View Full Version : Yankees Winter Meetings Thread
Wade_Taylor
12-06-06, 06:43 PM
good move by cashman, i like it
Although if he did just to Tampa its not such a big deal given that Tampa is only about 90 miles from Disney World. Regardless I think we are all going to be very thankful in a few years that Cashman did not give in to the market.
destiNY
12-06-06, 06:46 PM
Although if he did just to Tampa its not such a big deal given that Tampa is only about 90 miles from Disney World. Regardless I think we are all going to be very thankful in a few years that Cashman did not give in to the market.
I'd say we are very thankful now
yankeebot
12-06-06, 06:49 PM
Although if he did just to Tampa its not such a big deal given that Tampa is only about 90 miles from Disney World. Yeah. If he really wants to make a statement, he should go to....South Beach. That would show them. ;)
fredgmuggs
12-06-06, 06:54 PM
Yeah. If he really wants to make a statement, he should go to....South Beach. That would show them. ;) and turn off his cell phone.;)
Yankees1962
12-06-06, 07:11 PM
Rosenthal is reporting Lilly signed with the Cubs so perhaps it's true that Cashman told Lilly that the Yankees weren't interested in his services at his price tag.
ORLANDO, Fla. - The Cubs continued their off-season spending spree Wednesday, reaching preliminary agreement with free-agent left-hander Ted Lilly on a four-year, $40 million contract, FOXSports.com has learned.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6246392
Spiker101
12-06-06, 07:14 PM
Although if he did just to Tampa its not such a big deal given that Tampa is only about 90 miles from Disney World. Regardless I think we are all going to be very thankful in a few years that Cashman did not give in to the market.
$26 million posting fee for Igawa is giving in to the market, but he was better than most.
Yankees1962
12-06-06, 07:17 PM
$26 million posting fee for Igawa is giving in to the market, but he was better than most.
Funny how a few stay fixated about a posting fee regarding a pitcher that they haven't even seen him pitch yet.
Rosenthal is reporting Lilly signed with the Cubs so perhaps it's true that Cashman told Lilly that the Yankees weren't interested in his services at his price tag.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6246392
Which means Cash expressed his disinterest in him, as he knows we have signed Andy. :)
goin for 27
12-06-06, 07:51 PM
I just heard about the Yanks asking Giambi to waive his NTC, and that he declined.
Any leaks on what the deal would have been?
jbauer2485
12-06-06, 07:51 PM
Which means Cash expressed his disinterest in him, as he knows we have signed Andy. :)
Oh boy...Andy Pettitte....looks like we're a lock for the WS!
Actually, now that LA is filled with pitchers, I could see Cashman making a trade for Brad Penny. Accodring to ESPN, he's available.
Roberto Kelly
12-06-06, 08:14 PM
he said that the market is too crazy for the Yankees
...a sign of the apocolypse.
Spiker101
12-06-06, 08:23 PM
Funny how a few stay fixated about a posting fee regarding a pitcher that they haven't even seen him pitch yet.
The very fact that no one has seen him pitch makes his $10m-$12m per cost more ridiculous, not less. Paying that much for a totally unproven commodity is exactly in line with this silly off-seson.
BroadwayBomber55
12-06-06, 08:26 PM
good move by cashman, i like it
Ditto. Stay out of it, Cash. Let the other teams beat the crap each other and then pick up the pieces towards a championship while they're fighting over one another.
YankeePride1967
12-06-06, 08:28 PM
The very fact that no one has seen him pitch makes his $10m-$12m per cost more ridiculous, not less. Paying that much for a totally unproven commodity is exactly in line with this silly off-seson.
No one including anyone in the Yankee front office that made the decision to sign him?
bambam51
12-06-06, 08:30 PM
Actually, now that LA is filled with pitchers, I could see Cashman making a trade for Brad Penny. Accodring to ESPN, he's available.
The Dodgers need a bat for the middle of their order so...who could we trade for Penny?
TheInfallibleOne
12-06-06, 08:30 PM
and turn off his cell phone.;)
bad idea. once that phone goes off, george goes out and trades the entire royal flush for david wells and outbids himself 5 times for zito, giving him the same deal arod has
BroadwayBomber55
12-06-06, 08:33 PM
The Dodgers need a bat for the middle of their order so...who could we trade for Penny?
No one.
Not even Bobby Abreu. Brian Cashman pulling a Billy Beane trick by trading away a player who has 1-year left on his contract for a pitcher who is injury prone? No deal.
Melky? Over my dead body. I'm keepin' him.
Prospects? Forget about it.
bambam51
12-06-06, 08:35 PM
No one.
Not even Bobby Abreu. Brian Cashman pulling a Billy Beane trick by trading away a player who has 1-year left on his contract for a pitcher who is injury prone? No deal.
Melky? Over my dead body. I'm keepin' him.
Prospects? Forget about it.
Melky's not the type of hitter they need anyways...
They need a bat for the middle of the order. They'll try to deal Penny for a big bat but if teams are smart they'll hold out for Billingsly.
No one.
Not even Bobby Abreu. Brian Cashman pulling a Billy Beane trick by trading away a player who has 1-year left on his contract for a pitcher who is injury prone? No deal.
Melky? Over my dead body. I'm keepin' him.
Prospects? Forget about it.
This may have been a good situation to trade Sheffield. But I'm happy with what ended up happening.
Its also too bad that Giambi refuses to be traded. He could be a good fit. with LA (Nomar could go to third base)
Oh, well.
dabomb2045
12-06-06, 08:41 PM
So...who else is thrilled that we didnt waste $10 million a year on Ted Lilly??
So...who else is thrilled that we didnt waste $10 million a year on Ted Lilly??
Ooooh!! ME! ME ! ME!!! Cashman, so far is doing everything right! And I might add, the opposite of what the Red Sox are doing.
The Dodgers need a bat for the middle of their order so...who could we trade for Penny?
And what position would this big bat play in the field? RF? 3B? Want to trade either of those guys for Penny?
BroadwayBomber55
12-06-06, 08:46 PM
So...who else is thrilled that we didnt waste $10 million a year on Ted Lilly??
I'm thrilled. Ted Lilly couldnt handle NY before. What makes you think he can now when he can only go 15-14 with the jays. He will still be in the same division and get his kaboose kicked if he signed with the yankees.
shotgun_sam
12-06-06, 08:46 PM
So...who else is thrilled that we didnt waste $10 million a year on Ted Lilly??
*raises hand*
ABCBaseball
12-06-06, 08:47 PM
So...who else is thrilled that we didnt waste $10 million a year on Ted Lilly??me!!!
BroadwayBomber55
12-06-06, 08:47 PM
And what position would this big bat play in the field? RF? 3B? Want to trade either of those guys for Penney?
In my A Night at the Roxbury ego....
YES..............NO!
In Mo I Trust
12-06-06, 08:52 PM
So...who else is thrilled that we didnt waste $10 million a year on Ted Lilly??
Raises hand.
59-58, 4.60 ERA for his career.
bambam51
12-06-06, 08:52 PM
It sounds like Cashman's going to watch teams scramble and then he'll move in for the kill when teams become more desperate to fill holes.
http://www.yesnetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061206&content_id=1414888&oid=36019&vkey=4
bambam51
12-06-06, 08:55 PM
And what position would this big bat play in the field? RF? 3B? Want to trade either of those guys for Penny?
I think Penny had TJ surgery so I'm not interested in him. I'm tired of acquiring injury prone starters.
That being said, the Dodgers have set themselves up to trade from a surplus of starting pitchers and they need a big bat in the middle of the order. Interestingly, they also have 2 third baseman on their team, Laroche and Betemit.
Panamaniac42
12-06-06, 09:21 PM
:lol: @ Rotoworld
<table class="s_playerNewsTable" id="Table1" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="487"><tbody> <tr> <td>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsLeftBorder">http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</td> <td class="s_playerNewsText"> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif
The Boston Herald says little has gone on with the Manny Ramirez talks on Wednesday and that Ramirez is expected to remain with the Red Sox.
Michael Silverman says the Mariners refused to part with J.J. Putz and Adam Jones and apparently made Putz untouchable in talks. So, Putz, a soon-to-be 30-year-old reliever with a career ERA of 3.47 in 205 innings, cannot be had in trade talks, but Rafael Soriano, a soon-to-be 27-year-old reliever with a 2.89 ERA in 171 innings, is up for grabs for a No. 4 starter. Genius.
</td></tr></tbody></table>
TheInfallibleOne
12-06-06, 09:35 PM
:lol: @ Rotoworld
<TABLE class=s_playerNewsTable id=Table1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=487 border=0><TBODY><TR> <TD>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD> <TD class=s_playerNewsLeftBorder>http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif</TD><TD class=s_playerNewsText> http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif
The Boston Herald says little has gone on with the Manny Ramirez talks on Wednesday and that Ramirez is expected to remain with the Red Sox.
Michael Silverman says the Mariners refused to part with J.J. Putz and Adam Jones and apparently made Putz untouchable in talks. So, Putz, a soon-to-be 30-year-old reliever with a career ERA of 3.47 in 205 innings, cannot be had in trade talks, but Rafael Soriano, a soon-to-be 27-year-old reliever with a 2.89 ERA in 171 innings, is up for grabs for a No. 4 starter. Genius.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Lets very quickly offer Pavano and 75% of his salary paid for this guy.
OR
Lets offer Sean Henn
Dynasties R Forever
12-06-06, 09:38 PM
Which means Cash expressed his disinterest in him, as he knows we have signed Andy. :)
I hope you're right. :rockin:
bambam51
12-06-06, 09:38 PM
Phillies nab Freddy Garcia
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/16180647.htm
Dynasties R Forever
12-06-06, 09:39 PM
...a sign of the apocolypse.
Niiice!
genius-24
12-06-06, 09:43 PM
Phillies nab Freddy Garcia
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/16180647.htm
Ahhh..........NOW, I can rest for sure. NO more any White Sox pitcher rumor and NO more Lilly rumor. Thx Cash~
philleotardo
12-06-06, 09:47 PM
Phillies nab Freddy Garcia
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/16180647.htm
PHI will regret this one day
Panamaniac42
12-06-06, 09:47 PM
Lets very quickly offer Pavano and 75% of his salary paid for this guy.
OR
Lets offer Sean Henn
Hor. Ramirez and Raf. Soriano already passed their physicals, it's a done deal per rotoworld.
What a disgrace.
Yankees1962
12-06-06, 09:59 PM
The very fact that no one has seen him pitch makes his $10m-$12m per cost more ridiculous, not less. Paying that much for a totally unproven commodity is exactly in line with this silly off-seson.
You or I haven't seen him pitched, but the Yankees have....
ARoDfan4life
12-06-06, 10:06 PM
what a retarded move by the Phillies Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd... my god we could have given them Randy Johnson or Scott Proctor and Rasner and it would have been a better deal ... I mean Garcia is good but 2 top pitching prospects :eek:
kobayashimaru
12-06-06, 10:22 PM
what a retarded move by the Phillies Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd... my god we could have given them Randy Johnson or Scott Proctor and Rasner and it would have been a better deal ... I mean Garcia is good but 2 top pitching prospects :eek:
I wouldn't call Gavin Floyd a "top pitching prospect" His era in AAA is just above 5
The Yankees are considering signing Jolbert Cabrera, who has spent the last two years in Japan.
Cabrera is a career .258/.305/.362 hitter in 1,291 at-bats over seven major league seasons. After a fine first year in Japan, he slipped to .260/.315/.398 last season. If the Yankees sign him, he could receive a chance to compete for a job as a utilityman.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=mlb&id=2557
BxBomber44
12-07-06, 12:52 AM
And what position would this big bat play in the field? RF? 3B? Want to trade either of those guys for Penny?
Well this is a possible scenario - not logical but just something to discuss.
Giambi
Clippard
Penny/Lowe
Looney (Young 1st baseman)
Broxton (closer for after mo')
genius-24
12-07-06, 12:54 AM
Well this is a possible scenario - not logical but just something to discuss.
Giambi
Clippard
Penny/Lowe
Looney (Young 1st baseman)
Broxton (closer for after mo')
Loney has a very good chance of becoming better overall player then Giambi is at this age. That trade is just...
MLB.com is reporting that the Dodgers and Luis Gonzalez have agreed to terms on a one-year, $7 million contract.
It looks like the Orioles and Cardinals were given chances to go to two years, but neither did. Gonzalez's deal with the Dodgers is set to be announced Thursday. His arrival to play left field leaves James Loney without much chance of a starting job entering the season. Andre Ethier is probably going to start in right.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=mlb&id=1628
I don't know what the Dodgers are thinking, adding one old bat to block a prospect who is likely better than that bat.
JeffWeaverFan
12-07-06, 01:07 AM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=mlb&id=1628
I don't know what the Dodgers are thinking, adding one old bat to block a prospect who is likely better than that bat.
Seriously... Loney>Gonzalez. And they also signed Pierre to that 5 year deal. Thank God I don't root for that team.
Seriously... Loney>Gonzalez. And they also signed Pierre to that 5 year deal. Thank God I don't root for that team.
I just hope they are stupid enough to trade Loney for Proctor.
I guess the Manny deal is dead.
NYYMazda
12-07-06, 01:09 AM
Great non-move by Cash Money not signing Lilly. He will prove to be way overpriced and overrated.
I hope we hear some good news on Andy tomorrow.
ARoDfan4life
12-07-06, 01:10 AM
Well this is a possible scenario - not logical but just something to discuss.
Giambi
Clippard
Penny/Lowe
Looney (Young 1st baseman)
Broxton (closer for after mo')
I'd do that in a nano second ... but one thing I think Giambi has a no trade clause ...:(
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=mlb&id=2557
He's Orlando Cabrera's brother.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 03:23 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072006/sports/yankees/prepared_to_pitch_em_up_yankees_george_king.htm
Cashman talked about Zito with Boras. I am sure there will be 5 different threads started about this later in the day but well here it is.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 03:25 AM
Right-handed reliever Dustin Hermanson has drawn interest from the Yankees. Villone has until today to accept or reject salary arbitration.
Not a bad guy to look at.
And Cash tried to dump Pavano off for Sexson (nice idea).
In other developments, the Mariners gauged the Yankees' interest in first baseman Richie Sexson. To make the deal work - Sexson has $28 million for the next two seasons - the Yankees told the Mariners they would have to take the $22.95 million and two years remaining on Carl Pavano's deal. Seattle politely declined.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072006/sports/yankees/prepared_to_pitch_em_up_yankees_george_king.htm
Cashman talked about Zito with Boras. I am sure there will be 5 different threads started about this later in the day but well here it is.
I view this as a backup plan of Pettitte.
AndThenThereWasTino
12-07-06, 03:31 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072006/sports/yankees/prepared_to_pitch_em_up_yankees_george_king.htm
Cashman talked about Zito with Boras. I am sure there will be 5 different threads started about this later in the day but well here it is.
Wow you guys really never sleep. I would hate it if we signed Zito for the money that he is looking for and probably going to get. I would rather go with what we have at this point (including Igawa) then sign Zito to such a huge deal. No knock of the guy, he's a very good pitcher but I just don't think he would work out too well in NY.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 03:39 AM
Wow you guys really never sleep.
Well your awake too. :)
AndThenThereWasTino
12-07-06, 03:41 AM
Well your awake too. :)
Research paper...... and this site is the perfect thing to keep me procrastinating.;)
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 03:52 AM
Research paper...... and this site is the perfect thing to keep me procrastinating.;)
Indeed it is. It's like baseball Snood.
Yankees1962
12-07-06, 04:20 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072006/sports/yankees/prepared_to_pitch_em_up_yankees_george_king.htm
Cashman talked about Zito with Boras. I am sure there will be 5 different threads started about this later in the day but well here it is.
Somebodys blog predicted this would be a subject for discussion today based on seeing Cashman and Boras walking in together from their 4 hour meeting.
I hope some of us don't think there is really a possiblity of signing Zito. I can't see Cashman who has become a lot more fiscal responsible giving this pitcher a six year deal.
nhyankeefan
12-07-06, 04:39 AM
Somebodys blog predicted this would be a subject for discussion today based on seeing Cashman and Boras walking in together from their 4 hour meeting.
I hope some of us don't think there is really a possiblity of signing Zito. I can't see Cashman who has become a lot more fiscal responsible giving this pitcher a six year deal.
I think Cashman would consider signing Zito but the negotiations would have to be similar to Damon's last year when they signed him for a few years less than what they were asking for. But considering how crazy the market has been I doubt that will happen, especially with the Mets involved.
Yankees1962
12-07-06, 05:35 AM
I think Cashman would consider signing Zito but the negotiations would have to be similar to Damon's last year when they signed him for a few years less than what they were asking for. But considering how crazy the market has been I doubt that will happen, especially with the Mets involved.
Thankfully, somebody else is going to give him six years.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 05:37 AM
Thankfully, somebody else is going to give him six years.
Texas
Spiker101
12-07-06, 06:16 AM
You or I haven't seen him pitched, but the Yankees have....
Yeah, well, you'll forgive me if I'm not overly impressed with the Yankees scouts track record on assessing pitching talent. Weaver, Vasquez, Brown, Wright, Pavano, Johnson etc, etc. etc. .
bambam51
12-07-06, 06:19 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072006/sports/yankees/prepared_to_pitch_em_up_yankees_george_king.htm
Cashman talked about Zito with Boras. I am sure there will be 5 different threads started about this later in the day but well here it is.
Wonder if A-rod's name came up.
hmmmmmmm.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 06:27 AM
Wonder if A-rod's name came up.
hmmmmmmm.
Now I have been pretty open about how I think ARod should be traded (mostly because I am nervous about him opting out). But it seems the Dodgers and Angels are very reluctant to trade their top young prospects.
And I don't know if I would support a deal that didn't include those chips.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 06:37 AM
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061207/SPORTS01/612070412/1034/SPORTS
Getting permission to trade Alex Rodriguez was not a topic of discussion, Cashman said.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 06:40 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072006/sports/yankees/prepared_to_pitch_em_up_yankees_george_king.htm
Cashman wouldn't say if he talked to Boras about Alex Rodriguez' state of mind going into a season in which A-Rod can opt out after it's over.
"Cash is comfortable with Alex," Boras said. "It's not a topic we discuss a lot."
But it has been discussed...
Yankees1962
12-07-06, 06:56 AM
Yeah, well, you'll forgive me if I'm not overly impressed with the Yankees scouts track record on assessing pitching talent. Weaver, Vasquez, Brown, Wright, Pavano, Johnson etc, etc. etc. .
Their decisions are based on what their scouts say so I guess you'll continue to not be overly impressed until the pitchers they acquire perform better. By the way, I think the Yankees have made some changes in their scouting department so different sets of eyes are doing the scouting versus those that recommended Weaver, Vazquez, Brown, Wright, Pavano and Johnson.
bambam51
12-07-06, 07:04 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072006/sports/yankees/prepared_to_pitch_em_up_yankees_george_king.htm
Cashman wouldn't say if he talked to Boras about Alex Rodriguez' state of mind going into a season in which A-Rod can opt out after it's over.
"Cash is comfortable with Alex," Boras said. "It's not a topic we discuss a lot."
But it has been discussed...
Interesting...
Yeah, well, you'll forgive me if I'm not overly impressed with the Yankees scouts track record on assessing pitching talent. Weaver, Vasquez, Brown, Wright, Pavano, Johnson etc, etc. etc. .
There were various rationales for those deals. Everyone wanted Weaver and Vazquez at the time those trades were made. But when they soured on Weaver, they dumped him for Brown. Everyone wanted Pavano. The Tampa faction (not Cashman) wanted Wright, and George (not Cashman) wanted Johnson.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 07:45 AM
There were various rationales for those deals. Everyone wanted Weaver and Vazquez at the time those trades were made. But when they soured on Weaver, they dumped him for Brown. Everyone wanted Pavano. The Tampa faction (not Cashman) wanted Wright, and George (not Cashman) wanted Johnson.
At the point they moved both Vasquez and Weaver it was a good move as well.
BRNXBMRS
12-07-06, 07:58 AM
Their decisions are based on what their scouts say so I guess you'll continue to not be overly impressed until the pitchers they acquire perform better. By the way, I think the Yankees have made some changes in their scouting department so different sets of eyes are doing the scouting versus those that recommended Weaver, Vazquez, Brown, Wright, Pavano and Johnson.
I hope so.
MTYankee23
12-07-06, 08:01 AM
There were various rationales for those deals. Everyone wanted Weaver and Vazquez at the time those trades were made. But when they soured on Weaver, they dumped him for Brown. Everyone wanted Pavano. The Tampa faction (not Cashman) wanted Wright, and George (not Cashman) wanted Johnson.
Count me among those that really wanted Vazquez, but I can't see how anyone would have wanted the Weaver trade to go down.
Count me among those that really wanted Vazquez, but I can't see how anyone would have wanted the Weaver trade to go down.
When the trade was made in 20002, Weaver hadn't yet turned 24. He had a nasty sinker, and had a 111 ERA+ in 2000, a 109 ERA+ in 2001, a 132 ERA+ before he was traded in 2002, and a 108 ERA+ in his first half season with the Yankees. Many baseball people thought that he was on the verge of becoming a big time pitcher.
MTYankee23
12-07-06, 08:22 AM
When the trade was made in 20002, Weaver hadn't yet turned 24. He had a nasty sinker, and had a 111 ERA+ in 2000, a 109 ERA+ in 2001, a 132 ERA+ before he was traded in 2002, and a 108 ERA+ in his first half season with the Yankees. Many baseball people thought that he was on the verge of becoming a big time pitcher.
He also had a reputation for being a head case and had pitched in Detroit that entire time. I saw one of his starts when I was on a road trip that year against the Blue Jays, and you could just tell by watching him work that he was a dog. The type of guy who pitches just well enough to lose
He was almost 26 when the trade was made. Was only 7 months younger than Ted Lilly and right handed. Also, at the time the deal was made, Lilly had pitched to a 129+ in NY in just his 2nd full year as a starter.
I'm also fairly certain that Lilly was cheaper at the time, and while the 2 prospects included never amounted to anything, they might have been able to use them for other deals.
Also funny to note that Bonderman was part of that trade as well.
JL25and3
12-07-06, 08:23 AM
When the trade was made in 20002, Weaver hadn't yet turned 24. He had a nasty sinker, and had a 111 ERA+ in 2000, a 109 ERA+ in 2001, a 132 ERA+ before he was traded in 2002, and a 108 ERA+ in his first half season with the Yankees. Many baseball people thought that he was on the verge of becoming a big time pitcher.
I agree, the Weaver deal looked like a slam-dunk when they made it. They also didn't give up that much to get him: Ted Lilly and John-Ford Griffin, one of their overhyped prospects who never made it.
Betances in 2010
12-07-06, 08:42 AM
Josh Phelps - 1B/DH selected in Rule 5 Draft by Yanks from the Os.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262979.html
silverdsl
12-07-06, 08:44 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072006/sports/yankees/prepared_to_pitch_em_up_yankees_george_king.htm
Cashman wouldn't say if he talked to Boras about Alex Rodriguez' state of mind going into a season in which A-Rod can opt out after it's over.
"Cash is comfortable with Alex," Boras said. "It's not a topic we discuss a lot."
But it has been discussed...Not necessarily. Boras could be saying that he doesn't talk to Cashman a lot about Alex period. We don't know the reporter's question to Boras, but it could have been a general "Did you talk to Cashman about Alex?" Then his response is paired with the preceeding sentance to make it seem as if Boras was commenting on discussions about Alex's state-of-mind, when no such discussions might have taken place.
surge511
12-07-06, 08:48 AM
Josh Phelps - 1B/DH selected in Rule 5 Draft by Yanks from the Os.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262979.html
I like this move. There could be some potential there.
Dannman103
12-07-06, 08:53 AM
Josh Phelps - 1B/DH selected in Rule 5 Draft by Yanks from the Os.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262979.html
Nice move...still young, has upside...I like it
Roberto Kelly
12-07-06, 08:59 AM
I like this move. There could be some potential there.
He used to be a catcher too...intriguing.
StatenIslandYankee
12-07-06, 09:02 AM
Josh Phelps - 1B/DH selected in Rule 5 Draft by Yanks from the Os.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262979.htmlNow that move I like :D
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 09:05 AM
So Phelps automatically gets put on the 40 man right?
Metroidman
12-07-06, 09:06 AM
Actually he'll have to be on the 25man roster for the whole year
So I figure he'll be our 1B
He'll have to show something in ST.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 09:11 AM
Well he mashed for a bit when he was on Toronto. So that was a good get.
I wanted him instead of Tino two years ago.
StatenIslandYankee
12-07-06, 09:15 AM
He still will have to show us something during ST ... but I like this move ...
I like this move but it seems that Phelps is no master of the glove.
I think he could be a pretty good platoon-mate with Andy.
Dr. Gonzo
12-07-06, 09:17 AM
no standard ken phelps's bat joke yet, wow.
deadrody
12-07-06, 09:19 AM
Yeah, well, you'll forgive me if I'm not overly impressed with the Yankees scouts track record on assessing pitching talent. Weaver, Vasquez, Brown, Wright, Pavano, Johnson etc, etc. etc. .
I'm not sure I would ascribe any of the problems with that group to "scouting". Weaver and Vasquez were nothing more than the latest "Ed Whitson" cases that can't pitch in NY. I don't think there is a scout in the world that can predict that. In both cases, though, the damage appears to be permanent!
As far as Brown, Wright, Pavano, and Johnson, those guys all had a history with injuries and all ended up succumbing to similar injury problems. That's not "scouting", that's called weighing risk vs. reward. In each case the Yankees gambled that they would be healthy, and in each case they were wrong to some extent. I don't believe the scouts told the front office that any of those guys would be 100% healthy. Scouts would be providing information about their stuff assuming they were healthy, not the liklihood that they would BE healthy. That info, if you could even form such an opinion, would come from doctors, not scouts.
goin for 27
12-07-06, 09:25 AM
He'll have to show something in ST.
Agreed. Not a great defender, very average bat. I thought that we could have done better....
Agreed. Not a great defender, very average bat. I thought that we could have done better....
In the Rule V draft, or in the 1B search in general?
Dynasties R Forever
12-07-06, 09:33 AM
Agreed. Not a great defender, very average bat. I thought that we could have done better....
We're bargain hunters now!
ARoDfan4life
12-07-06, 10:27 AM
Ron Darling on WFAN is reporting the Astros are about to trade Tavaras and Buuckholt for John Garland ... he saids this signing is a big sign that Pettite is not returning to Houston
Spiker101
12-07-06, 10:52 AM
I'm not sure I would ascribe any of the problems with that group to "scouting". Weaver and Vasquez were nothing more than the latest "Ed Whitson" cases that can't pitch in NY. I don't think there is a scout in the world that can predict that. In both cases, though, the damage appears to be permanent!
As far as Brown, Wright, Pavano, and Johnson, those guys all had a history with injuries and all ended up succumbing to similar injury problems. That's not "scouting", that's called weighing risk vs. reward. In each case the Yankees gambled that they would be healthy, and in each case they were wrong to some extent. I don't believe the scouts told the front office that any of those guys would be 100% healthy. Scouts would be providing information about their stuff assuming they were healthy, not the liklihood that they would BE healthy. That info, if you could even form such an opinion, would come from doctors, not scouts.
You can ascribe it to scouting or inattention to detail or just bad luck but the fact remains, the Yanks haven't made a single major pitching acquisition in the past five years that's turned out to be much good. And yet, here we are again about to toss a whole bunch more money at another guy expecting this one to work out. That's practically the dictionary definition of insanity. The organization has a problem. They don't have a problem putting together an offense, but for some reason pitching has proved too big for them. What's needed is a radical change.
cmaff05
12-07-06, 10:56 AM
You can ascribe it to scouting or inattention to detail or just bad luck but the fact remains, the Yanks haven't made a single major pitching acquisition in the past five years that's turned out to be much good.
Mike Mussina?
BRNXBMRS
12-07-06, 10:57 AM
You can ascribe it to scouting or inattention to detail or just bad luck but the fact remains, the Yanks haven't made a single major pitching acquisition in the past five years that's turned out to be much good. And yet, here we are again about to toss a whole bunch more money at another guy expecting this one to work out. That's practically the dictionary definition of insanity. The organization has a problem. They don't have a problem putting together an offense, but for some reason pitching has proved too big for them. What's needed is a radical change.
By "this one" do you mean Pettitte, you have a lot of good points on the past FA pitching aquistions, but one yr for Pettitte is not a crazy idea.
YankeePride1967
12-07-06, 10:57 AM
[/QUOTE]
Mike Mussina?
or Wang.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 11:01 AM
Mike Mussina?
I said in the past five years for a reason; Moose has been here for six years. However, Moose, given his cost, has been just acceptable. I wouldn't call that deal a great one.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 11:02 AM
or Wang.[/quote]
Wang was a developed on the farm guy. He's Exhibit A in my case. He was not an acquisition.
I said in the past five years for a reason; Moose has been here for six years. However, Moose, given his cost, has been just acceptable. I wouldn't call that deal a great one.
You have to throw cost out the window. Pretend it's the 1950's. Who cared how much Whitey got paid?
Based on performance, Moose has been a stellar signing.
IMHO. :)
cmaff05
12-07-06, 11:04 AM
I said in the past five years for a reason; Moose has been here for six years. However, Moose, given his cost, has been just acceptable. I wouldn't call that deal a great one.
Four years of ace quality pitching. 2 year of injury riddled pitching, but he still gave us 150+ innings each of those years.
It wasn't a Randy Johnson Diamondbacks esque incredible deal, but it was a great deal. 14 mil a year for what he gave us? I'd say that is pretty good.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 11:05 AM
By "this one" do you mean Pettitte, you have a lot of good points on the past FA pitching aquistions, but one yr for Pettitte is not a crazy idea.
My comment came in a discussion about Igawa, but I would extend it to Andy -- IF we're talking 2/30. I can live with one year at $15 m, just to give the team a little breathing room to allow Cashman the luxury of not having to rush Hughes/Sanchez. But after the '07 season, if the Yanks return to this notion that you can buy a starting rotation, I'm going to really start screaming. You can't do it and that should be painfully obvious to Cashman of all people.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 11:06 AM
Four years of ace quality pitching. 2 year of injury riddled pitching, but he still gave us 150+ innings each of those years.
It wasn't a Randy Johnson Diamondbacks esque incredible deal, but it was a great deal. 14 mil a year for what he gave us? I'd say that is pretty good.
You say pretty good and I say acceptable. What the hell is the difference, except that maybe one of us is in a better mood at the moment.:D
Look, no way that Cash doesn't string Lilly along a bit just to make sure, unless he knows we have Andy (or, I guess, someone else via trade). That would be stupid, and Cash isn't stupid. :)
Spiker101
12-07-06, 11:11 AM
You have to throw cost out the window. Pretend it's the 1950's. Who cared how much Whitey got paid?
Based on performance, Moose has been a stellar signing.
IMHO. :)
If this was the 1950s and there was no luxury tax or revenue sharing and the Yanks could simply outbid everybody for anyone they wanted in an expanding talent pool, you'd have a point. But those days are gone. There's a lot of money floating around and it's being used to keep top players OFF the free agent market. You have to spend wisely these days. And when it comes to pitching the wise way to spend money is on the development end of the equation.
If this was the 1950s and there was no luxury tax or revenue sharing and the Yanks could simply outbid everybody for anyone they wanted in an expanding talent pool, you'd have a point. But those days are gone. There's a lot of money floating around and it's being used to keep top players OFF the free agent market. You have to spend wisely these days. And when it comes to pitching the wise way to spend money is on the development end of the equation.
OK, sure. But the Yankees can afford to spend a bit less wisely than others-being worth a billion dollars will do that for you* ;)
*making them, unless I'm mistaken, the most valuable sports team in the world. Take that football, basketball, soccer, etc. :)
TEPLimey
12-07-06, 11:22 AM
My comment came in a discussion about Igawa, but I would extend it to Andy -- IF we're talking 2/30. I can live with one year at $15 m, just to give the team a little breathing room to allow Cashman the luxury of not having to rush Hughes/Sanchez. But after the '07 season, if the Yanks return to this notion that you can buy a starting rotation, I'm going to really start screaming. You can't do it and that should be painfully obvious to Cashman of all people.
I think the fact that the Yankees extended Moose for 2 years and are looking to sign Pettitte for 1 or 2 years is proof-positive that the Yankees are NOT looking to buy a rotation. If anything, it means that Cashman is confident that Hughes and at least 1 of Clippard, Sanchez, and Betances are going to be contributors in 2008. Otherwise, he would be taking guys like Zito or looking to trade for the Zambranos of the league (although the Cubs' recent activity suggests that they will not be trading Zambrano). The old Yanks would have taken a flyer on the "names" like Zito, Lilly, etc.
I think the fact that the Yankees extended Moose for 2 years and are looking to sign Pettitte for 1 or 2 years is proof-positive that the Yankees are NOT looking to buy a rotation. If anything, it means that Cashman is confident that Hughes and at least 1 of Clippard, Sanchez, and Betances are going to be contributors in 2008. Otherwise, he would be taking guys like Zito or looking to trade for the Zambranos of the league (although the Cubs' recent activity suggests that they will not be trading Zambrano). The old Yanks would have taken a flyer on the "names" like Zito, Lilly, etc.
How many SP's in the 1998 rotation were home grown? Out of curiosity. :)
Metroidman
12-07-06, 11:34 AM
I love how people think every prospect or even 1/2 of them pan out
Hughes could become a bust. Sanchez might never make the majors
You CAN buy pitching. Just buy wisely. If we didn't have Pavano's contract on us right now I'd be saying go after Zito
I love how people think every prospect or even 1/2 of them pan out
Hughes could become a bust. Sanchez might never make the majors
You CAN buy pitching. Just buy wisely. If we didn't have Pavano's contract on us right now I'd be saying go after Zito
Me, too.And it may yet happen. We may have to eat some of Carl's contract, but so what?
You're the Yankees, you have to work on the assumption that Unit is done. That may not be true, but you have to assume that it is.
WeekendWarrior
12-07-06, 11:39 AM
Andy Pettite at any amount of money for a ONE YEAR deal makes sense for the yankees. Money is not really an object to them but inflexibility is. If they went after lilly, they are locked in on him for 4 years. Now they dont have to commit to anyone for a year, hopefully bring a hughes or sanchez into the rotation, sign an ace next year ala Bartolo Colon or Carlos Zambrano and still be able to afford one of the big free agent outfielders (Wells, Jones or Ichiro). I think if the deal is pettitte for one year as opposed to Lilly for four, it makes the most sense to go with Pettitte for one. If all works out according to plan the rotation could look like this in 2008:
Wang
Zambrano/Colon
Hughes
Mussina
Igawa
As opposed to:
Wang
Hughes
Mussina
Igawa
Lilly
Plus you have to hope that Chamberlain/Kennedy/Christian will have made strides and would be ready to be called up if someone goes down. That sets the yankees up for the long term a lot better
Spiker101
12-07-06, 11:41 AM
I think the fact that the Yankees extended Moose for 2 years and are looking to sign Pettitte for 1 or 2 years is proof-positive that the Yankees are NOT looking to buy a rotation. .
That's what I was thinking (and man was I a happy lad) until that $26 million posting fee. I've been in a bad mood since.
BRNXBMRS
12-07-06, 11:41 AM
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by BRNXBMRS
By "this one" do you mean Pettitte, you have a lot of good points on the past FA pitching aquistions, but one yr for Pettitte is not a crazy idea.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
My comment came in a discussion about Igawa, but I would extend it to Andy -- IF we're talking 2/30. I can live with one year at $15 m, just to give the team a little breathing room to allow Cashman the luxury of not having to rush Hughes/Sanchez. But after the '07 season, if the Yanks return to this notion that you can buy a starting rotation, I'm going to really start screaming. You can't do it and that should be painfully obvious to Cashman of all people.
agreed
How many SP's in the 1998 rotation were home grown? Out of curiosity. :)
Pettitte-yes
Cone-no
Wells-no
Irabu-no
El Duque-yes
Metroidman
12-07-06, 11:42 AM
Why do people care about the Posting fee?
If we signed Lilly for 4/40 itd be 4/56 for us due to the tax
26mil = NON TAXABLE and he still has the upside of Zito
Pettitte-yes
Cone-no
Wells-no
Irabu-no
El Duque-yes
El Duque is a stretch;) , but OK.
So 3/5 of the rotation was non home grown (I'd say 4/5).
Guess home grown, by itself, don't mean squat re:SP.:D
In Mo I Trust
12-07-06, 11:46 AM
Why do people care about the Posting fee?
If we signed Lilly for 4/40 itd be 4/56 for us due to the tax
26mil = NON TAXABLE and he still has the upside of Zito
The posting fee is still money, it is just cheaper money than what would be given to a FA.
24Rickey
12-07-06, 11:47 AM
Pettitte-yes
Cone-no
Wells-no
Irabu-no
El Duque-yes
How is EL Duque homegrown?
CallOfTheCrow
12-07-06, 11:47 AM
I wouldn't call El Duque home grown. He was an established professional in Cuba already.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 11:47 AM
How many SP's in the 1998 rotation were home grown? Out of curiosity. :)
The proper question is how many were free agents. Irabu, Wells and El Duque. Of the top starters of the dynasty, Pettitte was homegrown, Cone and Clemens were acquired in trade, and Wells and El Duque were free agents. So 60 percent came via the development route and two were bought.
The trouble is that era is gone. Quality starters don't make onto the free agent market any longer.
The proper question is how many were free agents. Irabu, Wells and El Duque. Of the top starters of the dynasty, Pettitte was homegrown, Cone and Clemens were acquired in trade, and Wells and El Duque were free agents. So 60 percent came via the development route and two were bought.
The trouble is that era is gone. Quality starters don't make onto the free agent market any longer.
That's a good point.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 11:50 AM
You CAN buy pitching. Just buy wisely. If we didn't have Pavano's contract on us right now I'd be saying go after Zito
Are you saying giving $17 million to Zito for 5-6 years is buying wisely.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 11:53 AM
Are you saying giving $17 million to Zito for 5-6 years is buying wisely.
Just gonn a type that. That would be buying foolishly.
In the end, I think it's a crapshoot to try to predict how most major league pitchers will perform. The scouts, the GMs, the doctors, the pitching coaches, the media, and the fans all try to make educated guesses based on history, health, statistics, any information they can get their hands on.
But there are countless situations where pitchers don't live up to their advanced billings for one reason or another, and other countless situations where they become "pleasant surprises'. All in all, I think only a minority perform the way they were expected to.
Jason Schmidt might wind up being a bust in LA, Lilly might be leader in IP in the NL, and Barry Zito might wind up on the DL in May -- it's all a crapshoot.
Even when a team winds up with a budding star from within the organization, chances are it was unexpected. Was Wang expected to be as big of a contributer as he's been? Was Andy Pettitte expected to be a #2 or #3 starter when he was signed as a youngster? Wasn't Brien Taylor supposed to be an ace? How about the Tigers' Jeremy Bonderman? I doubt the scouts thought much of him 3 years ago when he lost 19 gamesand had a 5.5 ERA....
BRNXBMRS
12-07-06, 11:56 AM
Pettitte-yes
Cone-no
Wells-no
Irabu-no
El Duque-yes
El Duque, can not be considered homegrown.
Are you saying giving $17 million to Zito for 5-6 years is buying wisely.
I would never go after Zito at anywhere near these prices because I really dont think he's that good (I'd give him a nice 4/45 contract, something like that), but I agree with his point that you Can buy pitching. Pitching does need to be developed from within to some degree, but that doesn't mean some pitching can't be bought. You just pay for quality, not mediocrity. I dont like this idea that paying for an FA pitcher is going down the same road of failure we have been down or something
Edit: While less quality starters make it to the FA market, I dont think its "over" like you say. I could easily see Santana testing free agency when he gets the chance, for example. While some players may not care about getting more money with the Yankees/Red Sox/Mets than their small market team, some do, and they will hit the market eventually
In Mo I Trust
12-07-06, 11:58 AM
The proper question is how many were free agents. Irabu, Wells and El Duque. Of the top starters of the dynasty, Pettitte was homegrown, Cone and Clemens were acquired in trade, and Wells and El Duque were free agents. So 60 percent came via the development route and two were bought.
The trouble is that era is gone. Quality starters don't make onto the free agent market any longer.
As is the era of acquiring aces (Cone) in lopsided trades.
In the end, I think it's a crapshoot to try to predict how most major league pitchers will perform. The scouts, the GMs, the doctors, the pitching coaches, the media, and the fans all try to make educated guesses based on history, health, statistics, any information they can get their hands on.
But there are countless situations where pitchers don't live up to their advanced billings for one reason or another, and other countless situations where they become "pleasant surprises'. All in all, I think only a minority perform the way they were expected to.
Jason Schmidt might wind up being a bust in LA, Lilly might be leader in IP in the NL, and Barry Zito might wind up on the DL in May -- it's all a crapshoot.
Even when a team winds up with a budding star from within the organization, chances are it was unexpected. Was Wang expected to be as big of a contributer as he's been? Was Andy Pettitte expected to be a #2 or #3 starter when he was signed as a youngster? Wasn't Brien Taylor supposed to be an ace? How about the Tigers' Jeremy Bonderman? I doubt the scouts thought much of him 3 years ago when he lost 19 gamesand had a 5.5 ERA....
Unlikely about Zito--he has never been on the DL in his entire career. :)
Unlikely about Zito--he has never been on the DL in his entire career. :)
of course it's unlikely -- that's exactly my point. It's tougher nowadays to predict what a major league starter will or won't do.
Second-guessing is the only way to go :D
The Winter Meetings are just about over, and the Yankees were especially quiet, don't you think? They had the chance to meet with Boras about Bernie and Villone, and maybe Zito; as well as get a player in the Rule V draft. Not much else, though. (I don't consider the news about Pettitte necessarily Winter Meetings progress, except that it happened DURING the meetings.)
Spiker101
12-07-06, 12:04 PM
but that doesn't mean some pitching can't be bought. You just pay for quality, not mediocrity.
But that's just the point. You can't buy quality anymore because it doesn't exist. Or at least you can't count on it being available when you need it.
The Yanks needed a quality starter this offseason, and lo and behold there was none out there, unless you want to count Mats. The only way you can count of having the pitching you need when you need it is to develop prospects. Not necessarily pitching prospects, but prospects in general. If, for example, the Yanks had a young David Wright waiting in the wings, they probably could have traded A-Rod for Zambrano, or Oswalt. And been stronger -- and cheaper in the bargain.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 12:06 PM
As is the era of acquiring aces (Cone) in lopsided trades.
Or Clemens. That's right. No more salary dumps. Everyone's got money now.
27IsNext
12-07-06, 12:06 PM
El Duque is a stretch;) , but OK.
So 3/5 of the rotation was non home grown (I'd say 4/5).
Guess home grown, by itself, don't mean squat re:SP.:D
In the post-CBA era of baseball, where consistant quality pitchers are rarely hitting the market, it means quite a lot.
But that's just the point. You can't buy quality anymore because it doesn't exist. Or at least you can't count on it being available when you need it.
The Yanks needed a quality starter this offseason, and lo and behold there was none out there, unless you want to count Mats. The only way you can count of having the pitching you need when you need it is to develop prospects. Not necessarily pitching prospects, but prospects in general. If, for example, the Yanks had a young David Wright waiting in the wings, they probably could have traded A-Rod for Zambrano, or Oswalt. And been stronger -- and cheaper in the bargain.
Quality will be out there again, maybe in lesser amounts, but it will be there. Noone is counting on it, especially the Yankees, considering how pitching-heavy their drafts have been, but I dont think we should make it an organizational strategy to ignore the FA market just because it didn't work 2 years ago or whatever
The Winter Meetings appear to be largely over.
The Pettitte talk is exciting but I was kind of hoping we would come away with something other than Josh Phelps.
Oh well.
In Mo I Trust
12-07-06, 12:10 PM
The Winter Meetings appear to be largely over.
The Pettitte talk is exciting but I was kind of hoping we would come away with something other than Josh Phelps.
Oh well.
It is nice to not be one of the teams overspending like crazy.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 12:10 PM
Edit: While less quality starters make it to the FA market, I dont think its "over" like you say. I could easily see Santana testing free agency when he gets the chance, for example. While some players may not care about getting more money with the Yankees/Red Sox/Mets than their small market team, some do, and they will hit the market eventually
It's barely possible that Santana makes it to free agent market. But when? And will the Yanks need him then, if Hugthes and Sanchez develop? And what will his price be, and can even the Yanks afford him if they've got a bunch of dead wood drawing huge paychecks?
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 12:14 PM
It's barely possible that Santana makes it to free agent market. But when? And will the Yanks need him then, if Hugthes and Sanchez develop? And what will his price be, and can even the Yanks afford him if they've got a bunch of dead wood drawing huge paychecks?
At that point what dead wood will still be under huge contracts? ARod? Jeter? Not exactly dead wood. Moose, Giambi, Pavano should all be moved on by that point.
It's barely possible that Santana makes it to free agent market. But when? And will the Yanks need him then, if Hugthes and Sanchez develop? And what will his price be, and can even the Yanks afford him if they've got a bunch of dead wood drawing huge paychecks?
Its not barely possible. If the Twins don't resign him, he is there in 2 years. I dont think its a huge likelihood, but its there. I'm not saying we wait around and hope for him, I'm saying if he is there, THAT is when we use the Yankee payroll advantage and go all out. Who cares what he costs? He's what having the most money is all about
And as NYDC said, a lot of our "dead wood" will be gone by then. I'm sure we'll have new contracts, but if we don't waste money on mediocrity there will be plenty of room for him or someone like him
I just think the FA markets are still a good option as long as they are used wisely. Which may mean they are barely used at all, but thats fine with me
Roberto Kelly
12-07-06, 12:17 PM
The Winter Meetings appear to be largely over.
The Pettitte talk is exciting but I was kind of hoping we would come away with something other than Josh Phelps.
Oh well.
Well, we did secure Raul Chavez.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 12:18 PM
The Meetings were a great success.
Addition by no action.
The Meetings were a great success.
Addition by no action.
Agreed. No action is better than throwing 4 yeasrs, $40M offer to Lilly in the WM.
The BoSox are among the finalists for Octavio Dotel. If he ends up with them and pitches well against us, there will definitely be some hard feelings.
We paid for his rehab, it would be nice if he didn't sign with our rival.
SINCE77 2
12-07-06, 12:24 PM
Unlikely about Zito--he has never been on the DL in his entire career. :)
Same could have been said for Hideki Matsui.;)
The BoSox are among the finalists for Octavio Dotel. If he ends up with them and pitches well against us, there will definitely be some hard feelings.
We paid for his rehab, it would be nice if he didn't sign with our rival.
I wish the fellow well, but hopefully not with Boston.
Here's an interesting Winter Meetings note, from Heyman at si.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/12/07/thursday.scoop/2.html):
"Joe Torre, who never comes to the Winter Meetings, is the only manager of 30 not to attend this year. Standing around a lobby in Orlando may not be as much fun as winter in Hawaii."
Guess he knew not much was going to happen in Yankeeland.
Same could have been said for Hideki Matsui.;)
Hahahahahaha
Got me.:o :D
BRNXBMRS
12-07-06, 01:01 PM
The BoSox are among the finalists for Octavio Dotel. If he ends up with them and pitches well against us, there will definitely be some hard feelings.
We paid for his rehab, it would be nice if he didn't sign with our rival.
Is he or would he be closing for the Red Sux?
Is he or would he be closing for the Red Sux?
Logically it would be him, Timlin or Okajima
CallOfTheCrow
12-07-06, 01:02 PM
Dotel would close for Boston.
Is he or would he be closing for the Red Sux?
Absolutely. They have absolutely no one right now.
And I agree, he does this, he's the biggest a-hole in baseball.
NYDCYankee
12-07-06, 01:04 PM
Absolutely. They have absolutely no one right now.
And I agree, he does this, he's the biggest a-hole in baseball.
Harsh.
I say let him. I hope he fleeces Boston. I think he might be toast.
sweet_lou_14
12-07-06, 01:05 PM
And I agree, he does this, he's the biggest a-hole in baseball.
I assume the only reason you would say such a thing is because Barry Bonds appears to be out of baseball.
bostonyankeefan
12-07-06, 01:10 PM
Absolutely. They have absolutely no one right now.
And I agree, he does this, he's the biggest a-hole in baseball.
I don't know all the details. Did we make a reasonable offer for Dotel to return? If not, I don't see the problem with him going to Boston. Otherwise, you would have to feel the same way about Damon.
Yankees1962
12-07-06, 01:11 PM
Absolutely. They have absolutely no one right now.
And I agree, he does this, he's the biggest a-hole in baseball.
Please, this is a business and fans need to accept that realization.
Dotel would close for Boston.
Let him (fail) in that role.
Please, this is a business and fans need to accept that realization.
I run a business. I still put loyalty and decency first. Dotel should, too. The Yankees paid him handsomely and waited him out; a decent man would return the favor.
Only way you don't do it, is if Boston's offer is twice or more than the second. Even then, an honorable man picks another team. $10M vs $15M, either way he is set for the rest of his life.
We shall see if he is a man of honor, or not.
PinStripesAnonymous
12-07-06, 01:30 PM
Dotel would close for Boston.
They might get Gagne too, according to the Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2006/12/lake_buena_vist.html
I assume the only reason you would say such a thing is because Barry Bonds appears to be out of baseball.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Nice :D
Harsh.
I say let him. I hope he fleeces Boston. I think he might be toast.
If we didn't bid for, say, Farns and he ended up in Boston, I would not be angry. We paid this guy to warm the bench for 5 months. He should remember that.
Please, this is a business and fans need to accept that realization.
Yep, the mistake was made by the Yanks in signing him for only one year w/ no options
In Mo I Trust
12-07-06, 01:47 PM
Yep, the mistake was made by the Yanks in signing him for only one year w/ no options
Agreed, neither side owes the other anything.
Disagree. Call me old-fashioned. :)
goin for 27
12-07-06, 01:50 PM
I love these posts...If Dotel was signing here, there would be a thread drooling at him being 100%, setting up for Mo, etc.
Boston? Clearly the guy is done.
How many times are we going to do this? :lol:
It is a business. If Boston offers him more, so be it....
VerMonsteR
12-07-06, 01:53 PM
I run a business. I still put loyalty and decency first. Dotel should, too. The Yankees paid him handsomely and waited him out; a decent man would return the favor.
Only way you don't do it, is if Boston's offer is twice or more than the second. Even then, an honorable man picks another team. $10M vs $15M, either way he is set for the rest of his life.
We shall see if he is a man of honor, or not.
Loyalty and decency are a two way street. Why isn't Cashman signing him? If he hasn't been made a reasonable offer by the Yanks then what's loyal and decent about that? Dotel should owe them nothing.
By your illogic...Damon is disloyal and indecent by turning down a reasonable extension offer by the Sox.
BeantownYankee
12-07-06, 01:58 PM
They might get Gagne too, according to the Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2006/12/lake_buena_vist.html
Theo is collecting rehabs and is going to throw them against the wall and hope one of them sticks...
smckdwn989
12-07-06, 01:58 PM
Loyalty and decency are a two way street. Why isn't Cashman signing him? If he hasn't been made a reasonable offer by the Yanks then what's loyal and decent about that? Dotel should owe them nothing.
By your illogic...Damon is disloyal and indecent by turning down a reasonable extension offer by the Sox.
Damon wasn't paid for recovering from an injury, so the example doesn't quite work. Honestly i don't think Dotel is that great, and wouldnt have a problem seeing him as Boston's closer, but that's just me.
BeantownYankee
12-07-06, 01:59 PM
Yep, the mistake was made by the Yanks in signing him for only one year w/ no options
They had him long enough last year, I would think they know something that caused them not to ask him back.
Loyalty and decency are a two way street. Why isn't Cashman signing him? If he hasn't been made a reasonable offer by the Yanks then what's loyal and decent about that? Dotel should owe them nothing.
By your illogic...Damon is disloyal and indecent by turning down a reasonable extension offer by the Sox.
No.
Dotel, now that he has finished his rehab, is looking for either a top set-up role or a closers position. Dotel could have sat out the season and gotten paid nothing or cultivated a relationship with the Yankees by accepting $2 million while rebuilding his arm strength. The Yanks probably offered him something reasonable but the best he could hope for was to be a 7th inning guy. The Yankees were very patient during his recovery phase and didn't push him to contribute until the last month of the season.
The situations cannot be compared.
Did the Red Sox pay Damon to sit on the bench for 80% of his contract while he was recovering from surgery? No, he worked his butt off for them and played through pain while getting a very reasonable salary. The Red Sox got their moneys worth and then chose to short-change him and then proclaim that he wasn't who they really wanted all along.
In Mo I Trust
12-07-06, 02:03 PM
If Dotel had recovered quicker than expected, he might have been a steal last year. He was a high risk/high reward signing, and he owes the Yankees nothing.
VerMonsteR
12-07-06, 02:04 PM
Damon wasn't paid for recovering from an injury, so the example doesn't quite work. Honestly i don't think Dotel is that great, and wouldnt have a problem seeing him as Boston's closer, but that's just me.
While the situations aren't exactly the same...they're close enough that the point has merit. What's Dotel supposed to say when offered nice $ from the Sox? "Oh no...i'm gonna have to turn you down because the Yankees had to pay me when I was hurt..then didn't think enough of me to resign me...but hey...I OWE it to them not to pitch for their rival." Ridiculous.
While many Boston fans wouldn't mind rolling the dice on Dotel for a little pen help if the price is right...I don't think you'll find any knowledgeable Sox fan that wants to count on Dotel as their full-time closer.
If Dotel had recovered quicker than expected, he might have been a steal last year. He was a high risk/high reward signing, and he owes the Yankees nothing.
Of course he doesn't "owe" us anything, I just feel that it would be a respectful move not to sign with the arch-rival of the team that paid you handsomely during your recovery phase.
Of course if Boston comes out with an outrageous offer, he should take it, but if he receives comparable offers from several teams, he might want to consider doing the right thing.
cmaff05
12-07-06, 02:06 PM
If Dotel had recovered quicker than expected, he might have been a steal last year. He was a high risk/high reward signing, and he owes the Yankees nothing.
Agreed. He wasn't like J.D. Drew who opted out of his contract in the middle of it. He honored his contract. He tried to get back as quick as he could to pitch for us. He didn't just sit around and collect his check. The Yankees knew that he wasn't going to pitch until late in the 2006 season. Dotel has to do what is best for himself.
VerMonsteR
12-07-06, 02:07 PM
No.
Dotel, now that he has finished his rehab, is looking for either a top set-up role or a closers position. Dotel could have sat out the season and gotten paid nothing or cultivated a relationship with the Yankees by accepting $2 million while rebuilding his arm strength. The Yanks probably offered him something reasonable but the best he could hope for was to be a 7th inning guy. The Yankees were very patient during his recovery phase and didn't push him to contribute until the last month of the season.
The situations cannot be compared.
Did the Red Sox pay Damon to sit on the bench for 80% of his contract while he was recovering from surgery? No, he worked his butt off for them and played through pain while getting a very reasonable salary. The Red Sox got their moneys worth and then chose to short-change him and then proclaim that he wasn't who they really wanted all along.
This is an emotional response. It's not logical and doesn't reflect reality. I understand the pain of seeing a guy like this go to one's rival team...it hurts...but it doesn't make it wrong. Should the Sox be upset that they paid Foulke a bundle to sit in a lounge chair for 2 years and now he's not going to accept arbitration??? Just be a fan and move on.
In Mo I Trust
12-07-06, 02:07 PM
Of course he doesn't "owe" us anything, I just feel that it would be a respectful move not to sign with the arch-rival of the team that paid you handsomely during your recovery phase.
Of course if Boston comes out with an outrageous offer, he should take it, but if he receives comparable offers from several teams, he might want to consider doing the right thing.
I don't see why he shouldn't do what is best for himself, if going to Boston is his best move so be it.
No.
Dotel, now that he has finished his rehab, is looking for either a top set-up role or a closers position. Dotel could have sat out the season and gotten paid nothing or cultivated a relationship with the Yankees by accepting $2 million while rebuilding his arm strength. The Yanks probably offered him something reasonable but the best he could hope for was to be a 7th inning guy. The Yankees were very patient during his recovery phase and didn't push him to contribute until the last month of the season.
The situations cannot be compared.
Did the Red Sox pay Damon to sit on the bench for 80% of his contract while he was recovering from surgery? No, he worked his butt off for them and played through pain while getting a very reasonable salary. The Red Sox got their moneys worth and then chose to short-change him and then proclaim that he wasn't who they really wanted all along.
Exactly.
Look, I'm not saying Dotel is legally bound to do anything. I am saying he is honor bound, but maybe there is no more honor is baseball.
VerMonsteR
12-07-06, 02:10 PM
Exactly.
Look, I'm not saying Dotel is legally bound to do anything. I am saying he is honor bound, but maybe there is no more honor is baseball.
How is it that he owes the Yankees anything? It's not like they're offering him a setup/closer role for respectable $$$? There are many things to be upset about in MLB...this ain't one of em.
cmaff05
12-07-06, 02:11 PM
Exactly.
Look, I'm not saying Dotel is legally bound to do anything. I am saying he is honor bound, but maybe there is no more honor is baseball.
Perhaps. But he's doing what is best for himself and his family by taking the most money he can. I don't see how you can fault him for that. This may be his last major payday.
I don't see why he shouldn't do what is best for himself, if going to Boston is his best move so be it.
Between this and the Frank Thomas signing, it would appear that few people in baseball take the concept of loyalty very seriously. Granted Dotel was only with the Yankees for one season, given the situation it seems like it would have been logical for him to feel some gratitude towards the team.
In Mo I Trust
12-07-06, 02:13 PM
This Dotel discussions reminds me of this thread from the summer:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=96581&highlight=Dotel
This Dotel discussions reminds me of this thread from the summer:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=96581&highlight=Dotel
Some of Dotel's quotes seem to indicate some sincere gratitude towards the Yankee's generosity. I have faith that he will do the right thing and his kids won't end up starving.
How is it that he owes the Yankees anything? It's not like they're offering him a setup/closer role for respectable $$$? There are many things to be upset about in MLB...this ain't one of em.
He's made more money in 1 year than the rest of us will make in a life time. That's not class envy, it's just the way it is.
The Yanks were extremely fair with him--not rushing him, even when Mo was hurt.
We may just have to agree to disagree, I guess.
I will say, that in an open exchange of ideas with fellow Yankees fans, I am proud to say that I didn't imply that any of you on the other side were "idiots". :)
BeantownYankee
12-07-06, 02:31 PM
Between this and the Frank Thomas signing, it would appear that few people in baseball take the concept of loyalty very seriously. Granted Dotel was only with the Yankees for one season, given the situation it seems like it would have been logical for him to feel some gratitude towards the team.
Should throw Lieber in there also
ymike673
12-07-06, 02:48 PM
Should throw Lieber in there also
The Yankees did not pick up Lieber's $7 million option (A mistake) so he signed with Philadelphia. How is that the same as Dotel?
JonSnow
12-07-06, 03:34 PM
While the situations aren't exactly the same...they're close enough that the point has merit. What's Dotel supposed to say when offered nice $ from the Sox? "Oh no...i'm gonna have to turn you down because the Yankees had to pay me when I was hurt..then didn't think enough of me to resign me...but hey...I OWE it to them not to pitch for their rival." Ridiculous.
While many Boston fans wouldn't mind rolling the dice on Dotel for a little pen help if the price is right...I don't think you'll find any knowledgeable Sox fan that wants to count on Dotel as their full-time closer.
The girl in your sig...Kari...I went to high school with her.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 05:17 PM
Its not barely possible. If the Twins don't resign him, he is there in 2 years. I dont think its a huge likelihood, but its there. I'm not saying we wait around and hope for him, I'm saying if he is there, THAT is when we use the Yankee payroll advantage and go all out. Who cares what he costs? He's what having the most money is all about
And as NYDC said, a lot of our "dead wood" will be gone by then. I'm sure we'll have new contracts, but if we don't waste money on mediocrity there will be plenty of room for him or someone like him
I just think the FA markets are still a good option as long as they are used wisely. Which may mean they are barely used at all, but thats fine with me
If the twins don't re-sign him, they trade him, and the team that acquires him will almost certainly do so with the understanding they be given a 72-hour window in which to extend him. The chances the Twins don't re-sign him, then trade him and that team doesn't extend him and Santana actually hits the FA market are not good.
As for the philosophy, "who cares how much he costs," that's how the team got into the bind it's currently in. Sign Santana to a 6-year, $20 per contract and he tears his rotator cuff on Opening Day of year one, the Yanks can forget about ever getting their luxury tax bills under control while remaining competitive.
You and NYDC are right that Cashman is on course to have most of the dead wood contracts cleared away. I just don't want him to change course.
If the twins don't re-sign him, they trade him, and the team that acquires him will almost certainly do so with the understanding they be given a 72-hour window in which to extend him. The chances the Twins don't re-sign him, then trade him and that team doesn't extend him and Santana actually hits the FA market are not good.
As for the philosophy, "who cares how much he costs," that's how the team got into the bind it's currently in. Sign Santana to a 6-year, $20 per contract and he tears his rotator cuff on Opening Day of year one, the Yanks can forget about ever getting their luxury tax bills under control while remaining competitive.
You and NYDC are right that Cashman is on course to have most of the dead wood contracts cleared away. I just don't want him to change course.
He could sign insert carp pitcher's name here and save all kinds of money. We will be carp, but George will be that much richer.
I am not saying you necessarily go nuts on the FA market, but if you can sign Santana, you sign him end of.
If the twins don't re-sign him, they trade him, and the team that acquires him will almost certainly do so with the understanding they be given a 72-hour window in which to extend him. The chances the Twins don't re-sign him, then trade him and that team doesn't extend him and Santana actually hits the FA market are not good.
As for the philosophy, "who cares how much he costs," that's how the team got into the bind it's currently in. Sign Santana to a 6-year, $20 per contract and he tears his rotator cuff on Opening Day of year one, the Yanks can forget about ever getting their luxury tax bills under control while remaining competitive.
You and NYDC are right that Cashman is on course to have most of the dead wood contracts cleared away. I just don't want him to change course.
I disagree with your first part. If the Twins trade Johan Santana, it is probably midyear of the last year of his deal. There is a very good chance that Santana at that point wants to find out what he can get in free agency, this is what players usually do when they are traded midseason in the last year of their deal (they have no real emotional connection to their new team yet, and they know the open market usually holds more for them). This is all completely completely hypothetical, but I think my guess is as good as yours (I think there is like a 30-40% chance he hits free agency, while you think it is much lower)
Your second part I agree with in most cases, however: A) Santana is the best free agent the market will see or will have seen in awhile B) He has been completely healthy the past few years. If there is any time to break out the checkbook, its this time. I'm not sure I'd do 6 years anyway. I'd go 5/100 for Johan Santana (present day dollars, this does not account for inflation). Just because something bad might happen to him, like it might happen to everyone else, isn't enough of a reason to not take the best pitcher in both leagues
The thing is that I agree with your sentiments in 95% of the cases. Santana is one of the few that I use the open market and our financial advantages for all they are worth
In Mo I Trust
12-07-06, 05:50 PM
I If there is any time to break out the checkbook, its this time. I'm not sure I'd do 6 years anyway. I'd go 5/100 for Johan Santana (present day dollars, this does not account for inflation).
He'll most likely get way more than that, if Barry Zito is able to net 6/100 this offseason, which I believe he will, Santana will break the bank. Granted, the market will be different, however baseball will most likely still be rolling in cash, and Zito is not remotely the pitcher Santana is.
He'll most likely get way more than that, if Barry Zito is able to net 6/100 this offseason, which I believe he will, Santana will break the bank. Granted, the market will be different, however baseball will most likely still be rolling in cash, and Zito is not remotely the pitcher Santana is.
Zito hasn't been signed yet, but yeah, I mostly agree. I'd go slightly higher for Santana, but not THAT much higher. I dont think too many teams would be willing to go 5/120 (present day dollars), no matter who it is. Its still a massive committment on someone who has a rotator cuff he could tear, as Spiker put out there
TheInfallibleOne
12-07-06, 06:02 PM
Zito hasn't been signed yet, but yeah, I mostly agree. I'd go slightly higher for Santana, but not THAT much higher. I dont think too many teams would be willing to go 5/120 (present day dollars), no matter who it is. Its still a massive committment on someone who has a rotator cuff he could tear, as Spiker put out there
The worst thing that can happen is that we get another Pavano on our hands.
Does anybody think that we should include a clause that if a pitcher is hurt for 365 straight days or more his contract becomes null and void? I certainly do...
BeantownYankee
12-07-06, 06:35 PM
The Yankees did not pick up Lieber's $7 million option (A mistake) so he signed with Philadelphia. How is that the same as Dotel?
Lieber could have still resigned with the Yankees for less by re-negotiating just like Moose did this year. Which is what the Yanks were hoping at the time if I remember correctly.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 07:55 PM
I disagree with your first part. If the Twins trade Johan Santana, it is probably midyear of the last year of his deal. There is a very good chance that Santana at that point wants to find out what he can get in free agency, this is what players usually do when they are traded midseason in the last year of their deal (they have no real emotional connection to their new team yet, and they know the open market usually holds more for them). This is all completely completely hypothetical, but I think my guess is as good as yours (I think there is like a 30-40% chance he hits free agency, while you think it is much lower)
Yeah, I'd put it at about 20 percent chance, maybe even a little less. Mostly because the Twins' GM is Terry Ryan and Ryan is no fool. If they determine they can't or can't afford to keep him, they'll trade him in the offseason, not at midseason, to get the most value back. And they'll be generous in giving their trading partner enough time to extend him.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 07:56 PM
The worst thing that can happen is that we get another Pavano on our hands.
Does anybody think that we should include a clause that if a pitcher is hurt for 365 straight days or more his contract becomes null and void? I certainly do...
You mean no guaranteed contracts? Sure, that's going to fly with the players union.
Yeah, I'd put it at about 20 percent chance, maybe even a little less. Mostly because the Twins' GM is Terry Ryan and Ryan is no fool. If they determine they can't or can't afford to keep him, they'll trade him in the offseason, not at midseason, to get the most value back. And they'll be generous in giving their trading partner enough time to extend him.
It's a 72 hour window, isn't it, although I think the Commissioner can extend it.
I think the Twins will find the money to re-sign him.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 08:07 PM
He could sign insert carp pitcher's name here and save all kinds of money. We will be carp, but George will be that much richer.
I am not saying you necessarily go nuts on the FA market, but if you can sign Santana, you sign him end of.
I'm not talking about signing any Hiroshima Carp pitchers. I think the Yanks have enough Japanese pitchers and the one we've got isn't so cheap anyway. Though you may have a point that a Carp pitcher might be better than any of the crap pitchers that've been on the free agent market the past three years.
Spiker101
12-07-06, 08:09 PM
It's a 72 hour window, isn't it, although I think the Commissioner can extend it.
I think the Twins will find the money to re-sign him.
Yep, yep and yep, I think they'll re-sign him too. And they'll use some of the revenue sharing dollars they'll be getting from the Yanks to do it. Irony of ironies.
IronCaballo4
12-07-06, 10:26 PM
This offseason reminds me of Hungry Hungry Hippos...teams are gobbling up any and every player at crazy rates, it seems
Octoberbaby
12-08-06, 01:16 AM
This offseason reminds me of Hungry Hungry Hippos...teams are gobbling up any and every player at crazy rates, it seems
It's like sharks having a feeding frenzy, IMO. :D
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/baseball/mlb/kansas_city_royals/16195861.htm?source=rss&channel=kansascity_kansas_city_royals
Apparently the Yankees offered a 1 year deal to John Bale, fresh from a few years with the Hiroshima Carp. Those damn Royals ended up getting him because they guaranteed 2 years.
* Brian Cashman doesn't have most of the power with the Yankees. He has all of it. The Tampa advisors were only 90 minutes away and none of them showed their faces.
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/2006/12/winter-meetings-observations.html
Sweet.
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.7 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
0