View Full Version : Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre
Rocketbooster
10-09-07, 06:28 PM
Peter Gammons- Yanks' issues go beyond Torre
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter)
They are the Yankees, so two hours after their season turned to winter, there was a cellphone conversation about what could be packaged with Chien-Ming Wang to get Johan Santana, not Carlos Silva or any of the other mongrel free agents. They inquired about Santana, because they are the Yankees.
But they're also different from the Bronx Zoo or 1998 Yankees. There is no clear chain of command, as the man who bought the franchise for half of what he now pays Jason Giambi has struggled with his health and his sons are feeling their way into power. They have been eliminated in the first round three straight years, haven't played a World Series game since being dominated by Josh Beckett in 2003, haven't won the World Series since the Clinton Administration.
After 12 years of respect, competence and dignity, Joe Torre is almost certainly out as manager, with no replacement set in stone. People in the organization know Don Mattingly is the only successor the players will buy, but it may be that the fragmented powers that be don't care what the players think because the players think Torre should be rehired.
They'd love a proven entity, but Tony La Russa has little interest in dealing with the chain of hurricanes that surround this franchise, and Jim Leyland, Bobby Cox and Mike Scioscia aren't available. La Russa is very careful and sensitive to the media, and going from a couple of beat writers to a media culture which plays sides and in some cases believe they, the writers, are the story, is not something he wants after all he's done in his professional life. There may be drums beating for Lou Piniella, and the Cubs might not mind allowing him to go to New York.
They will chew on Mattingly and Joe Girardi (someone will mention Trey Hillman and certainly Buck Showalter), but the centrifugal force that Torre provided will be gone, and the floor opens to one question after another. The Boss's successor may be Hank Steinbrenner, but he has to sort through the voices that want his ear. Or it could be Hal Steinbrenner. Will Brian Cashman remain in power, or can Randy Levine grab the power chair? If Cashman isn't in full command, it could take months to figure out where the buck stops.
And Alex Rodriguez. Those who believe the sun sets and rises on baseball's best player can rant about his .267 Division Series and point to the fact that he went from Game 3 of the 2004 ALCS until the eighth inning Monday without a postseason RBI, but if he opts out of his contract and Scott Boras gets him $30 something million a year elsewhere (plus a third of all Venezuelan oil reserves), they must fill in a canyon, as well as replace his entertainment value to YES and those $2,500-a-game seats in the new stadium.
Players warn that Torre's departure will make it more expensive and difficult to keep free agents Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera. The former makes no pretense about his loyalty to Torre and, since the team waited on his extension, he is willing to listen to other teams. Can you say Mets? Don't even waste your time thinking about it. But the larger question is whether Posada or Rivera leave, will it open the door to the 1980s, when players didn't want to go to New York to play for the Yankees.
Rivera will have no qualms about taking the Yankees to the wall, or leaving. Bobby Abreu would leave without the ties of Posada and Rivera.
The good news is that they have developed a new, fresh core. Robinson Cano is close to the plate discipline that could make him a .340/35 home run, three-hole hitter. Melky Cabrera is a wonderful, energetic force. Joba Chamberlain is real, Phil Hughes showed in Game 3 the ridiculous stuff he showed in the minors ("He was relaxed because this was the first time he didn't think he had to be great," says Mattingly) and Ian Kennedy can pitch.
And if Jeter hadn't hobbled around like Walter Brennan with his bad knee and Wang had been good instead of terrible, the Yankees might have won the series. But in the Yankees' world, sadly, anything short of winning the World Series is failure, with no respect for the fact that seven different teams have won the World Series in this century and that revenue-sharing has made getting to the World Series really difficult. Yankeeland may not be alone, but in the self-absorbed promotion of Red Sox Nation, this season in which Boston led the majors in wins while developing more than a half-dozen players in their first full major league seasons, the success or failure of the 2007 season may be determined on whether or not the Sawx win the World Series. If C.C. Sabathia and Fausto Carmona win three of their four starts, which is a distinct possibility, New Englanders may be convinced by a misanthropic shock jock world that the season was a waste and that someone has to pay for that failure by losing his job.
The saddest part of the Indians-Yankees series is that the story became Torre and Steinbrenner and A-Rod, not a Cleveland team that won more games than the Yankees during the season. With a payroll half the size of the Red Sox's, the Indians matched Boston in wins. They moved two kids named Asdrubal Cabrera and Franklin Gutierrez into key positions in mid-August (after which they had the best record in the league), and they took Carmona out of Buffalo and watched him develop into one of the three or four best pitchers in the league. It's a shame that the swarm of bugs became the story of Game 2, the reason Chamberlain lost. When Carmona got to the Indians' bench after pitching during The Plague, they scraped more than 50 bugs off his neck and face, but Carmona didn't get distracted.
The Indians' lineup is deep, they play defense, they have two great starters, two very good relievers (Rafael Perez and Betancourt), and they grind out at-bats and make it hard for starting pitchers to get into the seventh inning. They deserved to beat the Yankees, and it's possible that they will deserve to beat the Red Sox. They aren't a tabloid team in an era when celebrity news is so legitimized that Paris Hilton gets 100 hits on Google for every one for Nancy Pelosi.
It's one thing to dream about Johan Santana or Roy Oswalt. They are the Yankees, and in two years they'll be getting $810,000 for four season tickets behind home plate. It's another thing to drive the firing of Joe Torre because not winning the World Series is a failure, and because the story sells.'
Thoughts? I really do like Peter, but I definitely think he's overstating the chaos that he thinks surrounds the franchise. Until I see evidence indicating otherwise, Brian is still in charge of this team....(except for the Joe thing, unfortunately, but what can you do? That's George). Now all of a sudden players aren't going to want to play for the Yankees anymore?
I don't see Posada or Rivera leaving......although Mo for sure is a man of principal. If he truly feels the Yankees have wronged him or Joe, who knows? Still, I can't imagine him wanting to finish his career in anything other than pinstripes.
I like his points about the new core of youngsters........and of course, his implication that firing Joe is a lousy move. Everyone in baseball loves Joe
Yankeesfan811
10-09-07, 06:30 PM
Peter Gammons- Yanks' issues go beyond Torre
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Thoughts? I really do like Peter, but I definitely think he's overstating the chaos that he thinks surrounds the franchise. Until I see evidence indicating otherwise, Brian is still in charge of this team....(except for the Joe thing, unfortunately, but what can you do? That's George). Now all of a sudden players aren't going to want to play for the Yankees anymore?
I don't see Posada or Rivera leaving......although Mo for sure is a man of principal. If he truly feels the Yankees have wronged him or Joe, who knows? Still, I can't imagine him wanting to finish his career in anything other than pinstripes.
I like his points about the new core of youngsters........and of course, his implication that firing Joe is a lousy move. Everyone in baseball loves Joe
yeah i usually like peter gammons analysis on things, but I always disagree with him when it comes to soemthing about the yankees.
JeffWeaverFan
10-09-07, 06:33 PM
One issue is Bobby Abreu staying has nothing to do with the other guys. The Yankees have a team option for Abreu.
WebsterMulligan
10-09-07, 06:34 PM
Makes perfect sense to me.
Retire21
10-09-07, 06:34 PM
Gammons' mentioning of the Yankees calling about a Wang and others for Santana deal is the second time I've heard of this today. I think Verducci mentioned it, too, but only if Alex leaves. Interesting......... if Pettitte decides to retire, we would have no LH starters. Hmmmm.......
THEBOSS84
10-09-07, 06:43 PM
Great article by Peter.
Yankees13
10-09-07, 06:46 PM
Interesting article, doesn't quite paint a pretty picture.
P.S. This line made me laugh very hard for some reason: not Carlos Silva or any of the other mongrel free agents
Pyewacket
10-09-07, 06:48 PM
I find it hard to believe the Yankees front office is telling people they want to trade Wang.
Also, that line about Beckett dominating them in 2003 conveniently ignores that fact that Moose beat him in Game 3.
THEBOSS84
10-09-07, 06:49 PM
It's interesting that whenever the Yankees lose a series vs. a team, the story is always that the Yankees lost and not that the other team won. Peter was right about game 2 - Carmona was the second story of that night (second to the bugs) when he pitched one of the greatest games I had ever seen vs. the Yanks in the postseason.
TheBamTino24
10-09-07, 07:09 PM
Gammons once said that after Steinbrenner fired Showalter that the team would be set back 10 years.
This is the typical "fallout" article that always appears after a yankee playoff loss. Theres always speculation after a playoff loss that the sky is going to fall over yankee stadium, everyones getting fired, the team is gonna be dismantled. Give it a few days and everything will be sorted out.
drjeckyl
10-09-07, 07:18 PM
Gammons once said that after Steinbrenner fired Showalter that the team would be set back 10 years.
did he mention which 10 years?
Seriously, I can't believe he's in the HOF. On what basis?
dave8274
10-09-07, 07:19 PM
Gammons knows nothing. I don't know how he got himself on the $20 bill.
frostdude1
10-09-07, 07:20 PM
like im gonna listen to a 96 year old red sox fan tell me about the state of the Yankees
NYYDragoon
10-09-07, 07:21 PM
This is the typical "fallout" article that always appears after a yankee playoff loss. Theres always speculation after a playoff loss that the sky is going to fall over yankee stadium, everyones getting fired, the team is gonna be dismantled. Give it a few days and everything will be sorted out.Pretty much. And Gammons, being an avid New Englandah, is no stranger to the hyperbole.
snoogans
10-09-07, 07:24 PM
Overall, I think he makes some really good points. As much as many folks that frequent NYYF dislike Joe Torre, he is definitely one of a kind in his ability to deal with the NY media, The Boss and get his players to do their best. Does he make some bad decisions? Sure, but they all will. There will be NO manager that makes the right decision in the fans' eyes, because we all have different opinions. Just look at the Joe Must Stay/Joe Must Go posts.
With The Boss throwing around ultimatums and the like, it just shows that it's that much tougher to play in NY. The pressure to play and deliver for the NYY is hard enough, but having to worry about how The Boss will react and what he may or may not say about you in the paper doesn't help.
I'm no fan of Peter Gammons by a long shot, but his article does a really good job of covering the various points about the series (press perception vs. played reality) and the state of the Yankees in the future (who IS going to pay for those shiny new luxury boxes if the Yanks revert to a .500/3rd place team?)
I like Joe. He brought the trophy back to NY when no one really expected he would. Now that he's expected to do it and hasn't delivered, it's all his fault. It's an unreasonable position to be in, and yet he still wants to do it. I say let him.
Dr. Gonzo
10-09-07, 07:25 PM
as long as cash can figure out a way to not let joe manage the pen, I am fine with joe.
Pancake
10-09-07, 07:25 PM
Not a Charlie McCarthey Gammons fan and I truly believe that 75% of what he writes is a "plant" on someone else's behalf. He's also an unadulterated mouthpiece for Theo Epstein. With that in mind, why would Theo be trying to send a message thru Gammons that the Yankees are a disaster, a mess, spinning out of control, leaderless and rudderless?
Not a Charlie McCarthey Gammons fan and I truly believe that 75% of what he writes is a "plant" on someone else's behalf. He's also an unadulterated mouthpiece for Theo Epstein. With that in mind, why would Theo be trying to send a message thru Gammons that the Yankees are a disaster, a mess, spinning out of control, leaderless and rudderless?
Exactly my thought reading the article.
yanksphan
10-09-07, 07:28 PM
Exactly my thought reading the article.
I kept thinking about pie. Now I'm going to go eat some.
Roberto Kelly
10-09-07, 07:28 PM
He's not a Yankees insider...he doesn't have any feel for the organization's culture. I don't buy it.
I kept thinking about pie. Now I'm going to go eat some.
I hate pie.
yanksphan
10-09-07, 07:30 PM
I hate pie.
Pie or Gammons.
Pick one.
Pie or Gammons.
Pick one.
Pie. I'll spit it out.
yanksphan
10-09-07, 07:36 PM
Pie. I'll spit it out.
I admire your integrity - but I'm baffled by your hatred for pie.
I admire your integrity - but I'm baffled by your hatred for pie.
It's a deep rooted hatred of pie crust. My company gives us one thing for free every year - a Pie at Thanksgiving.
bronxbomberz212
10-09-07, 07:41 PM
i don't buy it either. he's grasping at straws right now. and isn't torre's contract up.... he can't be fired if his contract is up. and i doubt they are gonna trade wang.
Spiker101
10-09-07, 07:48 PM
Hey, I didn't know Robinson Cano was close to the patience that is going to make him a .340, 35-HR, 3-hole hitter.
I agree with Gammons that it's sheer lunacy and gross hypocrisy for Steinbrenner to fire Torre because the Yanks don't have a championship quality rotation (especially when the reason why they don't have the rotation can largely be laid at big George's doorstep), but I think he's getting a bit hyperbolic. If they get the right replacement and he can't handle the players' unhappiness about losing Joe, then they didn't get the right replacement. Of course that begs the question of why you'd even want to make a change but change for change's sake has long been the law of the King George's jungle. And it's always worked before. It has hasn't it?
Dynasties R Forever
10-09-07, 07:51 PM
like im gonna listen to a 96 year old red sox fan tell me about the state of the Yankees
Exactly. Especially one with such a weak grasp of facts he thinks Abreu can leave.
He doesn't know jack.
jughead
10-09-07, 07:53 PM
Yep, I'm sure players will turn down the chance in droves to play for a perennially contending team with tons of history and lore on the biggest stage - NY (that comes along with the big money of NY) - just because Torre isn't managing. Don't get me wrong, he probably helps court some players, but it doesn't seem to me other teams have problems getting FAs and they don't have Torre. Really, it all comes down to one thing: how much money are you going to pay me compared to all the other teams? And as usual, the Yankees will always have the same answer: More.
Casey37
10-09-07, 07:55 PM
like im gonna listen to a 96 year old red sox fan tell me about the state of the Yankees
Perfectly put. Let him go analyze his beloved pink sox.
nortonfan83
10-09-07, 08:13 PM
Peter's complaining in this article is sort of hypocrital in a way. He is crying because more recognition is on the fact that the Yankees lost than Cleveland winning. But who Peter is really overshadowing this? Of course... its the mainstream media, straight up to your employer which is ESPN. If you are complaining about the Indians not getting recognition Peter, then why didn't you write a huge article on their success, instead of adding to the Yankee stories, and then complaining about it.
As far as this franchise goes, I look forward to this offseason. We are going to be an even stronger team next year. Keep believing.
Martini6196
10-09-07, 08:30 PM
The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?
Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?
TheBamTino24
10-09-07, 08:32 PM
The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?
Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?
It's going to be a long winter if we're dangling Wang already. Ugh.
The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?
Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?
I'll do it in a nano second. But the Twins are going to want more.
Bronxite
10-09-07, 08:55 PM
like im gonna listen to a 96 year old red sox fan tell me about the state of the Yankees
Gammons knows nothing more than the rest of us who have never played pro baseball.I would listen to Horace Speed [who?] ,before Gammons.
In Mo I Trust
10-09-07, 08:57 PM
It's going to be a long winter if we're dangling Wang already.
:-poke-:
Mantle'sMutt
10-09-07, 09:06 PM
Pretty much. And Gammons, being an avid New Englandah, is no stranger to the hyperbole.
He knows it sells and that is his business. Probably had the article mostly written for a couple weeks, waiting for the recent events to use as a backdrop. The worst fear he brings up is one in which players would find the Yankees unattractive in terms of signing. Another reason the upcoming "manager discussions" had better be very well considered.
People actually pay money, real American dollars, to ESPN "INsider" to read Red Sox Nation presidental candidate Andrew Jackson's drivel? Can anyone explain this ? Why?
Rocketbooster
10-09-07, 09:19 PM
well, it's not just Peter. Buster Olney (and he would know the Yankees, since he covered them for a long time) said on ESPN that, with Hal/Hank/George/Randy Levine whomever running the show, it's possible that the team could spin out of control like it did in the 80's. Of course, in response to Karl Ravich, he said that the Yankees foundation is a lot more solid then it was back then because of their young players........still, I'm starting to get nervous again.
I'm really worried about Hank/Hal/Randy Levine - they are clearly overruling Brian (ok, he hasn't come out, but I firmly believe he wants Joe back) on this; what makes us think they won't overrule him on other matters?
The Yanks have such a promising future, but if they trade Phil or Joba - I don't think I could stand it.
"He was relaxed because this was the first time he didn't think he had to be great," says Mattingly
Please do not let him be manager next year.
well, it's not just Peter. Buster Olney (and he would know the Yankees, since he covered them for a long time) said on ESPN that, with Hal/Hank/George/Randy Levine whomever running the show, it's possible that the team could spin out of control like it did in the 80's. Of course, in response to Karl Ravich, he said that the Yankees foundation is a lot more solid then it was back then because of their young players........still, I'm starting to get nervous again.
I'm really worried about Hank/Hal/Randy Levine - they are clearly overruling Brian (ok, he hasn't come out, but I firmly believe he wants Joe back) on this; what makes us think they won't overrule him on other matters?
The Yanks have such a promising future, but if they trade Phil or Joba - I don't think I could stand it. So now a grown man who walks aorund with people calling him by the name of a children's shoe company icon is the smart guy? He did cover the Yankees, for a company called the New York Times. They also own a baseball team called the Boston Red Sox.
mgpenguin
10-09-07, 09:36 PM
So now a grown man who walks aorund with people calling him by the name of a children's shoe company icon is the smart guy? He did cover the Yankees, for a company called the New York Times. They also own a baseball team called the Boston Red Sox.
It's a conspiracy!
The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?
Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?
Do you think the twinkies will be offered a better SP than Wang for Santana?
Or should the Yanks wait until he hits FA?
Cashman never would have come back if he did not have the appreciation of the Steinbrenner boys or Levine. Cashman is in control of this team.
Do you think the twinkies will be offered a better SP than Wang for Santana?
Or should the Yanks wait until he hits FA?
I dont think they will be offered a better major league pitcher then Wang but im sure most teams in the running will be willing to part with 1 if not maybe 2 of their top prospects. Dont know if the yanks are willing to do that and quite frankly I hope they dont.
StatenIslandYankee
10-09-07, 11:56 PM
Some solid points.
BronxBaumer
10-10-07, 12:46 AM
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9906E3D71639F930A35752C1A963958260&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/V/Vecsey,%20George
You just never know what's gonna make sense.
b_joseph
10-10-07, 01:15 AM
A nice read as always from Peter.
I dont see where the issues come from. I actually think the light at the end of the tunnel is more visable now, than it has been since ALCS game 3.
NYDCYankee
10-10-07, 01:27 AM
Gammons must have been reading my posts. I suggested the Yankees forming a Santana package around Wang 3 last week, but everyone ingnored it. :(
Chamberlin gave up 2 runs in the post season. And 3 walks. A 4.91 ERA. And gave up the lead in game 2. No excuses please about bugs.........this is a mans game.
Someone tell me why they keep hinting that he had a great post season. Really.
Yankees13
10-10-07, 01:38 AM
Chamberlin gave up 2 runs in the post season. And 3 walks. A 4.91 ERA. And gave up the lead in game 2. No excuses please about bugs.........this is a mans game.
Someone tell me why they keep hinting that he had a great post season. Really.
Hey Tom Glavine didn't need bugs to give up 7 runs in a 1/3rd of an inning. By that token I think 1 run in 1.2 innings with bugs is damn impressive.
Don't get your hopes up about the Santana bit guys.
This is Gammons were talking about.
Spiker101
10-10-07, 03:26 AM
Please do not let him be manager next year.
I'm glad that comment struck someone else as bizarre. Why in god's name would he say something like that.
I do not want to defend Gammons and I disagree with much of this quote, but he is right about one thing:
This is a critical period for the team and messing things up could set the franchise back. Next year, as we all know, the y's will be selling tickets for the new stadium. They do not want to do so in a down, "rebuilding" year. Replacing ARod's offense is going to be difficult if he leaves. They obviously will have to over pay to keep Po and Mo and will pick up Abreu's option. They are then going to have to make a good decision on a big trade (that of course does not include Cano, Joba or Hughes). And perhaps sign a free agent hitter, and even a starting pitcher if Andy also leaves.
So making the right decisions will be key. If ownership panics, it could be disastrous.
The first order of business, choosing a manager, may be related to trying to keep ARod. That should be a primary consideration.
The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?
Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?
Speculation was going on about it yesterday. Michael Kay called a trade for Santana --> Wang/Melky a crazy good deal for the Yankees that the Twins would never make. I'm not so sure - toss in a good prospect and that's just as good for the Twinks. They want to dump Santana before they lose him with nothing to show for it. If they do that deal they get at least a solid #3 pitcher in the AL (you're not getting a better pitching offer), a center fielder (they will lose Hunter), and maybe a soild pitching or position prospect. Kay was so far off it was almost sad...
Anyway, as for Gammons...some of what he said made sense, but most of it was just Red Sox nation talking. Grats on pulling the easy first round match-up Boston, that Angels team really was at 100%. We'll see how you do against CC when he gives your two big bats absolutely nothing to hit.
scooterfan
10-10-07, 08:55 AM
Cashman never would have come back if he did not have the appreciation of the Steinbrenner boys or Levine. Cashman is in control of this team.
After reading THIS piece, I wonder if Gammons isn't full of beans on his Chicken Little piece:
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071010/SPORTS01/710100386/1035/SPORTS
Reporters were 'staked out' waiting for George...
A little past 4, the town car believed to be waiting to take the Yankees' owner to an area airport for the trip back to Tampa, Fla., drove off. Still no Boss sighting. Just son of Boss. Hank took a walk around the corner for a smoke, and he revealed that his dad had slipped out a side exit.
Draw your own conclusions - I wonder if George really is in charge... Now this...
"The record speaks for itself, but nothing lasts forever," Hank Steinbrenner said, perhaps saying a mouthful. "You don't know one way or another. But no decision has been made - period."
Torre's deal is expiring, and George Steinbrenner, of course, had said on Saturday night that he probably wouldn't be brought back if the Yankees failed to escape their 2-0 hole and advance. While not giving a timetable for the decision, Hank did say, "It won't be that long."
He also indicated that his dad hadn't talked to Torre yet and didn't have a fit when the Cleveland series ended.
This is all consistent with what Bill Madden reported in June - Hank and Hal have taken over.
Finally... what I interpret as praise for Cashman and his baseball people:
Despite the unhappy ending for the team, he was exceptionally upbeat about the future.
"I wouldn't call it 'disappointment,' " he said. "The big thing for me, and I think for all of us, is the optimism for the next five to 10 years. We've got the young pitchers and the young players we've got coming, position players. Next year, (Joba) Chamberlain and (Phil) Hughes will be starters. We've got (Ian) Kennedy coming along. We've got some other kids in the minors. It's going to be real nice.
"We're looking pretty good. Keep trying to shore up the bullpen, and we'll be set."
Doesn't look to me like there's a crisis within the Yankees after all. Maybe Gammons did a bit of wishing in that piece
dave8274
10-10-07, 08:58 AM
It's going to be a long winter if we're dangling Wang already. Ugh.
If they could get Santana for Wang and a couple B level prospects they would be nuts not to do that, assuming they could negotiate an extension.
Where I worry is when I see rumors for Santana mentioning guys like Hughes and Kennedy.
sharoncass
10-10-07, 08:59 AM
Gammons once said that after Steinbrenner fired Showalter that the team would be set back 10 years.
Yup. I don't believe half of what he says. He's nothing but a shill for the Red Sox. He raves about Robbie now, but a few years ago, when the Yankees were trying to trade for RJ and Robbie was included in the players they were offering, Gammons was on BBTN trashing him. He was practically begging the D'Backs not to make that trade.
Brian Cashman also said that there was no call to the Twins about Santana two hours after the game on Monday, so we know where that rumor came from.
When the Red Sox came in third last year and failed to even make the playoffs, I don't recall him writing about the Red Sox issues You'll never see him criticize them.
sharoncass
10-10-07, 09:02 AM
I'm glad that comment struck someone else as bizarre. Why in god's name would he say something like that.
If he really did say it at all.
yankeesnumber1
10-10-07, 09:21 AM
This is the typical "fallout" article that always appears after a yankee playoff loss. Theres always speculation after a playoff loss that the sky is going to fall over yankee stadium, everyones getting fired, the team is gonna be dismantled. Give it a few days and everything will be sorted out.
Exactly. We see this far too often these days, but this article could have been cut and paste from last year and changed a couple names. Gammons is always on the fence with me, but this article seems a little too dramatic.
Expect to see Joe back once Stein and company realize that they dont have a very good choice sample.
ChinMusic
10-10-07, 09:43 AM
What if it were Wang and Melky?
nycdoc999
10-10-07, 09:47 AM
I'd drive both Wang and Melky to the airport myself if we would get Santana back in return AND be able to negotiate an extension.
3 wins from starting pitchers in the last 17 post-season starts. That's what we've had. We don't have dominant starting pitching, but with Santana and Pettitte leading the way, Hughes and Chamberlain will be given time to develop...
ChinMusic
10-10-07, 09:53 AM
Both cost controlled. The Twins will need a CF and we have 2.
jimmyclark
10-10-07, 09:57 AM
Did Gammons right the same column 12 years ago and just change the names? Did he also write it 2 years ago after The Olde Towne team let Theo Epstein go? He could be right. But he could also mention if baseball had the wild card/three division format in the 1980s the Yankees would have made the playoffs several times. Saw a "Fortune" magazine article saying the younger Steinbrenner is a pretty focused shrewd man in the real estate business. Perhaps it doesn't translate but the has to be a huge "tangible asset" in owning baseball's premier team as long as it is well run. People like Gammons are interesting to read (not interesting enough to pay for the Insider) but as Joe Beningo on WFAN says "Can someone please tell me the last time Gammons was right on anything?" No one ever has.
torre's staying. the simple fact is the players DO hold yankee mgmt over a barrel here. and we'd have it no other way.
torre gets a deal, the yankee studs accept arb deals, arod realizes he's going to look like the biggest d-bag in history if he walks.
he won't, and within 3 days of the finish of the WS, all is right in yankee land.
print this post. it will happen this way.
nycdoc999
10-10-07, 10:05 AM
Huh? Posada and Rivera will take 1 year arb deals!?!
Not likely - it will take 2y + an option to sign both of them. If the money is right, they'll stay. Doesn't matter if it's Torre or Mattingly as the manager. The whole La Russa thing is nonsense - he doesn't have the patience or temprament to manage in NYC...
dmx42soriano
10-10-07, 10:10 AM
I really like the article Gammons wrote. I usually don't agree with the things he says, but I feel that the article is dead on.
ICEBERG18
10-10-07, 11:16 AM
Concerning a report that claimed the Yankees talked to the Twins about a deal for Johan Santana two hours after the Yankees were eliminated Monday night, Cashman said that wasn't true
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102007/sports/yankees/cash_feeling_the_heat__too.htm (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102007/sports/yankees/cash_feeling_the_heat__too.htm)
TheJobaRules
10-10-07, 11:45 AM
Concerning a report that claimed the Yankees talked to the Twins about a deal for Johan Santana two hours after the Yankees were eliminated Monday night, Cashman said that wasn't true
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102007/sports/yankees/cash_feeling_the_heat__too.htm (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102007/sports/yankees/cash_feeling_the_heat__too.htm)
Yeah but I want that to be true. It would be the greatest trade ever. :P
Game4Tino
10-10-07, 12:10 PM
It's interesting that whenever the Yankees lose a series vs. a team, the story is always that the Yankees lost and not that the other team won. Peter was right about game 2 - Carmona was the second story of that night (second to the bugs) when he pitched one of the greatest games I had ever seen vs. the Yanks in the postseason.
EXACTLY!!!
It's like once the Yankees make the Playoffs, the media and most of the fan base completely change their mindset and they somehow become the prohibitive favorites to win it all. What is this based on, salary? The Indians where the better team, hands down. Had the Yankees won that series, I would've considered it an upset. This is one of the aspects of being a Yankee fan that bothers me. Everyone forgets how lucky this team was to even be included in the postseason. Had the Tigers not fallen apart completely...
bronxburning
10-10-07, 12:49 PM
Gammons is a Red Sox fan and he doesn't hide it by mentioning Beckett whenever possible. He shows insincere concerns about the choas in the Yankees organization.
THe only thing he worries about if the same fate falls on his beloved Red Sox when they play the Indians. I hope it does and then I want to see the same type of article to come out.
mgpenguin
10-10-07, 12:51 PM
Gammons is a good writer and makes some good points in this article. I think the fact that he's a Sox fan talking about the Yankees sours peoples' feelings about him.
wileedog
10-10-07, 01:50 PM
They do not want to do so in a down, "rebuilding" year.
In this town, they can market the kids. Everyone remembers what happened with the last group of budding young talent.
If Hughes, Joba and Kennedy continue their paths to success, they are going to be rock stars around here.
A-Rod is a whole different animal, but I dont think Po or Mo or especially Abreau staying or going will nearly as much of a marketing affect as these 3 potential young stars are going to have if they pan out next year.
TinoFan84
10-10-07, 02:08 PM
Peter Gammons- Yanks' issues go beyond Torre
'
Thoughts? I really do like Peter, but I definitely think he's overstating the chaos that he thinks surrounds the franchise. Until I see evidence indicating otherwise, Brian is still in charge of this team....(except for the Joe thing, unfortunately, but what can you do? That's George). Now all of a sudden players aren't going to want to play for the Yankees anymore?
I don't see Posada or Rivera leaving......although Mo for sure is a man of principal. If he truly feels the Yankees have wronged him or Joe, who knows? Still, I can't imagine him wanting to finish his career in anything other than pinstripes.
I like his points about the new core of youngsters........and of course, his implication that firing Joe is a lousy move. Everyone in baseball loves Joe
I've got to disagree with you ... I can absolutely see both Jorge and Mo testing the waters and yes, leaving, if indeed the Yankees let Torre go. Personally I think switching managers isn't the answer but I know there are many on this forum who disagree with me on that point ... but it certainly wasn't Joe's fault the bats went silent ... honestly the only thing I fault him for is starting Wang in Game 4 instead of Mussina.
Yankees4LifeNYC
10-10-07, 02:09 PM
WANG - 27 Years Old
19-6 3.63 ERA
19-7 3.70 ERA
2007 Salary $489,500
vs.
SANTANA - 28 Years Old
19-6 2.77 ERA
15-13 3.33 ERA
2007 Salary $13,000,000
Is Santana really that much of an upgrade over Wang? I don't think so. Santana is going to get mega bucks and the Yanks don't have to pony up for Wang for a while. Wang has the most wins in baseball over the last 2 years. Why trade him for anyone, let alone a guy who makes over $12,000,000 more a year and is going to be a FA?
Wang won 19 games and got lit up in game 1. It happens and it was asking a lot for a guy to pitch a playoff game on 3 days rest for the 1st time in his career. IMHO Wang is a keeper. The Yankees don't need Santana.
justtxyank
10-10-07, 02:22 PM
Santana is a significant upgrade over Wang. Wang is a solid pitcher, but he's not great. Santana might be the best pitcher in all of baseball and maybe the best since Pedro in his prime.
The two don't compare.
Spiker101
10-10-07, 02:29 PM
arod realizes he's going to look like the biggest d-bag in history if he walks.
.
This is an interesting point I hadn't thought of. If ARod wants to walk, firing Torre is going to give him a justification that'll fly with the public. Otherwise, you're right, he's gong to look like a pure mercenary.
JavyVazquezIsSick
10-10-07, 02:31 PM
If ARod wants to walk, firing Torre is going to give him a justification that'll fly with the public.
Do you actually think anyone is going to buy that because I don't at all.
Spiker101
10-10-07, 02:38 PM
WANG - 27 Years Old
19-6 3.63 ERA
19-7 3.70 ERA
2007 Salary $489,500
vs.
SANTANA - 28 Years Old
19-6 2.77 ERA
15-13 3.33 ERA
2007 Salary $13,000,000
Is Santana really that much of an upgrade over Wang? I don't think so. Santana is going to get mega bucks and the Yanks don't have to pony up for Wang for a while. Wang has the most wins in baseball over the last 2 years. Why trade him for anyone, let alone a guy who makes over $12,000,000 more a year and is going to be a FA?
Wang won 19 games and got lit up in game 1. It happens and it was asking a lot for a guy to pitch a playoff game on 3 days rest for the 1st time in his career. IMHO Wang is a keeper. The Yankees don't need Santana.
I agree with you that Wang is a keeper (there's an aspect of robbing Peter to pay Paul in any Wang for Santana scenario) but that shouldn't blind you to the fact that Santana is a much better starter. In any case, what the Yanks need to do is decide whether they can give afford to give the Twins what they really want, which is a young, inexpensive big time offensive player. I'm speaking of Cano of course. That's the only trade that's gonig to make sense for both sides.
Spiker101
10-10-07, 02:42 PM
Do you actually think anyone is going to buy that because I don't at all.
I think the non-cynical casual fan will. How many non-cynics are there still left in America? Probably not all that many.:D But maybe the point is that the only person who has to buy it is ARod himself.
Peter Gammons- Yanks' issues go beyond Torre
'
Thoughts? I really do like Peter, but I definitely think he's overstating the chaos that he thinks surrounds the franchise. Until I see evidence indicating otherwise, Brian is still in charge of this team....(except for the Joe thing, unfortunately, but what can you do? That's George). Now all of a sudden players aren't going to want to play for the Yankees anymore?
I don't see Posada or Rivera leaving......although Mo for sure is a man of principal. If he truly feels the Yankees have wronged him or Joe, who knows? Still, I can't imagine him wanting to finish his career in anything other than pinstripes.
I like his points about the new core of youngsters........and of course, his implication that firing Joe is a lousy move. Everyone in baseball loves Joe
There is something about a Red Sox fan commenting on the situation of the Yankees I never quite trust. But, he does have a point. If Big Stein goes ape and dumps the youngsters for "proven winners" then yes, the Yankees are screwed.
Gammons is a good writer and makes some good points in this article. I think the fact that he's a Sox fan talking about the Yankees sours peoples' feelings about him.
:2thumbs::2thumbs:
Gammons once said that after Steinbrenner fired Showalter that the team would be set back 10 years.
he was clearly wrong. it was 12 years !!
goin for 27
10-10-07, 05:32 PM
torre's staying. the simple fact is the players DO hold yankee mgmt over a barrel here. and we'd have it no other way.
torre gets a deal, the yankee studs accept arb deals, arod realizes he's going to look like the biggest d-bag in history if he walks.
he won't, and within 3 days of the finish of the WS, all is right in yankee land.
print this post. it will happen this way.
There is ZERO chance of ANY of the Yankees studs accepting arbitration.
Dynasties R Forever
10-10-07, 06:08 PM
I think the non-cynical casual fan will. How many non-cynics are there still left in America? Probably not all that many.:D But maybe the point is that the only person who has to buy it is ARod himself.
There are 3, but one is very very ill and could go at any moment.
audio101
10-10-07, 06:34 PM
He knows a lot more then us average fan thats for sure. Good article.:)
roblyo33
10-10-07, 07:20 PM
he was clearly wrong. it was 12 years !!
OK, I know you're kidding but, you should have added this :P
I'm glad that comment struck someone else as bizarre. Why in god's name would he say something like that.
Hey, when you're 21 and coming into a do or die playoff game, after Roger Clemens just threw his probable last pitch, in Yankee Stadium, and you have to buckle way down and pretty much not give up any runs or face your team not just being out, but your manager too, that'll be the first time you don't think you have to be great too.
Or something. :o
PeteRFNY
10-10-07, 10:51 PM
Gammons once said that after Steinbrenner fired Showalter that the team would be set back 10 years.
That would be the guy. I can clearly remember how he was flinging his trademark Gammons Drool all over the place on Baseball Tonight when Showalter was not brought back (again, that also was NOT a 'firing' - his contract had ran out). More proof that George is a madman and the Yankees are in chaos! How can they not bring back the great Buck Showalter?
(At the time, I looked at the TV and said, "Because he mis-used Mo Rivera throughout the entire series and actually thought using Jack McDowell instead of John Wetteland to close Game 5 was a GOOD idea".)
Just substitute the name "Joe Torre" for "Buck Showalter" and you essentially have the same exact rant. Hopefully, he will be equally as gifted in the clairvoyance department THIS time around.
IronCaballo4
10-11-07, 09:51 AM
Here's my solution: Name Changes...
Carl Pavano = Carlos Pavano
Jason Giambi = Juan Gilberto
Mike Mussina = Miguel Modesto
Kyle Farnsworth = Kiko Francisco
...then trade them to the Mets
JavyVazquezIsSick
10-11-07, 09:53 AM
^:lol:
Joe Torre = Juan Torres
IronCaballo4
10-11-07, 11:06 AM
^:lol:
Joe Torre = Juan Torres
I would've also accepted Jose Torrealba
wileedog
10-11-07, 01:58 PM
Here's my solution: Name Changes...
Carl Pavano = Carlos Pavano
Jason Giambi = Juan Gilberto
Mike Mussina = Miguel Modesto
Kyle Farnsworth = Kiko Francisco
...then trade them to the Mets
:lol:
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