View Full Version : The Official Hank Steinbrenner Performance Thread
OldYankeeFan
11-15-07, 09:48 AM
I think it's safe to say we now know who the new "Boss" is. Only a month or so on the throne and he is making himself known. Already he is getting some criticism for stepping onto Cashman's turf and that he should just keep quiet. It also appears that will NOT be the case. Looks like Hank has taken charge and will be heard.
So in grading his performance, so far I really like what I see. So far I think he's done VERY well.
I really do believe Arod wanted all along to stay a Yankee. It just makes TOO much sense for that not to be true. But I also believe Boras talked him into going for the 350 mil, believing that George would cave.
"But then Alex saw the shift in power, with the Steinbrenner sons taking over, and here was Hank saying 'Goodbye, we don't want you if you don't want to be a Yankee.' Those words really messed with his mind because he really did want to be a Yankee." -- an undisclosed source close to Alex
At the time I really didn't mind Hank echoing my sentiments, and as it turns out it was the perfect negotiating strategy whether he meant for it to be or not. It either shows very good instincts, or what I believe is a planned coordinated approach coming from Cashman and agreed to by Hank. If that is the case, and so far it appears to be in everything he has said, I think it's a huge improvement over the way George ran things.
I feel really good about Hank. Long live the new BOSS!
bostonyankeefan
11-15-07, 09:51 AM
I think that his frequent public statements are dangerous, and he could undermine Cashman in the process, but otherwise I am glad that another Steinbrenner is involved. Think of how bad it could be with an owner who cares only about the bottom line.
OldYankeeFan
11-15-07, 10:03 AM
I think that his frequent public statements are dangerous, and he could undermine Cashman in the process, but otherwise I am glad that another Steinbrenner is involved. Think of how bad it could be with an owner who cares only about the bottom line.
I guess there is a possibility of him undermining Cashman, but to me it looks more like a coordinated effort between them, with Hank following Brians lead,. It looks to me like Hank and Cash have been on the exact same page in everything that Hank has addressed publicly. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Dog Named Fred
11-15-07, 10:05 AM
Will his nickname be Little Stein or, as Rob Neyer suggested, Hankenstein? Any other possibilities?
ARoDfan4life
11-15-07, 10:09 AM
ALL HAIL THE GRAND PUBA !!!
http://btworship.com/images/Bow1.jpg
THEBOSS84
11-15-07, 10:14 AM
Will his nickname be Little Stein or, as Rob Neyer suggested, Hankenstein? Any other possibilities?
Mr. Hankee or Hankee, Lord of the Yankees
NYYDragoon
11-15-07, 10:16 AM
I have to say, I appreciate him being hard on Arod initially. It's nice to know that he didn't instantly answer his phone (as his dad probably would have done).
I feel like he's a blast from the past--with with a little more appreciation for homegrown young talent.
OldYankeeFan
11-15-07, 10:16 AM
Will his nickname be Little Stein or, as Rob Neyer suggested, Hankenstein? Any other possibilities?
Little Stein is what I have been using in other threads but since this was the "Official"
Hank Steinbrenner Performance Thread, I thought I should be a little more formal. ;)
primetime714
11-15-07, 10:21 AM
I guess there is a possibility of him undermining Cashman, but to me it looks more like a coordinated effort between them, with Hank following Brians lead,. It looks to me like Hank and Cash have been on the exact same page in everything that Hank has addressed publicly. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Exactly. Cashman is still in charge, Hank just wants to make a name for himself and let everyone know that he is the new face of the ownership. Maybe as time moves along and Hank gets more comfortable in his role he may attempt to undermind Cashman and take things into his own hands, but for now he is just following suit. This is Cashman's team.
OldYankeeFan
11-15-07, 12:27 PM
Exactly. Cashman is still in charge, Hank just wants to make a name for himself and let everyone know that he is the new face of the ownership. Maybe as time moves along and Hank gets more comfortable in his role he may attempt to undermind Cashman and take things into his own hands, but for now he is just following suit. This is Cashman's team.
And it's comforting knowing Little Stein agrees with Cashman's approach to spending the $$ for scouting and the drafts to bring up young (cost effective) players with superstar capabilities and fill in the rest with FA, keeping the really good young talent in house.
sweet_lou_14
11-15-07, 12:31 PM
Exactly. Cashman is still in charge, Hank just wants to make a name for himself and let everyone know that he is the new face of the ownership. Maybe as time moves along and Hank gets more comfortable in his role he may attempt to undermind Cashman and take things into his own hands, but for now he is just following suit. This is Cashman's team.
I wish I could be absolutely certain this is true because I'd be able to enjoy it more instead of reaching for the Rolaids every time he opens his mouth.
Casey37
11-15-07, 12:41 PM
For someone who's been on the job for what seems like just a few days, Hank Steinbrenner's getting some good reviews from someone nobody expected, Mike Lupica. I really like the way he ends his column in today's Daily News.
They didn't look great with Torre. But there's something in here, something pretty important, about not being afraid to look bad if you think it helps the Yankees. In that way, they may be more like the old man than we originally thought.
//http://forums.nyyfans.com/newreply.php (http://forums.nyyfans.com/newreply.php)
Its like bizarro world today. Yankees do something absolutely idiotic by bending over for A-rod and the media is singing their praises.
"The Straw"
11-15-07, 12:43 PM
Exactly. Cashman is still in charge, Hank just wants to make a name for himself and let everyone know that he is the new face of the ownership. Maybe as time moves along and Hank gets more comfortable in his role he may attempt to undermind Cashman and take things into his own hands, but for now he is just following suit. This is Cashman's team.
If that were true Cashman would be negotiating his own contract extension with that loud mouth I like to call Hank the Tank. Diarrhea of the mouth is not a quality it's a fault. So far all I have seen from him is a cheap immitation of his father in the early 80's and that's not a good thing. Hopefully his little brother has the stones to get him to down shift and go Golfing or something.
YankeesAce4Life
11-15-07, 12:52 PM
He's done a really good job, but sometimes he needs to shut his mouth. He's just like his father and likes to hear himself speak. Besides that, he has shown that he will be a great owner like "The Boss."
Oh boy.
Good to see you again. I have been missing your frequent comments on many subjects. Hope to see you in the Minors Thread again.
THEBOSS84
11-15-07, 01:02 PM
Had to change my avatar from the old boss to the new boss
I like Hank. And those offers to Mo and Jorge, and the 275+ million to A-Rod tell me that he will not be tight with the purse-strings. So he talks like his Dad, but if he is willing to spend like him, and, in addition, build the Minors, I like him a lot.
Hope he extends Cashman soon. For multi years.
Casey37
11-15-07, 01:04 PM
Had to change my avatar from the old boss to the new boss
There you go! :gulp:
Good to see you again. I have been missing your frequent comments on many subjects. Hope to see you in the Minors Thread again.Hello there! Yeah, I've been busy. Occupied with work. Hopefully, I'll get back to the minors forum soon, too.
OldYankeeFan
11-15-07, 01:14 PM
I like Hank. And those offers to Mo and Jorge, and the 275+ million to A-Rod tell me that he will not be tight with the purse-strings. So he talks like his Dad, but if he is willing to spend like him, and, in addition, build the Minors, I like him a lot.
Hope he extends Cashman soon. For multi years.
He deserves it, but I thought Cashman was against extensions. ;)
a-RobinsonCano-Fan
11-15-07, 03:32 PM
Wheres Hal in all this?
GraniteYankee
11-15-07, 03:43 PM
Stick to check writing and stay out of the media relations business and you will be OK, big fella.
Dannman103
11-15-07, 03:45 PM
Wheres Hal in all this?
I get the impression he's kind of the Fredo of the family
OldYankeeFan
11-15-07, 03:56 PM
Stick to check writing and stay out of the media relations business and you will be OK, big fella.
My guess is it will be an expensive lesson for him to learn and Mo is more than willing to teach. He'll learn.
Its like bizarro world today. Yankees do something absolutely idiotic by bending over for A-rod and the media is singing their praises.
Seriously.
And I for one have never understood the praise Senior gets from some fans. George Steinbrenner ruined more years for me as a Yankee fan ... (14 years). The CBS years were dark indeed, but they only lasted 8 yrs and I wasn't even born until 66 so I missed 'em. And even the early up Steinbrenner years (76-78) were unnecessarily exhausting. All that backpage drama gets old pretty quick - or do some Yankee fans enjoy these kinds of circuses?
IMO the only bad thing about being a Yankee fan has been George Steinbrenner. Given the size of the NY market and the team's rich history, you don't need to have overpay for every player or issue ridiculous press releases to keep the team rich and successful. Simply being smart will work - see the Dynasty years. I honestly never thought we'd win another WS with him at the helm, but the suspension took care of that. I've been counting the days until he'd be out of the picture, and too my deep disappointment, here come the Boys.
The more the Steinbrothers act like George, the more I can't stand them. As I posted in another thread, Hank is basically negotiating against himself, and doing it through the media. He's been handed a billion dollar business simply for being born and yet he insists on making life harder for his employees for no reason other than his own ego.
Hey Hank, sit back, relax, let the people you hire work hard to keep you rich and JUST SHUT UP AND SIGN THE CHECKS.
Claudell Washington
11-15-07, 04:05 PM
I get the impression he's kind of the Fredo of the family
That's funny. I had always gotten the impression that Hal is Michael and Hank is Sonny.
27IsNext
11-15-07, 04:08 PM
Although he hasn't really said anything that's off the mark, he needs to chill out. Let Cashman do the talking.
Dannman103
11-15-07, 04:10 PM
That's funny. I had always gotten the impression that Hal is Michael and Hank is Sonny.
Actually, that might be a better analogy...Hank the hothead, Hal more or less staying out of the "family business"...good call
BxBomber44
11-15-07, 04:11 PM
Hank The Tank Hank The Tank
get lowell at third for us
OldYankeeFan
11-18-07, 04:39 PM
Say what you want about Hank, looks like he's 4 for 4 with Mo ready to sign. I really don't know how much we over spent, only time will really tell. I'm just happy he is willing to spend, especially on our own and that it looks like he wants a championship in the final year of The Stadium.
Now how do we persuade Pettitte to return?
Young Steinbrenner
11-26-07, 04:06 PM
IMO the only bad thing about being a Yankee fan has been George Steinbrenner. Given the size of the NY market and the team's rich history, you don't need to have overpay for every player or issue ridiculous press releases to keep the team rich and successful. Simply being smart will work - see the Dynasty years. I honestly never thought we'd win another WS with him at the helm, but the suspension took care of that. I've been counting the days until he'd be out of the picture, and too my deep disappointment, here come the Boys.
That sounds kind of sinister...you've been counting the days until he'd be out of the picture?
Young Steinbrenner
11-26-07, 04:08 PM
Hank and Hal have Steinbrenner running through their veins. The team is in good hands.
OldYankeeFan
12-05-07, 05:42 PM
In rating the performance of Hank so far I only know the following to be true.
We signed A-Rod.
We signed Posada
We signed Rivera
We signed Pettitte
We were able to turn the page on Torre and sign Girardi without losing any of the above.
We did not sell the farm for the sake of a trade.
So far...so good.
Everyone in the media and fanbase has decided that Hank is the new Boss. Clearly he has been the most vocal. But wait a minute. According to Joel Sherman...
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/wm/archives/2007/12/payroll_concern.html
The return of Andy Pettitte made the Yankees more comfortable about walking away from trade discussions for Johan Santana. But one big reason they say why – believe it or not – is because of how uncomfortable it would have made them with their payroll.
“I know people don’t believe it, but we really can’t go to $230 or $240 million,” a Yankees official claimed. “We really do have a budget.”
Interestingly, Hank Steinbrenner has been the public voice of the Yankees this offseason, but the Steinbrenner child overseeing financial matters and holding a stricter line than his father George, is Hal Steinbrenner.So instead of obessessing over every little thing Hank says, let's talk about the guy who really holds the purse strings. How is Hal doing?
If this offseason is holding a stricter line... :eek:
xenadanielle
02-28-08, 03:07 PM
I did not see this anywhere else and was not sure if it was threadworthy on its own: a fairly long article that will be in this Sunday's NY Times "Play" magazine.
Oedipus Bronx
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/sports/playmagazine/02play-bronx.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
ETA: Just realized that the writer is "Ladies and Gentlemen the Bronx is Burning" author Jonathan Mahler.
Yankees13
02-28-08, 03:46 PM
I did not see this anywhere else and was not sure if it was threadworthy on its own: a fairly long article that will be in this Sunday's NY Times "Play" magazine.
Oedipus Bronx
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/sports/playmagazine/02play-bronx.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
ETA: Just realized that the writer is "Ladies and Gentlemen the Bronx is Burning" author Jonathan Mahler.
Fascinating article. Loved these two quotes:
"The Yankees are eight years removed from their last world championship, but it’s hard not to regard the new stadium, with its over-the-top evocation of Yankee mythology, as an in-your-face assertion of Yankee might, a pointed and — depending on your perspective — either desperate or reassuring reminder that the team is less a baseball club than an American institution. It will be Red Sox Nation’s version of hell."
“Red Sox Nation?” Hank says. “What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.”
I forgive you for all your asinine comments Hank. :D
DaSh 1s
02-28-08, 03:48 PM
Fascinating article. Loved these two quotes:
"The Yankees are eight years removed from their last world championship, but it’s hard not to regard the new stadium, with its over-the-top evocation of Yankee mythology, as an in-your-face assertion of Yankee might, a pointed and — depending on your perspective — either desperate or reassuring reminder that the team is less a baseball club than an American institution. It will be Red Sox Nation’s version of hell."
“Red Sox Nation?” Hank says. “What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.”
I forgive you for all your asinine comments Hank. :D
what a fool
PD McGee
02-28-08, 03:50 PM
Fascinating article. Loved these two quotes:
"The Yankees are eight years removed from their last world championship, but it’s hard not to regard the new stadium, with its over-the-top evocation of Yankee mythology, as an in-your-face assertion of Yankee might, a pointed and — depending on your perspective — either desperate or reassuring reminder that the team is less a baseball club than an American institution. It will be Red Sox Nation’s version of hell."
“Red Sox Nation?” Hank says. “What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.”
I forgive you for all your asinine comments Hank. :D
Fantastic article, love that quote from Hank!!!
That's the kind of attitude we need.
Yankees13
02-28-08, 03:52 PM
what a fool
Why? Nothing wrong with dissing the absurd notion of "Red Sox Nation" IMO.
JOBA RULES
02-28-08, 03:54 PM
Fascinating article. Loved these two quotes:
"The Yankees are eight years removed from their last world championship, but it’s hard not to regard the new stadium, with its over-the-top evocation of Yankee mythology, as an in-your-face assertion of Yankee might, a pointed and — depending on your perspective — either desperate or reassuring reminder that the team is less a baseball club than an American institution. It will be Red Sox Nation’s version of hell."
“Red Sox Nation?” Hank says. “What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.”
I forgive you for all your asinine comments Hank. :D
after reading that quote by hank i have the urge to stand up and clap lol...I couldnt of said it better myself
The dig at the Red Sox pushing 'RSN' was fine. The ESPN add-in made me roll my eyes.
Most of that article seemed like an attempt at spin/puff, but the lines about Hank and living up to his dad confirm what I've always suspected to be the reason for him being SO public and SO obsessed with pushing his supposed power -- he's got major daddy issues.
PD McGee
02-28-08, 04:03 PM
after reading that quote by hank i have the urge to stand up and clap lol...I couldnt of said it better myself
The kind of stuff that brings out a single tear of joy :D
This is what sports is all about.
OldYankeeFan
02-28-08, 04:08 PM
LOL. Got to love it. Hank just being Hank.
“Red Sox Nation?” Hank says. “What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.”
Finally, a statement from Prince Hank worthy of King George.
He should stick to big picture, motivational statements like this one, and begin to be more discreet about negotiations and potential transactions.
PD McGee
02-28-08, 04:11 PM
Finally, a statement from Prince Hank worthy of King George.
He should stick to big picture, motivational statements like this one, and begin to be more discreet about negotiations and potential transactions.
Something King George would never do ;)
justinvarnes
02-28-08, 04:31 PM
The funny thing is, Hank just says all the crap we would say here or to our friends. He's just like every other passionate Yankee fan.
I understand that can be construed as both good and bad, but it is what it is.
I for one like it. It has NO bearing anything on the field. Jeter can't say that, neither can A-Rod, but certainly Hank can. Let everyone else run the team quietly while Hank handles the media and gives them quotes for days.
He was at the wheel when we traded Torre for Girardi, replaced Guidry with Eiland, re-signed all the big names, and are starting the season with all our youngins and no big salary to be added (isn't that a 1st for this team??)
Seriously, how much better could have done? save some $ on the Mo and A-Rod deals? Sure, but isn't it HIS money? Doesn't he still have plenty of it left? Didn't he overpay for the best baseball player on the planet instead of overpaying for an aging veteran FA who is past his prime who has never played in the Bronx?
teknetic
02-28-08, 04:35 PM
That was probably the best thing he's said since taking over. Just hilarious.
yankeebot
02-28-08, 06:17 PM
I thought the best thing was confirmation that Hal has equal if not more say in what happens. Good to have some checks and balances.
THEBOSS84
02-28-08, 06:21 PM
There is an article on Hank in this week's ESPN mag - I will read it soon.
DisabledMess
02-28-08, 06:49 PM
The funny thing is, Hank just says all the crap we would say here or to our friends. He's just like every other passionate Yankee fan.
I understand that can be construed as both good and bad, but it is what it is.
I for one like it. It has NO bearing anything on the field. Jeter can't say that, neither can A-Rod, but certainly Hank can. Let everyone else run the team quietly while Hank handles the media and gives them quotes for days.
He was at the wheel when we traded Torre for Girardi, replaced Guidry with Eiland, re-signed all the big names, and are starting the season with all our youngins and no big salary to be added (isn't that a 1st for this team??)
Seriously, how much better could have done? save some $ on the Mo and A-Rod deals? Sure, but isn't it HIS money? Doesn't he still have plenty of it left? Didn't he overpay for the best baseball player on the planet instead of overpaying for an aging veteran FA who is past his prime who has never played in the Bronx?
Couldn't of said it better myself. This is New York. New York is for big names and big stars and we need a big owner. It's great PR and he's anti Red Sox which is ok with me. I think of Hal as Michael Corleone when Michael took the reins from his father and Hank as Sonny as well. I love the Godfather. Probably my favorite movie ever.
PD McGee
02-28-08, 07:55 PM
Couldn't of said it better myself. This is New York. New York is for big names and big stars and we need a big owner. It's great PR and he's anti Red Sox which is ok with me. I think of Hal as Michael Corleone when Michael took the reins from his father and Hank as Sonny as well. I love the Godfather. Probably my favorite movie ever.
Exactly. When I was reading the NY Times article, I was thinking 'The Godfather' the whole way.
sweet_lou_14
02-28-08, 08:25 PM
Hank drives me nuts but I simply can't get angry at him for saying what we all want to say about the nonsense that is "Red Sox Nation."
The Q Bomb
02-28-08, 08:25 PM
...“Red Sox Nation?” Hank says. “What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.”
I was actually going to post, "I didn't know Hank performed." but then I read the remarks above and applauded instead. I will never say another unkind word about you, Hank. (OK, replace "never" with "for the next week".) I have always said, this Red Sox Nation business is a calculated marketing scheme to eat into the Yankee mania of the late 90s and early 00s. Unfortunately, it's been rather successful as, like it or not, the hideous Red Sox hats, are far more prevalent than ever, and that heinous organization is referenced more than ever. You also see Red Sox fans popping up everywhere from Jeopardy to Wheel of Fortune. Be that as it may, their manfactured popularity will never match The Yankee's popularity (at least hopefully it won't).
I often rail at Hank's indiscretion but the same psyche that causes that indiscretion also allows him to speak his mind and call a spade a spade. Bravo, Hank, for exposing the ESPN/Red Sox Nation collusion. I'll take "The Evil Empire" any day!
TheInfallibleOne
02-28-08, 08:27 PM
Fascinating article. Loved these two quotes:
"The Yankees are eight years removed from their last world championship, but it’s hard not to regard the new stadium, with its over-the-top evocation of Yankee mythology, as an in-your-face assertion of Yankee might, a pointed and — depending on your perspective — either desperate or reassuring reminder that the team is less a baseball club than an American institution. It will be Red Sox Nation’s version of hell."
“Red Sox Nation?” Hank says. “What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.”
I forgive you for all your asinine comments Hank. :D
Love the quote, but I'm worried that Hal may want to take the Twins/Royals approach to running the team whereas Hank wants to take the Steinbrenner approach.
I think Hank is coming to this board and copying what comes from some of our posts, especially the RSN BS. I do love the part about restoring the universe to order...it implies that a Sox chamionship is Chaos, which it really is.
Love the quote, but I'm worried that Hal may want to take the Twins/Royals approach to running the team whereas Hank wants to take the Steinbrenner approach.
I think Hank is coming to this board and copying what comes from some of our posts, especially the RSN BS. I do love the part about restoring the universe to order...it implies that a Sox chamionship is Chaos, which it really is.
This is a good point: The Sox are merely obeying the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Entropy is on our side. :)
TheInfallibleOne
02-28-08, 08:38 PM
This is a good point: The Sox are merely obeying the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Entropy is on our side. :)
Take all the Entropy you want, we have a Big 3, Arod, and Jeter. That beats the house...
Take all the Entropy you want, we have a Big 3, Arod, and Jeter. That beats the house...
Well, we'll see. Can't fight the Law.
TheInfallibleOne
02-28-08, 08:43 PM
Well, we'll see. Can't fight the Law.
Were the Yankees. We dont BELIEVE in laws....
After reading the article, I gained even more respect for Hal.
frostdude1
02-29-08, 01:00 AM
“Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.” - Hank Muthaf***in Steinbrenner (Source)
I think I just came :eek:
TheoShmeo
02-29-08, 10:46 AM
“Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of [expletive] that is. That was a creation of the Red Sox and ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans. Go anywhere in America and you won’t see Red Sox hats and jackets, you’ll see Yankee hats and jackets. This is a Yankee country. We’re going to put the Yankees back on top and restore the universe to order.” - Hank Muthaf***in Steinbrenner (Source)
I think I just came :eek:
While that wasn't my exact reaction, it's perhaps odd that Sox and Yankees fans enjoy Hank's pronouncements almost equally, though from very different perspectives.
Yankeeah
02-29-08, 11:53 AM
I like what he said, because it's mostly true. However, you tend to find more hats/jackets/shirts of the team that just won the WS. Remember all the White Sox hats a few years ago?
justinvarnes
02-29-08, 12:03 PM
I like what he said, because it's mostly true. However, you tend to find more hats/jackets/shirts of the team that just won the WS. Remember all the White Sox hats a few years ago?
Exactly. Same with the Braves in the 90's.
In a weird way, I always like seeing folks proudly wear KC hats and SD hats. Anyone proudly diplaying their team with no reason to bandwagon is cool, in my eyes.
ESPN, which is filled with Red Sox fans.
ESPN is so full of Red Sox fans that Buster Olney was just on TV talking about how underrated the Yankees might be right now, how they could be better this year than they were the second half of last year, how great their offense is and how there is at least more talent in the rotation than there was.
Such bias.
ESPN is so full of Red Sox fans that Buster Olney was just on TV talking about how underrated the Yankees might be right now, how they could be better this year than they were the second half of last year, how great their offense is and how there is at least more talent in the rotation than there was.
Such bias.
Well, he could have declared them the team to beat if he wasn't such a Sox homer. :D
That being said, if he said they could be better than they were in the second half of last season, that might make them the team to beat. They were the best team in baseball over that span... so that's high praise.
I'm not sure I'd predict the Yankees to be better than that run, but I'd be surprised if they weren't right there in the division hunt all season. I'm as excited about the Red Sox as I've ever been coming into a season, but I'm not about to take my eyes off the Yankees. I don't think many Sox fans are thinking differently.
As for Hank's statements about Red Sox Nation... While I completely understand Yankees fans being excited and entertained by having an owner who is obviously a big fan of the team he owns, and gets wrapped up in the rivalry just like we all do, his statements really just aren't true.
First of all, if you look around the country, you very well will see a lot of Red Sox hats and jackets. You'll see Red Sox bars. You'll see Red Sox fans filling up stadiums when the team travels. The fandom is absolutely a national phenomenon right now.
And of course it's due, at least in part, to winning. That's how it works. When you win, people like you. Which brings me to my next point.
How does Hank think the Yankees became a nationally followed team? They won... a lot. This certainly was a Yankees country up until a few years ago. But it got to be that way because the Yankees were doing what the Sox have done in the last 4 years. They were winning.
Personally, I'm going to enjoy seeing each team have ownership in place that will get into the rivalry just like the fans do. It makes for some great moments, and if nothing else, it gives us something to talk about here on our message board forums. So with that in mind, I hope Hank keeps talking, and I hope the Sox respond. (I'm looking at you, Lucky Larry.)
Its called trash-talking/hyperbole, I don't think anybody took him literally
Hank is very much a big teenager with a lot of money. He shoves his foot in his mouth pretty often and I'm glad he doesn't have exclusive control over anything.
The Yankees are more widely known and followed but that probably has more to do with their association with New York City than their recent performance.
CyYoung4Vazquez
02-29-08, 01:34 PM
At the end of the day, baseball is a game. I like Hank. He makes things fun. I think the Yankee following is more about their history rather than location.
Hank is very much a big teenager with a lot of money. He shoves his foot in his mouth pretty often and I'm glad he doesn't have exclusive control over anything.
The Yankees are more widely known and followed but that probably has more to do with their association with New York City than their recent performance.
An article from 2007:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/24/AR2007062401297_pf.html
New York Yankees at Baltimore. The Yankees have been supplanted by the Red Sox as MLB road attendance leaders, but they will still have plenty of fans in the stands for this three-game series. [7 p.m. MASN, WJZ-13]
An article from 2005:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/sports/baseball/05attendance.html
The Red Sox (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/bostonredsox/index.html?inline=nyt-org) are baseball's biggest roadside attraction. On its tour through 12 cities, the self-styled posse of scruffy idiots is leading Major League Baseball in road attendance, a category the Yankees (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/newyorkyankees/index.html?inline=nyt-org) have won the last three seasons.
An article from 2007:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/redsox/2007-08-22-Roadattendance_N.htm
These days, the Red Sox are learning that it's not always easy being the biggest attraction in baseball. For much of this decade, that honor — and all the hype and scrutiny it brings — has gone to their archrival, the New York Yankees. But in two of the three seasons since the Red Sox ended an 86-year drought and won the World Series in 2004, the fan base known as Red Sox Nation has grown into its name: No one, including the hallowed Yankees, plays to bigger crowds on the road.
The Yankees aren't the most widely followed team right now if road attendance means anything. For 2 of the last 3 years it's been the Sox, and if winning has anything to do with national fandom, that will likely continue in 2008.
In Mo I Trust
02-29-08, 01:48 PM
The Yankees aren't the most widely followed team right now if road attendance means anything. For 2 of the last 3 years it's been the Sox, and if winning has anything to do with national fandom, that will likely continue in 2008.
I'm sure you're aware of this but that is extremely misleading because of the capacities of Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park. In those calculations the Yankees are hurt by having to play 9 or 10 games a year in front of 36,000 or so in Fenway whereas when the Red Sox get to play the same amount of games in front of 57,000 in New York. When you take out the Yankees/Red Sox games the Yankees have the best road attendance numbers.
I'm sure you're aware of this but that is extremely misleading because of the capacities of Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park. In those calculations the Yankees are hurt by having to play 9 or 10 games a year in front of 36,000 or so in Fenway whereas when the Red Sox get to play the same amount of games in front of 57,000 in New York. When you take out the Yankees/Red Sox games the Yankees have the best road attendance numbers.
Do you have any actual proof of this? Or are you just stating it hoping everyone will be lazy enough to just accept your claim? If you are basing this statement off of something other than an assumption, would you care to link to it?
Edit: Besides, if the Sox travel well enough to tip the scales in Yankee Stadium, I think that actually supports the contention that the Red Sox are the best road team in terms of attendance.
Snatch Catch
02-29-08, 01:51 PM
http://strikezonesandendzones.blogspot.com/2007/08/lots-of-room-for-you-on-red-sox.html
The Red Sox are averaging 38,802 fans in 64 road games
That's about 2,483,328 total fans
The total attendance for six Red Sox/Yankees affairs in the Bronx was 329,704
The Red Sox' total road attendance everywhere but the Bronx was 2,153,624
In those 58 games, the average attendance is 37,131.
The Yankees are averaging 37,906 fans in 62 road games
That's about 2,350,172 total fans
The total attendance for six Yankees/Red Sox affairs in Boston was 219,905
The Yankees' total road attendance everywhere but tiny and charming Fenway Park was 2,130,267
In those 56 games, the average attendance is 38,040
An article from 2007:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/24/AR2007062401297_pf.html
An article from 2005:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/sports/baseball/05attendance.html
An article from 2007:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/redsox/2007-08-22-Roadattendance_N.htm
The Yankees aren't the most widely followed team right now if road attendance means anything. For 2 of the last 3 years it's been the Sox, and if winning has anything to do with national fandom, that will likely continue in 2008.
I expected you would dig a little deeper on this issue. One of the big reasons the BoSox have such high road attendence is the fact that their home stadium is so small and expensive and 3 of their 4 divisional opponents are within driving distance.
The Red Wings have the greatest road attendence figures in the NHL not because America loves them but because they want to see their hometeam face-off against a team that has been excellent for most of the decade.
The NYC area has 18 million people and there are large communities of former New Yorkers in every part of America. One can't really argue with the raw numbers.
I'm sure you're aware of this but that is extremely misleading because of the capacities of Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park. In those calculations the Yankees are hurt by having to play 9 or 10 games a year in front of 36,000 or so in Fenway whereas when the Red Sox get to play the same amount of games in front of 57,000 in New York. When you take out the Yankees/Red Sox games the Yankees have the best road attendance numbers.
This is clearly true. It's a near thing, but the Yankees are still the better road draw.
http://strikezonesandendzones.blogspot.com/2007/08/lots-of-room-for-you-on-red-sox.html
I don't see why we should exclude Sox and Yanks games from the discussion though. If the Sox travel well into YOUR stadium, that's an indication of how they travel, and thus should be included. If you can't travel well enough to Fenway to make up for some of the difference in total capacity between the two parks, that's an indication of how you travel.
You can cherry pick stats if you want, but the Sox traveled better than the Yanks in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
CyYoung4Vazquez
02-29-08, 02:00 PM
Heh? Fenway is tiny. The Yankees play 8-9 games there each year. Thus the stats...The only reason the Red Sox fan can "travel" to Yankee stadium is the stadium is almost twice the size of your dump.
I don't see why we should exclude Sox and Yanks games from the discussion though. If the Sox travel well into YOUR stadium, that's an indication of how they travel, and thus should be included. If you can't travel well enough to Fenway to make up for some of the difference in total capacity between the two parks, that's an indication of how you travel.
You can cherry pick stats if you want, but the Sox traveled better than the Yanks in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
I don't see why we should exclude Sox and Yanks games from the discussion though. If the Sox travel well into YOUR stadium, that's an indication of how they travel, and thus should be included. If you can't travel well enough to Fenway to make up for some of the difference in total capacity between the two parks, that's an indication of how you travel.
You can cherry pick stats if you want, but the Sox traveled better than the Yanks in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
It isn't a matter of 'traveling well'. They don't check for affiliation at the door. There is no shame in admitting you brought up flawed data.
I expected you would dig a little deeper on this issue. One of the big reasons the BoSox have such high road attendence is the fact that their home stadium is so small and expensive and 3 of their 4 divisional opponents are within driving distance.
The Red Wings have the greatest road attendence figures in the NHL not because America loves them but because they want to see their hometeam face-off against a team that has been excellent for most of the decade.
The NYC area has 18 million people and there are large communities of former New Yorkers in every part of America.
So the reason why a team travels well has to be factored in here? Only teams that travel well because of reasons you deem to be acceptable are considered? Sorry, this doesn't pass the sniff test.
And if the Sox have 3 of 4 divisional rivals within driving distance, then so do the Yankees. When you consider the 18 million population in New York that you refer to and the mass of Yankees fans in most communities, then you would expect to see a similar or greater road presence for the Yankees.
yankeegeek
02-29-08, 02:00 PM
I love Hank!
Snatch Catch
02-29-08, 02:01 PM
I don't see why we should exclude Sox and Yanks games from the discussion though. If the Sox travel well into YOUR stadium, that's an indication of how they travel, and thus should be included. If you can't travel well enough to Fenway to make up for some of the difference in total capacity between the two parks, that's an indication of how you travel.
You can cherry pick stats if you want, but the Sox traveled better than the Yanks in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
:lol: You're a hot mess.
Edit: Besides, if the Sox travel well enough to tip the scales in Yankee Stadium, I think that actually supports the contention that the Red Sox are the best road team in terms of attendance.
The Yankees don't get 56,000 at home against Boston because Sox fans "travel well", the Yankees get those numbers because they average 52,000+ EVERY home game.
You have it backwards. The Sox are the ones who benefit by playing at Yankee Stadium. The Yankees only see a very marginal benefit -- if any at all -- when the Sox are in NY, and their road numbers suffer by comparison only because Fenway is a miniature MLB stadium.
So the reason why a team travels well has to be factored in here? Only teams that travel well because of reasons you deem to be acceptable are considered? Sorry, this doesn't pass the sniff test.
And if the Sox have 3 of 4 divisional rivals within driving distance, then so do the Yankees. When you consider the 18 million population in New York that you refer to and the mass of Yankees fans in most communities, then you would expect to see a similar or greater road presence for the Yankees.
But we don't need to travel to Baltimore to find affordable seats. Our stadium holds 55,000, not 37,000.
I don't see why we should exclude Sox and Yanks games from the discussion though. If the Sox travel well into YOUR stadium, that's an indication of how they travel, and thus should be included. If you can't travel well enough to Fenway to make up for some of the difference in total capacity between the two parks, that's an indication of how you travel.
You can cherry pick stats if you want, but the Sox traveled better than the Yanks in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
You honestly can't see the advantage here?!?! Yankees sell out Fenway...they get 38,000 Road attendance...Sox sell out Yankees stadium they get 55,000 road attendance. Sox are handicapped by their diminutive stadium.
Heh? Fenway is tiny. The Yankees play 8-9 games there each year. Thus the stats...The only reason the Red Sox fan can "travel" to Yankee stadium is the stadium is almost twice the size of your dump.
Can we talk about class next? Please? I mean, comparing the "quality" of stadiums is such a great way discuss national fandom. Really. The stats some of you are clinging to don't make sense, since I still don't see a valid reason why Sox and Yanks games shouldn't be included when talking about how the teams travel.
Until someone can explain why the fact that Sox fans travel well to the Bronx and Yankees fans don't travel as well to Fenway shouldn't be included in a discussion of national fandom, I don't recognize these numbers as being irrelevant to the discussion.
It isn't a matter of 'traveling well'. They don't check for affiliation at the door. There is no shame in admitting you brought up flawed data.
I brought up data to support my claim. All I've recieved in response is cherry picked numebrs to try and debunk that data. It seems that the teams are close to even when travelling to other parks around the league. So why should the fact that the Sox travel well enough to your own home stadium to tip the scales in their favor work against them?
In Mo I Trust
02-29-08, 02:07 PM
If you can't travel well enough to Fenway to make up for some of the difference in total capacity between the two parks, that's an indication of how you travel.
What does this mean? Every team travels just as well to Fenway, because the park is tiny and always sold out.
It is simplistic to not take into account the relative capacities of Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park when looking at road attendance data. Should we complement the Devil Ray fans for how well they travel to Fenway? Fenway Park has been full for every Devil Ray game over the past several years.
I don't see why we should exclude Sox and Yanks games from the discussion though. If the Sox travel well into YOUR stadium, that's an indication of how they travel, and thus should be included. If you can't travel well enough to Fenway to make up for some of the difference in total capacity between the two parks, that's an indication of how you travel.
You can cherry pick stats if you want, but the Sox traveled better than the Yanks in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
Seriously this is an idiotic argument. Not only are you wrong, but you challenge a bunch of Yankee fans on a technicality and you are overanalyzing the comments of someone who doesn't usually speak the truth
The Yankees and Sox sell out EVERY game at their stadiums, so of course you would discount it because it has nothing to do with road draw and everything to do with their own rabid fanbases. You are wrong
In Mo I Trust
02-29-08, 02:12 PM
Until someone can explain why the fact that Sox fans travel well to the Bronx and Yankees fans don't travel as well to Fenway shouldn't be included in a discussion of national fandom, I don't recognize these numbers as being irrelevant to the discussion.
Every Red Sox Yankees game at Fenway is sold out, so aren't they travelling just as well?
The breakdown of the crowd isn't more skewed towards Yankee fans because you have to sit in a virtual waiting room for hour after winning a lottery to buy tickets. The cheapest tickets for Yankee games in Fenway are over $100. It doesn't make much sense for a Yankee fan to pay that when Yankees/Red Sox tickets in the Bronx are much cheaper and easier to come by because the stadium is much larger. Basic supply and demand.
Until someone can explain why the fact that Sox fans travel well to the Bronx and Yankees fans don't travel as well to Fenway, I don't recognize these numbers as being irrelevant to the discussion.
What is so hard to understand?
All other road trips being equal, if Team A travels 9 times a year to Team B's 50,000 stadium, and Team B travels 9 times a year to Team A's 30,000 stadium, then Team A inherently has a 20,000 road attendance advantage per game over Team B.
Normalizing the discrepancy by removing those unequally weighted stadiums and looking at how well each team travels everywhere else, the Yankees have the better road attendance.
Put another way, if Fenway had 56,000 seats, rest assured every game against the Yankees would be a sell-out. Just ask Baltimore how well Yankees fan travel.
I find it interesting that the mere thought that the Yankees aren't the best travelling team in baseball can invoke such a ................ storm so quickly. Really, you guys are too sensitive.
Besides, either way... whether you exclude games in Yankee Stadium and Fenway or not... Hank's statements quoted above are proven false.
I find it interesting that the mere thought that the Yankees aren't the best travelling team in baseball can invoke such a ................ storm so quickly. Really, you guys are too sensitive.
Besides, either way... whether you exclude games in Yankee Stadium and Fenway or not... Hank's statements quoted above are proven false.
Actually, I think it proves your statements false, but who's counting?
I find it interesting that the mere thought that the Yankees aren't the best travelling team in baseball can invoke such a ................ storm so quickly. Really, you guys are too sensitive.
Besides, either way... whether you exclude games in Yankee Stadium and Fenway or not... Hank's statements quoted above are proven false.
Wow, what a graceful admittance of being wrong. I think a worthy task for you would be to analyze every Hank Steinbrenner statement of the past few months for literal factuality
Until someone can explain why the fact that Sox fans travel well to the Bronx and Yankees fans don't travel as well to Fenway shouldn't be included in a discussion of national fandom, I don't recognize these numbers as being irrelevant to the discussion.
There is a smaller number of Yankees fans at Fenway because there are 20,000 less chances to get in. Where would the 20,000 Yankees fans who would love to see their team play at Fenway sit?
Build a real park and they will come.
TheoShmeo
02-29-08, 02:20 PM
This whole argument is silly.
The fact of the matter is that both NY and Boston are great road draws A difference of a 1000 or so fans per game doesn't prove much in either direction. There are many other indicators -- such as merchandise sales, TV ratings and other things that I'm missing at the moment -- in determining which team is more popular nationwide, even assuming that is relevant in the first place.
Undoubtedly, both teams have huge national followings. Since the Sox have won two of the last four WS titles, it also stands to reason that they have relatively more fans nationwide than they had before 2004. The same held true for the Yankees after their run in the late 90s.
Hank can huff and puff as much as he wants about what team is more popular but his views on that wont make either team more or less likely to win on the field, and winning on the field will have the biggest impact on their relative popularity going forward.
I find it interesting that the mere thought that the Yankees aren't the best travelling team in baseball can invoke such a ................ storm so quickly. Really, you guys are too sensitive.
I find it interesting that a Red Sox fan refuses to admit he is arguing a non-sensical position, and then pokes at everyone who shows him why he is wrong. Especially in the Inside The Lines forum.
There is a name for that kind of poster, and they don't last long here.
Wow, what a graceful admittance of being wrong. I think a worthy task for you would be to analyze every Hank Steinbrenner statement of the past few months for literal factuality
Yes, because taking a deeper look at one statment is only valid if I go back and take an equally deep look at them all.
Hank stuck his foot in his mouth. People here applauded him for it. Apparently having a differing opinion about his statements isn't allowed.
/shrug
This whole argument is silly.
Hank can huff and puff as much as he wants about what team is more popular but his views on that wont make either team more or less likely to win on the field, and winning on the field will have the biggest impact on their relative popularity going forward.
Double agreed
In Mo I Trust
02-29-08, 02:22 PM
I find it interesting that the mere thought that the Yankees aren't the best travelling team in baseball can invoke such a ................ storm so quickly. Really, you guys are too sensitive.
Besides, either way... whether you exclude games in Yankee Stadium and Fenway or not... Hank's statements quoted above are proven false.
Statistics without context aren't worth much. It turns out the Yankees, Blue Jays, Orioles, and Devil Rays have travelled at the same rate to Fenway Park the past few years. Shame on us Yankee fans!
I find it interesting that a Red Sox fan refuses to admit he is arguing a non-sensical position, and then pokes at everyone who shows him why he is wrong. Especially in the Inside The Lines forum.
There is a name for that kind of poster, and they don't last long here.
Well, we got pulled off task in that discussion. It was a tangent that did nothing aside from add proof to my original contention that Hank is wrong when he says you don't see Sox hats and jackets when you travel around the country.
Did I get caught up in the sudden onslaught of posters that jumped at me? Yeah. It happens. But again, what you guys posted did nothing but strengthen my original point.
Hank was flat out wrong. You guys want to focus on something else and ignore that, feel free. Doesn't change the fact that he stuck his foot in his mouth again.
And since when does disagreeing with the status quo = provoking? Oh, wait... that's right, I wear a B on my cap. I'm not allowed to disagree with Yankees fans here.
People here applauded him for it.
You don't seem to get too much. People applauded Hank because they are YANKEE fans who think his Red Sox trashtalk is entertaining because it pokes at Red Sox Nation... not because they think he spoke the literal truth.
Do you know what hyperbole is? I think we know that some people own Red Sox jackets
Then you come and challenge the literal truthfullness, which noone even claimed in the first place, but somehow you manage to pick a point that actually WAS true. Yet when you are proven wrong, you keep going, instead of admitting to facts which was your ENTIRE RATIONALE for starting the debate. Thats why people responded
Well, we got pulled off task in that discussion. It was a tangent that did nothing aside from add proof to my original contention that Hank is wrong when he says you don't see Sox hats and jackets when you travel around the country.
Did I get caught up in the sudden onslaught of posters that jumped at me? Yeah. It happens. But again, what you guys posted did nothing but strengthen my original point.
Hank was flat out wrong. You guys want to focus on something else and ignore that, feel free. Doesn't change the fact that he stuck his foot in his mouth again.
And since when does disagreeing with the status quo = provoking? Oh, wait... that's right, I wear a B on my cap. I'm not allowed to disagree with Yankees fans here.
Theo disagrees with us quite a lot but he usually makes rational arguments. People who won't admit they are making flawed assumptions don't receive much sympathy.
Retire21
02-29-08, 02:28 PM
Lucen, isn't there a Red Sox board for you to post somewhere? Learn something from TheoSchmeo, who always seems to post politely and objectively on a Yankee board despite his allegiance to the Sox.
The difference between the two teams is negligible, as Theo said. If you run the numbers, I do believe the Yanks are still slightly a better road draw. There was an article about this in USA Today last season. But you know what? As a Yankee fan, who cares?
The fact that the Red Sox and Yankees are great road draws doesn't change the fact that every ballpark our fans fill on the road, the home team's fans still hate our teams.
Is Lucen gonna leave "for good" again cuz everyone is being mean to him?
Well, we got pulled off task in that discussion. It was a tangent that did nothing aside from add proof to my original contention that Hank is wrong when he says you don't see Sox hats and jackets when you travel around the country.
Did I get caught up in the sudden onslaught of posters that jumped at me? Yeah. It happens. But again, what you guys posted did nothing but strengthen my original point.
Hank was flat out wrong. You guys want to focus on something else and ignore that, feel free. Doesn't change the fact that he stuck his foot in his mouth again.
And since when does disagreeing with the status quo = provoking? Oh, wait... that's right, I wear a B on my cap. I'm not allowed to disagree with Yankees fans here.
Hey, I've been one of the loudest critics of Hank's mouth around here. But I really think you are the one being overly sensitive in this case.
Hank merely made a typically Steinbrenner-esque rah-rah statement. He sees the Sox as an insurgency and is merely rallying his troops to regain the glory of his father's previous empire.
As many stupid things he has said so far, this statement actually made me smile, and in the process obviously made Sox fans fume. Which is probably exactly the reaction he was looking for. Nothing more, nothing less.
And you are certainly allowed to disagree here. You just push the envelope when you continuously and contentiously refuse to acknowledge irrefutable data just because you don't want to accept what that data indicates.
You don't seem to get too much. People applauded Hank because they are YANKEE fans who think his Red Sox trashtalk is entertaining because it pokes at Red Sox Nation... not because they think he spoke the literal truth. Do you know what hyperbole is? I think we know that some people own Red Sox jackets
Then you come and challenge the literal truthfullness, which noone even claimed in the first place, but somehow you manage to pick a point that actually WAS true. Yet when you are proven wrong, you just act like a condescending douche instead of admitting to facts which was your ENTIRE RATIONALE for starting the debate. Thats why people responded
Actually, the basis for my entire rationale was that the Sox travel very well around the majors. While my position on Yankee Stadium vs Fenway was inaccurate, the discussion that surrounded that 100% supported my point that Hank was wrong when he said you don't see Sox hats and jackets around the country.
Had I been a Yankees fan making that point, the reaction wouldn't have been nearly as overwhelming. But there you have it. This is a Yankees site. That's what's going to happen when a Sox fan speaks up with an opinion that isn't popular.
Had I not been fielding responses to so many posters, I might have taken the time to realize I was misreading what was being said to me. But I'm not perfect. I overreacted to the sheer number of people responding to me. But I don't see anything in my responses that indicates I thought I was better than the posters I was responding to.
I think that might fall under that reference to hyperbole you used. :)
Is Lucen gonna leave "for good" again cuz everyone is being mean to him?
Actually, if you want to be technical, I was leaving because of certain people... some of which are no longer here...
TheoSchmeo, who always seems to post politely and objectively on a Yankee board despite his allegiance to the Sox.
.
hahahahahahahha
Retire21
02-29-08, 02:36 PM
I overreacted to the sheer number of people responding to me.
Well, let's not flatter ourselves here. Sheer number doesn't usually equal five posters.
my point that Hank was wrong when he said you don't see Sox hats and jackets around the country.
And once again, this is a silly thing to challenge because he's obviously exaggerating. I'm sure he can read Sox merchandise sales figures, and nobody here needed you to correct them and remind them that people own Sox stuff. It implies we are pretty stupid, and its annoying
Haha, I see you got my "condescending douche" part before I took it out. I shouldn't have said that, i didnt mean to personally insult you, but I do think you were acting condescending. Anyway, it happens
Hey, I've been one of the loudest critics of Hank's mouth around here. But I really think you are the one being overly sensitive in this case.
Hank merely made a typically Steinbrenner-esque rah-rah statement. He sees the Sox as an insurgency and is merely rallying his troops to regain the glory of his father's previous empire.
As many stupid things he has said so far, this statement actually made me smile, and in the process obviously made Sox fans fume. Which is probably exactly the reaction he was looking for. Nothing more, nothing less.
And you are certainly allowed to disagree here. You just push the envelope when you continuously and contentiously refuse to acknowledge irrefutable data just because you don't want to accept what that data indicates.
I don't see why it being a 'rah-rah' statement means I can't disagree with it. And I'm glad it made you smile. It should. I said as much in my first post on it. But the statement simply wasn't factually correct, and you shouldn't be surprised that there are people who would point that out. You also shouldn't be affronted by that.
So sorry if you feel I was "talking down" to anyone here. I obviously overreacted as the discussion moved on to the tangent about Yankee Stadium vs Fenway, but my initial point isn't inaccurate.
I don't see why it being a 'rah-rah' statement means I can't disagree with it.
"Damn I'm making a ton of money today!!"
Lucen please ask me to elaborate on whether or not I meant a large sum of money or a literal 2000 pounds of paper, just in case it isn't clear
And once again, this is a silly thing to challenge because he's obviously exaggerating. I'm sure he can read Sox merchandise sales figures, and nobody here needed you to correct them and remind them that people own Sox stuff. It implies we are pretty stupid, and its annoying
Haha, I see you got my "condescending douche" part before I took it out. I shouldn't have said that, i didnt mean to personally insult you, but I do think you were acting condescending. Anyway, it happens
I remember a lot of response to the "evil empire" line out of our camp. That was obviously hyperbole but it got a pretty strong reaction.
And look at that, I'm not the only one who posted something I shouldn't have today. :) No body's perfect, especially not me, heh.
"Damn I'm making a ton of money today!!"
Lucen please ask me to elaborate on whether or not I meant a large sum of money or a literal 2000 pounds of paper, just in case it isn't clear
Semantics... must be a slow news day. :)
Look, if you don't see the difference between your example and Hank's statement, I don't really have the desire to break it down for you. I think you do see the difference, though.
Look, good for you guys that your owner is as into this rivalry as we are. That's great, and there's nothing sarcastic about that statement for me. We have Lucchino and now you have Hank. Should be fun watching these two go back and forth.
But after the amount of attention some of Larry's comments have had here, can you really be surprised or affronted that Hank's words get similar attention from our side?
Semantics... must be a slow news day. :)
Look, if you don't see the difference between your example and Hank's statement, I don't really have the desire to break it down for you. I think you do see the difference, though.
Look, good for you guys that your owner is as into this rivalry as we are. That's great, and there's nothing sarcastic about that statement for me. We have Lucchino and now you have Hank. Should be fun watching these two go back and forth.
But after the amount of attention some of Larry's comments have had here, can you really be surprised or affronted that Hank's words get similar attention from our side?
The reason people got annoyed here is because its impossible to make even the smallest, simplest point to you without you quibbling about it. Whatever, I need to leave
The reason people got annoyed here is because its impossible to make even the smallest, simplest point to you without you quibbling about it. Whatever, I need to leave
To be fair, I didn't start overreacting until someone called Fenway a dump... doesn't justify me plugging up my ears and going "Nah nah nah!" but the discussion was pretty civil before that point.
TheoShmeo
02-29-08, 02:51 PM
As many stupid things he has said so far, this statement actually made me smile, and in the process obviously made Sox fans fume. Which is probably exactly the reaction he was looking for. Nothing more, nothing less.
Actually, I doubt many Sox fans are fuming about what Hank said.
I love that Hank is given to these kind of comments. Keep them coming, please.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 03:28 PM
The Yankees have always had a massive national following. Winning is a big part of it, but not in the same way it is for the Red Sox. The Yankees' following is based more on the tradition of winning, rather than the ebbs and flows of a given short time period. The Yankees have been the most popular team since the days of Ruth, and that kind of popularity will endure forever. The Red Sox's popularity is based on recent success and being the "it" team for whatever reason (now that I think about it, I understand now why 18-34 white males are the most desired target audience, look at what all the frat boys becoming Sox fans has done for their national profile). The Yankees have always had large pockets of fans in communities across the country, whether it was because there was no local team, there were a lot expatriate New Yorkers, or because a star Yankee player was from that area. The Red Sox, once the bandwagon subsides will return to being a parochial, regional team. They'll still be one of the more popular teams, because have a very large exclusive area to themselves, and New England is baseball country, but the hype around them right now is a result of bandwagoning.
DisabledMess
02-29-08, 03:31 PM
This is actually old news but it's a good read...
Hank Steinbrenner, in another outspoken moment (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3271124)
ESPN
Yankees13
02-29-08, 03:33 PM
Actually, I doubt many Sox fans are fuming about what Hank said.
I love that Hank is given to these kind of comments. Keep them coming, please.
Why exactly do you want him to keep them coming? Do you think it gives some sort of motivation to the Red Sox? He's attacking the media perception of the Red Sox, rather than the Red Sox themselves here. Even if he wasn't, do you think any Red Sox players give a damn?
TheoShmeo
02-29-08, 03:40 PM
Why exactly do you want him to keep them coming? Do you think it gives some sort of motivation to the Red Sox? He's attacking the media perception of the Red Sox, rather than the Red Sox themselves here. Even if he wasn't, do you think any Red Sox players give a damn?
It has nothing to do with motivation and I don't think the Sox players give a damn.
I just find Hank's comments, and the frequency with which he talks about the Sox, to be pretty amusing.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 03:42 PM
It has nothing to do with motivation and I don't think the Sox players give a damn.
I just find Hank's comments, and the frequency with which he talks about the Sox, to be pretty amusing.
What's so funny about them? And considering the number of interviews/quotes/statements he's given to the press since this past October, he's spent very little time talking about the Red Sox.
TheoShmeo
02-29-08, 03:45 PM
What's so funny about them? And considering the number of interviews/quotes/statements he's given to the press since this past October, he's spent very little time talking about the Red Sox.
Respectfully, with discretion sometimes being the better part of valor, I'm going to get off this particular bus before it crashes into an RO zone.
Luccino and Theo have been cranky about the Yankees for the past few years. It's nice to see Hank strike back and trash-talk a little bit. Nothing more, nothing less.
cupcollector99
02-29-08, 03:48 PM
reading Sox fans trying to spin out of the fact that the toilet in Fenway holds 20,000 fewer seats than the average high school field is amusing.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 03:48 PM
Respectfully, with discretion sometimes being the better part of valor, I'm going to get off this particular bus before it crashes into an RO zone.
Fair enough I suppose, but you must know if you make vague comments about the actions and words of Yankee executives, you're going to be asked to explain yourself.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 03:52 PM
Luccino and Theo have been cranky about the Yankees for the past few years. It's nice to see Hank strike back and trash-talk a little bit. Nothing more, nothing less.
Seriously, the Sox fans really can't say anything about owners/executives trash-talking. Just the other day we had Theo trashing Mussina and the Yankees over something trivial. Larry Luccihno is the master of the whining, arrogant, Napoleonic complex press release.
JeffWeaverFan
02-29-08, 03:53 PM
Actually, I doubt many Sox fans are fuming about what Hank said.
I love that Hank is given to these kind of comments. Keep them coming, please.
I guess it's similar to how I feel about Papelbon's comments.
I think we've really lost sight of what this is all about. That being the fact that the Yankees hat looks much better than the Red Sox hat.
TheoShmeo
02-29-08, 03:58 PM
Fair enough I suppose, but you must know if you make vague comments about the actions and words of Yankee executives, you're going to be asked to explain yourself.
My assessment of Hank and his commentary is exactly the same as the assessment of many (or some) Yankee fans who have commented about him on this site. The difference between me and them is that they wish that he'd shut up and I hope that he continues.
This came up because another poster wrote that Sox fans are probably "fuming" about Hank's comments and I wrote that, to the contrary, I think most of us are hoping that he continues unabated.
Putting all that aside, I think a little front office vitrol back and forth is fun for the fans and a good thing overall. The players are highly unlikely to provide any of that since most of them are friends or at least are very respectful of one another.
YESSIR!
02-29-08, 03:58 PM
I think we've really lost sight of what this is all about. That being the fact that the Yankees hat looks much better than the Red Sox hat.
Undeniable fact. We solved this bad boy, and we did it w/o the help of those meddling kids.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 04:14 PM
My assessment of Hank and his commentary is exactly the same as the assessment of many (or some) Yankee fans who have commented about him on this site. The difference between me and them is that they wish that he'd shut up and I hope that he continues.
This came up because another poster wrote that Sox fans are probably "fuming" about Hank's comments and I wrote that, to the contrary, I think most of us are hoping that he continues unabated.
Putting all that aside, I think a little front office vitrol back and forth is fun for the fans and a good thing overall. The players are highly unlikely to provide any of that since most of them are friends or at least are very respectful of one another.
Well that's an important distinction don't you think?
All I can say is I hope the Yankees live up to Hank's comments and I'd imagine Red Sox fans will no longer be eagerly awaiting Hank's statements.
I agree with you there. I feel the rivalry sometimes is just fluff created by media hype. Some animosity between the front offices will make things entertaining.
My assessment of Hank and his commentary is exactly the same as the assessment of many (or some) Yankee fans who have commented about him on this site. The difference between me and them is that they wish that he'd shut up and I hope that he continues.
This came up because another poster wrote that Sox fans are probably "fuming" about Hank's comments and I wrote that, to the contrary, I think most of us are hoping that he continues unabated.
Putting all that aside, I think a little front office vitrol back and forth is fun for the fans and a good thing overall. The players are highly unlikely to provide any of that since most of them are friends or at least are very respectful of one another.
http://bostondirtdogs.com/
Looks like some of your less articulate compatriots have taken the bait...
SoxFanInCali
02-29-08, 04:28 PM
A lot of you guys like Hank's comments because you're pumped up that he's willing to try to pump everyone up with a little trash talk, or because you associate an involved Steinbrenner with the run of titles in the late 90s. Some of you don't like them because you would rather just win on the field instead of the battle for headlines.
Some Sox fans want to trash Hank because they get hypersensitive about any perceived slight against the Sox. A lot of us enjoy him ranting becase it makes us think the Sox success is getting to him, or because we associate an involved Steinbrenner with the overpaid, underachieving Yankee teams between the 1981 and 1996 Series.
At least that's how I see it. In the grand scheme of things they'll make no difference in what happens on the field. It's just something to fill the time between now and the first Sox-Yanks game of the season.
And I'm pretty sure any reasonable fan of either team knows the Sox and Yanks are the 2 biggest road draws in baseball, and they both have nationwide fan bases. To suggest otherwise is just ignorant, or (like Hank) said for emotional effect.
http://bostondirtdogs.com/
Looks like some of your less articulate compatriots have taken the bait...
You had to whip out the trump card, didn't you? :)
He's a moron of the highest order. He led a "boo Pedro" campaign when the Mets came to Fenway... Not to mention, he promised to shut down his site if his "intel" that the Sox had an ARod deal done with Texas wasn't true... then pretended he didn't say it after.
I know none of that refutes your use of his reaction here, but I always feel like ranting when I see him doing his thing...
Yankees1962
02-29-08, 04:43 PM
A day late and a dollar short as usual, but Mike and the Mad Dog were reading Hank's quotes and loving it especially Francesca with emphasis placed on the "Red Sox Nation" being a bunch of XXXX started by the Red Sox and ESPN/NESN2.;)
b-ball-lunachick
02-29-08, 04:43 PM
Ugh..Hank needs to STFU...his comments and Hal's were just out of line..
I didn't mind how Hank handled the Santana stuff or Torre even..but he's now really crossing the line..
STFU and play the game and let the Red Sox do what they'll do...he's putting himself on Lucchino's level..blech!
Yankees1962
02-29-08, 04:48 PM
Ugh..Hank needs to STFU...his comments and Hal's were just out of line..
I didn't mind how Hank handled the Santana stuff or Torre even..but he's now really crossing the line..
STFU and play the game and let the Red Sox do what they'll do...he's putting himself on Lucchino's level..blech!
How is he crossing the line? His comments about the Red Sox don't effect anything.
"The Straw"
02-29-08, 04:56 PM
The Official Hank Steinbrenner Performance Thread
When Hank performs let me know :o In a complete jackass race he wins by a mile. Other than that his only performance has been spitting the Silver spoon out of his big mouth while spewing endless,mindless dribble.
An article from 2007:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/24/AR2007062401297_pf.html
An article from 2005:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/sports/baseball/05attendance.html
An article from 2007:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/redsox/2007-08-22-Roadattendance_N.htm
The Yankees aren't the most widely followed team right now if road attendance means anything. For 2 of the last 3 years it's been the Sox, and if winning has anything to do with national fandom, that will likely continue in 2008.
Are those figures adjusted for the disparity between the seating capacity of Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park?
SoxFanInCali
02-29-08, 05:00 PM
Are those figures adjusted for the disparity between the seating capacity of Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park?
Read ahead a few posts. Believe me, it's been covered.
Read ahead a few posts. Believe me, it's been covered.
OK, thanks. I don't always have time to read as many posts as I'd like.
dabomb2045
02-29-08, 05:02 PM
As long as he lets Hal and Cash run the show....Hank can say whatever the hell he wants. In fact, I love the digs at RSN :D
The Q Bomb
02-29-08, 05:18 PM
The Yankees have always had a massive national following. Winning is a big part of it, but not in the same way it is for the Red Sox. The Yankees' following is based more on the tradition of winning, rather than the ebbs and flows of a given short time period. The Yankees have been the most popular team since the days of Ruth, and that kind of popularity will endure forever. The Red Sox's popularity is based on recent success and being the "it" team for whatever reason (now that I think about it, I understand now why 18-34 white males are the most desired target audience, look at what all the frat boys becoming Sox fans has done for their national profile). The Yankees have always had large pockets of fans in communities across the country, whether it was because there was no local team, there were a lot expatriate New Yorkers, or because a star Yankee player was from that area. The Red Sox, once the bandwagon subsides will return to being a parochial, regional team. They'll still be one of the more popular teams, because have a very large exclusive area to themselves, and New England is baseball country, but the hype around them right now is a result of bandwagoning. Oh, yes, Professor Y13! Excellent, well-reasoned post. You make a lot of very good points. Very reassuring.
DisabledMess
02-29-08, 05:25 PM
Sox fans, you had it coming to you. You can't come to Yankee Universe(this forum) and think that you'll get the last word and prove Yankee fans wrong. It's not going to happen. Hank, in the spirit of Yankee fans, "denounced" Red Sox Nation. You're just going to have to sit back and take it. That's all you really can do.
Ugh..Hank needs to STFU...his comments and Hal's were just out of line..
It's not so much that they're out of line (the other stuff was far worse than this harmless nonsense), but it's that we're clearly becoming just like the Red Sox and their fans when we used to be at least a little above their level before.
In fact, I think we may very well be more obsessed with them, rooting against their failure or connecting our successes to their failure, than they are with us now and that's sad. :(
DisabledMess
02-29-08, 05:36 PM
I find it all in great fun. We need the Red Sox nation and they need us. It's the biggest rivalry in America, not sure about the world because of the soccer people but if we didn't have the Red Sox to root against, life and baseball would be boring.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 05:47 PM
Oh, yes, Professor Y13! Excellent, well-reasoned post. You make a lot of very good points. Very reassuring.
That's what I'm here for. :2thumbs:
Just saw Hanks latest on ESPN. Kinda funny but lets let the players take care of the rivalry rather than the front offices, and that goes for the Sox too.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 05:51 PM
In fact, I think we may very well be more obsessed with them, rooting against their failure or connecting our successes to their failure, than they are with us now and that's sad. :(
Immerse yourself in some sort of Red Sox community and see if you still think that. It's not even close. The nature of the relationship is such that it would take decades of Red Sox success at the expense of the Yankees before the relationship was inversed.
MassNYYfan
02-29-08, 05:52 PM
I really wish he'd shut up sometimes. Yeah, calling RSN a bunch of NE clam chowder is amusing, as is calling out ESPN. In the grand scheme, though, it serves no purpose and is just as idiotic to say in public as Trot Nixon's little rant about ARod being a clown.
Hank, STFU!
Sox fans, you had it coming to you. You can't come to Yankee Universe(this forum) and think that you'll get the last word and prove Yankee fans wrong. It's not going to happen. Hank, in the spirit of Yankee fans, "denounced" Red Sox Nation. You're just going to have to sit back and take it. That's all you really can do.
Mr. Mess is correct.
There is nothing that we Sox fans can do but take the jabs. All we can do is listen to Hank and grin and try to bear it. As the season progresses I just hope that all this abuse doesn't ruin our enjoyment as we watch the reigning World Champions of Baseball play out the 162 game string.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:04 PM
Mr. Mess is correct.
There is nothing that we Sox fans can do but take the jabs. All we can do is listen to Hank and grin and try to bear it. As the season progresses I just hope that all this abuse doesn't ruin our enjoyment as we watch the reigning World Champions of Baseball play out the 162 game string.
I'm sure when A-Rod tees off on Papelbon to win a game, and Hank goes ape sh*t in the press about it, the 07 WS will be a great comfort.
b-ball-lunachick
02-29-08, 06:06 PM
How is he crossing the line? His comments about the Red Sox don't effect anything.
He's just sinking to Lucchino's level..
SoxFanInCali
02-29-08, 06:07 PM
Immerse yourself in some sort of Red Sox community and see if you still think that. It's not even close. The nature of the relationship is such that it would take decades of Red Sox success at the expense of the Yankees before the relationship was inversed.
If you're a Yankee fan in Boston, you would say the Sox are obsessed with the Yankees.
If you're a Sox fan in New York you would say the Yankees are obsessed with the Sox.
Face it, both fan bases are obsessed with the other team. It's what being a hated rival is. There's a reason that Yankees fans rooted for the Cardinals in 2004 and the Rockies in 2007, just as we rooted for the D'Backs and Marlins. You chanted 1918 at us for years, we remind you it's 2-0 this century. Each fan base has some smart, articulate fans, and each side has some people that can't walk and chew gum at the same time. And the oldest, dumbest arguments that go on between the fan bases stems from one side laughing about the other over something, and not realizing they do the same thing when the roles are reversed.
And if you guys are anything like me, there's one overall reason you keep track of the other team and hope they lose, even if your team can't win it; so you take less crap the next time you see your friend that roots for the other side.
yankeebot
02-29-08, 06:10 PM
I'm sure when A-Rod tees off on Papelbon to win a game, and Hank goes ape sh*t in the press about it, the 07 WS will be a great comfort.
This kind of stuff makes me crazy. They are the 2007 WS champs. You don't "get even" with a regular season HR against their closer. Why pretend like that's all it takes? They have bragging rights. It's up to us to win them back. There's really not much satisfaction in anything else.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:12 PM
This kind of stuff makes me crazy. They are the 2007 WS champs. You don't "get even" with a regular season HR against their closer. Why pretend like that's all it takes? They have bragging rights. It's up to us to win them back. There's really not much satisfaction in anything else.
I'm saying that it's stupid to pretend that they won't be at least a little tweaked if Hank taunts them during the season, after something like that.
yankeebot
02-29-08, 06:15 PM
I'm saying that it's stupid to pretend that they won't be at least a little tweaked if Hank taunts them during the season, after something like that.
:dunno: I wouldn't be.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:15 PM
If you're a Yankee fan in Boston, you would say the Sox are obsessed with the Yankees.
If you're a Sox fan in New York you would say the Yankees are obsessed with the Sox.
Face it, both fan bases are obsessed with the other team. It's what being a hated rival is. There's a reason that Yankees fans rooted for the Cardinals in 2004 and the Rockies in 2007, just as we rooted for the D'Backs and Marlins. You chanted 1918 at us for years, we remind you it's 2-0 this century. Each fan base has some smart, articulate fans, and each side has some people that can't walk and chew gum at the same time. And the oldest, dumbest arguments that go on between the fan bases stems from one side laughing about the other over something, and not realizing they do the same thing when the roles are reversed.
And if you guys are anything like me, there's one overall reason you keep track of the other team and hope they lose, even if your team can't win it; so you take less crap the next time you see your friend that roots for the other side.
Sorry but the whole two sides of the same coin argument, as nice as it sounds, just doesn't fly. Because of the nature of the rivalry, Red Sox fans have a deeper obsession with the Yankees than the other way around. To say otherwise ignores what the relationship between these two teams has been for decades and the physiological impact of that relationship. It doesn't mean Red Sox fans are worse, just that they're different.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:19 PM
:dunno: I wouldn't be.
Alright let me paint a scenario then. It's late August, an A-Rod walkoff completes a 3 game sweep of the Red Sox, the Yankees led the division by 5 games. The Red Sox fall into 2nd in the wild card behind the Tigers. Hank starts crowing. You're telling me that Red Sox fans would just sit there smugly and happily and say "2007 CHAMPS!!!!11!!". This is a stupid argument anyway, it's not especially relevant to anything.
I'm sure when A-Rod tees off on Papelbon to win a game, and Hank goes ape sh*t in the press about it, the 07 WS will be a great comfort.
Interesting take given the number of signatures, screen names, T-shirts, etc that measure the yankee's worth by the number of rings the franchise has amassed. If those '30s titles are somehow relevant can you do me a solid and count 2007 as well?
Sox trade for Pedro.
Girardi brings back Zimmer.
Let the games begin.
Interesting take given the number of signatures, screen names, T-shirts, etc that measure the yankee's worth by the number of rings the franchise has amassed. If those '30s titles are somehow relevant can you do me a solid and count 2007 as well?You're not really going to start that argument are you? Frankly two rings in 4 years hardly makes up for the last near-century.
Hooligan Tavarez
02-29-08, 06:22 PM
He's just sinking to Lucchino's level..Hank redefined what a blabber-mouth is. He's like Schilling but he actually represents his team.
Ugh..Hank needs to STFU...his comments and Hal's were just out of line..
I didn't mind how Hank handled the Santana stuff or Torre even..but he's now really crossing the line..
STFU and play the game and let the Red Sox do what they'll do...he's putting himself on Lucchino's level..blech!I see it as just the opposite. I didn't like his comments on Torre/Mo or his public discussion/negotiation re: Santana. At first, I didn't like him popping off on the Sox either. But, if I have to pick a poison and he's going to do it he may as well go all out on that front. Rivalry switch is back in the on position.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:24 PM
Interesting take given the number of signatures, screen names, T-shirts, etc that measure the yankee's worth by the number of rings the franchise has amassed. If those '30s titles are somehow relevant can you do me a solid and count 2007 as well?
Quickly, before you're RO'ed, during the season, bragging rights are all about who's doing better at that point in time. Pointing out the Yankees' complete and utter historical superiority is a different sort of thing. Just thought I'd make that distinction for you.
Immerse yourself in some sort of Red Sox community and see if you still think that. It's not even close. The nature of the relationship is such that it would take decades of Red Sox success at the expense of the Yankees before the relationship was inversed.
You would think, but no. The fact that most Yankee fans refuse to see it and still are pretending they're not just as bad as the Sox fans now in many to most ways probably makes it worse.
(And I'm not excluding myself from this. I even ended up rooting for the Giants in the SB just because the thought of a Boston-area team winning another trophy sickened me and that comes directly from my Yankee fandom.)
You're not really going to start that argument are you? Frankly two rings in 4 years hardly makes up for the last near-century.
I said nothing of the sort. Someone stated that the 2007 title would offer little solace if the yankees win a game this season against the Red Sox. If you get to count 1937 I'd appreciate being able to count 2007.
roblyo33
02-29-08, 06:26 PM
I don't see why we should exclude Sox and Yanks games from the discussion though. If the Sox travel well into YOUR stadium, that's an indication of how they travel, and thus should be included. If you can't travel well enough to Fenway to make up for some of the difference in total capacity between the two parks, that's an indication of how you travel.
You can cherry pick stats if you want, but the Sox traveled better than the Yanks in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
You are making ZERO sense. Yankee fans can travel to Fenway and not get in.......why bother??? WE get 50K+ at every home home game whether it's the Sux or the Royals.
Sorry but the whole two sides of the same coin argument, as nice as it sounds, just doesn't fly. Because of the nature of the rivalry, Red Sox fans have a deeper obsession with the Yankees than the other way around. To say otherwise ignores what the relationship between these two teams has been for decades and the physiological impact of that relationship. It doesn't mean Red Sox fans are worse, just that they're different.
How things were does not trump how things are. For a long time, the Red Sox world revolved around the Yankees. That simply isn't the case anymore. Is there a lot of attention that both sides pay to the other? Yeah, of course. The media won't let that stop. But your assertion that Sox fans being obsessed with the Yankees in the past means it must still be that way doesn't fly.
Quickly, before you're RO'ed, during the season, bragging rights are all about who's doing better at that point in time. Pointing out the Yankees' complete and utter historical superiority is a different sort of thing. Just thought I'd make that distinction for you.
Please explain how?
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:30 PM
You would think, but no.
The fact that most Yankee fans refuse to see it and still are pretending they're not just as bad as the Sox fans now in many to most probably makes it worse.
(And I'm not excluding myself from this. I even ended up rooting for the Giants in the SB just because the thought of a Boston-area team winning another trophy sickened me and that comes directly from my Yankee fandom.)
I really don't think so, and I'm saying that without bias, because I don't think being obsessed with your rival is an awful thing. I think you're severely underestimating how obsessed Red Sox fans are with the Yankees. I'm sure I don't need to go into exact details. Yankee fans are only concerned with the Red Sox to the extent they're in our way. In the late 90s, no one gave a damn about them (with the exception of 99 obviously).
Please explain how?
Sounds like he's arguing the Yankees get to fall back on history because they've won more championships than anyone else. But no one else can because... the Yankees have won more championships than anyone else.
SoxFanInCali
02-29-08, 06:31 PM
Sorry but the whole two sides of the same coin argument, as nice as it sounds, just doesn't fly. Because of the nature of the rivalry, Red Sox fans have a deeper obsession with the Yankees than the other way around. To say otherwise ignores what the relationship between these two teams has been for decades and the physiological impact of that relationship. It doesn't mean Red Sox fans are worse, just that they're different.
I can admit that prior to 2004, I'm sure I gave more thought about the Yankees than you gave about the Red Sox, but I'm not talking about the history of the rivalry, I'm talking about right now, present day.. Going forward, Yankees fans know that they have to beat the Red Sox to have a chance of winning a title, and we know the same about you. So I'd say it's pretty equal how much thought each side is giving the other.
And remember, the thing you had over us prior to 2004 was all the Curse BS. It was the fact that we hadn't won, and hadn't beaten you in any kind of meaningful matchup. As far as I'm concerned, 2004 erased that. You guys can say '26 rings' all you want now, it honestly doesn't bother me at all. And for a lot of Yankee fans (not saying all, but definitely some), the fact that you can't chant 1918 anymore or tell Red Sox fans "At least we've won it before" like you did after the Florida loss bugs them.
Go back a century, you guys dominated. Go back the last few years, we have. Going forward, there's not a thing a Yankee fan can say that would make me think we don't have as good (or better) chance of winning our next ring before you guys.
I know I'm not going to change your mind, and that I'm a Sox fan on a Yankee board, just putting my thoughts out there. But I really think you're overestimating how much we still think about you guys. 26-7 is still more titles, but it was never about that, it was about us never even seeing 1. 2004 changed that, and 2007 made it even clearer.
I said nothing of the sort. Someone stated that the 2007 title would offer little solace if the yankees win a game this season against the Red Sox. If you get to count 1937 I'd appreciate being able to count 2007.The Yankees have won a few if memory serves since '37. They typically don't have 86 year dry spells. But whatever. And frankly 2000 was of little solace to me when we lost in game 7 in 2001 and during the Sox WS championships. I think the original poster was correct that the scenario outlined would be of limited solace to RSN. You bringing up 1937 as if it's some kind of balancing commentary isn't becoming of your team's track record.
I can admit that prior to 2004, I'm sure I gave more thought about the Yankees than you gave about the Red Sox, but I'm not talking about the history of the rivalry, I'm talking about right now, present day.. Going forward, Yankees fans know that they have to beat the Red Sox to have a chance of winning a titleWe knew that before. Boston has been our primary rival for ages.
Go back a century, you guys dominated. Go back the last few years, we have. Going forward, there's not a thing a Yankee fan can say that would make me think we don't have as good (or better) chance of winning our next ring before you guys.Two in four is a nice run, but let's expand that filter a bit. 2 in 90? Not so much. A ring in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's might have been a nice touch.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:38 PM
How things were does not trump how things are. For a long time, the Red Sox world revolved around the Yankees. That simply isn't the case anymore. Is there a lot of attention that both sides pay to the other? Yeah, of course. The media won't let that stop. But your assertion that Sox fans being obsessed with the Yankees in the past means it must still be that way doesn't fly.
Yes it still does, and I really don't see how you can say otherwise. The Red Sox are the most successful team in baseball right now, but yet I still see endless comments about the Yankees anywhere you look.
It is still that way. Hatred and obsession are hard traits to be rid of. Maybe over time if the Red Sox continue to have the upper hand, the young kids will replace the older generation and their attitudes will be different. If you were 30 in 2004, one year doesn't change years of learned behavior. Plus there is the larger point of Boston's pathological inferiority complex with regard to New York.
I'm not really too concerned with what Hank has to say about the Red Sox. Although it can be undignified and uncalled for, I have to admit that sometimes I find it funny when the front office types snipe at each other. It makes for great press.
I do wonder though if Hank will be as outspoken about his own team and individual players as the season progresses, something which the Yankees haven't had to deal with for a few years. It'll be all the more interesting because Torre won't be there to soothe ruffled feathers.
Still, when all is said and done, the players will ultimately decide things, as they always do. I don't think that anything anybody says will have much of an impact on what goes on down on the field.
On a side note, if a Yankee fan tried to convince me that they have a much bigger fan base because they drew 4.2 million fans and the Sox only drew 2.9 million, the first words out of my mouth would be about stadium capacity, so it's only fair that NY fans bring it up when talking about road attendance. I can live with being second to NY by a mere 900 people per game.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:40 PM
Please explain how?
When you're in a heated division race, you're thinking about the here and now. In the offseason, you tend to have more of these inane historical pissing contests.
The Yankees have won a few if memory serves since '37. They typically don't have 86 year dry spells. But whatever. And frankly 2000 was of little solace to me when we lost in game 7 in 2001 and during the Sox WS championships. I think the original poster was correct that the scenario outlined would be of limited solace to RSN. You bringing up 1937 as if it's some kind of balancing commentary isn't becoming of your team's track record.
No, I bring up 1937 because it counts. It counts and yankee fans enjoy telling the world how much it counts every time they don their Got Rings t-shirts and flash 2-6 like it's a gang sign. If all 26 yankee rings count then I would expect the World Champion Boston Red Sox can count their 2007 ring in the doldrums of August if they lose a game.
Yes it still does, and I really don't see how you can say otherwise. The Red Sox are the most successful team in baseball right now, but yet I still see endless comments about the Yankees anywhere you look.
It is still that way. Hatred and obsession are hard traits to be rid of. Maybe over time if the Red Sox continue to have the upper hand, the young kids will replace the older generation and their attitudes will be different. If you were 30 in 2004, one year doesn't change years of learned behavior. Plus there is the larger point of Boston's pathological inferiority complex with regard to New York.
Saying it's so over and over doesn't make it any more true. Do Sox fans make comments about the Yankees? Yeah... of course. But it's no more so than Yankees fans making comments about the Sox. I'm not arguing that the Yankees are obsessed with the Sox and the Sox never think about the Yankees. But the days of one sided "obsession" are over.
You're living in the past if you keep insisting otherwise. And I'm not getting into a "My city is better than yours" argument with you. The fact that you're trying to devolve this into that speaks volumes.
When you're in a heated division race, you're thinking about the here and now. In the offseason, you tend to have more of these inane historical pissing contests.
We're talking about a hypothetical situation in 2008. You think that the performance of virtually the same squad of players in 2007 that resulted in a World Series title is historical and not relevant?
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:48 PM
I can admit that prior to 2004, I'm sure I gave more thought about the Yankees than you gave about the Red Sox, but I'm not talking about the history of the rivalry, I'm talking about right now, present day.. Going forward, Yankees fans know that they have to beat the Red Sox to have a chance of winning a title, and we know the same about you. So I'd say it's pretty equal how much thought each side is giving the other.
And remember, the thing you had over us prior to 2004 was all the Curse BS. It was the fact that we hadn't won, and hadn't beaten you in any kind of meaningful matchup. As far as I'm concerned, 2004 erased that. You guys can say '26 rings' all you want now, it honestly doesn't bother me at all. And for a lot of Yankee fans (not saying all, but definitely some), the fact that you can't chant 1918 anymore or tell Red Sox fans "At least we've won it before" like you did after the Florida loss bugs them.
Go back a century, you guys dominated. Go back the last few years, we have. Going forward, there's not a thing a Yankee fan can say that would make me think we don't have as good (or better) chance of winning our next ring before you guys.
I know I'm not going to change your mind, and that I'm a Sox fan on a Yankee board, just putting my thoughts out there. But I really think you're overestimating how much we still think about you guys. 26-7 is still more titles, but it was never about that, it was about us never even seeing 1. 2004 changed that, and 2007 made it even clearer.
The point is that historical events shape people's present mindsets, even if recent events somewhat change the impact of those historical events. Your point about having to beat the Red Sox proves my point. Yankee fans are greatly concerned with the Red Sox right now because they're the team to beat. Just like in the 70s and 80s the Yankees-Royals rivalry was a big deal, and in the 50's Yankees-Dodgers. The Yankee fan's thought process about the Red Sox right now is because they're in our way. If you switched the Orioles and the Red Sox rosters right now, I guarantee that you wouldn't here a peep about the Red Sox. Can you honestly say that it would be the same if the situation was reversed?
As for 04 and 07 changing things, I don't really think so. What series do the Red Sox fans ramble on about? Not the 04 or 07 WS, or the 07 ALCS, but the 04 ALCS. So they ignore two title winning series and a more recent AL championship with a nearly equal comeback, to take shots at the Yankees.
roblyo33
02-29-08, 06:49 PM
Saying it's so over and over doesn't make it any more true. Do Sox fans make comments about the Yankees? Yeah... of course. But it's no more so than Yankees fans making comments about the Sox. I'm not arguing that the Yankees are obsessed with the Sox and the Sox never think about the Yankees. But the days of one sided "obsession" are over.
You're living in the past if you keep insisting otherwise. And I'm not getting into a "My city is better than yours" argument with you. The fact that you're trying to devolve this into that speaks volumes.
NY is better because we travel better................how's that??
SoxFanInCali
02-29-08, 06:49 PM
Two in four is a nice run, but let's expand that filter a bit. 2 in 90? Not so much. A ring in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's might have been a nice touch.I'm really not trying to troll here or be an ass, but I smile when a Yankee fan keeps trying to justify things by saying things like this. The rings you won 50-60 years ago are great when reading history books, but they have no impact whatsoever on the present day. The 86 years issue may have actually given you guys a psychological advantage in big games, because nobody on Boston wanted to be the next Buckner. But that's gone now. If anything, it could be argued that the Yankees are now the ones that tighten up a bit in big games, because nobody wants to be the scapegoat there, either. But the point I'm trying to make is that pre-2004, you had the history AND the recent success to hold over us. You've still got the history, but now we can hold our recent run over you to even things up.
I should probably wrap this up soon, because I didn't come here with the intention of taking on your whole board. When is Opening Day again? :D
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:49 PM
We're talking about a hypothetical situation in 2008. You think that the performance of virtually the same squad of players in 2007 that resulted in a World Series title is historical and not relevant?
That's an entirely different point.
That's an entirely different point.
It's the one and only point I have tried to make.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:53 PM
Saying it's so over and over doesn't make it any more true. Do Sox fans make comments about the Yankees? Yeah... of course. But it's no more so than Yankees fans making comments about the Sox. I'm not arguing that the Yankees are obsessed with the Sox and the Sox never think about the Yankees. But the days of one sided "obsession" are over.
You're living in the past if you keep insisting otherwise. And I'm not getting into a "My city is better than yours" argument with you. The fact that you're trying to devolve this into that speaks volumes.
Whatever, there's no way to quantify this, but I think you're ignoring the reality of the rivalry if you think that.
Good, because there is no argument. Seriously though, I didn't bring that up to pour gas on the fire, perhaps I should have chose my words more carefully. However it is relevant to this discussion, because it helps to explain certain attitudes.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 06:55 PM
It's the one and only point I have tried to make.
What you said there is defending the ability of the 08 team to win based on a similar roster's success in 07. That's reasonable. This whole discussion is about off the field stuff, comments from front offices, the nature of the rivalry, Yankee and Red Sox fan attitudes etc. Basically everything but on the field baseball, lol.
SoxFanInCali
02-29-08, 06:56 PM
As for 04 and 07 changing things, I don't really think so. What series do the Red Sox fans ramble on about? Not the 04 or 07 WS, or the 07 ALCS, but the 04 ALCS. So they ignore two title winning series and a more recent AL championship with a nearly equal comeback, to take shots at the Yankees.
I'll respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. But I'll add one thing:
-We definitely don't ignore 2 title winning series. Those are the ones that we bought the T-Shirts and DVDs for. We bring up 2004 when talking to Yankee fans, same way you usually don't spend a lot of time talking about 1978 except to Sox fans.
I better get out of here now. When Lucen starts trying to support one of my points, it's time to leave.
The Yankees/Sox regular season rivalry has become boring to me because they play way too many games as a result of the unbalanced schedule.
My hope is that the Yankees stop playing so tight in the playoffs, and finally win round for the first time since the 2004 collapse. If they do that, I think the Yankees will beat any team they face in the ALCS.
Hank's comments are a tedious distraction from that goal.
roblyo33
02-29-08, 06:58 PM
I better get out of here now. When Lucen starts trying to support one of my points, it's time to leave.
You are a wise man (for a Sox fan.........LOL)
The Yankees/Sox regular season rivalry has become boring to me because they play way too many games as a result of the unbalanced schedule.
My hope is that the Yankees stop playing so tight in the playoffs, and finally win round for the first time since the 2004 collapse. If they do that, I think the Yankees will beat any team they face in the ALCS.
Hank's comments are a tedious distraction from that goal.
I hate the unbalanced schedule. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 07:00 PM
I'll respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. But I'll add one thing:
-We definitely don't ignore 2 title winning series. Those are the ones that we bought the T-Shirts and DVDs for. We bring up 2004 when talking to Yankee fans, same way you usually don't spend a lot of time talking about 1978 except to Sox fans.
I better get out of here now. When Lucen starts trying to support one of my points, it's time to leave.
I don't know, seems to me, the vast majority of the talk from Red Sox fans about the 04/07 playoffs is about the 04 ALCS. I'm not talking about trying to piss off Yankee fans, it seems amongst themselves, or when talking objectively, the 04 ALCS is what they're all focused on.
What you said there is defending the ability of the 08 team to win based on a similar roster's success in 07. That's reasonable. This whole discussion is about off the field stuff, comments from front offices, the nature of the rivalry, Yankee and Red Sox fan attitudes etc. Basically everything but on the field baseball, lol.
I kindly ask you re-read my posts. I said nothing about the '08 teams ability to win a game. I said nothing about on field performance of either team in fact. I stated that as Red Sox and their fans try to cope with the taunts and jabs from Hank and the hypothetical blow of an A-Rod walkoff I was confident that the 2007 World Series win would allow them to keep their chins up.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Yankees13
02-29-08, 07:09 PM
I kindly ask you re-read my posts. I said nothing about the '08 teams ability to win a game. I said nothing about on field performance of either team in fact. I stated that as Red Sox and their fans try to cope with the taunts and jabs from Hank and the hypothetical blow of an A-Rod walkoff I was confident that the 2007 World Series win would allow them to keep their chins up.
Nothing more, nothing less.
You're jumping all over the place. You made it sound as if the 07 championship was a consideration in evaluating the 08 team, which is reasonable. Now you're back to your initial point. What I'm trying to say, is that Red Sox fans can't hide behind 07 forever and if Hank starts hamming it up and the Yankees have a clear upper hand, what happened last year isn't going to be complete consolation.
I'm really not trying to troll here or be an ass, but I smile when a Yankee fan keeps trying to justify things by saying things like this. The rings you won 50-60 years ago are great when reading history books, but they have no impact whatsoever on the present day. The 86 years issue may have actually given you guys a psychological advantage in big games, because nobody on Boston wanted to be the next Buckner. But that's gone now. If anything, it could be argued that the Yankees are now the ones that tighten up a bit in big games, because nobody wants to be the scapegoat there, either. But the point I'm trying to make is that pre-2004, you had the history AND the recent success to hold over us. You've still got the history, but now we can hold our recent run over you to even things up.
I should probably wrap this up soon, because I didn't come here with the intention of taking on your whole board. When is Opening Day again? :DWell, it's because Red Sox posters (not you specifically) are coming into a Yankees forum talking about 2004 and 2007 as if those were the only 2 years that really mattered when looking in the rear view mirror. And don't insult anyone's intelligence by even implying that the rings from 50-60 years ago are trivial and just for history books. And does anyone remember 2000? It's funny - I guess Red Sox fans are buying into the hype that an 8 year drought for the Yankees is equvialent to the Sox or Cubs' futility of lore. There was an entire generation of Red Sox fans that passed from this life without ever seeing a championship.
The New England area sure is having a nice stretch across professional sports right now, and kudos for that but let's not start talking as if the history of our franchises don't matter. Let's stop comparing a ring from last year to a ring the Yankees earned 70 years ago as if NYY haven't won since then.
I don't know, seems to me, the vast majority of the talk from Red Sox fans about the 04/07 playoffs is about the 04 ALCS. I'm not talking about trying to piss off Yankee fans, it seems amongst themselves, or when talking objectively, the 04 ALCS is what they're all focused on.
It's similar to when everybody talks about the Miracle on Ice. Everyone forgets that the U.S./USSR game was not the gold medal game. The U.S.had to beat Finland to win the gold.
However, beating the Yankees, while satisfying, didn't accomplish the main objective--to win the WS for the first time in 86 years. Had the Sox lost to the Cards, it would have been devastating. I don't think any true Red Sox fan would overlook that series. Casual sports fans may think about the Yankees when you mention 2004, but Red Sox fans think about the WS Championship over the Cards as well.
I kindly ask you re-read my posts. I said nothing about the '08 teams ability to win a game. I said nothing about on field performance of either team in fact. I stated that as Red Sox and their fans try to cope with the taunts and jabs from Hank and the hypothetical blow of an A-Rod walkoff I was confident that the 2007 World Series win would allow them to keep their chins up.
Nothing more, nothing less....other than comparing that to a Yankees championship from 70 years ago. Rather random. Hey - if 2007 tides you over, more power to you. I'm sure the FO of the Sox will look back fondly on these recent years, but I categorically disagree with you that they'll take solace in the fact that they won last year if they are not winning this year.
Yankees1962
02-29-08, 07:29 PM
He's just sinking to Lucchino's level..
Please, George at times was much lower than Lucchino's level ever was.
trentonthunder
02-29-08, 07:37 PM
I also tend to believe that if Hank is this outspoken about the Sox, then
he will be equally outspoken about his well paid employees when they are not
playing up to his expectations.
nnysiny
02-29-08, 07:42 PM
I also tend to believe that if Hank is this outspoken about the Sox, then
he will be equally outspoken about his well paid employees when they are not
playing up to his expectations.
i have a feeling he will be outspoken about everything and anything
You're jumping all over the place. You made it sound as if the 07 championship was a consideration in evaluating the 08 team, which is reasonable. Now you're back to your initial point. What I'm trying to say, is that Red Sox fans can't hide behind 07 forever and if Hank starts hamming it up and the Yankees have a clear upper hand, what happened last year isn't going to be complete consolation.
With all due respect I have never deviated from my initial point which was and still is that the fact that the Red Sox won the World Series in 2007 will allow them and their fans to cope with whatever comments Hank has to offer. Another poster challenged that notion by proposing that a walk off by A-Rod would erase the good will generated by the Championship win. I stated that defending the World Series Title would get them through one loss due to a walk off.
All very consistent.
Ynkcpt23
02-29-08, 09:12 PM
What makes you think that? Oh, yeah, the fact that he hasn't stopped talking in months.
Seriously, I wish he could step back a little bit. I live in NC and I see a ton of BoSox crap on 15-27 year olds that have lived in NC their entire lives. If you count the idiotic front-running, "I've been a Sox fan all my lahf!" BS artists, then yeah, Red Sux Nation seems to be running rampant these days. Yankee fans (I know I'm generalizing) tend to be spread out all over the place, much more so than Boston fans in my experience. Give it some time. Unless they become the juggernaut the breathless ESPN/New England media crowd gives them premature credit for, all that stuff will hit the trash and the newest flavor (Rays merchandise?!?) will surface. The NY of the proper color will always be popular due to our tradition of excellence.
I commend Boston for their recent success, they're smart at the top and talented on the field. However, you cannot discredit 26 titles and nearly 100 years of tradition with less than a five year stretch of sustained success, regardless of some of the biased garbage I've read in this thread.
Ynkcpt23
02-29-08, 09:14 PM
i have a feeling he will be outspoken about everything and anything
Sorry, meant to quote nnysiny at the top of my last post:upset:
jeterdaman
02-29-08, 09:21 PM
Hank is sounding like the bully in Middle School who is trying to convince himself of something while feeling inferior deep inside. He needs to shut up
kirbivore
02-29-08, 10:30 PM
It's similar to when everybody talks about the Miracle on Ice. Everyone forgets that the U.S./USSR game was not the gold medal game. The U.S.had to beat Finland to win the gold.
However, beating the Yankees, while satisfying, didn't accomplish the main objective--to win the WS for the first time in 86 years. Had the Sox lost to the Cards, it would have been devastating. I don't think any true Red Sox fan would overlook that series. Casual sports fans may think about the Yankees when you mention 2004, but Red Sox fans think about the WS Championship over the Cards as well.
If they lost to STL, that would been interesting to see the reactions up here. I agree if somebody said, "at least they beat NY" that person is Identified as a Yankee hater and not a Red Sox fan.
BillBuckner
03-01-08, 01:35 PM
I really hate Hank running his mouth the way he does, but wow, was that ever funny. :lol:
Tom Finnigan
03-01-08, 10:33 PM
I really hate Hank running his mouth the way he does, but wow, was that ever funny. :lol:
If you think that was funny just wait until the season starts.
Baseball Hot Corner
03-02-08, 07:42 AM
Let's judge him by his actions, not his words. So far, the farms intact, A-Rod, Posada and Rivera are back. Good start--he looks and sounds like the old man fortunately there are differences.
jnewmark
03-02-08, 08:04 AM
Meet the new Boss; same as the old Boss.
...other than comparing that to a Yankees championship from 70 years ago. Rather random. Hey - if 2007 tides you over, more power to you. I'm sure the FO of the Sox will look back fondly on these recent years, but I categorically disagree with you that they'll take solace in the fact that they won last year if they are not winning this year.
Did I say the 2007 World Series title would give them solace if 2008 was a flop?
I did not. I said that one loss caused by an A-Rod walk off off of Papelbon would not be enough to sully the 2007 World Series title.
I also said that the World Series win would help them "take" comments offer by Hank.
TheoShmeo
03-02-08, 09:45 AM
I don't know, seems to me, the vast majority of the talk from Red Sox fans about the 04/07 playoffs is about the 04 ALCS. I'm not talking about trying to piss off Yankee fans, it seems amongst themselves, or when talking objectively, the 04 ALCS is what they're all focused on.
Rice pretty much covered what I was going to say, but let me add a few things to his correct general point -- that the 04 ALCS would have faded away if the Sox hadn't beaten the Cards.
People talk about the 04 ALCS not just because it was against the Yankees. If the Sox had won 4-1, the fact that it was against the Yankees would have been great for Sox fans, but the series would not have been nearly as memorable.
The 04 ALCS gets a lot attention because (a) it was a step on the way to the first title in 86 years, (b) the 0-3 comeback, (c) CRITICALLY, because games 4 and 5 were absolute EPICS, while game 6 was incredibly dramatic with the reversals and the Slap and (d) the Sox absolutely slaughtered the Cardinals in the WS.
As to the who is obsessed with who argument, living in the NY area and having a lot of ties to the NE area, it's clear to me that both sides are extremely obsessed with the other. And for good reason. The Sox are the Yankees' biggest obstacle to success and vice-versa. And they've been battling for decades and at a fever pitch (no pun intended) since 2003.
Trying to figure out who is more focused on the other inevitably leads to posts that smack of "we're better than you" even if the posters don't write that explicitly.
I'm not writing "why can't we all get along?" since I don't see that as possible or even as a goal. I am saying that the historical context to this, including what's happened in the last several years, doesn't explain the relative obsession any better than the fact that in 2008, the team standing the most in the way of the Sox and Yankees are the Sox and Yankees, and that's a very good reason for Sox and Yankees' fans to be focused on the opposition.
Rice pretty much covered what I was going to say, but let me add a few things to his correct general point -- that the 04 ALCS would have faded away if the Sox hadn't beaten the Cards.
People talk about the 04 ALCS not just because it was against the Yankees. If the Sox had won 4-1, the fact that it was against the Yankees would have been great for Sox fans, but the series would not have been nearly as memorable.
The 04 ALCS gets a lot attention because (a) it was a step on the way to the first title in 86 years, (b) the 0-3 comeback, (c) CRITICALLY, because games 4 and 5 were absolute EPICS, while game 6 was incredibly dramatic with the reversals and the Slap and (d) the Sox absolutely slaughtered the Cardinals in the WS.
As to the who is obsessed with who argument, living in the NY area and having a lot of ties to the NE area, it's clear to me that both sides are extremely obsessed with the other. And for good reason. The Sox are the Yankees' biggest obstacle to success and vice-versa. And they've been battling for decades and at a fever pitch (no pun intended) since 2003.
Trying to figure out who is more focused on the other inevitably leads to posts that smack of "we're better than you" even if the posters don't write that explicitly.
I'm not writing "why can't we all get along?" since I don't see that as possible or even as a goal. I am saying that the historical context to this, including what's happened in the last several years, doesn't explain the relative obsession any better than the fact that in 2008, the team standing the most in the way of the Sox and Yankees are the Sox and Yankees, and that's a very good reason for Sox and Yankees' fans to be focused on the opposition.
Thank goodness for you TheoShmeo, thank goodness for you. It's also lovely to see you branching out into the Yankee Forum.
nnysiny
03-02-08, 10:51 AM
aaaand theyre off. John Henry takes a comedic jab at The Mouth.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3273421
aaaand theyre off. John Henry takes a comedic jab at The Mouth.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3273421
I'd rather hear them take shots at Hank than Theo spewing BS about Mussina on the radio :mad:.
DisabledMess
03-02-08, 12:37 PM
aaaand theyre off. John Henry takes a comedic jab at The Mouth.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3273421
I thought it was pretty funny.
27IsNext
03-02-08, 12:41 PM
aaaand theyre off. John Henry takes a comedic jab at The Mouth.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3273421
Ahahahahaha that's awesome.
MassNYYfan
03-02-08, 01:01 PM
Thank goodness for you TheoShmeo, thank goodness for you. It's also lovely to see you branching out into the Yankee Forum.
Yeah. Greatest day of our lives here at NYYfans.
Godspeed
03-02-08, 01:55 PM
Hank needs to learn tact and class. He is embarrassing NY fans. It wouldn't be so bad if Boston hasn't been kicking ass lately and we weren't sucking it up.
Might not have been a bad thing to learn from Joe before losing him.
PJMPirate
03-02-08, 03:15 PM
Meet the new Boss; same as the old Boss.
Wow, I haven't heard that 15,000 times this offseason.
bigwampum
03-02-08, 03:39 PM
Wow, I haven't heard that 15,000 times this offseason.
It's still a good tune.
hank getting skewered, mocked and ridiculed pretty well on baseball tonight right now.
nothing out of bounds though.
Yankees13
03-02-08, 04:56 PM
hank getting skewered, mocked and ridiculed pretty well on baseball tonight right now.
nothing out of bounds though.
They're just proving him right.
Yankees1962
03-02-08, 05:52 PM
They're just proving him right.
Even Tiger fans here in Michigan has noticed ESPNs slant towards the Red Sox while the bias against the Yankees.
PJMPirate
03-02-08, 06:24 PM
Hank Steinbrenner said there’s not an official plan yet, but former Yankees center fielder Bernie Williams will be honored by the team. “Obviously, Bernie is special to us,” Steinbrenner said.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AooIXDhfOiw9pVpHZkqEmbsRvLYF?gid=280302110&prov=ap
Yankees13
03-02-08, 08:07 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AooIXDhfOiw9pVpHZkqEmbsRvLYF?gid=280302110&prov=ap
I know some disagree, but he definitely deserves to have his number retired. A top ten Yankee.
Dynasties R Forever
03-02-08, 08:34 PM
Rice pretty much covered what I was going to say, but let me add a few things to his correct general point -- that the 04 ALCS would have faded away if the Sox hadn't beaten the Cards.
People talk about the 04 ALCS not just because it was against the Yankees. If the Sox had won 4-1, the fact that it was against the Yankees would have been great for Sox fans, but the series would not have been nearly as memorable.
The 04 ALCS gets a lot attention because (a) it was a step on the way to the first title in 86 years, (b) the 0-3 comeback, (c) CRITICALLY, because games 4 and 5 were absolute EPICS, while game 6 was incredibly dramatic with the reversals and the Slap and (d) the Sox absolutely slaughtered the Cardinals in the WS.
As to the who is obsessed with who argument, living in the NY area and having a lot of ties to the NE area, it's clear to me that both sides are extremely obsessed with the other. And for good reason. The Sox are the Yankees' biggest obstacle to success and vice-versa. And they've been battling for decades and at a fever pitch (no pun intended) since 2003.
Trying to figure out who is more focused on the other inevitably leads to posts that smack of "we're better than you" even if the posters don't write that explicitly.
I'm not writing "why can't we all get along?" since I don't see that as possible or even as a goal. I am saying that the historical context to this, including what's happened in the last several years, doesn't explain the relative obsession any better than the fact that in 2008, the team standing the most in the way of the Sox and Yankees are the Sox and Yankees, and that's a very good reason for Sox and Yankees' fans to be focused on the opposition.
There isn't any comparison regarding who's more obsessed with the other. Get freaking real.
The Sox hadn't been more than a pimple on our butts, a fine running joke for the last 86 years. Up until the last few. Please, Yankee fans never cared much at all about Boston...who the hell were they? Things are different now, but there will never be the bitterness that consumed Boston fans for so long. There will never be that helpless inferiority in the face of the Yankee juggernaught that the Sox fans had.
Godspeed
03-03-08, 12:50 AM
I know some disagree, but he definitely deserves to have his number retired. A top ten Yankee.
Great player, perhaps retired anywhere else, but not here. Just consider his company. Top 10- no way. Not in pinstripes.
I understand certain people really just like him. I feel that way about Andy- he's a true yankee to me. With that said, he's simply not any sort of Yankee legend/legend-to-be like Don, Mick, Babe, Jeter, Paul, Lou, Joe D, etc. Heck, there are 7 guys right there i'd put above bernie without even thinking much about it.
Yankees13
03-03-08, 09:25 AM
Great player, perhaps retired anywhere else, but not here. Just consider his company. Top 10- no way. Not in pinstripes.
I understand certain people really just like him. I feel that way about Andy- he's a true yankee to me. With that said, he's simply not any sort of Yankee legend/legend-to-be like Don, Mick, Babe, Jeter, Paul, Lou, Joe D, etc. Heck, there are 7 guys right there i'd put above bernie without even thinking much about it.
I'd say he's above Mattingly and O'Neill definitely out of those you mentioned. Jeter will pass him by the time he retires, but right now above him as well. He was the best player on the dynasty teams, and he's in the top ten in every single Yankee category, top 5 in many.
hatfieldms
03-03-08, 09:35 AM
I have no problem with Hank saying what he said and Henry firing back at him. It is good to have the owners of the biggest rivals in baseball taking shots at each other like this. It is all in good fun and gets some attention off of this steroid garbage
OldYankeeFan
03-03-08, 10:02 AM
I have no problem with Hank saying what he said and Henry firing back at him. It is good to have the owners of the biggest rivals in baseball taking shots at each other like this. It is all in good fun and gets some attention off of this steroid garbage
I agree 100%. As it turns out Hank's main function is to market the Yankees through FREE press coverage. Whether you agree with him or not doesn't really matter. What matters is the coverage. And Hank gets it.
Cashman may have been better at making calculated statements to the press that served his end goal, but got very little coverage. So Brian may have lost "spokesman" duties to Hank who gets better coverage but Brian is clearly still the GM.
I agree 100%. As it turns out Hank's main function is to market the Yankees through FREE press coverage. Whether you agree with him or not doesn't really matter. What matters is the coverage. And Hank gets it.
Cashman may have been better at making calculated statements to the press that served his end goal, but got very little coverage. So Brian may have lost "spokesman" duties to Hank who gets better coverage but Brian is clearly still the GM.If this holds true I'm fine with it. I just hope his "spokesman" duties don't continue to bleed over into public negotations with FA's and GM's.
aaaand theyre off. John Henry takes a comedic jab at The Mouth.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3273421 It's more than mildly ironic that:
a) While Gammons is talking about Sox and Cubs hats and jackets, the only team gear you can see in the background is an A-Rod #13 jersey off to the right of him
b) The caption of a photo of John Henry on that page says "Red Sox principal owner John Henry turned the other cheek after recent comments from Yankees boss Hank Steinbrenner."
Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
YankeesAce4Life
03-03-08, 10:38 AM
Great player, perhaps retired anywhere else, but not here. Just consider his company. Top 10- no way. Not in pinstripes.
I understand certain people really just like him. I feel that way about Andy- he's a true yankee to me. With that said, he's simply not any sort of Yankee legend/legend-to-be like Don, Mick, Babe, Jeter, Paul, Lou, Joe D, etc. Heck, there are 7 guys right there i'd put above bernie without even thinking much about it.
You're kidding me right? You hold Don Mattingly over Bernie Williams. Yes, Don Mattingly was a great Yankee, but he was not better for the Yankees than Bernie was. Bernie was a clutch performer in the batters box and in the field. The guy won plenty of playoff games for us during our stretch of Championships. If it wasn't for him, I don't think we would have won a few of them. He was clutch in the playoffs. He held playoff records and he was top 10 in various Yankee records. The guy got old real quick due to various injuries. I loved Bernie and I loved Don, but Bernie did more overall for the Yankees. If Mattingly's # was retired so should #51. Mattingly was the bright light for the Yankees through the mid-late 80's and early to mid 90's. He got worn down and plus as he finally admitted, his marriage was in crisis mode all the way back when he was still playing. He retired due to his marriage crisis and wanting his kids to have their father and his back went. He was great, but as I say again, if his # was retired so should Bernies.
jnewmark
03-03-08, 11:01 AM
Wow, I haven't heard that 15,000 times this offseason.
You will probably hear it another 15,000 times this year.
Meecham4ever
03-03-08, 11:11 AM
There isn't any comparison regarding who's more obsessed with the other. Get freaking real.
The Sox hadn't been more than a pimple on our butts, a fine running joke for the last 86 years. Up until the last few. Please, Yankee fans never cared much at all about Boston...who the hell were they? Things are different now, but there will never be the bitterness that consumed Boston fans for so long. There will never be that helpless inferiority in the face of the Yankee juggernaught that the Sox fans had.
Unfortunately, you are correct....Hank is undermining Cash and selling small parts of the team to John Henry...we are becoming irrelevant in the shadow of Red Sux Nation..
:boring: :boring: :boring:
Penny Lane
03-03-08, 12:09 PM
Whenever I see a picture of Hank, I think of Bum Phillips.
Makes me nervous.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2792/bumzr3.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bumzr3.jpg)
THEBOSS84
03-03-08, 03:39 PM
This article is great:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=steinbrenner/080303
CallOfTheCrow
03-03-08, 03:44 PM
Los Angeles Angels
"Pick a city already! What a bunch of [expletive] that is. It's like the Mets in Queens saying they're from New York City."
lol!
The Q Bomb
03-03-08, 04:02 PM
You're kidding me right? You hold Don Mattingly over Bernie Williams. Yes, Don Mattingly was a great Yankee, but he was not better for the Yankees than Bernie was. Bernie was a clutch performer in the batters box and in the field. The guy won plenty of playoff games for us during our stretch of Championships. If it wasn't for him, I don't think we would have won a few of them. He was clutch in the playoffs. He held playoff records and he was top 10 in various Yankee records. The guy got old real quick due to various injuries. I loved Bernie and I loved Don, but Bernie did more overall for the Yankees. If Mattingly's # was retired so should #51. Mattingly was the bright light for the Yankees through the mid-late 80's and early to mid 90's. He got worn down and plus as he finally admitted, his marriage was in crisis mode all the way back when he was still playing. He retired due to his marriage crisis and wanting his kids to have their father and his back went. He was great, but as I say again, if his # was retired so should Bernies. Thank you! You saved my fingers a few hundred strokes. When will folks realize how good Bernie was? They seem to over estimate Mattingly (maybe because he was not on winning teams) and under estimate Bernie (maybe because he was a quiet guy on winning teams). I guess because Bernie got old so fast - but it was injuries that did him in the same as with Mattingly. I don't know that Bernie should have his number retired - I think The Yankees do too much of that - but he should certainly be remembered as one of the best Yankee centerfielders of all time.
Rocketbooster
03-03-08, 05:12 PM
Thank you! You saved my fingers a few hundred strokes. When will folks realize how good Bernie was? They seem to over estimate Mattingly (maybe because he was not on winning teams) and under estimate Bernie (maybe because he was a quiet guy on winning teams). I guess because Bernie got old so fast - but it was injuries that did him in the same as with Mattingly. I don't know that Bernie should have his number retired - I think The Yankees do too much of that - but he should certainly be remembered as one of the best Yankee centerfielders of all time.
Sorry, but I completely disagree. I remember Donnie and Donnie was the best player in baseball at his peak (which unfortunately didn't last very long). He won one MVP award and got screwed out of another when Roger one the Cy Young and the MVP in 1986. I love Bernie, but he didn't hold a candle to Donnie (and the latter was an incredible first baseman; I remember those consant debates about who was better: Keith Hernandez or Donnie Baseball......then later Will Clark v. Donnie, then Wally Joyner v. Wally).
Bernie is, IMO, being overestimated in comparison to Donnie because he was on great teams (of which he was a great, clutch contributor). I will not blame Donnie Baseball for any of the failings of his teams - the Yankees back then had abominable pitching.
cyhughes22
03-03-08, 05:49 PM
Sorry, but I completely disagree. I remember Donnie and Donnie was the best player in baseball at his peak (which unfortunately didn't last very long). He won one MVP award and got screwed out of another when Roger one the Cy Young and the MVP in 1986. I love Bernie, but he didn't hold a candle to Donnie (and the latter was an incredible first baseman; I remember those consant debates about who was better: Keith Hernandez or Donnie Baseball......then later Will Clark v. Donnie, then Wally Joyner v. Wally).
Bernie is, IMO, being overestimated in comparison to Donnie because he was on great teams (of which he was a great, clutch contributor). I will not blame Donnie Baseball for any of the failings of his teams - the Yankees back then had abominable pitching.
Not to mention that Donnie Baseball was a natural baseball player. The man was born to play baseball and he was an incredible talent. Had he been able to stay healthy he would have been in the hall easily. Bernie on the other hand was a great athlete and a very good baseball player. He was never much more than average defensively whereas Donnie was a Gold Glove caliber guy and I defy anyone to tell me that he was as good a hitter as Mattingly. In fact I dare you...anyone?
I love Bernie; he was underestimated in his best years. But Donnie at his peak in the mid-80s was the best player in the game. Bernie never was.
Bernie had a longer career on top of his game, though not as long as some.
Had Donnie had a normal downward slope from his peak he would be in the HOF. Donnie could have been Stan Musial if he had a stronger back. Bernie never reached a HOF peak.
That said, I would retire Bernie's number, but not Paulie's and not Tino's, in part because Bernie played all of his career as a Yankee.
Bernie Williams and Don Mattingly had nearly identical lifetime stats. Bernie got on base more often, Donnie hit for a little more power. Overall, probably a slight edge to Mattingly.
But Mattingly played 1B, which is the least valuable position on the field (although he played at a GG level). Williams was, for the most part, an adequate centerfielder, which is a much more valueable defensive position.
Hard to choose between them strictly in terms of baseball value.
Yankees1962
03-03-08, 06:27 PM
Bernie Williams and Don Mattingly had nearly identical lifetime stats. Bernie got on base more often, Donnie hit for a little more power. Overall, probably a slight edge to Mattingly.
But Mattingly played 1B, which is the least valuable position on the field (although he played at a GG level). Williams was, for the most part, an adequate centerfielder, which is a much more valueable defensive position.
Hard to choose between them strictly in terms of baseball value.
It goes beyond baseball value to serious baseball fans.
Rocketbooster
03-03-08, 06:50 PM
Not to mention that Donnie Baseball was a natural baseball player. The man was born to play baseball and he was an incredible talent. Had he been able to stay healthy he would have been in the hall easily. Bernie on the other hand was a great athlete and a very good baseball player. He was never much more than average defensively whereas Donnie was a Gold Glove caliber guy and I defy anyone to tell me that he was as good a hitter as Mattingly. In fact I dare you...anyone?
Oh easily - it breaks my heart that Donnie broke down. However, he truly was revered by all the players in the game - Kirby Puckett gave him the nickname Donnie Baseball- and that's wonderful in and of itself. It's a shame that he's not in pinstripes anymore, but he'll always be a Yankee.......and I'm sure he feels that in his heart.
There's a reason why the man always got the loudest ovation at Old Timer's Days.. except for Scooter.
Donnie was a pure hitter; SI once did an article with Ted Williams, Donnie and Wade Boggs talking about hitting. Brilliant. One thing I always notice on players now, lol, are whether their shoulders are sloping or not. Donnie was compared to Stan Musial a lot due to their sweet hitting and their sloping shoulders......lol I really have no idea how sloping shoulders is a benefit, but apparently it helped them
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