View Full Version : Jeter must not be allowed to play shortstop
Toshiro
10-30-07, 03:42 PM
His body can't take it anymore. Neither can the team. Look at his fielding stats.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating
He needs to move to first base, where he'd be well above average.
1B - Jeter
2B - Cano
3B - Betemit
SS - Visquel
LF - Damon
CF - Melky
RF - Abreu
C - Posada
That there's the best defense the yanks have seen for decades. Plus they got plenty o pop.
Theres no doubt Jeters defense is getting bad but this wont even be an issue for another 3 or 4 years.
yanksphan
10-30-07, 03:43 PM
This should be good.
This should be good.
lol, my thoughts exactly...
A 41 year old with an OPS of .621 to take his place? No thanks.
Panamaniac42
10-30-07, 03:44 PM
Agreed (though not on Vizquel), but keep dreaming.
I look forward to more pirouettes and jump throws, at least it looks nice.
TheBamTino24
10-30-07, 03:44 PM
This continues to be the oddest postseason I've seen. Even moreso than 1995, which was the most recent overhaul.
GraniteYankee
10-30-07, 03:45 PM
How many 1B do we plan to have?
His body can't take it anymore. Neither can the team. Look at his fielding stats.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating
He needs to move to first base, where he'd be well above average.
1B - Jeter
2B - Cano
3B - Betemit
SS - Visquel
LF - Damon
CF - Melky
RF - Abreu
C - Posada
That there's the best defense the yanks have seen for decades. Plus they got plenty o pop.
what do you plan to do with Giambi and Matsui?
hellonewman
10-30-07, 03:45 PM
I wanted him to move years ago, but it ain't happening. Next.
Panamaniac42
10-30-07, 03:45 PM
I wanted him to move years ago, but it ain't happening. Next.
You mean when we acquired that guy who was a better shortstop?
cajunyankee
10-30-07, 03:46 PM
Wonder if this move was ever offered to, or requested by, ARod / Boras.
JeterForPresident
10-30-07, 03:46 PM
Jeter isn't moving from SS, and you can't just stick a guy at 1B and assume good defense or a smooth transition on offense either. We just lost Donnie and Torre, and now I have to listen to people suggesting moving Jeter again, and the worst of the worst, adding Barry Bonds...I need a rest.
YankeeStripes
10-30-07, 03:47 PM
This is worse than any of my threads.
stephsamps
10-30-07, 03:48 PM
This is worse than any of my threads.
:lol: This post made my day!
BxBomber44
10-30-07, 03:48 PM
how do i get that dancing lock?
What makes people think that such a lineup can compete against the Red Sox? Plenty of pop? Soda pop?
BxBomber44
10-30-07, 03:49 PM
:-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock- :-padlock-
got it :)
"move jeter to cf"
"move jeter to 1b"
"move jeter to catcher"
"move jeter to pitching coach"
"move jeter to a bagel store"
"move jeter to ..."
every winter. never fails.
mitchrock
10-30-07, 03:50 PM
Thank G-d Toshiro doesn't post much.
wileedog
10-30-07, 03:51 PM
"move jeter to cf"
"move jeter to 1b"
"move jeter to catcher"
"move jeter to pitching coach"
"move jeter to a bagel store"
"move jeter to ..."
every winter. never fails.
WHen you are a quite below average defensive shortstop, and particularly in past years when there was already a better one on the team, its kind of to be expected.
Not saying it will happen anytime soon tho
RogerNatural
10-30-07, 03:51 PM
Why don't they just platoon Jeter, Posada, Giambi, Phillips, Matsui, Damon, at 1B... then get Tino out of retirement for insurance...
"move jeter to cf"
"move jeter to 1b"
"move jeter to catcher"
"move jeter to pitching coach"
"move jeter to a bagel store"
"move jeter to ..."
every winter. never fails.
Move Jessica Alba to shortstop...
JeterForPresident
10-30-07, 03:51 PM
"move jeter to cf"
"move jeter to 1b"
"move jeter to catcher"
"move jeter to pitching coach"
"move jeter to a bagel store"
"move jeter to ..."
every winter. never fails.
Can he get me an everything with a shmear?!?!
JeterForPresident
10-30-07, 03:53 PM
WHen you are a quite below average defensive shortstop, and particularly in past years when there was already a better one on the team, its kind of to be expected.
Not saying it will happen anytime soon tho
I understand that argument, but while Fredo might have been the better SS, he was also the far better 3B...Jeter doesn't have the arm for 3B, so the only way to make it work was Jeter at SS and A-Rod 3B. This isn't even going into the argument that these are people not video game characters, and they don't just switch positions at the click of a button.
Dynasties R Forever
10-30-07, 03:55 PM
Theres no doubt Jeters defense is getting bad but this wont even be an issue for another 3 or 4 years.
IMO it won't take that long, I hope not.
wileedog
10-30-07, 03:57 PM
I understand that argument, but while Fredo might have been the better SS, he was also the far better 3B...Jeter doesn't have the arm for 3B, so the only way to make it work was Jeter at SS and A-Rod 3B. This isn't even going into the argument that these are people not video game characters, and they don't just switch positions at the click of a button.
Video game or no, doesn't change the problem that the Yankees have subpar defense at two of the most important spots on the field, catcher and shortstop.
It doesn't hurt to look for options.
IMO it won't take that long, I hope not.
My hope is that all of his problems defensively were due to naggin injuries. Hopefully he comes back healthy next year and can at least be servicable. Id like to have Alberto Gonzalez on the roster next year though for late inning replacement or to occasionally spell Jeter.
freebubba
10-30-07, 04:00 PM
It must be that time of year again. Seems like a really good idea though, not much else going on....
ShaneTravis
10-30-07, 04:00 PM
Well, it's not as bad as the Tribune thread.
So, you got that going for you.
JeterForPresident
10-30-07, 04:01 PM
Video game or no, doesn't change the problem that the Yankees have subpar defense at two of the most important spots on the field, catcher and shortstop.
It doesn't hurt to look for options.
No, certainly not, that wasn't my point. I was talking about the switching of A-Rod and Jeter, or moving Jeter now. Eventually it will have to be done and we can only hope Jeter goes about it in a classy way as he has always done. I just hate how people think you can tell Jeter tomorrow he is moving to 1B or 3B and think he is just going to be ok with it and it won't effect his leadership in the clubhouse and on the field, as well as his play in the field and his offense.
jughead
10-30-07, 04:02 PM
Jeter to CF would be better. He isn't slow and he has a good arm. He's a natural CF, imo.
It'll never happen, but it'd be the optimal situation. Then you stick Melky in RF and Damon/Matsui platoon at LF/DH
Then again, you'd need to then search for a shortstop.
All in all, he's fine where he is.
Jeter to CF would be better. He isn't slow and he has a good arm. He's a natural CF, imo.
It'll never happen, but it'd be the optimal situation. Then you stick Melky in RF and Damon/Matsui platoon at LF/DH
Then again, you'd need to then search for a shortstop.
All in all, he's fine where he is.
I think it's probably easier for a lifelong shortstop to make a move that keeps him in the infield. that said, I don't think the Yanks need to move Jeter very soon. He's regressed from above average to average. Nothing to panic about considering his offensive contributions. It's not easy to find an available shortstop who fields better than Jeter and is decent offensively. If the Yankees are smart, they won't sign anymore bad fielding sluggers and Jeter can move into the DH slot in 3 or 4 years. Maybe Alberto Gonzalez develops into a solid contact hitter by then.
Toshiro
10-30-07, 04:13 PM
Jeter was the worst ss in the major leagues. Significantly so. Visquel was the best, and he would be extremely cheap.
If jeter had been league average we'd have won the al east.
You all have gotten spoiled by having a superstar at every position. That's not what this team needs. This lineup is as good as any 1-8.
1. damon
2. jeter
3. cano
4. posada
5. abreu
6. melky
7. matsui
8. betemit
9. visquel
this lineup is perfectly balanced, and every player one through eight could hit 20 hrs or more. most importantly, with arod gone, no one player is expected to do more than the others. they'll be a team, for once.
given our starters, i put my money on this team over any other right now.
NYYDragoon
10-30-07, 04:16 PM
If jeter had been league average we'd have won the al east.
Because Jeter was responsible for both the sleeping offense and the inconsistent pitching?
MissingBillyMartin
10-30-07, 04:18 PM
Jeter was below average last year when he won the Gold Glove. I wish he learned to plant his feet and throw. He never did.
Toshiro
10-30-07, 04:19 PM
Because Jeter was responsible for both the sleeping offense and the inconsistent pitching?
No, he was responsible for the nearly five percent of balls that any competent shortstop would have gotten to.
JeterForPresident
10-30-07, 04:19 PM
Because Jeter was responsible for both the sleeping offense and the inconsistent pitching?
ummm....DUH! ;) :D
Don't bother, you can't win when you are dealing with great thinkers like that.
swityak11
10-30-07, 04:24 PM
Jeter had the worst UZR of any SS in baseball. Worse than Guillen who just got moved to 1B.
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/best_and_worst_of_2007_uzr/
That said, he'll never move and the Yankees will never ask him to so it's a moot point.
NYYDragoon
10-30-07, 04:26 PM
No, he was responsible for the nearly five percent of balls that any competent shortstop would have gotten to.Yeah, but see, maybe I'd buy that if we were losing pre-ASG due to a barrage of ground balls between second and third. But if I recall correctly, it was either because no one in the lineup could hit or because the pitching couldn't put up a scoreless frame (or keep a ball in the infield) to save its life.
Jeter's lack of range is one thing. But blaming him for losing the division is a little over-the-top, especially with all of the other factors at hand. I know he's the captain, but good grief.
effdamets
10-30-07, 04:26 PM
This should be good.
lol, my thoughts exactly...
I'm with you guys... I'm laughing out loud :lol:
yankeesnumber1
10-30-07, 04:30 PM
lol, my thoughts exactly...
i third...hahahaha
Omar Vizquel had a 62 OPS+ last year.
Derek may bite the big one defensively, especially when his knee is banged up, but he's still at least an above average player overall and a plusish player at his position thanks to his offense.
No amount of defense can make up for a 62 OPS+.
Michaels07
10-30-07, 04:44 PM
His body can't take it anymore. Neither can the team. Look at his fielding stats.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating
He needs to move to first base, where he'd be well above average.
1B - Jeter
2B - Cano
3B - Betemit
SS - Visquel
LF - Damon
CF - Melky
RF - Abreu
C - Posada
That there's the best defense the yanks have seen for decades. Plus they got plenty o pop.
He will be better in 08.
PirateChief
10-30-07, 04:46 PM
i agree, derek jeter should move to a bagel store
He's never been a great defender and he hasn't been good in a few years. His range is non-existent. His hands are pretty good, arm pretty good, etc. Everything about his defense is pretty good, outside of the most important for a SS which is range.
He's not moving- at least not this year- so the discussion isn't particularly enlightening. Most of us realize he's slowly going to become a defensive liability. But that's for a different time. He's not "killing" them on defense, and the rest of his overall game remains pretty darn good.
gregzzy22
10-30-07, 05:19 PM
I know its the off season but can people stop bringing this s*** up? IT WONT HAPPEN. Get over it and move on.
surge511
10-30-07, 05:23 PM
We already have a logjam at the 1B/DH spot for at least another year or two, why would we throw Jeter into that mess now? I agree that his defense is going downhill, but at least wait until some of the dead weight at those positions is gone. Matsui, Giambi, and Damon will all be off the team two years from now, then maybe when Jeter is turning 36 we can think about maybe transitioning to 1B.
But it's not happening now or anytime soon. Get used to it. Jeter is the SS for at least another 3 years probably.
flymick24
10-30-07, 05:34 PM
there's no way yankees are going to cut ties with torre and mattingly and then ask their captain to switch positions all within a matter of weeks.
yankeeman61
10-30-07, 05:46 PM
What? Jeter is not even good enough for the OF anymore? :eek:
So he plays all year on a bad knee and is incapable recovering in the off season?
Now he's a cripple and can't handle any position but 1B? :lol:
That's some 1st ballot HOF player we have. Maybe we should just spare ourselves all of this intelligent "debate" and put him out with the "rest of" the trash right now. One bad post season and he's "done", who cares about everything he has done for the franchise? Yesterday's news.
Why do people hate Yankee fans? See: threads like this one :)
GimeMoMuny
10-30-07, 05:50 PM
I was really hoping that Jeter would manage the team.
His body can't take it anymore. Neither can the team. Look at his fielding stats.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating
He needs to move to first base, where he'd be well above average.
1B - Jeter
2B - Cano
3B - Betemit
SS - Visquel
LF - Damon
CF - Melky
RF - Abreu
C - Posada
That there's the best defense the yanks have seen for decades. Plus they got plenty o pop.
Uh, who made you the manager? I don't see this happening until 3 or 4 more years.
the_coach
10-30-07, 05:54 PM
The Yankees need a third baseman...and I think Jeter would make a good one since he wouldn't need much range...but that would make too much sense (even four years ago that made too much sense).
the_coach
10-30-07, 05:56 PM
Jeter was the worst ss in the major leagues. Significantly so. Visquel was the best, and he would be extremely cheap.
If jeter had been league average we'd have won the al east.
You all have gotten spoiled by having a superstar at every position. That's not what this team needs. This lineup is as good as any 1-8.
1. damon
2. jeter
3. cano
4. posada
5. abreu
6. melky
7. matsui
8. betemit
9. visquel
this lineup is perfectly balanced, and every player one through eight could hit 20 hrs or more. most importantly, with arod gone, no one player is expected to do more than the others. they'll be a team, for once.
given our starters, i put my money on this team over any other right now.
Wow that lineup sucks...
I don't think Jeter needs to be converted from shortstop, that is preposterous. What we need to do is what I like to call the "Jeter Shift" where Cano shifts over from the other side of second base to approximately 3 feet directly to Jeter's left. Mientkiewicz can obviously handle the rest
TheTinoMobile
10-30-07, 06:18 PM
I have an idea.. let's leave Derek Jeter at Shortstop... hire a monkey.. teach it to play 1B, DH Giambi and get rid of Matsui.. hey look, I solved our problem.
1. Johnny Damon
2: Derek Jeter
3: Abreu
4: Giambi
5: Posada
6: Betemit
7: Bubbles the Monkey
8: Cano
9: Cabrera
I assume Bubbles has more plate discipline than Cano and Cabrera, since he's not strong enough to swing the bat technically.
nnysiny
10-30-07, 06:27 PM
Jeter had the worst UZR of any SS in baseball. Worse than Guillen who just got moved to 1B.
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/best_and_worst_of_2007_uzr/
That said, he'll never move and the Yankees will never ask him to so it's a moot point.
good gravy, Jeter was at -27?! between him and Cabrera's -28, we should have plenty of singles through the infield for years to come
b_joseph
10-30-07, 06:47 PM
When it becomes a problem/when you have a better replacement in mind...Come see me.
When you take his bat into the equation..Jeter makes up for his defensive shortcomings
The Yankee Kahuna
10-30-07, 06:51 PM
Jeter should've played CF, 1B and also managed while being team captain...
roblyo33
10-30-07, 06:59 PM
What? Jeter is not even good enough for the OF anymore? :eek:
So he plays all year on a bad knee and is incapable recovering in the off season?
Now he's a cripple and can't handle any position but 1B? :lol:
That's some 1st ballot HOF player we have. Maybe we should just spare ourselves all of this intelligent "debate" and put him out with the "rest of" the trash right now. One bad post season and he's "done", who cares about everything he has done for the franchise? Yesterday's news.
Why do people hate Yankee fans? See: threads like this one :)
Very well stated!!!!!
stephsamps
10-30-07, 07:07 PM
i agree, derek jeter should move to a bagel store
I just ordered a bagel. Too bad I can't order a Jeter!
No, he was responsible for the nearly five percent of balls that any competent shortstop would have gotten to.
hahahaha....this argument is ridiculous. just as ridiculous as "range factor" as a "stat". you can't say someone "should get to" a ball. it is possible that most of those balls were out of the range of anyone. worst stat ever. worst thread ever. jeter is a good shortstop. you people need to take these "stats" with a grain of salt. i'm sick of hearing this crap.
yanksphan
10-30-07, 07:12 PM
hahahaha....this argument is ridiculous. just as ridiculous as "range factor" as a "stat". you can't say someone "should get to" a ball. it is possible that most of those balls were out of the range of anyone. worst stat ever. worst thread ever. jeter is a good shortstop. you people need to take these "stats" with a grain of salt. i'm sick of hearing this crap.
Just because you don't understand how to draw a conclusion from them, doesn't make them crap.
a2ruYankee
10-30-07, 07:19 PM
Theres no doubt Jeters defense is getting bad but this wont even be an issue for another 3 or 4 years.
Now that AROD is gone.
Blame it on AROD.
Is there a downhill trend for Jeter since AROD starting playing next to him? :D
The Q Bomb
10-30-07, 07:21 PM
This is worse than any of my threads. Got some of mine beat, too! :D
I can't picture Jeter playing anything other than SS :(
hardrain
10-30-07, 07:27 PM
It's normal for a SS to continue to lose range as he gets into his 30s. Jeter is not immune to that. Eventually, he should move to 1B or 3B.
I doubt that will be next year, but Girardi is the kind of guy who will read the UZ ratings and understand what they mean. I believe he is also the kind of guy who won't mind making tough decisions. But it's for down the road.
wang+cano=future
10-30-07, 07:35 PM
Sigh..............His defense is declining but not to the point where he needs to be barred from playing SS ever again and moved to 1B.
hardrain
10-30-07, 07:43 PM
Sigh..............His defense is declining but not to the point where he needs to be barred from playing SS ever again and moved to 1B.
To me it's a question of where is he most valuable to the team. There is no question he is a HOF offensive player. He does many good things defensively too (instinct, smarts, pop-ups, throwing and dribblers that he must come in for.)
Unfortuantely, the thing he is bad at is really the most important thing for a SS-- range on grounders.
As his range continues to erode (and it's already the worst in baseball), it will be imperative to move him, and that should not only help the team, but it will extend his career.
Ripken moved, Banks moved, some guy that used to play for Seattle and Texas move when he came here (I forget his name) Is Jeter above Banks and Ripken? His time will come.
wang+cano=future
10-30-07, 07:50 PM
To me it's a question of where is he most valuable to the team. There is no question he is a HOF offensive player. He does many good things defensively too (instinct, smarts, pop-ups, throwing and dribblers that he must come in for.)
Unfortuantely, the thing he is bad at is really the most important thing for a SS-- range on grounders.
As his range continues to erode (and it's already the worst in baseball), it will be imperative to move him, and that should not only help the team, but it will extend his career.
Ripken moved, Banks moved, some guy that used to play for Seattle and Texas move when he came here (I forget his name) Is Jeter above Banks and Ripken? His time will come.
I agree with you that due to his age eventually he will probably move. I just don't think he should not be allowed to play shortstop ever again.....
AlbanyColonieYankee
10-30-07, 08:08 PM
When it becomes a problem/when you have a better replacement in mind...Come see me.
When you take his bat into the equation..Jeter makes up for his defensive shortcomings
That pretty much sums it up in two nice short sentences.
i think jeter's defense could be better. heck, it HAS been better. but i really dont see the real need to move him to a different position. maybe in a few years...
Can he get me an everything with a shmear?!?!
sure he can, as long as it's not to his left.
B in ALB
10-30-07, 08:51 PM
Jeter can play shortstop on this team as long as he wants - he's not moving to 1st, he's not moving to CF, he's not moving to replace Skippy.
Who comes up with these ridiculous apocolyptic threads? Good god - if any player on this team can help maintain a state of normalcy, it's Jeter - the LAST thing that needs to happen is tossing him on the 1 bag.
...and i got MINE in Blazing Copper!
wileedog
10-30-07, 08:55 PM
I don't think Jeter needs to be converted from shortstop, that is preposterous. What we need to do is what I like to call the "Jeter Shift" where Cano shifts over from the other side of second base to approximately 3 feet directly to Jeter's left. Mientkiewicz can obviously handle the rest
:lol::lol:
wileedog
10-30-07, 08:59 PM
Who comes up with these ridiculous apocolyptic threads? Good god - if any player on this team can help maintain a state of normalcy, it's Jeter - the LAST thing that needs to happen is tossing him on the 1 bag.
Yup, because it makes TOTAL sense to change the philosophy of the team from an offensive one to a team built around the pitching and leaving a completely subpar shortstop out there for as long as his career lasts.
Serious question, what's wrong with Jete's arm at 3rd? It ain't a cannon (for a 3B), but it ain't cheese either.
Babe Rules
10-30-07, 09:06 PM
Cmon.
JeterForPresident
10-30-07, 09:08 PM
sure he can, as long as it's not to his left.
LOL, that was very clever, touche salesman!
DandyAndy46
10-30-07, 09:09 PM
His body can't take it anymore. Neither can the team. Look at his fielding stats.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating
He needs to move to first base, where he'd be well above average.
1B - Jeter
2B - Cano
3B - Betemit
SS - Visquel
LF - Damon
CF - Melky
RF - Abreu
C - Posada
That there's the best defense the yanks have seen for decades. Plus they got plenty o pop.
You might want a little cache around here before going all BobbyJr and SierraMist on us...
B in ALB
10-30-07, 09:09 PM
Yup, because it makes TOTAL sense to change the philosophy of the team from an offensive one to a team built around the pitching and leaving a completely subpar shortstop out there for as long as his career lasts.
Serious question, what's wrong with Jete's arm at 3rd? It ain't a cannon (for a 3B), but it ain't cheese either.
and now i know why i haven't taken a look at posts for about 2 years...
Jeter to 3rd? Who's your suggestion for SS, genius? ARod? HAHAHAHAAHA!
wileedog
10-30-07, 09:10 PM
Jeter to 3rd? Who's your suggestion for SS, genius? ARod? HAHAHAHAAHA!
That was my suggestion 4 years ago, but numbnuts like you decided it was more important the Captains feelings weren't hurt.
B in ALB
10-30-07, 09:12 PM
That was my suggestion 4 years ago, but numbnuts like you decided it was more important the Captains feelings weren't hurt.
Feelings? Right. I'm sure the Yankees invested all those Millions on ARod b/c of Jeter's Feelings.
And why aren't you managing the Yankees again? You seem to have all the answers. Even like 4 years ago you knew!
wileedog
10-30-07, 09:13 PM
Feelings? Right. I'm sure the Yankees invested all those Millions on ARod b/c of Jeter's Feelings.
And why aren't you managing the Yankees again? You seem to have all the answers. Even like 4 years ago you knew!
Wow, I haven't been hit with the "Why aren't you the coach argument?" in years.
You really have been away a long time!
B in ALB
10-30-07, 09:17 PM
Wow, I haven't been hit with the "Why aren't you the coach argument?" in years.
You really have been away a long time!
Ok. Night, night Willeedog - I just can't handle your knowledge for another minute.
Don't forget to give mommy a kiss before you go off to sleep, mmmmkay? You've got PE and band practice tomorrow!
His body can't take it anymore. Neither can the team. Look at his fielding stats.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating
He needs to move to first base, where he'd be well above average.
1B - Jeter
2B - Cano
3B - Betemit
SS - Visquel
LF - Damon
CF - Melky
RF - Abreu
C - Posada
That there's the best defense the yanks have seen for decades. Plus they got plenty o pop.
You should be tarred and feathered, I'm serious too. Question..Why is it that these wackos always seem to come out no matter what state the yankees are in?
wileedog
10-30-07, 09:19 PM
Ok. Night, night Willeedog - I just can't handle your knowledge for another minute.
Don't forget to give mommy a kiss before you go off to sleep, mmmmkay? You've got PE and band practice tomorrow!
F***, I wish.
BillBuckner
10-30-07, 09:19 PM
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Dexileno51
10-30-07, 09:22 PM
Vizquel..Really? My grandfather it's younger than him
JeterRodriguezSheff
10-30-07, 09:23 PM
Ok. Night, night Willeedog - I just can't handle your knowledge for another minute.
Don't forget to give mommy a kiss before you go off to sleep, mmmmkay? You've got PE and band practice tomorrow!
Ahh the old "I cant beat him in a legit and logical argument, and most of his arguments involve stats and math and ................, and math is hard and confusing, so im just going to go with the overused and cliche insults that arent even funny or true" routine. Pretty compelling stuff.
BklynYankees
10-30-07, 09:28 PM
:-padlock-:-padlock-:-padlock- <-- Please
wileedog
10-30-07, 09:33 PM
:-padlock-:-padlock-:-padlock- <-- Please
Yes, this thread contains logical information that directly contradicts all True Yankee(tm) Logic and Proper Doctrine.
Why the mere though of Derek Jeter not at SS is heresy. Blaspheme in the extreme!
By all means lock this thread, because if the Yanks don't have a shortstop with the range of a statue, by God they are not Yankees at all!!!
p.s. And yes, I know this topic has been done to death. And yes, the Yankee PR department will probably never let Jeter move. But damn it gets frustrating when you watch other team's shortstops.
BklynYankees
10-30-07, 09:41 PM
I agree that Jeter's defense has been horrible this year and not so good his whole career. I just dont think there is anything we can talk about here because it will never happen and even if Jeter was moveable, why should any1 think his defense will be any better somewhere else no matter how much leff physically demanding the position is defensively.
JeffWeaverFan
10-31-07, 01:35 AM
Jeter is a very bad defensive SS. There's really no denying that. Of course, who would we put there right now to replace him? He'll be there for at least 2 more years.
JeffWeaverFan
10-31-07, 01:39 AM
Jeter can play shortstop on this team as long as he wants
Why? Shouldn't the Yankees do what is best for the Yankees?
Game4Tino
10-31-07, 09:11 AM
Yes, this thread contains logical information that directly contradicts all True Yankee(tm) Logic and Proper Doctrine.
Why the mere though of Derek Jeter not at SS is heresy. Blaspheme in the extreme!
By all means lock this thread, because if the Yanks don't have a shortstop with the range of a statue, by God they are not Yankees at all!!!
p.s. And yes, I know this topic has been done to death. And yes, the Yankee PR department will probably never let Jeter move. But damn it gets frustrating when you watch other team's shortstops.
My sentiments, exactly. Watching Tulowitski and a myriad of others is really pretty frustrating when you mentally place Jeter out there and know he wouldn't make those plays. But alas, it is as most have stated, The Captain is not moving any time soon.
Well what I read in Japanese messageboard yesterday, it seems Yankees (and Blue Jays) shows interest in Japanese SS named Tomohiro Nioka. He was considered as a poor man's Akinori Iwamura.
Hitman23
10-31-07, 10:26 AM
I'm pretty confident that no matter what anyone's opinion on his ability to play there, Jeter is the SS, we need to deal with it, and work around it. I don't see it changing.
Yankees Empire
10-31-07, 10:39 AM
You know, I would be willing to participate in and read a discussion of whether or not the Yankees would benefit if Derek Jeter would move to a position other than shortstop.
But Omar Vizquel? Really?? That's the best you got? Omar Freakin' Vizquel? Might as well hang a sign on the front of Yankee Stadium: "We're Not Serious About Winning Anything."
Omar Vizquel?? C'mon.
swityak11
10-31-07, 10:44 AM
The Vizquel suggestion was obvioulsy crap but the vitriol being spewed at the OP is uncalled for. It's legitimate to suggest that when you have the worst fielding SS in baseball, that he be moved to a position where he's less of a defensive liability than the middle infield.
We go over it every year and everyone knows it won't happen because the organization will allow him to keep his "Captain SS" role ad infinitum despite it probably not being best for the team. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed on a message board where we talk about ways to improve the club.
Hitman23
10-31-07, 10:49 AM
The Vizquel suggestion was obvioulsy crap but the vitriol being spewed at the OP is uncalled for. It's legitimate to suggest that when you have the worst fielding SS in baseball, that he be moved to a position where he's less of a defensive liability than the middle infield.
We go over it every year and everyone knows it won't happen because the organization will allow him to keep his "Captain SS" role ad infinitum despite it probably not being best for the team. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed on a message board where we talk about ways to improve the club.fair enough.... but have you witnessed the vicious statements that almost always come out of it split the board in half. Then you have the perception of people hating him, and others thinking he is god. It's impossible to take a middle ground. I just think it's pointless. but that's just me.
Just because you don't understand how to draw a conclusion from them, doesn't make them crap.
no, i understand the "stat" completely. and it's total garbage. there's absolutely no way to say that someone "should" get to a ball. that would require all balls to be hit in discrete places and players always playing in the exact same spot. it's just not how the game is played and there's no way to indicate it with a "stat".
here's the definition of the "stat" in question:
Range Factor (commonly abbreviated RF) is a baseball statistic developed by Bill James. It is calculated by dividing putouts and assists by number of innings or games played at a given defense position. The statistic is premised on the notion that the total number of outs that a player participates in is more relevant in evaluating his defensive play than the percentage of cleanly handled chances as calculated by the conventional statistic fielding percentage.
this "stat" says you're a better player if you get more chances and make the plays. now, it's completely possible that the "best defensive shortstop" based on this stat got a majority of his putouts and assists on routine plays that any major leaguer would make. it has absolutely no bearing on his "range". i don't see how this is even a discussion. it's so clearly a ridiculous "stat".
i know this isn't the only thing that you guys are basing it on, there's also this "zone rating" which is just as ridiculous to me. you CANNOT say someone should get to a ball. baseball is not a discrete sport with absolute positions and lines for balls to travel. if it were, then you'd have an argument.
if your coach shades you to the left a step for a particular hitter, that can considerably affect your ability to get a ball that is in your "zone". does a coach's positioning of a player make him a worse defensive player?
i seriously doubt that people that buy into this crap ever actually played baseball. they seem just like "stat junkies" that have no actual bearing on the game.
Game4Tino
10-31-07, 11:16 AM
no, i understand the "stat" completely. and it's total garbage. there's absolutely no way to say that someone "should" get to a ball. that would require all balls to be hit in discrete places and players always playing in the exact same spot. it's just not how the game is played and there's no way to indicate it with a "stat".
here's the definition of the "stat" in question:
this "stat" says you're a better player if you get more chances and make the plays. now, it's completely possible that the "best defensive shortstop" based on this stat got a majority of his putouts and assists on routine plays that any major leaguer would make. it has absolutely no bearing on his "range". i don't see how this is even a discussion. it's so clearly a ridiculous "stat".
i know this isn't the only thing that you guys are basing it on, there's also this "zone rating" which is just as ridiculous to me. you CANNOT say someone should get to a ball. baseball is not a discrete sport with absolute positions and lines for balls to travel. if it were, then you'd have an argument.
I agree with that stat being bunk, but...
If you watch the Yankees everyday, which I am sure most of us do, you can see evidence of Jeter having limited range. He fields nothing hit to his left and last year he wasn't moving to his right either, granted that may have been due to nagging injuries. He also made a ton of bad throws this season, not sure what that was about. I think a new SS would make a big difference, but again it's not happening.
yanksphan
10-31-07, 11:16 AM
no, i understand the "stat" completely. and it's total garbage. there's absolutely no way to say that someone "should" get to a ball. that would require all balls to be hit in discrete places and players always playing in the exact same spot. it's just not how the game is played and there's no way to indicate it with a "stat".
I never said you didn't understand the stat - although I'm beginning to wonder. I said you don't understand how to draw a conclusion from it which is evident by your continual harping on the "should get to a ball" comment.
Scorekeepers decided who should get to a ball every game. That's how errors are distributed, no?
Range Factor has absolutely nothing to do with what a player 'should' do. It has everything to do with what he actually did do.
RF= (Putouts + Assists)/Innings
Yankeesfan811
10-31-07, 11:21 AM
How many 1B do we plan to have?
the other 17 players on the roster......
effdamets
10-31-07, 11:33 AM
I never said you didn't understand the stat - although I'm beginning to wonder. I said you don't understand how to draw a conclusion from it which is evident by your continual harping on the "should get to a ball" comment.
Scorekeepers decided who should get to a ball every game. That's how errors are distributed, no?
Range Factor has absolutely nothing to do with what a player 'should' do. It has everything to do with what he actually did do.
RF= (Putouts + Assists)/Innings
No - this is not how errors are determined. Errors are determined by the ability to make a play on a ball that the fielder has already gotten to.
My arguement is, what is good range? 4 steps to each side, 5 steps, 6? I think bad pitching has a factor in infielder ranges (and outfield). When the batters are hitting aspirins past fielders, there is now way you can expect a fielder to get to them. Seems everyone has a pretty decent range when batter are hitting fisters on the ground against Rivera.
I know what everyone is talking about when they mention Tulowitski. He seemed to get to all those balls hit up the middle during the playoffs... But the infield grass in at Coors field is cut higher than a cornfield! There are too many "opinions" in what goes into determining these fielding metrics in order for me to take them as too serious.
JohnnyDamonfan
10-31-07, 11:34 AM
the other 17 players on the roster......
Then what 14 people could be put in the DH spot?
yanksphan
10-31-07, 11:39 AM
No - this is not how errors are determined. Errors are determined by the ability to make a play on a ball that the fielder has already gotten to.
My arguement is, what is good range? 4 steps to each side, 5 steps, 6? I think bad pitching has a factor in infielder ranges (and outfield). When the batters are hitting aspirins past fielders, there is now way you can expect a fielder to get to them. Seems everyone has a pretty decent range when batter are hitting fisters on the ground against Rivera.
I know what everyone is talking about when they mention Tulowitski. He seemed to get to all those balls hit up the middle during the playoffs... But the infield grass in at Coors field is cut higher than a cornfield! There are too many "opinions" in what goes into determining these fielding metrics in order for me to take them as too serious.
You are correct about the errors thing. I was giving a more simplistic answer given the original poster's difficulty understanding the statistic.
I agree that RF isn't the tell all stat. That's quite obvious. Just like RBI often depends on the other 8 player's ability to get on base. There are outside factors that can skew the statistic.
I do think the statistic holds some value however when making a judgment on a player's overall body of work. A slice of the pie if you will.
WashingtonYankee
10-31-07, 11:58 AM
Excuse me? Jeter at first base? Ha!
bigwampum
10-31-07, 12:11 PM
If Jeter + new SS > Jeter + 3B/1B, then I'd be all for it. But it is much harder to find production out of shortstop then pretty much every position but catcher. So until we have a real good option for a replacement SS, it doesn't make sense to move Jetes, regardless of his defensive... uh, shortcomings.
wang+cano=future
10-31-07, 12:18 PM
Excuse me? Jeter at first base? Ha!
The word Ha! is dead to me....:mad:
Dr. Gonzo
10-31-07, 12:22 PM
stick jeter at third, and get a shortstop
that is if a SS replacement is better then a 3b solution
LeapsNbounds
10-31-07, 12:23 PM
Yes, this thread contains logical information that directly contradicts all True Yankee(tm) Logic and Proper Doctrine.
Why the mere though of Derek Jeter not at SS is heresy. Blaspheme in the extreme!
By all means lock this thread, because if the Yanks don't have a shortstop with the range of a statue, by God they are not Yankees at all!!!
p.s. And yes, I know this topic has been done to death. And yes, the Yankee PR department will probably never let Jeter move. But damn it gets frustrating when you watch other team's shortstops.
The arguements are acurate, but we already acquired a GG caliber SS and promptly moved him to 3B.
This issue has been beaten so far into the ground around here that I think everyone at some level agrees.
The FO just won't make it happen so it is silly to talk about.
YankeesAce4Life
10-31-07, 12:37 PM
Jeter would make a great CF. He has a ton of speed and a good arm. Just watching him making those over the shoulder catches makes me want him in CF. This would never happen. Wouldn't it be nice to have Jeter's name as CF with the other legendary Yankee CF's.
if your coach shades you to the left a step for a particular hitter, that can considerably affect your ability to get a ball that is in your "zone". does a coach's positioning of a player make him a worse defensive player?
i seriously doubt that people that buy into this crap ever actually played baseball. they seem just like "stat junkies" that have no actual bearing on the game.
unless torre's the only manager to engage in position/situational alignment, then your argument simply holds no merit at all.
mountains of isolated data, cid. mountains of it suggests jeter gets to the least # of balls than any other SS.
that drives up ERAs. that prolongs innings.
that's just fact.
The arguements are acurate, but we already acquired a GG caliber SS and promptly moved him to 3B.
This issue has been beaten so far into the ground around here that I think everyone at some level agrees.
The FO just won't make it happen so it is silly to talk about.
just because management won't remove the elephant in the room, doesn't mean the elephant shouldn't be addressed. particularly when he lets his lunch loose on the floor.
:o
SoCal Pinstriper
10-31-07, 12:54 PM
Ok. Night, night Willeedog - I just can't handle your knowledge for another minute.
Don't forget to give mommy a kiss before you go off to sleep, mmmmkay? You've got PE and band practice tomorrow!Let's try to keep the personal attacks out of this.
SoCal Pinstriper
10-31-07, 12:57 PM
We can, and will I'm sure dredge this topic up again. Enough for this round
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