? I don't know. I'm not one of those people who embraces anyone in the uniform. I haven't really lived or died with any player since Mattingly (and I was a kid). I appreciate watching the guy play and the plus he gives to the team. Up to now I thought there was a good chance he would be a short term Yankee and he hadn't endeared himself to me for whatever reason. I don't dislike him either. He's just a player. Maybe that will change sometime in the 10 years. I don't know. But 10 fans probably have 10 different sets of criteria and bias for what makes players loved in their eyes.
Really, I just get chaffed when the idea seems to come across that if you criticize an aspect of A-Rod you're probably part of that 20% or whatever that just want to hate him. Because they're jealous, because he's not Jeter, whatever. Sometimes its just an issue or two that can be resolved or changed.
sweet_lou_14
12-19-07, 10:20 PM
Really, I just get chaffed when the idea seems to come across that if you criticize an aspect of A-Rod you're probably part of that 20% or whatever that just want to hate him. Because they're jealous, because he's not Jeter, whatever. Sometimes its just an issue or two that can be resolved or changed.
Agreed.
"They're just jealous" is something overprotective moms tell their six-year-olds. I really hope people aren't actually saying this nonsense to A-Rod, and even more so I hope he doesn't actually believe it. If that were the answer then the people who have a hard time with A-Rod would have a hard time with every celebrity, but they don't.
bronxbomberz212
12-19-07, 10:45 PM
Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, and others have made movies that people paid money to see them in. This is a level of "entertainer" that A-Rod has not attempted. My prediction: he would be a miserable failure if he tried, because most people don't like him anywhere near as much as they liked those guys.
let's see, how much money did space jam, and kazaam make at the box office??? are you serious. not many people paid money to see shaq or jordan in their movies. so the claim you're making about a-rod seems a bit presumptious considering that both of the high profile athletes that you seem enamored with due to their appearence in two very low quality kid's movies. i doubt a-rod is gonna sign on to be in the next kazaam movie. but at the same time, the point you're trying to make is kinda silly.
bronxbomberz212
12-19-07, 11:02 PM
I guess it's just hard for me to understand why he wasn't embraced by any Yankee fan when he became a Yankee so it's going to be hard for me to debate what would make them embrace him going forward. There are very few guys who become Yankees that I wouldn't embrace -- one being Benitez for obvious reasons..but A-Rod? no, I just don't get it..
finally someone echoing my own sentiments. it's amazing that as yankee fans we get to watch a-rod who to put it bluntly is the best clean hitter of our generation. and yet there are yankee fan who continue to hate him and not embrace him with open arms. a quick story for ya, i was at a furniture store sometime last year, and i was talking baseball with this salesman, and the hatred that he was spewing about a-rod made me sick. the guy was a world class moron. claiming that greg nettles was a better player than a-rod. no i have complete respect for nettles and what he brought to the team, but the statement was completely silly. he claimed that we should get rid of a-rod. i told him hey buddy, a-rod is the best and you're a hater. if the yanks get rid of him, they are in a lot of trouble, they have no one to replace him in the farm system, the f.a. class next season is atrocious in terms of 3rd basemen, and we'd have to mortgage the farm in a trade. the guy was a complete tool.
sweet_lou_14
12-19-07, 11:21 PM
let's see, how much money did space jam, and kazaam make at the box office??? are you serious. not many people paid money to see shaq or jordan in their movies. so the claim you're making about a-rod seems a bit presumptious considering that both of the high profile athletes that you seem enamored with due to their appearence in two very low quality kid's movies. i doubt a-rod is gonna sign on to be in the next kazaam movie. but at the same time, the point you're trying to make is kinda silly.
I'm not "enamored" with anybody here. Stop putting words in my mouth please.
I used those movies as an example where an athlete was paid to be a real "entertainer" of some kind. While sports is entertainment, I do not buy into the idea that athletes are entertainers by the strict definition of the word. The Undertaker is an "entertainer" ... A-Rod is not, at least not in my book. But Jordan and O'Neal were being "entertainers" when they made those movies. Whether the movies were good or not, there were producers willing to pay them to be in those movies, because they believed that they could put butts in the seats.
My personal belief is that there is no movie producer crazy enough to think that A-Rod could put butts in the seats of a movie theater. But he sure does put them in the seats at the ballpark.
a2ruYankee
12-19-07, 11:38 PM
let's see, how much money did space jam, and kazaam make at the box office??? are you serious. not many people paid money to see shaq or jordan in their movies. so the claim you're making about a-rod seems a bit presumptious considering that both of the high profile athletes that you seem enamored with due to their appearence in two very low quality kid's movies. i doubt a-rod is gonna sign on to be in the next kazaam movie. but at the same time, the point you're trying to make is kinda silly.
SpaceJam has pulled in almost the same amount as AROD's first contract. Thats right... almost a Quarter Billion
Kazaam only pulled $18 mil
so you are right on one... not on the other
themgmt
12-20-07, 02:08 AM
according to boxofficemojo space jam only did 90 million domestically, 140 world wide. so you can argue that space jam flopped in the states. jordan/bugs bunny/looney tunes however are international icons so it picked up a little slack elsewhere. either way those aren't very good numbers
kazaam did 19 million domestically, which is downright awful
Godspeed
12-20-07, 02:53 AM
PS: at one point, Jordan was the most recognized face in the world.
I doubt 50% of casual baseball fans would notice A-rod walking by them on the street.
LuckyLopez
12-20-07, 03:01 PM
Calling Space Jam poor seems very unreasonable. The $90M domestically was good for 18th of the year in '96 and turned a profit of over $10M on the budget. The $140M worldwide was all pure profit. It may not hold up much against the alltime numbers that movies like Shrek, Pirates, Spider-Man, and Transformers routinely challenge today but it seemed to fare very well.
Jordan also is arguably the biggest spokesman in the world. He remains the public face of Hanes. Nike has an extended line of designs in his name. Wheaties, McDonalds, Coke-a-Cola, Gatorade, Ball Park Franks. Its one thing to argue Shaq, but Jordan very clearly is on a different level and A-Rod would take a lot to come near him some day.
Yankees1962
12-20-07, 03:25 PM
Calling Space Jam poor seems very unreasonable. The $90M domestically was good for 18th of the year in '96 and turned a profit of over $10M on the budget. The $140M worldwide was all pure profit. It may not hold up much against the alltime numbers that movies like Shrek, Pirates, Spider-Man, and Transformers routinely challenge today but it seemed to fare very well.
Jordan also is arguably the biggest spokesman in the world. He remains the public face of Hanes. Nike has an extended line of shows in his name. Wheaties, McDonalds, Coke-a-Cola, Gatorade, Ball Park Franks. Its one thing to argue Shaq, but Jordan very clearly is on a different level and A-Rod would take a lot to come near him some day.
Don't forget this title sold a ton of dvds so more monies added to the profit margin.
LuckyLopez
12-20-07, 04:21 PM
There was also a great deal of merchandising as I know that somewhere in my mother's house there are at least one Daffy Duck in his basketball uniform plush and a 3 set of figures depicting MJ as a basketball player, baseball player, and golfer.
Space Jam was successful and big at the time. There's a world of room for success well below the success of the greatest box offices of all time. Netting $150M+ is a good start. And I'm willing to bet no athlete today including A-Rod would have much of a shot at it in the same circumstances.
Jersey Yankee
12-20-07, 05:10 PM
Calling Space Jam poor seems very unreasonable. The $90M domestically was good for 18th of the year in '96 and turned a profit of over $10M on the budget. The $140M worldwide was all pure profit. It may not hold up much against the alltime numbers that movies like Shrek, Pirates, Spider-Man, and Transformers routinely challenge today but it seemed to fare very well.
Jordan also is arguably the biggest spokesman in the world. He remains the public face of Hanes. Nike has an extended line of designs in his name. Wheaties, McDonalds, Coke-a-Cola, Gatorade, Ball Park Franks. Its one thing to argue Shaq, but Jordan very clearly is on a different level and A-Rod would take a lot to come near him some day.
Has Alex Rodriguez even begun appearing in TV, radio or print ads in the NYC area? I haven't seen diddly squat from him, and after 4 years, neither a Yankeeography nor an SNL appearance. Where the hell is "Mrs Alex Rodriguez"? (in drag, as in the case of "Mrs David Wells" and "Mrs David Cone" from that SNL appearance)
LuckyLopez
12-20-07, 05:48 PM
Well, I'd suspect that now that he's likely a Yankee for life and that the march towards Bonds will start to be a story his star will rise a bit. And if he wins a championship that will shake a lot of the criticism of him and raise his star some more. But the uncertain nature of his future in NY probably contributed to his relative lack of spokesman work.
Still, he's going to have a fight to top out Jeter in NY. And if he does he'll have a hard road topping out a guy like Peyton Manning across the country. MJ is a level I'd be shocked to see him ever come near.
sweet_lou_14
12-20-07, 11:59 PM
Well, I'd suspect that now that he's likely a Yankee for life and that the march towards Bonds will start to be a story his star will rise a bit. And if he wins a championship that will shake a lot of the criticism of him and raise his star some more. But the uncertain nature of his future in NY probably contributed to his relative lack of spokesman work.
Still, he's going to have a fight to top out Jeter in NY. And if he does he'll have a hard road topping out a guy like Peyton Manning across the country. MJ is a level I'd be shocked to see him ever come near.
Barring injury, there is little doubt he'll shatter all sorts of records. Barring a PED scandal, there is little doubt that he'll end up being hailed among the greatest to ever play the game. As a Yankee fan I love having him on my team.
But that isn't really the same thing as becoming a cultural icon, recognized and adored by people from all walks of life, men and women, Americans and people overseas. Is Joe Namath even in the top 10 quarterbacks all-time in terms of on-field performance? Of course not. But has any QB in the history of the NFL come even close to his level of cross-over appeal and superstardom? No way. (Athletes certainly have more opportunity today to rake in the money than Namath did in his time, but nonetheless there was a period where Namath seemed to own the world ... Favre, Manning, and Brady can't say that.)
I just don't see A-Rod's personality and charisma enabling him to achieve a level of mass popularity even approaching the levels of a Joe Namath or Michael Jordan or Muhammad Ali. Or even the level of Reggie Jackson or Derek Jeter, who I'd put at least one notch below those other guys. But I hesitate to even mention Jeter in an A-Rod thread, it's too easily misinterpreted around here.
LuckyLopez
12-21-07, 01:42 AM
Agreed. It takes more than just talent and success to become the sort of cross over personality that people are talking about. It takes a certain personality and comfort with that world. Its also takes a personal willingness to become that sort of celebrity, as many athletes would surely rather keep as much privacy as they can and not strive to be stars and house hold names.
A-Rod may not have that personality and there's reason to argue that he hasn't displayed it to this point. He has often looked uncomfortable with his own fame and the media and fans' interest in him. As he grows more comfortable with his place as a Yankee, in NY, and his role in baseball history its possible this will change. A year from now he may be a World Series MVP and many of the burdens put on him may fall away, allowing him to be more of the casual star that others are.
I'm sure he'll see increased exposure and opportunity as long as he stays healthy, on track, and PED free (As you said). And for that securing an agent who understands that world and trying to establish a "brand" makes sense. But we're baseball fans and as long as we have some questions or concerns about his role on the field some of us are likely to not want to hear about his non-baseball ambitions. If 7 years from now A-Rod has yet to get a win and A-Rod has never vindicated his playoff performances in the eyes of NY then the city is going to respond very poorly to him outwardly pushing himself as a star and brand. If he's won a pair of championships the city will embrace him and see his ambitions as deserving of his talent and all he's accomplished. Its just the nature of being a professional athlete. Part of what can propel an MJ, Namath, Shaq, Reggie, or Jeter up a level is them winning championships and "proving" themselves as "winners." And I don't think its any coincidence that Peyton Manning's presence as a spokesman and mainstream figure increased when he won a Super Bowl and shook off the criticisms many had of him.
Jobatime
12-21-07, 05:16 PM
http://http://youbeenblinded.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/a-rod-hp-binder.pdf
sweet_lou_14
12-21-07, 07:11 PM
http://http://youbeenblinded.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/a-rod-hp-binder.pdf
Is that the famous binder Boras distributed?
In some ways, I'm underwhelmed. From a pure visual presentation standpoint, it has no production quality at all.
sweet_lou_14
12-21-07, 07:14 PM
Agreed. It takes more than just talent and success to become the sort of cross over personality that people are talking about. It takes a certain personality and comfort with that world. Its also takes a personal willingness to become that sort of celebrity, as many athletes would surely rather keep as much privacy as they can and not strive to be stars and house hold names.
A-Rod may not have that personality and there's reason to argue that he hasn't displayed it to this point. He has often looked uncomfortable with his own fame and the media and fans' interest in him. As he grows more comfortable with his place as a Yankee, in NY, and his role in baseball history its possible this will change. A year from now he may be a World Series MVP and many of the burdens put on him may fall away, allowing him to be more of the casual star that others are.
I'm sure he'll see increased exposure and opportunity as long as he stays healthy, on track, and PED free (As you said). And for that securing an agent who understands that world and trying to establish a "brand" makes sense. But we're baseball fans and as long as we have some questions or concerns about his role on the field some of us are likely to not want to hear about his non-baseball ambitions. If 7 years from now A-Rod has yet to get a win and A-Rod has never vindicated his playoff performances in the eyes of NY then the city is going to respond very poorly to him outwardly pushing himself as a star and brand. If he's won a pair of championships the city will embrace him and see his ambitions as deserving of his talent and all he's accomplished. Its just the nature of being a professional athlete. Part of what can propel an MJ, Namath, Shaq, Reggie, or Jeter up a level is them winning championships and "proving" themselves as "winners." And I don't think its any coincidence that Peyton Manning's presence as a spokesman and mainstream figure increased when he won a Super Bowl and shook off the criticisms many had of him.
Great post, I agree all the way.
Proctor's Orders
12-22-07, 10:05 PM
The whole situation stinks...A-Rod tested the waters, realized he wasn't going to get anywhere near what he was told his market value was (Boras WAY overestimated) and he came crawling back w/his tail between his legs...Ive supported A-Rod from day one, but this scenario reeks. Maybe im being pessimistic, who knows...
goin for 27
12-22-07, 11:16 PM
The whole situation stinks...A-Rod tested the waters, realized he wasn't going to get anywhere near what he was told his market value was (Boras WAY overestimated) and he came crawling back w/his tail between his legs...Ive supported A-Rod from day one, but this scenario reeks. Maybe im being pessimistic, who knows...
He got $275+ Million. No one underestimated anything....
Proctor's Orders
12-23-07, 09:39 PM
He got $275+ Million. No one underestimated anything....
He originally wanted 300 mil just to talk...
JeffWeaverFan
12-23-07, 09:42 PM
He originally wanted 300 mil just to talk...
Actually $350M, but that was Boras, who obviously wanted to test free agency with A-Rod.
The Q Bomb
12-24-07, 05:29 PM
[quote=LuckyLopez]Agreed. It takes more than just talent and success to become the sort of cross over personality that people are talking about. It takes a certain personality and comfort with that world. Its also takes a personal willingness to become that sort of celebrity, as many athletes would surely rather keep as much privacy as they can and not strive to be stars and house hold names.
A-Rod may not have that personality and there's reason to argue that he hasn't displayed it to this point. He has often looked uncomfortable with his own fame and the media and fans' interest in him. As he grows more comfortable with his place as a Yankee, in NY, and his role in baseball history its possible this will change. A year from now he may be a World Series MVP and many of the burdens put on him may fall away, allowing him to be more of the casual star that others are.
.../quote]
A very good post, however, I disagree that A-Rod looks uncomfortable with his own fame or is not comfortable with being that "cross-over personality". I think he is very comfortable with his fame and embraces becoming a "cross-over personality" - one of those sports stars who transends sports. I think the very fact that he does want and embrace this role turns a lot of people off. (I like A-Rod, but his announcement that he hired a PR person to "increase his brand" was a turn off to me. He just seems like he thinks too much about that stuff.)
What he seems to be uncomfortable with, to me, is criticism. He seems to have a hard time dealing with negative press, negative feedback, or any kind of negativity directed at him as are most people. What he doesn't seem to have is the thick skin necessary to let the negative feedback (save constructive criticism) roll off his back - instead trying to hard to turn that negative feedback around. It looks like he made some strides in this area last year and that can only help him moving forward.
Hopefully, he will continue to get chances to play in the playoffs and moving forward his post season performance will again start to mirror his regular season production.
Cardinal Fan
12-30-07, 10:51 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/30/2007-12-30_scott_boras_ego_has_yet_to_recover_from_.html
Several weeks after Alex Rodriguez broke free from Scott Boras’ influence and personally talked Hank Steinbrenner into rethinking his Yankee opt-out ultimatum, a lingering media perception suggests that it was all some clever plan contrived to get A-Rod his $300 million and repair his battered image.
Perhaps A-Rod has only himself to blame for such cynicism that surrounds his every move. But baseball insiders insist the hard feelings on A-Rod’s part toward Boras are genuine, that in taking over the negotiations himself he accused his agent of betrayal by misleading him about the level of interest from the Yankees.
Likewise, they say that Boras is reeling from the ego blow A-Rod dealt him by telling the world on “60 Minutes” he’s not even speaking to his agent these days.
“Yeah, (Boras) made his commission,” a prominent agent said this week, “but, come on, do you know how much money he has? With Boras it’s all about being king of the jungle, the most powerful agent and the toughest negotiator in the game.
“He loves being the guy that everyone in baseball fears. He wouldn’t for a minute concoct a plan that would diminish his reputation. His image as a god to the players is too important to him.
“A-Rod might not be the most popular guy in the game, but don’t think he didn’t do some serious damage to Boras’ image. He basically called the guy a lying weasel on national TV. Nobody in the business is shedding any tears for Boras, believe me, but he took a serious hit.”
For that matter, A-Rod detailed what many in baseball have suspected Boras of doing for years: keeping clients in the dark about negotiations as he goes about making the deal he wants to make.
“And Boras didn’t seem comfortable dealing with the Yankees about A-Rod once George Steinbrenner was out of the picture,” the person said. “He had a relationship with George, who always said that Boras was a tough but fair negotiator. But Hank and Hal (Steinbrenner) didn’t play up to him. Hal, especially, was tough with him. Boras didn’t like dealing with Hal.”
Whatever the reason, Boras took A-Rod down the opt-out path and it all blew up on him. His multi-million dollar commission apparently hasn’t healed all wounds. “He has tried to call more than once,” one person close to A-Rod said. “Alex hasn’t taken the calls.”
hankandhal
12-30-07, 05:47 PM
the painful things is the money that Texas paid is now gone. Why couldn't the extension be done before he opted out. It cost the Yankees in the neighborhood of 25? million that they didn't have to pay That has got to piss my namesake off
BBombers85
12-30-07, 06:11 PM
The bottom line is A-rod got the money that was coming to him and therefore, so did Boras. Boras will still have big name clients and A-rod will get his records. The end result of all this: ZERO.
I think this entire topic is now water under the bridge.
sweet_lou_14
12-30-07, 08:31 PM
The bottom line is A-rod got the money that was coming to him and therefore, so did Boras. Boras will still have big name clients and A-rod will get his records. The end result of all this: ZERO.
This fiasco potentially affects Boras in at least three ways:
1. It may convince some players that they don't want him as their agent
2. It may weaken him in future negotiations with teams
3. It may prevent him from negotiating "his way," i.e. keeping his players in the dark while he makes the deal that best suits him
That is absolutely not a zero impact.
BBombers85
12-30-07, 08:46 PM
This fiasco potentially affects Boras in at least three ways:
1. It may convince some players that they don't want him as their agent
2. It may weaken him in future negotiations with teams
3. It may prevent him from negotiating "his way," i.e. keeping his players in the dark while he makes the deal that best suits him
That is absolutely not a zero impact.
1. Certainly players are not going to go the A-rod route and negotiate contracts themselves. Who will they hire? Casey Close? The Hendricks brothers? Arne Tellem? The fact of the matter is, Boras is still a powerful agent. Even after this whole fiasco it was reported that Jacoby Ellsbury hired him (confirm?)
2. He is still cunning and will play teams against each other. The fact of the matter was, Kenny Rogers and A-rod knew they wanted to stay where they were and this is not Boras' strong point. I think if you have a young player whose primary objective is monetary thats a typical Boras client. Arod and Rogers have made their money and want to win. I think he'll still be himself in negotiations.
3. I really don't believe players are in the dark when Boras negotiates. If thats true then I've got it thought all wrong. I think players dictate their preferences and he tries to accomodate best. I think we can all safely assume young players (less than 32 years old) want money. Heck, if Tampa Bay is paying you 5 years 100 M (totally made up) what player would take 3 years and 60 M from the Red Sox or Yankees, for example? Would you as a player (regardless of the fact that you are a Yankees fan)?
I am not defending Boras, but I do think he is smart. I'm trying to say that this doesn't change anything in the long term for Boras.
yankeebot
12-30-07, 08:54 PM
I don't think this will change anything with Boras in his ability to attract clients, negotiate with teams, etc. I do think he might change a little himself though and make it a point to listen to his client a little more closely. And that's not a bad thing.
goin for 27
12-30-07, 10:58 PM
This fiasco potentially affects Boras in at least three ways:
1. It may convince some players that they don't want him as their agent
2. It may weaken him in future negotiations with teams
3. It may prevent him from negotiating "his way," i.e. keeping his players in the dark while he makes the deal that best suits him
That is absolutely not a zero impact.
1. Why? ARod just signed the biggest deal in history. That is what the players want.
2. How? (Seriously)
3. He does not do this today, likely the biggest fallacy when it comes to Boras.
Godspeed
12-31-07, 07:09 PM
If you can't see why this is horrible for Boras, contact me. I am selling everything I own.
sweet_lou_14
12-31-07, 07:35 PM
1. Why? ARod just signed the biggest deal in history. That is what the players want.
A-Rod had to dump Boras to complete that deal. The consummation of the deal also precedes A-Rod's public distancing of himself from Boras. So I don't see how it's relevant to the future impact of this horrible PR move.
2. How? (Seriously)
As much as I am not a fan of Hank Steinbrenner's blustery style, I think in the A-Rod case specifically his negotiation through the media significantly weakened Boras' position in a few ways. It not only uncovered the degree to which Boras was leaving his client in the dark, it defeated that strategy by communicating information directly to the player -- not only the "raw information" of what was being offered, but the equally valuable information of the public's severe negative reaction to what the agent was doing on the player's behalf.
I think that going forward, every time a team hits a wall dealing with Boras, they are going to question whether the player is being kept out of the process. They are going to consider doing whatever they can to get unfiltered information directly to the player. That could mean negotiating in the media, or it could mean insisting the player sit at the table for certain discussions, or whatever. But Boras' ability to keep the player out of the process is going to be challenged at every turn by any smart organization.
3. He does not do this today, likely the biggest fallacy when it comes to Boras.
I think it's been shown that this is exactly what he does. I'm not sure what information you have to the contrary.
Godspeed
12-31-07, 08:56 PM
You guys forget kenny rogers ditched the bitch and rode solo too.
ny_yankees22
01-02-08, 07:12 AM
I really hope this news is accurate although I doubt it very much so. Regardless what happens though i'm willing to get over what happened and enjoy having him back as a Yankee. I think we should all embrace and support him from the beginning of this year rather than boo him.
effdamets
01-02-08, 07:29 AM
I really hope this news is accurate although I doubt it very much so. Regardless what happens though i'm willing to get over what happened and enjoy having him back as a Yankee. I think we should all embrace and support him from the beginning of this year rather than boo him.
I believe that anyone who is angry with Alex right now will change their minds the first time he drills a 3-run homer into the Yankees' bullpen! :D
cajunyankee
01-02-08, 08:21 AM
"I believe that anyone who is angry with Alex right now will change their minds the first time he drills a 3-run homer into the Yankees' bullpen,...... :D....increasing the lead to a nearly insurmountable 11-2 in the bottom of the eighth!!"
YanksFanTillDeath
01-02-08, 09:05 AM
I believe that anyone who is angry with Alex right now will change their minds the first time he drills a 3-run homer into the Yankees' bullpen! :D
a walkoff at the opener might help:D:D
yankeebot
01-02-08, 09:14 AM
....increasing the lead to a nearly insurmountable 11-2 in the bottom of the eighth!!"
:yawn:
In Mo I Trust
01-02-08, 09:16 AM
....increasing the lead to a nearly insurmountable 11-2 in the bottom of the eighth!!"
I'd suggest re-watching the 2007 season, or just watching the 9th inning of each game, Arod hit about .450 with 10 or so home runs.
I'd suggest re-watching the 2007 season, or just watching the 9th inning of each game, Arod hit about .450 with 10 or so home runs.
Cajun is probably sore about Guidry getting the boot
b-ball-lunachick
01-02-08, 11:00 AM
I'd suggest re-watching the 2007 season, or just watching the 9th inning of each game, Arod hit about .450 with 10 or so home runs.
seriously..I'm with you and yankeebot...these people must have missed this season...
4bronxbombers
01-02-08, 11:04 AM
seriously..I'm with you and yankeebot...these people must have missed this season...
It's really unbelievable....
teknetic
01-02-08, 11:40 AM
I figured Cajun was joking :eek:
b-ball-lunachick
01-02-08, 09:43 PM
I figured Cajun was joking :eek:
nah, not with posts like these:
Yep, it was DURING ARod that nearly killed us.
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?p=4669074#post4669074
Awesome!!
The Yankees deserve ARod
and ARod deserves the Yankees!
WOOT!!!!!!
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?p=4708476#post4708476
Check the TITLE of this thread-- A-ROD/"PLAYOFFS"
Not regular season.
Not teammate co-chokers.
He did his reverse-Superman again, jumping into the phone booth and putting back on his Clark Kent civvies just in time for the Big Time.
http://forums.nyyfans.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4623898
Congrads. Remember Individual Best still gets the little trophy.
http://forums.nyyfans.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4717946
the cajun is a little feisty where A-Rod is concerned. ;)
sweet_lou_14
01-03-08, 08:51 AM
the cajun is a little feisty where A-Rod is concerned. ;)
Like it or not, unfortunately it is still a defensible position to slam A-Rod for his postseason performance over the past several years. It's not my position, but I respect it as defensible.
Anyway it's all been beaten to death in A-Rod's case. But there are fans for which the postseason is all that matters, and those people save their harshest criticism for players and teams that dominate the regular season. If the Patriots don't win the Super Bowl, those voices will be all you will hear ... already, the word "meaningless" has been attached to the 16-0 season if they don't get a ring. It is that mindset that caused the Daily News to put a bitter "So What" spin on A-Rod's 2005 MVP.
So, A-Rod is not the only one who gets treated this way ... it's the predominant mentality among sports fans and talking heads.
Yankees1962
03-08-08, 11:11 AM
Another article on how Arod came back to the Yankees.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/03/07/heyman.arod/index.html?eref=T1
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