View Full Version : The Official Hank Steinbrenner Performance Thread
YankeesAce4Life
04-21-08, 02:02 PM
Hank Steinbrenner 'misunderstood' re: Joba Chamberlain (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/yankees_hank_steinbrenner_misu.html)
Look at the bolded part for anyone who thinks Cashman is in control.
Cashman the Bookkeeper. ;)
b-ball-lunachick
04-21-08, 02:13 PM
Hank Steinbrenner 'misunderstood' re: Joba Chamberlain (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/yankees_hank_steinbrenner_misu.html)
Look at the bolded part for anyone who thinks Cashman is in control.
Either he's contradicting himself in the last two sentences, or he thinks he is his own best baseball people. :D
Hank Steinbrenner 'misunderstood' re: Joba Chamberlain (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/yankees_hank_steinbrenner_misu.html)
Look at the bolded part for anyone who thinks Cashman is in control.
Look at all the times he said something like that over the offseason... and it meant nothing.
Cashman may or may not be in a different role than he was, but Hank isn't the only voice that matters no matter how much of his hot air he emits.
Hank Ur The Boss.....fire His A;) ;)
Too bad he isn't. He has a brother who has a say also. Hal say that patience with the kids be the order of the day. Hank can just open up a can of STFU and drink up as far as I am concerned.
Too bad he isn't. He has a brother who has a say also. Hal say that patience with the kids be the order of the day. Hank just open up a can of STFU and drink up as far as I am concerned.
Patience.....ya thats working out really well..........FIRE CASHMAN....GET THEO
Patience.....ya thats working out really well..........FIRE CASHMAN....GET THEO
It worked out with the Red Sox.
What was Beckett's ERA in his first year in the AL?
It worked out with the Red Sox.
What was Beckett's ERA in his first year in the AL?
Im talking kids......beckett still won 16 games his 1st yr with the sox......hughes and ipk won't even smell 16 wins....
CyYoung4Vazquez
04-21-08, 03:01 PM
The media must be pretty bored today. This story is really being blown out of porportion. Hank is all talk. I'm not worried about Cashman changing his stance or leaving the team for that matter.
Im talking kids......beckett still won 16 games his 1st yr with the sox......hughes and ipk won't even smell 16 wins....
Because the Red Sox had an amazing offense that year. Beckett was below average that year. ERA of 5.05 and an ERA+ of 95.
Maybe if the Yanks bats score some runs, then Hughes and Kennedy might have a chance at about 12-14 wins.
Do you think Beckett wins 16 games without a great offense backing him up?
Because the Red Sox had an amazing offense that year. Beckett was below average that year. ERA of 5.05 and an ERA+ of 95.
Maybe if the Yanks bats score some runs, then Hughes and Kennedy might have a chance at about 12-14 wins.
Do you think Beckett wins 16 games without a great offense backing him up?
The way they are pitching we could score 6 runs a game and they would give up 7....send the both down and work out their stuff......its all in the mind lol..:)
mycroft
04-21-08, 03:11 PM
like father like son
The way they are pitching we could score 6 runs a game and they would give up 7....send the both down and work out their stuff......its all in the mind lol..:)
I agree that they both need to work out their stuff, but it would help if the offense would show up too.
How do we get shut out by that Orioles pitcher on Saturday? I can't even recall his name? I bet the next start he gets blown out.
I agree that they both need to work out their stuff, but it would help if the offense would show up too.
How do we get shut out by that Orioles pitcher on Saturday? I can't even recall his name? I bet the next start he gets blown out.
Good Point there.......:)
Patience.....ya thats working out really well..........FIRE CASHMAN....GET THEOI smell... TROLL.
Im talking kids......beckett still won 16 games his 1st yr with the sox......hughes and ipk won't even smell 16 wins....There it is again!
teknetic
04-21-08, 03:57 PM
I agree that they both need to work out their stuff, but it would help if the offense would show up too.
How do we get shut out by that Orioles pitcher on Saturday? I can't even recall his name? I bet the next start he gets blown out.
You could have asked that the last two times he shut us down last year..who the hell knows, would be my answer.
Patience.....ya thats working out really well..........FIRE CASHMAN....GET THEO
facepalm.jpg
Rocketbooster
04-21-08, 05:06 PM
But this isn't a fact. As I said previously, Cashman has alluded to the notion that you don't build a farm system strictly for promotion. This is you making something up and alluding to it as though it's beyond argument.
Sure he is. Between mimicking everything Cashman has said about building the farm, to Joba's ultimate destination as a starter, Hank has just been undermining Cashman at every turn. Oh, and then there was the deal he forced Cashman to make for Johan Santana that further proves your point.
Right, because Hank has sole power. I think it's pretty clear to anyone who's not a Hank groupie that Hal is the one that put the kibosh on the Santana deal. Who was Hank adament about protecting? Joba. Who did he specifically mention in his ramblings about the ongoing trade talks? Hughes. Hal didn't want to do it and as he is co-owner of the team, it wasn't going to get done.
njdhockey
04-21-08, 05:10 PM
Hey Hank, stop talking
Someone needs to glue his mouth permanantly shut.
Rocketbooster
04-21-08, 05:10 PM
Brian Cashman has been mediocre when you factor in the huge advantage he has over every other organization in terms of resources. Of course he's safeguarded often because of the fractured state of management that NYY was following the 2001 World Series.
I am not of the opinion that he's some kind of genius. For example, I feel Gene Michael has made a much bigger imprint on this organization than Cashman, and with lesser resources at the time. Realizing that we had to rebuild the farm system and pitching staff with youth wasn't exactly hard to see. I'm glad they are finally doing it. But it's not like this has never been done before. Michael did it.
Point is, Chamberlain should be a starter. Hank is right.
Now we are going to credit Hank for coming up with this bright idea? It was Cashman who stated over and over again (last year and this) that the plan is for Joba to be a starter; he was put in the pen due to circumstances that could not have been forseen (like Phil was brought up much earlier than he would have been due to massive injuries in the rotation). If anyone should be getting credit for being right, it's Cash. Hank is just parrotting him......and then making ridiculous statements that Joba has to be put in the rotation right NOW. Fortunately, Brian put him in his place.
Ynkcpt23
04-21-08, 05:12 PM
Right, because Hank has sole power. I think it's pretty clear to anyone who's not a Hank groupie that Hal is the one that put the kibosh on the Santana deal. Who was Hank adament about protecting? Joba. Who did he specifically mention in his ramblings about the ongoing trade talks? Hughes. Hal didn't want to do it and as he is co-owner of the team, it wasn't going to get done.
I think it was the Hal/Cash combo that eventually pulled the plug on the trade. No amount of Hank bluster can override the operations side of the organization. God bless Hal, for having the good sense to keep the kids--and before you start spouting s*** at me, they have a learning curve. Deal with it.
I think it was the Hal/Cash combo that eventually pulled the plug on the trade. No amount of Hank bluster can override the operations side of the organization. God bless Hal, for having the good sense to keep the kids--and before you start spouting s*** at me, they have a learning curve. Deal with it.
Its easy for Hal to put down a deal, he doesnt have to worry about getting a contract extension. I think its very clear that the decision not to get Santana is being placed in the lap of Cash and if things dont go well for the yankees and the kids this year Cash will likely pay for it with his job as a scapegoat because he was the one who killed the Santana deal with Hal but Hank cannot get rid of Hal.
PirateChief
04-21-08, 05:16 PM
"The mistake was already made last year switching him to the bullpen out of panic or whatever," Steinbrenner told The Times.
*clap* Dangled the meat in front of the fans and the media and now people are even defending leaving him as the set up guy, including ignorant Mike Francesa and his interminably annoying lapdog.
Rocketbooster
04-21-08, 05:21 PM
I think it was the Hal/Cash combo that eventually pulled the plug on the trade. No amount of Hank bluster can override the operations side of the organization. God bless Hal, for having the good sense to keep the kids--and before you start spouting s*** at me, they have a learning curve. Deal with it.
Um, why would I spout *** at you?
Yes, it was Hal and Cash - but only Hal could prevent a Santana trade. Without him, Hank would have done what he wanted.
Um, why would I spout *** at you?
Yes, it was Hal and Cash - but only Hal could prevent a Santana trade. Without him, Hank would have done what he wanted.
Imagine what the world would be like if Hank could do anything he wanted.
Ynkcpt23
04-21-08, 05:26 PM
Um, why would I spout *** at you?
Yes, it was Hal and Cash - but only Hal could prevent a Santana trade. Without him, Hank would have done what he wanted.
Not YOU, RB, you big doofus, that was directed at the number of posters who I expected to jump all over my comment with Phil and Ian's current numbers. Sorry, should have made that more clear.
Forgive me oh mightily sensitive one?!? :)
Yankees1962
04-21-08, 05:55 PM
Update from Abraham talking with Cashman about Hank's comments.
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/21/cash-and-hank-on-the-same-page/#comment-319866
Rocketbooster
04-21-08, 06:22 PM
Imagine what the world would be like if Hank could do anything he wanted.
I have a great imagination, but even I don't want to imagine that, LOL
Rocketbooster
04-21-08, 06:24 PM
Not YOU, RB, you big doofus, that was directed at the number of posters who I expected to jump all over my comment with Phil and Ian's current numbers. Sorry, should have made that more clear.
Forgive me oh mightily sensitive one?!? :)
Well, I'm not sure if I want to forgive you until I decide whether you are sufficiently contrite enough. Get back to me in a few days.............:D
Ynkcpt23
04-21-08, 06:25 PM
I have a great imagination, but even I don't want to imagine that, LOL
No kidding--we want the final decision to be with the cooler heads, not somebody who's willing to spout off randomly for absolutely no reason.
yanksphan
04-21-08, 06:29 PM
Bobby Abreu, Corey, Lidle, Alberto Gonzalez, Chad Moeller....
Shawn Chacon, Aaron Small, Ross Olendorf, Jose Molina, calling up Wang and Cano....
Joba's Rings
04-21-08, 07:15 PM
Hank Steinbrenner 'misunderstood' re: Joba Chamberlain (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/yankees_hank_steinbrenner_misu.html)
"My point is not to overrule anybody," Steinbrenner said. "The fact of the matter is, Joe (Girardi, the manager), Brian (Cashman, the GM) and everybody in the organization has always thought Chamberlain was a starter. And the goal has always been to get him back to that point."
"If I had been in charge last year, he wouldn't have moved to the bullpen," Steinbrenner said. "That put us behind."
"That's definitely what we want, not just me but everybody," Steinbrenner said. "It's definitely what I want, and in the end that's what matters. But I'm still going to go by what my best baseball people tell me."
Look at the bolded part for anyone who thinks Cashman is in control. And here's an entire, quite relevant section of the article, not just a few selected lines:
Steinbrenner said there is a "specific plan" to convert Chamberlain back to starting but that it will take time because he has to be stretched out to longer outings.
"That's definitely what we want, not just me but everybody," Steinbrenner said. "It's definitely what I want, and in the end that's what matters. But I'm still going to go by what my best baseball people tell me."
As for Hughes (0-3, 8.82 ERA) and Kenendy (0-2, 9.64), Steinbrenner said, "It's hard to just say, 'They're young pitchers so it's a learning experience, blah blah blah.' Look at (defending Cy Young Award winner C.C.) Sabathia (who is 0-3 with a 13.50 ERA). It's early in the season, period, whether it's a young pitcher or a veteran.
"It's still a learning curve there. What they can't do is start to feel pressure. It's not necessary. They're dealing with an organization now that's going to be extremely patient with them, because we know their talent, we know what they can do. It's just a matter of time." Joba as a starter? Listening to his best baseball people? Perspective? A learning curve?
We're doomed, guys & gals. Doomed, I tells ya.
Hank's impulsivity tends to get out of front of his rationality, but I think he gets it.
Spiker101
04-21-08, 07:26 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again: this Hank Steinbrenner thing is not going to end well. The man doesn't even understand the significance of counting innings for young pitchers. He belongs nowhere near the levers of power of a major league operation.
Joba's Rings
04-21-08, 07:27 PM
Hank's impulsivity tends to get out of front of his rationality, but I think he gets it. Agreed. He always seems to need to throw in some comment or insinuation that he's in charge - even though his brother has equal power - but as long as he says the right stuff in the rest of his commentary, I'm in Hank's corner.
Go Hank.
Joba's Rings
04-21-08, 07:27 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again: this Hank Steinbrenner thing is not going to end well. The man doesn't even understand the significance of counting innings for young pitchers. He belongs nowhere near the levers of power of a major league operation. Did you read the quote I provided above?
I said it before and I'll say it again: this Hank Steinbrenner thing is not going to end well. The man doesn't even understand the significance of counting innings for young pitchers. He belongs nowhere near the levers of power of a major league operation.
I think he does. Here's his quote after some reflection (and perhaps some consultation):
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/04/21/2008-04-21_hank_steinbrenner_wants_joba_chamberlain.html
"It's all of our intention to try to get him back into the rotation by the end of the year," Steinbrenner told the Daily News by phone Monday afternoon. "I've addressed it many times, as did Joe (Girardi) and (GM Brian) Cashman. I'm just saying it would be nice to have him there right now. He's going to be great anywhere we have him but, my preference is as a starter and that's everybody else's preference, too.
27IsNext
04-21-08, 07:38 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again: this Hank Steinbrenner thing is not going to end well. The man doesn't even understand the significance of counting innings for young pitchers. He belongs nowhere near the levers of power of a major league operation.
In his latest tirade, Hank unknowingly admitted that he doesn't have the power he acts like he has whenever he spouts off to the media. Cosequently, I liken him to the dog with all bark but no bite.
Spiker101
04-21-08, 07:39 PM
Did you read the quote I provided above?
Yeah, I read the quote. You want me to be assured by that? I don't think he's going to be able to force Joba into the rotation anytime soon. But I'm mightily concerned about the man's seeming stupidity. He negotiates in public matters that should be closely held, he apparently doesn't understand the basic elements of player development or the financial and baseball value of young players. He's made one elementary mistake after another, just like that older Steinbrenner, the one that damn near destroyed the franchise. And he's one power struggle away from having complete control of the whole shebang.
27IsNext
04-21-08, 07:41 PM
Yeah, I read the quote. You want me to be assured by that? I don't think he's going to be able to force Joba into the rotation anytime soon. But I'm mightily concerned about the man's seeming stupidity. He negotiates in public matters that should be closely held, he apparently doesn't understand the basic elements of player development or the financial and baseball value of young players. He's made one elementary mistake after another, just like that older Steinbrenner, the one that damn near destroyed the franchise. And he's one power struggle away from having complete control of the whole shebang.
I'm sorry, but this is just flat-out ignorant. You need to read some interviews he did last winter.
Spiker101
04-21-08, 07:41 PM
I think he does. Here's his quote after some reflection (and perhaps some consultation):
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/04/21/2008-04-21_hank_steinbrenner_wants_joba_chamberlain.html
Well, he shouldn't even be saying that much. Truth is that Joba might have to stay in the pen all season -- if the Yanks are to contend for a title. Good owners should be seen and not heard.
Joba's Rings
04-21-08, 07:45 PM
Yeah, I read the quote. You want me to be assured by that? I don't think he's going to be able to force Joba into the rotation anytime soon. But I'm mightily concerned about the man's seeming stupidity. He negotiates in public matters that should be closely held, he apparently doesn't understand the basic elements of player development or the financial and baseball value of young players. He's made one elementary mistake after another, just like that older Steinbrenner, the one that damn near destroyed the franchise. And he's one power struggle away from having complete control of the whole shebang. He doesn't want to force Joba into the rotation.
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/21/cash-and-hank-on-the-same-page/
After seeing the comments in the New York Times today, Brian Cashman spoke with Hank Steinbrenner.
“We’re on the same page, 110 percent,” Cashman told The Journal News a few minutes ago. “He understands the situation.”
Cashman said Joba Chamberlain would remain in the bullpen for now. At some point (Page 1 of the Secret Plan), he will make the transition to the bullpen.
I believe Abraham meant to say "rotation" in that last sentence.
As for Hank’s comments that it was a mistake for Joba to pitch in relief last season, Cashman said he explained to the co-chairperson that Joba was about to reach his innings limit when that move was made.
“Hank wasn’t involved last season and he didn’t understand what we were doing at that time,” Cashman said. “I explained it to him and he had no problems with it.”
The worst I see here is that Hank talks before he thinks. That can be embarrassing for him, but the sky certainly isn't falling when an owner totally gets something like, for example, Joba moving to the rotation in the face of just about every bozo in the media - and former players - declaring he should stay in the bullpen.
Go Hank.
Spiker101
04-21-08, 07:47 PM
I'm sorry, but this is just flat-out ignorant. You need to read some interviews he did last winter.
Flat-out ignorant or not, I know enough not to judge someone by what he says but by what he does. So far, the organization has dodged the Hank bullet but sooner or later they're going to take one in the head.
Joba's Rings
04-21-08, 07:48 PM
Flat-out ignorant or not, I know enough not to judge someone by what he says but by what he does. So far, the organization has dodged the Hank bullet but sooner or later they/re going to take on in the head.
Hank has done nothing wrong.
Flat-out ignorant or not, I know enough not to judge someone by what he says but by what he does. So far, the organization has dodged the Hank bullet but sooner or later they/re going to take on in the head.
Right. Similarly, if Hank was a paragon of rectitude, we couldn't necessarily rely on that either.
But using your standard, the Yankees diddn't trade for Santana despite Hank's public comments, and Joba is still in the pen.
Don't worry. Be happy.
27IsNext
04-21-08, 07:50 PM
Spiker,
“How can I go any higher?” Steinbrenner said. “What do they want — Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera? I can’t do that kind of thing. It’s crazy. It’s suicidal. In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else, and that’s going to stop. I’ve made the best offer Minnesota is going to get, and the fact is, it’s an offer we can go away happy and they can go away happy.”
--Hank Steinbrenner, on the Twins asking for Hughes and Kennedy for Santana
Source. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/sports/baseball/03yankees.html?ex=1354338000&en=ec2c7f758d83ffc5&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)
"The mistake of trading young pitching," he answered quickly. "It killed me seeing all those young pitchers we traded back then - (Scott) McGregor, (Jose) Rijo, (Doug) Drabek - who went on to have great careers because we just didn't have the patience. If there's one thing that's going to be different between me and my dad it's patience."
[...]
"There's a big difference," Hank countered. "Santana's only 28 and just coming into his prime. I remember consoling Woody when my dad insisted we trade Drabek for (Rick) Rhoden. Rhoden was 32 or 33, but back then that's the way we did things."
--Hank Steinbrenner, on the most important thing he learned from his early days helping his dad run the team
Source. (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/02/2007-12-02_bill_madden_breaks_bread_with_yankees_ne.html?page=1)
Spiker101
04-21-08, 07:52 PM
Don't worry. Be happy.
I'm trying, I'm trying, but he scares me to death. That Cashman had to explain to him that Joba was near his innings count tells me old Hank wasn't paying even a modicum of attention to the team as late as last August. And now the guy, at least nominally, is the boss?
27IsNext
04-21-08, 07:52 PM
Flat-out ignorant or not, I know enough not to judge someone by what he says but by what he does. So far, the organization has dodged the Hank bullet but sooner or later they're going to take one in the head.
I must have missed us trading away any of the youngsters this past offseason.
FWIW, an interview that Peter Abraham did with Cashman recently suggests that George and Randy Levine are the ones he truly reports to.
Well, he shouldn't even be saying that much. Truth is that Joba might have to stay in the pen all season -- if the Yanks are to contend for a title. Good owners should be seen and not heard.
Anything could happen, but Cash has said that the Yankees' mindset is to not merely focus on what will benefit them this season, but the mid to long view as well. So there seems to be an organizational consensus that putting Joba in the rotation at some point this season is in the franchise's best interests going forward.
I'm trying, I'm trying, but he scares me to death. That Cashman had to explain to him that Joba was near his innings count tells me old Hank wasn't paying even a modicum of attention to the team as late as last August. And now the guy, at least nominally, is the boss?
Co-boss:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=ajHh8UflaBrY&refer=home
Steinbrenner Elevates Sons Hank, Hal to Yankees Co-Chairmen
27IsNext
04-21-08, 07:59 PM
Co-boss:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=ajHh8UflaBrY&refer=home
Steinbrenner Elevates Sons Hank, Hal to Yankees Co-Chairmen
As I already said, Abraham's interview with Cashman seems to indicate that George and Levine have more say-so than the two sons right now.
sweet_lou_14
04-21-08, 07:59 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again: this Hank Steinbrenner thing is not going to end well. The man doesn't even understand the significance of counting innings for young pitchers. He belongs nowhere near the levers of power of a major league operation.
I share your worry. The saving grace here, though, is that like any big organization the Yankees simply have too many levels between Hank and what goes on between the lines, or between Hank and what goes on in negotiations between players and teams, for him to make moves on his own. No matter what he tries to dictate, his ideas have to be executed by others. When they resist, there seems to be at least some internal process for talking him down from the ledge. We've seen this process repeat itself on numerous occasions.
That is not to say his behavior doesn't bring huge risks. In approximate order of severity and concern:
1. Brian Cashman and/or other talented front-office people decide they've had enough, and a brain-drain commences. (This is the one that could really bite us ... we'll see next offseason I guess.)
2. Other teams, or agents, decide they don't want to deal with the Hank-led Yankees. (Teams and agents should, in theory, always act in their own best interest ... but I don't believe it always works that way. However, I'm not sure the impact of anti-Yankee sentiment is any greater today than it has been for years and years.)
3. Great players decide they don't want to play for Hank. (Not a factor this past offseason and no evidence that it would become a factor any time soon. For all his other qualities, Hank seems to be his father's son when it comes to writing big checks.)
4. Fans like you and me just feel icky and embarrassed by the guy. (No on-field impact but still reduces my enjoyment of the team.)
As I already said, Abraham's interview with Cashman seems to indicate that George and Levine have more say-so than the two sons right now.
I think any comments that suggest that George actually exercises more power are pro forma.
Spiker101
04-21-08, 08:06 PM
I must have missed us trading away any of the youngsters this past offseason.
.
and ARod stayed despite Hank's huffing and puffing. I understand all that. but I also remember that old George also was reined in early on but eventually he started getting his own way and we know how well that worked out. I hope I'm worrying unnecessarily but everytime that man opens his mouth I get nervous.
Spiker101
04-21-08, 08:08 PM
I
1. Brian Cashman and/or other talented front-office people decide they've had enough, and a brain-drain commences. (This is the one that could really bite us ... we'll see next offseason I guess.)
2. Other teams, or agents, decide they don't want to deal with the Hank-led Yankees. (Teams and agents should, in theory, always act in their own best interest ... but I don't believe it always works that way. However, I'm not sure the impact of anti-Yankee sentiment is any greater today than it has been for years and years.)
3. Great players decide they don't want to play for Hank. (Not a factor this past offseason and no evidence that it would become a factor any time soon. For all his other qualities, Hank seems to be his father's son when it comes to writing big checks.)
4. Fans like you and me just feel icky and embarrassed by the guy. (No on-field impact but still reduces my enjoyment of the team.)
Exactly my concerns as well.
Joba's Rings
04-21-08, 08:12 PM
and ARod stayed despite Hank's huffing and puffing. I understand all that. but I also remember that old George also was reined in early on but eventually he started getting his own way and we know how well that worked out. I hope I'm worrying unnecessarily but everytime that man opens his mouth I get nervous.
Hank huffed and puffed then, as the story has it, he's the one who took A-Rod's phone call right away.
Hank thinks before he speaks. That's all he really seems to do, and he's had plenty of opportunities to actually do or strongly influence things.
sweet_lou_14
04-21-08, 08:27 PM
Hank thinks before he speaks.
No. He definitely speaks before he thinks.
Our only consolation looking backward, and our only hope going forward, is that he thinks before he acts.
(This of course finesses the very real truth that in some cases, speaking is acting.)
Joba's Rings
04-21-08, 08:41 PM
No. He definitely speaks before he thinks.
Our only consolation looking backward, and our only hope going forward, is that he thinks before he acts.
(This of course finesses the very real truth that in some cases, speaking is acting.) I need to proof before I post. :lol:
Of course, I meant to say he speaks before he thinks. So far, though, he seems to think before he acts. Not that he's taken much action other than signing some contracts.
I share your worry. The saving grace here, though, is that like any big organization the Yankees simply have too many levels between Hank and what goes on between the lines, or between Hank and what goes on in negotiations between players and teams, for him to make moves on his own. No matter what he tries to dictate, his ideas have to be executed by others. When they resist, there seems to be at least some internal process for talking him down from the ledge. We've seen this process repeat itself on numerous occasions.
That is not to say his behavior doesn't bring huge risks. In approximate order of severity and concern:
1. Brian Cashman and/or other talented front-office people decide they've had enough, and a brain-drain commences. (This is the one that could really bite us ... we'll see next offseason I guess.)
2. Other teams, or agents, decide they don't want to deal with the Hank-led Yankees. (Teams and agents should, in theory, always act in their own best interest ... but I don't believe it always works that way. However, I'm not sure the impact of anti-Yankee sentiment is any greater today than it has been for years and years.)
3. Great players decide they don't want to play for Hank. (Not a factor this past offseason and no evidence that it would become a factor any time soon. For all his other qualities, Hank seems to be his father's son when it comes to writing big checks.)
4. Fans like you and me just feel icky and embarrassed by the guy. (No on-field impact but still reduces my enjoyment of the team.)
You could be right, but here's an alternative view:
1. a. The same thing was said about Cash leaving following the 2005 season, yet he decided to stay despite not having the ally in Hal that he apparently has now.
b. Money still talks, and the Yankees will pay up to keep Cashman, Oppenheimer, Newman, et. al.
c. Also, these guys have now assembled an incredible farm system. My guess is that they want to see their hard work reach fruition.
2. There has long been a "Yankee tax" on many deals, e.g., see what the Sox paid for Schilliong or the Mets paid for Santana compared to what the Yankees were asked to pay. That's why the Yankees are justified to use their financial advantage in other areas, like the draft.
See. 1. b.
3. Players want to play on winning teams that pay a lot of money. The Yankees will be a winning team over the next five years because of theiir highly rated farm system, and A-Rod, Jeter, Joba, Cano, and Hughes as well.
4. Many fans are idiots. As long as the Yankees stick to the current plan, they will be fine.
The Q Bomb
04-21-08, 08:53 PM
Flat-out ignorant or not, I know enough not to judge someone by what he says but by what he does. So far, the organization has dodged the Hank bullet but sooner or later they're going to take one in the head. You judge people both by what they say and do. So far Hank hasn't done anything wrong but he has said plenty wrong - which makes him and the organization look assinine. Like I said, if he wants to comment day by day on peripheral issues - fine. What I have a problem with is when he comments publicly on organizational issues that should be discussed internally and remain internal issues except for the end decision.
sweet_lou_14
04-21-08, 09:05 PM
You could be right, but here's an alternative view:
1. a. The same thing was said about Cash leaving following the 2005 season, yet he decided to stay despite not having the ally in Hal that he apparently has now.
b. Money still talks, and the Yankees will pay up to keep Cashman, Oppenheimer, Newman, et. al.
c. Also, these guys have now assembled an incredible farm system. My guess is that they want to see their hard work reach fruition.
2. There has long been a "Yankee tax" on many deals, e.g., see what the Sox paid for Schilliong or the Mets paid for Santana compared to what the Yankees were asked to pay. That's why the Yankees are justified to use their financial advantage in other areas, like the draft.
See. 1. b.
3. Players want to play on winning teams that pay a lot of money. The Yankees will be a winning team over the next five years because of theiir highly rated farm system, and A-Rod, Jeter, Joba, Cano, and Hughes as well.
4. Many fans are idiots. As long as the Yankees stick to the current plan, they will be fine.
Only problem I have with your post is the implication that fans who squirm every time Hank opens his mouth are idiots.
cyhughes22
04-21-08, 09:06 PM
It's one thing for Hank to be loud and obnoxious but today he sounded really really stupid. Not just loud and obnoxious but incredibly stupid. Displaying that you have no idea of how baseball works and don't understand that 22 year old pitchers aren't robots that you can run out there for any number of innings when you are the co-chairman of the biggest franchise in the world is remarkably stupid. I tell you, Hank is one sneaky bastard because every time I start to like him a little he comes out of nowhere and makes me despise him. You can like a loudmouth. You can like an obnoxious person. You can like a loud obnoxious person. But I know I personally can't like a loud obnoxious person who is this incredibly stupid, and I haven't even gotten into how stupid it is to say that in the press when you could upset your GM. Ahh well I made my point, I'll just try to pretend Hank doesn't exist.
Only problem I have with your post is the implication that fans who squirm every time Hank opens his mouth are idiots.
Perhaps I was unclear, if so, my bad.
My point wasn't made in reference to people who are reacting to Hank's comments. It's about the people who are calling the talk shows and asking for Cashman's head because Hughes and IPK aren't performing by mid-April, while simultaneously blaming Cash for not having developed young pitchers prior to now. So it was just a general point.
The Q Bomb
04-21-08, 09:13 PM
It's one thing for Hank to be loud and obnoxious but today he sounded really really stupid. Not just loud and obnoxious but incredibly stupid. Displaying that you have no idea of how baseball works and don't understand that 22 year old pitchers aren't robots that you can run out there for any number of innings when you are the co-chairman of the biggest franchise in the world is remarkably stupid. I tell you, Hank is one sneaky bastard because every time I start to like him a little he comes out of nowhere and makes me despise him. You can like a loudmouth. You can like an obnoxious person. You can like a loud obnoxious person. But I know I personally can't like a loud obnoxious person who is this incredibly stupid, and I haven't even gotten into how stupid it is to say that in the press when you could upset your GM. Ahh well I made my point, I'll just try to pretend Hank doesn't exist. I wonder if there is anyone around Hank, like Hal perhaps, who would be willing to enlighten him as to how stupid he looks. Apparently not.
Yankees1962
04-21-08, 09:41 PM
You could be right, but here's an alternative view:
1. a. The same thing was said about Cash leaving following the 2005 season, yet he decided to stay despite not having the ally in Hal that he apparently has now.
b. Money still talks, and the Yankees will pay up to keep Cashman, Oppenheimer, Newman, et. al.
c. Also, these guys have now assembled an incredible farm system. My guess is that they want to see their hard work reach fruition.
2. There has long been a "Yankee tax" on many deals, e.g., see what the Sox paid for Schilliong or the Mets paid for Santana compared to what the Yankees were asked to pay. That's why the Yankees are justified to use their financial advantage in other areas, like the draft.
See. 1. b.
3. Players want to play on winning teams that pay a lot of money. The Yankees will be a winning team over the next five years because of theiir highly rated farm system, and A-Rod, Jeter, Joba, Cano, and Hughes as well.
4. Many fans are idiots. As long as the Yankees stick to the current plan, they will be fine.
Rich,
Don't forget Cash had Swindal as an ally back in 2005 and from all accounts they were on the same page on most matters. However, I do get your point that perhaps Hal is the latest version of Swindal for Cashman.
I think many of those concerned about Hank's comments are those of us that have lived through Papa Steinbrenner's worse days back in the day and are fearful of a repeat. When George bought the team he declared he would be a hands off owner which we know never happened. He always thought he knew baseball, but in reality knew very little which overall has hurt his team over the years. It remains to be seen how Hank or Hal evolves as Yankee owners, but they do appear to at least listen to their baseball people which is a plus. I just wish Hank would think before he opens his mouth because it would save his GM some energy from dealing with the distractions he has caused them such as the one today.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-21-08, 09:45 PM
and ARod stayed despite Hank's huffing and puffing. I understand all that. but I also remember that old George also was reined in early on but eventually he started getting his own way and we know how well that worked out. I hope I'm worrying unnecessarily but everytime that man opens his mouth I get nervous.
I think its kinda silly to compare George to Hank. Keep this in mind as well, Hank only controls half the team.
President Kennedy
04-21-08, 09:51 PM
You could be right, but here's an alternative view:
1. a. The same thing was said about Cash leaving following the 2005 season, yet he decided to stay despite not having the ally in Hal that he apparently has now.
b. Money still talks, and the Yankees will pay up to keep Cashman, Oppenheimer, Newman, et. al.
c. Also, these guys have now assembled an incredible farm system. My guess is that they want to see their hard work reach fruition.
2. There has long been a "Yankee tax" on many deals, e.g., see what the Sox paid for Schilliong or the Mets paid for Santana compared to what the Yankees were asked to pay. That's why the Yankees are justified to use their financial advantage in other areas, like the draft.
See. 1. b.
3. Players want to play on winning teams that pay a lot of money. The Yankees will be a winning team over the next five years because of theiir highly rated farm system, and A-Rod, Jeter, Joba, Cano, and Hughes as well.
4. Many fans are idiots. As long as the Yankees stick to the current plan, they will be fine.
Bravo! Fantastic points all around. The reaction to Hank's comments has been so out of proportion to what he actually said, and more importantly to what's actually taken place on the field. People worrying that he's going to be "George Jr." aren't really reacting to what's actually happening.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/sports/baseball/21pins.html?_r=1&ref=baseball&oref=slogin
"I want him as a starter and so does everyone else, including him, and that is what we are working toward and we need him there now,” Steinbrenner (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/george_m_steinbrenner_iii/index.html?inline=nyt-per) said Sunday by telephone. “There is no question about it, you don’t have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a setup guy. You just don’t do that. You have to be an idiot to do that.”
Does anyone have a problem with this last sentence? Does Brian Cashman have a problem with this sentence? Does anyone think that Brian Cashman thinks that Hank is calling him an idiot?
Perhaps it's all taken out of context? Maybe Hank was just speaking in general terms, rather than pointing a finger at anyone?
I suppose this will be what to expect every time there's an off day ?? :)
President Kennedy
04-21-08, 10:20 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/sports/baseball/21pins.html?_r=1&ref=baseball&oref=slogin
"I want him as a starter and so does everyone else, including him, and that is what we are working toward and we need him there now,” Steinbrenner (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/george_m_steinbrenner_iii/index.html?inline=nyt-per) said Sunday by telephone. “There is no question about it, you don’t have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a setup guy. You just don’t do that. You have to be an idiot to do that.”
Does anyone have a problem with this last sentence? Does Brian Cashman have a problem with this sentence?
Perhaps it's all taken out of context? Maybe Hank was just speaking in general terms, rather than pointing a finger at anyone?
I suppose this will be what to expect every time there's an off day ?? :)
He's saying anyone that would keep Joba in the bullpen is an idiot. Cashman has made it clear that he has no intention of keeping Chamberlain as a reliever, so I don't think Hank's comments were pointed at anyone in the organization, who all seem to agree on what Joba's role will be ultimately.
I suppose I just like the drama of it all
TEPLimey
04-21-08, 10:49 PM
Look at this mountain.
http://www.thriftyfun.com/images/articles21/molehill300x199.jpg
Hank has done nothing wrong.
'Cept opened his big flapper, called his management idiots and then alienated Mussina. You're right he didn't do anything :P
'Cept opened his big flapper, called his management idiots and then alienated Mussina. You're right he didn't do anything :P
I think there is a distinction between doing something wrong and saying something wrong. To this point, Hank has only done the latter.
The Q Bomb
04-22-08, 06:05 AM
Saying something wrong is doing something wrong. I don't know where folks get the notion that what you say is not important.
There's a couple of things wrong with what Hank did and does on a fairly routine basis - whether Cashman thinks Hank was calling him an idiot or not (and he'd have to be an idiot not to think he was the noun in reference) the rest of the world thinks so. Would anyone here be happy if their peers or colleagues thought your boss thought you were an idiot? Secondly, Hank's statement was all over the news last night and tonight. Is that what you want your team headlining sports news with - whether your owner thinks your general manager is an idiot? And, again, most importantly - why telegraph your internal "discussions" (disagreements) to the entire world, including your opponents?
Hank is an idiot. He truly fits Mark Twain's saying, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
Joba's Rings
04-22-08, 06:34 AM
I think there is a distinction between doing something wrong and saying something wrong. To this point, Hank has only done the latter.
Bingo. I really don't understand why people are getting all worked up about this.
I'd be a lot more concerned if we were seeing Hughes, Kennedy & Melky in Twins uniforms and hearing - yes, just hearing - about how maybe Joba should stay in the bullpen because, you know, how could all those guys in the media be wrong?
Joba's Rings
04-22-08, 06:38 AM
There's a couple of things wrong with what Hank did and does on a fairly routine basis - whether Cashman thinks Hank was calling him an idiot or not (and he'd have to be an idiot not to think he was the noun in reference) the rest of the world thinks so. What a bizarre generalization. You could not be more wrong here.
If you read the end of the Times article and the sh**storm that followed, you'd see that in no way was Hank referring to Cashman. He was clearly referring to the many, many other people outside of the organization who want to see Joba in the bullpen.
How you could miss that is beyond me. Unless, of course, you wanted to.
To me Hank just adds another level of entertainment to being a Yankees fan. I enjoy reading his quotes. We have been knocked out of the playoffs in the first round so many times now that I am not sweating the little stuff. This will be a fun year to watch our team, even if we don't make the playoffs. As for Hank's wishes....he does own the team, so pretty much Cash needs to get on his page, not the other way around.
I think there is a distinction between doing something wrong and saying something wrong. To this point, Hank has only done the latter.
This is just the continuation of the "we're doomed" line of posts that started in the offseason with " if we fire Torre, we won't sign any of the free agents " followed by the " Hank is George Jr, and will gut the farm system for over aged useless players and we're gonna return to the ugly '80's"
We are positioned very well- and with the gusher of money from the new stadium we'll be even better off
Losing Cashman would not be a death blow and could possibly be a big plus depending on who his replacement is
Midget effeminate Sawx fans who don't attend games but have sports columns have been heard from. This kerfuffle must've interrupted a dance recital or a quilting party at the Lupica household, or another Lulu family appearance on "The Barefoot Contessa"(the large woman knows pitching!). If Lulu thinks Hank Steinbrenner is wrong, I'd bet he's probably right. Keep in mind the timetable is the only thing really at issue, since everyone in the Yankee organization hopes to get Joba in the rotation at some point.The rest is details-
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/04/21/2008-04-21_cranky_hank_steinbrenner_demands_his_way.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/04/21/2008-04-21_cranky_hank_steinbrenner_demands_his_way.html)
fritz kekich
04-22-08, 08:23 AM
Saying something wrong is doing something wrong. I don't know where folks get the notion that what you say is not important.
There's a couple of things wrong with what Hank did and does on a fairly routine basis - whether Cashman thinks Hank was calling him an idiot or not (and he'd have to be an idiot not to think he was the noun in reference) the rest of the world thinks so. Would anyone here be happy if their peers or colleagues thought your boss thought you were an idiot? Secondly, Hank's statement was all over the news last night and tonight. Is that what you want your team headlining sports news with - whether your owner thinks your general manager is an idiot? And, again, most importantly - why telegraph your internal "discussions" (disagreements) to the entire world, including your opponents?
Hank is an idiot. He truly fits Mark Twain's saying, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
I think this is exactly right. What other baseball owner says ANYTHING about personnel moves as specific as what Hankie said. A team cannot function well for long if the organization has more than one voice speaking. What other owners have made such comments about players? It seems that the teams that have had success have owners that--even if they are flamboyant or newsworthy--simply stay away from anything other than bland, "I support our boys" kind of stuff.
Put another way, can someone please answer this: "What good could possibly have resulted from Hankie's comments?" I think the answer is "none." Thus, he should not have opened his mouth. If someone can hypothesize some good that might have resulted, I'm all ears.
hank is a big dark cloud out on the horizon. you don't know if it's going to F up your day or not...but there it sits.
Dog Named Fred
04-22-08, 08:54 AM
hank is a big dark cloud out on the horizon. you don't know if it's going to F up your day or not...but there it sits.
I think it's when, not if.
yankeeman61
04-22-08, 08:55 AM
The fact that Cashman was blindsided by these comments and had to do a follow up call with Hank to educate him on last year's strategy with Joba reminds me of a parent teaching his kid how to gather all the facts and think before he speaks. The entire episode was unnecessary and did not serve the best interests of the team. It was just another immature and thoughtless rant that is becoming the SOP implemented by Hank. Nobody should be surprised by this and attempting to defend Hank is indefensible IMO. Cashman has more important things to address with this team than spending time doing damage control. If the Yankees continue to flounder for another month and fall further behind, what's next Hank?
Ynkcpt23
04-22-08, 09:13 AM
The fact that Cashman was blindsided by these comments and had to do a follow up call with Hank to educate him on last year's strategy with Joba reminds me of a parent teaching his kid how to gather all the facts and think before he speaks. The entire episode was unnecessary and did not serve the best interests of the team. It was just another immature and thoughtless rant that is becoming the SOP implemented by Hank. Nobody should be surprised by this and attempting to defend Hank is indefensible IMO. Cashman has more important things to address with this team than spending time doing damage control. If the Yankees continue to flounder for another month and fall further behind, what's next Hank?
Yeah, my first thought last night (after hearing Cashman's response) was this picture in my head of Hank as a bulldog who's s*** in the house and Cash closing on him with a rolled up newspaper.
Hank may be entertaining. What he said was thoroughly useless. Also unconvincing and potentially detrimental to the team. If you don't have anything useful to do other than vent, why don't you vent in front of a mirror and notice just how stupid you look.
fritz kekich
04-22-08, 09:27 AM
Yeah, my first thought last night (after hearing Cashman's response) was this picture in my head of Hank as a bulldog who's s*** in the house and Cash closing on him with a rolled up newspaper.
Hank may be entertaining. What he said was thoroughly useless. Also unconvincing and potentially detrimental to the team. If you don't have anything useful to do other than vent, why don't you vent in front of a mirror and notice just how stupid you look.
Right again. And though it may be literally true, "that he didn't do anything," (as opposed to just saying something), this episode says something about who Hankie is. There are no certainties in these things, but it certainly seems reasonable that a guy who talks this irresponsibly THREE WEEKS into his first season ("irresponsibly" within the context of his baseball team), will, at some point, act equally irresponsibly.
That's what has fans concerned.
Have we forgotten that George fired Yogi 16 games into the '85 season?
yankeebot
04-22-08, 09:32 AM
Right again. And though it may be literally true, "that he didn't do anything," (as opposed to just saying something), this episode says something about who Hankie is. There are no certainties in these things, but it certainly seems reasonable that a guy who talks this irresponsibly THREE WEEKS into his first season ("irresponsibly" within the context of his baseball team), will, at some point, act equally irresponsibly.
That's what has fans concerned.
Have we forgotten that George fired Yogi 16 games into the '85 season? Based on Hank's very short track record to date, I don't find it even remotely reasonable to think he's going to act irresponsibly nor do I see any parallel between George firing Yogi and Hank making a not very well thought out comment. All I'm seeing is a total overreaction by fans and media.
fritz kekich
04-22-08, 10:20 AM
Based on Hank's very short track record to date, I don't find it even remotely reasonable to think he's going to act irresponsibly nor do I see any parallel between George firing Yogi and Hank making a not very well thought out comment. All I'm seeing is a total overreaction by fans and media.
We'll disagree as to what we think is a "reasonable expectation" based on Hankie's "track record."
But as for the overreaction, I think you've made the exact opposite point you intended. This isn't Kansas City. "Overreaction" by fans and media is not unexpected to anyone with even an iota of intelligence or exposure to the NY fans and media. To me, that makes it even more important that Hankie keep it zipped. That he doesn't realize this is, to me, a clear indication of a lack of common sense. How hard is it to understand, "Since everything I say will likely be taken out of context and make my GMs job a bit harder, I shouldn't say anything remotely resembling a personnel suggestion."?
Patience.....ya thats working out really well..........FIRE CASHMAN....GET THEO
You mean the GM of the World Champion Boston Red Sox who has, well, shown patience with his franchise.
You could be right, but here's an alternative view:
c. Also, these guys have now assembled an incredible farm system. My guess is that they want to see their hard work reach fruition.
One comment here. I think that before we can declare the farm system completely healthy we need to see some more position players come to the fore. There system still needs some work there.
yankeebot
04-22-08, 10:28 AM
We'll disagree as to what we think is a "reasonable expectation" based on Hankie's "track record."
But as for the overreaction, I think you've made the exact opposite point you intended. This isn't Kansas City. "Overreaction" by fans and media is not unexpected to anyone with even an iota of intelligence or exposure to the NY fans and media. To me, that makes it even more important that Hankie keep it zipped. That he doesn't realize this is, to me, a clear indication of a lack of common sense. How hard is it to understand, "Since everything I say will likely be taken out of context and make my GMs job a bit harder, I shouldn't say anything remotely resembling a personnel suggestion."?No. I think my point is exactly as I intended. I think everyone would prefer that Hank say less but as I've said prior, until there is some concrete evidence that anything Hank says is making a difference on the field, I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over it. I'm not even convinced that it makes the GM's job harder. The Yankees are always under a microscope. If the press isn't focused on what Hank said, they're simply going to focus on something else. I have a lot more faith in Cash and company's ability to handle the media pressure than a lot of people here seem to have. Compared to the media pressure surrounding Arod in 2006, this is peanuts.
OldYankeeFan
04-22-08, 10:44 AM
Based on Hank's very short track record to date, I don't find it even remotely reasonable to think he's going to act irresponsibly nor do I see any parallel between George firing Yogi and Hank making a not very well thought out comment. All I'm seeing is a total overreaction by fans and media.
I agree. But the overreaction keeps the Yankees at the forefront of the news and from a marketing perspective that is not a bad thing for the Yankees. At this point I really don't think anything Hank says has an effect on the team or management. For Hank not to know the reason for Joba going to the pen last year (nearing his innings cap) just shows his total lack of understanding and the reason that the team is in fact run by Cashman with Hal's backing and with Hank's contribution keeping the Yankees on the backpage with his unfiltered responce to any question asked of him by the media.
Ynkcpt23
04-22-08, 10:46 AM
No. I think my point is exactly as I intended. I think everyone would prefer that Hank say less but as I've said prior, until there is some concrete evidence that anything Hank says is making a difference on the field, I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over it. I'm not even convinced that it makes the GM's job harder. The Yankees are always under a microscope. If the press isn't focused on what Hank said, they're simply going to focus on something else. I have a lot more faith in Cash and company's ability to handle the media pressure than a lot of people here seem to have. Compared to the media pressure surrounding Arod in 2006, this is peanuts.
Good point. I just am not a big fan of the big lug foaming at the mouth for no particular reason 3 weeks into the season.
Ynkcpt23
04-22-08, 10:47 AM
I agree. But the overreaction keeps the Yankees at the forefront of the news and from a marketing perspective that is not a bad thing for the Yankees. At this point I really don't think anything Hank says has an effect on the team or management. For Hank not to know the reason for Joba going to the pen last year (nearing his innings cap) just shows his total lack of understanding and the reason that the team is in fact run by Cashman with Hal's backing and with Hank's contribution keeping the Yankees on the backpage with his unfiltered responce to any question asked of him by the media.
Maybe he's a misunderstood genius keeping the heat off of Cash and Hal?? Naw, that can't be it, could it? :eek:
27IsNext
04-22-08, 10:56 AM
"I do know for a fact that Farnsworth did not intend to throw it exactly where it went, that close to behind his head," Steinbrenner said. "That's not what he intended. I thought Manny handled it with class, his response. Kyle is doing his job, backing his team. But he did not intend to put it in that spot."
Source. (http://www.theledger.com/article/20080422/NEWS/804220467/1344/SPORTS03)
How underwhelming.
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-22-08, 10:57 AM
Source. (http://www.theledger.com/article/20080422/NEWS/804220467/1344/SPORTS03)
How underwhelming.
How could Kyle be backing his team and not intend to throw at Manny at the same time?
EDIT: Nevermind, I think he is saying he is backing his team by throwing at Manny but didn't try to hit him in the head.
sweet_lou_14
04-22-08, 11:03 AM
Source. (http://www.theledger.com/article/20080422/NEWS/804220467/1344/SPORTS03)
How underwhelming.
God damn it, when is this idiot going to STFU?
TEPLimey
04-22-08, 11:03 AM
How could Kyle be backing his team and not intend to throw at Manny at the same time?
EDIT: Nevermind, I think he is saying he is backing his team by throwing at Manny but didn't try to hit him in the head.
My sources tell me that Kyle was actually aiming for Youk's head in the batters box.
yankeeman61
04-22-08, 11:10 AM
My sources tell me that Kyle was actually aiming for Youk's head in the batters box.
Do you really think it requires aim to be able to hit Youk's dome?
TEPLimey
04-22-08, 11:28 AM
Do you really think it requires aim to be able to hit Youk's dome?
If you are going to avoid the ball getting caught on the beaver's dam on his chin, then yes. It looks like his continually in the process of swallowing Bob Ross whole.
Ynkcpt23
04-22-08, 11:32 AM
If you are going to avoid the ball getting caught on the beaver's dam on his chin, then yes. It looks like his continually in the process of swallowing Bob Ross whole.
:lol: :-rofl-: Holy crap that's funny!!^^
ICEBERG18
04-22-08, 02:42 PM
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/Hank_Theyve_got_me_all_wrong.html
teknetic
04-22-08, 02:53 PM
Does this mean Cashman won't be GM'ing the Nationals next year?
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-22-08, 02:54 PM
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/Hank_Theyve_got_me_all_wrong.html
"At the end of the day, we know we can't rush into it," Steinbrenner said of a Chamberlain role change. "I've made that very clear to everybody. [The timetable] is up to Joe [Girardi], and [pitching coach] Dave [Eiland], and Brian, and [instructor] Nardi [Contreras] and all our experts. They're all in agreement with me. And I'm the one who originally suggested that he should be a starter."
:lol: Oh Hanky.
Yankees1962
04-22-08, 02:55 PM
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/Hank_Theyve_got_me_all_wrong.html
I've heard some things about Hank today from Kevin Kernan that has given me reason to ease up on my criticism of him. According to Kernan, Hanks loves to see minor league players developed and is much more aware of the value of a great minor league system than his father. He's a regular guy that sometimes talks too much which I hope he learns to curb some as he settles in as co-owner in charge of the ballclub.
Yankees1962
04-22-08, 02:56 PM
Does this mean Cashman won't be GM'ing the Nationals next year?
Or the Dodgers, his boyhood favorite team.
yankeebot
04-22-08, 02:57 PM
[/b]
:lol: Oh Hanky.
He's like the crazy uncle I never had. :lol:
Bologma!
04-22-08, 03:02 PM
He's like the crazy uncle I never had. :lol:
hilarious
JavyVazquezIsSick
04-22-08, 03:07 PM
He's like the crazy uncle I never had. :lol:
Exactly. Its like when you bring a guest over the house and they are all shocked/appauled (the media), and everyone (Cash and Hal) are like, don't worry about him, thats just crazy Uncle Hank.
Ynkcpt23
04-22-08, 03:10 PM
Exactly. Its like when you bring a guest over the house and they are all shocked/appauled (the media), and everyone (Cash and Hal) are like, don't worry about him, thats just crazy Uncle Hank.
continued with: "he's not usually this bad but he's been off his meds..."
OldYankeeFan
04-22-08, 03:24 PM
He's like the crazy uncle I never had. :lol:
You nailed it, Crazy Uncle Hank. No one takes him real serious but he is very entertaining.
4bronxbombers
04-22-08, 03:28 PM
Do you really think it requires aim to be able to hit Youk's dome?
:lol:
Pinstripedbass
04-22-08, 03:38 PM
and ARod stayed despite Hank's huffing and puffing. I understand all that. but I also remember that old George also was reined in early on but eventually he started getting his own way and we know how well that worked out. I hope I'm worrying unnecessarily but everytime that man opens his mouth I get nervous.
So do I.
Anyone who lived through George Steinbrenner 1982-1993 feels the same way.
Pinstripedbass
04-22-08, 03:45 PM
'Cept opened his big flapper, called his management idiots and then alienated Mussina. You're right he didn't do anything :P
Not to mention the media circus being set in motion, Brian Cashman having to do damage control, Joe Girardi having to answer stupid questions from the media over and over again and the general unease in the clubhouse.
Does anyone think these are GOOD things?
Ynkcpt23
04-22-08, 03:47 PM
So do I.
Anyone who lived through George Steinbrenner 1982-1993 feels the same way.
God yes. Now we have a plan, it's sensible and it's proven to work. One thing that made me so proud of the late '90s teams was all the home grown talent. Then you surround them with terrific players with even better attitudes (e.g. O'Neill, Brosius) and go out and kick a**. How did that come about? George was forced away for long enough to reload our minor league system and not just trade away the Drabeks etc. like before.
justtxyank
04-22-08, 03:47 PM
Not to mention the media circus being set in motion, Brian Cashman having to do damage control, Joe Girardi having to answer stupid questions from the media over and over again and the general unease in the clubhouse.
Does anyone think these are GOOD things?
1) Oh well
2) Oh well
3) Completely unsubstantiated
Ynkcpt23
04-22-08, 03:47 PM
Not to mention the media circus being set in motion, Brian Cashman having to do damage control, Joe Girardi having to answer stupid questions from the media over and over again and the general unease in the clubhouse.
Does anyone think these are GOOD things?
Only if this is as bad as it gets...:upset:
Ynkcpt23
04-22-08, 03:48 PM
1) Oh well
2) Oh well
3) Completely unsubstantiated
Good response--blown way out of proportion.
b-ball-lunachick
04-22-08, 03:56 PM
He's like the crazy uncle I never had. :lol:
:lol: he really is. :D
I heard Olney on with Mike and Mike and he said that everyone who deals directly with Hank has nothing but really nice things to say and that he's a really good guy...which was good to hear. :)
the guy just doesn't have a filter. :D
Pinstripedbass
04-22-08, 03:59 PM
I think its kinda silly to compare George to Hank. Keep this in mind as well, Hank only controls half the team.
And George Steinbrenner started out as a partner in 1973.:-whistle-
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Yankees1962
04-22-08, 04:04 PM
I heard Olney on with Mike and Mike and he said that everyone who deals directly with Hank has nothing but really nice things to say and that he's a really good guy...which was good to hear. :)
the guy just doesn't have a filter. :D
That's what Kernan said about him today too.
Yankees1962
04-22-08, 04:05 PM
And George Steinbrenner started out as a partner in 1973.:-whistle-
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
It remains to be seen whether Hank has the mean streak his father was famous for having. Also, from what was said today about the brothers, Hal is the financial wiz of the two while Hank is more of the spokesperson for the family. If true, be careful about the quiet ones that handle the monies for the family.:)
Pinstripedbass
04-22-08, 04:29 PM
1) Oh well
2) Oh well
3) Completely unsubstantiated
Oh well???
Chit happens, right?
Pinstripedbass
04-22-08, 04:30 PM
George was forced away for long enough to reload our minor league system and not just trade away the Drabeks etc. like before.
Bingo.
justtxyank
04-22-08, 04:32 PM
Oh well???
Chit happens, right?
Oh well as in it isn't a good thing, but it has very little real impact on anything. Sucks for Girardi and Cashman if they have to answer some questions, but they are well compensated for it and I'm sure they will accept the burden of dealing with questions spawned by their boss as long as the pay stays good. It isn't like the team is going to lose a game today because Cashman had to answer a question.
So, oh well.
President Kennedy
04-22-08, 04:34 PM
And George Steinbrenner started out as a partner in 1973.:-whistle-
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
And what would you like us to do about Hank, specifically?
Pinstripedbass
04-22-08, 04:34 PM
It remains to be seen whether Hank has the mean streak his father was famous for having.
Remember the old line about being a part-owner of the Yankees...
"There's nothing more limited than being a limited partner of George Steinbrenner's".
Pinstripedbass
04-22-08, 04:41 PM
Oh well as in it isn't a good thing, but it has very little real impact on anything. Sucks for Girardi and Cashman if they have to answer some questions, but they are well compensated for it and I'm sure they will accept the burden of dealing with questions spawned by their boss as long as the pay stays good. It isn't like the team is going to lose a game today because Cashman had to answer a question.
So, oh well.
It isn't a good thing, but it's foolish to think these things have no or little impact on the team and just wave it off. And I agree that Girardi and Cashman will deal with it as professionally as they can, but I don't believe that money is the salve for all ills. And I agree that the team isn't going to lose a game today because Cashman has to answer a question, but it does give a sense of unstability around the team and the players do sense that. Things around here don't happen in a vacuum.
Pinstripedbass
04-22-08, 04:42 PM
And what would you like us to do about Hank, specifically?
There's nothing you can do but hope that Hank turns out to be all bluster and nothing else.
Does anyone know anything about Moose commenting on Hank's Joba comments?
President Kennedy
04-22-08, 04:47 PM
There's nothing you can do but hope that Hank turns out to be all bluster and nothing else.
Well, when something detrimental actually does occur to the team as a result of Hank, I'll remind myself to be concerned.
TEPLimey
04-22-08, 04:58 PM
Well, when something detrimental actually does occur to the team as a result of Hank, I'll remind myself to be concerned.
Its amazing that we can disagree so vehemently on some topics, but here you couldn't be more correct.
Yankees1962
04-22-08, 06:45 PM
Remember the old line about being a part-owner of the Yankees...
"There's nothing more limited than being a limited partner of George Steinbrenner's".
What does that have to do with what's happening today?
The Q Bomb
04-22-08, 06:52 PM
On the other hand... I do like what Hank said about the Farnsworth/Manny situation. (Of course, how he knows "for a fact" is debatable...)
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">"I do know for a fact that Farnsworth did not intend to throw it exactly where it went, that close to behind his head," Steinbrenner said. "That's not what he intended. I thought Manny handled it with class, his response. Kyle is doing his job, backing his team. But he did not intend to put it in that spot." </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Joba's Rings
04-22-08, 07:27 PM
Well, when something detrimental actually does occur to the team as a result of Hank, I'll remind myself to be concerned. THANK YOU.
I can't believe all the fearmongering and "oh noes we have another King George" stuff I'm reading with absolutely nothing to go by than cherry-picked quotes. (Because, as we've seen, there are plenty of quotes from Hank himself that make it clear he "gets it" about Joba, other young players, and even the mistakes his dad made.)
I wonder if these same posters were also convinced the sky was going to fall when Torre left, like so many fans and so much of the media. I'd look, but...nah.
Not to mention the media circus being set in motion, Brian Cashman having to do damage control, Joe Girardi having to answer stupid questions from the media over and over again and the general unease in the clubhouse.
Does anyone think these are GOOD things?As has been pointed out before-what evidence other than conjecture and speculation is there that the team is somehow impacted by this, negatively or positively? None! Is the spectre of Joel Sherman and his notepad or Anthony Fucilli with his microphone going to cause these guys some awful sleepless nights and coniptions? Girardi has been a MLB catcher and has a degree in engineering from Northwestern. The guy, what ever you think of him, is a rock(in fairness much the same could be said of Torre, may be moresaeo the longer he was here). This is not 1978 with Billy Martin boozing in the dugout and the Old Man going bat___ in the owner's box. Cashmn has been around here along time, and I don't think he's looking to crawl under a rock either.
These are grown men and this is their job. And none of these guys slogged away through the minors and before to claw themselves to a MLB roster spot or into a GM or managing spot by being a wilting violet. I think too often we see the reaction of media darlings like Mike Lupica and think because we read it the players, GMs and caoches give a damn. I suspect most don't, it's just noise they filter out.
Further, the stated policy of this franchise is that at some point this year Joba will be in the rotation, the rest is details. Hank may be a goofball, but one who understands you don't trade away good young arms. And that's what really matters.
montrealer
04-22-08, 08:35 PM
He`s "The Uncle" that everybody dreads at holidays.
ChinMusic
04-22-08, 09:27 PM
He`s "The Uncle" that everybody dreads at holidays.
Maybe Uncle Hank could sit with Uncle Reverend Wright at the kiddy's table.
Joba's Rings
04-22-08, 09:30 PM
He`s "The Uncle" that everybody dreads at holidays. The problem with that analogy is not too many of those guys have a pile of money, are willing to spend it pretty freely, at worst say the right things the wrong way and don't actually do anything wrong.
Usually the "uncles" you're referring to are drunken, slurring messes.
OldYankeeFan
04-23-08, 07:13 AM
He`s "The Uncle" that everybody dreads at holidays.
Let me make sure we are talking about the same uncle.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend more than anyone else for international signings and overslot draftpicks.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend the money (including the extra luxury tax) to acquire players like Johan Santana.
The Uncle Hank that I know has stated publicly that he disagreed with his father and WANTS a more homegrown team.
Please, if you know of a better uncle (baseball owner) than that tell me who it is. If not can we stop bashing him every time he is interviewed and speaks unfiltered (that's the crazy uncle part). So what? I can understand the media jumping all over his statements and giving him (and the Yankees) massive air time and back page coverage...that is what his statements are meant to do. It's FREE publicity for the Yankees and Uncle Hank is very good at getting it.
Let me make sure we are talking about the same uncle.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend more than anyone else for international signings and overslot draftpicks.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend the money (including the extra luxury tax) to acquire players like Johan Santana.
The Uncle Hank that I know has stated publicly that he disagreed with his father and WANTS a more homegrown team.
Please, if you know of a better uncle (baseball owner) than that tell me who it is. If not can we stop bashing him every time he is interviewed and speaks unfiltered (that's the crazy uncle part). So what? I can understand the media jumping all over his statements and giving him (and the Yankees) massive air time and back page coverage...that is what his statements are meant to do. It's FREE publicity for the Yankees and Uncle Hank is very good at getting it.
GREAT post :clap: :clap: :clap:
sweet_lou_14
04-23-08, 08:17 AM
Let me make sure we are talking about the same uncle.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend more than anyone else for international signings and overslot draftpicks.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend the money (including the extra luxury tax) to acquire players like Johan Santana.
The Uncle Hank that I know has stated publicly that he disagreed with his father and WANTS a more homegrown team.
Please, if you know of a better uncle (baseball owner) than that tell me who it is. If not can we stop bashing him every time he is interviewed and speaks unfiltered (that's the crazy uncle part). So what? I can understand the media jumping all over his statements and giving him (and the Yankees) massive air time and back page coverage...that is what his statements are meant to do. It's FREE publicity for the Yankees and Uncle Hank is very good at getting it.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But it is simply inexcusable for him to make comments about players on the field (like calling out Papelbon or discussing whether or not Farnsworth intended to hit Manny while the appeal is still pending).
That stuff has to stop.
YankeePride1967
04-23-08, 08:47 AM
Let me make sure we are talking about the same uncle.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend more than anyone else for international signings and overslot draftpicks.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend the money (including the extra luxury tax) to acquire players like Johan Santana.
The Uncle Hank that I know has stated publicly that he disagreed with his father and WANTS a more homegrown team.
Please, if you know of a better uncle (baseball owner) than that tell me who it is. If not can we stop bashing him every time he is interviewed and speaks unfiltered (that's the crazy uncle part). So what? I can understand the media jumping all over his statements and giving him (and the Yankees) massive air time and back page coverage...that is what his statements are meant to do. It's FREE publicity for the Yankees and Uncle Hank is very good at getting it.
Thank you. Hey for all those that think Hank is hurting us, I have an idea. Let's trade Hank for Carl Pohlad!
yankeebot
04-23-08, 08:49 AM
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But it is simply inexcusable for him to make comments about players on the field (like calling out Papelbon or discussing whether or not Farnsworth intended to hit Manny while the appeal is still pending).
That stuff has to stop.
Has to? Why?
sweet_lou_14
04-23-08, 09:12 AM
Has to? Why?
I feel (strongly) that an owner antagonizing players on other teams is waaay over the line.
At least George only antagonized players on his own team. ;)
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But it is simply inexcusable for him to make comments about players on the field (like calling out Papelbon or discussing whether or not Farnsworth intended to hit Manny while the appeal is still pending).
That stuff has to stop.
So, him saying Farnsworth didn't intend to hit Manny is " inexcusable "
LOL- all Farnsworth ash to do is how tape of his outing this year to prove he has no idea where he's throwing
Sorry, but I don't see how that's a bad thing
sweet_lou_14
04-23-08, 09:20 AM
So, him saying Farnsworth didn't intend to hit Manny is " inexcusable "
It's in the details of what he said. The implication behind Hank's comments was clear: that there was an intent to hit Manny, just not in the head. And that he knew this "for a fact," implying he discussed the matter with the player.
Presuming that Farnsworth is appealing on the grounds that the ball "just slipped," Hank's statement undermines his chances of getting the suspension reduced.
That's a problem.
yankeebot
04-23-08, 09:24 AM
It's in the details of what he said. The implication behind Hank's comments was clear: that there was an intent to hit Manny, just not in the head. And that he knew this "for a fact," implying he discussed the matter with the player.
Presuming that Farnsworth is appealing on the grounds that the ball "just slipped," Hank's statement undermines his chances of getting the suspension reduced.
That's a problem.
Except you don't know that at all. I've heard managers, GMs, coaches, and other players comment on ongoing appeals. I've never seen any evidence that it had an affect on the result. I don't know why Hank would.
So many people are trying soooo hard to make Hank's words bigger than they are. Maybe someday it will cause a problem but until that happens, all this projecting is a little odd imo.
yankeeman61
04-23-08, 11:17 AM
The closest crazy uncle comparison for Hank has to be Uncle Junior from the Sopranos. Lots of instability there for both. Hopefully Hank doesn't start hallucinating and end up shooting a family member.
Yankees13
04-23-08, 12:10 PM
I feel (strongly) that an owner antagonizing players on other teams is waaay over the line.
At least George only antagonized players on his own team. ;)
I much rather have the owner antagonizing opposing players than his own players.
Spiker101
04-23-08, 12:24 PM
Let me make sure we are talking about the same uncle.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend more than anyone else for international signings and overslot draftpicks.
The Uncle Hank that I know is very willing to spend the money (including the extra luxury tax) to acquire players like Johan Santana.
The Uncle Hank that I know has stated publicly that he disagreed with his father and WANTS a more homegrown team.
Please, if you know of a better uncle (baseball owner) than that tell me who it is. If not can we stop bashing him every time he is interviewed and speaks unfiltered (that's the crazy uncle part). So what? I can understand the media jumping all over his statements and giving him (and the Yankees) massive air time and back page coverage...that is what his statements are meant to do. It's FREE publicity for the Yankees and Uncle Hank is very good at getting it.
Your second and third versions of the uncle are contradictory, but nevermind. I can think of about six or seven owners who spend money freely and don't have to expose their low IQ while they're doing it. But the larger point is that if crazy Uncle Hank is going to be playing with matches every other week and set fire to the furniture, and if Cashman is going to have to be constantly running into the room to douse the blaze that's going to get old. quickly. Cashman is paid well, but not that much more than most GMs and less than a few. It's not like he can't find employment elsewhere.
And if the Yanks need more publicity, they should just hire a real clown with a honking red rubber nose.
I feel (strongly) that an owner antagonizing players on other teams is waaay over the line.
At least George only antagonized players on his own team. ;) Can you point to any player on any other team that has been so antagonized by Hank Steinbrenner? I'd bet that Manny Ramirez couldn't pick Hank Steinbrenner out of a lineup, unless his contract was up.
I suspect you'll all be overjoyed if the Steinbrenners turned into the Glass family.Is that really what you want-some rich guy who doesn't care about winning? The level of hysterics about all this is now embarrassing.
Spiker101
04-23-08, 01:58 PM
I suspect you'll all be overjoyed if the Steinbrenners turned into the Glass family.Is that really what you want-some rich guy who doesn't care about winning? The level of hysterics about all this is now embarrassing.
Can't I please have an owner like the guy who owns Boston or Detroit or even Cleveland.? there are plenty of smart men in the world who understand that if you invest wisely and come up with a good product people will buy it. Buffoonry isn't really helpful.
OldYankeeFan
04-23-08, 02:02 PM
Your second and third versions of the uncle are contradictory...
Not at all. it shows that in addition to paying for and wanting a Farm that can produce quality homegrown players, Hank is willing to spend the big bucks for FA or potential FA to fill in the holes where needed.
I can think of about six or seven owners who spend money freely and don't have to expose their low IQ while they're doing it Obviously you are aware that the Yankees payroll is a good % higher than everyone else's. And they are spending much more than any other team to get quality prospects. Add both up and NO other owner comes even close, let alone 6 or 7.
But the larger point is that if crazy Uncle Hank is going to be playing with matches every other week and set fire to the furniture, and if Cashman is going to have to be constantly running into the room to douse the blaze that's going to get old. quickly. Cashman is paid well, but not that much more than most GMs and less than a few. It's not like he can't find employment elsewhere. Pure speculation as to what might happen. IMO...it is no big deal. Cashman has not yet proven he can win a championship with all the resources the Yankees have given him to do so. He has an excellent LT plan that he wants to see through and will get paid very handsomely to do it. To suggest he would walk away do to the fact he had to "correct" something his boss said (or might say in the future) I just can't see happening. However I can see the Yankees end up giving him a "put up with Hank" bonus.
And if the Yanks need more publicity, they should just hire a real clown with a honking red rubber nose. Then they would become the METS.
YESSIR!
04-23-08, 02:03 PM
Hank should be embarassed that Mussina has to now answer questions about his pitching style and defend himself against Hank's gaffes:
"I thought for three games, it was all right," Mussina said. "Manny hits a double in the gap and since then, it's been a bad three innings and one hitter. And most of it was Manny the whole time anyway.
"Before that, I hung a slider to Vernon Wells and he hit a homer -- he's a pretty good player. I pitched a good game against Tampa [Bay, on April 7], and then Manny has a homer and two doubles. So let's see -- it's Manny and Vernon Wells so far. That's caused me most of the trouble."
Yeah, pretty much. What, Hank is too lazy and/or oblivious to realize this about his own pitcher?? He's pitched well so far. Or at least to expectations.
Can't I please have an owner like the guy who owns Boston or Detroit or even Cleveland.? there are plenty of smart men in the world who understand that if you invest wisely and come up with a good product people will buy it. Buffoonry isn't really helpful.
Mike Iltich, owner of the Tiggers, for a long time had a bigger payroll for his NHL Red Wings. He was completely indifferent to his baseball club until recently. Tom Werner and Larry Lucchino, parts of the Sawx ownership, have embarrassed themselves with the Padres and Marlins. Werner is the genius who had Roseann Barr sign the National Anthem while tugging on her.., uh, you get the idea.The Jacobs family have until hiring Shapiro run the Indians into the ground, and did exaclty that with the NHL Bruins. Don't assume the Steinbrenners are worse. In fact far from it. The grass isn't awalys greener.
themgmt
04-23-08, 02:36 PM
Hank can say whatever he wants.
Don't like it? Tough.
Spiker101
04-23-08, 02:57 PM
Hank can say whatever he wants.
Don't like it? Tough.
Yep, the 1st Amendment, a wonderful thing. Even works both ways.
montrealer
04-23-08, 03:01 PM
Your second and third versions of the uncle are contradictory, but nevermind. I can think of about six or seven owners who spend money freely and don't have to expose their low IQ while they're doing it. But the larger point is that if crazy Uncle Hank is going to be playing with matches every other week and set fire to the furniture, and if Cashman is going to have to be constantly running into the room to douse the blaze that's going to get old. quickly. Cashman is paid well, but not that much more than most GMs and less than a few. It's not like he can't find employment elsewhere.
And if the Yanks need more publicity, they should just hire a real clown with a honking red rubber nose.
That`s the "Uncle I`m talking about.....:gulp:
Can't I please have an owner like the guy who owns Boston
or Detroit or even Cleveland.? there are plenty of smart men in the world who understand that if you invest wisely and come up with a good product people will buy it. Buffoonry isn't really helpful.
Yeah, it's not like Boston management didn't run their GM out of town in a gorilla suit or anything
Ynkcpt23
04-23-08, 03:25 PM
Hank should be embarassed that Mussina has to now answer questions about his pitching style and defend himself against Hank's gaffes:
"I thought for three games, it was all right," Mussina said. "Manny hits a double in the gap and since then, it's been a bad three innings and one hitter. And most of it was Manny the whole time anyway.
"Before that, I hung a slider to Vernon Wells and he hit a homer -- he's a pretty good player. I pitched a good game against Tampa [Bay, on April 7], and then Manny has a homer and two doubles. So let's see -- it's Manny and Vernon Wells so far. That's caused me most of the trouble."
Yeah, pretty much. What, Hank is too lazy and/or oblivious to realize this about his own pitcher?? He's pitched well so far. Or at least to expectations.
Hey, as long as we can morph Moose into Jamie Moyer, everything will be fine. :uhh:
yankeebot
04-23-08, 03:29 PM
Hey, as long as we can morph Moose into Jamie Moyer, everything will be fine. :uhh:
Moose was already pretty clear on that. He doesn't own a left-handed glove.
fritz kekich
04-23-08, 03:42 PM
Mike Iltich, owner of the Tiggers, for a long time had a bigger payroll for his NHL Red Wings. He was completely indifferent to his baseball club until recently. Tom Werner and Larry Lucchino, parts of the Sawx ownership, have embarrassed themselves with the Padres and Marlins. Werner is the genius who had Roseann Barr sign the National Anthem while tugging on her.., uh, you get the idea.The Jacobs family have until hiring Shapiro run the Indians into the ground, and did exaclty that with the NHL Bruins. Don't assume the Steinbrenners are worse. In fact far from it. The grass isn't awalys greener.
Werner and Lucchino had NOTHING to do with the Marlins. That was John Henry, who like every Marlins owner before and after, is held hostage by Huizenga's stadium deal.
with the Red Sox, its Henry's money and you dont hear a peep out of him when it comes to personnel.. Or Frank McCourt. Or any other owner that I can think of.
Public comments about personnel fall into the category of "It isn't your job."
But your ignorance of reality shows up in your reference to "the Jacobs family" and the Bruins. Dick Jacobs of the Indians didn't "run the team into the ground." He and his brother, David are in commercial real estate. They bought the team in 1986, immediately began plans for a new stadium, and are probably the two people most responsible for turning the Indians from a joke into a near-model franchise. It was Jacobs who (along with GM John Hart, who predates Shapiro by a dozen years) pioneered the idea of "buying up the arb years" of younger players like Thome, Manny, Baerga, Alomar to enable the team to have a sustained run with a cost certainty.
Jeremey Jacobs runs Delaware North and the Bruins. he is not related to the Indians' Jacobs.
That you didn't know this simple fact pretty much makes the rest of your opinions on the subject value-less.
PeppermintPatty
04-23-08, 04:17 PM
I''ll start worrying about Hank if/when he starts demanding Cashman to trade for this and sign that player.
That kind of loony owner will kill your farm system. Ala George Steinbrenner.
Other then that Hank is pretty harmless.
I''ll start worrying about Hank if/when he starts demanding Cashman to trade for this and sign that player.
That kind of loony owner will kill your farm system. Ala George Steinbrenner.
Other then that Hank is pretty harmless.
I agree, to this point his bark has been much worse than his bite.
Pinstripedbass
04-23-08, 05:33 PM
Thank you. Hey for all those that think Hank is hurting us, I have an idea. Let's trade Hank for Carl Pohlad!
Why is always Hank or Carl Pohlad?
Is there no owner who is moderate?
Pinstripedbass
04-23-08, 05:34 PM
Your second and third versions of the uncle are contradictory, but nevermind. I can think of about six or seven owners who spend money freely and don't have to expose their low IQ while they're doing it. But the larger point is that if crazy Uncle Hank is going to be playing with matches every other week and set fire to the furniture, and if Cashman is going to have to be constantly running into the room to douse the blaze that's going to get old. quickly. Cashman is paid well, but not that much more than most GMs and less than a few. It's not like he can't find employment elsewhere.
And if the Yanks need more publicity, they should just hire a real clown with a honking red rubber nose.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 05:38 PM
I''ll start worrying about Hank if/when he starts demanding Cashman to trade for this and sign that player.
That kind of loony owner will kill your farm system.
Umm, were you paying any attention to what happened during the Santana negotiations?
Ole' Hank has already been there and done that.
Pinstripedbass
04-23-08, 05:41 PM
Mike Iltich, owner of the Tiggers, for a long time had a bigger payroll for his NHL Red Wings. He was completely indifferent to his baseball club until recently. Tom Werner and Larry Lucchino, parts of the Sawx ownership, have embarrassed themselves with the Padres and Marlins. Werner is the genius who had Roseann Barr sign the National Anthem while tugging on her.., uh, you get the idea.The Jacobs family have until hiring Shapiro run the Indians into the ground, and did exaclty that with the NHL Bruins. Don't assume the Steinbrenners are worse. In fact far from it. The grass isn't awalys greener.
It's JEREMY JACOBS and DELAWARE NORTH that own the Bruins. They are no relation to the Cleveland Indians Richard Jacobs.
Besides, the Indians are now ownerd by Larry Dolan, brother of Charles Dolan of Cablevision fame.
yankeebot
04-23-08, 07:04 PM
Umm, were you paying any attention to what happened during the Santana negotiations?
Ole' Hank has already been there and done that.
We got Johan Santana?? Where?
We got Johan Santana?? Where?
The Yankees are stashing him quietly in Queens for now. But, someday, when the AL East least expects it .... Boom.
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 08:09 PM
And if the Yanks need more publicity, they should just hire a real clown with a honking red rubber nose.
Then they would become the METS. :lol::lol::lol:
Werner and Lucchino had NOTHING to do with the Marlins. That was John Henry, who like every Marlins owner before and after, is held hostage by Huizenga's stadium deal.
with the Red Sox, its Henry's money and you dont hear a peep out of him when it comes to personnel.. Or Frank McCourt. Or any other owner that I can think of.
Public comments about personnel fall into the category of "It isn't your job."
But your ignorance of reality shows up in your reference to "the Jacobs family" and the Bruins. Dick Jacobs of the Indians didn't "run the team into the ground." He and his brother, David are in commercial real estate. They bought the team in 1986, immediately began plans for a new stadium, and are probably the two people most responsible for turning the Indians from a joke into a near-model franchise. It was Jacobs who (along with GM John Hart, who predates Shapiro by a dozen years) pioneered the idea of "buying up the arb years" of younger players like Thome, Manny, Baerga, Alomar to enable the team to have a sustained run with a cost certainty.
Jeremey Jacobs runs Delaware North and the Bruins. he is not related to the Indians' Jacobs.
That you didn't know this simple fact pretty much makes the rest of your opinions on the subject value-less.
Fair enough. Werner was part of embarrassing Padres ownership group. Whether it was Lucchino or Henry, what's the difference? As to the different Jacobs, my mistake. But the team went from a perennial pennat challenger to a doormat until Shapiro righted the ship.For the bried time the Steinbrenners had ownership interests in the Devils and Nets, they never saw them as anything more than business properties for their network.
Still, again, there's a whole bunch of people here who want to rip the Steinbrenners at every turn and whine like Mike Lupica after not getting his warm cup of milk at 11PM each evening. Point is the Steinbrenners,warts and all, are preferable by a bunch over any of the alternatives-the Glasses, Wilpons, Lucchinos, Angeloses, Pohlads, Mccourts, etc. that populate MLB ownership groups. Or worse, the Dolans. And as to that, Steinbrenner had the foresight to get YES started and get away from Dolan. ANd that has set the Yanks up to be very profitable and competitive for the foreseeable future. What ever the sins of the father and the sons, they want to win, and they've spent money. Would you prefer that they keep their profits in their pockets, or that they put that money out on the field in player salaries?
PeppermintPatty
04-23-08, 09:01 PM
Umm, were you paying any attention to what happened during the Santana negotiations?
Ole' Hank has already been there and done that.
He didn't actually demand Cashman to get Santana.
He suggested Cashman get him and he wanted him.
Unlike George Hank seems to actually listen to his baseball people.
Plus Hanks not the only voice with the final say, Hal's there too.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Then they would become the METS.
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 09:11 PM
He didn't actually demand Cashman to get Santana.
He suggested Cashman get him and he wanted him.
Unlike George Hank seems to actually listen to his baseball people.
Plus Hanks not the only voice with the final say, Hal's there too. Bingo.
Hysteria and projection interest some people here a lot more than rational thought, apparently.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 09:12 PM
He didn't actually demand Cashman to get Santana.
He suggested Cashman get him and he wanted him.
Unlike George Hank seems to actually listen to his baseball people.
Plus Hanks not the only voice with the final say, Hal's there too.
Hank did go over Cashman's head and include Hughes in the offer for Santana, against the advice of his GM. That much is common knowledge.
In my opinion, that doesn't define listening to his baseball people. Luckily Hal stepped in and nixed the deal; although he may not have done so if not for the financial ramifications.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 09:17 PM
Bingo.
Hysteria and projection interest some people here a lot more than rational thought, apparently.
..and apparently reality interests some of us more that others...
And.... Mussina is pitching exactly like Jamie Moyer tonight. Maybe Hank is smarter than he lets on ;).
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 09:20 PM
..and apparently reality interests some of us more that others... No, you're projecting. Really, you are.
If Hank actually did something stupid or wrong, I'd be with you 100%, but until the prophecies of doom and gloom are, well, kind of funny given all the right things Hank's said.
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 09:21 PM
Hank did go over Cashman's head and include Hughes in the offer for Santana, against the advice of his GM. That much is common knowledge.
In my opinion, that doesn't define listening to his baseball people. Luckily Hal stepped in and nixed the deal; although he may not have done so if not for the financial ramifications.
Is it common knowledge? I remember reading that, but it seemed a little shaky.
Do you have a link from a reliable source that indicates that deal was really on the table from Hank only and the rest happened as you stated?
(Serious question, BTW.)
yankeebot
04-23-08, 09:25 PM
Is it common knowledge? I remember reading that, but it seemed a little shaky.
Do you have a link from a reliable source that indicates that deal was really on the table from Hank only and the rest happened as you stated? My recollection was that the initial rumors had Hank and Stick wanting to trade but Cash and Hal felt otherwise. Then they had a meeting and agree on what they would offer. Kind of like they were a team working toward a common goal. Then they set a deadline and when the Twins didn't accept, they pulled Phil off the table and never looked back.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 09:26 PM
No, you're projecting. Really, you are.
If Hank actually did something stupid or wrong, I'd be with you 100%, but until the prophecies of doom and gloom are, well, kind of funny given all the right things Hank's said.
What exactly am I "projecting"?
Are you now going to deny that Hank went over Cashman's head when he offered Hughes as part of a package for Santana when Cashman was against including him?
That's not "projecting", that's fact.
I make no "prophecies of doom and gloom"; but don't ask me to sit silently and not point out the obvious when some of you are misinformed enough to foolishly state that Hank hasn't yet demonstrated that he's willing to go against the advice of his baseball people when he already has.
Nothing more, nothing less.
What exactly am I "projecting"?
Are you now going to deny that Hank went over Cashman's head when he offered Hughes as part of a package for Santana when Cashman was against including him?
That's not "projecting", that's fact.
I make no "prophecies of doom and gloom"; but don't ask me to sit silently and not point out the obvious when some of you are misinformed enough to foolishly state that Hank hasn't yet demonstrated that he's willing to go against the advice of his baseball people when he already has.
Nothing more, nothing less.
We don't know that Hank actually went over Cash's head. He may have been against the trade, but acquiesced to making the offer.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 09:28 PM
Is it common knowledge? I remember reading that, but it seemed a little shaky.
Do you have a link from a reliable source that indicates that deal was really on the table from Hank only and the rest happened as you stated?
(Serious question, BTW.)
I don't have the exact links off hand, but I clearly remember that Jon Heyman was one of the writers reporting this at the time over at www.cnnsi.com; I'm sure if you look through his archives on their site, you'll find the column.
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 09:29 PM
My recollection was that the initial rumors had Hank and Stick wanting to trade but Cash and Hal felt otherwise. Then they had a meeting and agree on what they would offer. Kind of like they were a team working toward a common goal. Then they set a deadline and when the Twins didn't accept, they pulled Phil off the table and never looked back. If that's the case, then it's a very different scenario than what was posted above. Terms change often when you're in the midst of negotiations, so no harm in that.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 09:31 PM
We don't know that Hank actually went over Cash's head. He may have been against the trade, but acquiesced to making the offer.
C'mon Rich; you're smarter than that. If Hank went ahead and made an offer that Cash didn't want to make; then what do you call it?
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 09:31 PM
What exactly am I "projecting"?
Are you now going to deny that Hank went over Cashman's head when he offered Hughes as part of a package for Santana when Cashman was against including him?
That's not "projecting", that's fact. The following two posters didn't back you up, so please could you provide a real link - I'm not going digging.
I make no "prophecies of doom and gloom"; but don't ask me to sit silently and not point out the obvious when some of you are misinformed enough to foolishly state that Hank hasn't yet demonstrated that he's willing to go against the advice of his baseball people when he already has.
Nothing more, nothing less. Awaiting the evidence to support your claims...
C'mon Rich; you're smarter than that. If Hank went ahead and made an offer that Cash didn't want to make; then what do you call it?
Based on an accusation made on the Moose thread, I actually like that first sentence. I'm serious.
My point is simply this: We don't know what the Yankees' decision making process is. For example, when Cash got more power in his most recent contract, he made a poiint of saying that the ultimate decision making power still rests with George. Now that he has stepped aside in favor of his sons, it's not unreasonable to think that Cash acknowledges that they have the ultimate power. So Cash's recommendation may have been overruled, but I don't think that necessarily meand that the process was aborted.
Rocketbooster
04-23-08, 09:56 PM
The following two posters didn't back you up, so please could you provide a real link - I'm not going digging.
Awaiting the evidence to support your claims...
I'm not going to take the time to dig up the articles, but Phil was definitely on the table; sorry, there is no disputing that. It was also made apparent through the whole process that Cash did NOT want to include Hughes....and if you read any of Hank's quotes, it was all he could do to contain his glee over Joba. Joba was untouchable......Cano was untouchable. Hughes (and Kennedy, but nevermind Ian for the time being ) was very touchable for Santana. What surprises me now is that Hal didn't step in from the beginning; not only was he concerned about the $$$, but obviously he liked Phil an awful lot and refused to part with him. The Twins, at any time, could have accepted the Yankees offer........and then Hal could not have said or done anything about it.
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 10:04 PM
I'm not going to take the time to dig up the articles, but Phil was definitely on the table; sorry, there is no disputing that. It was also made apparent through the whole process that Cash did NOT want to include Hughes....and if you read any of Hank's quotes, it was all he could do to contain his glee over Joba. Joba was untouchable......Cano was untouchable. Hughes (and Kennedy, but nevermind Ian for the time being ) was very touchable for Santana. What surprises me now is that Hal didn't step in from the beginning; not only was he concerned about the $$$, but obviously he liked Phil an awful lot and refused to part with him. The Twins, at any time, could have accepted the Yankees offer........and then Hal could not have said or done anything about it. I know Phil was on the table - and then off the table - but it seems like a lot of assumptions are being made about Hank's involvement that no one can seem to prove.
Did the guy fly solo and offer up Hughes to Minnesota or not? If it happened, it should be easily cited.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 10:20 PM
The following two posters didn't back you up, so please could you provide a real link - I'm not going digging.
Awaiting the evidence to support your claims...
Since you're too lazy to enlighten yourself and don't want to go "digging" for information, here is some reading material. Knock yourself out
http://pinstriped.wordpress.com/2007/12/02/phil-hughes-traded-for-johan-santana/
Tyler Kepner - NY Times
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/phil-hughes/
It was wrenching enough for the Yankees to even offer Phil Hughes to the Twins for Santana, and General Manager Brian Cashman was never too enthusiastic. Hank Steinbrenner, the senior vice president, said he had heard that fans were glad the Yankees pulled out of the Santana chase.
“I don’t base what I do on other people’s opinions,” Steinbrenner said. “You can’t take opinion polls every day. But I’m really pleased at the fan reaction to keeping Hughes, and the fans do matter. Their opinion does matter.
Bill Madden - NY Daily News
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/05/2007-12-05_brian_cashman_yanks_balk_at_millions_and.html
The acquisition of Santana would have meant tacking on another $125 million to that figure, and Cashman, who never wanted to do the Santana deal in the first place, blanched at the prospect of adding another $20 million to a payroll that was already on the cusp of $200 million, again
John Heyman - Sports Illustrated
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/12/11/tuesday.scoop/index.html
As for the Yankees, GM Brian Cashman has always seemed uneasy about surrendering the coveted Hughes, and used Andy Pettitte's return to persuade new boss Hank Steinbrenner not to overbid for Santana. But Steinbrenner the junior has already overruled Cashman this offseason in giving catcher Jorge Posada a fourth year, closer Mariano Rivera a third year and Alex Rodriguez a record contract after swearing he was out of the A-Rod Sweepstakes.
So if the Twins are waiting for Hank the Yank to change his mind again and get back into the Santana Sweepstakes in a big way, you can't blame them. A lot of baseball folks think he probably will.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 10:25 PM
Based on an accusation made on the Moose thread, I actually like that first sentence. I'm serious.
My point is simply this: We don't know what the Yankees' decision making process is. For example, when Cash got more power in his most recent contract, he made a poiint of saying that the ultimate decision making power still rests with George. Now that he has stepped aside in favor of his sons, it's not unreasonable to think that Cash acknowledges that they have the ultimate power. So Cash's recommendation may have been overruled, but I don't think that necessarily meand that the process was aborted.
Agreed, but my post was in response to someone who said that Hank wouldn't force Cashman to make a move against his will, and wouldn't overrule his baseball people. I'm merely pointing out that Hank already has done so.
Putting Hughes on the table when Cashman was against it is proof.
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 10:27 PM
Since you're too lazy to enlighten yourself and don't want to go "digging" for information, here is some reading material. Knock yourself out
So defensive. Sorry I asked someone who made a claim to actually prove it. Next time I'll just believe everything I'm told.
Sheesh.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 10:32 PM
So defensive. Sorry I asked someone who made a claim to actually prove it. Next time I'll just believe everything I'm told.
Sheesh.
If someome tells me that I'm wrong about something that I'm not sure about; I take the time to try and educate myself instead of leaving the burden on the person pointing it out to me. I told you where you could find the information, but you weren't even willing to take the time to look for it.
How else am I supposed to respond to that?
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 10:35 PM
If someome tells me that I'm wrong about something that I'm not sure about; I take the time to try and educate myself instead of leaving the burden on the person pointing it out to me. I told you where you could find the information, but you weren't even willing to take the time to look for it.
How else am I supposed to respond to that?
This is a message board, not the office. I - and I would think most people - don't have time or the inclination to follow up on other people's claims. If you're going to make a claim or any sort of assertion in this sort of environment, I would think it smart to be able to back it up ASAP.
I at least followed up your post with a serious question. To which, after much condescension, you finally responded.
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 10:41 PM
This is a message board, not the office. I - and I would think most people - don't have time or the inclination to follow up on other people's claims. If you're going to make a claim or any sort of assertion in this sort of environment, I would think it smart to be able to back it up ASAP.
I didn't realize that I can only point out the truth unless I have saved every link relevant to the discussion in case someone disagrees.
Where are your links to prove that Hank had nothing to do with including Hughes in the package offered for Santana? I guess only your time is valuable....
I didn't realize that I can only point out the truth unless I have saved every link relevant to the discussion in case someone disagrees.
Where are your links to prove that Hank had nothing to do with including Hughes in the package offered for Santana? I guess only your time is valuable....
There were meetings with ALL of the baseball people. It wasn't just Hank/Hal/Cash. Stick Michael said specifically on the radio that he was FOR trading Hughes+ for Santana and was in the meetings.
Joba's Rings
04-23-08, 10:48 PM
I didn't realize that I can only point out the truth unless I have saved every link relevant to the discussion in case someone disagrees.
Where are your links to prove that Hank had nothing to do with including Hughes in the package offered for Santana? I guess only your time is valuable....
Wow. :lol:
Zimmers' Helmet
04-23-08, 11:02 PM
There were meetings with ALL of the baseball people. It wasn't just Hank/Hal/Cash. Stick Michael said specifically on the radio that he was FOR trading Hughes+ for Santana and was in the meetings.
...and as the FORMER Yankee GM, I thought it was very self-serving of Stick to publicly undermine Cashman; of all people, he should have known better.
Who's to say that Stick isn't campaigning for Cashman's job and agreeing with Hank will help his chances?
scooterfan
04-23-08, 11:14 PM
...and as the FORMER Yankee GM, I thought it was very self-serving of Stick to publicly undermine Cashman; of all people, he should have known better.
Who's to say that Stick isn't campaigning for Cashman's job and agreeing with Hank will help his chances?
Or... Stick merely gave his opinion when asked. I wouldn't necessarily read anything sinister into this
Good and intelligent people can disagree about an issue like trading for Santana.
YankeePride1967
04-24-08, 06:36 AM
I'm still waiting for the destruction of the Yankees as a result of Hank's comments the other day.
yankeebot
04-24-08, 06:44 AM
I didn't realize that I can only point out the truth unless I have saved every link relevant to the discussion in case someone disagrees.
Where are your links to prove that Hank had nothing to do with including Hughes in the package offered for Santana? I guess only your time is valuable.... No one ever said or even inferred htat Hank had nothing to do with it. The truth is not as black and white as you want to make it. Yes, it's common knowledge that Cash did not want to trade Hughes and Hank did. Beyond that, we really don't know what all transpired. Even a couple of the sources you used said things like "Brian Cashman was never too enthusiastic" and "Cashman has always seemed uneasy about surrendering the coveted Hughes" which are not exactly words that I would have chose to use if I believe Hank had forced Cashman to make a move against his will. There was obviously a debate that culminated in Hughes being put on the table briefly. Maybe it's semantics but "forced against his will" seems a bit overly dramatic to me when discussing a business decision made by a group of people.
You've have also repeatedly stated that Hank did this against the advice of his baseball people. The word people implies more than one. Besides Cash, who amongst the Yankee baseball people were involved and how many of them were against the trade? I'll answer for you. We have no idea. For all we know, Cashman is the only one that was not in favor of dangling Hughes in which case it might be prudent for ownership to examine it a little more closely. Personally, I like Cashman having control but I don't think he should have absolute power. Between the players involved and the money, this should have been a decision made by committee and that's what appears to have happened. Nothing about it indicates to me that Hank is going to be handling baseball decisions as a rule. This was a huge deal both personel wise and financially and an exception to the day to day duties of a GM.
Finally, your initial premise that Hank forced Cashman to trade for Santana loses a little something when you look at the roster.
Rocketbooster
04-24-08, 07:04 AM
Or... Stick merely gave his opinion when asked. I wouldn't necessarily read anything sinister into this
Good and intelligent people can disagree about an issue like trading for Santana.
Not to the public........the team is supposed to present a united front. I'm not a big fan of Stick anymore.
Rocketbooster
04-24-08, 07:12 AM
No one ever said or even inferred htat Hank had nothing to do with it. The truth is not as black and white as you want to make it. Yes, it's common knowledge that Cash did not want to trade Hughes and Hank did. Beyond that, we really don't know what all transpired. Even a couple of the sources you used said things like "Brian Cashman was never too enthusiastic" and "Cashman has always seemed uneasy about surrendering the coveted Hughes" which are not exactly words that I would have chose to use if I believe Hank had forced Cashman to make a move against his will. There was obviously a debate that culminated in Hughes being put on the table briefly.
You've have also repeatedly stated that Hank did this against the advice of his baseball people. The word people implies more than one. Besides Cash, who amongst the Yankee baseball people were involved and how many of them were against the trade? I'll answer for you. We have no idea. For all we know, Cashman is the only one that was not in favor of dangling Hughes in which case it might be prudent for ownership to examine it a little more closely. Personally, I like Cashman having control but I don't think he should have absolute power. Between the players involved and the money, this should have been a decision made by committee and that's what appears to have happened. Nothing about it indicates to me that Hank is going to be handling baseball decisions as a rule. This was a huge deal both personel wise and financially and an exception to the day to day duties of a GM.
Finally, your initial premise that Hank forced Cashman to trade for Santana loses a little something when you look at the roster.
Completely disagree - why even bother having a GM? The GM is the person put in charge of making every important (and even not so important) baseball decision for a ballclub and the GM should have the final say..over any other baseball person, period. To put it nicely, I am not a fan of ruling by committee - whether it's for a day-to-day issue or something as huge as a Santana deal.
As for your other points, you're talking semantics. It doesn't matter to me which words the media used to make their points; the fact is, Cashman clearly did not want to trade Hughes (indicated by media reports and Cash's own words) and IMO, he was put on the table against his will. Asking each side for absolute proof of their rightness is pointless - absolute proof does not exist because the very, very inner workings of what went on were not divulged (despite Hank's best attempts to do so). All each of us has is our opinion based on what we know.
In Mo I Trust
04-24-08, 07:32 AM
Completely disagree - why even bother having a GM? The GM is the person put in charge of making every important (and even not so important) baseball decision for a ballclub and the GM should have the final say..over any other baseball person, period. To put it nicely, I am not a fan of ruling by committee - whether it's for a day-to-day issue or something as huge as a Santana deal.
When that much money is involved the GM never has complete control.
YankeePride1967
04-24-08, 07:37 AM
Completely disagree - why even bother having a GM? The GM is the person put in charge of making every important (and even not so important) baseball decision for a ballclub and the GM should have the final say..over any other baseball person, period. To put it nicely, I am not a fan of ruling by committee - whether it's for a day-to-day issue or something as huge as a Santana deal.
As for your other points, you're talking semantics. It doesn't matter to me which words the media used to make their points; the fact is, Cashman clearly did not want to trade Hughes (indicated by media reports and Cash's own words) and IMO, he was put on the table against his will. Asking each side for absolute proof of their rightness is pointless - absolute proof does not exist because the very, very inner workings of what went on were not divulged (despite Hank's best attempts to do so). All each of us has is our opinion based on what we know.
There is not a GM in the game that has total control. Not one. No GM would be allowed to hand out a multi-year multi-million dollar deal without input from ownership.
OldYankeeFan
04-24-08, 07:41 AM
I'm still waiting for the destruction of the Yankees as a result of Hank's comments the other day.
I guess you didn't notice last night...his comments about Moose so devestated him that Hank COMPLETELY destroyed Moose's ability to pitch. ;)
Yankees1962
04-24-08, 07:42 AM
There is not a GM in the game that has total control. Not one. No GM would be allowed to hand out a multi-year multi-million dollar deal without input from ownership.
You've got that right because it isn't the GMs money.
YankeePride1967
04-24-08, 07:47 AM
Honest question. Outside of damage to his own reputation, what ACTUAL harm has Hank's comments done? The one worry I can understand is worrying about Brian leaving at the end of the year, but let's examine that a bit closer. Yes, he has to deal with an overtalkative owner. But what other job out there will 1.) pay him as much as the Yanks do and 2.) provide him with the same resources (i.e. payroll and facilities) the Yankees to Brian to do the job? Also if there are other teams that would, which one has an opening?
YankeePride1967
04-24-08, 07:47 AM
You've got that right because it isn't the GMs money.
A-Rod's deal being front and center.
Yankees1962
04-24-08, 07:52 AM
Honest question. Outside of damage to his own reputation, what ACTUAL harm has Hank's comments done? The one worry I can understand is worrying about Brian leaving at the end of the year, but let's examine that a bit closer. Yes, he has to deal with an overtalkative owner. But what other job out there will 1.) pay him as much as the Yanks do and 2.) provide him with the same resources (i.e. payroll and facilities) the Yankees to Brian to do the job? Also if there are other teams that would, which one has an opening?
It's hard to know what is going through Cashman's mind. Perhaps, he could just get tired of dealing with the Steinbrenner family, Levine and the NY media???? His wife and family will affect his decision either way. If his family is willing to leave the NY area then the Dodgers can be a possiblity if they fire their GM. We don't know about the Cubs and their unannounced new owner.
YankeePride1967
04-24-08, 07:55 AM
It's hard to know what is going through Cashman's mind. Perhaps, he could just get tired of dealing with the Steinbrenner family, Levine and the NY media???? His wife and family will affect his decision either way. If his family is willing to leave the NY area then the Dodgers can be a possiblity if they fire their GM. We don't know about the Cubs and their unannounced new owner.
Considering the relationship Brian and Joe Torre have, I could see them if their season continues in the direction it started.
There is way too much focus on Hank and not nearly enough focus on Hal, despite Hal having 50% of the power.
Without Hal's assent, Hank can't do anything.
Cash will remain as the GM, imo, if only because of Hal.
YankeePride1967
04-24-08, 08:21 AM
There is way too much focus on Hank and not nearly enough focus on Hal, despite Hal having 50% of the power.
Without Hal's assent, Hank can't do anything.
Cash will remain as the GM, imo, if only because of Hal.
Agreed, and I think the biggest reason for the discrepancy in attention is Hank is very vocal while Hal I don't believe has said much of anything so Hank gets the ink, even though he has no more power than Hal.
OldYankeeFan
04-24-08, 08:49 AM
Honest question. Outside of damage to his own reputation, what ACTUAL harm has Hank's comments done?
Well let's see. We got A-Rod, Mo, Po and Andy back when according to some they would never come back after how Hank treated Joe and the comments he made. Our Farm is getting stronger thanks to his willingness to pay for high priced international talent and pay overslopt for American talent. And if there wasn't a Yankee Tax he would have paid the big bucks for Santana (so you can rest assured he will be willing to go after the top FA in the future to fill in holes we might have. So it looks like we're DOOMED with Hank.
As far as Cashman coming back it's a two way street. I like Cashman alot and his LT plan but in all honesty he's great with the press and very professional but other organizations could easily question his inability to win WITH the mega resources of the Yankees. So what would give them any comfort in thinking he can win without those resources? His trade and FA track record? I think Brian (if offered a competitive package) will be back to try and see his vision through to a championship. And having to correct a few of his boss's statements is in no way going to be a determining factor.
Well let's see. We got A-Rod, Mo, Po and Andy back when according to some they would never come back after how Hank treated Joe and the comments he made. Our Farm is getting stronger thanks to his willingness to pay for high priced international talent and pay overslopt for American talent. And if there wasn't a Yankee Tax he would have paid the big bucks for Santana (so you can rest assured he will be willing to go after the top FA in the future to fill in holes we might have. So it looks like we're DOOMED with Hank.
As far as Cashman coming back it's a two way street. I like Cashman alot and his LT plan but in all honesty he's great with the press and very professional but other organizations could easily question his inability to win WITH the mega resources of the Yankees. So what would give them any comfort in thinking he can win without those resources? His trade and FA track record? I think Brian (if offered a competitive package) will be back to try and see his vision through to a championship.] And having to correct a few of his boss's statements is in no way going to be a determining factor.
Cash has made some mistakes (who hasn't?), but he isn't responsible for every bad trade or FA signing because he either lacked the power that he has now, or he was overruled. For example, he wanted Vlad intead of Sheff, and he didn't want to trade for RJ.
As for some of his mistakes, the primary reason that the Yankees needed to pursue Igawa and Pavano (who many of the so called top GMs wanted) was that since Andy Pettitte was promoted in 1995, they have only produced one starting pitcher, Chien-Ming Wang.
Meanwhile, since gaining additional decision making power, he has stockpiled the farm system by drafting high ceiling amateur players (mostly pitchers) who had signability issues, and signing talented position players as Latin American free agents.
Keep in mind that it is Cash who wants to significantly lower the payroll. Hank has even said that Cashman is less apt to spend the Steinbrenners' money than either him or his brother.
Yankees1962
04-24-08, 09:12 AM
Cash has made some mistakes (who hasn't?), but he isn't responsible for every bad trade or FA signing because he either lacked the power to that he has now, or he was overruled. For example, he wanted Vlad intead of Sheff, and he didn't want to trade for RJ.
As for some of his mistakes, the primary reason that the Yankees needed to pursue Igawa and Pavano (who many of the so called top GMs wanted) was that since Andy Pettitte was promoted in 1995, they have only produced one starting pitcher, Chien-Ming Wang.
Meanwhile, since gaining additional decision making power, he has stockpiled the farm system by drafting high ceiling amateur players (mostly pitchers) who had signability issues, and signing talented position players as Latin American free agents.
Keep in mind that it is Cash who wants to significantly lower the payroll. Hank has even said that Cashman is less apt to spend the Steinbrenners' money than either him or his brother.
People seem to forget that both Detroit and Boston were hot for Pavano. Unfortunately, for the Yankees, he signed with us.
YankeePride1967
04-24-08, 09:16 AM
People seem to forget that both Detroit and Boston were hot for Pavano. Unfortunately, for the Yankees, he signed with us.
And Boston was also hot for Contreras too.
OldYankeeFan
04-24-08, 09:24 AM
Cash has made some mistakes (who hasn't?), but he isn't responsible for every bad trade or FA signing because he either lacked the power to that he has now, or he was overruled. For example, he wanted Vlad intead of Sheff, and he didn't want to trade for RJ.
I agree and I'm not saying Cashman is bad GM and want to see him gone. Conversely, I said I like him I want to see him stay. I just disagree with some who think there will be a line of owners wanting to acquire his services based on the fact he hasn't won WITH the mega resources of the Yankees, and ownres will be hesitant due to there being no track record of his performance without those resources.
Well let's see. We got A-Rod, Mo, Po and Andy back when according to some they would never come back after how Hank treated Joe and the comments he made. Our Farm is getting stronger thanks to his willingness to pay for high priced international talent and pay overslopt for American talent. And if there wasn't a Yankee Tax he would have paid the big bucks for Santana (so you can rest assured he will be willing to go after the top FA in the future to fill in holes we might have. So it looks like we're DOOMED with Hank.
As far as Cashman coming back it's a two way street. I like Cashman alot and his LT plan but in all honesty he's great with the press and very professional but other organizations could easily question his inability to win WITH the mega resources of the Yankees. So what would give them any comfort in thinking he can win without those resources? His trade and FA track record? I think Brian (if offered a competitive package) will be back to try and see his vision through to a championship. And having to correct a few of his boss's statements is in no way going to be a determining factor.
Looking at Cash's track record, there seems to be consistent weaknesses
His build through the farm is not exactly revolutionary or rocket science though he does get credit for his political skills in making it a reality
His record w/ pitching has been very poor. Igawa- after he had full control was awful.
If he is to be reupped, I'd like to see someone else in the hierarchy w/ scouting/evaluation skills having a lot of input
Not sure how it would look on the organizational chart, but Cash does need help in that area
I agree and I'm not saying Cashman is bad GM and want to see him gone. Conversely, I said I like him I want to see him stay. I just disagree with some who think there will be a line of owners wanting to acquire his services based on the fact he hasn't won WITH the mega resources of the Yankees, and ownres will be hesitant due to there being no track record of his performance without those resources.
But then again the Dodgers paid Torre $5M and have Colletti as their GM- owners can do stupid things
There is way too much focus on Hank and not nearly enough focus on Hal, despite Hal having 50% of the power.
Without Hal's assent, Hank can't do anything.
Cash will remain as the GM, imo, if only because of Hal.
I agree, unless Cash takes it upon himself to go elsewhere. Which is certainly a decision Hank's mouth can influence.
The Onion: http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/george_steinbrenner_tells
April 24, 2008
George Steinbrenner Tells Sons To Mellow Out
NEW YORK—Following the latest in a series of animated outbursts by Yankee co-chairman Hank Steinbrenner, a tirade in which he said that "only an idiot" would not start Joba Chamberlain, comparatively laid-back Yankee owner George Steinbrenner advised his sons to "calm down" and "not make any rash decisions." "It's just a game," Steinbrenner said in a statement released by his spokesman Howard Rubenstein. "Honestly, who cares if the Yankees lose a couple? It's not the end of the world. As long as everyone is having fun...that's the important thing." Steinbrenner added that he is no longer requiring the Yankees to win the World Series, but that if they are eliminated in the ALDS, Joe Girardi will be out of a job and Brian Cashman will be executed before a firing squad. http://www.theonion.com/content/themes/onion/assets/terminator.gif
OldYankeeFan
04-24-08, 12:38 PM
I knew all this talk about George being incapacitated was premature!
Spiker101
04-24-08, 05:33 PM
"Honestly, who cares if the Yankees lose a couple? It's not the end of the world. As long as everyone is having fun...that's the important thing." I knew it: the Apocalypse is upon us.
yankswn23
04-24-08, 05:37 PM
The important thing is that everyone has fun... sounds like the line in Talladega knights, and to respond Ricky says "Everything cool she just said you just ruined.." lol
OldYankeeFan
04-30-08, 08:50 AM
When you go up against the boss you had better be right. So far Cashman could not have been more wrong. Not only have Hughes and Kennedy not won a game, they are the two worst in the ML in avg innings per start, and its killing our pen. And to top it off Hank gets to see Santana with the cross town Mets.
Maybe Hank was not all wrong afterall.
If this doesn't get turned around we've seen the last of Brian Cashman, and it won't be because he has a better offer from another club.
montrealer
04-30-08, 09:18 AM
When you go up against the boss you had better be right. So far Cashman could not have been more wrong. Not only have Hughes and Kennedy not won a game, they are the two worst in the ML in avg innings per start, and its killing our pen. And to top it off Hank gets to see Santana with the cross town Mets.
Maybe Hank was not all wrong afterall.
If this doesn't get turned around we've seen the last of Brian Cashman, and it won't be because he has a better offer from another club.
Hindsight is a wonderful benchmark.........should`a.......would`s.....could`a.....all you want.......but this team has a lot more issues here. As far as the Mets ..........who cares...........
THEBOSS84
04-30-08, 09:19 AM
Hal was against the Santana trade too. Let's not forget that.
OldYankeeFan
04-30-08, 10:19 AM
Hal was against the Santana trade too. Let's not forget that.
I agree. So far Hal has sided with Cashman on everything, as he should have. Afterall, who would you side with? A veteran baseball man or a new co-owner who had been overseeing a horse farm? I know Cashman sold me. If he was that high on Hughes and Kennedy to think we could compete with them this year, I was all for keeping the kids and was very much looking forward to it.
Things change.
bronxburning
04-30-08, 03:33 PM
I agree. So far Hal has sided with Cashman on everything, as he should have. Afterall, who would you side with? A veteran baseball man or a new co-owner who had been overseeing a horse farm? I know Cashman sold me. If he was that high on Hughes and Kennedy to think we could compete with them this year, I was all for keeping the kids and was very much looking forward to it.
Things change.
Cash was hoping that at least one of the two would succeed but to have both fall flat like this was unlikely. Still Cash should have prepared for this outcome and now the Yanks will twist in the wind until they can make a trade. By then they could be 10 or more games out and the trade may not be worth it.
Rocketbooster
04-30-08, 07:28 PM
I agree. So far Hal has sided with Cashman on everything, as he should have. Afterall, who would you side with? A veteran baseball man or a new co-owner who had been overseeing a horse farm? I know Cashman sold me. If he was that high on Hughes and Kennedy to think we could compete with them this year, I was all for keeping the kids and was very much looking forward to it.
Things change.
So you were only for keeping the kids if the Yankees were sure to make the post-season? Cash may have sold you ,but if so, I think you bought something he wasn't selling. He wanted to hold onto Hughes not because he was going to be great in 2008 (though I'm sure he thought Phil would at least be fairly solid), but because he loved him going forward. At 21 years old, Phil could be expected to have many years of excellent pitching ahead of him.
I'm sorry some fans can only look across town in disgust at not having Santana, but oh well - I have never looked back since that deal was made and I never will. Phil's ship will be righted eventually - of that I have no doubt
PinstripeDynasty
05-02-08, 07:17 AM
How soon before Hank publically criticizes Girardi? It seems only a matter of time.
How soon before Hank publically criticizes Girardi? It seems only a matter of time.
If we get swept at home this weekend, I could see it happening.
Yankees1962
05-03-08, 01:05 AM
Another Hank Steinbrenner inteview, but nothing earthshattering except his frustration that we might not make the playoffs if our pitching doesn't improve which is a sentiment that has been expressed on this forum by many Yankee fans.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080502&content_id=2630038&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy
Edit: Another version of the interview from NYPost.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05032008/sports/yankees/baby_boss__well_make_needed_fixes_109260.htm?page=0
Yankees1962
05-03-08, 01:06 AM
If we get swept at home this weekend, I could see it happening.
No criticism so far. Hank likes to talk, but he doesn't have his father temperment nor meanness in his comments.
Yankees13
05-03-08, 01:23 AM
His father, even the George of 5 years ago, would have blown up by now. Hank is looking more and more like a guy who just doesn't have a filter with regard to what he tells the media, rather than a destructive influence.
Toaderly
05-03-08, 05:58 AM
Another Hank Steinbrenner inteview, but nothing earthshattering except his frustration that we might not make the playoffs if our pitching doesn't improve which is a sentiment that has been expressed on this forum by many Yankee fans.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080502&content_id=2630038&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy
My favorite Hankian quote from the article:
"We just can’t win one out of five games, every time Wang pitches,” Steinbrenner said. “It’s not going to work. It’s not a good win percentage. Starting pitching is where it’s at, especially in the postseason. At this point, we’ll see if we even make the postseason.”
Too bad it's very true.
Toaderly
05-03-08, 06:14 AM
"We have to find a way to right this ship."
Steinbrenner is as determined a Boss as his father, and to that end, he has talked to the front office about coming up with creative ideas to try to make a move to improve the club, such as adding a veteran starter, which is not easy to do this time of year.
"I know it's difficult," Hank said, "but I've talked to [GM] Brian Cashman and I want him to bring me every idea the front office has. I want them to rack their brains to see what we can come up with, and I've been in contact with some of the people who built the championship teams from the late 90s, people like Stick Michael."
http://forums.nyyfans.com/customavatars/avatar277_6.gif Not this guy, right?
Pinstripedbass
05-03-08, 07:38 AM
I read Hank's interview on the Yankees website. Pretty tame stuff. :boring:
VTYanksfan
05-03-08, 07:56 AM
Just goes to show you even those with no class and no intelligence can have money and power.
.... I want them to rack their brains to see what we can come up with, and I've been in contact with some of the people who built the championship teams from the late 90s, people like Stick Michael."
When I read that quote, I heard Larry David doing the Steinbrenner voice on "Seinfeld."
When I read that quote, I heard Larry David doing the Steinbrenner voice on "Seinfeld."
Next thing you'll see is that the Yanks will be signing O'Neill and Cone and bringing Bernie back out of retirement.
Zimmers' Helmet
05-03-08, 10:04 AM
When I read that quote, I heard Larry David doing the Steinbrenner voice on "Seinfeld."
Ken Phelps! Ken Phelps!!
Art Vanderlay
05-03-08, 10:15 AM
If Hank is listening to Gene Michael thats a positive development. Those of you who drink the Cashman Kool Aid may not want to hear this but the reality is Gene Michael has forgotten more about baseball and player evaluation than Brian Cashman will ever learn. Thats a fact folks.
MattUNC2003
05-03-08, 10:18 AM
Next thing you'll see is that the Yanks will be signing O'Neill and Cone and bringing Bernie back out of retirement.
I'm pretty sure that Paulie could, but I think that right now even Bernie would have a higher BA than Giambi and Robbie if he came back.
Zimmers' Helmet
05-03-08, 10:22 AM
If Hank is listening to Gene Michael thats a positive development. Those of you who drink the Cashman Kool Aid may not want to hear this but the reality is Gene Michael has forgotten more about baseball and player evaluation than Brian Cashman will ever learn. Thats a fact folks.
While there is no disputing that Gene Michael was the architect of the Yankee dynasty of 1995-2001; it's also worth mentioning that Michael was fully supportive of offering Melky and Hughes for Santana. While Hughes is clearly not ready for prime time; I cringe at thinking how much worse this ballclub would be without Melky in the lineup this year.
Rocketbooster
05-03-08, 10:53 AM
I'm not about to congratulate Gene Michael for being "right" about wanting to trade Phil Hughes...........Wow, I appreciate him for what he has done for the organization, but I still think he was wrong then and he's wrong now. I'm not going to worship at his altar and pretend that the man can't make mistakes. Can we at least wait to pass judgment on Phil ? I really don't want to hear "patience" and "Yankee fans" in the same sentence anymore - they are oxymorons. Phil has been bad this year, so it means he's going to be bad in the future? He's just a bad pitcher who will never, ever live up to his billing?
If Hank is listening to Gene Michael thats a positive development. Those of you who drink the Cashman Kool Aid may not want to hear this but the reality is Gene Michael has forgotten more about baseball and player evaluation than Brian Cashman will ever learn. Thats a fact folks.
Nice to know that you regard your opinions as facts.
What's the next gem? The sun revolves around the earth or the Moon is made out of green cheese.
Rocketbooster
05-03-08, 12:17 PM
Nice to know that you regard your opinions as facts.
What's the next gem? The sun revolves around the earth or the Moon is made out of green cheese.
LOL - I was going to respond to that post, but then I decided not to bother. Once someone has made up their mind, you can't change it and I honestly do not feel like getting into the Santana debate again.
apalradio
05-03-08, 12:19 PM
Nice to know that you regard your opinions as facts.
What's the next gem? The sun revolves around the earth or the Moon is made out of green cheese.:roflmao:
...but anyway, Michael may in fact be helpful to the cause.
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