View Full Version : Let's start worrying about the 2008 payroll...!
CaptainThurman
08-05-07, 10:54 AM
The thought process goes something like this -- we're really in the first full year of Cashman trying to not trade away youth for inflexible veteran contracts, trying to restore some roster flexibility, and trying to get younger and more athletic. But does he still have a salary albatross around his neck?
Here is my "back of the envelope" quick analysis....
C -- Posada and Molina will cost about $15-16 million next year, combined.
1B -- Giambi is at $22 million, and he and his contract are immovable. The probable back ups are Shelley Duncan or Andy Phillips, so let's say $23 million combined, unless they sign a real full time 1B.
2B -- Cano is still cheap, but I believe Betemit will be arbitration eligible, so the two of them together ought to be a bargain at about $2.5 million.
SS -- Jeter will knock down about $21 million next year, more or less.
3B -- A-Rod is the question mark, insofar as his decision to walk. This position will either cost the Yankees $30+ million to keep A-Rod, $10-15 million to get someone else, or about $2 million to hand the job to Betemit.
OF -- Another question mark, insofar as Abreu is concerned, and also depedning on whether or not Damon is moved. But regardless, the $13 million slot for an outfielder is established, so add up the OF to about $40 million, give or take.
Bench -- Not much, and Molina, Melky and Betemit were already counted in the position totals, but let's add a million bucks just to account for a few extras like Duncan or Cairo or some other piece parts.
SP -- Let's start with Pavano and his $10 million of nothingness. Add Mussina and his $12 million of almost nothingness. Pettitte has a $16 million option that he will probably exercise, and if not, someone else will get that salary slot. Wang is arbitration eligible, I believe, so mark him down at $6 million. Hughes will be the bargain at $400K, and Igawa makes $5 million. And someone is likely to fill the Clemens slot at $10-15 million, or even more. That's about $60-65 million for Starting Pitchers.
RP -- Mo will knock down a good $12.5 million, and Farnsworth, whether or not he's with the Yankees, will cost a solid $5 million. I'm going to guess that 5 or 6 other middle relievers will run about $2 million each, or $10-12 million, bringing the relief corps total to $25-27 million.
So....without any major moves or salary dumping, and bringing back largely the same team in 2008, the payroll will come to more than $200 million (depending on what happens at 3B).
That's scary....the only way Cashman gets the salary situation under control is to let A-Rod walk and sign a less expensive 3B option, and bring Chamberlain, Kennedy and the rest of the kiddie corps into the SP/RP mix. Even then, he only gets down to the $160s millions....
2009 might be a slighlyt different story -- Pavano, Giambi, Mussina, Abreu and maybe even Damon will be gone, but replacing them will cost another boatload of cash....
Igawa makes 4 million dollars.
2009 might be a slighlyt different story -- Pavano, Giambi, Mussina, Abreu and maybe even Damon will be gone, but replacing them will cost another boatload of cash....
Pettitte and Farnworth will be gone too.
Our 2009 rotation should shape up like this:
Wang, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy or Horne
Use the money to get Santana and Texiera.
Big Game Andy
08-05-07, 10:59 AM
C -- Posada and Molina will cost about $15-16 million next year, combined.
Molina got paid $850,000 this year and there is no way Posada makes $15 miliion a year next year.
RP -- Mo will knock down a good $12.5 million, and Farnsworth, whether or not he's with the Yankees, will cost a solid $5 million. I'm going to guess that 5 or 6 other middle relievers will run about $2 million each, or $10-12 million, bringing the relief corps total to $25-27 million.
I can guarentee you that 5 to 6 of our middle relievers will not run at about $2 million each. Most of these guys are still in arbitration, the only guy you have to factor in is Vizciano and perhaps Bruney. No way we spend $25 million on our relief.
Rastven
08-05-07, 11:12 AM
But does he still have a salary albatross around his neck?
It's really that big a deal? I mean in baseball salary is basically a number with no consequence because the cap isn't a hard one. Other than the luxury tax of course but that just effects the team profitability which remains high anyway because of YES, high attendance etc, etc.
08 will be the last year the Yankees have a huge payroll as the young pitchers come on stream with maybe a single FA bumping the value. From then on more position players should filter in to replace the older vets or possibly younger FA's are used but even then the money would be as crazy as now because of the cash we save on the starting staff.
Mantle'sMutt
08-05-07, 11:30 AM
Let's not and say that we did. ;)
Cheesyhoboe
08-05-07, 12:01 PM
Pettitte and Farnworth will be gone too.
Our 2009 rotation should shape up like this:
Wang, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy or Horne
Use the money to get Santana and Texiera.
I would love to see our 2009 rotation all home-grown, but do you really think all 4 of those guys are going to pan out? I just don't see it, when does that EVER happen?
It'n not how much we spend, it's how we spend it. Lately we have thrown money away on useless players. Clemens' $18 million, Giambi isn't (and won't) earn his $22 MM salary; Pavano and Farnsworth's $15 MM and Mussina's $15 MM and Damon's whatever all are collectively producing little to nothing.
If we go out to spend in the free agent market it should be with a lot more wisdom than we have had to date.
Finally, as Good as ARod is, is he really worth $30 MM a year?
Andy
JL25and3
08-05-07, 12:13 PM
Finally, as Good as ARod is, is he really worth $30 MM a year?
Worth it? I don't know how to answer that question - is any baseball player worth $30M, or $20M, or $5M? The question really isn't whether he's worth it, but whether the Yankees can afford to let him walk. He's not replaceable, and the team is in pretty desperate straits without him. Sign him.
As for the original post: first, Cano will be arbitration-eligible. He has 6 fewer days of service than Wang, and they'll both be eligible as Super-2's.
Second, as to the thread title: no, let's not worry. There isn't much in the way of big-ticket free agents hitting the market this year, so they only need to concentrate on signing Rodriguez, Posada and Rivera. And who cares if they get the payroll below $160M or not? Remember, starting in 2009, their revenue stream will increase dramatically.
brosiusbuddy
08-05-07, 12:17 PM
Who cares about the payroll? I honestly don't get why any fans give a crap about payroll. Whether the Yankees have a 20 million dollar or a 200 million dollar payroll, tickets will still be expensive. Let the Yankees spend whatever it takes to put the best team out there.
nnysiny
08-05-07, 12:27 PM
Who cares about the payroll? I honestly don't get why any fans give a crap about payroll. Whether the Yankees have a 20 million dollar or a 200 million dollar payroll, tickets will still be expensive. Let the Yankees spend whatever it takes to put the best team out there.
you should care because it affects future transactions. this thread isnt about ticket prices
Dr. Gonzo
08-05-07, 12:28 PM
2009 is the year where it really all changes, next year is business as usual.
i don't see arod getting 30+ million a year, who will pay that?
Rastven
08-05-07, 12:32 PM
you should care because it affects future transactions. this thread isnt about ticket prices
Unless new ownership takes over or the value of the club and assets plummet I can't see the Yankees ever being inhibited from making a big deal if it's needed.
GrouchoNYY
08-05-07, 12:33 PM
Let's not and say that we did. ;)
=======
I wholly agree. Microworrying is endemic here. Loosen up and enjoy the baseball ( a radical idea).
nnysiny
08-05-07, 12:38 PM
Unless new ownership takes over or the value of the club and assets plummet I can't see the Yankees ever being inhibited from making a big deal if it's needed.
time for me to pull the "Carlos Beltran card" for the umpteenth time.
remember when the Yankees had to pass on Beltran because they put a ton of money into Randy Johnson?
hatfieldms
08-05-07, 12:48 PM
so we should let arod walk to keep our salary cap below 200 million? That is pretty stupid. It isnt like the payroll is crippling us. No way the Yankees should let arod walk
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 12:48 PM
Let's not and say that we did. ;)
Exactly. Did I miss something? Were we mathematically eliminated last night?
Exactly. Did I miss something? Were we mathematically eliminated last night?
Not last night. :)
you should care because it affects future transactions. this thread isnt about ticket prices
I used to care, but the Yankees will always have the highest payroll and even if someday that only amounts $1M more then the RedSox payroll it will still be a sticking point in the baseball universe.
It's also kind of futile in that George got this payroll at the level it is and the only way it's going to go down is through contract experation.
I still don't understand why people here keep pining for Beltran.
He has only had one year of performance out of almost three so far that has been worthy of of his contract.
If monetary contraints kept us from signing Beltran 3 years ago, then we lucked out.
The Mets still have about $80 million to pay Beltran over the remainder of his contract.
Despite the disappointment that was Randy Johnson, I'd argue we got far more bang for the bucks we spent on RJ than the Mets will get from Beltran.
If possible we should try to get the payroll below 155 for 2008 and below 162 for 2009. Those are the luxury tax thresholds.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 02:09 PM
If possible we should try to get the payroll below 155 for 2008 and below 162 for 2009. Those are the luxury tax thresholds.
And people laughed at me last year and in the off-season when I suggested the Yanks try to do this (by developing their farm system as they have since done). I am not sure if 155 is possible in 2008, but I think by 09 it is.
And people laughed at me last year and in the off-season when I suggested the Yanks try to do this (by developing their farm system as they have since done). I am not sure if 155 is possible in 2008, but I think by 09 it is.
I think the 2009 threshold is definitely possible. WIth Giambi, Pettite, Mussina, Pavano, Farnsworth, assuming we pick up Abreu's option, we got about 81 million coming off the books. And most of those guys will be replaced with guys from the minors who make the league minimum.
If possible we should try to get the payroll below 155 for 2008 and below 162 for 2009. Those are the luxury tax thresholds.
I think it would be a mistake for the Yankees to limit themselves by adopting an artificial salary cap, particularly when their revenues are about to increase with the new ballpark.
The key objective should be spending intelligently, not spending less.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 02:15 PM
I think the 2009 threshold is definitely possible. WIth Giambi, Pettite, Mussina, Pavano, Farnsworth, assuming we pick up Abreu's option, we got about 81 million coming off the books. And most of those guys will be replaced with guys from the minors who make the league minimum.
Agreed. I think 08 will be tough only because we still will have Mussina and Giambi on the books and we also will have to give a raise to Mariano and Jorge as well. And A-Rod isn't even in the equation yet. Mussina and Giambi will be around $35 million alone coming off the books after 08. Abreu is an interesting thing though as we could save quite a bit there.
I think it would be a mistake for the Yankees to limit themselves by adopting an artificial salary cap, particularly when their revenues are about to increase with the new ballpark.
The key objective should be spending intelligently, not spending less.
I like those salary caps because that means other teams aren't getting the Yankee money. It annoys me when teams complain eventhough they get Yankee money.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 02:17 PM
I think it would be a mistake for the Yankees to limit themselves by adopting an artificial salary cap, particularly when their revenues are about to increase with the new ballpark.
The key objective should be spending intelligently, not spending less.
The one thing that I would like to avoid though (with exceptions, I think A-Rod is one of them) those contracts for long durations (more than 4 years).
Agreed. I think 08 will be tough only because we still will have Mussina and Giambi on the books and we also will have to give a raise to Mariano and Jorge as well. And A-Rod isn't even in the equation yet. Mussina and Giambi will be around $35 million alone coming off the books after 08. Abreu is an interesting thing though as we could save quite a bit there.
Mo is makng 10.5, at max he'll probably get 12.5.
Jorge is making 12 this year. Mostly likely he'll be taking a paycut. I don't care what kind of season he is having, I don't see any team out there giving a 35-36 year old catcher a big multiyear deal.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 02:19 PM
Mo is makng 10.5, at max he'll probably get 12.5.
Jorge is making 12 this year. Mostly likely he'll be taking a paycut. I don't care what kind of season he is having, I don't see any team out their giving a 35-36 year old catcher a big multiyear deal.
I agree on Mo, but not with Posada. I think his age will affect the length of the deal, but there is absolutely no way he takes less for 08. I expect him to sign a 2-3 (most likely 2 and an option) at around $13-15 million per.
I agree on Mo, but not with Posada. I think his age will affect the length of the deal, but there is absolutely no way he takes less for 08. I expect him to sign a 2-3 (most likely 2 and an option) at around $13-15 million per.
No way. Who do you expect to give him 13-15 a year. Looking at history, what 36 year old catchers have gotten that kind of money? The Yanks have to be tough with Posada, give him a 2 year 20 million dollar deal or let him walk.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 02:22 PM
No way. Who do you expect to give him 13-15 a year. Looking at history, what 36 year old catchers have gotten that kind of money? The Yanks have to be tough with Posada, give him a 2 year 20 million dollar deal or let him walk.
Supply and demand. If he showed any sign of decline this year, I'd agree, but he seems to be getting better. If the Yanks offer is 2/20 Jorge will be playing for someone else and we will have Molina and Nievers as our catchers. If after the time he's been a Yankee and the way he's played (this year especially) and the Yanks offered a paycut like that I'd tell the Yanks where to go.
Supply and demand. If he showed any sign of decline this year, I'd agree, but he seems to be getting better. If the Yanks offer is 2/20 Jorge will be playing for someone else and we will have Molina and Nievers as our catchers. If after the time he's been a Yankee and the way he's played (this year especially) and the Yanks offered a paycut like that I'd tell the Yanks where to go.
Last time I checked, 10 million dollars for a catcher that is going to be 37 years old is probably the best deal in baseball history. The thing is he isn't going to get better, history and age are against him. If he wants to walk, then let him walk. The Yanks then should try to sign Michael Barrett
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 02:29 PM
Last time I checked, 10 million dollars for a catcher that is going to be 37 years old is probably the best deal in baseball history. The thing is he isn't going to get better, history and age are against him. If he wants to walk, then let him walk. The Yanks then should try to sign Michael Barrett
If he were earning less than that this year, I might be a bit agreeable. But to ask someone coming off a great year to take a paycut, he will turn it down. 37 is only an issue if at 35 there is signs of decline. I see none. He will get more money elsewhere so if the Yanks want him back, they have to come to the table. Heck, he may even get 3 from someone, but I wouldn't go 3 years.
Michael Barrett? After losing Sheffield I've had my full of headcases.
primetime714
08-05-07, 02:33 PM
I don't really care what the Payroll is but I'd just like to see the team invest more wisely. Lets stop wasting money on guys like Pavano, Igawa, and Farnsworth.
This offseason I'd like to see us keep our team for the most part intact. We should get a nice boost from the minors with a full season of Hughes and then Joba and Kennedy being ready to be called up into the rotation. I'd just like to see us bring back most of our guys and lock down our bullpen particularly the setup spots. That should put us right around where we're at right now which is fine by me.
Then in 2009 we'll free up a lot of money and hopefully guys like Texeira, Santana, and Sabathia will not be locked up before then.
brosiusbuddy
08-05-07, 02:34 PM
you should care because it affects future transactions. this thread isnt about ticket prices
LOL. Does it? Does the fact that we have something like 3 of the 5 most expensive contracts in baseball as well as the highest payroll stop us from posting 20 some odd million for a ................ty Japanese pitcher? Did it stop us from being the top bidder for Roger Clemens? Would an already high payroll ever stop cashman from being the highest bidder for premier guys down the line such as Johan Santana? Does the highest payroll in baseball mean the Yankees won't fork over $800 million of their own money to build their new stadium?
The answer is no. The Yankees continually make more money than any other franchise and chances are they'll continue to spend more than any other franchise.
Matsui55
08-05-07, 02:36 PM
No way. Who do you expect to give him 13-15 a year. Looking at history, what 36 year old catchers have gotten that kind of money? The Yanks have to be tough with Posada, give him a 2 year 20 million dollar deal or let him walk.
Remember as well that because Posada vested the option year this season by meeting the games played incentives, he will be paid $4M by the Yanks next year whether he plays for them or not. That will help assauge any pay cut, as his agent can still "add in" the $4M and claim its a bigger salary for 2008.
For example, let's assume that the Yanks give Posada a 2 year $20M deal (the first year guaranteed, second year a joint option season). His agent would publically announce it as a 2 year $24M deal because the Yanks would be paying him the extra $4M- and the agent could claim he is being truthful, because Posada WOULD be getting paid the $24M over two years (assuming option exercised).
Furthermore, Posada IS getting older. Playing C is the most brutal job in baseball- foul tips, squatting for hours at a time, playing in extra equipment in the high heat and humidity, etc. It takes a lot out of even young players. We see more and more stars hit the wall in their late 30's- and few C outside of Pudge have ever played well after 35- even Jonny Bench was a 3B by then (and so was Joe Torre).
The Yanks, loyalty aside, cannot commit themselves to a multi-year deal without escape clauses at Posada's age- he WILL be 36 next year, and nothing can change that. I think that if the above deal (2 years- 1st year guaranteed, 2nd year joint player/team option) were offered, he would take it.
That way, if the decline comes suddenly- and with a C it can literally occur overnight- the Yanks have a graceful way out- just don't exercise the option (much like they did with Bernie). There are no trades or releases or benchings involved- the two sides just walk away with no commitments.
Grabbing Molina was an acknowledgement that they need a C who could step in and start for long stretches if Posada declines, until a younger, better C arrives. No one in the Yanks system is within 3 years of NY, so that C will have to come from outside.
If he were earning less than that this year, I might be a bit agreeable. But to ask someone coming off a great year to take a paycut, he will turn it down. 37 is only an issue if at 35 there is signs of decline. I see none. He will get more money elsewhere so if the Yanks want him back, they have to come to the table. Heck, he may even get 3 from someone, but I wouldn't go 3 years.
There is no point of giving him more money, because the probability of him having a season like this year is low. You'll be giving him a lot of money for his declining years.
When you say 3 from someone, who do you think will give him 3 years?
When Ivan Rodriguez became a free agent back in 2003 after coming off an incredible season when he was 31 years old there were like no suitors. He had to settle with a 1 year contract with the Marlins.
Worth it? I don't know how to answer that question - is any baseball player worth $30M, or $20M, or $5M? The question really isn't whether he's worth it, but whether the Yankees can afford to let him walk. He's not replaceable, and the team is in pretty desperate straits without him. Sign him.
As for the original post: first, Cano will be arbitration-eligible. He has 6 fewer days of service than Wang, and they'll both be eligible as Super-2's.
Second, as to the thread title: no, let's not worry. There isn't much in the way of big-ticket free agents hitting the market this year, so they only need to concentrate on signing Rodriguez, Posada and Rivera. And who cares if they get the payroll below $160M or not? Remember, starting in 2009, their revenue stream will increase dramatically.
He's not replaceable???? What have the Yankees won since he's been here???
Let him go if he wants more money and sign someone for $10 MM or less and use the rest of the money on Pitching. That's what we need more than a $30- $35 million 3Bman.
Andy
Matsui55
08-05-07, 02:41 PM
Last time I checked, 10 million dollars for a catcher that is going to be 37 years old is probably the best deal in baseball history. The thing is he isn't going to get better, history and age are against him. If he wants to walk, then let him walk. The Yanks then should try to sign Michael Barrett
I think that the best option might be to visit the Angels again, and see if they are willing to deal Jeff Mathis.
Remember that the Angels have expressed interest in various times in Giambi, and when he was a FA, Damon. Since Giambi is entering the last season of that awful deal in 2008, if the Yanks were willing to eat half of the $20M (assuming Giambi proves healthy in August/September), the Angels would probably not feel too bad about paying Giambi $10M for a year and decide if they want to keep him later.
If the Yanks offered Giambi, plus half of his salary, I think the Angels might be willing to deal Mathis (remember that the starter is Napoli there) and maybe a lesser prospect too.
I think that the best option might be to visit the Angels again, and see if they are willing to deal Jeff Mathis.
Remember that the Angels have expressed interest in various times in Giambi, and when he was a FA, Damon. Since Giambi is entering the last season of that awful deal in 2008, if the Yanks were willing to eat half of the $20M (assuming Giambi proves healthy in August/September), the Angels would probably not feel too bad about paying Giambi $10M for a year and decide if they want to keep him later.
If the Yanks offered Giambi, plus half of his salary, I think the Angels might be willing to deal Mathis (remember that the starter is Napoli there) and maybe a lesser prospect too.
Giambi has said he doesn't want to be traded and has a full NTC. For him to be traded, the Angels would have to give him an extension.
Matsui55
08-05-07, 02:51 PM
He's not replaceable???? What have the Yankees won since he's been here???
Let him go if he wants more money and sign someone for $10 MM or less and use the rest of the money on Pitching. That's what we need more than a $30- $35 million 3Bman.
Andy
The Yanks won a bunch of titles with Charlie Hayes and Brosius at 3B- neither of whom would EVER be mistaken for ARod.
Cano and Cabrera are emerging as legitimate bottom of the lineup hitters. Matsui will be returning, and the Yanks just might exercise Abreu's option.
If the Yanks didn't spend money on ARod, they could use it all to get a righty 1B OR spend some of it to send to another team to trade Giambi (entering last year of contract- eat half- about $10M) and possibly Damon too (half of $26M- the amount due over the next two years- is $13M).
While neither would bring back a ton in a deal, they could both be used to fill holes while Betemit covers 3B. For example, if the Yanks got a young C and a couple of quality veteran bullpen arms for Damon and Giambi, I think they come out ahead.
If the Yanks had Melky in CF, Jeter at SS, Cano at 2B, Abreu in RF, Matsui at DH and Posada at C (assuming they give him the deal I noted in another post), that's a solid core. They could fill in LF, 3B and 1B without great difficulty- Betemit could take 3B, they could continue using Phillips at 1B until a better deal comes along- and there are a LOT of OF available every winter.
It would also give the Yanks another year to push along their young hitters in the minors to see who steps up- there is a small batch of OF who may be in AA next year. If the Yanks buy them another year, they MIGHT be able to fill from within and prevent the panic signings like Damon and Pavano.
Matsui55
08-05-07, 02:53 PM
Giambi has said he doesn't want to be traded and has a full NTC. For him to be traded, the Angels would have to give him an extension.
I think they are interested in that- remember that without Garrett Anderson, that team is VERY righty at the plate. To them, it would be just like the ARod deal for the Yanks- they give him a couple more years at a more realistic rate, and the Yanks partially subsidize it.
Giambi is a California guy, and might find going back a little better than dealing with NY and the media there.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 06:45 PM
Giambi could be traded, but we'd have to pick up something like 75% of his salary to get anything of value in return.
Giambi could be traded, but we'd have to pick up something like 75% of his salary to get anything of value in return.
So you'd lose his bat, but not gain very much in salary flexibility. I can't see that happening.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 06:47 PM
So you'd lose his bat, but not gain very much in salary flexibility. I can't see that happening.
Exactly. I am not a fan of trading players and picking up much of their salary. I'd rather hold on to him and HOPE he can stay healthy, even as a full-time DH.
There are always odd cases. But what sign has there from Posada that he is anywhere close to a slowdown? There are two components in a contract. Dollar amounts and length. Performance is the primary driver of the dollars, age is the pr imary driver of years. If age was the primary driver of dollars, Clemens wouldn't be getting a pro-rated $28 million deal. Glavine wouldn't be getting his annual salary. Posada will decline at some point, but there isn't even the slightest hint of it as of now. Pudge was more of a case of the agent than anything else.
Of all the catchers in the history of mlb which ones have performed at a high level at the age of 37?
As another poster stated, 2 yrs 20 million with the second year being a mutual option. Otherwise let him walk. Posada will see that there aren't a lot of opportunities out there for a 37 year old catcher who wants big money. I don't think I can name any teams that would want him at his price.
Yankees - yes
Boston - no (varitek)
Dodgers - no (Martin)
Angels - no (Napoli)
Mets - no (LoDuca)
Detroit - no (Pudge)
Mariners - no (Jojima or Clement)
Giants - probably not
White Sox- no (have Pierzynski signed at a good rate for 2008)
What team is gonna give Posada 13-15 as you are saying he will get?
OldYankeeFan
08-05-07, 06:50 PM
Don't forget, we will most likely be saving a good chunk of Joe's 7.5 mil salary.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 06:50 PM
Of all the catchers in the history of mlb which ones have performed at a high level at the age of 37?
As another poster stated, 2 yrs 20 million with the second year being a mutual option. Otherwise let him walk. Posada will see that there aren't a lot of opportunities out there for a 37 year old catcher who wants big money. I don't think I can name any teams that would want him at his price.
Yankees - yes
Boston - no (varitek)
Dodgers - no (Martin)
Angels - no (Napoli)
Mets - no (LoDuca)
Detroit - no (Pudge)
Mariners - no (Jojima or Clement)
Giants - probably not
White Sox- no (have Pierzynski signed at a good rate for 2008)
as you can see I deleted my post.
as you can see I deleted my post.
oh ok
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 06:54 PM
oh ok
one thing, I thoughtPosada was 35? will have to look it up.
one thing, I thoughtPosada was 35? will have to look it up.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/posadjo01.shtml
According to baseball reference his DOB is 8/17/71.
He'll be in like a week or 2.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 06:58 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/posadjo01.shtml
According to baseball reference his DOB is 8/17/71.
He'll be in like a week or 2.
ah the day after mine
that changes it a bit. I thought he was going to be 35 a bit longer. I still don't see him taking a 20% cut, but he won't get a raise either.
CalYankeeFan
08-05-07, 06:59 PM
I'd rather worry about the 2007 bullpen........2008 seems like forever right now.
ah the day after mine
that changes it a bit. I thought he was going to be 35 a bit longer. I still don't see him taking a 20% cut, but he won't get a raise either.
After the season he's had, he will certainly feel as though he's earned a raise, regardless of his age. He won't get a long term deal, but he'll want more money than he's been getting.
And I think he'll get it.
After the season he's had, he will certainly feel as though he's earned a raise, regardless of his age. He won't get a long term deal, but he'll want more money than he's been getting.
And I think he'll get it.
He is getting 12 million dollars. I think he is the highest paid catcher in the majors. How much more money does he want?
Posada is set for a rude awakening if he thinks teams will be lineing up to sign him to multiyear contract for big money.
Haywood2K6
08-05-07, 07:06 PM
Posada and Mariano are in a position with the team where they can basically name their price, especially Posada because there is no internal options at catcher and he has been so valuable to us throughout the years. Same with Mo. I expect both to be paid 15 million + for the next 3 years. A-Rod is the wild card, the Scott Boras wildcard, this will be the key to Brian Cashman's offseason. What to do about Alex.
Posada and Mariano are in a position with the team where they can basically name their price, especially Posada because there is no internal options at catcher and he has been so valuable to us throughout the years. Same with Mo. I expect both to be paid 15 million + for the next 3 years. A-Rod is the wild card, the Scott Boras wildcard, this will be the key to Brian Cashman's offseason. What to do about Alex.
Mo is a little harder because there is a demand for him, but Posada is a completely different story.
All the big market teams out there have catchers.
If the Yanks give Posada a 2 yr 20 million dollar deal and Posada rejects it, where will he go?
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 07:10 PM
at 3/45 for Posada, I embrace the thoughts of a Molina/Nieves catchers duo. I wouldn't give Posada 3 years. The most I would consider would be a 2 year deal with an option for a third year based on games played or plate appearances. I would offer Posada 2/25 with a third year option for $12.5 million if he plays 260 games in 08 and 09.
SouthbayyankeeD
08-05-07, 07:13 PM
Since we have no say what the payroll will be...why bother?
Let the Steinbrenner family and Cashman lose sleep over it. Worry about your own financial situation.
Any way to shut this thread down...???
at 3/45 for Posada, I embrace the thoughts of a Molina/Nieves catchers duo. I wouldn't give Posada 3 years. The most I would consider would be a 2 year deal with an option for a third year based on games played or plate appearances. I would offer Posada 2/25 with a third year option for $12.5 million if he plays 260 games in 08 and 09.
I can see a 2 year 20-25 deal with a team option for a 3rd.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 07:15 PM
I can see a 2 year 20-25 deal with a team option for a 3rd.
That's what I would do. I would let him walk if he insists on a guaranteed third year. I just don't see the Yanks (even if they would be in position to be able to) ask him to take a cut.
Since we have no say what the payroll will be...why bother?
Let the Steinbrenner family and Cashman lose sleep over it. Worry about your own financial situation.
Any way to shut this thread down...???
According to you we should just shut the whole forum down because none of us have any say in anything the Yanks do.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 07:16 PM
According to you we should just shut the whole forum down because none of us have any say in anything the Yanks do.
I think there are still some people that think the Yanks have a bottomless pit of money and have no desire to cut back spending even with the evidence of the past few years.
I can see a 2 year 20-25 deal with a team option for a 3rd.
What are your options if he decides to walk?
I think there are still some people that think the Yanks have a bottomless pit of money and have no desire to cut back spending even with the evidence of the past few years.
I don't know what his problem is. All people are trying to do is have a discussion.
What are your options if he decides to walk?
Where is he walking to? Like I previously said, all the big market teams have catchers. Give me a team that can potentially sign Posada to what he would be demanding.
primetime714
08-05-07, 07:24 PM
He's not replaceable???? What have the Yankees won since he's been here???
Let him go if he wants more money and sign someone for $10 MM or less and use the rest of the money on Pitching. That's what we need more than a $30- $35 million 3Bman.
Andy
Yea cause our investments into better pitching have really worked out. Pretty much any pitcher we have signed in recent years that wasn't previously a member of this team during the championship years has not worked out. I'd much rather pay 30-35M year for a guy who is going to be an MVP candidate every year than waste more money in bust FA pitchers.
Also what pitchers do you plan to sign in FA this year? Zambrano is the only good one available and he's likely looking at 20M a year and has already said he doesn't want to play for the Yankees or in the AL. His style also suggests that he could potentially be a disaster in the AL East.
30-35M a year ON AN EXTENSION. Really isn't all that bad. Over the next 3 years we'd still have 27M coming in from Texas. So if we sign him to roughly a 4 year extension with his average salary being about 32M after the money from Texas the average amount we pay is 28M per year. IMO not bad at all for the best player in baseball.
Num2MVP
08-05-07, 07:30 PM
"The Yanks then should try to sign Michael Barrett"
Thats just a scary scary sentence.
"The Yanks then should try to sign Michael Barrett"
Thats just a scary scary sentence.
Barrett is 30 years old and had an OPS+ greater than 100 in 2004, 2005, 2006. He isn't gonna be an allstar, but he is probably a safe bet to post an OPS greater between .750 to .800 while making probably 7 million dollars
Now please explain how that is scary?
I love it when posters post stuff when they have no clue what they are talking about.
primetime714
08-05-07, 07:35 PM
Where is he walking to? Like I previously said, all the big market teams have catchers. Give me a team that can potentially sign Posada to what he would be demanding.
The Mets and the Cubs immediately come to mind. Lo Duca and Kendall are both Free Agents this offseason you really think that either team would pass up the opportunity to upgrade to Posada? The Angels could be an outside possibility as they have decent young C's but Posada would be a significant upgrade and would boost an offense that has struggled over the past couple years. I wouldn't be surprised to see a team like the Phillies jump into the bidding. Even some of the smaller market teams might be willing to sign Posada to a 2 or 3 year deal as that would be a relatively short term situation.
Even with his age if you think we're not going to have competition for a switch hitting C that is currently in the AL batting title race and play above average defense then you're out of your mind. I'm not saying we should overspend on Posada, but your idea of what he is worth is clearly warped.
The Mets and the Cubs immediately come to mind. Lo Duca and Kendall are both Free Agents this offseason you really think that either team would pass up the opportunity to upgrade to Posada?
The Mets would rather resign LoDuca on the cheap and go upgrade their rotation (Zambrano) or outfield (Hunter, Jones, etc) with the saved money. Their problem is not catching. They actually like LoDuca.
The Angels could be an outside possibility as they have decent young C's but Posada would be a significant upgrade and would boost an offense that has struggled over the past couple years.
The Angels have Mike Napoli and Mathis, but according to you they would rather give a 37 year old Posada 10+ mil plus. I hope you have heard of those guys.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a team like the Phillies jump into the bidding. Even some of the smaller market teams might be willing to sign Posada to a 2 or 3 year deal as that would be a relatively short term situation.
They aren't gonna give Posada 13-15 mil. What makes you think that? They need starting pitching, not a starting catcher. They have given the job to Ruiz.
Even with his age if you think we're not going to have competition for a switch hitting C that is currently in the AL batting title race and play above average defense then you're out of your mind. I'm not saying we should overspend on Posada, but your idea of what he is worth is clearly warped.
I'm out of my mind. You are saying the Angels would try to get him when they have Mathis and Napoli. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Angels as a possible suitor for Posada. That is hilarious. You have absoutely no clue what you are talking about. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What are you gonna say next? Posada is going to Japan. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Num2MVP
08-05-07, 07:47 PM
"I love it when posters post stuff when they have no clue what they are talking about"
Whats his OPS+ this year looking like, whats his career avg ops+ look like? How is defense been characterized his entire career? How bout his ability to call a game?
These things coupled with the fact that in your scenario he is replacing Posada a beloved member of 4 world series teams, who would be coming off a career year. That will work out beatifully.
I love it when people snap because Michael Barrett was on their fantasy baseball team last year.
i think posada will be signed to a 2 year $25 milliion deal. next year, cervelli will be AA. hopefully by the time posada's deal is up, he will be ready to take over.
"I love it when posters post stuff when they have no clue what they are talking about"
Whats his OPS+ this year looking like, whats his career avg ops+ look like? How is defense been characterized his entire career? How bout his ability to call a game?
These things coupled with the fact that in your scenario he is replacing Posada a beloved member of 4 world series teams, who would be coming off a career year. That will work out beatifully.
I love it when people snap because Michael Barrett was on their fantasy baseball team last year.
If he wants to sign a 2 yr 20-25 mil dollar deal with a team option for a 3rd, then I can see something getting done. But if he is looking for something 3yrs/45mil, then the Yanks have to look elsewhere. And Barrett is a solid alternative. He isn't gonna be an allstar, but he isn't gonna cost you a lot and he will probably post an OPS of about .750 to .800
jeterismyhomeboy
08-05-07, 07:51 PM
The Yankees will not be subjected to the luxury tax in 2009 (and ? years beyond) because of the new stadium. Because of the amount of money the team is putting in, the MLB is giving them a pass on luxury tax. So actually, the 2009 Yankees payroll can be very big without issue. But that's not the point.
Pick up Andy's option (unless you want 3 rookies starting, and even if they're all as talented as Phil, he's had normal rookie pains), keep Moose, give Wang 6 or 7MM and Cano the same. Pick up Abreu's option, sign Mo for 22MM/2yrs (with year 3 option), JoPo for 25MM/2yrs (with year 3 option), and extend A-Rod to 29MM for four years (bonuses coming up to 32MM). The key isn't whether the Yankees are better or worse without A-Rod, but whether the team really wants him playing for an AL opponent. I think Cashman would rather extend Pavano than see A-Rod playing for the Angels (both are nightmarish, to be sure).
Move Damon in the offseason. Why is this almost guaranteed to work? Because Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones will be looking for big paydays, and getting Damon (with the condition that he goes on the DL at some point) is a better bargain than shelling out too many years and too much money for either of those options. The team that will get Damon will probably have him for two years at 13MM (or less). That's wonderful considering the market. If he can pick it up for the last two months, he can net the Yanks something of decent value in return.
This allows Giambi to be full-time DH, Melky to be full-time CF, and Gardener or KT to be a fourth outfielder. If Damon can net a decent 1B prospect in return, they may have the answer to how to play Andy Phillips. Or, if they can get a decent catcher, they can have Po train to be a replacement and then put Po at first. Damon being gone allows for some nice roster flexibility.
If I've missed anything really important, then I apologize, and will address.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 07:57 PM
The Yankees will not be subjected to the luxury tax in 2009 (and ? years beyond) because of the new stadium. Because of the amount of money the team is putting in, the MLB is giving them a pass on luxury tax. So actually, the 2009 Yankees payroll can be very big without issue. But that's not the point.
Pick up Andy's option (unless you want 3 rookies starting, and even if they're all as talented as Phil, he's had normal rookie pains), keep Moose, give Wang 6 or 7MM and Cano the same. Pick up Abreu's option, sign Mo for 22MM/2yrs (with year 3 option), JoPo for 25MM/2yrs (with year 3 option), and extend A-Rod to 29MM for four years (bonuses coming up to 32MM). The key isn't whether the Yankees are better or worse without A-Rod, but whether the team really wants him playing for an AL opponent. I think Cashman would rather extend Pavano than see A-Rod playing for the Angels (both are nightmarish, to be sure).
Move Damon in the offseason. Why is this almost guaranteed to work? Because Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones will be looking for big paydays, and getting Damon (with the condition that he goes on the DL at some point) is a better bargain than shelling out too many years and too much money for either of those options. The team that will get Damon will probably have him for two years at 13MM (or less). That's wonderful considering the market. If he can pick it up for the last two months, he can net the Yanks something of decent value in return.
This allows Giambi to be full-time DH, Melky to be full-time CF, and Gardener or KT to be a fourth outfielder. If Damon can net a decent 1B prospect in return, they may have the answer to how to play Andy Phillips. Or, if they can get a decent catcher, they can have Po train to be a replacement and then put Po at first. Damon being gone allows for some nice roster flexibility.
If I've missed anything really important, then I apologize, and will address.
That's not correct. The stadium allows the Yanks do deduct the costs of the construction from their revenue sharing money so it will be less. However it doesn't eliminate it.
jeterismyhomeboy
08-05-07, 08:02 PM
That's not correct. The stadium allows the Yanks do deduct the costs of the construction from their revenue sharing money so it will be less. However it doesn't eliminate it.
Sorry! But 800 million has to count for at least a year, right?
primetime714
08-05-07, 08:04 PM
The Mets would rather resign LoDuca on the cheap and go upgrade their rotation (Zambrano) or outfield (Hunter, Jones, etc) with the saved money. Their problem is not catching. They actually like LoDuca.
Never said Posada would be their top target just said they wouldn't mind upgrading from LoDuca to Posada and that if the Yankees were not offering enough that they would surely enter the bidding. LoDuca is fine but he's clearly not the player Posada is.
The Angels have Mike Napoli and Mathis, but according to you they would rather give a 37 year old Posada 10+ mil plus. I hope you have heard of those guys.
I have heard of both Mathis is struggling though and I hadn't checked Napoli's numbers until earlier this year when he was also struggling. It appears Napolis has come out of his slump and I'll admit that it was foolish to think the Angels would be interested.
They aren't gonna give Posada 13-15 mil. What makes you think that? They need starting pitching, not a starting catcher. They have given the job to Ruiz.
Everyone needs starting pitching the problem is the only guy available is Zambrano. Ruiz has been serviceable but he's certainly nothing to write home about. Plus I mean he is 28 years old and just cracked the major leagues its not like he is oozing with potential.
I'm out of my mind. You are saying the Angels would try to get him when they have Mathis and Napoli. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Angels as a possible suitor for Posada. That is hilarious. You have absoutely no clue what you are talking about. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What are you gonna say next? Posada is going to Japan. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Alright so the Angels thing was stupid on my part, I don't deny that. However you really think no one else is going to pursue Posada at the price tag of 12-15M a year on a 2-3 year deal? I mean earlier you said 2 years 20M was fair, you really believe he wouldn't get more than that? The market lately is so inflated with revenue across the league at all time high and only increasing. ARod's going to get upwards of 30M a year, you think Posada who let me say first say so I don't get bashed for this is no ARod, is going to take 1/3 of that on a 2 year deal? 3 years 30M is probably around the bare minimum.
YankeePride1967
08-05-07, 08:08 PM
Sorry! But 800 million has to count for at least a year, right?
I don't think it works that way. I think how ever much they pay that particular year is how much they can deduct. I believe the Yanks are paying it over a series of years.
Alright so the Angels thing was stupid on my part, I don't deny that. However you really think no one else is going to pursue Posada at the price tag of 12-15M a year on a 2-3 year deal? I mean earlier you said 2 years 20M was fair, you really believe he wouldn't get more than that? The market lately is so inflated with revenue across the league at all time high and only increasing. ARod's going to get upwards of 30M a year, you think Posada who let me say first say so I don't get bashed for this is no ARod, is going to take 1/3 of that on a 2 year deal? 3 years 30M is probably around the bare minimum.
Posada will have to take that because the Market for Arod is a lot bigger than Posada. He is probably the best player in baseball and in his prime. A lot of teams will lineup to sign him. Lets not forget he is a HUGE draw especially as he nears towards 700. Its not an insult to make anywhere betweent 20-25 mil for 2 years when you are 37 and 38 years old
I don't think anyone will go after Posada for 12-15 because the teams that can already have good starting catchers and would probably rather spend that money somewhere else instead of on a 37 year old catcher.
JeterRodriguezSheff
08-05-07, 08:12 PM
I would love to see our 2009 rotation all home-grown, but do you really think all 4 of those guys are going to pan out? I just don't see it, when does that EVER happen?
Well Wang and Hughes are already in the majors. Kennedy is supposed to be a sure thing but at the cost of limited upside and that just leaves Joba who should be called up for a bullpen role soon.
primetime714
08-05-07, 08:26 PM
Posada will have to take that because the Market for Arod is a lot bigger than Posada. He is probably the best player in baseball and in his prime. A lot of teams will lineup to sign him. Lets not forget he is a HUGE draw especially as he nears towards 700.
I don't think anyone will go after Posada for 12-15 because the teams that can already have good starting catchers and would probably rather spend that money somewhere else instead of on a 37 year old catcher.
Very true on ARod. I just disagree on the interest there will be in Posada. I'm not saying a lot of teams will line up to sign him, but there will certainly be some that show some interest particularly those that lose out on Zambrano. For example I think the Mets will be interested in Posada but obviously Zambrano would be their top target and if they got him would probably bring back a lower cost option like Lo Duca. If not though I could see them interested. The Phillies need pitching but outside of a couple bullpen arms I don't see them getting much from FA (they're not getting Zambrano). That could lead them to the offensive side of the ball where they could upgrade from Ruiz at C or Rowand in CF. If the Cubs can't retain Zambrano you know they'll be spending lots of money elsewhere. Kendall is a FA and certainly no guarantee to be back. All it takes is one team to drive up the price and C's like Posada even at his age are not easy to come by.
Barrett might be a serviceable replacement but the only thing he has on Posada is age. Red flags have got to fly too with how quickly the Cubs got rid of him. They may have just been trying to appease Zambrano so he'd re-sign, but still you don't like to see that. If Posada does leave Barrett is the best option but I'd probably rather see the Yankees pay that 12-15M per for Posada. If he's demanding more though than yea I agree we should take our chances that Barrett can hold down the position for us.
dmx42soriano
08-05-07, 08:27 PM
Igawa was the biggest waste ever.
Jetfanmack
08-05-07, 10:50 PM
Igawa was the biggest waste ever.
Great post... Of course, he only makes $4 million a year, so in terms of the luxury tax, his salary isn't that big of a deal for us, at least in comparison to the countless other large salaries we have.
The years is the sticking point of Igawa. 4 and 1/2 miserable years to go.
Yankeesfan811
08-05-07, 11:30 PM
Igawa makes 4 million dollars.
that's truely the scary part of the whole situation......:eek:
Great post... Of course, he only makes $4 million a year, so in terms of the luxury tax, his salary isn't that big of a deal for us, at least in comparison to the countless other large salaries we have.
the reason i believe they went for igawa over a lilly type (not only cos lilly sucks) is that igawa's contract is far more appelaing to other teams if he does'nt cut it in NY after a year or so. this makes him easier to move.
Sorry! But 800 million has to count for at least a year, right?The stadium cost deductions have nothing to do with the salary cap ("luxury tax").
In addition to the salary-based luxury tax penalties the Yankees and other large-market teams ALSO pay a portion of their revenues to a central pool that subsidizes smaller-market teams, just like an income tax. This is revenue sharing (not "luxury tax").
So these are two completely different taxes that the Yankees pay. They *can* deduct certain kinds of expenses such as stadium costs from their taxable revenue for the revenue sharing (income tax) purposes, but not for the luxury tax (salary cap).
Just to clarify.
MaximMan121
08-06-07, 11:26 AM
Unless new ownership takes over or the value of the club and assets plummet I can't see the Yankees ever being inhibited from making a big deal if it's needed.
.....Carlos Beltran.
Hitman23
08-06-07, 12:34 PM
why should WE (the fans) worry about payroll?
Jetfanmack
08-06-07, 12:42 PM
A question I've always wondered about myself, but if our payroll starts to prevent us from getting other players that would help our team, then the payroll suddenly becomes a big deal.
DontHateOnNumber2
08-06-07, 12:59 PM
I'm trying not to worry. I would pay Alex just about anything to stay but then that would cost the rest of the team. I hope Cashman works a miracle to have everything work out.
Hitman23
08-06-07, 01:01 PM
A question I've always wondered about myself, but if our payroll starts to prevent us from getting other players that would help our team, then the payroll suddenly becomes a big deal.But when was the last time the cost of a player stopped the Yankees from acquiring that player they needed if that player was available?
But when was the last time the cost of a player stopped the Yankees from acquiring that player they needed if that player was available?
Beltran
Hitman23
08-06-07, 01:07 PM
BeltranBut see that's not a matter of the Yankees not being able to afford Beltran that is a matter of them not thinking he was worth the money the Mets were offering. There's a big difference between not being capable of paying and not wanting to pay.
But see that's not a matter of the Yankees not being able to afford Beltran that is a matter of them not thinking he was worth the money the Mets were offering. There's a big difference between being capable of paying and not wanting to pay.
Wrong, he was willing to take a discount to come to the Yankees. Cashman is even quoted as saying that we just couldn't afford him.
http://www.nj.com/weblogs/yankees/index.ssf?/mtlogs/njo_yankees/archives/2005_01.html
Newsday reports that the Yanks would have gone after Beltran harder, but pitching was their first priority. The Daily News concurs, noting that Beltran's agent called the Yanks on Saturday saying the Bronx was Beltran's ideal destination. But his asking price combined with Johnson's new extension was just too much payroll for even the Yankees to take on.
Hitman23
08-06-07, 01:19 PM
Wrong, he was willing to take a discount to come to the Yankees. Cashman is even quoted as saying that we just couldn't afford him.
http://www.nj.com/weblogs/yankees/index.ssf?/mtlogs/njo_yankees/archives/2005_01.html
That looks more like an opinion based on them not wanting to spend so much on him than it does a Cashman quote.
The Yanks do not have trouble signing anyone they need to sign. If they wanted Beltran they could have signed him. As the quote you listed says their focus was on pitching, so therefor he was not worth it.
On a side note.... how the hell do you have an article from Jan of 01 que'd up and ready to go? :lol:
That looks more like an opinion based on them not wanting to spend so much on him than it does a Cashman quote.
The Yanks do not have trouble signing anyone they need to sign. If they wanted Beltran they could have signed him. As the quote you listed says their focus was on pitching, so therefor he was not worth it.
I can't find the quote, but everyone alludes to it.
Two offseasons ago, coincidentally, the Yanks made a financial decision that they could invest in either Johnson or another high-caliber Boras free agent, Carlos Beltran. In that situation, Beltran so badly wanted to be a Yankee that Boras offered a $20 million discount from what the Mets ultimately paid and the Yanks did not budge, picking Johnson though they loved Beltran's talent.</B></I>
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12272006/sports/yankees/separate_ways_yankees_joel_sherman.htm
On a side note.... how the hell do you have an article from Jan of 01 que'd up and ready to go? :lol:
Google
That looks more like an opinion based on them not wanting to spend so much on him than it does a Cashman quote.
The Yanks do not have trouble signing anyone they need to sign. If they wanted Beltran they could have signed him. As the quote you listed says their focus was on pitching, so therefor he was not worth it.
On a side note.... how the hell do you have an article from Jan of 01 que'd up and ready to go? :lol:
Even more maddening was the revelation that Beltran would've given the Yankees a $10 million discount. All they had to do was call. Instead, Johnson's contract, worth $48 million with a two-year extension, broke the bank. One team insider said Steinbrenner finally reached his pain threshold when he realized the luxury tax would exceed $50 million.
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyNjgmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY2ODkyMzUmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk5
Hitman23
08-06-07, 01:33 PM
I can't find the quote, but everyone alludes to it.Well, alluding to it doesn't show me the Yanks could not afford it.
Well, alluding to it doesn't show me the Yanks could not afford it.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=nyy (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050111&content_id=929992&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy)
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Yankees draw the line financially </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Not even George Steinbrenner wanted to jump for Beltran and the economic ramifications his contract would have had. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">By the end of 2005, the Yankees will have paid nearly $300 million in player payroll, revenue sharing and competitive balance taxes for a single season -- a significant barrier to trying to add Beltran.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Hitman23
08-06-07, 01:37 PM
wow you're on a mission. :lol:
ok so 1 time you proved that they had an issue. I still don't worry about the payroll of a billion dollar team. I am confident the yankees can sign a free agent if they needed to.
wow you're on a mission. :lol:
ok so 1 time you proved that they had an issue. I still don't worry about the payroll of a billion dollar team. I am confident the yankees can sign a free agent if they needed to.
I just showed you that they are not an endless pit of money. Even they have their limits. Their limits are a lot higher than most teams, but they still have their limits.
why should WE (the fans) worry about payroll?
Yeah, I know the argument. It's not our money, right?
But don't we (the fans) have an interest in our teams being run well? Unnecessary or unwise salary expenditures limit our teams financial flexibility. Even for wealthy, high revenue clubs, expensive and unproductive contracts tie the hands of our GMs and keep them from making moves that can help the teams win.
Big market teams are better able to survive foolish contract spending and remain competitive, but they're not immune to the ill effects.
Do the names Pavano, Drew, Giambi, Lugo, and Farnsworth ring any bells?
Hitman23
08-06-07, 01:42 PM
I just showed you that they are not an endless pit of money. Even they have their limits.Yes, and I acknowledged it. Congrats! :2thumbs:
You know for what it's worth, I remember a day where Cash was on the radio after the Mets made the deal and he said that the Yankees didn't think Beltran was worth the money they would have had to pay paid. This is where my opinion comes from.
Either way, it's one example of the Yankees having an issue. I still don't worry about the Yankees acquiring the free agents they want.
Hitman23
08-06-07, 01:45 PM
Yeah, I know the argument. It's not our money, right?
But don't we (the fans) have an interest in our teams being run well? Unnecessary or unwise salary expenditures limit our teams financial flexibility. Even for wealthy, high revenue clubs, expensive and unproductive contracts tie the hands of our GMs and keep them from making moves that can help the teams win.
Big market teams are better able to survive foolish contract spending and remain competitive, but they're not immune to the ill effects.
Do the names Pavano, Drew, Giambi, Lugo, and Farnsworth ring any bells?So, you were against all of these players coming to the Yankees? This seems like hindsight. I mean at least you can say Farnsworth and Giambi looked like the right deal at the time.
And yes, you're right. Not my money. Do I want it spent right? Sure. But I don't get paid big bucks to make these decisions so I won't pretend to think I know more than the guys that do.
So, you were against all of these players coming to the Yankees? This seems like hindsight. I mean at least you can say Farnsworth and Giambi looked like the right deal at the time.
And yes, you're right. Not my money. Do I want it spent right? Sure. But I don't get paid big bucks to make these decisions so I won't pretend to think I know more than the guys that do.
Hindsight is valuable. It lets you see where you've been, and you can tell by Cashman's moves the past couple of years that he's been looking in the rear view mirror.
Farnsworth didn't seem like such a bad deal at the time because the money wasn't all that outrageous, but his erratic performance shouldn't be such a surprise. He's a reliever, after all. That's what they do.
But signing a 31-year-old Jason Giambi to a huge backloaded 7 year deal with a full no-trade clause should have raised a lot of red flags among the Yankee faithful. Didn't it?
Drew's contract isn't nearly as onerous, and with career average performance from him, it would be completely acceptable over a 4-year term. But the shoulder issue that appears to have completely robbed him of his power makes it look like a very poor gamble.
I'm hoping my team's GM doesn't make that kind of mistake again.
Hitman23
08-06-07, 02:14 PM
Hindsight is valuable. It lets you see where you've been, and you can tell by Cashman's moves the past couple of years that he's been looking in the rear view mirror.
Farnsworth didn't seem like such a bad deal at the time because the money wasn't all that outrageous, but his erratic performance shouldn't be such a surprise. He's a reliever, after all. That's what they do.
But signing a 31-year-old Jason Giambi to a huge backloaded 7 year deal with a full no-trade clause should have raised a lot of red flags among the Yankee faithful. Didn't it?
Drew's contract isn't nearly as onerous, and with career average performance from him, it would be completely acceptable over a 4-year term. But the shoulder issue that appears to have completely robbed him of his power makes it look like a very poor gamble.
I'm hoping my team's GM doesn't make that kind of mistake again.Giambi was, at the time, considered one of the best in the game. Coming off MVP seasons. I don't recall how many red flags were put up in Yankeeland when the news that he was coming was announced.
Yes, learn from you're mistakes. I agree. But this isn't the disagreement I have with anyone in the thread. My disagreement is where the Yankees could have a problem, financially, signing free agents they need to sign. I was given a legit example of where it was an issue, once. And yes I agree they are not a bottomless pit. However, I don't believe they are stupid, I don't believe that they will go out and pay anything for anyone, and I don't believe they will run into trouble signing players they need. Beltran wasn't a player they needed. They needed pitching and that's what they did. Beltran would have been more of icing on the cake at the time. If they needed Beltran, they probably would have made it happen.
If they needed Beltran, they probably would have made it happen.
They needed Beltran in the worse way, but they didn't make it happen. Bernie was just about done and a liability out in the outfield.
Hitman23
08-06-07, 02:22 PM
They needed Beltran in the worse way, but they didn't make it happen. Bernie was just about done and a liability out in the outfield.Well, that's your opinion. I don't agree but it's cool. I don't believe anyone knew Bernie was going to take such a harsh turn downward so quickly.
Well, that's your opinion. I don't agree but it's cool. I don't believe anyone knew Bernie was going to take such a harsh turn downward so quickly.
I think everyone knew. His offense was declining and he was probably the worst defensive CF in the majors.
MissingBillyMartin
08-06-07, 02:29 PM
I think people think the Yankees have unlimited money, though with Steinbrenner's age, uncertainity about future ownership, selling YES, it seems that the Yankees are starting to reach their limit.
Num2MVP
08-06-07, 02:35 PM
"You know for what it's worth, I remember a day where Cash was on the radio after the Mets made the deal and he said that the Yankees didn't think Beltran was worth the money they would have had to pay paid."
Well had we been able to make that move, Damon would've been most likely resigned by the Sox. So the payroll inflexibility at the time, left us stuck with that limp wristed walking calamity, that every one now wants to move for a bucket of baseballs. Hindsight and all that jazz, but it does affect the team, and our enjoyment as fans. That and the idea of a GM who couldn't sign a great player then claiming he wasn't worth the contract the next day is just shocking :)
Hitman23
08-06-07, 02:44 PM
I think people think the Yankees have unlimited money, though with Steinbrenner's age, uncertainity about future ownership, selling YES, it seems that the Yankees are starting to reach their limit.I don't claim the Yankees have endless money. I just don't think they have too much trouble signing players they need if there really is a need.
For you other guys.....all these examples of bad contracts and players that didn't work out are steering my point off course. Those bad contract exist because at the time the Yankees management believed they needed those players and they went out and did what it took to sign them. It's not anyone's fault they got injured, went into slumps, or just simply didn't work out. Why we are arguing who worked out and who didn't is beyond me.
yankswn23
08-06-07, 02:53 PM
More importantly do I buy the Ferrari or the lamborghini with the money Ill be saving.. ;)
SouthbayyankeeD
08-06-07, 02:59 PM
According to you we should just shut the whole forum down because none of us have any say in anything the Yanks do.
What???
:confused:
Where did you get that?
All I'm saying,is why are you worried about the Yankee payroll? The team has shown no inclination to stop spending on what it thinks it needs.
What???
:confused:
Where did you get that?
All I'm saying,is why are you worried about the Yankee payroll? The team has shown no inclination to stop spending on what it thinks it needs.
You wanted the thread closed. Its just a topic people are discussing.
sojosiempre
08-10-07, 02:56 PM
Hey, what happened? I'm always ready to worry. Can we do a little more worrying?
Let's take another look at things:
2008 Probable Payroll:
Positional:
C - Posada: $12-14 million*
C - Molina: $2 million*
1B - Giambi: $21 million
1B - Phillips: $ .5 million
1B - Mientkiewicz: $1.5 million*
2B - Cano: $3-4 million (arb)
SS - Jeter: $20 million
3B - Rodriguez: $16-$26 million
OF - Matsui: $13 million
OF - Damon: $13 million
OF - Abreu: $16 million*
OF - Cabrera: $ .5 million
UTIL - Duncan: $ .5 million
UTIL - Betemit: $2-3 million (arb)
Positional Talent Payroll Range: $121 - $135 million
Positional Talent Under Contract for 2008: $75.5 million
Pitching:
SP - Pettite: $16 million*
SP - Mussina: $11 million
DL - Pavano: $10 million
SP - Wang: $5-6 million (arb)
SP - Igawa: $4 million
SP - Hughes: $ .5 million
SP - Kennedy: $ .5 million
SP - Chamberlain: $ .5 million
RP - Rivera: $11-13 million*
RP - Farnsworth: $5.5 million
RP - Vizcaino: $5-6 million*
RP - Bruney: $ .5 million
RP - Britton: $ .5 million
Pitching Talent Payroll Range: $70 - 74 million
Pitching Talent Under Contract for 2008: $39 million
Total Payroll Under Contract for 2008: $114.5 million
Projected Payroll Range for 2008: $191 - $209 million
Oh well, no big savings this year...
I still think we can trade Farnsworth, Mussina and Igawa without hurting the team's performance in 2008.
Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
longtimeyankeefan
10-14-07, 03:00 PM
If you are going to pick up Abreu's ridiculous $16M option, then how can you respect the contribution that Posada makes to this team and only offer him $12-$13M?
If you are going to pick up Abreu's ridiculous $16M option, then how can you respect the contribution that Posada makes to this team and only offer him $12-$13M?
Because Abreu's option is only for 1 year. You are paying a price to only have him on the books until he is 35.
TheTinoMobile
10-14-07, 03:03 PM
Why? It's not our money.. Let Steinbrenner et al worry about it.
hugelongtermdeal
10-15-07, 11:45 AM
2009 is the year where it really all changes, next year is business as usual.
i don't see arod getting 30+ million a year, who will pay that?
The angels
BeantownYankee
10-15-07, 11:54 AM
Because Abreu's option is only for 1 year. You are paying a price to only have him on the books until he is 35.
I think they wind up renegotiating with Abreu, giving him a new contract 2 yrs 10-12 mil per with a year 3 player option.
primetime714
10-15-07, 12:11 PM
I think they wind up renegotiating with Abreu, giving him a new contract 2 yrs 10-12 mil per with a year 3 player option.
I doubt it. I think the team really wants to see where Tabata and Jackson are in terms of development. It's certianly possible that one or both of them could be ready to start in the big leagues by 2009. They also could use Shelly Duncan as a stop gap option. While Abreu had a great 2nd half I think there is still some worry about how long he'll be able to keep this play up. I mean his power vanished pretty quickly he still can hit for average and get on base, but with his age you have to figure that he may start having injury problems in the near future. I mean look at Damon, Matsui, and Giambi. Damon and Matsui both were guys that played everyday and never went on the DL and rarely had injury problems. Both this year suffered through nagging injury problems for a good part of the year. Then Giambi can't even stay healthy playing primarily at DH. I mean he was never in great condition and the steroids obviously had an impact here, but still you never know with guys getting up in their 30's. A sharp decline and/or injury problems can be just right around the corner. I don't think they'll lock themselves into a 3 year deal for Abreu and Abreu is not going to accept a 2 year deal for only a couple mil more than he'd make if his option was picked up.
primetime714
10-15-07, 12:15 PM
If you are going to pick up Abreu's ridiculous $16M option, then how can you respect the contribution that Posada makes to this team and only offer him $12-$13M?
Posada will get about that much on a 3 year deal which is fair considering Abreu is only getting the 16M on a 1 year deal and is also a couple years younger and playing a less physically demanding position than Posada. The risk involved with Abreu is considerably less.
My guess for Posada is that he gets a 3 year deal. However the team has the option to buyout that 3rd year. So what comes down to is either it is a 3 year deal at ~13M per or it is a 2 year deal deal at ~15M per when you add in roughly a 4M buyout for that 3rd year.
I think Mo will likely be looking at similar type of deal.
I think they wind up renegotiating with Abreu, giving him a new contract 2 yrs 10-12 mil per with a year 3 player option.
I dont know about that, I think we have a pretty sweet deal on Abreu as it stands right now. He still puts up decent numbers and fits very well into our lineup but I dont know if I want him at age 36 or 37 especially if Tabata can be the real deal.
i think 2009 will be the water shed year.
The Q Bomb
10-15-07, 07:49 PM
...Other than the luxury tax of course but that just effects the team profitability which remains high anyway because of YES, high attendance etc, etc.
08 will be the last year the Yankees have a huge payroll as the young pitchers come on stream with maybe a single FA bumping the value. From then on more position players should filter in to replace the older vets or possibly younger FA's are used but even then the money would be as crazy as now because of the cash we save on the starting staff.
Michael Kay recently said on his talk show that The Yankees indeed do lose money. He said he thought that was just talk but he has seen evidence that the team does operate in the red, even figuring in YES Network revenue.
I agree with Andy - it's not how much money The Yankees spend that's an issue (at least not for me) - afterall, it's their money. The troublesome thing for me as a Yankee fan is how they spend it. Spending the money for players who clearly would not be worth the cost, i.e. Jared Wright, Randy Johnson, Johnny Damon, to name a few, is unacceptable. I'm not saying these players didn't perform - some did and some didn't - but the chances to realize value from their contracts were very slim before they ever stepped on the field. If, by some miracle those players had given value for their contracts it would have been a surprise.
Spending money on the likes of Giambi, Pavano, is kind of hard to fault. I was against signing Giambi before he joined The Yanks, but you can't fault their logic - wanting to add more power to the offense and to get that impact, big moment player. They certainly could not have forseen the rapid health decline he had since coming to The Bronx (unless you factor in that the club probably knew he was a steroid guy). The biggest problem with that deal was that Giambi was a bit on the old side to sign to a contract of that length. The thing is, that was the "going rate" for those type of free agents back then. The fact that The Yankee were one of the few teams that could afford the price shouldn't be held against them.
The landscape of baseball has changed and The Yanks need to get on board with bringing in more home-grown talent to offset costs so we are not paying other teams to improve and better compete against us with our money! Other than that, I have no problem with The Yankees high payroll (except that it gives talk show hosts fodder with which to criticize us). If you are smart - you get what you pay for. I am a capitalist - I have no problem paying players for production.
Dr. Gonzo
10-15-07, 08:02 PM
Who cares about the payroll? I honestly don't get why any fans give a crap about payroll. Whether the Yankees have a 20 million dollar or a 200 million dollar payroll, tickets will still be expensive. Let the Yankees spend whatever it takes to put the best team out there.I don't care one bit.
CallOfTheCrow
10-15-07, 08:08 PM
I dont know about that, I think we have a pretty sweet deal on Abreu as it stands right now. He still puts up decent numbers and fits very well into our lineup but I dont know if I want him at age 36 or 37 especially if Tabata can be the real deal.
Plus we got Austin Jackson down on the farm too.
longtimeyankeefan
10-15-07, 08:23 PM
I doubt it. I think the team really wants to see where Tabata and Jackson are in terms of development. It's certianly possible that one or both of them could be ready to start in the big leagues by 2009. They also could use Shelly Duncan as a stop gap option. While Abreu had a great 2nd half I think there is still some worry about how long he'll be able to keep this play up. I mean his power vanished pretty quickly he still can hit for average and get on base, but with his age you have to figure that he may start having injury problems in the near future.
Abreu's lack of power numbers is what really concerns me - he has very quickly gone from being a 30HR player to a 15HR player, with that short porch in RF, he should be more able to hit far more HRs IMO, but he does not. I also am concerned about his decline in OBP this season - when his OBP was .400+, one could live with his .450 SLG, but his OPS this season barely broke 800 - not what I want from my RFer.
During his years in Philadelphia (I work in Philly), the Philly fans complained to no end about Abreu's 1) concern about his OBP; 2) lack of power numbers from a power position; and 3) questionable defense, particularly when it comes to laying his body on the line to make a play.
IMO, he is not worth $16M - his performance this year was not worth the $15M he was paid and I personally think his performance next season will likely be worse, not better. Pay the $2M buyout and use Duncan instead - we need to get another RHB in the lineup anyway.
I only care about getting Giambi off the books.
longtimeyankeefan
10-15-07, 08:56 PM
I only care about getting Giambi off the books.
How? Giambi has $26M left on his contract ($21M salary plus $5M buyout).
The only way Giambi comes off the roster is to pay the majority of his contract - either way, he remains "on the books".
If we can unload him and pay less than $16M of his contract, I will be :jaw-drop:
How? Giambi has $26M left on his contract ($21M salary plus $5M buyout).
The only way Giambi comes off the roster is to pay the majority of his contract - either way, he remains "on the books".
If we can unload him and pay less than $16M of his contract, I will be :jaw-drop:
Sorry I should have been more clearer. I didn't mean get rid of them next year, I meant I can't wait to get him off the books all together.
longtimeyankeefan
10-15-07, 10:42 PM
Sorry I should have been more clearer. I didn't mean get rid of them next year, I meant I can't wait to get him off the books all together.
I agree - still, I wouldn't mind fining a way to get him off the 2008 bench.
Metroidman
10-19-07, 06:10 PM
Only 60mil wasted in 2008 :(
Igawa
Pavano
Mussina
Giambi
Farnsworth
YANKEE MAGIC
10-19-07, 06:14 PM
There is no way I belive the Yankees lose money... creative bookeeping thats what I think Kay saw...
Spiker101
10-19-07, 07:06 PM
Only 60mil wasted in 2008 :(
Igawa
Pavano
Mussina
Giambi
Farnsworth
You never know about '08, but they combined to burn up 77 million genuine American dollars in '07. And of course there's the $18 million given to Rocket.
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:08 PM
ooops
budstinks
10-19-07, 09:21 PM
But signing a 31-year-old Jason Giambi to a huge backloaded 7 year deal with a full no-trade clause should have raised a lot of red flags among the Yankee faithful. Didn't it?
Your talking about a different era altogether.
2000 brought us Denny Neagles 5 yr - $51 m contract
Mike Mussina's 6 yr - $88.5 m contract
Ass Clown's 8 yr - $168 m contract
2001 brought us Mike Hamptons 8yr - 121 m. contract
Chan Ho Parks 5 yr - $65 m contract
Derek Jeters 10 yr - $189 m contract
A-rods 10yr - $252 m contract
Just to name a few.
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