View Full Version : Was the Yankee offer to Torre Fair?
budstinks
10-19-07, 08:19 AM
I thought it was very fair. But the press today has been reaming out the Yankees.
Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.
$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.
I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.
I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).
Yankees1962
10-19-07, 08:21 AM
I thought it was very fair.
Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.
$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.
I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.
I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).
Was Torre underpaid from 1996-2001 for his early success?
In Mo I Trust
10-19-07, 08:23 AM
The Yankees gave Torre an above market contract offer.
JeffWeaverFan
10-19-07, 08:26 AM
More than fair. The guy has not done a good job of late - did he expect a raise?
Casey37
10-19-07, 08:27 AM
Yes it was. Still, there's something missing here. I'm really looking forward to what he has to say about what supposedly transpired in that meeting.
PinstripePride
10-19-07, 08:27 AM
Yes, fair in my view.
Janttje
10-19-07, 08:28 AM
The offer was fair..
budstinks
10-19-07, 08:28 AM
Was Torre underpaid from 1996-2001 for his early success?
From 97 to 99 he made about a $1 per year. I bet that was one of the highest paid managerial salaries. Managerial salaries have changed dramatically in the last 5-years, (driven by what the Yanks paid Torre).
From 00 to 01, he made $3 mil per season. I would bet that was the highest managerial salary in baseball.
So no, I don't think he was ever underpaid. His first couple years, he was still near the top even at a 1/2 mil. That's what managers were paid then.
So why should the yanks get rediculed for ONLY offering their manager the highest pay in baseball.
Shouldn't they be praised for showing financial restraint?
RhodeyYankee2638
10-19-07, 08:28 AM
5 times the league average in pay for managers, plus $3 mil in bonuses, which lets face it, he was automatically going to get at least $1 mil of that
bobby jr
10-19-07, 08:33 AM
Perhaps it wasn't the dollar amount so much as it was only a one year contract offer, the fact that it was a pay cut. Also the provisions about reaching the WS as a "performance based" model, that would have to be hard to swallow, given the "crap shoot" nature of the playoffs with a lot of luck being involved.
BRNXBMRS
10-19-07, 08:35 AM
This contract wasnt about the money. Torre lost his allies within the organization. Good for Joe, I am glad he told the yanks to shove it.
budstinks
10-19-07, 08:36 AM
Perhaps it wasn't the dollar amount so much as it was only a one year contract offer, the fact that it was a pay cut. Also the provisions about reaching the WS as a "performance based" model, that would have to be hard to swallow, given the "crap shoot" nature of the playoffs with a lot of luck being involved.
Personally, I'm glad to see the Yankees use some post season incentive clauses.
I mean seriously, barring catastrophe, the Yanks money (ability to keep 6 starting pitchers when others are lucky to have 4) should keep them in the hunt every year for a playoff spot.
PeteRFNY
10-19-07, 08:37 AM
Was Torre underpaid from 1996-2001 for his early success?
In fairness, he was actually waaaay overpaid after that because he was able to use the cache of "four rings in five years" to hold a PR gun to George's head, much in the same way a player seeking a new contract after a bunch of great years would. George gave Joe the money he wanted in good faith and has no championships since to show for it.
Joe's dugout comas (the 'slump-and-stare') used to be amusing when the team was bringing home flags every year - or, at least making it to the World Series. The last few "one-and done" years, it hasn't been quite as much fun to watch. No one is saying Joe should have been another Piniella, freaking out and throwing bases over the myriad of calls that screwed the Yankees in the ALDS, or Billy Martin pacing and clapping the team on as if he were still playing...but a pulse of some kind would have been nice.
The Hermit Crabs of complacency had long since set in, going back to 2003. I was shocked that Joe wasn't given the Stump Merrill treatment after the 2004 debacle, and to be quite homest, felt that the offer the Yankees made to him yesterday was MORE than fair considering how the last batch of post-seasons have gone. I've always felt that this Yankees team under Torre won four championships, but it really should have been 7 or 8.
I appreciate what Joe did while he was here, but even the great Casey Stengel was finally given his walking papers. Joe was not gonna be here until the end of time - it's better to make some changes now than waiting until things became REALLY ugly. It's the best move for everybody.
budstinks
10-19-07, 08:38 AM
Perhaps it wasn't the dollar amount so much as it was only a one year contract offer, the fact that it was a pay cut. Also the provisions about reaching the WS as a "performance based" model, that would have to be hard to swallow, given the "crap shoot" nature of the playoffs with a lot of luck being involved.
Well, based on what the Yankees expect, what else could he have expected?
I wouldn't have wanted to give him a three year deal either.
I'm guessing he thought he had a lot more leverage than he really did and overplayed it right out of the best paying managerial job in baseball.
If he finds a job elsewhere, I doubt he gets Pinella type money.
Personally, I think he looks tired and needs a year off.
JeffWeaverFan
10-19-07, 08:41 AM
If he finds a job elsewhere, I doubt he gets Pinella type money.
I disagree with that. I could see him getting the LA job in 2009 and getting $4M a year, or something like that.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 08:42 AM
I didn't like the whole tenor of the contract. You either believe in him or you do not. You offer him a multi-year deal without silly incentives or say you're going in another direction.
Don't give me this one year stuff with this nonsense of putting a carrott in front him of him for the posesason. The guy has been here for 12 years. That's an insult...like he wasn't trying, or "motivated" as Levine alluded to. Yeah, he wasn't motivated. This freaking overpriced team was 21-29 and he got them back.
And you guys really think it's fair to put the manager in a spot where he could burn out young pitchers for incentives? WTF? Or pay him a $1M for winning 3 ALDS games?
I think we should instill paycuts on Wang, Rodriguez, and Jeter, too. Let them reach their full salary per round of the postseason.
I would have told them to shove it face to face as well. You have to have some dignity in life, and Torre has accomplished enough and has enough resources to do so.
Here's the kicker: I would have voted "fair" if he declined a guranateed a 2 year, $10M deal.
YankeePride1967
10-19-07, 08:46 AM
Was Torre underpaid from 1996-2001 for his early success?
I think we all know that whether it be a manager or player, we are paid based upon what we did in the past and not for the current year. If Joe was underpaid those years, he more than made up for that from 02-06. His last contract was based upon his remarkable record through 2003. Since then the Yanks blew that 3-0 lead in 04 followed by three straight first round defeats with two of the three being sound defeats. Is it fair the manager seems to get most of the blame? Of course not but that's how things work. His 05-07 record, if he wanted to be paid based on performance when he got his last extension, warrants a slight decrease to where he would still be guaranteed to be the highest paid manager in the game. But as I believe you said in another thread, I think Joe felt the Yanks didn't want him back. We'll find out more later.
goin for 27
10-19-07, 08:46 AM
No, it was not fair. The offer was designed to have Torre refuse. It is not about money at that point. Incentives? Is the Yankee Brass, Levine, etc being paid in incentives? No.
Should the Yanks offer ARod a one year, drastically reduced salary with incentives if he hits in the postseason? Of course not. How about Rivera? Worst year of his career, statistically. Offer him a reduced contract?
The Yanks should have sacked up and said that they just wanted to go in another direction, which would have been the dignified way to go. Torre was nothing if not classy in his tenure, this was ham handed, and a stunt.
People here can argue left and right, but watch the networks, read the respected writers, this was a classless, gutless way to have Torre go.
(And I was ambivalent, and could see both sides of him staying/going)
YankeePride1967
10-19-07, 08:47 AM
I didn't like the whole tenor of the contract. You either believe in him or you do not. You offer him a multi-year deal without silly incentives or say you're going in another direction.
Don't give me this one year stuff with this nonsense of putting a carrott in front him of him for the posesason. The guy has been here for 12 years. That's an insult...like he wasn't trying, or "motivated" as Levine alluded to. Yeah, he wasn't motivated. This freaking overpriced team was 21-29 and he got them back.
And you guys really think it's fair to put the manager in a spot where he could burn out young pitchers for incentives? WTF? Or pay him a $1M for winning 3 ALDS games?
I think we should instill paycuts on Wang, Rodriguez, and Jeter, too. Let them reach their full salary per round of the postseason.
I would have told them to shove it face to face as well. You have to have some dignity in life, and Torre has accomplished enough and has enough resources to do so.
Here's the kicker: I would have voted "fair" if he declined a guranateed a 2 year, $10M deal.
I was fine with this one or a 2/10 contract.
budstinks
10-19-07, 08:47 AM
I disagree with that. I could see him getting the LA job in 2009 and getting $4M a year, or something like that.
Who knows what the going rate for managers will be in 09?
We're talking 08. Why would any team pay him $4 mil knowing there isn't any other team out there (other than the Yanks that would?)
Maybe I just don't see the value in Torre. He runs a steady ship, but he manages pitchers like crap.
yankees135
10-19-07, 08:50 AM
I thought it was very fair. But the press today has been reaming out the Yankees.
Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.
$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.
<b>
I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.
</b>
I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).
I can't say I blame him for that. I think he was not at all concerned about the $ as much as the years. Had they offered 10 million for 2 years, I suspect he would ahve taken the offer despite the paycut. Certainly 15 million for 3 years I can't imagine him turning down.
That would have been saying, "We thought about it a lot, and we decided that you are clearly the best man for the job. We would like to commit ourselves to you for the next few years."
A one year contract is not a "fair" offer (depending on what you mean by fair I supose). But with a 1 year offer, you know if the yankees got off to a lousy start, we'd be hearing about how Torre was going to be fired all over again.
He would be crazy to take the contract.
Jdkush10
10-19-07, 08:50 AM
Personally, I'm glad to see the Yankees use some post season incentive clauses.
I mean seriously, barring catastrophe, the Yanks money (ability to keep 6 starting pitchers when others are lucky to have 4) should keep them in the hunt every year for a playoff spot.
Postseason incentive clauses for a manager are ridiculous. Yes, the manager has some influence on the outcome of the game, but the results are ultimately decided by the manager. It's not Torre's fault that Jeter, A-Rod, et. al did not play to the same standard as they did during the regular season. Even if he was offered $5M, that is still close to a 25% pay cut - that's a severe decrease in salary (don't get me wrong, still A LOT of money) and Torre's pride obviously came into play there. I know it'd be awfully hard for me if my employer came to me with an offer that was even 10% less than the salary I currently make, let alone 25%.
The Yankees have made the playoffs 12 straight years under Torre. The White Sox went from winning the World Series to nearly finishing in last place two years later, and they extend Guillen - by that criteria, how in the world do you not extend Torre? A one year extension basically tells him that he will be a lame duck manager for the 2008 season. I know his managerial decisions can be somewhat questionable, but he deserved a better shake than this. He was essentially given an offer that the Yankees knew he would turn down.
mentalgidget
10-19-07, 08:52 AM
Is the next manager going to get a similarly strutcured deal?
If they hold the line and use a "perfomrance based model" for the next manager then, I would think the offer to Torre was More than fair but if they end up giving the next skipper a multi year deal, that doesn't have an option tied to postseason performance, I think that would speak volumes about what their intentions were with Torre
junkman73
10-19-07, 08:56 AM
The offer was more than fair. I don't know if it was fair to Joe to make it a 'take it or leave it' situation. I think it should have been the starting point for a dialogue, but the money and the opportunity is very generous.
Joe knows its WS or bust with the Yankees. He knew that before he signed his last deal. He's almost a victim of the success he helped create. Kind of ironic.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 08:58 AM
I think a better way to ask about the fairness is this:
Do you think the Yankees actually wanted Torre back?
I don't think so. And that's their right. I would have handled it differently, that's all.
Bleacher_Creature
10-19-07, 08:59 AM
This was a slap in the face, I don't think it was about the money, it probably had something to do with the lack of respect given to him by the Yankee brass. I want to hear Joe's side of the story, I'll trust him more than Levine. Joe has nothing to prove to nobody in my eyes.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:00 AM
Is the next manager going to get a similarly strutcured deal?
If they hold the line and use a "perfomrance based model" for the next manager then, I would think the offer to Torre was More than fair but if they end up giving the next skipper a multi year deal, that doesn't have an option tied to postseason performance, I think that would speak volumes about what their intentions were with Torre
If the next manager gets Pinella type money ($3.5 mil), I'd be surprised.
Obviously, if it is Buck, he MIGHT get $3.5 mil, but who else out there would get $5 mil?
Maybe LaRussa?
So your talking apples and oranges. A two-year $3.5 mil/per to me isn't as good as what Torre was offered.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 09:01 AM
If it's Showalter, say goodbye to Rodriguez.
destelle
10-19-07, 09:02 AM
Yes it was. Still, there's something missing here. I'm really looking forward to what he has to say about what supposedly transpired in that meeting.
I agree with this 100% ... there's more to it.
JohnnyDamonfan
10-19-07, 09:04 AM
It wasn't really about the money. Joe is still one of the highest paid managers ever. So was the offer fair money wise? Yes! But it's the way that the Yankees wanted Joe to prove himself by only giving him one year that made the deal unfair. So in reality the deal was kinda unfair.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:04 AM
There needs to be another box for this poll. I think that it's pretty clear that the classier thing to do was make NO offer, tell him they're are going in a different direction, thank him for his service, and move on.
Is there an precedent for pay cuts in the Yankees front office due to non-performance of the team? No.
yankeeman61
10-19-07, 09:05 AM
There needs to be another box for this poll. I think that it's pretty clear that the classier thing to do was make NO offer, tell him they're are going in a different direction, thank him for his service, and move on.
Is there an precedent for pay cuts in the Yankees front office due to non-performance of the team? No.
Agreed. Completely.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:05 AM
Is the next manager going to get a similarly strutcured deal?
If they hold the line and use a "perfomrance based model" for the next manager then, I would think the offer to Torre was More than fair but if they end up giving the next skipper a multi year deal, that doesn't have an option tied to postseason performance, I think that would speak volumes about what their intentions were with Torre
Good point.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:05 AM
I think a better way to ask about the fairness is this:
Do you think the Yankees actually wanted Torre back?
I don't think so. And that's their right. I would have handled it differently, that's all.
So if the Yanks had simply said "no thanks Joe, We're going in a different direction."
That would have been OK?
I don't see the dishonesty in what they offered him. They were basically saying, Joe we aren't happy with the post season results.
We expect more when we pay someone twice what any other manager out there makes and 7 times the average salary.
Maybe I'm just cold blooded, but I think the Yanks offer was more than fair and Joe just stepped all over his own ego.
I wouldn't call Joe greedy, but I imagine what Joe's thought process was, "If I'm going to have to put up with all this sheet in NY, I'm not taking a paycut."
Sitting out a year won't be the worst thing to ever happen to Torre either. He looks tired.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 09:06 AM
I thought the most humorous part was Levine's comments about needing "motivation" for the manager.
Is he kidding me? I mean, seriously. This team was 21-29 and left for dead. Not to mention 2005 and 11-19 because of the disasterous pitching, bailed out by the miracles of Small and Chacon.
27IsNext
10-19-07, 09:07 AM
Yes. The fact of the matter is, he was the head man during the '04 collapse, which would have gotten any manager not named Joe Torre or Bobby Cox fired. To add to that, he also oversaw three first-round exits the next several years. $5 million plus postseason incentives for one year with an option that's triggered if you make it to (not win) the World Series is more than fair for someone Joe's age who's been there too long to begin with and couldn't get his team to relax in the postseason the last few years.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:08 AM
There needs to be another box for this poll. I think that it's pretty clear that the classier thing to do was make NO offer, tell him they're are going in a different direction, thank him for his service, and move on.
Is there an precedent for pay cuts in the Yankees front office due to non-performance of the team? No.
So the CLASSY thing would have been to just fire Torre and give him no choice?
Ooooooooooooo,kay.
I'll try to add that option, but I don't think this system lets me.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 09:09 AM
couldn't get his team to relax in the postseason the last few years.
That's a product of the organization. That's not going away, especially if Torre couldn't cut it. We were spoiled by making 6 trips in 8 years that now they think it's our obligation.
mentalgidget
10-19-07, 09:11 AM
If the next manager gets Pinella type money ($3.5 mil), I'd be surprised.
Obviously, if it is Buck, he MIGHT get $3.5 mil, but who else out there would get $5 mil?
Maybe LaRussa?
So your talking apples and oranges. A two-year $3.5 mil/per to me isn't as good as what Torre was offered.
That's if you look at the fininacial end of tings. It's the length and option tied to postseason performance that make me think it's unfair.
Based on Torre's pricetag being so much higher than anyone elses, i certainly don't think the next manager will get anywhere near the same $$,
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:14 AM
That's if you look at the fininacial end of tings. It's the length and option tied to postseason performance that make me think it's unfair.
Based on Torre's pricetag being so much higher than anyone elses, i certainly don't think the next manager will get anywhere near the same $$,
So the Yanks should WAY overpay a manager they don't really think is that good WITH A MULTI-YEAR CONTRACT when there is probably somebody out there that could do as good a job for 1/2 the money.
Only in NY.
yankees135
10-19-07, 09:15 AM
Yes. The fact of the matter is, he was the head man during the '04 collapse, which would have gotten any manager not named Joe Torre or Bobby Cox fired. To add to that, he also oversaw three first-round exits the next several years. $5 million plus postseason incentives for one year with an option that's triggered if you make it to (not win) the World Series is more than fair for someone Joe's age who's been there too long to begin with and couldn't get his team to relax in the postseason the last few years.
Why does Torre get blamed for the 04 collapse?
Game 4, got the game to Rivera with a lead
Game 5, got the game to Gordon our top setup man with a lead. Yeah, perhaps Gordon shouldn't have pitched in game 3, but at that time, were you really thinking gordon shouldn't pitch or were you thinking that "yeah, lets make sure we win this one, we'll be up 3-0 and if Gordon needs to have a day off tomorrow, it will be fine since we can afford to lose that one"
Game 6. The only *possible* complaint is that we didn't bunt on Schilling. But we don't know for sure this was Torre's call. It is normally a manager's call to bunt for a sacrifice, but rarely do you see a manager tell a player to bunt for a hit. So while I agree he could have encouraged this more, I doubt he said to the team before the game , "hey, you aren't allowed to bunt for a hit"
Game 7.....Kevin Brown was obviously not a good call, but what was the alternative? We have no idea how El Duque was going to do on 2 days rest and battling lots of injuries. Mussina was on 1 day rest......Vazquez was also terrible at the time....Torre *could* have rearranged things at the start of the series to make sure that he had a good pitcher going in 7, but then you'd be seeing Kevin Brown or someone in game 2 instead, and odds are we'd have lost game 2 then instead and maybe not even made it to a game 7.
In Mo I Trust
10-19-07, 09:17 AM
Why does Torre get blamed for the 04 collapse?
Because it happened under his watch. Fair or unfair, that is how managers are judged. Why he gets credit for 1996-2000 is the exact same reason he takes blame for 2004 and the recent first round exits. You can't have it both ways.
CommerceComet
10-19-07, 09:18 AM
Personally, I'm glad to see the Yankees use some post season incentive clauses.Yes, for the new manager. I am not surprised that Joe Torre was insulted by it.
The answer to the initial question is yes and no. Depends on what it is compared to. Compared to the current market for managers, the offer was more than fair. Compared to his previous contract, it represented a 33% pay cut after possibly his best ever regular-season managing job.
27IsNext
10-19-07, 09:20 AM
That's a product of the organization. That's not going away, especially if Torre couldn't cut it. We were spoiled by making 6 trips in 8 years that now they think it's our obligation.
An organization that Torre was a part of. Is the "World Series or bust" attitude the front office and media portray good for the team? No. But the manager's job is to get his team to focus on the internal factors, not external factors, and the results the past few years indicate he's lost his touch to do so.
Jdkush10
10-19-07, 09:21 AM
So the CLASSY thing would have been to just fire Torre and give him no choice?
Ooooooooooooo,kay.
I'll try to add that option, but I don't think this system lets me.
Hard to fire someone when his contract has expired.
A contract for postseason incentives is a gigantic slap in the face to any manager, let alone one who has had the success as Torre. Why doesn't the front office have similar contracts? Aren't they the ones who supply the players for Torre to manage? Shouldn't they be held responsible as well? Or, how about they take away money from the players as well if they don't perform up to expectations?
This offer is a good example of the type of suffocating atmosphere that makes it so difficult to play in New York, and would only prevent players from ever wanting to play for the Yankees. It could also lead Torre to compromise young arms like Joba and Hughes in order to "meet" these incentives.
mentalgidget
10-19-07, 09:22 AM
...a manager they don't really think is that good ...
Do you think they wanted Torre back at all?
If not, and they could get another manager just as good for 1/2 the money, why offer Torre any contract at all?
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:22 AM
So the CLASSY thing would have been to just fire Torre and give him no choice?
He wouldn't have been fired. He just wouldn't have been given a new contract. They say they want to try something different. Thanks. Then produce a new Torre-ography...and have a Torre appreciation day.
They had two choices. 2 years / 15 million or cut ties. (so they really only had one choice)
Saying, "Yeah Joe, we like you but we decided that you're overpaid because you haven't won a World Series in 7 years. So we're going to ask you (and ONLY you) to take a pay cut." is PR B.S.
Honestly, I would have told them to go F themselves. I'm amazed that he comported himself as well as he (apparently) did.
Yes it was a fair offer, afterall he was still going to be the highest paid manager.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:24 AM
Do you think they wanted Torre back at all?
If not, and they could get another manager just as good for 1/2 the money, why offer Torre any contract at all?
PR...
27IsNext
10-19-07, 09:24 AM
Why does Torre get blamed for the 04 collapse?
Game 4, got the game to Rivera with a lead
Game 5, got the game to Gordon our top setup man with a lead. Yeah, perhaps Gordon shouldn't have pitched in game 3, but at that time, were you really thinking gordon shouldn't pitch or were you thinking that "yeah, lets make sure we win this one, we'll be up 3-0 and if Gordon needs to have a day off tomorrow, it will be fine since we can afford to lose that one"
Game 6. The only *possible* complaint is that we didn't bunt on Schilling. But we don't know for sure this was Torre's call. It is normally a manager's call to bunt for a sacrifice, but rarely do you see a manager tell a player to bunt for a hit. So while I agree he could have encouraged this more, I doubt he said to the team before the game , "hey, you aren't allowed to bunt for a hit"
Game 7.....Kevin Brown was obviously not a good call, but what was the alternative? We have no idea how El Duque was going to do on 2 days rest and battling lots of injuries. Mussina was on 1 day rest......Vazquez was also terrible at the time....Torre *could* have rearranged things at the start of the series to make sure that he had a good pitcher going in 7, but then you'd be seeing Kevin Brown or someone in game 2 instead, and odds are we'd have lost game 2 then instead and maybe not even made it to a game 7.
Didn't command his runners to steal on Varitek catching Wakefield, didn't try to bunt on Schilling because it wasn't "classy," playing Sierra against Schilling instead of Lofton, the Posada pinch-running fiasco, Gordon in the blowout game three off the top of my head. He isn't totally to blame, but he shares a good chunk. Francona embarrassed him that year.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 09:27 AM
Was the deal fair in comparision to the market for managers? Yes. Was the deal fair based on The Steinbrenner Doctrine? Yes.
Was the deal fair to Joe Torre, the person with all the subjectiveness of his 12 years unavoidable? No. And that's why he justifiably told them to shove it.
There are plenty of media types who were against Torre - John Heyman, Bill Madden, Michael Kay, among others - who will say it was fair, but I disagree. Let's hear from Joe.
With Torre's 12 year resume, he shouldn't have to keep proving himself. Let Mattingly or Girardi take that contract.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:27 AM
Yes, for the new manager. I am not surprised that Joe Torre was insulted by it.
The answer to the initial question is yes and no. Depends on what it is compared to. Compared to the current market for managers, the offer was more than fair. Compared to his previous contract, it represented a 33% pay cut after possibly his best ever regular-season managing job.
Lets face it, managers are grossly over-rated.
There are more, but some of the more important items are:
A: Can they motivate players to be their best and for the team? At this level, players should motivate themselves. I'll give Joe an B here.
B: Can they use common sense in using a bullpen? Joe sucks here, end of discussion.
C: Can they make personnel decisions and then sell that decision to the players? Can they keep peace in the club house? Joe gets an A here. A few fallouts, but heck this is NY. Otherall, best job in a LONG time.
I mean really, 1/2 the fans on this site could fill out a lineup card that would work.
The Joba rules, if any thing, told EVERYBODY that the Yanks don't think that highly of Joe's managerial skills. That may be sticking in his teeth as well.
All I know is that NOBODY is that much better than everyone else to where they are indispensable.
mentalgidget
10-19-07, 09:29 AM
PR...
preceisely. Which, to me, is patently unfair to Torre
powerpinstripes
10-19-07, 09:30 AM
The missing part is this:
Here is the scenario :
Joe knew he was gone- His tenor at the post game press conference confirms this. His players knew-that is why they all looked so devasted. His coaches knew, that is why we heard about tears. This is why Suzyn was in tears. No one was crying because they lost the ALDS.
But lo and behold, Big Steins "Torre is gone if we don't make it to the next round" statement turns public sympathy towards Torre. The Yankee Tampa brass sees the outpouring of support from the players, media, fans, etc, and say "we can't just dump this guy, we will get crucified", so they wait it out. Try to get some distance, see if the wind shifts in the court of public opinion so we can kick him to the curb and not look like the bad guy. This doesn't happen. The more time that passes the sentiment to keep Torre grows, not diminishes during the 9 day vigil. Brain Trust comes up with a BS 1 year deal, they know he won't take. Brain Trust thinks this will be a PR win/win for them, "Joe turned us down, we wanted him back". No one believe this.
Major backfire for the Yankees, I hope Joe tells it likes it is today. No more need to tow the company line. The company looks foolish today, no need for Joe to make them look better. He has punched out.
Didn't command his runners to steal on Varitek catching Wakefield, didn't try to bunt on Schilling because it wasn't "classy," playing Sierra against Schilling instead of Lofton, the Posada pinch-running fiasco, Gordon in the blowout game one off the top of my head. He isn't totally to blame, but he shares a good chunk. Francona embarrassed him that year.
Only thing I will disagree with is Francona. He only managed well when the decisions were made for him, i.e., his back was against the wall and he HAD to win every game.
Torre managed terribly in that series. Gordon in Game 3 was amazingly ludicrous. If he was going to go to Mo in Game 5 in the 8th, why not just go to him before allowing Gordon to put Mo in the impossible position he was in with the runner on third? They were station to station in a tie game against a knuckleballer and a catcher who couldn't catch that knuckler. I mean....he was a deer in headlights.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:32 AM
He wouldn't have been fired. He just wouldn't have been given a new contract. They say they want to try something different. Thanks. Then produce a new Torre-ography...and have a Torre appreciation day.
They had two choices. 2 years / 15 million or cut ties. (so they really only had one choice)
Saying, "Yeah Joe, we like you but we decided that you're overpaid because you haven't won a World Series in 7 years. So we're going to ask you (and ONLY you) to take a pay cut." is PR B.S.
Honestly, I would have told them to go F themselves. I'm amazed that he comported himself as well as he (apparently) did.
In my book, not offering a new deal is the same as firing Torre. He's been there for 12 years. If the company I worked for said sorry, we're not renewing your contract, I would assumed I was fired.
If Torre felt that way, he cut off his nose to spite his own face.
I will agree that they never should have paid him such a foolish amount in the first place, but at the time they were trying to reward his successes.
That was a low class move as well?
RhodyYanksFan
10-19-07, 09:32 AM
The money was fair, but the length was not. With a one year deal, the entire season would be about when's Joe going to be fired, not how are the Yankees doing. Every loss would start the discussion, since they only had to pay him the rest of that one year, and not for 2-3 years afterwards.
If they really wanted him back they would have given him at least a 2 year deal and I think he would have taken the pay cut.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:36 AM
The missing part is this:
Here is the scenario :
Joe knew he was gone- His tenor at the post game press conference confirms this. His players knew-that is why they all looked so devasted. His coaches knew, that is why we heard about tears. This is why Suzyn was in tears. No one was crying because they lost the ALDS.
But lo and behold, Big Steins "Torre is gone if we don't make it to the next round" statement turns public sympathy towards Torre. The Yankee Tampa brass sees the outpouring of support from the players, media, fans, etc, and say "we can't just dump this guy, we will get crucified", so they wait it out. Try to get some distance, see if the wind shifts in the court of public opinion so we can kick him to the curb and not look like the bad guy. This doesn't happen. The more time that passes the sentiment to keep Torre grows, not diminishes during the 9 day vigil. Brain Trust comes up with a BS 1 year deal, they know he won't take. Brain Trust thinks this will be a PR win/win for them, "Joe turned us down, we wanted him back". No one believe this.
Major backfire for the Yankees, I hope Joe tells it likes it is today. No more need to tow the company line. The company looks foolish today, no need for Joe to make them look better. He has punched out.
This whole thing about waiting to let things blow over is total bull sheet.
10 fricking days?
I mean to you not honestly think they wanted to hold discussions over Torre?
I mean, I've taken months to make up my mind about $10k purchases and they can't think it over and discuss an $8 mil commitment for a week and a 1/2 and they are spun like they are PR players.
TOTAL MEDIA BULL SHEET! Spun by people who wouldn't understand a multi-million dollar decision/negotiation if they fell into one.
I Heart Jeter
10-19-07, 09:39 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how much Mattingly made as a bench coach?
BillBuckner
10-19-07, 09:39 AM
Keeping him the highest paid manager in baseball with a chance to make as much as $8m? More than fair IMO.
b_joseph
10-19-07, 09:39 AM
The deal was a slap in the face and the people that offered it showed that they have a complete lack of understanding in regards to the game.
They should have just acted like grown men and stated that they wanted to move into another direction.
Instead, they look like snakes by making out that they wanted to keep him..when anyone with half a brain knows that they dont.
So, next year, if we get knocked out at the ALDS stage. i look forward to seeing who the new Manager will be for 2009.
And so on..............
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:43 AM
In my book, not offering a new deal is the same as firing Torre. He's been there for 12 years. If the company I worked for said sorry, we're not renewing your contract, I would assumed I was fired.
Your job and Joe's are a little different. Are you a 69 year-old MLB manager? You can't compare apples and dryer lint.
Let's face it, it was time for Torre to hang it up. There is rarely an easy way to move on but Hal and Hank chose the least classy option. Their goal was to make themselves look good. It backfired.
In a perfect world they would have told him they wanted to move on and then asked HIM how he would like it to be presented. 12 postseasons...4 rings. They owed him that much. But it was never going to happen that way. No way do two silver-spoon-sucking, DNA-lottery-winning trust-fund babies (who btw have never had to work for "performance incentives" in their lives) know anything about honor and loyalty in the workplace. Their egos won't allow it.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:44 AM
The deal was a slap in the face and the people that offered it showed that they have a complete lack of understanding in regards to the game.
They should have just acted like grown men and stated that they wanted to move into another direction.
Instead, they look like snakes by making out that they wanted to keep him..when anyone with half a brain knows that they dont.
So, next year, if we get knocked out at the ALDS stage. i look forward to seeing who the new Manager will be for 2009.
And so on..............
Well, there is only one person in baseball that would have been insulted at that offer, the rest would have laughed all the way to the bank.
I don't feel sorry for him at all. Why should they look like snakes when they extended an olive branch to someone they could take or leave.
Why would it have been better to just fire him?
YankeePride1967
10-19-07, 09:48 AM
Postseason incentive clauses for a manager are ridiculous. Yes, the manager has some influence on the outcome of the game, but the results are ultimately decided by the manager. It's not Torre's fault that Jeter, A-Rod, et. al did not play to the same standard as they did during the regular season. Even if he was offered $5M, that is still close to a 25% pay cut - that's a severe decrease in salary (don't get me wrong, still A LOT of money) and Torre's pride obviously came into play there. I know it'd be awfully hard for me if my employer came to me with an offer that was even 10% less than the salary I currently make, let alone 25%.
The Yankees have made the playoffs 12 straight years under Torre. The White Sox went from winning the World Series to nearly finishing in last place two years later, and they extend Guillen - by that criteria, how in the world do you not extend Torre? A one year extension basically tells him that he will be a lame duck manager for the 2008 season. I know his managerial decisions can be somewhat questionable, but he deserved a better shake than this. He was essentially given an offer that the Yankees knew he would turn down.
If the manager only has "SOME" influence on how a team does, then why does Joe get so much credit for winning those world series, but then not be expected to receive criticism or blame when they don't do as well? The one thing I would have done if the Yanks did want him back is offer him a flat 2 year $10 million deal and if he didn't want that then wish him the best.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:49 AM
Your job and Joe's are a little different. Are you a 69 year-old MLB manager? You can't compare apples and dryer lint.
Let's face it, it was time for Torre to hang it up. There is rarely an easy way to move on but Hal and Hank chose the least classy option. Their goal was to make themselves look good. It backfired.
In a perfect world they would have told him they wanted to move on and then asked HIM how he would like it to be presented. 12 postseasons...4 rings. They owed him that much. But it was never going to happen that way. No way do two silver-spoon-sucking, DNA-lottery-winning trust-fund babies (who btw have never had to work for "performance incentives" in their lives) know anything about honor and loyalty in the workplace. Their egos won't allow it.
Well, maybe they wanted him, but just not at such a awful price.
The same as with Andy Pettitte, they wanted him but not at any price.
The same as Derek Jeter when his contract is up. The same with Bernie Williams, the same as most of the stars who have come through.
I don't get the jealousy for the sperm lottery winners either. Somebody has to own the team.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:49 AM
Well, there is only one person in baseball that would have been insulted at that offer, the rest would have laughed all the way to the bank. If I were Joe, I would have too.
I don't feel sorry for him at all. Why should they look like snakes when they extended an olive branch to someone they could take or leave.
Why would it have been better to just fire him? Because it is LESS insulting. If you were 69, had been Yankees skipper for a dozen years and had $20 million or more in the bank you would understand. At a certain point it's no longer about the money.
YankeePride1967
10-19-07, 09:49 AM
One thing though. I think it's time Brian Cashman started feeling some heat for some of the problems the team has.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 09:50 AM
One thing though. I think it's time Brian Cashman started feeling some heat for some of the problems the team has.
I agree. He has to be on the same "hook." 2008 is the final year of his deal.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:52 AM
If I were Joe, I would have too.
Because it is LESS insulting. If you were 69, had been Yankees skipper for a dozen years and had $20 million or more in the bank you would understand. At a certain point it's no longer about the money.
I just don't see where paying someone twice as much as your peers is an insult.
I'm sorry. Espcially for a manager who has failed to live up to expectations (however stupidly high they were set) for more than 1/2 a decade. That's a long time in sports.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:53 AM
Well, maybe they wanted him, but just not at such a awful price.
The same as with Andy Pettitte, they wanted him but not at any price.
The same as Derek Jeter when his contract is up. The same with Bernie Williams, the same as most of the stars who have come through.
I don't get the jealousy for the sperm lottery winners either. Somebody has to own the team.
I have no jealousy for them. I just don't think these two know shiite about handling situations like this. Put a guy that has earned his way up (and faced situations like this through experience) into their shoes and I guarantee it's handled differently.
And you can't compare Joe to a player. A players physical skills DIMINSH with age. Torre's managerial skills (unless you think he has Alzheimers), if anything, should INCREASE.
whalers
10-19-07, 09:54 AM
I just don't see where paying someone twice as much as your peers is an insult.
I'm sorry. Espcially for a manager who has failed to live up to expectations (however stupidly high they were set) for more than 1/2 a decade. That's a long time in sports.
Same here. The Yankees have been overpaying for Torre's services for years. It was a fair offer.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:55 AM
I just don't see where paying someone twice as much as your peers is an insult.
I'm sorry. Espcially for a manager who has failed to live up to expectations (however stupidly high they were set) for more than 1/2 a decade. That's a long time in sports.
As a pay INCREASE it isn't. If he was worth $7.5 million last year, why is he worth less this year? Is he the ONLY one who has failed to live up to expectations? No. But he's the only one being asked to take a paycut.
justtxyank
10-19-07, 09:55 AM
As a pay INCREASE it isn't. If he was worth $7.5 million last year, why is he worth less this year? Is he the ONLY one who has failed to live up to expectations? No. But he's the only one being asked to take a paycut.
I think the answer is that he was NEVER worth $7.5 million. It was a stupid contract from day one.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 09:56 AM
This is funny:
"The objective of the Yankees since the '20s has been to win the championship every year," Hank Steinbrenner, the elder son, said. "Just as the objective of Lombardi with the Packers was, or Belichick and the Patriots. None of us thinks we can win the championship every year, but that's the goal, period."
Torre has too much class to have told the Steinbrenners the truth about such a statement. But the truth is, it's crazy. To say that a manager didn't do his job because he didn't win the World Series is pure lunacy. To admit your goal is impossible and still insist on it is the Don Quixote definition of madness. And to ignore regular-season success in favor of the results of five- and seven-game playoff series is obtuse.
...
But there comes a time when you look around and you say to yourself, "This is nuts." A time when you're listening to your boss's son spout football metaphors and realizing that the people you work for don't care that you just won 94 games, steered the team out of an impossible early-season hole and made the playoffs for the 12th year in a row. And that the reason they don't care is because you lost three games last week to the Cleveland Indians
...
Fair enough. And nobody's suggesting Torre didn't know as much when he went into that meeting yesterday. But at some point, a rational person has to say to himself, "Enough of this insanity." And then that rational person needs to say to his bosses, "Thanks for the memories, and good luck chasing your impossible goals. I've had enough."
http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryankees/2007/10/graziano_torre_looks_like_a_wi.html
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 09:58 AM
I think the answer is that he was NEVER worth $7.5 million. It was a stupid contract from day one.
Well yeah. No kidding. But once you pay it, you end up in situations like this.
Yankees13
10-19-07, 10:10 AM
I thought it was very fair. But the press today has been reaming out the Yankees.
Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.
$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.
I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.
I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).
It wasn't fair. Torre was taking the Yankees to the cleaners.
freebubba
10-19-07, 10:10 AM
I think the offer was fair and I agree with the posters who say that $7.5/yr was ridiculous. When you look at it on paper, it seems extremely reasonable. With that said, I am not sure this was all about the money. When you put incentives in the mix, it puts a unique mental twist into the situation. How long of a leash would Torre of had next year? If you look at it from the perspective that the Yanks didn't want him back and were hoping he would decline the offer, what would have happened had he actually taken it? Would it have been a "whatever reason to get rid of him as early as possible" scenario? Joe didn't need that crap, the players don't need it.
ZIM 2002
10-19-07, 10:15 AM
It was not fair to offer him only one year, which would only lead to tension every time the team lost 2 games in a row. I think the Randy Levine motivation plan is also, to use a printable word, absurd. Torre had to turn it down, and it seems those clueless people like Levine and the H & H boys don't even realize how transparent their plan was. Right now I'm sorry to be a Yankees fan!
Mantle'sMutt
10-19-07, 10:17 AM
I didn't like the whole tenor of the contract. You either believe in him or you do not. You offer him a multi-year deal without silly incentives or say you're going in another direction.
Don't give me this one year stuff with this nonsense of putting a carrott in front him of him for the posesason. The guy has been here for 12 years. That's an insult...like he wasn't trying, or "motivated" as Levine alluded to. Yeah, he wasn't motivated. This freaking overpriced team was 21-29 and he got them back.
And you guys really think it's fair to put the manager in a spot where he could burn out young pitchers for incentives? WTF? Or pay him a $1M for winning 3 ALDS games?
I think we should instill paycuts on Wang, Rodriguez, and Jeter, too. Let them reach their full salary per round of the postseason.
I would have told them to shove it face to face as well. You have to have some dignity in life, and Torre has accomplished enough and has enough resources to do so.
Here's the kicker: I would have voted "fair" if he declined a guranateed a 2 year, $10M deal.
Personally, I think this is the bottomline. Fair or not and by whatever measure you use, the Yanks tendered an offer that they knew would be refused and good for Torre to turn it down. If folks tend to view the whole thing as an "it was good money so therefore it was fair" issue, they miss the much larger and much more salient point. But here, now, they part ways. I will be very intertested to hear what Joe says but, given Torre's integrity, I doubt he'll spill any dirty water - and I'll wager big money that he could do so, big time. That is one thing about Joe, though - look long and hard, you might find better field coaches but you will never find one with more integrity or just plain ole common sense.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 10:19 AM
I think the most interesting part about the supposed "performance incentives" is that the one stated goal (short of which everything else is "failure") of the organization is to WIN the World Series and yet there was no bonus for that.
The offer was a PR move. Nothing more.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 10:21 AM
I think the most interesting part about the supposed "performance incentives" is that the one stated goal (short of which everything else is "failure") of the organization is to WIN the World Series and yet there was no bonus for that.
The offer was a PR move. Nothing more.
His 2009 deal of $8M would kick in if he won the 2008 World Series.
$5M 2008 base
$1M 2008 playoffs
$1M 2008 ALDS
$1M 2008 ALCS
It's a childish incentive package that makes a manager of Torre's 12 year stature prove himself. Like getting them into the postseason in 2005 or 2007 didn't prove he could manage.
That may work for another, but not for this particular man and I agree with him dismissing it.
I thought it was underhanded to divulge the contract details. That played to their agenda in my estimation.
Then Hank says the goal is to win the World Series, but they know they cannot win it every year. LMAO. Classic. Or Levine questions Torre's "motivation." Please. Levine's position doesn't pay what it does if Torre doesn't win 4 titles before he's hired.
mgpenguin
10-19-07, 10:22 AM
Why do people keep bringing up the cash? It's not about the cash! He turned it down because the Yankees offered a noncommittal 1-year deal and at the same time had the audacity to tell a manager who has been to 12 straight playoffs that he needed to be "motivated" by incentives. That's an insult to Torre. No other manager can claim consecutive playoff berths right now, and Torre was on 12. He doesn't need to be motivated to win. The contract was a classless PR move by the Yankee front office.
Edit- and by the looks of this poll so far, it worked, and that's a shame.
Shaun4013
10-19-07, 10:24 AM
Very fair contract considering if he did what he was being paid to do he would have made up to 8 million. I am glad he rejected so now we can hire a new manager, it is time for a change. Joes antics got old.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 10:24 AM
Why do people keep bringing up the cash? It's not about the cash! He turned it down because the Yankees offered a noncommittal 1-year deal and at the same time had the audacity to tell a manager who has been to 12 straight playoffs that he needed to be "motivated" by incentives. That's an insult to Torre. No other manager can claim consecutive playoff berths right now, and Torre was on 12. He doesn't need to be motivated to win. The contract was a classless PR move by the Yankee front office.
Absolutely. Well said.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 10:24 AM
His 2009 deal of $8M would kick in if he won the 2008 World Series.
$5M 2008 base
$1M 2008 playoffs
$1M 2008 ALDS
$1M 2008 ALCS
I thought it was underhanded to divulge the contract details. That played to their agenda in my estimation.
Ah, ok. At least it "makes sense" as far as organizational goals are concerned. Funny thing about that is that OF COURSE he's back in '09 if he wins the '08 series. How the hell could they fire him then?
ANd I agree, leaking the deal is designed to make Torre look bad when he doesn't take all that money.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 10:26 AM
Ah, ok. At least it "makes sense" as far as organizational goals are concerned. Funny thing about that is that OF COURSE he's back in '09 if he wins the '08 series. How the hell could they fire him then?
ANd I agree, leaking the deal is designed to make Torre look bad when he doesn't take all that money.
Under that arraingment, Torre would have 3 straight "lameduck" seasons - 2007, 2008, and 2009 - even if he won the 2008 World Series.
It's obvious they wanted a change. And to his credit, Torre recognized that face to face.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 10:29 AM
Why do people keep bringing up the cash? It's not about the cash! He turned it down because the Yankees offered a noncommittal 1-year deal and at the same time had the audacity to tell a manager who has been to 12 straight playoffs that he needed to be "motivated" by incentives. That's an insult to Torre. No other manager can claim consecutive playoff berths right now, and Torre was on 12. He doesn't need to be motivated to win. The contract was a classless PR move by the Yankee front office.
Edit- and by the looks of this poll so far, it worked, and that's a shame.
Yep. A shame indeed.
I'm done trying to talk sense into people that don't understand the dynamics of contract negotiations with a "rain maker". It's never about money. It's about how one is perceived to be valued. The Yankees told Joe that they no longer value his services but did so in a way that simultanesouly attempted to curry favor with average joe.
In my view, it didn't work. But you're right the poll shows that I am in the minority.
ZIM 2002
10-19-07, 10:33 AM
Agree wholeheartedly - it's a shame that their treatment of Torre could work to fool anyone.
powerpinstripes
10-19-07, 10:34 AM
Why do people keep bringing up the cash? It's not about the cash! He turned it down because the Yankees offered a noncommittal 1-year deal and at the same time had the audacity to tell a manager who has been to 12 straight playoffs that he needed to be "motivated" by incentives. That's an insult to Torre. No other manager can claim consecutive playoff berths right now, and Torre was on 12. He doesn't need to be motivated to win. The contract was a classless PR move by the Yankee front office.
Edit- and by the looks of this poll so far, it worked, and that's a shame.
Agree-Classless PR move by a Classless Front office.
How can any of you say that Torre did not turn this offer down because of the money? Of course it was the money. It came with a base salary cut with the ability to put substantial bonuses in his pocket if he performed.
His pride got in the way, pure and simple. There is no other explanation. NONE, PERIOD.
All of your explanations, all of his explanations all point to pride.
Next year when he is not a Yankee, I would guess that he might live to regret yesterday.
ymike673
10-19-07, 10:37 AM
The deal was a slap in the face and the people that offered it showed that they have a complete lack of understanding in regards to the game.
They should have just acted like grown men and stated that they wanted to move into another direction.
Instead, they look like snakes by making out that they wanted to keep him..when anyone with half a brain knows that they dont.
So, next year, if we get knocked out at the ALDS stage. i look forward to seeing who the new Manager will be for 2009.
And so on..............
Wouldn't our new manager have to fail 3 consecutive years in the ALDS before he is let go? That's what happened to Joe.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 10:39 AM
His pride got in the way, pure and simple. There is no other explanation. NONE, PERIOD.
Why shouldn't it? People who have a body of work that Torre has with the Yankees, and more money that they need can worry about their self respect.
Mantle'sMutt
10-19-07, 10:41 AM
How can any of you say that Torre did not turn this offer down because of the money? Of course it was the money. It came with a base salary cut with the ability to put substantial bonuses in his pocket if he performed.
His pride got in the way, pure and simple. There is no other explanation. NONE, PERIOD.
All of your explanations, all of his explanations all point to pride.
Next year when he is not a Yankee, I would guess that he might live to regret yesterday.
Clues For Sale - $5
(Free if they limit posts like this). ;)
CookieKaikai
10-19-07, 10:42 AM
He wouldn't have been fired. He just wouldn't have been given a new contract. They say they want to try something different. Thanks. Then produce a new Torre-ography...and have a Torre appreciation day.
They had two choices. 2 years / 15 million or cut ties. (so they really only had one choice)
Saying, "Yeah Joe, we like you but we decided that you're overpaid because you haven't won a World Series in 7 years. So we're going to ask you (and ONLY you) to take a pay cut." is PR B.S.
Honestly, I would have told them to go F themselves. I'm amazed that he comported himself as well as he (apparently) did.
That is the equivalent of getting fired in this case since most people believe Torre deserves to manage as long as he wants.
texasyankee
10-19-07, 10:42 AM
This was a slap in the face, I don't think it was about the money, it probably had something to do with the lack of respect given to him by the Yankee brass. I want to hear Joe's side of the story, I'll trust him more than Levine. Joe has nothing to prove to nobody in my eyes.
i agree with you, whole-heartedly......
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 10:44 AM
That is the equivalent of getting fired in this case since most people believe Torre deserves to manage as long as he wants.
If you're thinking (based on my posts) that I am one of those people then reading comprehension is not your long suit. But maybe I am misunderstanding you.
NelsonMuntz
10-19-07, 10:49 AM
The money was more than fair but I can understand why Joe felt insulted by not getting a straight up 2-year offer without all the incentive-laden b.s.
That being said, I'm ready to move on. I just hope Girardi is the next in line, not Mattingly.
yankeesAZ
10-19-07, 11:00 AM
The lack of a 2-year offer is what was unfair and saying the incentives were to "motivate" Torre is an absolute joke.
I dare them to offer "motivational" incentives to our FAs (that we want back).
justtxyank
10-19-07, 11:04 AM
The lack of a 2-year offer is what was unfair and saying the incentives were to "motivate" Torre is an absolute joke.
I dare them to offer "motivational" incentives to our FAs (that we want back).
This post keeps popping up in some form or fashion around here and it reeks of ignorance.
Let's run a hypothetical here.
If A-Rod got offered $25 million by the Angels for 5 years and the Yankees said ok, here's an incentive laden deal. We'll offer you $28 million dollars for the same duration PLUS an incentive based on playoff performance that could get you $50 million a year, he'd jump all over it.
Free agents get all sorts of incentives all the time. Torre would be the highest paid manager in baseball with INCENTIVES to get him to DOUBLE the amount of the next highest paid manager. Any free agent would take that deal.
JeterForPresident
10-19-07, 11:18 AM
I voted that it was not a fair offer. Had he not just have managed the team for 12 basically successful seasons, that deal is a very nice one, but in this particular case and in these particular circumstances you have to think it was an orchestrated PR move to try and win over the public opinion.
Zimmers' Helmet
10-19-07, 11:25 AM
I voted that it was not a fair offer. Had he not just have managed the team for 12 basically successful seasons, that deal is a very nice one, but in this particular case and in these particular circumstances you have to think it was an orchestrated PR move to try and win over the public opinion.
This is not a new technique deployed by Steinbrenner & Co. They used the exact same approach with Buck Showalter after the end of the '95 season : Make 'em an offer they have to refuse.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 11:27 AM
This is not a new technique deployed by Steinbrenner & Co. They used the exact same approach with Buck Showalter after the end of the '95 season : Make 'em an offer they have to refuse.
Right. And Showalter was more akin to Torre than any other manager of the Steinbrenner Era. Showalter had put in 4 years, the previous record for longevity.
Yanks4eva1
10-19-07, 11:34 AM
I depends what you mean by fairness.
Remember, no one put a gun to the Steinbrenner's head to offer Joe Torre $7M to manage this team.
Once you give a person that amount of money, then you cut his salary and add incentives that are really stupid and one that is a virtual crapshoot, then yes it was unfair.
You're adding an incentive of $1M to get the team to the postseason. That's BS. He's done that for 12 freaking years. The other incentives are stupid and no amount of money would be worth all that pressure. No money is worth it. He's not God. If there is a catastrophic injury to a major player in 2008, what's he to do?
The Steinbrenners are once again showing their true colors. They have no people skills and they are on the verge of ruining this team once again. They know how to make money, no doubt, but their business acumen when it comes to emotional intelligence and dealing with people - well, they are failures. Frankly, they are a stupid bunch.
Their "do it now" reactive personality (really, it's George and it seems the apples haven't fallen far from the tree) ruined this team back in 1981 when he got rid of Reggie Jackson. Now we are doing it all over again. Ugh. The end of an era occurred yesterday, ironically on the 30th anniversary of when the other Yankee era began - Reggie hit those 3 HRs in WS game 6, 30 years ago yesterday.
What they did to Torre was a shame. Do they actually think anything good can come out of this disgraceful way of ending Joe's tenure with the Yankees? The players will start to think - if they can do this to Joe, what will happen when my time comes?
Class - that belonged to Joe Torre. Now he is gone, the Steinbrenners are showing who they really are, and frankly who they have always been. We've gone back from class to crass in a single day.
Welcome to my old world, spoiled Yankee fans (those who became fans during the Joe Torre era).
Hate to be Chicken Little today, but I've been a Yankee fan long enough to see the signs.
Dee
Zimmers' Helmet
10-19-07, 11:38 AM
I depends what you mean by fairness.
Remember, no one put a gun to the Steinbrenner's head to offer Joe Torre $7M to manage this team.
Once you give a person that amount of money, then you cut his salary and add incentives that are really stupid and one that is a virtual crapshoot, then yes it was unfair.
You're adding an incentive of $1M to get the team to the postseason. That's BS. He's done that for 12 freaking years. The other incentives are stupid and no amount of money would be worth all that pressure. No money is worth it. He's not God. If there is a catastrophic injury to a major player in 2008, what's he to do?
The Steinbrenners are once again showing their true colors. They have no people skills and they are on the verge of ruining this team once again. They know how to make money, no doubt, but their business acumen when it comes to emotional intelligence and dealing with people - well, they are failures. Frankly, they are a stupid bunch.
Their "do it now" reactive personality (really, it's George and it seems the apples haven't fallen far from the tree) ruined this team back in 1981 when he got rid of Reggie Jackson. Now we are doing it all over again. Ugh. The end of an era occurred yesterday, ironically on the 30th anniversary of when the other Yankee era began - Reggie hit those 3 HRs in WS game 6, 30 years ago yesterday.
What they did to Torre was a shame. Do they actually think anything good can come out of this disgraceful way of ending Joe's tenure with the Yankees? The players will start to think - if they can do this to Joe, what will happen when my time comes?
Class - that belonged to Joe Torre. Now he is gone, the Steinbrenners are showing who they really are, and frankly who they have always been. We've gone back from class to crass in a single day.
Welcome to my old world, spoiled Yankee fans (those who became fans during the Joe Torre era).
Hate to be Chicken Little today, but I've been a Yankee fan long enough to see the signs.
Dee
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Perfectly stated in every aspect.
yankeesAZ
10-19-07, 11:42 AM
This post keeps popping up in some form or fashion around here and it reeks of ignorance.
Let's run a hypothetical here.
If A-Rod got offered $25 million by the Angels for 5 years and the Yankees said ok, here's an incentive laden deal. We'll offer you $28 million dollars for the same duration PLUS an incentive based on playoff performance that could get you $50 million a year, he'd jump all over it.
Free agents get all sorts of incentives all the time. Torre would be the highest paid manager in baseball with INCENTIVES to get him to DOUBLE the amount of the next highest paid manager. Any free agent would take that deal.
Let's offer A-rod a one-year deal with incentives and see how fast he takes it. After all it will show him how much we "want" him like they did with Torre. Do you really believe they wanted Torre to stay with that kind of offer?
Mantle'sMutt
10-19-07, 11:43 AM
I depends what you mean by fairness.
Remember, no one put a gun to the Steinbrenner's head to offer Joe Torre $7M to manage this team.
Once you give a person that amount of money, then you cut his salary and add incentives that are really stupid and one that is a virtual crapshoot, then yes it was unfair.
You're adding an incentive of $1M to get the team to the postseason. That's BS. He's done that for 12 freaking years. The other incentives are stupid and no amount of money would be worth all that pressure. No money is worth it. He's not God. If there is a catastrophic injury to a major player in 2008, what's he to do?
The Steinbrenners are once again showing their true colors. They have no people skills and they are on the verge of ruining this team once again. They know how to make money, no doubt, but their business acumen when it comes to emotional intelligence and dealing with people - well, they are failures. Frankly, they are a stupid bunch.
Their "do it now" reactive personality (really, it's George and it seems the apples haven't fallen far from the tree) ruined this team back in 1981 when he got rid of Reggie Jackson. Now we are doing it all over again. Ugh. The end of an era occurred yesterday, ironically on the 30th anniversary of when the other Yankee era began - Reggie hit those 3 HRs in WS game 6, 30 years ago yesterday.
What they did to Torre was a shame. Do they actually think anything good can come out of this disgraceful way of ending Joe's tenure with the Yankees? The players will start to think - if they can do this to Joe, what will happen when my time comes?
Class - that belonged to Joe Torre. Now he is gone, the Steinbrenners are showing who they really are, and frankly who they have always been. We've gone back from class to crass in a single day.
Welcome to my old world, spoiled Yankee fans (those who became fans during the Joe Torre era).
Hate to be Chicken Little today, but I've been a Yankee fan long enough to see the signs.
Dee
Dee speaks with an articulate and accurate sense of history. I tend to have a bit more optimism that common sense and at least some of the recently gained tacit if not institutionalized power in the GM will help to ward of the Levine types in the long run and after the dust settles. That said, the idea that some of these, shall we say, less than qualified bufoons, may be jockeying for power and/or looking to smake a splash are disconcerting. And, though it does seem that the Yankees have more accountability than in previous purges with a comparitively sound Boss, but you make a very good case with respect to "seeing the signs". I am sure it is a subject about which you'd love to be wrong.- so good for you, too.
nycdoc999
10-19-07, 11:47 AM
It will not be Showalter if the Yankees want to keep Rodriguez...
nycdoc999
10-19-07, 11:49 AM
They need to get Levine away from the microphone. He is here only to oversee the new stadium construction - a deal which he helped broker b/c of his political connections. He is a smarmy, slimy sort - one who really should not be involved in any on-the-field decisions....
TheScooter
10-19-07, 11:50 AM
Is life fair?
Torre walked from the best job in professional sports because his feelings were hurt;)
The Yankees have paid him $21 million the last 3 years and they haven't won a playoff series.Not the World Series.A PLAYOFF SERIES
Shouldn't Torre held accountable for those results?This is not a trip down memory lane
The highest manager in the game can't get his team out of the first round
Eric Wedge made a $1 million in 07
Tito is making $1.65 million this season and I'm supposed to feel sorry for Torre who turned down a guaranteed $5 million.................please
Tito has playoff based bonuses in his contract
Terry Francona Manager
2 years/$4.05M (2007-08)
signed extension 3/06
$0.65M bonus at signing ($1.25M total for 06)
07:$1.65M, 08:$1.75M
bonuses for making playoffs, winning LDS, LCS, World Serieshttp://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html
Not Mr.Torre.His head and ego have gotten too big for his own good
fredgmuggs
10-19-07, 11:53 AM
What is fair? The Yankees thought it was fair and Torre thought it wasn't fair. End of story... it's all a matter of perspective.
nycdoc999
10-19-07, 11:54 AM
Let's see if the Red Sox low-ball Francona and cut his base salary by 30% if he doesn't win the WS this or next year....
I bet they don't. I bet they don't offer him a 1-year guarantee on an extension - which is less than what any new, UNPROVEN manager would get.
If you can't see why that's "wrong", I can't help you....
Zimmers' Helmet
10-19-07, 11:59 AM
Is life fair?
Torre walked from the best job in professional sports because his feelings were hurt;)
The Yankees have paid him $21 million the last 3 years and they haven't won a playoff series.Not the World Series.A PLAYOFF SERIES
Shouldn't Torre held accountable for those results?This is not a trip down memory lane
The highest manager in the game can't get his team out of the first round
Eric Wedge made a $1 million in 07
Tito is making $1.65 million this season and I'm supposed to feel sorry for Torre who turned down a guaranteed $5 million.................please
Tito has playoff based bonuses in his contract
Terry Francona Manager
2 years/$4.05M (2007-08)
signed extension 3/06
$0.65M bonus at signing ($1.25M total for 06)
07:$1.65M, 08:$1.75M
bonuses for making playoffs, winning LDS, LCS, World Series
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html
Not Mr.Torre.His head and ego have gotten too big for his own good
Yeah his ego..., how would you react if after working for your employer for 12 years, and helping make your company more profitable than it's ever been; your boss were to call you into the office tomorrow morning and tell you that if you want to continue your employment there, that you will have to accept a 23% pay cut.
Yeah, Im sure you won't feel insulted or offended....give me a break.
trentonthunder
10-19-07, 11:59 AM
I won't know if this is "fair" or not until I see what the Yankees do with
their money from here on out. Perhaps a new era is unfolding where the yankees
spend less on proven commodities, and rely more on less expensive, unproven ones.
Are the yankees saying here that they are tired of overpaying for failures ?
Or are they saying that they are tired of Joe's "failures" the past 7 years ?
I'm still not sure how to read this. It will be interesting to see what happens
with Arod, Mo, and Po. Then I will see a little more clearly.
TheBamTino24
10-19-07, 12:08 PM
So far the results are a split. Just like the question about firing Torre.
Polarizing indeed.
Giuseppe Franco
10-19-07, 12:15 PM
So far the results are a split. Just like the question about firing Torre.
Polarizing indeed.
Which means they handled it poorly. It shouldn't be hard to garner an 80% approval rating for how one handles a somewhat controversial firing of an executive.
When you can't get support merely for your handling of a situation like this from many of the people that AGREE that he should be gone you know you handled it poorly.
nnysiny
10-19-07, 12:29 PM
it was a fair contract. they could have easily told him to walk and not offered anything. seems Joe, like Bernie, thought he had a lifetime contract, and felt insulted when it turned out that he didnt
ToneinTO
10-19-07, 03:08 PM
It was a fair deal. At some point you have to move on and live in the present instead of dwelling on the past.
On a different note: When Torre replaced Buck Showalter, the NY media (and many Yankee fans) mocked him, calling him "Clueless Joe," and ridiculed the Yankees' front office for getting rid of Showalter, who had taken the Yankees to their first postseason appearance in 14 years.
We all know how Joe's first season turned out. He wasn't "Clueless" anymore after '96.
What I'm getting at is the sky is not falling, the Yankees have a very talented team and you never know, their new manager might be able to get them to perform better in the postseason.
I was a Yankees fan decades before Torre and I will stay a Yankees fan now that Torre is gone. After the repeated playoff disappointments of the last few years, it's not the end of the world that he is leaving.
ARoDfan4life
10-19-07, 03:09 PM
absolutely fair
whalers
10-19-07, 03:09 PM
Yeah his ego..., how would you react if after working for your employer for 12 years, and helping make your company more profitable than it's ever been; your boss were to call you into the office tomorrow morning and tell you that if you want to continue your employment there, that you will have to accept a 23% pay cut.
Yeah, Im sure you won't feel insulted or offended....give me a break.
I'd be happy to still have a job if I had failed so miserabley at my job back in 2004.
ToneinTO
10-19-07, 03:16 PM
I'd be happy to still have a job if I had failed so miserabley at my job back in 2004.
Me too.
Babe Rules
10-19-07, 03:22 PM
The offer was fair, the way it was offered wasn't.
StatenIslandYankee
10-19-07, 04:03 PM
I believe whether or not we loved Joe, wanted Joe back, or wanted to move on from Joe, we can all agree on one thing and that is the approach that was taken was low class. Justify the offer all you want, but it's not about the money, it's about RESPECT and COMMITMENT. You don't want the guy, have the guys to simply fire him. Don't wiggle him around and because of a public outcry give him an incentive laden deal that you KNOW he will reject and on top of that give him a one year deal (lame duck manager situation). The Yankee brass handled this poorly to say the least. They have egg on their face, and it doesn't even seem like they care. Sad ... very sad. But the point is not if we want Joe back or not (feelings on his job and status aside), but on the political side. How they treated him and this situation was downright disrespectful and a real slap in the face.
Metroidman
10-19-07, 04:04 PM
Yipee another topic for people to argue in
TheTinoMobile
10-19-07, 04:05 PM
To start this thread.. or not to start this thread.. You should NOT Have started this thread.. it's completely pointless and your post could have gone in one of the 1000 other Joe Torre / manager discussion threads.
JavyVazquezIsSick
10-19-07, 04:05 PM
Question for me to poop on?
In Mo I Trust
10-19-07, 04:05 PM
To thread or not to thread?
Hitman23
10-19-07, 04:07 PM
tee hee...... this is getting hilarious.
StatenIslandYankee
10-19-07, 04:17 PM
Sorry for adding another thread, I'm just frustrated with how they handled this.
a2ruYankee
10-19-07, 04:22 PM
Sorry for adding another thread, I'm just frustrated with how they handled this.
They handled it poorly because the media is pumping that story.
He was offered 5 million. 3 more to win.
Not acceptable and walk away. He did.
Its done.
Its over.
"Every new beginning comes from some other beginnings end"
wileedog
10-19-07, 04:32 PM
Let's see if the Red Sox low-ball Francona and cut his base salary by 30% if he doesn't win the WS this or next year....
I bet they don't. I bet they don't offer him a 1-year guarantee on an extension - which is less than what any new, UNPROVEN manager would get.
If you can't see why that's "wrong", I can't help you....
Of course they won't, he won the division and beat the Angels at the very least.
Which is more than Torre has accomplished in 3 years.
And Francona is making 6x less then Torre anyway, why would they want to cut his salary?
WE NEED MORE JOE TORRE THREADS! They're like tribbles.
LIYanks
10-19-07, 04:53 PM
Why should Joe feel insulted by the offer? He has not taken this team past the first round since 2004 and he is getting paid a lot of money to get us to the promised land.
Let Joe go. All good things must come to an end. And I doubt he will ever land another job that pays him as much as his last contract with the Yankees.
StatenIslandYankee
10-19-07, 05:18 PM
SHOCKED @ more 'fair' than 'unfair'
longtimeyankeefan
10-19-07, 05:56 PM
I think we all know that whether it be a manager or player, we are paid based upon what we did in the past and not for the current year. If Joe was underpaid those years, he more than made up for that from 02-06. His last contract was based upon his remarkable record through 2003. Since then the Yanks blew that 3-0 lead in 04 followed by three straight first round defeats with two of the three being sound defeats. Is it fair the manager seems to get most of the blame? Of course not but that's how things work. His 05-07 record, if he wanted to be paid based on performance when he got his last extension, warrants a slight decrease to where he would still be guaranteed to be the highest paid manager in the game. But as I believe you said in another thread, I think Joe felt the Yanks didn't want him back. We'll find out more later.
Exactly.
Most people who recognize my moniker would label me a Torre apologist, but I feel that this contract offer was very fair.
I equate Torre's current situation to the situation the Yankees were in with Bernie Williams when his contract expired. His productivity with the Yankees had clearly declined and the Yankees offered him an incentive laden contract with a huge decrease in base pay - much more so than what Torre was asked to take.
I don't blame Joe for not taking this contract - I can certainly see his point of view. He feels that his performance for the last 12 years speaks for itself - and it does. But his performance over the last seven years (particularly the last three years) also speaks volumes.
Eventually, an organization has to move in a new direction when the production of a major contributor begins to decline. It was time for the Yankees to move on from Joe Torre and now they have.
gregzzy22
10-19-07, 06:10 PM
No and if you believe other wise, Randy Levine and everybody who made that offer did their job.
apalradio
10-19-07, 06:10 PM
While it seems fair, considering the number, the pay cut aspect as well as the one year deal, combined with the "incentive clause" made it totally unrealistic. Has this team ever succeeded in their hardass approach to personnel decisions? The offer was disingenuous. Worse yet, the organization is now being run by three Steinbrenners, not just one!!!
cyhughes22
10-19-07, 08:28 PM
It was a degrading slap in the face to a man who deserved much better. Randy Levine and his croneys have a lot to answer for in this life and the next. Treating Joe Torre this way is despicable in and of itself but when you couple that with what looks like manipulating a momentarily lucid George Steinbrenner to try to get what you want there's a lot more than a baseball move at the core. They've brought a ton of shame and tarnish onto this organization with this cold, calculated and infinitely stupid move. They need to remember that we all reap what we sow.
I'm not a huge Torre supporter but I think it wasn't so much the offer but it was how they made him wait. I'm sorry to see Joe go. I don't think we will ever see a Yankee manager like him again. He was so good with dealing with multiple personalities within the clubhouse, the pressure from Steinbrenner and also dealing with the media. Joe was one of a kind.
Murcer1
10-19-07, 08:34 PM
I didn't like the whole tenor of the contract. You either believe in him or you do not. You offer him a multi-year deal without silly incentives or say you're going in another direction.
Don't give me this one year stuff with this nonsense of putting a carrott in front him of him for the posesason. The guy has been here for 12 years. That's an insult...like he wasn't trying, or "motivated" as Levine alluded to. Yeah, he wasn't motivated. This freaking overpriced team was 21-29 and he got them back.
And you guys really think it's fair to put the manager in a spot where he could burn out young pitchers for incentives? WTF? Or pay him a $1M for winning 3 ALDS games?
I think we should instill paycuts on Wang, Rodriguez, and Jeter, too. Let them reach their full salary per round of the postseason.
I would have told them to shove it face to face as well. You have to have some dignity in life, and Torre has accomplished enough and has enough resources to do so.
Here's the kicker: I would have voted "fair" if he declined a guranateed a 2 year, $10M deal.
I couldn't have said it better myself. You are 100% on target.
MunsonNY15
10-19-07, 08:42 PM
I didn't like the whole tenor of the contract. You either believe in him or you do not. You offer him a multi-year deal without silly incentives or say you're going in another direction.
Don't give me this one year stuff with this nonsense of putting a carrott in front him of him for the posesason. The guy has been here for 12 years. That's an insult...like he wasn't trying, or "motivated" as Levine alluded to. Yeah, he wasn't motivated. This freaking overpriced team was 21-29 and he got them back.
And you guys really think it's fair to put the manager in a spot where he could burn out young pitchers for incentives? WTF? Or pay him a $1M for winning 3 ALDS games?
I think we should instill paycuts on Wang, Rodriguez, and Jeter, too. Let them reach their full salary per round of the postseason.
I would have told them to shove it face to face as well. You have to have some dignity in life, and Torre has accomplished enough and has enough resources to do so.
Here's the kicker: I would have voted "fair" if he declined a guranateed a 2 year, $10M deal.
There was no need to read further into this thread. TBT summed it up perfectly, IMO.
Heidi
Fair? Yes
Honest? No
Here's my whole take, for what it's worth:
If the Yankee organization would've handled this differently, it could have accomplished many many good things, not only affecting 2008, but for several years thereafter. My guess is that ownership had no problem with Torre managing the club in 2008, but didn't want him managing in 2009, for a number of reasons. Why not be upfront with Joe, and tell him that? Tell him his role in 2008 will be to help ring out the old and bring in the new for 2009. Help Mattingly get ready to take over the ship in 2009, help the veterans and the younger players get used to the idea that things have to change, that the Yankees will reward winning and not settle for anything short of it. I think Joe could have accepted this, because he has always asked for the truth, and he wants to feel needed. He's a realist, and knows his job won't last forever. He'll be 69 in 2009 - what a perfect way to ride off into the sunset! He'd have nothing to lose and everything to gain. His legacy will have a storybook ending and he will be remembered for being a mentor as well as the winningest manager in Yankee Stadium history. Oh and by the way, Joe, we're going to re-sign Posada and Rivera and A-Rod and give you another chance at getting that fifth ring.
The club finally has a crop of young pitching prospects that can really help make the club a powerhouse when they open up the new stadium. But they have to hold onto them, and help them grow and mature in 2008, in a town that will easily grow impatient as these pitchers go through inevitable growing pains. Say what you will about Torre, but he is a player's manager, and even the younger players like Chamberlain, Cano, Cabrera, and Wang are singing the praises of the leadership and tolerance that Torre and his staff show. Who better to teach these players how to stay even-keeled and focused, even in a city that can be the most distracting?
The organization must think about marketing and public relations, both now and covering the next few years. They publicly state that the team goal each and every year is to win a championship, knowing that of course it's impossible to do that -- but it's committment to winning certainly helps sell tickets, sparks interest, and creates revenue. I'm sure that sometime in 2008, they will begin selling those club suites they so badly wanted more of. My guess is they'll be selling them for more than one season at a time and will charge exhorbitant prices for them.
They have to put Don Mattingly in a position where he can be successful in 2009, because they can't afford for him to NOT be successful. If he has another year to mentally prepare for his new role, it can only help him -- I don't think they feel he is ready to take over in 2008.
All they had to do was be honest and offer him a guaranteed $7M for 2008 only. I think Joe Torre would have appreciated it and accepted it.
Sillycon
10-19-07, 11:24 PM
It was a degrading slap in the face to a man who deserved much better. Randy Levine and his croneys have a lot to answer for in this life and the next. Treating Joe Torre this way is despicable in and of itself but when you couple that with what looks like manipulating a momentarily lucid George Steinbrenner to try to get what you want there's a lot more than a baseball move at the core. They've brought a ton of shame and tarnish onto this organization with this cold, calculated and infinitely stupid move. They need to remember that we all reap what we sow.
geez, with your comments, you'd think Levine butchered Torre's family. Perhaps not the best way to go about this in regards to the contract but your reaction is WAY over the top.
Carlton Fisk
10-20-07, 08:18 AM
In my opinion, the offer was insulting, they offered him a contract that they absolutely knew he wouldn't accept, just so the organization could say "We made him an offer, he turned us down, Joe's the bad guy here".
Even as a Red Sox fan, I've always had the greatest respect for Joe Torre. Most Sox fans do, he got a standing ovation he got when he came back to Fenway after his battle with cancer.
After 12 years and all that he has accomplished he deserved far better treatment from the Yankee organization than he got. Was it time for him to go at this point? Probably, it's been a long run and with all the young players coming up it is a good time for a change and most likely Torre knew that too.
The sad thing is all of this could have been avoided if the Yankee Brass called him to Tampa a few days after the ALDS loss and said, "Joe, we're going in a different direction. How would you like to go out?" This way there would be fewer hard feelings on both sides and no reason to save face.
For all the Torre bashers, be careful what you wish for, because this could go either way. I don't think any other manager could have brought the Yankees out of the gutter that they were in after May.
But the Yankees have been pretty consistant with their message, that the manadate every year is to get to the World Series. They have never wavered from that and Joe knew, very well, the terms of his employment - realistic or not. So according to the terms he acknowledged, he did not meet exprectations for 7 years in a row. That certainly warrants both a pay cut, a short term deal, and incentives.
If the Yankees hadn't ever explicitly made this the context of his 7 million a year, than Joe would have a right to be upset. As it stands, the offer was more than fair and Joe Torre should have taken the deal, gotten to the WS and proven he is the winner he insists deserver to be paid more than 5 million a year.
I'm a Torre hater and I know that it wasn't fair. But then again, neither is life.
wileedog
10-20-07, 08:32 AM
Yeah his ego..., how would you react if after working for your employer for 12 years, and helping make your company more profitable than it's ever been; your boss were to call you into the office tomorrow morning and tell you that if you want to continue your employment there, that you will have to accept a 23% pay cut.
Yeah, Im sure you won't feel insulted or offended....give me a break.
If I had failed at my employers stated mission statemetent for 7 straight years, I would be pretty happy he was still offering me more than anyone in the else in the world to do my job.
You're right though, its about ego. Torre - and obviously many other people here, doesn't believe he has failed the past 7 years or the past 4 in particular. Its obvious he thinks what he did 96-00 warrants lifetime employment, and utmost faith from management.
The Yankees obviously feel differently, and many others of us don't blame them. From the Yankees standpoint, given their shaky opinion of his recent job performance, the offer was more than fair.
I still don't believe it was an 'offer he won't accept' plan. Kay on ESPN said he talked to a lot of Yankee Brass, and they wanted him back for a year, probably to give Mattingly another year to transition. But I don't think there was any way there were going to guarantee a 2nd year other than a WS, and that's what Torre wanted more than the money.
Carlton Fisk
10-20-07, 08:34 AM
World Series visits are a great goal, every successful team has to have them.
But you either have faith in your manager or you don't, tying the contract to the incentives is not fair to the players or the manager because now that is going to be the conversation hanging over the team all season long.
IMO, the Yankees could have offered him a 9MM guaranteed contract for one year and he would have turned it down. Conversely, had the Yankees offered him a 3 year/15MM he may have taken it. Yes it is a paycut, but it shows that the organization has faith in him and allows him to do his job.
I agree that it was time for a change. But it should have been handled better.
The Q Bomb
10-20-07, 08:40 AM
World Series visits are a great goal, every successful team has to have them.
But you either have faith in your manager or you don't, tying the contract to the incentives is not fair to the players or the manager because now that is going to be the conversation hanging over the team all season long.
IMO, the Yankees could have offered him a 9MM guaranteed contract for one year and he would have turned it down. Conversely, had the Yankees offered him a 3 year/15MM he may have taken it. Yes it is a paycut, but it shows that the organization has faith in him and allows him to do his job.
I agree that it was time for a change. But it should have been handled better. Very well stated. I believe you captured the essence of Torre's objection.
Very well stated. I believe you captured the essence of Torre's objection.
Typical Sox fan!:D
wileedog
10-20-07, 09:14 AM
But you either have faith in your manager or you don't, tying the contract to the incentives is not fair to the players or the manager because now that is going to be the conversation hanging over the team all season long.
I couldn't diasgree more.
I might agree a little if he was given a $500,000 base salary, and still needed all of those incentives to make his requred unGodly sum of $8M.
But his BASE salary was still $1.5M higher than the next manager. He didn't need the incentives to still be the highest paid in the league.
Everyone's salary should be tied to their performance, I have no idea why this would be such a distraction. Do you know why they call it a 'contract year' and players seem to always have career best years in them?
yankeesAZ
10-20-07, 10:15 AM
I couldn't diasgree more.
I might agree a little if he was given a $500,000 base salary, and still needed all of those incentives to make his requred unGodly sum of $8M.
But his BASE salary was still $1.5M higher than the next manager. He didn't need the incentives to still be the highest paid in the league.
Everyone's salary should be tied to their performance, I have no idea why this would be such a distraction. Do you know why they call it a 'contract year' and players seem to always have career best years in them?
So based on Joe Torre's recent post season performance he was offered less. So I guess we'll be lowering A-Rod's salary too as his postseason performances here are far worse than Torre's.
Sorry, but this whole "we really wanted Joe to stay" from Yankee management while decreasing his salary and offering one year is a slap in face to Yankee fans.
If they had just fired him immediately, while I still may have not liked that, I could respect that. But selling us this pile of crap is a joke.
wileedog
10-20-07, 10:24 AM
So based on Joe Torre's recent post season performance he was offered less. So I guess we'll be lowering A-Rod's salary too as his postseason performances here are far worse than Torre's.
Except we would have failed to make the postseason completely this year if it weren't for A-Rod. Plus his contract is not up, is it?
Not to mention, even if it was there would be other teams bidding for his services.
Do you think anyone is going to offer Joe 3 years/$24M now?
Sorry, but this whole "we really wanted Joe to stay" from Yankee management while decreasing his salary and offering one year is a slap in face to Yankee fans.
If they had just fired him immediately, while I still may have not liked that, I could respect that. But selling us this pile of crap is a joke.
Again, according to Kay a lot of the Yankee Brass wanted and expected Joe to take the deal, but there was simply no way to give a raise to a guy who had the team he did and has failed so consistently the last 4 years. That sends a message to everyone, including the players, that subpar performance is acceptable and we will continue to pay you anyway.
Nor did they want to commit to 2 years for the same reason, plus they want Mattingly in place for the new stadium is my guess.
You may call it insulting, but that is because you are emotionally invested in Torre. I call it someone finally getting a hold of their checkbook and emotions.
PJMPirate
10-20-07, 10:32 AM
Wow... 128 to 128
yankeesAZ
10-20-07, 10:37 AM
Except we would have failed to make the postseason completely this year if it weren't for A-Rod. Plus his contract is not up, is it?
Not to mention, even if it was there would be other teams bidding for his services.
Do you think anyone is going to offer Joe 3 years/$24M now?
IMO, I think Joe would have taken a 3-year deal (maybe even 2) at $5M despite what he said about taking a pay cut.
As for A-Rod, his contract is not up yet, but if the Yanks try to lowball him he will be gone.
4degrees
10-20-07, 10:37 AM
Ultimately, it came down to what the Yankee management wanted. They were not comfortable with giving Joe a raise or higher salary. During the last contract negotiations, Joe had leverage and he wasn't shy using it to get a big raise. Salaries correct themselves.
They were not comfortable having him stay more than a year unless he was successful. Contracts are binding; length of term matters.
So these were the terms the team was comfortable with. Can't blame them for that.
Even Joe on the plane said he wasn't sure if he would take it or not. He probably thought that this was point 1 on a negotiation.
That's where you could fault the Yankees. Taking the attitude of take or leave it is not the way you run a relationship, business or otherwise.
And where is the loyalty in the other direction? Joe was doing Angel games (and the Angels stunk) when we pulled him off the scrap heap.
A break up of a 12 year relationship is hard - there is no way it can be amicable and people will always assess some degree of the blame on someone.
The bigger issue is who is steering the ship? Is Cash in charge? Are we back to 2005 and Wright is on the way? That should be a bigger cocnern for Yankee fans.
PJMPirate
10-20-07, 10:38 AM
You're right though, its about ego. Torre - and obviously many other people here, doesn't believe he has failed the past 7 years or the past 4 in particular. Its obvious he thinks what he and his players did 96-00 warrants lifetime employment, and utmost faith from management.
Fixed it for you.
23DonnieBaseball23
10-20-07, 11:12 AM
Hard to see Yanks brass worried about financial restraint when they paid Carl Pavano $10 million for 11 innings this season.
If we're moving to a performance based model, why does Randy Levine still have a job? We ain't won $hit since he's been on board.
IMO, I think Joe would have taken a 3-year deal (maybe even 2) at $5M despite what he said about taking a pay cut.
. So he'd be managing at 70/71. When would it have been appropriate to ask St. Joe to leave his the office-72?75?When? It keeps coming back to Torre wanting this job for life, and it was never going to end well.
The offer was essentially $16 million for 2 years,s till way out of line with the market.
wileedog
10-20-07, 04:22 PM
IMO, I think Joe would have taken a 3-year deal (maybe even 2) at $5M despite what he said about taking a pay cut.
If he decides to take another job, my guess is he will be offered 3/$12.
As for A-Rod, his contract is not up yet, but if the Yanks try to lowball him he will be gone.
Because again, there will be someone willing to pay him more.
It makes no sense to bid against ourselves and pay Torre $8M or more per year just because we were dumb enough to do it once before. If he looks at it as a pay cut, so be it. He has won nothing since the last contract extension that warrants a raise or the same completely out of whack salary.
Torre obsviosly doesn't see it that way. So be it. I would rather the Yankees be realistic and pay value then give in to the demands of someone sitting on his record of 7 years ago.
Bloodshot
10-20-07, 04:40 PM
My take -- the cash / incentives were fine .. but only offering one year was a problem.
I actually think he may have accepted a 2-year deal with the same terms. Only one year meant he had to go through this same stuff again next year.
bomber999
10-20-07, 04:42 PM
I know that there have been many people who have declared the offer fair, based on league comparisons of manager's salaries and what they have deemed several "unsuccessful" seasons in a row because we didn't get to the World Series. It's not outrageous to think along these lines. However, I think that one cannot accurately appraise this situation thinking about it this way. Joe Torre's longevity, his unprecedented success, and managing the Yankees made this situation unique. No other manager in baseball can claim 4 WS, 6 pennants, and 12/12 in making the playoffs, managing in the pressure cooker of NY, no less. No other manager could claim making the playoffs two years in a row. Taking the exact number of dollars out of the equation, if you had that track record, would you accept having to take a pay cut and being insulted by the insertion of "incentives", as if you weren't really motivated to win? Would you accept the offer, knowing that you would be the ultimate lame duck, vulnerable to being fired at the first 3 game losing streak? Would you put yourself, your family, and your players through that?
I didn't think so.
Fair would have been for the Yankees to offer Torre a 2-year deal at the same money. Barring this, fair would have been to tell Torre, up front, that they were moving in a new direction, rather than engaging in this insulting, transparent, sleazy effort to make it look like they wanted Torre back and that he was the one who walked out. They would have taken an initial PR hit due to Joe's popularity, but that would have been up-front and respectful, and the team would be moving forward in a positive way and with both Joe's and their dignity intact. Instead, they have ensured themselves of the derision of all of baseball and much of their own fan base, and made Joe even more beloved than ever.
How is it possible in New York that Isiah Thomas, who has done nothing but continue to run the Knicks into the ground, has one playoff appearance (and no wins) to show for his tenure as GM/coach despite having the highest payroll in the NBA by far, is despised by many in the league, by his own comments has revealed himself to be a mysogynist and a racist (a real racist, by the way, Mr. Sheffield and Lofton), and just cost the Knicks north of $16 million by virtue of being found liable for sexual harassment of a female employee (with more cases waiting in the wings potentially) has his job (and seemingly endless job security) and Torre, a true winner and a truly great human being, is unemployed? What a world. As angry as I am at the Yankees FO at this time, I am immensely grateful that that moron Jimmy Dolan doesn't have his grimy mitts on the Bombers.
YankeeSass
10-20-07, 05:38 PM
My 2 cents:
For what it's worth I believe that Joe should have been let go after the 2006
ALDS. Maybe even afer 2004.
But, that said,
this contract offer was the definition of disingenuous.
The F.O. wanted him gone and, under the assumption that they could avoid player/fan/media backlash, they made him an offer they knew he wouldn't accept. The entire process was a farce. They (Levine et al) would have been better served to have simply said something to the effect of 'moving in a different direction. Thanks for 12 great years but it is time for a change.'
IMO, that would have been the decent course of action... That might have been difficult for some of us to accept (not me) but at least it would have been honest and a clean break .... but to now try to spin Joe's refusal into a "we are stunned" statement reeks of trying to put a band aid on this whole debacle now turned into a public relations disaster. About as credible as that scene in "Casablanca' where Claude Raines says something to the effect of "I'm shocked. Shocked! to find gambling is going on in here!"
Look, nothing lasts forever and his tenure had to come to an end sometime and I hope that Joe Giardi is hired .... but I think it's quite possible that the team will be decimated and we wont make the PS next year. (I really hope I'm wrong about this) Whoever is picked to replace Torre will have some big shoes to fill and just watch that person get fired when we finish in 3rd place behind the Blue Jays!
I shudder to contemplate the ramifications of this move. Not so much that Joe is gone but rather the way in which his departure was contrived.
And those of you who really think that the contract offer to Joe was genuinely well done by the F.O., that his refusal paints him as small-minded and petulant, well, nothing anyone can say will ever convince you otherwise.
But it's done. Bridges have been unnecessarily burned and it's time for The Yankees and us to move on and hope like hell that the lunatics are not running the asylum.
Retire21
10-20-07, 07:12 PM
I hadn't talked to my Dad (big Yankee fan) until this morning about the press conference, but he thought Joe Torre came off as a jerk. This was a bit of a different opinion on the event as we've been inundated with media columns/stories about how Joe was mistreated. Dad was wondering who the hell Joe thought he was saying he was "insulted" by a 1-year, $5 million offer with incentives he likely would have achieved anyway, when he's 4-13 over the past 4 seasons in the playoffs. "What the hell did he expect them to offer?" Dad wondered aloud, "And what's with the comment that he's not going back to Yankee Stadium? Did the Yankees not do enough for him? He made a boatload of money and is going to go to the HOF as a Yankee and suddenly he's calling press conferences throwing them under the bus?" Good 'ol Dad. And I can see his point.
I was just thinking about how Joe Torre's fate could/should have ended a lot sooner.
When George Steinbrenner came to Spring Training in 2004, Joe had one year left on his contract after arguably mismanaging the 2003 World Series in Game 4 & 5. After being at Joe's throat throughout the 2003 season, George was now in a good mood. The Yankees had just completed a blockbuster trade for Alex Rodriguez, George had personally signed Gary Sheffield (and was proud of it), and he was surprisingly ready to offer Joe a contract extension after an extremely acrimonious 2003 season where they argued more than ever before. Joe got the 3 years.
If Joe Torre's Yankees blow a 3-0 lead to the Red Sox without Joe having the security of a contract, he's probably gone at the end of 2004. Perhaps he manages differently in that series without the security of a contract. Instead, he had a $19.5 million contract for 3 seasons which made him pretty much untouchable from a firing standpoint due to the money owed. In hindsight, George should have characteristically allowed Joe to play out his existing contract before offering the extension in the spring of 2004. It should have happened sooner.
Yankees1962
10-20-07, 07:17 PM
I hadn't talked to my Dad (big Yankee fan) until this morning about the press conference, but he thought Joe Torre came off as a jerk. This was a bit of a different opinion on the event as we've been inundated with media columns/stories about how Joe was mistreated. Dad was wondering who the hell Joe thought he was saying he was "insulted" by a 1-year, $5 million offer with incentives he likely would have achieved anyway, when he's 4-13 over the past 4 seasons in the playoffs. "What the hell did he expect them to offer?" Dad wondered aloud, "And what's with the comment that he's not going back to Yankee Stadium? Did the Yankees not do enough for him? He made a boatload of money and is going to go to the HOF as a Yankee and suddenly he's calling press conferences throwing them under the bus?" Good 'ol Dad. And I can see his point.
I was just thinking about how Joe Torre's fate could/should have ended a lot sooner.
When George Steinbrenner came to Spring Training in 2004, Joe had one year left on his contract after arguably mismanaging the 2003 World Series in Game 4 & 5. After being at Joe's throat throughout the 2003 season, George was now in a good mood. The Yankees had just completed a blockbuster trade for Alex Rodriguez, George had personally signed Gary Sheffield (and was proud of it), and he was surprisingly ready to offer Joe a contract extension after an extremely acrimonious 2003 season where they argued more than ever before. Joe got the 3 years.
If Joe Torre's Yankees blow a 3-0 lead to the Red Sox without Joe having the security of a contract, he's probably gone at the end of 2004. Perhaps he manages differently in that series without the security of a contract. Instead, he had a $19.5 million contract for 3 seasons which made him pretty much untouchable from a firing standpoint due to the money owed. In hindsight, George should have characteristically allowed Joe to play out his existing contract before offering the extension in the spring of 2004. It should have happened sooner.
Torre is getting lambasted by some because his contract is just another example of the high level of money being paid in sports today. Some of the average Joe's are upset by that and anytime a sports personality turns down a contract offer that is considered a lot of money by most people, it will cause some of us to react negatively to them turning it down.
Don't worry, Joe Torre isn't around any longer to take Steinbrenner's money after failing to win the WS again. That onus will be placed on the next manager(s).
HerbieLee20
10-20-07, 08:42 PM
I voted fair. Think for a moment of the unimaginable backlash had the Yankees, prompt and swift, gone through with what many had been predicting anyway and just said: "Thanks for everything, we love you, but goodbye Joe. Time for a change".
Imagine if they'd not even pretended to make an effort in Torre's case, no matter how ill-contrived it appeared. It was a no-win situation, and the Yanks chose another script, to avoid just dropping the axe.
Still think that Torre 2000 would have been going Pinella on the umps in Cleveland with the insects. I really couldn't believe he didn't do so. No matter how classy and great Joe is, things appeared more complacent nontheless, and it was time for a change. Perhaps Brass detected players in a "comfort zone", as opposed to battle zone?
Read The Post today declaring: Bitter Joe Bashes Yanks. The media is inflaming already passionate emotions, and loyalty, regarding Joe.
It may be comparing apples to oranges, but do wonder how fans felt with Yogi? Joe received much better treatment, no matter how the media wishes to portray the Torre saga. They couldn't just drop the axe with Joe. A totally no-win situation with 24-7 news, and intricate details of everything imaginable exposed.
The Yankees had been blessed with a great manager for an even greater franchise. But maybe things really did become complacent? Teams change managers. Can't fire the players.
Don't lose faith over this, though. Those guys will come back and play their hearts out next season because they're Yankees, not because of who their manager is.
cyhughes22
10-20-07, 11:07 PM
I voted fair. Think for a moment of the unimaginable backlash had the Yankees, prompt and swift, gone through with what many had been predicting anyway and just said: "Thanks for everything, we love you, but goodbye Joe. Time for a change".
Imagine if they'd not even pretended to make an effort in Torre's case, no matter how ill-contrived it appeared. It was a no-win situation, and the Yanks chose another script, to avoid just dropping the axe.
Still think that Torre 2000 would have been going Pinella on the umps in Cleveland with the insects. I really couldn't believe he didn't do so. No matter how classy and great Joe is, things appeared more complacent nontheless, and it was time for a change. Perhaps Brass detected players in a "comfort zone", as opposed to battle zone?
Read The Post today declaring: Bitter Joe Bashes Yanks. The media is inflaming already passionate emotions, and loyalty, regarding Joe.
It may be comparing apples to oranges, but do wonder how fans felt with Yogi? Joe received much better treatment, no matter how the media wishes to portray the Torre saga. They couldn't just drop the axe with Joe. A totally no-win situation with 24-7 news, and intricate details of everything imaginable exposed.
The Yankees had been blessed with a great manager for an even greater franchise. But maybe things really did become complacent? Teams change managers. Can't fire the players.
Don't lose faith over this, though. Those guys will come back and play their hearts out next season because they're Yankees, not because of who their manager is.
You can respect an organization that's up front and honest with it's employees and will notify them of a change of direction to their face. I don't think you can respect an organization that drags a process out in order to try and trick the media and fanbase into believing the situation to be something it isn't. They insulted Joe Torre's dignity and the intelligence of Yankee fans everywhere, including myself and you. A liar is a liar and it seems like this organization is full of them these days.
I thought it was very fair. But the press today has been reaming out the Yankees.
Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.
$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.
I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.
I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).
for joe to say the offer was an insult was ridiculous.....he hasn't gotten out of the first round of the playoffs for 3 years, he batted arod 8th, he benched sheffield, and he did a horrible job managing the bullpen. He did deserve a paycut when you take in what he accomplished recently and compared it to what he accomplished before his last contract. His productivity declined so his pay appropriately declined.....he was still more then taken care of with 5M and the possibility of 8M. Best job in baseball, I'd do it for free
TheBamTino24
10-21-07, 08:20 PM
I posted in another thread, but I'll finish off my thoughts on this here:
The Yankees' brass did not want Joe Torre back. Now, that's their right, I'm not debating that. And after 12 very successful seasons, both parties have profited beyond their wildest dreams. But the Yankees wanted to be in a position of saving face publically. To have some segment of the public on their side, and they achieved that.
So they crafted the most perfect one-sided contract they possibly could. And given Randy Levine's history in labor negotiations and politics, they staged this very well. It's a contract that could be taught in labor relations classes, lol.
1. It was a win/win for the Yankees. They get Torre on "lameduck" status for 2008 even if he accepted. And it costs them $2.5M less, while they can still cling to the "highest paid manager" point without debate.
2. Then, even if Torre accepted and won the World Series, the incentives only bring the total to $8M. So they pay just $500K more from 2007 AND win the World Series.
3. Torre wins the 2008 World Series and his 2009 option kicks in. Management knows he should get another year after an '08 ring, and it works well to open the new stadium. But here's the kicker: 2009 is another "lameduck" year. He's on the ropes again.
Perfect contract from the organization. Allows them to say irrefutably that he rejected them. And even if he stayed and actually won, it is at the most minimal expense. In fact, it's only a loss financially if he won the 2008 World Series, which would make them all look good anyway. Plus, even if he did that, 2009 would be a lameduck year again.
No wonder they wanted no part of a negotiation.
PittsburghYankeeFan
10-21-07, 10:47 PM
I posted in another thread, but I'll finish off my thoughts on this here:
The Yankees' brass did not want Joe Torre back. Now, that's their right, I'm not debating that. And after 12 very successful seasons, both parties have profited beyond their wildest dreams. But the Yankees wanted to be in a position of saving face publically. To have some segment of the public on their side, and they achieved that.
So they crafted the most perfect one-sided contract they possibly could. And given Randy Levine's history in labor negotiations and politics, they staged this very well. It's a contract that could be taught in labor relations classes, lol.
1. It was a win/win for the Yankees. They get Torre on "lameduck" status for 2008 even if he accepted. And it costs them $2.5M less, while they can still cling to the "highest paid manager" point without debate.
2. Then, even if Torre accepted and won the World Series, the incentives only bring the total to $8M. So they pay just $500K more from 2007 AND win the World Series.
3. Torre wins the 2008 World Series and his 2009 option kicks in. Management knows he should get another year after an '08 ring, and it works well to open the new stadium. But here's the kicker: 2009 is another "lameduck" year. He's on the ropes again.
Perfect contract from the organization. Allows them to say irrefutably that he rejected them. And even if he stayed and actually won, it is at the most minimal expense. In fact, it's only a loss financially if he won the 2008 World Series, which would make them all look good anyway. Plus, even if he did that, 2009 would be a lameduck year again.
No wonder they wanted no part of a negotiation.
Which is their right! It was a great deal for the Yankees. The only error was not trying to leave a little wiggle room for negotiation, which would have been a better negotiating strategy. If Joe felt that he was getting something, he may have taken something close to it.
This tells me that Levine had a bit more say in this than Cashman did.
Zimmers' Helmet
10-21-07, 11:21 PM
Which is their right! It was a great deal for the Yankees. The only error was not trying to leave a little wiggle room for negotiation, which would have been a better negotiating strategy. If Joe felt that he was getting something, he may have taken something close to it.
This tells me that Levine had a bit more say in this than Cashman did.
It had everything to do with Levine and the Steinbrenners. If Brian Cashman was still in charge of baseball operations 100% ; which obviously he's not anymore, Joe Torre would still be managing the Yankees. There is no way that Brian Cashman would not have given Joe Torre a 2 year contract. Even at a reduced salary with incentives, I think Torre would have stayed. They gave him a take it or leave it offer, non-negotiable offer. Does that sound like good faith to you? Does that supposed to make you feel wanted? Cashman, under his own free will, would have never treated Joe Torre so shabbily. If Brian Cashman is supposed to be in complete control as a GM, should he not supposed to be allowed to choose his manager?
Jersey Yankee
10-21-07, 11:41 PM
Like with players, the Yanks overpaid for Joe Torre. If he'd kept winning the way he did in the first 5 seasons, then he'd be worth even more than that. As is, for the past 7 years, I can't see him being even worth that much.
Had Torre been paid $5m in 2007, which is about what he's worth for a humongous payroll team, then he should have no complaint.
Bernie went from $12+ mil to $1.5 mil from 2005 to '06; Schill got a performance bonus in 2004 if they'd won the WS. Incentives and pay cuts aren't unprecedented.
Torre must've felt that so long as he'd wanted the job, he could keep getting ridiculous pay even if losing. Try doing that if you're a corporate president. So long as you have someone to answer to, you'll have to meet criteria. Welcome to the real world, Joe. You can't just collect humongous paychecks like you're a player and lose the first round 3 times straight when working for George Steinbrenner. Class or no class, them's the facts.
Zimmers' Helmet
10-21-07, 11:51 PM
Like with players, the Yanks overpaid for Joe Torre. If he'd kept winning the way he did in the first 5 seasons, then he'd be worth even more than that. As is, for the past 7 years, I can't see him being even worth that much.
Had Torre been paid $5m in 2007, which is about what he's worth for a humongous payroll team, then he should have no complaint.
Bernie went from $12+ mil to $1.5 mil from 2005 to '06; Schill got a performance bonus in 2004 if they'd won the WS. Incentives and pay cuts aren't unprecedented.
Torre must've felt that so long as he'd wanted the job, he could keep getting ridiculous pay even if losing. Try doing that if you're a corporate president. So long as you have someone to answer to, you'll have to meet criteria. Welcome to the real world, Joe. You can't just collect humongous paychecks like you're a player and lose the first round 3 times straight when working for George Steinbrenner. Class or no class, them's the facts.
After watching the press conference, I came away thinking that Joe Torre would have accepted a reduced guaranteed salary with incentives had he been given a 2 year contract. Not giving him a guaranteed second year unless he won the World Series is like stating he is on probation like a newbie at an entry level job. You would only subject yourself to that if you need the money. Joe Torre doesn't.
IheartNY!
10-21-07, 11:51 PM
I dont think the issue for Torre had anything to do with the $5mil, I think it had to do with the fact that they structured it with million dollar incentives, as if to insinuate that the failings of recent years were his fault due to lack of motivation. This is insulting, and I am glad to see that he stood up to that crap. Joe Tore is a true american hero. And no, I am not kidding.
Jersey Yankee
10-22-07, 12:15 AM
After watching the press conference, I came away thinking that Joe Torre would have accepted a reduced guaranteed salary with incentives had he been given a 2 year contract. Not giving him a guaranteed second year unless he won the World Series is like stating he is on probation like a newbie at an entry level job. You would only subject yourself to that if you need the money. Joe Torre doesn't.
I listened to most of it on radio. It seemed like Torre was acting like he's some victim amongst unsmiling demons. That part I wasn't too crazy about, since contract negotiations, especially player arbitrations when the team tells the player (even Mo) how poorly they'd performed.
I think that Torre had a point re the 1-year deal. I also think that if you have someone for 12 years, then a 2-year deal could've been OK. In fact, I think they should've had a 2-year deal instead of 3 years the last time.
Still, I can't say that the pay cut was unexpected. He'd acted in the press conference like he'd been offered a pay cut like anyone else would've been offered this, but when you're making more than twice as much as anyone else in your position, what do you expect?
I think that if it were $5-6m/yr for 2 years, and that there would've been a pay incentive if going to the WS, he couldn't have any reason to refuse.
I'm still on the fence for the deal. They'd given him less, which I don't mind, but 1 year for him seems a bit low, even if incentivized to have the 2nd year automatic if reaching the WS. If reaching the ALDS (or even reaching the ALCS, I might have been slightly more favorable to, but winning the AL pennant seems lofty if you're only offering 1 year.
If I were structuring the deal with the intention to bring back Torre and with incentives included, I'd have:
2008: $5.5m
2009, $6m
Reach the ALCS in either year, you get $7.5m in 2010. Win the WS (or alternatively, win the ALCS) in either year, you get another contract guaranteed for 2-3 years.
I wouldn't call it totally insulting, and I think that Torre got too emotional in acting the part of the victim. They didn't yell at him or cuss him in the media. They merely thought that he hadn't met expectations. Is he the first manager to not be brought back for this? No, and others have been fired in mid-season (Mazzilli) because their team didn't meet their expectations. Steinbrenner's expectations are simply higher, which Torre is well familiar with.
Jersey Yankee
10-22-07, 12:17 AM
I dont think the issue for Torre had anything to do with the $5mil, I think it had to do with the fact that they structured it with million dollar incentives, as if to insinuate that the failings of recent years were his fault due to lack of motivation. This is insulting, and I am glad to see that he stood up to that crap. Joe Tore is a true american hero. And no, I am not kidding.
I don't think that you're kidding. I accept what you're saying as your true opinion.
I don't think that the team's failure is entirely his fault. I think that the FO was simply tired of their team losing the ALDS 3 years in a row. In essence, I believe they were telling him that they'd wanted him to bring the team to higher ground. If not, you get paid less.
I don't think that's saying that the team failed because of him. I think that they'd simply wanted more from the team that he'd led, and he was being given more money to do so.
LuckyLopez
10-22-07, 01:07 AM
I think that's it. I think the message in the contract was "We've plateaued with you at the helm. We're willing to put $5-8M on the table to give you another season but we expect forward momentum if that's the case. If we don't cover new ground next season we'd like to move in a new direction."
Divorcing the emotion from the equation it seems to me like a completely fair idea. Its the 12 years that muddies the waters and presents the idea that Torre deserved more than a 1 year deal where he was managing for money and his career. And him not feeling that was worth buying into seems completely reasonable. But its two sides of a relationship going in two different directions. It happens and was likely to happen with this relationship sooner or later.
People have said Torre was a victim of his own success and that might be true. The things he accomplished may have put unreasonable standards on him. But it works both ways and I think its reasonable to believe that if it weren't for that amazing success he might not have made it past '03, '04, or any of following postseasons. And if he hadn't had all that success the loyalty shown by the fanbase and media probably would not have been as strong and the contract not as unreasonable. And he likely never would have been making $7.5M to begin with. So it doesn't really seem like a worthy road to go down. Its the situation. His amazing successes earned him his pay and organizational standing and loyalty. His subsequent "failures" eroded that standing and loyalty and the pain wasn't going to be repeated without a repeat of the successes.
And no, I don't think the failures are his alone nor necessarily his largely. But it works both ways and whatever level of influence he had on the failures he likely had on the successes. So however much you weigh a manager's impact or Torre's it seems reasonable that its equal. That is unless you do think he had an exceptional role in one and not the other. Which it does appear some do on either side of the fence. And that's just going to leave this a clear case for those people.
Torre sounds like he would have taken a 2 year deal because that security and confidence is what he wanted. The Yankees simply clearly didn't have that confidence so I think bemoaning their unwillingness to offer him 2 years is unfair. I don't think the offer was a bluff. Because I do think there's reasons other than inexperience and desperation to prove oneself that a manager like Torre might take that deal (a desire to fight to keep the job, a desire to prove himself to his doubters, a simple desire to remain a Yankee). Many proud athletes have taken 1 year deals or small deals to keep going even once others appear to have lost faith in them. But the Yankees don't appear to want to have committed to 2 years so offering that to make sure he signed wasn't the goal. It was (IMO) a simple matter of the Yanks being comfortable with 1 year and no more and Torre being comfortable with 2 years and no less. They could not meet and long standing relationships often have messy breakups.
Zimmers' Helmet
10-22-07, 01:17 AM
I think that's it. I think the message in the contract was "We've plateaued with you at the helm. We're willing to put $5-8M on the table to give you another season but we expect forward momentum if that's the case. If we don't cover new ground next season we'd like to move in a new direction."
Divorcing the emotion from the equation it seems to me like a completely fair idea. Its the 12 years that muddies the waters and presents the idea that Torre deserved more than a 1 year deal where he was managing for money and his career. And him not feeling that was worth buying into seems completely reasonable. But its two sides of a relationship going in two different directions. It happens and was likely to happen with this relationship sooner or later.
People have said Torre was a victim of his own success and that might be true. The things he accomplished may have put unreasonable standards on him. But it works both ways and I think its reasonable to believe that if it weren't for that amazing success he might not have made it past '03, '04, or any of following postseasons. And if he hadn't had all that success the loyalty shown by the fanbase and media probably would not have been as strong and the contract not as unreasonable. And he likely never would have been making $7.5M to begin with. So it doesn't really seem like a worthy road to go down. Its the situation. His amazing successes earned him his pay and organizational standing and loyalty. His subsequent "failures" eroded that standing and loyalty and the pain wasn't going to be repeated without a repeat of the successes.
And no, I don't think the failures are his alone nor necessarily his largely. But it works both ways and whatever level of influence he had on the failures he likely had on the successes. So however much you weigh a manager's impact or Torre's it seems reasonable that its equal. That is unless you do think he had an exceptional role in one and not the other. Which it does appear some do on either side of the fence. And that's just going to leave this a clear case for those people.
Torre sounds like he would have taken a 2 year deal because that security and confidence is what he wanted. The Yankees simply clearly didn't have that confidence so I think bemoaning their unwillingness to offer him 2 years is unfair. I don't think the offer was a bluff. Because I do think there's reasons other than inexperience and desperation to prove oneself that a manager like Torre might take that deal (a desire to fight to keep the job, a desire to prove himself to his doubters, a simple desire to remain a Yankee). Many proud athletes have taken 1 year deals or small deals to keep going even once others appear to have lost faith in them. But the Yankees don't appear to want to have committed to 2 years so offering that to make sure he signed wasn't the goal. It was (IMO) a simple matter of the Yanks being comfortable with 1 year and no more and Torre being comfortable with 2 years and no less. They could not meet and long standing relationships often have messy breakups.
If the Yankees weren't willing to give Torre 2 years guaranteed but do so with whomever they hire to replace him; then that tells you all you need to know about just how sincere their offer was and about how badly they wanted to bring him back.
bottom line is that George wanted Joe gone for years now.
I believe that George wanted Torre fired immediately after the elimination game against Cleveland.
however, George's sons and Levine concocted this symbolic deal in reaction to the media and fans.
If this was the old boss. Torre would have been gone 2 weeks ago. end of story.
Torre should not have been made to wait for an outcome. He deserves more than a lousy 1 deal with incentives. I believe that this was a ploy to force him out. Firing him after the game would have been a bit more respectable.
LuckyLopez
10-22-07, 01:58 AM
If the Yankees weren't willing to give Torre 2 years guaranteed but do so with whomever they hire to replace him; then that tells you all you need to know about just how sincere their offer was and about how badly they wanted to bring him back.
See, I don't think the question is necessarily whether they wanted him back of not. I think its very reasonable to believe that they were willing to give him a last go of it with a legitimate chance for more if he can get past this hump that has developed. And while I can understand where some people would be bothered by it I don't think its unreasonable to be willing to give 2 years to a new direction while only willing to commit 1 more to the current one. And this will probably rub people wrong but a 1 year contract IS a lame duck one. And that was clearly the message being given to Joe. I'm not sure that's the message you give to a new/young manager.
Such a move would show a clearly different standard for the new guy then for Torre. And that will obviously bother many of those who are upset with the events of the past week. But I don't think it would expose insincerity of the Torre offer. Just make clear that the Yankees would expect more of Torre in what would more or less be a "last chance" contract vs what they'd expect from the new guy in what may well be a "first chance" contract.
Sillycon
10-22-07, 02:26 AM
If the Yankees weren't willing to give Torre 2 years guaranteed but do so with whomever they hire to replace him; then that tells you all you need to know about just how sincere their offer was and about how badly they wanted to bring him back.
The contract was probably more along the lines of bridging it and grooming Mattingly. Obviously, they're not looking at Torre for longterm.
wileedog
10-22-07, 09:25 AM
Which is their right! It was a great deal for the Yankees. The only error was not trying to leave a little wiggle room for negotiation, which would have been a better negotiating strategy. If Joe felt that he was getting something, he may have taken something close to it.
The problem is what Joe wanted more than money was additional guaranteed years.
Which is the last thing the Yanks wanted to give him. Another year of the same is just more wasted time, much less 2 or 3.
Honestly I think the offer could have been for $10M for 1 year with the same conditions on next year and Joe would have been 'insulted'. I still don't think he believes there was anything wrong with his or his team's performances the past 4 years.
JavyVazquezIsSick
10-22-07, 09:26 AM
I still don't think he believes there was anything wrong with his or his team's performances the past 4 years.
The fact that the only thing he could think of in the last 4 years was the bug incident is clear indication of that.
wileedog
10-22-07, 09:27 AM
If the Yankees weren't willing to give Torre 2 years guaranteed but do so with whomever they hire to replace him; then that tells you all you need to know about just how sincere their offer was and about how badly they wanted to bring him back.
Of course they are going to give a new manager more than 1 year, are you kidding? The new manager isn't coming in already having blown 4 straight postseasons.
Plus the new manager is not going to be making $7M/yr, so firing him at any time isn't nearly as expensive.
TheBamTino24
10-22-07, 09:39 AM
I still don't think he believes there was anything wrong with his or his team's performances the past 4 years.
I have to disagree with that. I'm sure he has been disappointed, but probably doesn't think another manager could have done more. Torre's mentality is simply different from the Yankees' ownership: one believes postseason is unpredictable and random, the other believes it is not.
And while he's ultimately responsible, it would've been tough to expect more based on the individual performances we've been getting in these past 3 postseasons. And in 2004, he has to be held accountable. As does Rivera.
I think sometimes we have a habit here of inflating our own team because of the payroll and star power.
YankeePride1967
10-22-07, 11:02 AM
Here's one thing. One of the main issues Joe said was that a one year contract would have his players trying too hard for him because they would be playing too hard for his job. Well wasn't he basically operating under the same conditions this year? If this is such a concern to him then why didn't he pass on the $7.5 million he would earn this year and resign after last year if that isn't something he feels comfortable with?
TheBamTino24
10-22-07, 11:07 AM
Here's one thing. One of the main issues Joe said was that a one year contract would have his players trying too hard for him because they would be playing too hard for his job. Well wasn't he basically operating under the same conditions this year? If this is such a concern to him then why didn't he pass on the $7.5 million he would earn this year and resign after last year if that isn't something he feels comfortable with?
The key word was "again." His job status was a daily distraction from April until about mid-June. Everyday players were asked about it and I cannot count the times Jeter said it had to stop.
Here's the difference: Last year was the final year of his contract, which he agreed to. It was a natural "lameduck." This year would be by design and Torre did not want to choose that status again. And 2009 would be a lameduck as well, under the contract offer. That's choosing 2 more years of it. Ridiculous. No coach would. That's why the NY Giants extended Tom Coughlin 1 year after last season.
Like I've said, NYY's contract propsal to Torre was one-sided. The only thing Torre got to say was he was still the highest paid manager, despite taking a $2.5M paycut. And, clearly it wasn't about the money, because he chose a bigger loss this year by not taking it (min $5M).
They're being disingenuous to say they wanted him back. But that's all part of the spin.
Dynasties R Forever
10-22-07, 11:16 AM
Here's one thing. One of the main issues Joe said was that a one year contract would have his players trying too hard for him because they would be playing too hard for his job. Well wasn't he basically operating under the same conditions this year? If this is such a concern to him then why didn't he pass on the $7.5 million he would earn this year and resign after last year if that isn't something he feels comfortable with?
Yeah, no kidding.
Joe being disingenuous here.
wileedog
10-22-07, 11:20 AM
Here's one thing. One of the main issues Joe said was that a one year contract would have his players trying too hard for him because they would be playing too hard for his job.
Shouldn't they be doing that anyway?
Mantle'sMutt
10-22-07, 11:22 AM
Of course they are going to give a new manager more than 1 year, are you kidding? The new manager isn't coming in already having blown 4 straight postseasons.
Yeah that Torre bastard never could pitch and his hitting started to go south after about 1976.
Changes
10-22-07, 11:23 AM
It was more than fair to any other manager on Earth. For Torre, a 3 year deal at 15mil with incentives would've been fine.
wileedog
10-22-07, 11:24 AM
Yeah that Torre bastard never could pitch and his hitting started to go south after about 1976.
But apparently he was a great hitter and pitcher 96-00 so we should have forked over another $16M to him the next 2 years for mediocrity.
Is that your argument?
Haha - the ole "it wasn't Torre's fault the players couldn't play" argument always leads with its chin.
Ya just can not give a guy credit for the good times without placing blame for the bad.
I'm personally pretty torn on Torre as a manager. I think he was a terrible game time decision maker, but feel he was the perfect calming influence for a team like the Yanks and a city like NY.
In the end, I just don't think you have to spend 5 or 7 million dollars to get a guy to keep a locker room calm. That offer, while technically a pay cut, was still 3+ million more than anyone else in baseball is getting. I think the terms are what he had issue with... well, Joe, you are 67 years old and haven't had playoff success lately... what did you expect? A 5 year guaranteed?
TheBamTino24
10-22-07, 11:32 AM
I'm interested to see how not having Torre plays out. For all the people - from players to the media - who sware by his management skills of this team, in this city, and with the pressures of this organization, I'm very curious.
We're certainly going to find out by next October whether we missed him or not.
FelipePArantes
10-22-07, 11:36 AM
Off course it was fair.
In fact he was going to still being overpaid. He didn't do his job well, he deserved a lower contract. I think it was his proud that made him pass this deal, the events before the ALDS game 3 stuff like that.
Bye.
ZIM 2002
10-22-07, 11:36 AM
Torre always protected his players - I seriously doubt he thought it was "enough" to get to the postseason, but he could hardly be expected to say "no, I wasn't satisfied but what do you expect, since my hitters disappeared when it counted".
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